Our Journey to Calvinism...and why we're still here!

Moral Inability and the Child Who Covers His Eyes

There's a moral inability. It's not a physical inability. It's a moral inability. So when when God speaks of our Inability, it's not that it's not like the blind man who can't see. It's like the child who covers his eyes and doesn't want to see.

It's not like the deaf man who can't hear. It's like the child who sticks his fingers in la la la la la. It is a it's a moral unwillingness. Welcome back to conversations with the Calvinist. My name is Keith Foskey and I am a Calvinist and I'm joined today by one of the best friends I have in the world and good friend of the show Richard Richard Roden the deacon par excellence who again Gave me my house and I appreciate it didn't give it to me but sold it to me and I do appreciate that.

I get you did get a friends and family discount. I did. I got a friends and family discount.

I got to move into his house and he's now living in a new house and it's sort of that whole Three little pigs thing because like you're in like a brick house now and I'm in a double wide. So I do feel like when the winds come.

So like if Fiona gives gets spiraled up. Pretty good. You'd be coming to my house. That's right. That's right. So.

But anyway, I want to talk a little bit about our journeys to Calvinism now I will say from the beginning I've told my story several times in fact if you go back to the beginning of this podcast way back to when it was conversate or excuse me when it was coffee with a Calvinist I Did a five-part series called my journey to Calvinism and it was 5 15 or 20 minute videos I did over a course of a week and I think that's been very helpful to some people.

So if you've never listened to that and you want to hear more of how I became a Calvinist and why that matters I would encourage you to go back and listen to those those are available on the Sovereign Grace Family Church YouTube page.

They're not on my new podcast page because I didn't migrate everything over. But the the playlist is there on the Sovereign Grace Family Church page. It's all connected. And if you're interested, like I said, I'm going to give a short synopsis today and I wanted to hear Richard's story because you and I both We both grew up in Christian homes in the sense that we were brought to church.

Mm-hmm. Neither one of us was Saved though. As children we were saved as.

2001 is when I Actually came to faith when I was nine. I had a false conversion. It was a we were at a Pentecostal Church. They had an evangelist. He did the whole. Do you want to go to heaven or hell thing?

I'm nine years old and of course, you're gonna pick heaven or over hell.

Yeah, and very similar. I mean, I got baptized at eight right? I was baptized again at 12. So, you know, there were all these things that happened, but I didn't really come to faith until I was 19. You were 21, right?

You were the you were. Interestingly enough you were one of the first people to really challenge me on some doctrinal things.

We were riding in a bread truck together, right? I was training you to be a bread man.

Yes, which I did not become a bread man by the grace of God and you are no longer a bread man.

You are now a little dead man. My kids call him the muffin man. That's right every once in a while.

He'll bring us a box of.

Still good, but yet expired just out of date muffins. I picked up but this stuff's got enough Preservatives in it. It's good. Well beyond the. That's right. That's right gonna last forever.

So we but like I said, my kids call you the muffin man. But but yes, we were in a bread truck and we were talking about Once saved always saved eternal security. Because at that point I didn't even really believe in that doctrine because I wasn't brought up Baptist.

I wasn't brought up really with understanding the scriptures in that way and had not even really been challenged on that and you challenged me and I remember that began sort of a Movement in my life towards sort of looking at the scriptures and a little closer and examining my conclusion.

So I give you a Credit as not only as a friend, but as a as an instrument of God sanctification in my life. So right there.

And interestingly enough at that point in time, I wasn't yet a Calvinist either but yet I was holding to a very Calvinist doctrine. Yeah, you're holding to Security which Calvinist would call person to the Saints, right?

Yeah. So anyway, go ahead.

I just want to make you said persuasion.

I started to say preservation of the Saints and then everybody came out. Persuasion and it didn't. I just want you to listen. I wanted to let it go. But I couldn't and it won't get edited out later because he's just that nice to me.

It's the persuasion.

Listen we don't believe in total disability unconditional action limited atonement irresistible grace and then persuasion.

Saints. Good gracious, listen folks. I'd run my route today. I didn't take a day off. I've run my route and he calls me and I've come in after work. So get some grace here. Hey that reminds me.

I will tell the audience this we're doing the show today, which is Tuesday the 15th. I'm sorry Thursday the 15th. My baby is not yet born yet. This show will probably go after we're recording this early.

You came in as a nice friend to me to help me record a show that could go out after the baby's born because I'm Here so Hopefully everything will go good with that but those of you who are watching this after the baby's born There may be some shows that come out that are pre-recorded.

And that's this one and I do appreciate Richard coming in with his extra special clean t-shirt to help you record today's show. So so tell me the story in a nutshell of how you went from being a Southern Baptist.

Normal, you know, I guess a lot of people call it traditional Southern Baptist, even though we would say the the original Southern Baptist were Calvinistic, but how'd you go from being a Southern Baptist that didn't believe in predestination didn't and to to where you are now.

What were the steps God used to lead you there?

Well, I Wasn't really exposed to Calvinism a whole lot. So from the time I started to let me go back I started attending Greg Abel's Baptist Church because my wife my wife now who I wanted to be my wife.

Then I was pursuing her. The only way her dad would let me see her was that church. So I came to church just chasing a girl they call that missionary dating. So anyway, that's what led to my conversion was attending this church.

I came to faith in this church and it's current church I attend now is Greg Abel's Baptist Church. But at the time there wasn't any kind of reformed anything in it, so it's just your basic Southern Baptist stuff.

I Became exposed to Calvinism through Hank. Hank is your brother my brother. He had uh, he had adopted reform doctrine. He had. Be he had he had adopted it fully and I had conversations with him. He used to host like a fight night UFC fight night at his house.

We'd all go over there.

I thought you're gonna say he hosted conversations with a Calvinist. I'd like. No.

No, he hosts he would we'd have fight night at his house when UFC was just getting started really heavy on their pay-per-views and stuff. I mean, you're going by like UFC 25 and stuff like that. Anyway, they're on like 300 now.

Yes. Yeah, so I remember having conversation his bat in his in his kitchen not his bathroom his kitchen about things concerning election and predestination and my argument was always It says God is sovereign and he knows everything.

He looked down the corridor of time saw me choose and therefore elected me based on that and of course Hanks trying to argue the other and I wouldn't have none of it and then and that's a very common doctrine.

It's sometimes referred to as the doctrine of prescience. Prescience is a is the idea of pre science or pre knowledge precognition that God knows what you're going to do. He knows every option that you have.

He knows what option you're going to choose and he chooses you based upon your choice of him, right. That same thing.

I believed before becoming Calvinist. So go ahead and we could we and I would also somebody used Romans 8 for knowledge. That would be like my argument is he for knew he for knew what I was going to do.

Therefore a total misunderstanding of what the word actually meant. So I Was against it and I'd have met other Calvinists who were just jerks about it. You know, so I was you met a Calvinist jerk. Yes.

Can you believe it or not? They're out there. So because it wasn't Hank that turned me off of it completely but those people who were just nasty about it I want to do it. I was just wholly against it and I'd attended only like who yes.

Yes, I was completely against. Okay completely against it and I didn't even know there was a class that a good friend of ours I'll leave his name out of it just because I don't know if he wants me to use it or not.

But I'd call him a seminary walk-in seminary. I mean, he just knows any discipled me and all that. Great guy, but he had did a little class like a couple nights against Calvinism and I bought into what he said.

So I was pretty armed against it. Well fast forward to 2011 Andy Smith comes to our church. He didn't view of a call preaches gets. Gets voted in he becomes our new pastor real quick just so everybody understands.

This is Andrew Smith who is now the pastor at Christ Performed Community Church in st. Augustine.

Yes, and we both have a good relationship, right, right.

So he comes in and Preaches his sermon, you know how you come in they preach a sermon to get voted on that's Southern Baptist way. We voted him and he's our new pastor. Now. His first sermon was on John 3 and In that sermon, I remember it like it was yesterday.

I was I was sitting on the front row to the right of the To his left him and I was sitting some to the right of the the stage chancellor. Whatever you'll call it and I remember him saying this phrase God doesn't love everyone the same and my antenna went up.

I'm like, that's a Calvinist statement. I've ever heard one. So I'm already aggravated. Because we just voted a little fella we just voted have a meet. We just voted a Calvinist into this church. I'm already aggravated worried.

So the very next Sunday. Just being an absolute. But I guess you could say our Sunday school class was in the main office. So I came into our Sunday school class looked through the hallway and I saw his office door was open.

So I just walked right on his office and I asked him straight up. Are you a Calvinist and he points? To the wall and there's pictures of Luther Calvin. He's like, yeah. He didn't hide it. So while we started having a conversation and of course, it's before service and all that so he can't go into date detail.

He said why don't we go to lunch and we'll talk about it. So I said, that's fine. Okay. Well, we'll go to lunch and we'll have a conversation. Now I can't remember if prior to going to lunch or after our first meeting at lunch.

But I think it was prior to for whatever reason and it's just God's sovereignty and everything for whatever reason. Adam page approaches me Out of the blue completely and he recommends against Calvinism by Roger Olson.

Roger Olson and for Calvinism by Michael Horton. He said just read these and see what you think out of the blue, so I got him and Yeah, it was prior to me meeting with Andy he said we'll go ahead and start reading some of them and then we'll have lunch.

After you've read some of it. So I read against Calvinism. Which I even in reading it I was thinking even though I remember reading it. This just sounds like a lot of philosophical argument not a lot of scripture to back it up.

And then I met with Andy and in Andy and the conversation I had with Andy one of the things I remember him saying That really stuck out to me before I started for Calvinism was he said He wanted me to think about this when it comes to Adam and Eve is They were born.

They were created perfect and They had the ability to choose or not choose God. Whereas everyone after that do not have the ability to choose God and then keep that in mind as I go forward. So I get into for Calvinism by Horton.

I read ended up reading the whole thing, but all it took was reading about total depravity and Once he explained that you're dead in your sins. Your nature does not allow you to choose God in any way shape or form.

So if it wasn't for God choosing you first, you're done. You ain't got a hope in the world of ever coming to faith. That's all I needed to hear. To make the rest of because once you understand total depravity the rest of the tulip just falls into place.

But total depravity is the number one thing you got to understand once you realize I can't choose God in and of myself. It's outside of my nature to do so my simple nature prevents me from coming to Christ.

Outside of the spirit doing the work of regenerating my dead spirit to life so that I can then place faith and repentance. It was over for me. So I ended up meeting with Andy a few more times and that's how I became came into Understanding Calvinism and after that for a while.

I was in that cage stage because I was just. Everybody needs to know this. It's weird how when you come to understand this doctrine doctors of grace just like you. You're freaking out. Everybody needs to know.

Why don't you understand this? Why can't you buy into it? Well the same reason you didn't buy into it at first you dope stop being a jerk about it and just calm down. But That's how that's that was my journey into it that's how I came to it just Andy showing up and having the The patients to want to speak just have a conversation with me and not getting upset because I stormed the office on the second week there and Out of the blue for whatever reason.

Adam page offering up a couple of recommendations for some books nice and through some study.

That's all it took now. Remember I was a Calvinist before you were. Right. Because I was a Calvinist for Andy came to Greg Abel's right and. But I don't remember you and I ever having that conversation.

Maybe it was brought up a few times. I think you said to me. Maybe in just passing because we weren't as close in the mid 2000s. I mean we've become much closer in the last 10 years and we were the first 10 years out of school.

We've been out of school for 22 years right. 24 years first 10 years. We didn't really see or hang out much. But I mean we saw each other in the bread truck and a few other times and I remember you saying things to me.

That sounds Calvinistic or something, but it wasn't. You know, you never you were never harsh with me. Maybe because we weren't as close but or anything, but but I I.

So what year was that for you? That was 2011. Okay. So for me, it was.

2004 to 2006. Okay was that so it was it was several years before. Because in 2004 I went to a church camp. I was the it was either 2004 2005 I went to a youth camp. I was the speaker and the guy had in the camp.

I've told this story before the guy had in the camp was a Was a recently converted Calvinist. He's a converted a recently Convinced Calvinist right and he challenged me on the relevant texts and He asked me, you know, what are your what's your position and I gave the same thing you did.

God saw what I was gonna do. He made the choice and I remember hearing and this is boy. It's funny I think it was Tony Evans, but it might not be. I just remember it sounded like Tony I used to listen the radio.

I'd listen John McArthur Tony Evans, you know, these guys that would come on way radio mm-hmm, and I remember him saying God knows everything actually and Potentially and he knows what you're actually gonna do and what you're potentially going to do and what's interesting now I look back at that and that's almost like Molin ism.

It's not the same exact. You know, it's not a one-to-one comparison, but it is interesting. I remember and I remember thinking that sounds right and so like my idea was God knew all the potential things Keith would do and he also knew what Keith would actually do and Therefore he judged me based on what I actually was going to do and he knew what it was.

Right, and so again that was I was pretty affirmed in that I think I was third or fourth year and in my in my seminary training at that point, right and I felt pretty confident. Until old dude at camp and I was the speaker.

He was the host right and and he just started just nailing me. Well, what do you think about this? What do you think about this? How does this fit into your system that you've created and what and what I think is what people don't a lot of people don't realize.

When it comes to the Arminian system is Arminian ism. The the opposite of Calvinism is a system too and when people start trying to poke holes in Calvinism and they do and part of the reason why I wanted to make this video Today is because you know recently I've begun putting on putting up short videos.

Referring to Calvinism's a lot of them are attempting to be funny and some of them are humorous. But they're all attempting to make a point. A lot of people are coming out. It's oh, yeah, you know. They you what about this?

What about this and they're always trying to poke holes. Well, the holes can be poked in the other direction too. Mm-hmm. And so when we look at that was what he did to me. He didn't say here's the system of Calvinism.

You need to believe he said how does your system that you have? Which is this look God looking down the quarter of time? Scenario, how does this system fit? Into this right, you know, how does God look down the quarter of time and see you do something that you can't do?

I Mean think of how how powerful question that is, right if you are if you're unable no one can come to me. Lest the father sent me draw some and I will raise him up on the last day. No one can come unless the father granted him if you're unable to do something.

How is God looking down the quarter of time and seeing you do something you can't do? And that's a powerful that's a hole in the dike and again once the hole in the rest of the dam just burst right and So that was it for me.

It was it was it was scripturally pulling out the pins and the whole thing starts to fall and and again, what I wanted to do after sort of telling our stories today is I wanted to look at some of the passages that were I Remember sitting in again.

I've told the story I sitting in my living room yelling at my wife saying Betty Don't it sound like What brother Jim said this sound like Calvinism, you know, cuz I was just reading the scripture and and and and I Did read some books and to be honest, I read a lot of stuff against Calvinism because I didn't want to believe it, right?

That's why I started with against Calvinism. In fact over on the wall somewhere and for those who don't know.

This is also my books book room on that wall Somewhere is a book entitled grace faith and free will by Robert Picker really. Now most people probably don't know that name but it was it was a challenge to Calvinism and I thought Robert Picker really did a good job but his conclusion was The reason why he he was opposed to Calvinism.

Mm-hmm. He said and he called himself. I think he called himself a reformed Arminian, which was a weird. That's like that's like a Octomoron, yeah, but what he said and it and it and I think this is true.

He said if you if he said I believe in I believe Calvinism is wrong Because the Bible teaches you can lose your salvation. That was his conclusion. Now again, I disagree, but his conclusion was and and I remember thinking This is a consistent argument.

Even though I disagree with his conclusion if you follow his argument you this is where you end up, right? Because you had the freedom to Put yourself in right? You must then therefore maintain the freedom to pull yourself back out, right?

And that was his argument now you again some of you out there may be Anti-calvinist or uncalvinist non-calvinist whatever and you may say well, I don't believe that's consistent. I'm saying that's the argument he made right picker.

He really made the argument that the consistent position must be you can lose your salvation and then he worked his way backwards. Well, if I can lose my salvation Well perseverance of the Saints isn't true and if perseverance of the Saints isn't true, then the irresistible grace isn't true so he he started with you can lose your salvation worked his way backwards and ultimately built a Libertarian freewill argument based upon the fact that he believed you could lose your salvation.

So I Said this I said at least he's consistent, right? You know, he's made his argument based upon this consistent thing, but other than that the books that probably were you know, most Influential on me outside of scripture and I do believe I've come to my conclusion based on scripture as I'm sure you you do as well.

Scripture, Regeneration, and the Doctrines of Grace

Yeah, I wanted to say before you go to that the books is I know I said I read the book by Michael Horton. But you gotta understand something about Michael Horton if you're familiar with him. Where I said Roger Olson's argument was a lot of philosophical argument with very little scripture.

Michael Horton backed up every single thing with scripture and One of the things I didn't mention before was I'd spend two hours a night on this. I would read a chapter and I'd spend an hour or better reading the chapter his book because I'd spend so much time going to All the scriptures he's referencing.

Yeah, and he was very thorough and making sure that his argument was backed by scripture. So I'm make it very clear scripture was the reason I came to understand the doctrines of grace. It's just I needed Michael Horton to lead me to where they were and what they meant.

Chosen by God R .c. Sproul, right? I almost brought the book in today because it's on my other shelf in there. But there's a page on it. That was that was it was like slap me in the face. I remember the page and it's a little chart in the book and it says here are the theologians that have held to.

The position on the will that Calvin would hold to which is the bondage of the will. Mm-hmm, and not that they would all hold Calvin's all of Calvin's doctrines. But he was saying these are the these are the theologians historically who've held to this any any it was Augustine and it was Luther and it was Calvin it was Knox and it was you know, Spurgeon and all these guys he said and here's the guys who've held to the other side and it was Pelagius and it was and it was a Wesley and it was guys, you know, right so not everybody was you know, I hold Wesley in high regard.

So it was like it was not as if he was just nailing all the baddies. But I mean Pelagius is you know, he's typically referred to as the arch heretic Pelagius. So it's like so there were some guys on the other side and I remember looking at that chart thinking wow this is something to consider if the if the theologians of the past who have been held in high regard are Typically looking at this and it's again, it's the will the issue of the human will.

Martin Luther's bondage of the will if you've never read it. It's it's his back and forth with Desiderius Erasmus completely obliterates the idea of Libertarianism regarding the free will even if you are not a Calvinist to hold to a libertarian free will is is Unbiblical even if you're not a Calvinist because libertarian free will basically says that The effects of the fall are essentially moot that we have the ability in and of ourselves to choose Righteousness or unrighteousness at any given point and and this is Not the way the Bible describes the human.

Well, the Bible describes us as being slaves of sin or Slaves of righteousness, it never ever discusses us being free in regard to our will and so chosen by God. Very important right over there. I can see it is the Potter's freedom.

What's interesting? It was chosen by God and then Norman Geisler wrote chosen but free which was response to Arcee's role and then our James White wrote the Potter's freedom. Which is in response to Norman Geisler.

Norman Geisler according to James White said, you know, this wasn't about you. I was responding to Arcee like you're you know, like this was get away, you know. You know, and so it kind of and then there was debating Calvinism, which is right next to it debating Calvinism was between James White and Dave Hunt and That was actually given out at my seminary to try to destroy Calvinism read this book.

Dave Hunt destroys Calvin. He does not I would say make some of the worst Arguments opposing Calvinism, so that was the journey if you will. It was scripture. It was these you know reading these books and again reading books opposed to it as well as you did you read opposing Calvinism?

I read grace faith and free will as well as you know, Norman Geisler and others who were opposing it. And and I will say this before we even go further and I've said this recently on a short video I do not believe that non Calvinists are not saved.

You know, some people would say just because you're not because we were both saved before becoming Calvinist, right? And so neither of us would say this is an issue of whether or not you're in the kingdom.

But we would say that this is a this this this makes more consistent some hermeneutical. Well, I think this employs a more consistent hermeneutic. I think this also arrives at more consistent conclusions, even though some of those conclusions are hard.

There are difficult questions, but I think those questions are difficult on both sides. Like for instance the question of of evil. What did God, you know? Predestined evil in the same way that he predestined other things is God the author of evil and of course Calvinist would say no God's not the author of evil, but whether you are a Calvinist or a non Calvinist I'm not gonna say Arminian because I know some people I'm not Arminian.

I'm just whatever whether you're a Calvinist or not, you have to you have to Address the issue of what how God deals with the issue of evil. Because even if you say well God doesn't decree evil you still believe God has the power to thwart it.

Unless you believe God is impotent or you believe in open theism, which God doesn't know what's gonna happen. Either way You got a false God. Mm-hmm if you believe God knows for certain what's going to happen and can act in time to thwart that thing and Chooses not to you're still you're still dealing with a decree.

He's decreeing to act or to allow an act to happen, so whether you take a Deterministic view or whether you take a Molinistic view or whatever. You're still saying God has made a choice here. Mm-hmm.

And so you nobody can just come at the count with all God, you know, God's the author of evil and Calvinism. No, you're still dealing with a God who is completely sovereign unless you have a God who's not sovereign.

And I don't know if you ever heard of the the book When good things or when bad things happen to good people is written by a Jewish man. Who was who said his conclusion was God just can't do anything about it.

His conclusion what no no, his conclusion was that's I think if I remember correctly and I talked about this in my ethics class. So forgive me if I'm a little wrong on this I can go back and look it up after the show.

But he did he wrote the book when bad things happen to good people and his his ultimate. Because his son had passed away and his ultimate conclusion was I can't believe in a God who would have the power to save my son.

And didn't so I'm gonna believe in a God who just didn't have the power to change it. That was gonna happen regardless God couldn't change it. Therefore that's you are left with an impotent God. You're left with a God who can't change things and That to me is is is a bridge too far.

Well, my mind goes to.

Concerning, you know, he'd lost a son. Well, my mind goes to Job. Job didn't have information that we have. Yeah this conversation that happened in heaven between him and Satan. God offered Job up to Satan and Allowed Satan to inflict him the way he did and Satan inflict him the first time.

He said you can do a do anything you want to him. Just don't touch him. Yeah, so he killed his whole family took everything he had and Job still worshipped now. Then later they had the same conversation again.

God offers up Job and Says he's a upright and righteous man. And then of course Satan says skin for skin Let me afflict him personally and he'll curse you to your face and then course then God allows him to just don't kill him and he goes through the boils and all that stuff.

But the whole point is and and his wife's in the background just curse God. Just curse God. No, just you know, but what does Job say to that. Job's response to that is you're taught like a foolish woman.

Yeah, are we exposed to accept the good from God, but not the bad. Yeah. And think about the bad that he's accepting from God and he's attributing it to God. So to say God doesn't have anything to do with what happens in your life whether good or bad.

That's non-biblical and it's and it's so it's sad to think that way. Right to think like the. The some of these people and I've heard preachers who would say God can't act unless you give him permission.

What kind of God are you worshiping? If you say the Bible exactly if you're saying God can't act unless you give him permission.

What kind of God this you're talking about. The God who spoke the universe into existence? But you have some power over him. Exactly. That's insane.

Well, we did we said at the beginning we were gonna look at a few passages and we're getting we just passed the 30-minute mark of The show and we I do want to look at a few passages. These are ones that we both would say caused us to have to step back and re-evaluate what we thought.

Mm-hmm in our in our introduction to Calvinism and and and looking at the scriptures. So the first one we're gonna look at is is Romans chapter 3 Beginning at verse 9 and I don't know. Can you read this from there?

Yes, I just got to answer a quick no worries, no worries.

All right. So Romans chapter 3 verse 9 says what then are we Jews any better off? And I've checked my phone too because again, my wife's pregnant. So you reminded me. This is this is live recording folks.

Yep. All right. So what then are we Jews any better off now a very quick point? The term Jews here is actually an a English insertion that word Jews is not in the Greek. It actually says are we any better off but it's it's actually something that Paul is.

He's addressing Jews and Gentiles both from chapter 1 and chapter 2. This really doesn't matter but from an exegetical perspective some some of your Bibles won't say Jews. It'll just say are we any better off but Paul is of course Jesus.

He is a Jew. He's talking of himself, right? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all for we have already charged that all both Jews and Greeks are under sin. As it is written. None is righteous. No, not one now right away.

Everyone would say hallelujah. Amen. None is righteous. Only Jesus is righteous. Only God is righteous. There's no not one when the rich young ruler came to Jesus. He said good teacher Jesus even chastised him.

He says why do you call me good? Mm-hmm. There's none good save God. But then he says no one understands. No one seeks for God right away. I Do you understand what he's saying? He's saying not only is no one Sinless, no one is righteous.

No one is good. But no one seeks for God, you know for years the church talked about the seeker sensitive. Mm-hmm where all these people say and people will say it all the time. Oh, I have this friend and he is a God seeker.

He's just seeking for God. No, he's not. No. He's not in the way that in in the way that I've described this to people as I say people seek The blessings of God. Mm-hmm, but they don't seek the being of God.

They don't want the God who gives the blessings. In fact for the for most people heaven is only gonna be heaven if God's not there because they don't want God, right? They want what God can give them.

They want the blessings, but they don't want the being I.

Remember Bill Maher and I think he did a documentary something called religiosity religious. Religious religious. Okay, and in it he even admits that he prays. There have been times where things got real bad.

Yeah, and he and he prayed to God and in his mind whoever that God is, but he was looking for relief. Yeah, but he wasn't looking for the God of the relief. He was just looking for the relief. That's right.