Our Journey to Calvinism...and why we're still here!

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There's a moral inability, it's not a physical inability, it's a moral inability.

00:05

So when God speaks of our inability, it's not like the blind man who can't see, it's like the child who covers his eyes and doesn't want to see.

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It's not like the deaf man who can't hear.

00:17

It's like the child who sticks his fingers out and says, la, la, la, la, la.

00:21

It's a moral unwillingness.

00:42

Welcome back to Conversations with the Calvinist.

00:44

My name is Keith Foskey, and I am a Calvinist, and I'm joined today by one of the best friends I have in the world, and good friend of the show, Richard, I'm just kidding, I know, Richard Rodin, the deacon par excellence, the man who, again, gave me my house, and I appreciate it.

01:05

Didn't give it to me, but sold it to me, and I do appreciate that I get to...

01:09

You did get a Friends and Family discount.

01:10

I did.

01:10

I got a Friends and Family discount.

01:12

I got to move into his house, and he's now living in a new house, and it's sort of that whole Three Little Pigs thing, because you're in a brick house now, and I'm in a double wide, so I do feel like when the winds come, sort of like the...

01:25

If Fiona gets spiraled up pretty good, you'll be coming to my house, that's what I'm saying.

01:28

That's right.

01:29

That's right.

01:30

Right.

01:32

But anyway, I want to talk a little bit about our journeys to Calvinism.

01:37

Now, I will say from the beginning, I've told my story several times.

01:42

In fact, if you go back to the beginning of this podcast, way back to when it was Coffee with a Calvinist, I did a five-part series called My Journey to Calvinism, and it was five 15- or 20-minute videos I did over a course of a week, and I think that's been very helpful to some people, so if you've never listened to that and you want to hear more of how I became a Calvinist and why that matters, I would encourage you to go back and listen to those.

02:11

Those are available on the Sovereign Grace Family Church YouTube page.

02:15

They're not on my new podcast page, because I didn't migrate everything over, but the playlist is there on the Sovereign Grace Family Church page.

02:23

It's all connected.

02:25

And if you're interested, like I said, I'm going to give a short synopsis today, and I wanted to hear Richard's story, because you and I both...

02:33

We both grew up in Christian homes, in the sense that we were brought to church.

02:38

Neither one of us was saved, though, as children.

02:44

You were saved as...

02:46

2001 is when I actually came to faith.

02:50

When I was nine, I had a false conversion.

02:53

We were at a Pentecostal church.

02:55

They had an evangelist.

02:56

He did the whole, do you want to go to heaven or hell thing.

02:59

I'm nine years old.

03:01

And of course, you're going to pick heaven over hell.

03:03

Yeah, and very similar.

03:04

I mean, I got baptized at eight.

03:05

I was baptized again at 12.

03:08

So there were all these things that happened, but I didn't really come to faith until I was 19.

03:13

You were 21.

03:15

You were, interestingly enough, you were one of the first people to really challenge me on some doctrinal things.

03:23

We were riding in a bread truck together.

03:25

Right.

03:25

I was training you to be a bread man.

03:27

Yes.

03:27

Right.

03:27

Which I did not become a bread man, by the grace of God.

03:31

And you are no longer a bread man.

03:32

You are now...

03:33

A little dead man.

03:34

My kids call him the muffin man.

03:36

That's right.

03:36

Because every once in a while, he'll bring us a box of still good, but yet expired...

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Just out of date muffins I picked up, but this stuff's got enough preservatives in it.

03:46

It's good well beyond the...

03:48

That's right.

03:49

That's right.

03:49

It's going to last forever.

03:50

So we...

03:51

Like I said, my kids call you the muffin man, but yes, we were in a bread truck and we were talking about once saved, always saved, eternal security, because at that point, I didn't even really believe in that doctrine, because I wasn't brought up Baptist.

04:02

I wasn't brought up really with understanding the scriptures in that way, and had not even really been challenged on that.

04:09

And you challenged me, and I remember that began sort of a movement in my life towards sort of looking at the scriptures a little closer and examining my conclusions.

04:21

So I give you credit not only as a friend, but as an instrument of God's sanctification in my life.

04:29

So right there.

04:30

All right.

04:31

Okay.

04:31

And interestingly enough, at that point in time, I wasn't yet a Calvinist either, but yet I was holding to a very Calvinist doctrine.

04:38

Yeah, you were holding to eternal security, which Calvinists would call perseverance of the saints.

04:43

Yeah.

04:44

So anyway, go ahead.

04:46

I just want to make...

04:47

You said perservation.

04:48

I started to say preservation of the saints, but it came out perservation, and it didn't...

04:54

I just want you to know, I wanted to let it go, but I couldn't.

05:00

And it won't get edited out later, because he's just that nice to me.

05:04

It's the perservation from now on.

05:08

We're going to believe in total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and the perservation of the saints.

05:15

Good gracious.

05:16

Listen, folks, I'd run my route today.

05:18

I didn't take a day off.

05:19

I've run my route, and he calls me, and I've come in after work.

05:23

So give me some grace here.

05:24

Hey, that reminds me.

05:26

I will tell the audience this.

05:27

We're doing the show today, which is Tuesday the 15th.

05:32

I'm sorry, Thursday the 15th.

05:34

My baby is not yet born yet.

05:36

This show will probably go after.

05:38

We're recording this early.

05:39

You came in as a nice friend to me to help me record a show that could go out after the baby's born, because I'm going to be busy.

05:44

I have some babies here.

05:45

So hopefully everything will go good with that, but those of you who are watching this after the baby's born, there may be some shows that come out that are prerecorded, and that's this one, and I do appreciate Richard coming in with his extra special clean t-shirt to help me record today's show.

06:05

So tell me the story, in a nutshell, of how you went from being a Southern Baptist, normal, I guess a lot of people call it traditional Southern Baptist, even though we would say the original Southern Baptists were Calvinistic.

06:21

But how did you go from being a Southern Baptist that didn't believe in predestination to where you are now? What were the steps God used to lead you there? Well, I wasn't really exposed to Calvinism a whole lot.

06:38

So from the time I started to – let me go back.

06:41

I started attending Greg Abels Baptist Church because my wife, my wife now, who I wanted to be my wife then, I was pursuing her.

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The only way her dad would let me see her was at church.

06:52

So I came to church just chasing a girl.

06:55

They call that missionary dating.

06:57

So anyway, that's what led to my conversion was attending this church.

07:02

I came to faith in this church, and it's the current church I attend now is Greg Abels Baptist Church.

07:07

But at the time, there wasn't any kind of Reformed anything in it.

07:11

So it's just your basic Southern Baptist stuff.

07:14

I became exposed to Calvinism through Hank.

07:17

Hank is your brother.

07:18

My brother.

07:19

He had adopted Reformed doctrine.

07:23

He had adopted it fully, and I had conversations with him.

07:27

He used to host like a fight night, UFC fight night at his house.

07:30

We'd all go over there.

07:31

I thought you were going to say he hosted conversations with a Calvinist.

07:33

I was like, no, he did not.

07:36

No, he hosts.

07:38

We'd have fight night at his house when UFC was just getting started really heavy on their pay-per-views and stuff.

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I mean, we were going by like UFC 25 and stuff like that.

07:46

Anyway, they're on like 300 now.

07:50

So I remember having a conversation in his kitchen, not his bathroom, his kitchen about things concerning election and predestination.

07:59

And my argument was always, since God is sovereign and he knows everything, he looked down the corridor of time, saw me choose, and therefore elected me based on that.

08:08

And of course, Hank's trying to argue the other.

08:11

And I wouldn't have none of it.

08:13

And then- And that's a very common doctrine.

08:15

It's sometimes referred to as the doctrine of prescience.

08:18

Prescience is the idea of pre-science or pre-knowledge, pre-cognition, that God knows what you're going to do.

08:26

He knows every option that you have.

08:29

He knows what option you're going to choose, and he chooses you based upon your choice of him.

08:34

Right.

08:35

That same thing I believed before becoming Calvinist.

08:37

So go ahead.

08:38

And we could, and I would also, if somebody used Romans 8 foreknowledge, that would be like my argument.

08:44

He foreknew.

08:45

He foreknew what I was going to do, therefore, a total misunderstanding of what the word actually meant.

08:52

So I was against it, and I'd have met other Calvinists who were just jerks about it.

08:59

You know, so I was- You met a Calvinist jerk? Yes.

09:01

Can you believe it or not? They're out there.

09:03

I didn't know they existed.

09:06

So because it wasn't Hank that turned me off of it completely, but those people who were just nasty about it.

09:13

I didn't want to do it.

09:14

I was just wholly against it.

09:16

And I'd attended- Wholly like WHO? Yes.

09:19

Yes.

09:19

I was completely against it.

09:20

Okay.

09:21

Completely against it.

09:22

And I didn't even, there was a class that a good friend of ours, I'll leave his name out of it just because I don't know if he wants me to use it or not, but I'd call him a seminary, a walking seminary.

09:32

I mean, he just knows, he discipled me and all that.

09:36

Great guy, but he did a little class like a couple nights against Calvinism, and I bought into what he said.

09:43

So I was pretty armed against it.

09:45

Well, fast forward to 2011.

09:49

Andy Smith comes to our church, he had a view of a call, preaches, gets voted in, he becomes our new pastor.

09:58

Real quick, just so everybody understands.

09:59

This is Andrew Smith, who is now the pastor at- At Christ Reformed Community Church in St.

10:04

Augustine.

10:05

Yes.

10:05

Okay.

10:06

And we both have a good relationship with him.

10:07

Right, right.

10:10

So he comes in and preaches his sermon.

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You know how they do, they come in, they preach a sermon, they get voted on, that's Southern Baptist way.

10:18

We voted him in.

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He's our new pastor now.

10:20

His first sermon was on John 3.

10:23

And in that sermon, I remember like it was yesterday, I was sitting on the front row to the right of the, to his left, and I was sitting, I'm to the right of the stage, chancel, whatever you want to call it.

10:35

And I remember him saying this phrase, God doesn't love everyone the same.

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And my antenna went up, I'm like, that's a Calvinist statement, I've never heard one.

10:44

So I'm already aggravated.

10:47

Because we just voted a Calvinist- Listen here, little fella.

10:50

We just voted- We're going to have a meeting.

10:51

We just voted a Calvinist into this church.

10:54

I'm already aggravated, worried.

10:56

So the very next Sunday, just being an absolute butt, I guess you could say, our Sunday school class was in the main office.

11:06

So I came into our Sunday school class, looked through the hallway, and I saw his office door was open.

11:10

So I just walked right onto his office, and I asked him straight up, are you a Calvinist? And he points to the wall, and there's a picture of Luther, Calvin, he's like, yeah.

11:22

He didn't hide it.

11:24

So we started having a conversation, and of course, it's before service and all that, so he can't go into detail.

11:29

He said, why don't we go to lunch, and we'll talk about it.

11:32

So I said, that's fine.

11:33

Okay, we'll go to lunch, and we'll have a conversation.

11:36

Now I can't remember if prior to going to lunch or after our first meeting at lunch, but I think it was prior to, for whatever reason, and it's just God's sovereignty and everything.

11:47

For whatever reason, Adam Page approaches me, out of the blue, completely, and he recommends Against Calvinism by Roger Olson, and For Calvinism by Michael Horton.

12:03

He said, just read these and see what you think.

12:07

Out of the blue.

12:08

So I got them, and it was prior to me meeting with Andy.

12:13

He said, well, go ahead and start reading some of them, and then we'll have lunch after you've read some of it.

12:17

So I read Against Calvinism, which I, even in reading it, I was thinking, even though I remember reading it, this just sounds like a lot of philosophical argument, not a lot of scripture to back it up.

12:27

And then I met with Andy, and in the conversation I had with Andy, one of the things I remember him saying that really stuck out to me before I started For Calvinism was he said, he wanted me to think about this, when it comes to Adam and Eve, is they were born, they were created perfect, and they had the ability to choose or not choose God, whereas everyone after that do not have the ability to choose God, and then keep that in mind as I go forward.

12:57

So I get into For Calvinism by Horton, and I ended up reading the whole thing, but all it took was reading about total depravity.

13:04

And once he explained that you're dead in your sins, your nature does not allow you to choose God in any way, shape, or form, so if it wasn't for God choosing you first, you're done, you ain't got a hope in the world of ever coming to faith, that's all I needed to hear to make the rest of, because once you understand total depravity, the rest of the tulip just falls into place, but total depravity is the number one thing you've got to understand.

13:29

Once you realize I can't choose God in and of myself, it's outside of my nature to do so, my simple nature prevents me from coming to Christ, outside of the Spirit doing the work of regenerating my dead spirit to life so that I can then place faith and repentance, it was over for me.

13:47

So I ended up meeting with Andy a few more times, and that's how I became, came into understanding Calvinism, and after that, for a while I was in that cage stage, because I was just, everybody needs to know this.

13:58

It's weird how when you come to understand this doctrine, doctrines of grace, it's like you're freaking out, everybody needs to know, why don't you understand this, why don't you buy into it? Well the same reason you didn't buy into it at first, you dope, stop being a jerk about it and just calm down.

14:14

But that's how, that was my journey into it, that's how I came to it, it's just Andy showing up, and having the patience to want to speak, just have a conversation with me, and not getting upset because I stormed the office on the second week there, and out of the blue for whatever reason, Adam Page offering up a couple of recommendations for some books, and through some study, that's all it took.

14:39

Now I remember, I was a Calvinist before you were, because I was a Calvinist before Andy came to Greg Ables, but I don't remember you and I ever having that conversation, maybe it was brought up a few times, I think you said to me, maybe in just passing, because we weren't as close in the mid-2000s, I mean we've become much closer in the last ten years than we were the first ten years out of school, we've been out of school for twenty-two years, twenty-four years, the first ten years we didn't really see or hang out much, but I mean we saw each other in the bread truck and a few other times, and I remember you saying things to me, that sounds Calvinistic or something, but it wasn't, you were never harsh with me, maybe because we weren't as close or anything, but I, so what year was that for you? That was 2011.

15:26

Okay, so for me it was 2004 to 2006, so it was several years before, because in 2004 I went to a church camp, it was either 2004 or 2005, I went to a youth camp, I was the speaker, and the guy heading the camp, I've told this story before, the guy heading the camp was a recently converted Calvinist, a recently convinced Calvinist, and he challenged me on the relevant texts, and he asked me, what's your position, and I gave the same thing you did, God saw what I was going to do, he made the choice, and I remember hearing, and this is, boy, it's funny, I think it was Tony Evans, but it might not be, it sounded like Tony Evans, but I used to listen to the radio, I'd listen to John McArthur, Tony Evans, you know, these guys that would come on way radio, and I remember him saying, God knows everything actually and potentially, and he knows what you're actually going to do, and what you're potentially going to do, and what's interesting now, I look back at that, and that's almost like Mullenism, it's not the same exact, it's not a one-to-one comparison, but it is interesting, I remember, and I remember thinking, that sounds right, and so my idea was God knew all the potential things Keith would do, and he also knew what Keith would actually do, and therefore, he judged me based on what I actually was going to do, and he knew what it was, right? And so, again, that was, I was pretty affirmed in that, I think I was third or fourth year in my seminary training at that point, and I felt pretty confident, until, old dude at camp, and I was the speaker, he was the host, and he just started just nailing me, what do you think about this? What do you think about this? How does this fit into your system that you've created? And what I think is, what people don't, a lot of people don't realize, when it comes to the Arminian system, is Arminianism, the opposite of Calvinism, is a system too, and when people start trying to poke holes in Calvinism, and they do, and part of the reason why I wanted to make this video today is because, you know, recently I've begun putting up short videos referring to Calvinism, a lot of them are attempting to be funny, and some of them are humorous, but they're all attempting to make a point.

17:44

A lot of people are coming out and saying, oh yeah, you know, what about this, and what about this, and they're always trying to poke holes.

17:51

Well, the holes can be poked in the other direction too, and so when we look at, that was what he did to me.

17:58

He didn't say, here's the system of Calvinism you need to believe, he said, how does your system that you have, which is this God looking down the corridor of time scenario, how does this system fit into this? You know, how does God look down the corridor of time and see you do something that you can't do? I mean, think of how powerful a question that is.

18:21

If you are, if you're unable, no one can come to me, lest the Father sent me Joseph, and I will raise him up on the last day, no one can come lest the Father granted him.

18:29

If you're unable to do something, how is God looking down the corridor of time and seeing you do something you can't do? And that's a powerful, that's a hole in the dike, and again, once the hole, the rest of the dam just burst, right? And so, that was it for me, it was scripturally pulling out the pins, and the whole thing starts to fall, and again, what I wanted to do after sort of telling our stories today is I wanted to look at some of the passages that were, I remember sitting in, again I've told this story, sitting in my living room, yelling at my wife, saying, but hey, don't this sound like what Brother Jim said, don't this sound like Calvinism, you know, because I was just reading the scripture, and I did read some books, and to be honest, I read a lot of stuff against Calvinism, because I didn't want to believe it.

19:23

Right, that's why I started with against Calvinism.

19:25

In fact, over on the wall somewhere, and for those of you who don't know, this is also my book room, on that wall somewhere is a book entitled Grace, Faith, and Free Will by Robert Piccirilli.

19:37

Now, most people probably don't know that name, but it was a challenge to Calvinism, and I thought Robert Piccirilli did a good job, but his conclusion was the reason why he was opposed to Calvinism, he said, and he called himself, I think he called himself a reformed Arminian, which was a weird, that's like a, an octomoron, yeah, but what he said, and I think this is true, he said, I believe in, I believe Calvinism is wrong, because the Bible teaches you can lose your salvation.

20:18

That was his conclusion.

20:20

Now again, I disagree, but his conclusion was, and I remember thinking, this is a consistent argument.

20:31

Even though I disagree with his conclusion, if you follow his argument, this is where you end up, because you had the freedom to put yourself in, you must then therefore maintain the freedom to pull yourself back out, and that was his argument.

20:49

Now you, again, some of you out there may be anti-Calvinist, or un-Calvinist, or non-Calvinist, whatever, and you may say, well, I don't believe that's consistent.

20:57

I'm saying that's the argument he made.

20:59

Right.

21:00

Piccirilli made the argument that the consistent position must be, you can lose your salvation, and then he worked his way backwards.

21:06

Well, if I can lose my salvation, well, perseverance of the saints isn't true, and if perseverance of the saints isn't true, then irresistible grace isn't true.

21:12

So he started with, you can lose your salvation, worked his way backwards, and ultimately built a libertarian, free will argument based upon the fact that he believed you could lose your salvation.

21:25

So I said this.

21:27

I said, at least he's consistent.

21:29

He's made his argument based upon this consistent thing, but other than that, the books that probably were most influential on me outside of Scripture, and I do believe I've come to my conclusion based on Scripture, as I'm sure you do as well.

21:45

Yeah, I wanted to say before you go to the books is, I know I said I read the book by Michael Horton, but you gotta understand something about Michael Horton if you're familiar with him, where I said Roger Olson's argument was a lot of philosophical argument with very little Scripture.

21:59

Michael Horton backed up every single thing with Scripture, and one of the things I didn't mention before was, I'd spend two hours a night on this.

22:08

I would read a chapter, and I'd spend an hour or better reading a chapter of his book because I had to spend so much time going to all the Scriptures he's referencing, and he was very thorough in making sure that his argument was backed by Scripture.

22:21

So I'll make it very clear, Scripture was the reason I came to understand the doctrines of grace.

22:26

It's just I needed Michael Horton to lead me to where they were and what they meant.

22:30

Anyway, go ahead.

22:31

Sure.

22:31

No, no.

22:31

That's fine.

22:33

Chosen by God by R.C.

22:35

Sproul.

22:35

Right.

22:35

I almost brought the book in today because it's on my other shelf in there, but there's a page on it that was like slapping me in the face.

22:43

I remember the page, and it's a little chart in the book, and it says, here are the theologians that have held to the position on the will that Calvin would hold to, which is the bondage of the will.

22:56

Not that they would all hold all of Calvin's doctrines, but he was saying, these are the theologians historically who have held to this.

23:03

It was Augustine, and it was Luther, and it was Calvin, and it was Knox, and it was Spurgeon and all these guys.

23:09

He said, and here's the guys who held to the other side, and it was Pelagius, and it was Wesley, and it was guys ...

23:18

I hold Wesley in high regard, so it was not as if he was just nailing all the baddies, but Pelagius, he's typically referred to as the arch heretic Pelagius.

23:30

There were some guys on the other side, and I remember looking at that chart thinking, wow, this is something to consider.

23:36

If the theologians of the past who have been held in high regard are typically looking at this, and again, it's the will, the issue of the human will.

23:47

Martin Luther's bondage of the will, if you've never read it, it's his back and forth with Desiderius Erasmus, completely obliterates the idea of libertarianism regarding the free will.

24:00

Even if you are not a Calvinist, to hold to a libertarian free will is unbiblical, even if you're not a Calvinist, because libertarian free will basically says that the effects of the fall are essentially moot, that we have the ability in and of ourselves to choose righteousness or unrighteousness at any given point, and this is not the way the Bible describes the human will.

24:30

The Bible describes us as being slaves of sin or slaves of righteousness.

24:36

It never, ever discusses us being free in regard to our will.

24:43

So chosen by God, very important.

24:46

Right over there, I can see it, is the potter's freedom.

24:49

What's interesting, it was chosen by God, and then Norman Geisler wrote chosen but free, which was a response to R.C.

24:56

Sproul, and then James White wrote the potter's freedom, which was a response to Norman Geisler, and Norman Geisler, according to James White, said, this wasn't about you, I was responding to R.C., get away, and then there was debating Calvinism, which is right next to it.

25:13

Debating Calvinism was between James White and Dave Hunt, and that was actually given out at my seminary, to try to destroy Calvinism.

25:23

Look at this book, Dave Hunt destroys Calvinism.

25:25

He does not.

25:27

In fact, I would say he makes some of the worst arguments opposing Calvinism.

25:32

So that was the journey, if you will.

25:35

It was scripture, it was reading these books, and again, reading books opposed to it as well as you did.

25:41

You read opposing Calvinism.

25:42

I read Grace, Faith, and Free Will, as well as Norman Geisler and others who were opposing it.

25:49

And I will say this, before we even go further, and I've said this recently on a short video, I do not believe that non-Calvinists are not saved.

25:59

Some people would say just because you're not, because we were both saved before becoming Calvinists.

26:04

Right.

26:04

And so neither of us would say this is an issue of whether or not you're in the kingdom, but we would say that this makes more consistent some hermeneutical, well, I think this employs a more consistent hermeneutic.

26:23

I think this also arrives at more consistent conclusions, even though some of those conclusions are hard.

26:29

They're difficult questions, but I think those questions are difficult on both sides.

26:33

Like, for instance, the question of evil, or did God, you know, predestine evil in the same way that he predestined other things? Is God the author of evil? And of course, Calvinists would say, no, God's not the author of evil.

26:46

But whether you are a Calvinist or a non-Calvinist, I'm not going to say Arminian, because I know a ton of people are like, well, I'm not Arminian, I'm just whatever.

26:52

Whether you're a Calvinist or not, you have to address the issue of how God deals with the issue of evil, because even if you say, well, God doesn't decree evil, you still believe God has the power to thwart it, unless you believe God is impotent or you believe in open theism, which God doesn't know what's going to happen.

27:12

Either way, you've got a false God.

27:14

If you believe God knows for certain what's going to happen and can act in time to thwart that thing and chooses not to, you're still dealing with a decree.

27:25

He's decreeing to act or to allow an act to happen.

27:30

So whether you take a deterministic view or whether you take a Molinistic view or whatever, you're still saying God has made a choice here.

27:37

And so nobody can just come at the count, well, God's the author of evil in Calvinism.

27:44

No, you're still dealing with a God who is completely sovereign, unless you have a God who's not sovereign.

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And I don't know if you ever heard of the book, When Bad Things Happen to Good People, it was written by a Jewish man who said his conclusion was God just can't do anything about it.

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His conclusion was, no, no, no.

28:04

His conclusion was, that's, I think if I remember correctly, and I talked about this in my ethics class.

28:10

So forgive me if I'm a little wrong on this, I can go back and look it up after the show.

28:14

But he did, he wrote the book, When Bad Things Happen to Good People, because his son had passed away.

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And his ultimate conclusion was I can't believe in a God who would have the power to save my son and didn't.

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So I'm going to believe in a God who just didn't have the power to change it.

28:29

That was going to happen regardless.

28:31

God couldn't change it.

28:32

Therefore, that's, you are left with an impotent God.

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You're left with a God who can't change things.

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And that to me is, is, is a bridge too far.

28:43

Well, my mind goes to concerning, you know, he had lost a son.

28:48

Well, my mind goes to Job.

28:51

Job didn't have information that we have.

28:54

This conversation that happened in heaven between him and Satan.

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God offered Job up to Satan and allowed Satan to inflict him the way he did.

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And Satan inflicted him, the first time he said, you can do anything you want to him, just don't touch him.

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So he killed his whole family, took everything he had.

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And Job still worshiped.

29:16

Now, then later, they had the same conversation again.

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God offers up Job and says he's an upright and righteous man.

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And then of course, Satan says, skin for skin, let me afflict him personally and he'll curse you to your face.

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And then of course, then God allows him to just don't kill him.

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And he goes through the boils and all that stuff.

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But the whole point is.

29:37

Darrell Bock And his wife's in the background, just curse God.

29:39

John Dickerson Just curse God.

29:40

You know.

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But what does Job say to that? Job's response to that is, you're taught like a foolish woman.

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Are we supposed to accept the good from God, but not the bad? And think about the bad that he's accepting from God and he's attributing it to God.

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So to say God doesn't have anything to do with what happens in your life, whether good or bad.

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That's non-biblical.

29:59

Darrell Bock And it's so, it's sad to think that way.

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To think like the, some of these people, and I've heard preachers who would say, God can't act unless you give him permission.

30:09

What kind of God are you worshiping? If you say God can't.

30:15

John Dickerson Not the one in the Bible.

30:16

What kind of God? Darrell Bock You're talking about the God who spoke the universe into existence.

30:23

But you have some power over him? John Dickerson Exactly.

30:26

Darrell Bock That's insane.

30:27

John Dickerson Well we did, we said at the beginning we were going to look at a few passages and we're getting, we're just past the 30 minute mark of the show and I do want to look at a few passages.

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These are ones that we both would say caused us to have to step back and reevaluate what we thought.

30:42

In our introduction to Calvinism and looking at the scriptures.

30:48

So the first one we're going to look at is Romans chapter 3, beginning at verse 9.

30:58

And I don't know, can you read this from there? You want to just read it? Darrell Bock Yes, I just got to answer it quick.

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John Dickerson No worries.

31:04

No worries.

31:05

All right.

31:05

So Romans chapter 3 verse 9 says, what then are we Jews any better off? And I've checked my phone too, because again, my wife's pregnant, so you reminded me.

31:15

This is live recording folks.

31:18

So what then are we Jews any better off? Now a very quick point, the term Jews here is actually an English insertion.

31:28

That word Jews is not in the Greek.

31:30

It actually says are we any better off, but it's actually something that Paul is, he's addressing Jews and Gentiles both from chapter 1 and chapter 2.

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This really doesn't matter, but from an exegetical perspective, some of your Bibles won't say Jews.

31:42

It'll just say are we any better off.

31:43

But Paul is, of course, Jews.

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He is a Jew.

31:45

He's talking to himself.

31:46

Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all.

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For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin.

31:52

As it is written, none is righteous, no, not one.

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Now, right away, everyone would say hallelujah, amen, none is righteous.

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Only Jesus is righteous.

32:01

Only God is righteous.

32:02

There's no not one.

32:03

When the rich young ruler came to Jesus and he said good teacher, Jesus even chastised him.

32:07

He says why do you call me good? If there's none good, save God.

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But then he says no one understands, no one seeks for God.

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Right away, I remember when that really was first pointed out, do you understand what he's saying? He's saying not only is no one sinless, no one is righteous, no one is good, but no one seeks for God.

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For years, the church talked about the seeker sensitive, where all these people, and people will say it all the time.

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Oh, I have this friend and he is a God seeker.

32:43

He's just seeking for God.

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No he's not.

32:46

No, he's not.

32:47

In the way that I've described this to people, as I say, people seek the blessings of God, but they don't seek the being of God.

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They don't want the God who gives the blessings.

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In fact, for most people, heaven is only going to be heaven if God's not there, because they don't want God.

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Right.

33:04

They want what God can give them.

33:06

They want the blessings, but they don't want the being.

33:09

I remember Bill Maher, and I think he did a documentary, something called Religiosity.

33:14

Religious.

33:14

Religious.

33:15

Okay.

33:16

In it, he even admits that he prays.

33:21

There have been times where things got real bad, and he prayed to God, and in his mind, whoever that God is.

33:27

But he was looking for relief.

33:28

But he wasn't looking for the God of the relief.

33:31

He was just looking for the relief.

33:32

That's right.

33:33

So.

33:33

That's right.

33:35

So when it says no one seeks for God, this immediately, when we start stepping back to the idea of free will, is Paul saying no one does, or is he saying no one has the ability? And then when we say no one has the ability, again, stepping back and questioning what this means, we say what kind of ability? Because there's two types of ability that we have to consider.

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There is what is referred to as natural ability, or the physical ability to do something, and then the moral ability.

34:11

Like, for instance, I naturally can pick up 50 pounds, and I can't naturally pick up 400 pounds.

34:19

Right.

34:19

So there's something I can do, and there's something I can't do, based upon my physique.

34:24

I don't have the physical strength to pick up 400 pounds.

34:26

Not quite sure I can do 50.

34:28

My man here with the bread, he can pick up a lot, and that's why I call you when I have stuff heavy that needs to be moved.

34:38

But the other side of that is a moral question, and the moral question becomes, like, if someone says, can you kill a child? Physically, I can't.

34:54

But morally, I can't.

34:57

I have no desire, I have no intention, and I don't think I could do it no matter what.

35:07

I don't think I could kill a child.

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Now, I know that's a terrible example, but you understand what I'm saying.

35:12

There's a moral inability, it's not a physical inability, it's a moral inability.

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So when God speaks of our inability, it's not like the blind man who can't see, it's like the child who covers his eyes and doesn't want to see.

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It's not like the deaf man who can't hear, it's like the child who sticks his fingers and says, la, la, la, la, la.

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It's a moral unwillingness.

35:36

Does this make sense? You're basing it on the sinful nature that we've inherited from Adam.

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That sinful nature makes it where we want nothing to do with God, we're enemies of God.

35:48

That's right.

35:49

The way Sproul described it was, and I don't know if it was Sproul or it might have been another guy, but anyway, I'm attributing it to Sproul, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

35:57

But basically, I can say all day long that I can fly, but if I walk up on the roof, I'm going to demonstrate real quickly when I jump off that it's not in my nature to do so.

36:08

That's right.

36:08

I cannot fly.

36:10

Because of the fall of Adam, the sinful nature we've inherited, we're spiritually incapable of coming to God, nor do we want to, because our sin nature prevents us from even wanting anything to do with him.

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That's why we're called enemies of God.

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We are enemies.

36:28

We are hostile toward the things of God and God himself because of the sin nature we've inherited from Adam.

36:33

We can't do it.

36:35

So that's why he says no one seeks for God.

36:38

And I would go a step further, and again, we're only on one verse.

36:40

I don't know how far we're going to get today.

36:43

And maybe we are overstressing this verse, but there are other verses that say these same things.

36:47

We're dead in trespass and sin.

36:49

Ephesians 2.

36:49

Right.

36:50

John 6.

36:50

John 6 where no one seeks, or no one can come unless.

36:55

I want to, I'm not disagreeing with Sproul or you completely, but I do want to take a step back to what I was saying about natural versus moral.

37:05

Because the natural, you know, going up on the roof, jumping down, obviously that's a natural inability.

37:10

Now it is a nature thing.

37:12

It was natural nature, same thing.

37:15

But I, I can't skydive because I don't want to.

37:22

And that's where we talk about moral inability.

37:25

It's not that I can't get up and jump out of a plane with a parachute, but I ain't gonna.

37:28

Ain't nobody gonna.

37:29

You're going to have to have a lot of folk get me out of that plane because I don't want to do it.

37:34

Right.

37:35

Well, that's why I was making the connection.

37:36

Yeah, yeah.

37:36

The spiritual, your sinful nature makes it where you're incapable of coming to God.

37:42

But even if you were capable, you wouldn't want to.

37:45

That's why I was trying to make that point.

37:46

The reason why I'm stressing this, I think, is because there are guys out there, and I'm not going to mention names, but there are anti-Calvinists, those who are opposed, who would say that we have equated total depravity with what's referred to as judicial hardening.

38:01

And there is a distinction.

38:03

Total depravity is the lack of any desire to seek after God.

38:09

It is not part of our nature to do so.

38:11

Therefore, we won't.

38:12

Right.

38:12

That is a moral inability.

38:14

Judicial hardening, on the other hand, is when God gives us over to a hardened heart.

38:20

And we see that.

38:20

He does that with Israel.

38:21

We see that in Romans 11.

38:23

Talks about them being hardened.

38:24

You see it with Pharaoh.

38:24

You see it with, yeah.

38:25

And that is, that is a, that is what I said earlier, like fingers over the eyes.

38:30

That is a blinding.

38:33

Right.

38:33

And it's, it's different because it goes from the willful unwillingness to do something to the complete inability.

38:41

And you say, well, what's the difference? The difference is, is God is enacting a judgment upon a person that is even worse than the natural inability, the natural willful inability.

38:52

It becomes an actual judgment of God on that person that they, they cannot do this thing that they would not have done before.

39:01

Now they cannot at all.

39:03

And I do think there's a, I think there's a two-step process there.

39:06

And Pharaoh is an excellent example of that.

39:07

Yeah.

39:08

Yeah.

39:08

So.

39:08

Yeah.

39:08

So no one seeks for God.

39:10

All have turned aside.

39:12

Now we could argue definition of all, but we're not, for this, we would say this is universal.

39:17

But it's, and someone might say, well, these passages don't apply to every single person because this is Paul cherry picking the passage in the Psalms because these are all drawn from the Psalms.

39:30

And I have heard this argument again.

39:31

I'm trying to respond to some arguments.

39:32

I've heard Paul is cherry picking some Psalm arguments and he's just trying to make the case that all men are sinners.

39:37

By pulling these passages from the Psalms.

39:40

And I would agree in one sense that he is in a sense pulling these passages out, but he's making an argument and he's, and he's doing the same thing that any good exegete would do.

39:49

He's using the scripture to make his argument and he's saying all, and in this sense I do believe he's referring to everyone because he uses the universal negative.

39:57

He says all have turned aside together.

39:59

They have become worthless.

40:01

No one does good, not even one.

40:04

And again, when we see all, all does not always mean every single person, but when all is connected with a universal negative, no one does good.

40:14

Then we do see that it is a universal use of the term.

40:22

As I've said many times, if I said no one can ride a bike and then a little kid changing right by, I'm a liar.

40:29

So if the idea is no one does good, well that guy does good.

40:34

Well then this is a liar because it says not even one.

40:37

I had this, I had this talk with the guys that set free this morning because I said the unbeliever, according to Romans 8, I was preaching in Romans 8, teaching Romans 8, and it says that the unbeliever, the person who's in the flesh, which is an unbeliever, is unable to please God.

40:54

Isn't that a weird thought to think of? That even when an unbelieving philanthropist gives thousands of dollars to feed the hungry or to build shelters for people, that even that isn't pleasing to God because he's not doing it to glorify God.

41:09

Well, it's also in the, to quote, I forget who, it's Isaiah, our works are filthy rags.

41:18

All our good works are filthy rags.

41:21

They're filthy rags because they're tainted with the sin nature that we have.

41:24

So that's why no one does good.

41:27

No matter how good you, what you do that's good in this world is ruined by your sinful nature.

41:35

That's why it says no one does good.

41:36

It's all filthy rags, which according to the actual term, and I'll, I don't have to go there, but it's, it's, it's menstrual rags.

41:47

That's the filthy rags.

41:48

That's, that's, that's your good works.

41:51

I remember Todd Friel making a point of, you know, if Adolf Hitler was alive today and he gave you roses, you wouldn't want the roses because of what Adolf Hitler's done.

42:02

They're tainted by his actions.

42:05

I like that illustration.

42:06

That's good.

42:07

So our, our good works are tainted by our sin.

42:09

They are not good.

42:10

They're not good in the eyes of God.

42:12

Period.

42:13

It's funny too.

42:14

You know, Adolf Hitler was a painter before he was Hitler.

42:21

He was a painter and there was an episode of a TV show, it was one of these crime drama shows where one of the guys was a collector of Hitler paintings.

42:43

But he only collected them so he could burn them because he was trying to rid the world of any memory of Hitler's, of Hitler's artistic side.

42:52

Now again, that's all fiction, but it was neat that in the show, this guy collected Hitler paintings for the sole purpose of burning the paintings.

42:59

He was trying to erase them from the history.

43:01

Erase him, erase his good side, you know, his artistic side.

43:06

So anyway, yeah, and again, not, I do want to look at least one other verse, so it continues on, expressing man's sinfulness, their throat is an open grave, venom of asps, and then the last of course, it crescendos, there is no fear of God before their eyes.

43:21

The beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord.

43:23

How does someone become a person who fears the Lord? I believe it's by the work of the Holy Spirit.

43:30

And that's where I want to jump now, I want to jump to John 6.

43:33

People ask me sometimes, well, you know, who convinced you of Calvinism? And I always say Jesus, and they, you know, which is anachronistic, I'm aware, but in John chapter 6, which I am fully aware that there are people who say this has nothing to do with us, this has only got to do with the immediate audience Jesus is speaking to, this was an audience that came to him to hear him preach, and he was talking to them about their unbelief, and it doesn't have, it doesn't have application to us.

44:01

I would disagree with that, and specifically I want to point out one verse, and it's not the one most people would expect.

44:11

The one most people expect is 644 and 65, which is, no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day.

44:19

That's verse 44.

44:19

And verse 65 is, no one can come to me, this is why I said to you, no one can come to me unless it's granted to him by the Father.

44:24

I do think those are parallel passages, I do think they have to be understood together, and I do think within the whole, it does express a natural inability in man.

44:31

And I would cite, again, R.C.

44:33

Sproul's master work in Chosen by God, where he deals with these passages, as well as Potter's Freedom and others.

44:39

But this passage right here, which says, all the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me, I will never cast out.

44:52

One of my favorite preachers with the Lord now, his name was Roy Hargrave, and he was asked, he was a conference speaker at the time, well he had spoken at a conference and they did a cruise after the conference, and they had a conference on the cruise, a cruise and conference thing.

45:10

And he was asked to speak on the cruise.

45:14

And he was supposed to preach on Calvinism and Evangelism.

45:19

And he said, Calvinism and Evangelism, John 6, 37, all the Father gives me will come to me.

45:29

There's Calvinism.

45:30

And the one who comes to me, I will know why it's cast out.

45:33

There's Evangelism.

45:34

Let's go to the pool.

45:38

And I just remember laughing so hard, because he's like, he's like, it's right here.

45:42

Because it does have the dual nature of God doing something, and then us doing something.

45:51

I do think this is where a lot of people have a misconception about Calvinism, and that is the idea that there's nothing on our part to do, because God has done all the work.

46:02

And we do believe God does all the work, but it results in our doing something.

46:08

It results in us coming.

46:09

And so this text tells us, all the Father, and Jesus is speaking, he says, all the Father gives me will come to me.

46:18

Now this is right on the heels of him having just said, I'm the bread of life.

46:21

Whoever comes to me will not hunger.

46:22

Whoever believes in me will never thirst.

46:24

I said to you that you have seen me, and yet you do not believe.

46:27

Now these are people who are listening to him preach.

46:29

These are people who have followed him.

46:30

And he said, you saw me, and you do not believe.

46:34

All the Father gives me will come to me.

46:37

And he's saying, within the mass of humanity, there is a remnant, and that's the phrase the Bible tends to use, even though I added a weird syllable in there, remnant, you're too nice to say anything, but I can call myself that, there is a remnant of humanity that the Father has given to the Son, and these will come to him.

47:06

And I remember this passage so sticking out in my mind, because Jesus is saying, all the Father gives me will come.

47:13

And the natural adversative of that idea is that those the Father does not give will not come.

47:22

Darrell Bock Right.

47:23

And when it comes to election and predestination, what this verse did to me, it made me think about was, okay, it made me ask questions.

47:35

All the Father has given to me or gives me will come to me, okay, but when were they given to him? John Dickerson That's good.

47:42

That's a good question.

47:43

Darrell Bock And Ephesians 1 explains that.

47:44

John Dickerson Yes.

47:45

Darrell Bock Before the foundation of the world.

47:46

John Dickerson That's right.

47:47

Darrell Bock We put the two and two together.

47:48

So before God ever said, let there be anything, the Father gave the Son a people that the Son then comes and redeems.

47:59

And then the Spirit applies that salvation through what? Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the Word of Christ.

48:05

See God has ordained this whole thing to come together.

48:07

He can elect a chosen people, and those chosen people come to faith through our preaching of the gospel.

48:14

That's the means in which he's determined the end.

48:17

John Dickerson And that's the thing people miss.

48:19

They think, well, if God has done everything, then we don't have to do anything.

48:23

No, there is a process.

48:25

He has ordained the means to the end, and the means is what you just said, the proclamation of the gospel.

48:31

So we get to...

48:32

Darrell Bock And they forget he exists outside of time.

48:35

See he's done all this outside of time.

48:37

We're watching him glorify himself in the process in real time.

48:41

John Dickerson That's right.

48:42

That's right.

48:42

Darrell Bock That's where people get messed up, in my opinion.

48:46

John Dickerson Yeah, and you were dead in trespasses and sins in which you once walked following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience, among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind.

49:06

But God, not but you.

49:08

Darrell Bock But God, right.

49:09

John Dickerson But God.

49:10

Darrell Bock Two best words in scripture, anyway.

49:12

John Dickerson That's right.

49:12

It's God who took, you know, the analogy a lot of people think of is you're floundering in the water.

49:19

You're just about to go under.

49:21

Somebody throws you a life preserver called Jesus, and it's your job to reach out and grab the life preserver called Jesus, and as long as you hold on to him, then you'll be safe.

49:31

Darrell Bock Can I quote Waddy Bauckham here? John Dickerson Go ahead.

49:34

You can quote – Darrell Bock Dead men – John Dickerson Wait, wait, wait.

49:35

Darrell Bock Waddy Bauckham.

49:36

John Dickerson You said Waddy, and I just – Darrell Bock Waddy Bauckham here.

49:39

Can I quote Waddy Bauckham here? John Dickerson Move your head this way, because then they can't hear you.

49:43

Darrell Bock Can I quote Waddy Bauckham here concerning that? Because I remember this from the Ligonier Conference.

49:48

Dead men don't grab.

49:49

John Dickerson That's right.

49:50

Darrell Bock That's the point.

49:52

Dead men don't grab.

49:52

If you're dead in your trespasses and sins, there'll be all the life preservers thrown at you.

49:57

It doesn't matter.

49:57

You're a skeleton on the bottom of the ocean floor.

50:00

John Dickerson Yeah.

50:00

Darrell Bock You've already drowned.

50:01

You're dead.

50:02

You can't do anything.

50:04

John Dickerson Yeah.

50:05

Darrell Bock So, but God – John Dickerson But God – Darrell Bock Being rich in mercy because of the great love which – did what? Made you alive together with him.

50:12

John Dickerson That's right.

50:13

Darrell Bock With Christ Jesus.

50:14

John Dickerson Making us alive is not something we participate in.

50:17

Any more than our physical birth was part of our doing, our rebirth is not part of our doing.

50:23

And that's the hard part for people.

50:25

And again, you want to know the distinction between Calvinism and non-Calvinism? It's where you put regeneration.

50:31

If being born again is something that happens after you believe, then you're not a Calvinist.

50:38

If being born again is what causes you to believe, then you're a Calvinist.

50:42

That's it.

50:44

Foreknowledge, all the rest of that stuff, it will always come down to where you put regeneration.

50:49

If regeneration causes faith, you're a Calvinist.

50:53

If faith produces regeneration, you're not a Calvinist.

50:58

And that's honestly – Darrell Bock But the problem with that is, is that what do you do with Ephesians 2? If your faith preceded your – John Dickerson Life.

51:05

Darrell Bock Life.

51:06

John Dickerson Yeah.

51:06

Darrell Bock Then what's Ephesians 2, 8 say? For by grace you've been saved through faith.

51:10

This is not of your doing.

51:11

John Dickerson Yeah.

51:12

Darrell Bock It's a gift of God.

51:13

John Dickerson That's right.

51:13

Darrell Bock So see, he answers that argument four verses later.

51:17

John Dickerson Yeah.

51:18

And I – Darrell Bock Your faith cannot precede your rebirth, because if it did, then it's a work that you perform to save yourself.

51:28

John Dickerson And there is a – we can nerd out on this.

51:34

Time will not allow me to nerd out completely.

51:36

But when it says for by grace you've been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing.

51:43

It is the gift of God.

51:44

There is an argument regarding the – what this refers to.

51:50

Does this refer to grace when it says in verse 8, and this is not your own doing? Some translations say that is not of yourselves.

51:58

That pronoun has an antecedent, and the antecedent is – people will say, is it grace or is it faith? Well, the immediate word is faith, but that doesn't always mean that that's the antecedent.

52:08

It's tied to a gender, whether it's masculine, feminine, or neuter, and that's what ties it together.

52:15

And the problem is this does not connect to faith or grace, but rather to the whole.

52:21

When it says by grace you were saved through faith, and this is not of yourselves, this is actually referring to all of it.

52:29

Grace, salvation, and faith is all together the gift of God and not of works, or not your own doing, rather.

52:39

It's the gift of God.

52:40

So yeah, like I said, we could go a little further down that rabbit hole, but that's something that has to be understood.

52:45

This is not your doing, and again, monergism versus synergism.

52:50

Did we assist God in bringing about our salvation in the sense of did we participate with our faith? I've heard, you know, God did 99 percent, but you've got to do your 1 percent.

53:00

Or did God do it all, and we are the benefactors or the beneficiaries? So anyway.

53:06

Well, how sovereign do you believe God is then? Because if Christ has made it possible, but you've got to make it effective, then one, you're saying you've got more power than God.

53:19

That's my opinion on it.

53:20

I mean, Christ's work of redemption requires that you make it effective.

53:27

That's some pretty weak work if you've got to put it to action.

53:34

He done all of this, took on the full cup of God's wrath, crushed his son, was pleased to do so, and did it all, and he's just hoping that you'll make it effective.

53:46

With the possibility that no one would believe.

53:49

Right.

53:49

With the possibility that nobody would take it.

53:51

I've asked that question, too.

53:52

Is it possible that Christ could have come and died on the cross, and no one chose to believe? And I've not met a non-Calvinist who would say, well, no, that's not possible.

54:04

You know, of course there are going to be people who believe.

54:06

And I say, why? If you believe that it's completely up to their will, if you believe that everyone could Christ have died in vain, because you remember the parable of the wedding feast, where the king set forth the feast for his son, and no one came.

54:24

So what did he do? He sent his servants to the hedges and to the highways, and said, go and compel, that's an important word, compel them to come in, that my son's feast might be filled.

54:39

And so, you know, the idea is that there could have been an empty marriage supper, following the logic of the other side.

54:48

And again, this is the holes in the dam, friends.

54:52

If you're on the other side, it's not as if you've got a sure dam that doesn't have any holes.

54:55

You've got holes.

54:57

And if people start plucking out your inconsistencies, you may find yourself on less of a sure footing than you realize.

55:05

And I want to draw to a close with this illustration.

55:08

I wish we had time to look at more text.

55:09

Maybe you can come back and we'll do this again.

55:10

But getting back to the dead, the life preserver example.

55:20

There was a pastor, and I don't remember his name, but he used an illustration that was so bad, and it was opposed to Calvinism.

55:29

We were talking about bad examples earlier.

55:31

We were both listening, or going to be listening to a sermon by a very famous ex-Calvinist pastor that we're going to be responding to in a future episode.

55:39

And he was using a bad example.

55:41

Well, there was another years ago, there was another very bad example.

55:44

And it was an example of two boys who were who saw the sign on the farmer's yard that said no swimming, that they jumped over the fence anyway, and they went swimming in the farmer's creek.

55:57

And they both began to drown.

55:59

And the farmer comes along and he he throws a rope in and he pulls one boy out, but he lets the other boy die.

56:07

And the pastor was like, that's Calvinism, because God is only giving a rope to one person and he's only pulling one person out.

56:17

He's letting the other person die.

56:20

And these two little boys who were just just swimming in the farmer's pond, he's going to let one of them die.

56:26

And that's not a God of love.

56:28

That's the God of Calvinism.

56:30

He's unloving.

56:32

Now, let me first of all, you've heard this.

56:34

I hadn't heard it, but I know where you're going.

56:36

Yeah.

56:37

First of all, that illustration totally under develops the concept of sin, because what you have as sinners are two sweet little boys who just be out there swimming in a man's pond, which we would say that's wrong.

56:56

But we would all say it's just boys being boys kind of thing.

56:59

It's wrong, but it's, you know, whatever.

57:01

The picture the Bible paints is not two relatively innocent children making a mistake, but rather it paints the picture of rebels who are who are opposed to a king and are actively seeking the king's dethroning.

57:21

And the king chooses by his grace to be merciful to some of those rebels, but to also enact judgment on others.

57:35

And he does so by his own mercy, and he does so according to his own will.

57:41

And that's the difference is how we see ourselves, right? Because the biggest problem with the non-Calvinist side is they want man to be worthy of something that he's not worthy of.

57:53

God was not, God has not been obligated to save anybody.

57:56

That's right.

57:57

He's not obligated.

57:58

So to use that guy's example, God's not obligated to throw a rope to anybody.

58:02

That's right.

58:03

Period.

58:03

And first of all, it didn't matter if he threw a rope to you anyway, you wouldn't be able to grab it.

58:06

You're dead in your sins anyway.

58:07

Yeah.

58:09

And there was another thing I was thinking of, and I lost it, but I knew that's where you were going with it, is the idea of not understanding who we are as sinners.

58:18

That's right.

58:19

Because we deserve hell, period.

58:23

God could have left it alone, offered no redemption, and sent us all to hell, and would have been glorified in doing so.

58:30

But that's the point I was trying to make.

58:32

But he chose to show mercy to some because, as much as I hate to say it this way, and I'm just quoting what someone else said, and it makes God sound like he's narcissistic, but God's out for number one.

58:45

His glory.

58:46

His glory is number one.

58:48

Sure.

58:48

And in order for him to be fully glorified, you have to see him in his full nature.

58:54

You got to see his mercy, and his forgiveness, and his grace, but you got to see his wrath, and his justice, and his holiness.

59:02

If you don't see all of it, you don't see all of who he is, and he's not fully glorified.

59:07

So to glorify himself completely, he has chosen to save some, but leave the rest of the destruction so that you see, because you don't understand mercy and grace without understanding wrath and justice.

59:16

You understand wrath and justice without seeing mercy and grace.

59:19

You see his whole character displayed in salvation and judgment.

59:25

And no one gets injustice.

59:28

No.

59:29

You either receive God's mercy, or you receive God's justice.

59:34

But you never receive God's injustice.

59:37

God is never unjust.

59:38

No, because he crushed Christ for your sin.

59:42

So he is still just.

59:43

He is the just and justifier of those who believe in Christ.

59:47

Romans 3, I think.

59:48

He's not giving anybody a pass.

59:50

That's the grace and mercy of Christ, is that the pass that you're given was based on the wrath that he suffered.

59:58

That's right.

59:59

So, anyway.

01:00:00

Well, guys, I hope you enjoyed today's episode.

01:00:02

I want to thank Richard again for coming in and doing this special recording with me, so I'd have a show for next week, and we do these shows basically the same week they're recorded sometimes.

01:00:12

But I do have some upcoming guests that I'm going to be welcoming onto the show.

01:00:19

Dr.

01:00:20

Edward Dalkor, who is an expert on the doctrine of the Trinity, is going to be joining me in a couple weeks.

01:00:24

I've got some other plans for some other shows that we're going to be doing, so I hope you're enjoying the show.

01:00:29

I hope you're sharing it with other people so that they can also be learning and enjoying.

01:00:33

And hopefully today was an encouragement to you on why we believe that Calvinism is true and some of the ways that we would use to support that, to defend that position.

01:00:44

Also, please keep in mind that if you're listening to this on a podcast, we do have a YouTube page, and I've been trying to encourage people to go there.

01:00:51

There are things on the YouTube page that are not on the podcast.

01:00:54

If you're listening on Spotify or Anchor or Google or something, if you go to youtube.com slash conversationswithacalvinist, there's a lot of mini short videos that I do there.

01:01:05

There's some things that aren't on the podcast page.

01:01:07

And it's just a lot of fun.

01:01:08

And if you can go there, like and subscribe.

01:01:11

We're building that platform over there to try to reach more people.

01:01:14

So if you could do that to help us out, we sure would appreciate it.

01:01:18

So Richard, thank you for being with me today.

01:01:20

Not a problem.

01:01:21

And just so everybody knows, this was a spur of the moment thing.

01:01:24

Like I had zero prep time.

01:01:26

So if I said something goofy, blame him.

01:01:30

He is true.

01:01:31

Literally called me at 11 o'clock.

01:01:32

Hey man, what are you doing? Yeah.

01:01:33

Sitting at a gas station.

01:01:35

Want to come by the church? Sure.

01:01:37

Let's do a show.

01:01:39

And I'm glad we did.

01:01:40

And I hope it was a help to you.

01:01:41

And again, if you have a question of something you'd like for us to address in the future, please send it to calvinistpodcast at gmail.com.

01:01:48

Thank you for listening to Conversations with a Calvinist.

01:01:50

My name is Keith Foskey and I've been your Calvinist.

01:01:53

May God bless you.