Rich Saves France; Injustice in America; Eastern Orthodox Anthropology; 2 Responses to Dan McClellan

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00:32

Well greetings, welcome to the dividing line here we are again. Hey, did you see before we dive into things here?

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Did you see most Americans don't pay much attention to? Elections anywhere else one of the fascinating things when

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I was traveling globally was how much interest? people overseas showed in American election

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I Remember I had to walk. I think I was in Brisbane Australia and I was walking someplace and I walked through this very large outdoor courtyard thing.

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They had big old Television, you know big widescreen big screen

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TV set up and it was Trump and Hillary and And I'm like,

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I'm in another country and people in those other countries generally no more Sadly than America most

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Americans do about the elections taking place here so Europe just had a bunch of elections and almost universally they were

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There was a hard swing to the right nationalism Get rid of the immigrants deport them

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This kind of stuff and I saw a map of France. They might get rid of Macron It was

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I mean, yeah, you know the same thing in the United States you you look at a map and The vast majority of its red, but then you've got these blue blotches which are called major cities

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But what I think people need to understand Is how that happened? you see what what what people don't know is

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That the most famous Frenchman outside of France Wrote an email that was distributed around France that encouraged them to return to You know a more

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Meaningful form of government and It was rich people just don't

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I mean in France you go to France and you go Prescott and the other time to go reach Pierre reach

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Pierre. They know so If if if France does manage to rid itself of much of its wild socialism

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It's our own rich that was behind the whole thing. And if you believe that I have some

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Land to sell you out in the middle of nowhere, but So rich has no words, which is good, which is a very very good thing.

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So very seriously Yes. Yes rich has been playing with with cameras and so the rich cam is gone and He was out there playing with the new

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Starlink system that I'll be taking with me Really just barely over a month now from now

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Lord. Well in I mean As Saying Lord willing is not just like when the

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Muslims say The same thing basically if Allah wills inshallah

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There there really is a theology behind it You know all sorts of things could go wrong between now and the 17th of July when

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I plan on pulling out anyway Seriously before we dive back into theological super theological issues.

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I You know, I Need to do another run through the minor prophets just simply

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It's been a while and you need you need reminders and But if you've read the major prophets, but especially the minor prophets

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The idea of justice and you know, sometimes we get tired of the term because it's just been so overused misused abused

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Turned on its head emptied of all meaning And you know when you live in a society that can

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Euphemistically refer to the murder of unborn children to the the burning of them of alive in their mother's wombs using

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Hormones to destroy their little lives Absolutely unique genetically unique never to be repeated.

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I wonder how many Beethoven's and Bach's have been Thrown into a trash can and an abortion and abortion wary

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Who knows but Any any culture that can call the murder of unborn children

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Reproductive freedom and and the people using that term don't get laughed off the stage for being moral pygmies and Having the

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IQ of a wet shoelace But that's what you got that's what the president vice president senators everybody in the

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Democratic Party and Sadly enough people in the Republic Republican Party to make sure that they'll always get what they want

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That's that's that's what we face today in our society So it shouldn't be when we look at the at the minor profits and we hear them talking about justice

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It's I'm starting to understand why There is so little discussion of real justice but I Was just been struck recently you we think back to what happened in 2020 we think back to people literally throwing bombs at federal buildings

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Injuring police officers Just riots on an unbelievable level and they're all just let go

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The Soros bought and paid for DA's we have a Soros bought and paid for mayor here in Phoenix They don't care about the law and they don't care what these people did and the government

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Whether it wants to have it or not Has a teaching role

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And the laws that they Enforce and the way they enforce them and the laws they choose not to enforce

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Are a means of teaching a society and so our society has said that as long as you're with BLM and Antifa and You're supporting

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Hamas and Hezbollah and All the rest of stuff you're good. You can do whatever you want.

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We will we won't touch you, but they are literally prosecuting people

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For burning burning out their tires doing

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Donuts on top of pride flags now, of course the very fact that any government entity would take my tax money and Paint my streets in a way to celebrate sexual perversity

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Is disgusting in and of itself But you know

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I was riding I've done a little bit more outside riding than I've done for a long time recently and I was going across a bridge over the 303 and I noticed going both directions there were doughnuts there were spins

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Someone you know probably two o 'clock in the morning had You know done that type of stuff out there, and you know if I'm sure they have cameras

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And if they catch the person they'll get a ticket But they're not going to jail for the next 20 years but kids on scooters that leave tire tracks on a

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Rainbow flag or a whatever these disgusting Things are that are being put up in every public school and everything else

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They'll go after them. They'll ruin their lives They'll ruin their lives. They'll charge them with felonies So you can throw bombs at federal buildings

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Deface a Pride flag, we're gonna put you in prison forever tells you everything you need to know about this corrupt regime

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I don't call it administration. It's a corrupt regime And the fact that we do now have without question right in front of our faces the applet the the establishment in a very non -democratic or representational way the establishment enforcement

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Application of blasphemy laws in the United States now a number of people have pointed out

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And it's true every society has blasphemy laws every society does you can't you can't avoid it?

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there are sacred things in every society and secular societies

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Establish their sacred ways Dishonestly Without being open about it and So we have blasphemy laws the blasphemy laws here are

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That which represents the American American history American morals and values from the past No problem

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They are not valued by our society any longer, and we're trying to teach everyone to not value them, but the new values

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The new values of sexual rebellion sexual perversity Destruction of family destruction of male and female anything that would dare to remind us of What we once were

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That you know all that That's the new the new holy holy places

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Schools and universities can't touch them. They're ours And our sacraments of sexual rebellion abortion

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You cannot touch these things if you dare show disrespect. We will come down on you like a ton of bricks and so What happens

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I think over time and you know you you see? Quotations on Twitter from Solzhenitsyn and You are hopefully reminded

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That We can't become Apathetic about this week as Christians the temptation is to go up.

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It's the world fallen world judgments coming therefore I'm just not gonna really

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Continue to be constantly troubled By what were euphemistically calling a two -tier judgment system.

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It's it's a justice system. It's just simple injustice. It's it's the Absolutely no different than the

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Banana Republic's where if you're in the party you can do every want You've outside the party the law

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Will come down upon you all the time That's that's where we are and We can never become apathetic about that.

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We have to prophetically say to our culture That not only is this wrong but it truly justly calls the wrath of God in a special way and That's not gonna make you popular

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You know you lose your job and everything else, but there's no other way to deal with it We we teach our children our grandchildren by what we are

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Passionate about and what would become apathetic about and we we can't afford to become apathetic about this.

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We just can't I'm not following overly closely The happenings at the

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Southern Baptist Convention, I'm seeing some you know lots of tweets and And Megan Basham has presented evidence of the

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External funding of the ERLC and it's Working to turn the

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Southern Baptist Convention leftward, which obviously it's accomplishing There's been a motion to defund the

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ERLC, I'm sure I would have seen if that had gone anywhere And I'm just I'm gonna see what happens at the end of all of this and Hopefully we can just sort of sit back and go look this was a signal year

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The Concept Fundamentally the the concept of a female

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Elder if you're going to accept that if you're going to say that that is appropriate then there are ramifications as to the sufficiency of Scripture because Scripture only gives you qualifications for male elders and The argument is well you know, we're past that now that was the

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Roman Empire at the time now we're past that and so It's sort of like You know, it's it's like homosexuality the

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Spirit speaking new things and just like it was a new thing to have the Gentiles come into the church You know, it's a new thing to have homosexuals come in or in this case.

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Don't go that far. We'll we'll just simply say Yeah, the reason Qualifications weren't given back then is because God knew eventually

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We would the gospel going to nations where that really wouldn't be an issue and so we don't need qualifications for female elders

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We can make them up on our own That's seemingly where things are going.

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It will be very very interesting to me to see what the vote is To give you an idea of what eventually within three or four years if if it if it's voted down The Percentage of the vote will give you a good idea of Who's gonna be leaving and how fast?

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the SBC will Become the next United Methodist debacle

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Because that's what's down the road if if they go that direction we will we will see

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What what happens with that Real quickly don't forget the raffle continues on for our

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Jeffrey Rice rebind and for our layered cross and we will have another raffle with for a

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Melton forged blade when when Derek gets back from a well -deserved vacay in Alaska A beautiful place to be going that's for sure and We've sold a bunch of tickets and but the ticket sales goes through the end of the month goes to the end of month, so I know it seems like a long time from now, but Get to it while you can to get your shot at At those two items and we'll let you know about the others when we get that opportunity

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Okay, I said that I would deal with this and I need to it's it's only 60 seconds long

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Of course, I could spend days on it But we will get back to Dan McClellan in just a moment but I specifically said on Twitter that We would look at this and as I said

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Dan McClellan to we'll get to it It's not sure how far we'll get with all this stuff Here is a video that was sent to me

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From an Eastern Orthodox priest and What was it 2017 when did

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Hank Hanegraaff convert? I think it was around I think it was around 2017 ish So that's about seven years ago and So when that happened we took

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You know some time to especially address issues regarding sola scriptura and What I said at the time was

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I'm not going to get into this Mainly because It is very very very very hard to explain to people

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Not only the differences amongst Orthodox theologians And The the expression of Orthodox belief especially as it differs between Russia Ukraine Greece That kind of stuff, but especially when it comes here to the

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United States. It just gets in a sense Demystified Mystery and I Don't know what a term to use

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Spirituality hate to use that term because I'm using it in a different way Orthodox experience is different than What we have in the

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West and it's very hard to explain all of that like I said the

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Orthodoxy when it becomes westernized does become Very much like a popeless

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Catholicism but real Orthodoxy outside the United States in the East really isn't it is different and it's hard to explain because the way of thinking in the

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East is so different than in the West and one of the fundamental differences is Anthropology and I'm not talking about if you took a class on anthropology in college or high school.

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I doubt they offer such thing anymore. Anyways, um in high school

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But um when I talk about Anthropology I'm talking about the doctrine of man and Specifically in regards to the doctrine of sin now a lot of this goes back to the early centuries of the encounter between Christianity and Islam That is very important and the fact that Orthodoxy from my perspective and I don't

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Claim be an expert But I have done a little reading over the years and I've mentioned before I had the opportunity of having dialogue with a

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Eastern Orthodox fellow Oh 30 years ago Who Understood Reformed theology and there have been

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A couple a number of Eastern Orthodox folks who have not only understood it but embraced it

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But they don't like to admit that anyway So the

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Concept that that I certainly function under is that orthodoxy is a freezing in time of The body of traditions that existed

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At a certain point in time in church history Now it's not the apostolic period and so there had been development there had been growth and and things like that They of course will claim that it's completely apostolic but it obviously isn't and It's like they have created their identity out of freezing

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Church history basically between the years 650 and 850 and the the traditions that were in prevalence at that point in time

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Become the most important things to them. So you have the iconoclastic controversy during that time period and so today

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You know, there's video of the of Eastern Orthodox folks and anathematizing us

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Protestants and by name Calvin Luther's owns over and so much of it is over the

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Second Nicene Council 787 ish time period and The fact that that council

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Decreed not only that you can venerate icons, but that you must

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Venerate icons creating that kind of division and So the anthropology

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That had become prevalent in Eastern churches at that time. I believe was a fundamentally

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Unbiblical anthropology it did not take seriously The Impact of the fall of man on all of man and of course

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That's the tendency the the tendency in every branch of branch of what is called

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Christendom is to Exalt the capacities of man and diminish the capacities of God.

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That's That's how man works You've got to give yourself that power that control so when this clip started circulating

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I'd say Saturday something like that. Most everyone is responding with Just amazement

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That someone would say the same things this man saying if you're familiar with Eastern Orthodox theology.

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It's not nearly as shocking and But what what it does do is help us to see where this ends up going and so, let's let's listen in and Make a few comments and move on from there

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This this whole idea that Christ is a human sacrifice to redeem us from God However, you want to phrase it exactly what it teaches is that Christ died to save us from God okay,

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I I do need to make comments in between To save us from God No This is gonna be a denial of penal substitutionary atonement

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Which you may think if you were raised in evangelical churches, you may think

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If you've not interacted with her is what everybody believes but in reality it is a

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Belief under severe attack certainly not believed by liberals and So you need to be aware of that reality

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But that's what he's gonna be denying. This is not to save us from God This is the

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Steve Chalk error where he over in the United Kingdom has said that well this This is about You know cosmic child abuse that God abuses his own child

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This is an eternal decree a An eternal covenant my father son and spirit to bring about the glory of the triune

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God through the Amazing act of redemption

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Whereby fallen man will be graciously Redeemed Through the work of the

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Sun the application of the Spirit all to the glory of the triune God and that God's law and God's character will be

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Vindicated through the Sun's self -giving now what surprises me a little bit again in light of Orthodoxy's fight for its existence against Islam is

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That this is so important in Talking to Islam and dealing with Islam's view of salvation

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I Won't go any further on that, but just go listen to the debate that I did with Shabir Ali at The Abu Bakr Siddiq mosque in 2013.

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I think it was October 2013 in South Africa on this very topic and You'll see how important That really is.

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That's what surprises me a little bit. You would think that would have pushed Orthodoxy to a little bit more biblical anthropology in regards to man and sin, but The substitutionary sacrifice is a neo -pagan doctrine worthy of Baal or Molech Just need to make sure you understood what he said substitutionary sacrifice penal substitutionary atonement

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Substitutionary sacrifice is worthy of Baal and Molech Baal the

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Baals the fertility gods That were constantly causing the

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Israelites to trip up Molech the God to whom children were sacrificed

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This is what he is saying this is what he is likening What we believe the self giving of the

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Sun in behalf of his people really is pretty amazing, but not worthy of the living

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God first thing to understand is that We're not dealing with sin. We're dealing with human suffering and most people fall into sin not because they're

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Intrinsically evil, but because the inner human suffering becomes so strong That it erupts outward in the form of a sin now as I said the real issue is

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The anthropology It's not that they don't have

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Romans 1 2 & 3 in their Bible. It's not they don't have The Psalter and all the texts about the

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Sinfulness of man's heart and and all the rest of stuff but the chief source of theology within Eastern Orthodoxy is the liturgy the prayers and the worship

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That becomes a very very very thick set of lenses that filters out

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From the reading of Scripture those elements that tradition filters out

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Everybody has lenses like that our greatest goal should always be to be thinning those lenses as much as possible and To honestly be aware of how they would impact our specific reading of specific texts

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And to understand now sin isn't about breaking the law sin is about doing something that alienates you again from God Sin is not breaking the law

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But sin is doing something that alienates you from God now You you will hear very similar things to this amongst progressivists in the

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West But even the way he said sin the first time you know in a mocking tone

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How do you even define it Sin is breaking the law of God and that's what brings alienation because the law of God actually expresses

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And reveals his holy character so when you sin against that law then you're you are being alienated from God But it's because you are setting yourself up As the ultimate authority you're serving your own lusts desires and and things like that It's the alienation.

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That's the problem The sin is just a symptom. It's just an instrument, but the alienation from God is a problem

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Okay, so if you don't have a substitutionary atonement Then how do you?

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How do you find reconciliation with God well? That's what theosis is about that's what

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The inner Gaia is about that's what the church and the sacraments is about and and and again, this is just a

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Fundamentally different way of Even approaching the issue and it's problematic not sure why the

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Screen went dark there, but okay, you need to pull it down since I've got other stuff up there So Just one of the many many many areas of Difference That exists between us and the

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Easter Orthodox that is well worth our discussion. I hope to do some more programs in the future

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We'll talk about a little more of that hopefully over the next couple weeks before I head out on the road again to do that now

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We Started off Listening to we've done four minutes, and it's taken us two programs.

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Let's on sexual criticism, so hey Listening to dr. Dan McClellan who is a walking contradiction

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Um He introduces himself before his little videos by calling himself a

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Bible scholar a scholar of the Bible and religion it's dime a dozen there but what's strange too many of us is that he is a

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Practicing member of the Church Jesus Christ Latter -day Saints, and I say that because he clearly embraces very critical views of Scripture Harmony of Scripture things like that that his critical training must

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Reveal to him if he reads anything at all in LDS Church history that Mormonism began and and can

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I even be defined outside of a view of Scripture and Revelation that he clearly himself does not hold and So as with so many

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Mormons today We are seeing all these Truly fascinating ways to Find a way to make it fit all together by fundamentally redefining

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What Mormonism really is supposed to be and This tremendous widening of Perspectives I really think started back and with Hinkley in about 1999

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But even before then I think they were sending like I said They sent people out to get degrees at Ivy League schools and things like that what didn't realize is these people were going to come back and they were going to inject into the very bloodstream of Mormonism a form of skepticism and critical analysis that The so plainly man -made

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Documents called the Book of Mormon. Dr. Cummings for a price Especially the Book of Abraham in the program price simply can't survive and So I want to finish listening to You know, he would he was responding to and admittedly very poorly stated

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Christian Argument about ninety nine point five percent accuracy on the

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New Testament manuscripts. It I Couldn't even figure out where the

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Christian presentation was going It was comparing apples and oranges. It was just wasn't well done

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So it was an easy easy one for McClellan to go after to be honest with you but this raises the question of What he calls the black hole

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Which is the fact that for any work of antiquity where you do not have the original writing itself, which until very modern times means everything

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I mean We you know that that we don't have the originals of the

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Quran or anything like that. I mean, that's just How things work when you're talking about history?

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That the period of time between when it's written and our first manuscript evidence he calls a black hole

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Well, I I don't know what that's the best terminology to use but yes, there would there will always be a time period between our first manuscripts and when something was written because it has to be being copied during that time and distributed and The vast majority of Everything that was written unless it was chiseled in stone

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The vast majority of everything that was written in the first century Doesn't exist anymore

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Or in the century before that a century, but you keep going backwards and the percentage gets smaller and smaller and smaller

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That's why when they find Uh What when was it is about a year year and a half ago they found

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You're always finding stuff in Israel because Archaeological work is going on constantly

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Whenever they build a building they run into something Archaeologically and they have to stop and redesign the building and people come in and collect stuff and it's great for us because we get all this information

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But they had found some of the blessings and cursings I think it's primarily cursings from What Deuteronomy 28 29?

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In a I think it was actually chiseled on rock and paleo Hebrew from what seven eight hundred years before Christ something along those lines and Everybody gets all excited and we're like, but that's only a couple verses, you know, it's that's only yeah but the point is

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Almost nothing that's written in the ancient world is going to survive through to today unless it's chiseled on rock and The New Testament wasn't chiseled on rock.

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It wasn't meant to be it was meant to be something that was a message It goes out to the whole world so As I said last time

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Other works of antiquity written contemporaneously with the New Testament average a black hole if you use that terminology a

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Time period between when they were written and our first extant existing copies of between 500 and 900 years on average

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So a half a millennium to almost full millennium before we have our first copy And so he had said we have about a hundred and twenty four manuscripts of the

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New Testament of New Testament books in the first 300 years Which means the

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New Testament is attested far earlier than any other work of antiquity and In the same way

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We have No manuscript evidence for the

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Book of Mormon or the Book of Abraham none the golden plates were taken back to heaven and And the manuscript that Joseph Smith used to translate the

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Book of Abraham is actually in an Egyptian funerary document, which we can now read easily

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There really isn't a question about this Joseph Smith did get a few words, right? he did translate the

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Egyptian article the as the But the problem is he also translated that one

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Egyptian symbol into like 96 English words which happened to include the It's pretty amazing

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What what what happened there? So apples and oranges again, the

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New Testament's actually a historical document the Book of Mormon and The Book of Abraham are not historical documents at all.

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They're fake frauds They're not what their authors said they were and Yet this man belongs to a church that continues to hold them out as the

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Word of God I'm not exactly sure how that works But there you go. Alright, so that's where we were

40:18

Let's dive back into it or we're never gonna get this done Now I want to return to the biggest problem here the elephant in the room is that black hole between the composition of these texts and our earliest textual witnesses because when scholars talk about Textual criticism and how sure we can be and how few verses are unsure

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They're talking about based on the manuscripts that we have. I mean, it's again just point out.

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I don't know why it seems to be a Lack of familiarity at McClellan's part people trained in textual criticism do not talk about verses now, maybe he's doing that just because the

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Video that he was tearing apart Use some reference to verses But when you're talking about variance you you talk about variance there are there can be multiple variance within a single verse

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Their verses without variance So I don't I don't get it.

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But what he's what he's saying is when you talk about Relative statements and we mentioned in previous programs

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We don't have to do the ask a bunch of textual scholars average their answers thing anymore we have

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CBGM we have we have massive collations that have been computerized and entered into the database and That's never happened before It couldn't have happened until just the past few decades and it really started around 2010

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I mean the folks in Munster have been working on stuff like this for a long time But and everybody knew eventually computers would be used but just how

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They would be used no one really knew and still until Certain individuals came up with this this methodology

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So It's not just a matter. He's saying this is all based upon the manuscripts that we have which is the broadest

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Earliest and most accurate manuscript tradition for any work of antiquity period end of question. You cannot argue that you cannot argue that All right, so we continue on Here are the readings that are unsure and those readings are the readings that are found in the existing

42:43

Manuscripts because many textual critics think you should not do any conjectural amendation

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That should be E M E N D A T I O N S a conjectural amendations and As I said last time, yes,

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I would be one of those say I do not see any reason for conjectural amendation which is where you Propose as the original reading a reading that does not have any basis in the manuscript tradition

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But the vast majority of other works of antiquity with the exception of Homer Especially Plato Pliny Suetonius stuff like that You at times have to use conjectural amendation because you do not have sufficient manuscripts to have a highest a high enough level of confidence

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So when you encounter a major variant just doesn't make any sense Then they'll go with a conjectural amendation

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You know, it seems like what he was saying was this and that would make more sense and you know that kind of thing I don't see any reason to do that in the

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New Testament. We have sufficient and Earliest attest earlier early enough attestation do not have to do that In other words, you should only propose a reading if we have a manuscript that contains that reading, right?

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And this is an enormous assumption This is assuming that every single word that was written in the original

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Autographs of the New Testament is somewhere preserved across the thousands of different manuscripts

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Which was the position of Kurt Aland? and He discussed that many many years ago the concept of tenacity

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And while Bart Ehrman may scoff at it he didn't provide much in the way of Reputation in fact in our debate when

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I asked him Okay, so show us where we don't have the original words He again points the same that there's only one reference that they'll refer to in in Peter Anakai Enoch it

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Does not impact anything theologically or anything like that and that's all I could give us because the fact the matter is

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I suppose a Someone that really wanted to put some work into it might be able to come up with maybe five places

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Where you could at least try to make an argument That now it just doesn't seem like any of our manuscripts have the original reading here

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But you'd really be pushing it to do that and that's that's probably like five words out of a hundred and thirty eight thousand in the

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New Testament Which would be better than ninety nine point five percent accuracy by the way. I'd mention that in passing but So he needs to recognize

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McClellan needs to recognize if you're going to deny tenacity then You're the one making the assumption you're the one making the assumption that the

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Most broadly and earliest attested manuscript tradition of any work of antiquity

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Is not tenacious and Would be liable to lose there is not a single word

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Original readings, I guess my hand touched the touchpad, which is why I don't like touch That's that's the assumption he's making that was composed by a

46:12

New Testament author writing an original manuscript that was lost In that black hole between the original composition of the text and our earliest textual witness.

46:21

So again every Work of antiquity has a time period between the original composition

46:30

Which would not be in the same year for all the New Testament. I mean, you've got multiple authors multiple times and their first manuscript copies and what he's saying is

46:42

Stuff might have been lost and hey as a Mormon he has to believe that Many fact he should say many plain and precious truths have been removed from the

46:50

Bible But he knows he can't back that up And he knows many plain and precious words have been moved around in the

46:59

Book of Mormon to There you go that sort of causes a bit of a problem that is a dogma

47:05

There are no data that support that in fact I would argue that the data argue directly against that because the further we go back in time in our

47:14

Manuscripts the more likely a given verse is to have a variant. Okay, what he's talking about there is the assertion and There have been studies on it, but I've not seen

47:30

Royce comes as close as you can In his magisterial work on the

47:37

New Testament papyri but even he would come to the conclusion that The idea is once you get into a period of establishment establishment the

47:53

Christian faith No longer under persecution from the Roman Empire. That's 313 AD and Then especially you start getting after the fall of the

48:02

Western half of the Roman Empire You get the monasteries and the monks copying manuscripts and things like that That you get a standardization of the text.

48:15

That's somewhat true and it's standardization especially of a certain form of the

48:22

Latin text The Greek text became less and less important over time in the West until the

48:28

Reformation But the idea is well the you know, the papyri all these these wild all these wild variations.

48:36

That's not really the case Though if you are to look at the differences between them you are looking at manuscripts that are being copied during a time period where They very well could be being copied in a place that was illegal to possess them

48:54

Which means you don't get to have professional scribes doing that That's why Sinaiticus Vaticanus they pop up after the

49:02

Peace of the Church in 313 where you can actually have professional scribes for doing the work now you look at I've always used p72 as an example

49:14

The author of p72 ever heard the theory that if when you're writing in handwriting or Printing cursive.

49:23

I know no one reads cursive anymore That if the line goes up It's not a lined piece of paper if the line lines tend to go up That means you're happy as the lines tend to go down.

49:36

You're sad Did anyone else hear that? I'm just I must be really really old But I remember hearing a lot of that and so p72 which is our earliest handwritten copy of 1st 2nd

49:48

Peter and Jude The scribe must have been happy because the the lines go up a couple years ago

49:56

We did an impromptu unofficial tour of the manuscripts in the Bible Museum in Washington when

50:03

I was speaking at the g3 local regional thing there and They wouldn't let us do a real thing

50:10

So I just sort of showed up and our people just found me and then we literally had you know 150 250 people walking around and I'd stand next to a manuscript and start talking about it

50:24

And they had a the standard facsimile. It wasn't the actual one, but standard facsimile of p72, which is the one that I saw

50:33

Oh Hold on I have this up so I might as well

50:42

Oh Where'd it go? Here it is Let me see, okay.

50:54

No other direction Other direction. Come on. Come on. Come on Back back.

51:02

I say there we go. Oh This is where this is worth playing as well, let me just throw this in here for the fun of it

51:14

Here is that amazing Q &A question That I asked

51:21

Bart Ehrman's 2009's is 15 years ago now and I almost interrupted him before he gave us this incredible statement but here's the most widely read critic of the

51:39

New Testament in the English -speaking world today and And Listen to what he says when

51:45

I ask him this question. Ready? There we go on the unbelievable radio program in London You discussed the length of time that exists between the writing of Paul's letter to the

51:58

Galatians and the first extant copy that being 150 years You described this time period as enormous

52:07

That's a quote could you tell us what term you would use to describe the time period between say the original writings of Plutonius or Tacitus or Pliny and their first extant manuscript copies very enormous

52:19

Sir, ginormous would be a good one ginormous ginormous. Okay Jack, I mean ginormous doesn't cover it the

52:27

New Testament. We have much earlier attestation than for any other book from antiquity That's it

52:33

The New Testament we have much earlier attestation than for any other work of antiquity.

52:40

I Almost interrupted him and Kept him from saying that And I'm very glad that I didn't do that but here

52:51

I Can see it over here. Here we go. Dee -dee -dee -dee -dee -dee -dee Come on.

53:06

I went past it. Okay. Oh All these fancy -dancy

53:15

Graphic stuff I put in here okay, here is p72 and I Don't worry about the background stuff.

53:29

There's p72 you can see the lines the they go up on the right -hand side and You can see the the nomena sacra here.

53:39

For example is the second Peter 1 1 and The Granville Sharp construction there our great

53:49

God and Savior Jesus Christ Now our God and Savior Jesus Christ second Peter 1 when the other ones tell you through their team anyway

53:55

Here are these Manuscripts that we possess today and this is from around the year 200.

54:03

So this would be written within about 120 years of the

54:10

Original that we we have today, but you'll notice that that's probably not a professional scribe

54:17

If it was he wasn't all that good or maybe he was just only used to doing business stuff like that But the point is it's not a super professional hand in these earliest manuscripts.

54:29

And so People say ah, that means there is all this variation, but the reality is though This should look familiar to Rich he's seen it.

54:39

This is the very page that Rich and I went and saw in 1993 in Denver At the

54:50

Papal Treasures exhibit when we I was debating gerrymatid ticks and on the papacy and all the rest of stuff and We almost got ourselves thrown out of the

55:00

Papal Treasures exhibit because this is all I came to see in the first place I didn't care about the tiaras and the diamonds and the furs and all the rest that stuff and What's amazing is if I had had

55:14

My Nestle Allens back then 26 or 27 edition in 93 a prior 26

55:24

Yeah, I was 26. I could have recreated The readings that you see on the page right now just with my

55:36

Nessie on text just with the amazingly brilliant a notation system that they've developed for that particular text and if you translate p72 and You translate today's

55:50

Nessie all in 28th edition 29th should be coming out fairly soon They're not going to give you different different teaching different meanings in in any way shape or form

56:01

It's just it's just not going to happen so I Need to go well just for the fun of it

56:13

Here's I mean I get to the homosexual stuff today

56:21

Here's here's p75 This is one most accurate Papyri we have and what's fascinating about p75

56:32

We know that it has a common ancestor with Codex Vaticanus, which is from around 325 to 350

56:42

So when p75 and Codex be agree on a reading

56:49

That is a reading it goes back to at least 125 AD So very very very early in the quote -unquote black hole so in other words there are ways to shed light

57:02

Back into the period before your earliest manuscripts when you have multiple manuscripts later on So in this manuscript and be agree than their common ancestor which has to be earlier than p75

57:18

Had that reading you see so there are ways That's why I was looking at p45 to do the same type of thing in Looking into that dark period before the first manuscripts that we possess

57:31

But what's fascinating about p75? I am NOT going to get much farther than The fascinating thing about p75 is

57:39

We know how this scribe copied This text and you go.

57:48

What do you mean? Well if you were copying a text if I handed you 1984 since we all need to be reading it since the left's using it as a textbook these days

58:02

If I handed you 1984 and I asked you to hand copy a page of 1984

58:10

Would you do it word by word? Would you do it by short phrases would you do it by sentences?

58:18

How good your memory? That's not something we do a lot of we cut and paste anymore

58:24

But in my younger days that was something you did you had to copy from books on a typewriter or whatever else it might be

58:32

We know how the scribe did it you know you know how we know because he did it letter by letter He didn't do it word by word.

58:40

He didn't do it phrase by phrase all of the errors He makes are single letter mistakes, and so that ain't fast

58:51

But it's really accurate Fascinating that you can you can look at that and go oh wow

59:00

I did that there's p75 Here's p66. I Love this particular picture because you can see what a codex would look like a papyrus codex would look like you know the the damage to the

59:16

Outer portion because the the spines on the left there, and you can see everything along There is just fine because that's where it's best protected, but the upper corner and then the lower outer corner

59:27

That's where you always get damage in These these papyri there's p66.

59:33

That's also from John one and there's There's that and then Here's my p45 which is on the wall behind me, so we'll skip that one

59:41

There is p46 here this collection of Paul's writings and notice the exact same shape Yeah, that works.

59:48

This is one of the earliest collections of Paul's Epistles which did by the way include

59:55

Hebrew We won't go into cross Philippians There's me holding p91 from down the quarries

01:00:05

State University blah blah blah I'm trying to get through this Here's Sinaiticus, and this does give you an idea.

01:00:12

That's what Sinaiticus looked like when I saw it in 2005 in London Very much, that's exactly what it looked like at that time hard to see from there, but check it out here

01:00:24

That's not that's not printed folks. That's hand -copied, and that's what I mean by the difference between the papyri being done by non -professionals and What could be done after the piece of the church in 313?

01:00:38

When you have parchment and you have professionals and and stuff like that it's

01:00:43

Amazing what that looks like There's Codex Vaticanus, there's

01:00:50

Codex B. That's the one that is Related to P75 they both have a common ancestor there

01:00:59

There's Codex Alexandrinus, and then what I need to get to here real quick. There's 124

01:01:05

Manuscripts which I've been talking about for ever and ever and ever, but I want to get to my Don't don't have the volume up.

01:01:13

We're gonna go by old Bart Ehrman here on the envelope and Here's what

01:01:18

I want to show you is I? created this graphic all right and It's important to understand

01:01:30

The Gospels and epistles the New Testament were written at various places at various times different authors writing to different communities and Some for written written for distribution within the community such as the

01:01:46

Gospels others were epistles sent to specific locations and So then copies would be made and sent elsewhere

01:01:57

Often Christians traveling of one place to another would encounter a book they had not heard of before and hence Would make a copy to bring back to their own fellowship and though a graphic It would represent how many different lines of transmission there were and how often they were interconnected would rapidly become

01:02:14

Useless due to the number of manuscripts would be on the screen the fact of that complex history of the transmission should be remembered

01:02:22

Over time single books would be gathered into collections This is especially true of the

01:02:28

Gospels and the epistles of Paul as we saw Hence, we have p75 p66 gospel collections p46

01:02:35

We just looked at containing the epistles of Paul all dating from the middle to the end of the second

01:02:41

Century these collections would then come together until finally after the piece of the church in 313

01:02:47

You could have entire copies of scriptures such as we find in Codex Sinaiticus Codex Vaticanus But the important point to note is the multifocality of this process

01:02:57

Multiple authors writing at multiple times to multiple audiences produced a text that appears in history already displaying multiple lines of transmission

01:03:07

This results in the textual variants. We much must study, but it also illustrates the vital importance of What I talked about earlier and that is the tenacity of the text to have an original reading simply disappear

01:03:28

If you had a single line of transmission Then you could do that But when you have multiple lines of transmission

01:03:37

Then the confidence that all the original readings are still in manuscript for a bit tradition

01:03:44

Increases tremendously and Kurt Allen certainly knows more about the manuscripts than even

01:03:50

Bart Ehrman. He knew he's obviously gone now and yet, he believed in the tenacity of the text and It has been well said and I'm sorry the name is skipping my mind at the moment

01:04:08

I'd give due credit if I Wasn't just spacing on the name, but there's an individual

01:04:17

Who you came up with an illustration and Dan Wallace has used it and I've used it over the years what we're looking at we look at the text in the

01:04:26

New Testament the manuscripts in New Testament is like having a 1 ,000 piece jigsaw puzzle and We have 1 ,100 pieces what

01:04:38

McClellan is suggesting is we might only have 990 the reality is

01:04:46

The later manuscripts get longer It's the expansion of piety primarily.

01:04:51

Sometimes it's conflation You know if if a guy had two manuscripts of Romans and there's a difference

01:04:57

He'll put both of them in his and so it gets longer that way, but it's normally the expansion of piety

01:05:03

Titles of Jesus things like that they get longer over time But I think it's vitally important to recognize this

01:05:13

Historical reality in light of the claim that McClellan is making

01:05:19

About this these black this black hole this this period of time There in The early manuscripts, let's see if we can at least we will be able at least finish this one up Ability in our earliest manuscripts than in our later

01:05:37

Manuscripts because as these manuscripts circulate more widely and as people are comparing them

01:05:43

They start to harmonize them. They start to standardize a textual tradition Well, I would just point out that if you're specifically to talk about harmonization standardization that creates variance

01:05:56

That that creates variance where you you Take a reading from here and take a read from there put them together and it's and expand it so that actually creates a variance

01:06:06

It's it's not that's not what we see in the papyri Reuss's study

01:06:13

Demonstrated that and now with CBGM we'll be able to I think do more work in that specific area

01:06:19

I don't know of anybody that is yet Especially because we don't don't have the entire New Testament to compare things with so there is a big assumption

01:06:27

Among more conservative textual critics that that black hole has no differences in it

01:06:33

No differences it know what we are what we what Curt Holland I Think demonstrates very clearly is in it's not that there are no differences

01:06:43

It's that the original readings remain tenacious and are transmitted through there through the multiple lines of transmission if That were not the case if there was major textual disruption

01:06:59

Then what we would have is we would have manuscripts with wild variation

01:07:06

Entire stories not found anyplace else We you know we looked at p52

01:07:14

We might find a manuscript with a whole different story of what Gia says to Pilate in John chapter 18 never happened

01:07:23

We never found anything like that The the closest thing you can get and it's really not from the dark period at all is

01:07:30

Bessie Canterbury Jensen's Codex D. Which I call the Living Bible the early church where the

01:07:36

The scribe was just willing to just make stuff up as he went along He tells us how many stairs

01:07:42

Peter descended to get to the street after the angel freedom prison okay, but The very fact that we can recognize that that scribe was doing weird stuff

01:07:53

Demonstrates the tenacity and the consistency of The rest of the scribes that weren't making stuff up and editing things and taking stuff out and everything else

01:08:03

So I would say that McClellan needs to be able to demonstrate Needs to be able to get more than just agnosticism

01:08:13

And he might find himself the exact same position of Bart Ehrman found himself in Well, where don't we have the original well

01:08:19

Is it Enoch or you know one little place over here someplace? You would think that there would be hundreds of examples.

01:08:27

There aren't Not there and that assumption is wildly irresponsible. I and that's where it just ended

01:08:35

Wildly irresponsible. No, it's not Dr. Dan McClellan it flows from actually studying

01:08:45

Textual criticism on a level that I don't think you have I'll just be honest with that. I just don't think you have

01:08:52

All right, so through a lot of stuff out there with that that's cool that's fine

01:09:00

Got enough time here to Go ahead and get to what I said. I was gonna get to I want to at least start it

01:09:06

I hate to tell people we're gonna look at this and then I don't do it because I spent time Looking at everything else under the

01:09:13

Sun But here's another one of these and then again, I guess these are tick -tock videos. That's why they're so narrow.

01:09:20

What are they called? Anyway, I don't know

01:09:30

What I After I started responding to McClellan initially I Went to go look for The link to you know, cuz

01:09:41

I type up the blog article. I Themselves and as I'm going through his videos trying to find the one

01:09:51

I responded to I Start seeing all this stuff on homosexuality and I stop and I look at some of them.

01:09:57

I'm like, oh This guy's a full -blown progressivist revisionist which again

01:10:05

Makes me wonder how much influence he has had in the fact that Hey rich and I were in Salt Lake City The first year that the gay

01:10:19

Mormons showed up and we watched the

01:10:26

Mormons attending conference It was like these people had leprosy, okay

01:10:31

I mean it would just go right around them and I mean, oh really seriously

01:10:38

Yeah, it was yeah, it was it was amazing we've seen over the past quarter century

01:10:48

The major changes in Mormonism on this subject now quarter century is not a long period of time as far as Church history is concerned.

01:11:00

It is for Mormon history And The reality is what this has demonstrated is that Mormonism does not actually produce a

01:11:14

Christian worldview Because it doesn't have the Christian God If you have a

01:11:21

God who evolves and changes and and everything else You know what?

01:11:26

I said the first missionaries I ever talked to Someday, you're gonna need to know the

01:11:32

God who does not change and I hope myself or someone else will be there to testify to you of who he is as I have in our meeting so far and And that was the best stuff

01:11:43

I could ever said to them and it's the same stuff that I say to them and Mormonism because of its intense subjectivity because of its testimony and things like that cannot provide the objective bulwark to be able to survive the crashing waves of the society and I don't know what

01:12:04

Mormonism is gonna look like In the future, but if there is a major schism and if some prophet like guy comes along one thing

01:12:15

I will predict is That the new Mormonism will reject

01:12:21

Where the current church is clearly going. Oh, I know they're going slowly I know we can't change our doctrine of marriage and I We've watched all the denominations doing this we get it.

01:12:34

We get it But I know too many people that live in Utah And they tell me you wouldn't believe what's going on up here

01:12:43

So, yeah, so I'm not sure How much influence he had?

01:12:50

Or has not had obviously this movement began long before he started doing anything, but it is fascinating to me to hear a

01:13:01

Mormon scholar Making the arguments of the revisionists from progressive

01:13:09

Protestant Christianity and Roman Catholic for that matter Really really interesting.

01:13:15

So here we go. Let's start into this because I Don't know how many times

01:13:22

I have to say this We have to know this stuff. This is the 1946 movie

01:13:28

Okay, you know the the, you know, I Mentioned to you there. They're going on it. I didn't mention

01:13:34

I forgot. I only did this on Twitter. There's a 1946 road tour starting

01:13:40

I'm gonna miss it because they'll actually be here in Phoenix While I'm still in Colorado.

01:13:48

I'm sorry. I wouldn't be invited, but I wouldn't mind trying to crash it

01:13:55

But the the people behind the 1946 movie which is has been a stellar failure And and the reason is they won't let it out

01:14:02

You know, I assume someday It'll be on YouTube. It'll actually be viewable by the majority of humanity, but they've been holding on to it because Once you watch it and I paid to watch it.

01:14:15

I paid to to watch the whole thing It is horrific,

01:14:21

I mean as far as actually presenting any kind of scholarly argument it is laughable

01:14:29

It is a massive attempt to create emotional Response to these individuals in the film.

01:14:37

That's that's that's all it is What it what it tries to do in redefining it redefining arsonic wait days

01:14:44

Again we have said over and over again Bob Gagnon has said Michael Brown has said I have said we will debate

01:14:51

We will debate the people in the film. We'll debate the scholars in the film We'll debate scholars that they want to come up with whatever will debate the thesis this film.

01:15:00

They'll never do it They will never do it. They can't they know they can't

01:15:06

They know it's indefensible. They absolutely know it so They're gonna be going

01:15:14

From city to city. Hey, look up the 1946 movie comm see if it's coming to your area go ask them the right questions

01:15:23

And ask them why they won't defend the thesis of the film in debate against published authors who have been talking about this subject for decades and have

01:15:39

Said we will debate you on this subject Bob Gagnon has said

01:15:44

I'll do it Michael Brown has said I'll do it.

01:15:49

I've said I'll do it But they won't but what what

01:15:56

McClellan's presenting is pretty much the same thing Which is astonishing.

01:16:01

It really really really is. Okay dive into it here The word homosexuals did not appear in our

01:16:07

English Bibles until the year 1946 the old translation was abusers of themselves with mankind

01:16:14

Seems kind of open -ended the word homosexual appearing in the 20th century when contrasted with previous translations

01:16:19

Isn't really sound argument to invalidate the translation It's like me using the word immoral didn't appear to the 20th century and previously it was fornicators

01:16:27

What it really boils down to is is the translation accurate? All right. All right Let's see it and we've got to use the experts in the field in order to assess this

01:16:35

One of them is a leading New Testament Greek scholar. Dr. Bill mounts Mou nce.

01:16:40

Mou nce Dr. William mounts the PhD educated Greek scholar and he wrote the book on basics of biblical

01:16:47

Greek He wrote an article on the meaning of the word arson acquaintance, which has been translated to homosexual

01:16:52

He says the Association of arsene and quintae from Leviticus 2013 or meta arsonos comemanos quintae goonae kian one who has intercourse with a man as with a woman the

01:17:04

Definition Leviticus 2013 which the word arson acquaintance is sourced from is if a man lies with a male as with a woman both of them have

01:17:12

Committed an abomination doesn't really matter how we label it what it boils down to is. What is the activity being described?

01:17:18

It's two people of the same sex engaging in sexual activity. No, it absolutely is not

01:17:23

Yes, it absolutely is That was a well done presentation from the sources and it was absolutely accurate and So now you get to hear how someone who calls himself a

01:17:40

Bible scholar perverts the Bible. How do you how do you do this? and I've been saying since For years and years years, but especially in the 1946 movie started trying to raise money to do the 1946 movie thing.

01:17:55

I Have been saying to Christians. I've preached sermons we just put together a

01:18:02

Playlist for YouTube that I somehow we're gonna get on our YouTube thing and Maybe I can just try to grab it by actions looking at my my thing right now.

01:18:13

It's it's at the top of my Twitter stuff But it's all my sermons from apologia and I have preached on this subject

01:18:23

There is a specific there may be more than one Sermon about the 1946 moving the movie the meaning of our synchronized and I've been saying for a long long time everybody mom's dad's grandpa's kids going to school

01:18:38

Everybody in our society has to know the truth about this subject. It's not fun

01:18:44

My grandparents never even talked about it They didn't have to We can't get around it and If you're gonna be willing to give up your job and your livelihood or Maybe your freedom in the not -too -distant future.

01:19:00

Then you have to know why you're doing this not just by tradition You have to know what scripture says what the previous guy said is exactly true

01:19:10

Okay, what the previous guy said was exactly true That's where our son of Cortez comes from LaVegas 2013.

01:19:17

They've both committed an abominable abominable deed It's both partners

01:19:23

That's where the term came from and that's what it's describing. He was exactly right.

01:19:28

How do you twist that? Well, you go get your PhD from an Ivy League school and here's how it's gonna be done

01:19:34

It's describing one man taking the insertive role in an act of male same -sex intercourse

01:19:41

Okay. Well, let's just stop right there for a second. Let's say You take that you're talking about One of the two despite the fact

01:19:49

LaVegas 2013 says they are both they are both Here where to go.

01:19:55

Oh popped over there. Thanks They are both

01:20:02

Did you do to do here? Here's the term? and father oi, if there is a man who lies with a male as Those who lie with a woman said that's clearly sexual intercourse and This is a man engaging in sexual intercourse with a man in the way that you would with a woman both am father oi

01:20:35

Shanaam in the Hebrew. They have both Committed a detestable act

01:20:45

To Eva they Shall surely be put to death their blood guiltiness is upon them

01:20:54

Okay. So here is arsenos coitin in the

01:21:00

Greek septuagen, so chrome a they to sleep with meta with arsenos male coitin have to bed to a sexual intercourse as with a gunaikos woman

01:21:16

There is the Greek septuagen. That's the background of The utilization that you'll find in 1st

01:21:23

Corinthians 6 and 1st Timothy 1 in Paul who May have coined this he may be the one that took these two terms.

01:21:32

It may have been a rabbi before him We don't know There's only one use of arsenic oi taste

01:21:42

That could be prior to Paul most feel Paul's the first but there's one that depending on where you date it

01:21:49

I remember back in 2001 using the TLG CD -ROM the

01:21:56

Saras Lingua Greca in writing the same -sex controversy to do those studies and I put a footnote in the book that gave you the other references possible in regards to where Paul got this idea

01:22:08

But that's where it's coming from And it specifically says both not one

01:22:15

It does not say one they both Okay, so you're he's twisting the text twisting the text right there in front of you

01:22:24

It's right there. How does he do that? Well, he does it by looking at These terms right here

01:22:37

Malakoi and arsenic oi tie in 1st Corinthians 1st Corinthians 6 9 and just to remind you the

01:22:45

ESV Interprets Malakoi and arsenic oi tie

01:22:53

In such a way as to translate the two together as simply homosexuals

01:23:01

Now we've we've discussed this before and there have been people said oh, it's just terrible. They shouldn't do that the understanding of the

01:23:10

ESV translation committee and and others is that this is referring to to Sinful behaviors

01:23:22

One is the penetrating Aggressive the other is the receiving feminine

01:23:31

The Malakoi the soft the feminine Now others would argue

01:23:37

No, you've got utah moikoi utah

01:23:42

Malakoi utah arsenic oi tie so since you've got a Consistency all the way through with pornoi with idolatry with adultery effeminate homosexuals that Malakoi Malakas is a separate category of sinful sexual behavior

01:24:08

The soft the effeminate maybe cross -dressers You know what we call transgender today, whatever whatever else

01:24:17

So there have been those who have disagreed with the ESV interpretation. Okay, fine. I Don't think it's something you can be dogmatic about you just need to understand

01:24:27

That even as the ESV translates it it's translating both of them as having to do with the one act

01:24:36

That is described in Leviticus 2013 that both Both Did I say both both?

01:24:45

Are to be put to death for in Leviticus 2013 and The most you could you know, the most you could really do with this interpretation of 1st

01:24:58

Corinthians 6 9 is to say Paul is just simply wanting to close any doors and To say the entire idea of this behavior is

01:25:11

Is Going to preclude you from the kingdom of heaven and by the way,

01:25:18

I just want to point out in Passing That what is said here

01:25:27

Neither sexually immoral or idolaters or adulterers or effeminate or homosexuals nor thieves nor the greedy

01:25:37

Play a necktie Um That is an attitude

01:25:45

That's not an action That is a disposition and so the other thing and you all can go

01:25:54

Last summer was last September when I was in Pennsylvania. I forgot exactly what it was.

01:25:59

I think it was September when I debated a self -professed

01:26:05

Christian homosexual This is what it came down to was we dug into this text and his whole idea was

01:26:14

It's it can't have anything to do with orientation Isn't greed an orientation? It isn't that isn't that whole isn't the whole idea of covetousness

01:26:27

Play a necktie in that what it's about it is It is so That's what we're talking about here

01:26:37

Is what's being said there so let's go back to wellin and Continue to demonstrate how wrong he is

01:26:45

That is an important distinction Because there is a different word that is used in first Corinthians 6 9 to refer to the man who takes the receptive role

01:26:56

It's Maliki in the plural and this means something like soft ones and it's a pejorative that could be used to refer to Men who are effeminates or who are soft or who do a lot of things that are considered unmanly in the ancient world and I should just mention in passing that Paul If you do if you make that strong distinction

01:27:20

Says they don't inherit the kingdom of heaven either Right So you're actually you're not you're not accomplishing anything here

01:27:32

Even if you take the ESV and these are both referring to homosexuals that means they're there

01:27:39

That still recognizes What was said in Leviticus 2013 that they are there their blood guiltiness both of them is upon them it again, but part of this is we are

01:27:55

Are Looking at this from a perspective that I doubt

01:28:04

McClellan would have been taught in his education and that is We think there needs to be a consistency and a harmony between What is found in?

01:28:18

Leviticus 20 and what Paul is writing in in first Corinthians 6 and the vast majority of theological education today

01:28:25

That's rejected This is just Paul's understanding. There doesn't have to be any type of harmonization here.

01:28:33

In fact harmonization is bad it's better to have tension in the text and blah blah blah blah blah and and so That but the problem again for me is

01:28:47

That you can't make heads or tails Out of LDS scripture in LDS history and LDS relation understanding of how the

01:28:56

Book of Mormon for example relates to the Bible If you don't have that understanding that I just enunciated if you walk into it with the all they're all contradictory each other

01:29:08

Mormonism implodes upon itself. It just it just collapses That's why

01:29:14

I just I sit here and go I don't get it I don't get it. And one of those things is taking the receptive role in an act of male same -sex intercourse

01:29:22

The word also makes no reference whatsoever to female same -sex intercourse

01:29:27

So to suggest that this word refers to both participants in any same -sex intercourse is flatly false

01:29:38

Okay Again, if even if you accept the distinction

01:29:46

Paul Flatly said neither one of them receives the kingdom of God so he's wrong as can be

01:29:54

Secondly, no one is saying that arson a coitus is in reference to lesbianism but Romans 1 is

01:30:04

And so This this seems to be well, you'll see where it goes and that is an important distinction to maintain

01:30:15

Because it means rendering homosexual Expands the group that is being referred to exponentially additionally the word homosexual today

01:30:27

Overwhelmingly refers to people who identify as having a homosexual Orientation which does not necessarily mean that person has ever engaged in homosexual sex

01:30:38

So this is again. This is your standard Ivy League Progressive that this wouldn't there was no one in the state of Utah The first the first general conference when

01:30:59

I stood outside And started passing out tracts there was no one in the state of Utah that would have had any idea what he was just talking

01:31:10

LDS or non Nobody would have had any idea what what in the world is he talking about here and What you have here is this is when you when you don't let scripture define your categories when you instead limit scripture and take as your ultimate authority the

01:31:36

Perspectives of culture and oh well now we have homosexual orientation and blah blah blah Hey, remember something the

01:31:42

Romans chapter 1 they burned with desire one toward another One toward another that was mutuality that is homosexuality you can stand on your head

01:31:55

You can do whatever you want to try to do And that's what he's gonna do. He wants to stand on his head and make room for these communities and all the rest of stuff

01:32:05

But in the process you have to twist scripture You have to close your eyes to scripture. You have to close your eyes to the consistency of scripture

01:32:14

Everybody in this audience who is a Bible believing Christian go ahead and take that down There's a

01:32:20

Bible believing Christian needs to understand What first Corinthians chapter 6 is about how it's related a little bit except chapter 20 you need to be able to go to first Timothy chapter 1 and demonstrate that Paul uses arson a coy tie as An expansion on the commandment against adultery he includes it within that as Part of the

01:32:45

Ten Commandments themselves. We need to understand these things. We need to understand

01:32:50

Matthew chapter 19 We didn't understand that from the beginning God created the male and female the marriage between one man one woman and that therefore to demand celebration of the rebellion against these things is

01:33:04

To ask us to deny Christ, that's what it's about. That's what it's all about. So You can

01:33:13

You can sit there and and everybody I've ever encountered that throws out these arguments I'm a Bible scholar is then you start digging into it.

01:33:20

It's like you ain't a good one Seem to don't seem to be deriving your your your your actual position from the text you seem to be enforcing it on the text and That's what you see going on here, so So there you go

01:33:37

All right, so we we covered the waterfront there. We covered a lot of stuff we we looked at some manuscripts and we did all sorts of fun stuff today and Even even got the

01:33:49

Eastern Orthodox folks mad at us, which is there's nothing really new about that. So Who knows what we'll do

01:33:55

Lord willing on Thursday. What do you what do you? What? Oh I Already did it once I already did it once.

01:34:06

Okay, I gotta do my Vanna white thing Please buy your raffle tickets before the end of the month

01:34:14

There, how's that? Is that you you may not ask me to do that again in the future you may want to come in here and record something and then at the end of this show you can just drop it in there and Okay.

01:34:32

Okay, that's cool. That's fine with me. You do whatever you want. You do it I'm even in my my my

01:34:39

Fox my foxy kitty shirt So everybody can make fun of me here's

01:34:46

Yeah, where's the bird? Yeah, you see there's there's there's foxy kitty and this is my this is he's one of my three cats and I sent rich a picture last night because rich has a cat that looks very very much like Fox if he's twice the size

01:35:01

He's huge You say he's like 16 pounds and Fox is about eight and a half so he's

01:35:06

Yeah, he's but I walked out. I walked into the kitchen last night. My wife's away right now

01:35:12

She's visiting a friend back east. I walk out of the kitchen and here's Fox laying there on the tile and There's feathers everywhere.

01:35:21

There's blood all over the floor and there's this dead bird Right in front of him and he's just looking at me like he does the head.

01:35:29

He does not know the word guilt at All instead it was like hey dad, look what I did. I Got what these things have been torturing me for a long time and I got one and I was

01:35:40

I was hoping that also in the back of his mind as was and They don't taste nearly as good as I expected them to When you give us food, there's no feathers or nothing.

01:35:49

It's uh, it's a lot better. It's like yeah There's a reason for that buddy. So yeah,

01:35:54

I was down my hands and knees Cleaning up the floor last night But I sent that picture to rich because his kitty doesn't go outside.

01:36:02

My kitty goes outside and eats birds. So Yeah, you don't have that problem and believe you me your kitty wishes you had that problem

01:36:12

Very very but put him in front of a window with birds outside and you'll see how much he oh you do know

01:36:19

Yes, okay, if he ever goes straight through that window sometime, you'll know what what was going on there.

01:36:24

Anyways We could have stopped about four minutes ago. Alright, thanks for watching dividing line. We'll see you next time.