Life Ethics - Abortion, Contraception, and Genetic Manipulation

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00:02
Well, good evening everybody.
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We're We're going to be pressed for time to finish tonight because we have a lot to do But I will do my best to try to get us through everything tonight.
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We are going to be looking at the subject of life ethics However, before we get to the lesson, I want to talk about the quiz How many of you have not yet taken the quiz? Okay, all right.
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Well, I'm not going to give you all the answers.
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I Also know there's a few people online who I think have not finished it Even though we do have quite a few who did and the average grade is very good There was one question specifically that created a lot of difficulties and that was the fill-in-the-blank question because it was a direct quote from the book and Some folks were you would use another word that meant the same thing But it wasn't correct because it wasn't the direct quote from the book however I did go back and I was a little gracious to those who put a word that meant the exact same thing Because I know fill-in-the-blank is a little difficult sometimes So I was very gracious on that so you may want to go back and recheck your grade if you haven't If you miss if you missed that one The other one was the one about Christian ethics being a combination and I realized after I started getting the rate returns in that there could be some confusion between my Lecture and what the book says So I want to clarify something Dr.
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Ray in the book Says that Christian ethics is a combination of virtues and principles.
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I But I have been using the word law a lot because I've been talking about the law of God as the as as God's Explanation of his character as he expresses his character through his law right his his moral righteous Characters expressed in his law.
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Therefore.
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I've been using the word law So a lot of you chose the answer that had law And I get that and I can imagine you were getting that from thinking of how I was talking about that but the book describes the Ethics as a combination of virtues and principles and here's here's Ray's point and I think it's a good one.
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He said if you consider the concept of virtue which in our first class I I talked about goodness and that is One of the ways in which we can define virtue what its virtue virtue is that which is good that which is right that which Holy good and and and just right so those two things work together Virtue is where we get our understanding of good and then the principles that work off of that Are like this if it is virtuous if life is good then murder Do not murder is A principle based on the virtue that life is good that makes sense stealing is wrong because Property is someone owning something someone having property is a virtue That's a good thing God gives us things and therefore if you take something that doesn't belong to you that thievery the principle is violating the virtue So virtue is that which is good and the principle of the the law is based upon those Virtuous things and this is where we get into arguments about well What about if one virtue is is you know when you got the issue of lying to save a life or something like that? Which virtue? Which trumps right the virtue of life or versus the virtue of truth, right? Because that's why lying is bad because truth is a virtue Right, and so that's the way he's describing it in the textbook and that's why he says Christian ethics is a combination of virtue and Principles and I don't think I explained that very well in the first class as to go along with the book So if you miss that one on the quiz, I I was generous with that one as well I wanted to make I don't ever want you to miss something simply because I haven't explained it.
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Well, but if you did get it Good on you.
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That means you read the book because honestly if you read the book the answers were Several of them were taken directly out of the book.
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So it should have been should have been easy enough But this leads us to tonight Where we are going to talk about the virtue of life Because that's the good that we're going to discuss is the concept of life ethics with the idea that life is a is a general good Life is God created life.
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God created life for flourishing God created life for for a good purpose and therefore life is good and so we are going to address those issues which typically fall under the category of Life ethics and the three that we're going to look at tonight number one is the concept of abortion Certainly in any class that deals with the subject of life you're going to deal with the subject of abortion The second thing we're going to look at is a little bit more Controversial even though abortion is pretty controversial.
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This one may lead to more division within a class like this and that's the concept of reproduction a lot of lot of subcategories fall under that such as things like contraception birth control things like that so that is a that that among Christians tends to be a little bit more of a Difficult place to land, but we'll talk about why in a little while and then the third Category that we're going to look at tonight is one that may be a little bit Might might seem like it's a reach for this class because it's it's it's going to get to areas that we certainly won't be able To dive into very deeply, but that's the subject of genetics Lot of questions right now deal with the ethical issues surrounding the science of genetics Genetically altering human beings genetically altering babies in the womb things like that all kinds of questions arise And it has to do with life Now next week Burt has the has the class and he's going to be talking about death Ethics where he's going to talk about suicide Capital punishment euthanasia so similar to this we're looking tonight at life next week.
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We will look at death And so pretty heavy topics that type to dive into but before we do let's pray Father we thank you for the opportunity to be here tonight to study to seek to conform our understanding of virtue to conform our understanding of goodness to You as you have expressed yourself in your word to live by principles, which are based on these virtues Principles which are informed by the law and word of God and I pray Oh God that we would be better at seeking out scriptural truth as we seek to understand What your word says? We pray all this in Jesus name Amen we are all familiar with the scenario of Young woman just about to finish high school engages in a sexual encounter with her boyfriend and becomes pregnant She was already on her way to success having been accepted into a prestigious school and Is looking forward to a very bright academic future followed by One could only imagine a very lucrative Financial future upon finding out of her pregnancy her boyfriend chooses to abandon her and To make matters worse Her parents are encouraging her to simply get it taken care of and Get on with her promising life She feels alone Afraid and that if she has the baby her life will be over now before we begin to discuss the ethical dilemmas of abortion We must first admit that this is an all too common Story, we've all heard stories.
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Maybe not as elaborate or Descriptive as the one I've just given but we've all heard stories similar to this.
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I have friends Who stand outside of abortion clinics pleading with women not to kill their children.
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I have done that as well and often Those women who are walking into the abortion clinics are being escorted by family members Who are pressuring them? to as I said Get it taken care of It's heart-wrenching to see these young women at times being escorted to Destroy the life that was in their womb simply for the sake of convenience or to expedite a way out of a difficult situation So that's the that sort of sets the stage tonight for our conversation and We're going to look at this from what are the two most Well known sides even though I am going to point out that there is a third side That does not need to be left out but for now we're going to at least just address this from the most basic sides and that is what we would call the pro life position and The what is the other one? We all know Pro choice position.
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That's right.
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Now.
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I said there is a third position and It is what is called the abolitionist position.
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I do want to mention it and I would put it over here abolitionists tend to Separate themselves from the pro-life movement and I'm going to talk about why later but for now for the simple sake of The class we're going to only look at the pro-life and the pro-choice arguments And then we're going to talk about why some of the abolitionist issues if you heard my interview on my podcast Recently, I had an interview with one of the women from the steadfast women ministry she was an abolitionist and she talks about some of her issues with the pro-life movement and there's more if you want to get more out of this you could go and listen to that and and add a little bit of an additional information, but For now, let's just talk about the the two basic camps Ever since the legalization of abortion within the landmark Roe vs.
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Wade decision which happened in the Supreme Court in January of 1973 essentially legalizing abortion on demand Two groups have emerged on either side of this debate the first being the pro-choice Advocates who believe that it is ethically wrong to demand that a woman keep a pregnancy which she does not want and She should have the right to end her pregnancy Now there is there are varying levels of pro-choice But pro-choice always falls into the category of she should be allowed to at some point in her pregnancy There are there are pro-choice advocates who say after a certain point.
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She should no longer be allowed like for instance Who's the who's the Democrat running for the is it Kennedy Robert Kennedy's nephew or something? There's a there's a new Kennedy running for is it was it is that who it is Daisy.
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Well, he argues for a nationwide Abortion ban after 15 weeks All right, so he's not anti abortion He would still be considered pro-choice But he believes that after a certain point it should no longer be legal and so He would still fall under the pro-choice category believes that abortion should be legal He just believes it shouldn't be legal after a certain point the pro-life advocates believe that it is ethically wrong to terminate a pregnancy because a Baby in the womb is a person and has an inherent right to life Getting back to the issue of life ethics so pro-life again saying that because the child is a life it has a inherent right and the child's right to live should be respected pro-choice says the mother has a right to choose and Therefore her right should be Respected this gets back to the issue of virtue and principle because we would argue I think all of us at least on some level would argue that both the right of life and the right of choice are both virtuous We believe in Certain freedoms and we wouldn't want our choices robbed from us We would say on a certain level the right of choice is a Virtue and we would say the right of life is a virtue.
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So this is where the argument Becomes the the debate where I'm going to show you later, which I don't think this is even fair But this is where the argument is because if this is why you you never see a pro-abortion advocate.
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It's always pro-choice Because they're arguing for the virtue What they see is the virtue of choice They're not arguing for abortion or death.
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You don't have pro-life pro-death that's what you would think would be the opposite and even though I would argue really is what it is, but that's why the language matters, that's why the Nomenclature meaning the names people use for things matters the pro-choice What kind of American? Would not say we're all for choice, right? We want to have every choice.
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We want to have be able to choose anything and So they don't call themselves typically pro-abortion.
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They call themselves Pro-choice because they're trying to find a virtue upon which people will support that's the whole reason and There is a sense as I said where there are varying degrees to both sides I want you to I want to be clear.
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I don't I don't always tip my hat in this class this quickly But I just be very clear.
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I fall about as close to an abolitionist position.
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I am here as About as close as you can get so I and but I Every time we discuss any ethical issue.
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I'm going to be fair to all sides and say this is what they say But don't think for a second.
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I'm endorsing in any way abortion when I'm giving their side Fair enough, okay I'm gonna argue I'm gonna tell you what they say and why they say it but just know I don't know I don't always show my cards, but tonight I'll show my cards.
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Okay, I'm over here but getting back So when I say there are varying degrees, this is their argument Not all pro-life advocates would say that all abortion is wrong Many would allow for abortion in so-called extreme cases such as rape or incest or things like that Likewise as I just mentioned some pro-choice advocates say that there's a point in which abortion should no longer be an option as we just said with a Person running for president saying it shouldn't be allowed after 15 weeks So just because someone says I'm pro-life or I'm pro-choice doesn't mean that they personally Do not make exceptions to their stated positions You rarely find those who say Abortion should never be allowed for any reason even though there are those who say that and you rarely find a person that say says Abortion should be allowed for any reason even though there are people who say that and this is why the use of language is so important you have to listen to what people are saying and listen to their arguments and understand this phrase you You don't have to write this down, but this is a truism that you may want to remember he who defines the terms wins the argument He who defines the terms Wins the argument and the person who defined this as pro-choice did so for the purpose of winning the argument because they wanted the support and The support was not going to come for a pro-abortion argument But it would come for a pro-choice argument and what are the pro-choice? Arguments, I'm going to give you a few and these come from MIT You guys know The was at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, right? Am I right? That's MIT well, this is the MIT dot edu slash pro-choice slash reasons This was reasons giving given on the MIT website by students of MIT.
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So these are intelligent young people who have degrees in Science in general because that's an Institute of technology.
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I want you to hear their arguments.
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These are the arguments given number one I am pro-choice because I don't think there is any reason why a woman should have to face all the Consequences from something she did not do alone if a guy can get a woman pregnant and then run away There's no reason why she should be the one responsible for everything Having more options puts a woman on more equal footing with men Instead of being someone of whom they can take advantage in addition I believe it is best for a child to not be born at all than to be born hated to a mother who is forced to have him because she has no choice and Not because she wants the child that is The argument again from a young woman from this is an undergraduate Undergraduate student in chemistry, so she's not a philosopher or a theologian, but this is her thoughts One she says the guy can get out of it.
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Why can't she if he can run away? She should be able to run away she shouldn't be forced to deal with all the consequences if he doesn't have any consequences and It'd be better for the baby to be killed than to be hated Which again? She's she's basing this on some of her understandings of virtue her understanding of virtue is first fairness If he can get out of it Then I should be able to get out of it or if the man can get out of it and the woman That's a that's an argument from fairness right from their understanding of if it's if it's okay for him to run away Why is it not okay for her to run away, but for her to run away requires a medical procedure, right? but she still should have the right to run away and The further argument is That a child who is going to be born hated would be better not to be born at all That's a that again is I don't agree with any of this.
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I'm giving you the The virtue there of course the argument for virtue is it's better to be it's better to have no life than a bad life That's the argument in simple terms it's better to have no life than a bad life Second one.
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This is a graduate student in biology so this one has a little bit more in regard to the subject of Life understanding life biology is the study of life This is what this person says The single most important factor for women's advancement in society is our ability to control our fertility I'm assuming this is a woman because she's using personal pronouns, but pronouns are a little dangerous now, so I might not on us But she does say The single most important factor for women's advancement in society is our ability to control our fertility without that we are trapped by the Realities of pregnancy childbirth and child rearing rather than a privilege and a gift these aspects of being female become an unbearable burden attempts to limit women's reproductive freedoms Are no more than a gambit To keep women in their place a gambit in the guise of religious moralism True the guys can run deep and many so-called pro-lifers genuinely believe that killing a fetus is equivalent to killing human being but such religious Feeling has no place in the public policies of a country that claims to separate church and state in the words of Supreme Court Justice O'Connor Kennedy and Souter Quote at the heart of Liberty is the right to define one's own concept of existence of meaning of the universe and of the mystery of human life in quote No one wants to plan an abortion But the best way to prevent abortions is to prevent unwanted pregnancies through sex education improved distribution of birth control and general empowerment of women to shape our own individual lives Sound like she running for office It's very thought-out argument It is based on certain virtuous ideas the ideas of virtue first the idea of virtue is the idea of a woman's Potential they're looking at that as the virtue.
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This is robbing a woman of her potential to do certain things and Accusing the system of being rigged Notice she used the word gambit.
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It is a gambit.
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It's a rigged system to benefit the male and to enslave the female that's the argument being made here and she makes the argument of the separation between church and state she says that this is a religious argument and We do not have to who we who do not believe the same do not have to abide by the same set of rules So you see where they're they're arguing from their perspective of virtue They're arguing from their perspective of these are the things that should be put above The life in the womb notice also that she used that keyword that so many of us have heard she used the word fetus Now why does a person in this argument? insist on using the word fetus Man, if I could give an a-plus That was an a-plus answer.
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Mr.
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Michael very good because that is exactly right.
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They are defining the terms Fetus of course is simply comes from the Latin word, which means a child It's no different to call a baby in the womb a baby than it is to call it a fetus but by defining the term fetus the way that they have as an Unliving organism, that's the idea.
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That's that that's trying to be pushed is that the fetus does not have life Therefore it does not have right or rights So the word fetus becomes a key point in the argument one of those important words used to push a Certain idea I'm not going to keep reading these to you all night But I do have one more this is from an undergraduate student in mathematics So I got you a range a wide range We got a chemistry student a biology student now a math student.
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So math students tend to think very logically All right, that's that's what math is a logical system This is their argument I'm pro-choice Because it's the only option that isn't poised with my side of poisoned with misogyny I'm sorry.
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I messed up my words and I shouldn't be laughing It's just like I just said it was gonna be real logical first thing out of the gate It's it's the only position that isn't poisoned with misogyny Now what is misogyny? Misogyny comes from the idea of being opposed to women Gynos where we get the word gynecologist is the root of misogyny.
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That's where that that idea of women so miss Misogyny is anti-women.
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So the argument is that Pro-choice is the only position that isn't anti woman goes on So as I believe that we are responsible for justifying our beliefs and just as one cannot claim that a given race is inferior to another because of Because it's what I believe I don't think one can argue that old white men can assert control over a woman's you over a woman's uterus and Future because they claim to believe that a fetus is comparable to a human life.
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I said this was going to be really logical, right? Notice this one is the one that's most filled with emotion So far it's all been What we would call red herring style arguments pointing at things that don't matter whether it's old white men doesn't matter whether it's an old White man or a young black woman doesn't matter who's saying it.
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It matters whether or not it's true.
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But This is a this is a bad argument She go whoever this I said, I don't know if it's a she or not I'm assuming Says that belief is so clearly a result of the fact that only women can get pregnant and only women can ever Whatever have to carry an unwanted fetus to term that I find it's not true Laughable that anyone claims being anti-choice has anything to do with concern for potential life stop right there and just know that this was certainly Written before five years ago Because she said only a woman can have a baby that would not I wonder if this is still on the MIT website I know that this is at least two years old because I taught this class two years ago and I use these examples then So I know this is at least two years old, but I didn't recheck to see if it's still there But I wonder if this quote is still there She just said something that's no longer allowed in the cultural zeitgeist and that is to say that only women can have babies Because now I'm am I wrong AJ, you know, I'm right, right? Yeah, it is but but I know that it like I said, I got this these examples two years ago I I didn't recheck.
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So if anybody wants to go to as I said MIT dot approach MIT dot edu slash pro-choice slash reasons This was there on their website this person goes on to say can anyone really believe that abortion would even be an issue if men had to face the Possibility of giving birth to and raising a child because of one night failed contraception I think Florence Kennedy said it best quote if men could get pregnant abortion would be a sacrament It's a great quote.
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I Hate what it's saying, but it's it's a that's a legitimately witty retort But this entire argument Is has left the the I has left the reservation of logic and moved into the Position of the emotion and it's a very emotional driven argument It it looks to the entire situation as being based upon one sex or genders desire to oppress and Imprison the other sex or gender men being the antagonist and women being the victim and In this particular case white men.
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I don't know why that matters, but specifically that it would be white men who are making the decision So I didn't choose these because they're bad arguments.
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I choose that I chose these because there's a ray There's an array of arguments as I said the first one She made her arguments based upon what she thought was logical virtues We may disagree, but at least she's making a virtue argument right last one more of an emotional argument Now the same thing happens on our side We have people who make very good arguments for pro-life and we have people who make very bad arguments So it can go either way.
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We have to be at least fair when we talk about that I do have one last thing for the pro-choice side and then I want to move to the pro-life side the BBC which is the British broadcasting company has an ethics guide and the BBC Ethics guide gives a list of Rights Excuse me women's rights arguments in favor of abortion.
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These are one sentence So these are much much quicker than what we just read and I would say much more well thought out these are these are individual sentences that give the basic overview of What they say is an ethical guide to abortion number one Women have a moral right to decide what to do with their bodies How many ever have we heard this? Isn't that the very basis of the argument in general women have a right to decide? What to do with their bodies number two the right to abortion is vital for gender equality now That's similar to an argument.
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We just heard because what did the one woman say she said if a man had to do this You know, it would be legal because men don't have to do it It puts women in a category of subversion Number three the right to abortion is vital for individual women to achieve their full potential I'm gonna stop for a moment.
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I didn't bring the video with me tonight, but there is a video online of a one of the men I believe he is representative of the military speaking at the White House arguing why the military should be paying for abortion and He said the reason the military should be paying for abortion is Because they need to keep women in and when women get pregnant They tend to not remain in and we need their talent.
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We need them to reach their full potential So we need to be paying for their abortions How scary and how dangerous is that? to think that our taxes are going towards the funding of Abortions for women so that we can keep them in the military But that's the point there right to reach full potential.
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You have to have the ability to do this Number four banning abortion puts women at risk by forcing them to use illegal abortionists That is a very popular argument that you've heard the term coat hanger abortion and that is the argument that If abortion is not legal, they will find illegal means to do it and The last one on this list is the right to abortion should be part of a portfolio of pregnancy rights that enables women to make A truly free choice whether to end a pregnancy This argument reminds us that even in the abortion debate We should regard the women as a person and not just a container for the fetus this is continuing on their argument We should therefore give great consideration to her rights and needs as well as those of the unborn Pro-choice women's rights advocates do not take a casual or callous attitude to the fetus The opposite is usually true and most of them acknowledge that choosing an abortion is usually a case of choosing the least bad of several Bad courses of action.
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That's their quote not mine.
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So they're saying We understand this is bad, but it's not the worst bad Remember we talked about that virtue and principle, right? There's they're saying there are certain virtues that rise above the virtue of life for the fetus The virtue of the woman's freedom rises above that the virtue of the woman's potential Rises above that the virtue of the need for the military to have women serving right anything you can put above life becomes a virtue that trumps that What a Good thing is we're still streaming if you're watching this and I just went all Wonky on the camera.
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I think the wire gave out for some reason, but we'll hope that what does not happen again All right So I've given the last ten minutes to The arguments for the pro-choice side I don't have time to To go and wash my hands, but I do feel a little dirty having given the pro-life arguments, but our pro-choice arguments That's I honestly it this is a subject that for me Turned my stomach to even discuss but because it's an important part of this class.
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I have to give that side and Some would say I'm not being fair because obviously I don't support it But I am trying to give the arguments that are being used These are I didn't write these just coming from the websites that are out there and certainly there are other websites.
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There are books But I do want to tell you this Going against the abortion position going against the pro-choice position is a lot like trying to nail jello to a wall And if you've ever tried to nail jello to a wall you'll realize very quickly There's not much where you can find a purchase because every time you get something to stick it falls You got to try to get something else to stick and that often is the case no matter what you say They come up with another reason another place to go.
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Do you want to say? Okay, so now we look to the other side and that is the arguments of the pro-life side pro-life advocates usually base their argument simply on the personhood of The child in the womb the personhood of the child in the womb if the child is a person then the right to personhood should be recognized and One of the rights to personhood is the right to life the problem is That the concept of personhood is not easy to define what makes someone a person and When does a person? begin and Is life the same as personhood? That's the questions that are Challenged to the pro-life advocate, okay, you say you're for life well, what is like when does when does life begin and when does that life become a person and so Often pro-choice arguments will be based on scientifically quantifiable data Scientific advances particularly in the past century have given a large volume of information that is used by pro-life Advocates to conclude when life begins for instance, here's just a few all genetic information including the entire genetic code that generates the particular characteristics of human beings is established at the very moment of conception and From that point the growing being is not a part of the mother but as an individual genetic person so From a scientific perspective.
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We now know that a new genetic code and a new specific person is generated at conception That is true that we know Number two within 18 to 25 days.
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There is a discernible heartbeat some have argued that this is not the case, but rather it is the the That that pro-life advocates have have faked this one that they've created Heartbeats that are Created they're hearing sounds that aren't genuine heartbeats that it's it's it's It didn't stick but that was one of the arguments that was made relatively recently was that they're not real heartbeats It's it's something else that's being picked up by the machine, but not a heartbeat However, it is pretty well accepted within scientific circles that within 25 days There is a heartbeat.
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I I will tell you a personal story My wife and I have six children two by way of adoption and four by way of natural childbirth and we have three children who did not survive the womb and All three of those children we heard their heartbeat Our second one that we lost we had actually named him because he lasted in the womb Into the second trimester We named him Paul and he when he his passing Required a lot more of my wife because it was a lot more difficult in the sense of physical Her body had already begun to prepare and different things and within there were just there was more physical That went along with that miscarriage that hurt but the point is all three of my children whom I never met were I Heard their heartbeat so And all of them were except for Paul was with within the first trimester in the first three months Actually the first the first two or the other two were Within was eight to ten weeks and we heard their heartbeat so Anyhow Within eight weeks brainwaves and fingerprints are present and within 12 to 13 weeks The fetus is sucking his thumb and Recoiling from pain this has been documented on Recorded devices some sonography the pictures within the womb have recorded children being Probed and then recoiling from the pain.
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There is a terrible film That I have seen I Say it's terrible.
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I think it's a it's an important film It's terrible in the sense that I I hated watching it the title of the film was the silent scream the silent scream is Considered to be propaganda By the pro-choice movement and I imagine it's considered that because of what it shows But the silent scream is a film that records an actual abortion and the images of the sonogram are Seen as the child is being pulled apart and during the act the fetus is contorting against the invasion of the clamps and the knives To separate its body Parts and pull them out piece by piece It really is just a tremendously ugly thing to consider as we talk about this.
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It's hard one person Pro-choice person said that the the fetus is simply an undifferentiated mass of protoplasm That is intellectually dishonest that is intellectually dishonest You will see pictures in certain books that try to push the idea of abortion and they'll show pictures of a of a Human Embryo fetus development and they'll say oh, it's the same as a as a as a Lizard or something else they'll show that they'll show other animals there and they'll say it's all the same it is drastically different at a very very early point and It's just simple intellectual dishonest so The point I'm making simply is this they're the arguments of the Pro-choice side tend to the pro-life side rather tend to be arguments about the virtue of life That exists within the womb Virtue of life that exists within the womb One of the most common Arguments for abortion.
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I'm sorry for for pro-life anti-abortion It's called sled Now this may end up on a quiz.
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You may want to write this down sled is S L E D And it is size level of development environment and degree of dependency size level of development environment and degree of dependency now I Don't use this argument a lot.
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I Use a biblical argument which we haven't gotten to yet and we're running so low out of time What I didn't realize they're going to be on this alone, but this is just such an important point for me But I do use I do Teach people this because this is the one of the most commonly used arguments by pro-choice or pro-life Advocates who don't want to use the Bible Now I want to use the Bible I want to use my One source God has given me of truth and point to what the scripture says But some people don't want to use the Bible so they use this and the argument simply goes like this is that We are determining Human value based upon size level of development environment and a big degree of dependency And we don't do that for anyone outside of the womb therefore.
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We shouldn't do that inside of the womb Size for instance human they just because the child is smaller doesn't mean the child is not alive That's a size issue Right we don't we don't we don't We don't determine a person's value based upon their size.
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This is the Horton.
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Here's a who argument The person's a person no matter how small Horton here's a who Huh, dr.
45:18
Seuss yeah person's a person no matter how small I actually have a sermon on the subject of abortion that I preached Probably about five six years ago on our website if you look for it It's called a person's a person no matter how small I'd named it after that so size level of development That is another position that we would say a person's development doesn't make them a person a person can have a a person can during growth can have a developmental issue a Person who is for instance has Down syndrome may have a developmental issue that doesn't make them a person or less than a person so Just because a person is in the womb still developing doesn't make them less of a person see this is how this argument works again Environment where someone is doesn't make them a person and the degree of dependency you wouldn't say a person who's hooked up to a Ventilator who is having to receive their food via a feeding tube is not a person simply because they're completely dependent upon a doctor Right degree of dependency does not determine personhood, right? So this is how this argument works, and it's it's a it's it's not a secular argument But it is in a sense a it's a it's an attempt to to bypass secular arguments against abortion to say You say a person you say this child's not it's not a Person why and it's typically one of these four things they'll say is the reason and you can argue back But what does the Bible say? well You may or may not be surprised to know that there are people on both sides Who argue that their position is biblical? There are pro-choice advocates who argue that their position is Biblical there are entire websites dedicated to the idea that God is pro-choice Have a hard time even letting those words come out of my mouth Probably the most common argument is that life does not begin until breath is Taken that's one of the most common arguments that is supposed to be a biblical argument is that the baby is not alive until it exits the birth-canal and takes its first breath and they base that upon a Misunderstanding of Genesis chapter 2 verse 7 which says Adam was formed But he was not alive until God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and he became a living soul So the argument is that Adam is not living until God breathes into him Therefore the child in the womb is not alive until it takes its first breath another argument By the way, I'm not I'm not even gonna I'm not going to argue against that.
48:03
I'm giving you their argument I you if you want to know how I would answer it.
48:06
I can talk at another time I'm trying to get through these but that's one of their arguments the second one is That the baby in the womb is treated as property and not person the basis on Exodus 21 Exodus 21 verse 22 says when two men strive together and hit a pregnant woman so that her children come out and there is no harm The one who hits her shall surely be fined as the woman's husband shall Impose on him and he shall pay the judges as the judges determined But if there is harm they shall pay life for life eye for eye tooth for tooth hand for hand foot for foot burn for burn wound for wound strike for strike and They say the child in the womb therefore is not treated as a person but rather is treated as property and This passage is actually one which requires interpretation and could be used to argue for either side I actually use this for the other side I use this to argue for life because the child is being treated in the same way as the mother if the child is injured then the child that life becomes Is considered by law to be taking a life So if the child in the womb is injured and what's funny is our government does that now if a woman is? pregnant and She is injured during her pregnancy and the pregnancy is Miscarried as a result of her injury the person who causes the injury can be charged with the death of the child in the womb However a doctor can go into that same womb at the behest of the mother or the father or whomever and Pull the child out ripping it apart and that is considered to be virtuous This is how far we've strayed from any sense of reason on this issue But as I said this this one passage is Debated because of the phrase child that the child child comes out and how that is to be interpreted Some believe that's not a not a word for miscarriage or that it is a word for miscarriage and how you interpret that would determine How you would read that passage, but if you want to look it up and spend some time with it again.
50:16
It's Exodus 21 22 to 25 now there are other arguments that I have heard even more recently Arguments that God produced miscarriages There's a passage and I don't have this one written down.
50:40
So maybe one of you could help me or help me Remember, there's a passage where? There's a mixture of a drink given to a woman to see if she's committed adultery And I don't remember where that is, but they say that produces that's God's way of producing an abortion very very strange Argument, I haven't read into that argument too much to know much about it As I said, it's not in my notes But I know that's one of the more recent ones that I've heard.
51:07
So there are a lot of people who are trying to Trying to gain a foothold somewhere in Scripture to make the pro-choice argument stick So the question becomes well, what is the pro-life argument from a scriptural perspective? well number one is That the pro-life argument would begin with the Absolute biblical prohibition against murder now, this is important that you write murder and not killing There is a difference between murder and killing Even in the Commandments when the Ten Commandments say thou shall not kill There is I believe the better interpretation is thou shall not murder because there are times where killing is justified particularly in the the subject of capital punishment Which you're going to deal with next week Brother Burt the subject of capital punishment is a real thing that the Bible prescribes we'll talk again in class about it more, but the point is there is a difference between murder and Justly taking a life there and and when I talk about war ethics in a few weeks We'll talk more about personal protection things like that If a man is going to hurt my wife and I take his life Then there that is different Than if I go out searching for a man and I and I hurt him or take his life.
52:45
That is a different situation altogether So murder then we would say is the unjust Taking of a life the unjust taking of a life so this gets back to the question is The baby in the womb a life You know, I was going to get here at some point.
53:13
So let's go ahead and go there Psalm 139 verses 13 to 16 Seems to clearly indicate that that which is inside the mother's womb is a life I'll read it to you Psalm 139 verse 13 The psalmist speaking of his own experience says you formed me and my inward parts You knitted me together and my mother's womb I praise you for I am fearfully and wonderfully made wonderful are your works My soul knows it very well my frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret intricately woven in the depths of the earth's obviously a metaphor for the mother's womb Your eyes saw my unformed substance and your book were written every one of them the days that were formed for me When as yet there were none of them now, this verse does not say when life begins however, it does speak poetically of God's intricate care and design and forming the baby in the womb of the mother and Furthermore, it speaks of God's having a relationship with the baby in the womb Before it is born God saw in the unformed substance a life and Treats it like a life Another passage obviously this one specifically addresses one person not all people but could be applied Across the board to people is Jeremiah chapter 1 verse 5 where the prophet says Before or God said to the prophet before I formed you in the womb.
54:51
I knew you before you were born I Consecrated you I appointed you as a prophet to the nations that obviously speaks of God's relationship with Jeremiah prior to his birth Luke chapter 1 Luke chapter 1 Verses 39 to 44 speaks of Mary and Elizabeth's meeting and John the Baptist was in her womb and It says that the child leapt Within the womb of the mother Upon the greeting with the mother of Jesus So in that sense we could argue that at least one child in the womb was cognizant in some way to say that that there was life there and I like this the text actually says leaped for joy If you look up Luke chapter 1 verse 44, it says leapt for joy impersonal Impersonal matter does not experience joy So a couple of thoughts the Bible indicates a child in the womb is worthy of legal protection.
56:19
I made that point earlier in Exodus 21 22 to 25 Indicates that it is a special creation of God Psalm 139 13 to 16 and I believe is capable of feeling Luke 1 39 to 44 Therefore it would follow that the Bible takes a position which favors the protection of children in the womb consistent with the pro-life position so This does not solve all the ethical dilemmas But it it puts us in the position of where we want to have the discussion and that is where do we want to have? the discussion it is a discussion of whether or not the virtue of life is Paramount to the virtue of these other virtues which are being brought up by the pro-choice side The the choice of freedom the choice of potential the choice of these or the these other virtues, right? it's an argument of which virtue trumps the other and Here's the funny thing is none of these would even be a conversation if the child was outside the womb if a woman was holding a child in her arms and she said that I am more concerned with my Career than I am with the raising of this child so she walked to the side of a cliff and dropped the baby off the cliff the entire world would rightly look on in horror at such an action and We see that Unfortunately, we've seen that happen before not necessarily in that picture But we've seen women who have destroyed their children for whatever reason and we look at that with horror But for some reason when it's in the womb, it's okay And there's a great hypocrisy in that but this doesn't do this doesn't deliver us from all of the dilemmas that go along with it and here's a list of the dilemmas that we Given and given the time would have to talk about because these are the most common objections to the pro-life position Number one and we're not going to seek to answer these.
58:25
I'm just giving you these thoughts number one What about the woman who was raped or? involved with incest Number two, what if it is required to save a mother's life? number three What if a woman's health is drastically at risk number four? What if the fetus is deformed? I? Don't even like the word fetus.
58:50
I'm reading.
58:51
I would normally say baby.
58:52
I've tried to do that, but I'm reading these off of a list number five What if the fetus the child I'll say it right What if the child has a medical condition that will certainly cause it to die at birth? Number six what about population increase that one? I think is the most ridiculous, but it is one on the list number seven Won't vulnerable women die in droves and back alley abortions, and this is the last one and this is the one This is the one where I'm going to I'm going to have my word about abolitionism, and we're We're running out of time for this part of the talk, but I want to say this I'm going to read this and then I'll give you a thought if the law Recognizes a child in the womb as a person and gives them rights of personhood Then women who have abortion will be charged with murder and that compounds the injustice against them that's the argument that is almost always made is that if you make the child in the womb a person who has the right to life if the mother seeks out a Abortion then she can be held accountable Now I'm going to give you my opinion And you can take my opinion and you can wad it up and throw it in the trash on your way out if you don't like it, it's fine I believe That a woman is culpable If she seeks out an abortion Because she is in the action of doing something that she should not be doing and if she pays a doctor to Kill her husband.
01:00:37
She would be in trouble if she pays a doctor to kill her child She should also be in trouble now.
01:00:42
That is a very unpopular opinion, but that does put me in this camp Because what typically separates the abolitionists from the pro-life camp is what I just said Most pro-life advocates do not believe in any punishment for the mother.
01:00:57
They will say the mother is a victim as much as the child Having stood outside of abortion clinics and having seen women say heard the words out of their own mouth heard them say I know it's a baby, but I don't want it and I'm going to go kill it I don't give it what you think having heard them say that I know that there are at least some women who go to abortion clinics fully aware of what they're doing and Fully culpable for what they're doing.
01:01:24
So I I I take a position that might be considered by some to be somewhat Heavily drastic on that but I but again that puts me in this camp right here because abolitionists say one all Abortion should be abolished to all people who seek to procure an abortion should be punished including the mother And you may not agree you may think that is too drastic a position and that may put you here in the pro-life category I still love you.
01:01:56
We can disagree.
01:01:57
That's fine You know, I understand there may be some room for disagreement I had a professor in seminary who said that every woman who gets an abortion is a victim And I sat in class with my mouth shut because one of my class to teach But I disagreed when he said that but he made the argument that every woman who gets an abortion is a victim so where you stand on that will be one of the things that Puts that out now the other thing just real quick because I did say I was gonna talk about abolition The other thing that tends to separate these groups these the abolitionist movement is trying to actually get laws passed that abolish abortion pro-life advocates typically try to pass law that manages abortion and that's why the Abolitionists tend to tend to not want to do as much with the pro-life advocates because they'll say these are they are Being complacent or they're not complacent.
01:02:52
They're they're being They're giving too much ground they're saying, you know, it shouldn't be 15 weeks.
01:02:58
It shouldn't be eight weeks.
01:02:59
It should be no abortions at all, so again, this is this is a This a heavy topic and it raises other ethical questions, is it true that a person has the right to do whatever they want with their body That's one of the things that's so ridiculous.
01:03:20
So when I hear the argument that a woman should have a right to Abortion because a woman has the right of her own body.
01:03:25
We don't give anyone the right to commit suicide If anyone tries to commit suicide, they'll be put under arrest put into put into a psychiatric facility and given Therapy and all kinds of we don't give people the right to do what they want with their own body We don't give people the right to do drugs to to to to drink and drive We don't give people the right to to stand on top of a building and throw themselves off We don't give people all rights to their own body.
01:03:47
So that argument by itself fails of the logical test It's not logical Government does not allow people to do whatever they want If it did it wouldn't exist it wouldn't have a purpose and the Bible doesn't give that right either We do not have a right to anything we want We have a responsibility All right, guys I know that was a lot and you probably have a thousand things you want to say to me and I would love to hear It but I also want to give you a break because I need to take a breath and get a drink of water So let's take five.
01:04:30
So now we're going to move on to the subject of reproduction And this is obviously closely related to the debate regarding abortion Especially in the last several decades opportunities for all kinds of new methods of Both assisting and halting reproduction have been created and each of them come with their own ethical questions The long-held position of the Roman Catholic Church has been that all birth control methods are sinful I'll read a quote from Catholic comm it says in 1968 Pope Paul the sixth issued his landmark Encyclical letter humane vitae, which is Latin for human life Which re-emphasized the church's constant teaching that it is always intrinsically wrong to use Contraception to prevent new human beings from coming into existence this includes sterilization condoms and other barrier methods spermicides coitus and eruptus which is withdrawal and the pill and All other such methods in quote so the Roman Catholic position is not only is the pill or physical contraception, but even the act of coitus interruptus, which is The withdrawal method anything that would stop a human life from being able to be produced Would be considered sinful And what few realize is that up until? 1930 Virtually all Protestant churches held that same position Today the majority of Protestant churches do not forbid birth control though opinions vary among leaders and denominations most see the biggest difference between abortion and contraception Contraception as the moment life begins if life does not begin until contraception than the removal of the ability Keeps the life from ever forming and therefore no life is lost however, there are more and more Protestants who are now questioning the biblical allowance for contraception and I want to encourage an additional reading to your book so if you want to write this in your notes, and I will also put the link in the Website notes you all been getting your emails you get your email every week that I send out that has the class overview Dr.
01:07:17
Albert Moller wrote a good article entitled can Christians use birth control and I think it's a reasoned and balanced article.
01:07:29
So if you want to add that to your reading for this class, I would certainly encourage it but along with contraception which in itself creates the ethical conversation of whether or not it's ever right to interrupt the progress of sperm meeting egg There is also the question regarding reproductive technologies Which were unheard of until recently.
01:07:55
I Mean if we think about it some form of birth control has been around since Well, I can't think of his name now, but there's Yeah, he did.
01:08:06
But what was his name? Oh man, oh Nan was the son of Son of Judah Who was told to give a child to? Tamar for his brother.
01:08:24
He did not want to give a child to Tamar for his brother.
01:08:29
So he Used the withdrawal method which I remember preaching on this in Genesis when I was preaching and I said coitus interruptus from the pulpit probably the most awkward term and I've ever used from the pulpit and It that's that's where that term but that is a form of birth control That is a that is one way and one of the only methods that's been available in most of human history There have been other methods, but it's really only been in the last hundred years where medical pills and things like that and contraception such as Condoms and whatnot But along with contraception there's also the questions regarding reproductive technologies which were unheard of until recently such as Is it right for a person to receive a donation of sperm? That is a ethical dilemma that is been has been raised now What would a person need a donation of sperm for? Well, it would be for a person who's who who does not have the ability to let's say a Man is sterile unable to produce That for his wife so they get a donation from someone else or a woman who is by herself and wants to have a child and there's all kinds of ethical issues that arise out of that and of course the virtue is and the virtue and principle issue becomes a virtue and principle issue of Life, of course life is good.
01:09:58
But is life good by any means and that's the question that would be there a more Maybe One that one that might be even more debated is the use of things like in vitro fertilization where eggs are removed from the woman and fertilized artificially and replaced into the woman's body for the possibility of creating a child this is done for the purpose of a woman who is otherwise unable to have a child Now I want to say something about this I've never engaged in any of that But I did my wife and I did have 12 years Where we were in fertile We were married in 1999 and we did not have our first natural child until 2012 so we were 13 well 12 years in a state of infertility.
01:11:05
We found out that it had it was a result of a Of a issue of physical issue on her part that we were able to overcome and Through it was actually through a dietary change changed some of her body's chemistry She lost 80 pounds in a year Which was very amazing and as a result was able to get pregnant all kinds of other things I've told this story before it's an amazing thing that God did in our life, but while we were Waiting for that miracle.
01:11:39
We adopted two other children.
01:11:40
So we had already had two adopted children, but I understand maybe Not more than others, but I understand at least the functional pain of infertility Having gone 12 years Seeing a wife who watches all the other mothers around her Pregnant and who is unable herself to be pregnant and to watch her tears and to watch her pain and Biblically speaking.
01:12:10
I think all of us are aware that there are many cases in Scripture where women who are unable to have children whether it is the situation with Leah and Rachel or a situation with the mother of Samuel who Beg the Lord for that ability because they have the inability to have a child So this is obviously something that is painful and when we begin to talk about the ethics of it Emotions don't change our ethic, but they do lead to an understanding of why why these things even exist Why does in vitro fertilization exist because of this desperate desire that doesn't make it right and I'm not justifying it Simply saying these things come into the conversation these things do come into conversation going back to the issue of abortion a child 11 years old raped and is now pregnant You can't tell me that even though we are anti-abortion and we don't want an abortion to happen that we don't hurt for that child In that moment when they're having to carry the baby of a rapist Right.
01:13:13
It's a terrible thing to even to consider and I think he should be Killed well, no, I think I think just straight-up kill I I don't know no castration unless that's the first step towards killing it Sorry, I'm just I I I I I'm all for electric bleachers.
01:13:37
I think we should get rid of the electric chair and just get Take like 30 at a time, but sometimes it just needs some killing.
01:13:45
I had a friend one time He said he said I think that there are times where it should be justifiable in court to say your honor.
01:13:52
He needed killing It's a terrible thing to say in an ethics class, but The reality is what I'm saying is there are emotions that play into these questions particularly the question of a person who is infertile it is a difficult thing and so I Have a quote here From this is actually interesting.
01:14:16
How many of you have the ESV study Bible? The ESV study Bible would would you could kill a horse with it.
01:14:23
The thing is is I mean It's a library in and of itself.
01:14:26
It's ginormous Bible.
01:14:28
I Own one, but I can't carry it.
01:14:30
I don't go to the gym enough But the ESV study Bible has in its notes in the back an entire section on systematic theology Which is very good.
01:14:40
It's short, but good and it has an entire section on Christian ethics an entire Subchapter on Christian ethics where it looks at passages of Scripture and applies them to these subjects and I thought it's it's Section on this is good.
01:14:58
So I wanted to read a portion of it to you if I might assisted reproductive technologies also known as a RT's Post significant moral questions for Bible believers Louise Brown the world's first test-tube baby was born in 1978 Since then in vitro fertilization, which is the fertilization of egg cells by sperm outside.
01:15:20
The woman's womb has been quite controversial tip typically IVF Involves the fertilization of about a dozen ova in a medical laboratory only two or three ova are transferred into a woman's uterus Leaving the others to be crypto preserved or frozen for later use Given that the embryo is a human person with a right to life many Christians have repudiated the practice Due to the fact that 25% of these human embryos often die in the thawing process and many are likely to be discarded or used For research purposes.
01:15:52
However, it is possible that newer technology will allow the fertilization of only one or two Ova that will actually be implanted in the woman's room in the woman's womb, but you see where the ethical dilemma arises It's it's not just the idea of helping a woman Overcome infertility, but the ethical dilemma comes up.
01:16:11
What about all of these now fertilized? Embryos if we believe that life begins at fertilization Now we run into a new dilemma So I think I think if you have the if you have the study Bible, please read this is entire article on this I think is very good But this is where again this class isn't always about giving all the answers, but it's about raising it.
01:16:34
These are the issues These are the things we have to consider.
01:16:37
These are the things we have to Again looking at the concept of virtue and principles.
01:16:41
Where do we land on? These things and there are several ethical dilemmas which could lead to many conversations And as I said as a couple who have had difficulty in conception ourself I have sympathy, but that doesn't mean that that is going to drive my ethic, but it does drive my empathy When I deal with this subject last for tonight is the subject of genetics and this just carries on the same idea With the rise of the ability to manipulate human genetics newer and sometimes frightening ethical dilemmas Come are seemingly coming on the horizon and some of them are already here This is a quote from bioethics calm Completion of the human genome project in 2003 provided a rough draft of the human genetic code with more details added almost daily Current research is aimed at two major goals one Predicting and diagnosing disease and two medical treatments There are deep ethical implications to all of this the manipulation of our own nature may seem to break certain traditional limits There is a sense of uneasiness about the process and concerns about altering human nature itself The purpose of this article is simply to provide conceptual clarity about these complex and often technical issues without Delving into the ethical arguments themselves.
01:18:10
So this is the article I was quoting and they look at two issues First is the issue of what is sometimes referred to as designer children.
01:18:20
Have you ever heard of the phrase designer children? Designer children is where genetics can be manipulated within the womb to allow for children to have certain certain genetically moderate modified traits to enhance their Situation perhaps an example would be that a child might be given a certain eye color or a certain hair color to Satisfy the parents desires the term the term which was coined in 2004 is designer, baby, and it is now an official entry in the Oxford Dictionary You can look up designer baby as of 2004 Designer babies represent an area within embryology that has not yet become a practical reality But nonetheless draws out ethical concerns about whether or not it will become necessary to Implement limitations regarding designer babies in the future I'll give you something if you want to look this up you can you don't have to but I I'll try to remember to put this in the class notes about Two months no, maybe three months ago.
01:19:37
I did an interview with a man about the subject of transhumanism Anybody familiar with transhumanism? AJ you are a little bit Okay, it's not transgenderism Trent because that's what when he emailed me this guy emailed me.
01:19:55
Hey, can I would you interview me on your show? I said, what do you want to talk about? He said transhumanism.
01:20:00
I said Is that men who want to be women women who want to be men that no Transhumanism is the idea of introducing newer technologies into the human experience that would change the way the human body works Well, we already do this in some ways things like pacemakers and things like that But this is a much more radically much more radical change Technologies that could keep people alive much longer keep people healthy much longer and fix certain genetic problems from the inside out These are things that could change the human experience Where we almost are no longer even human But we are a form it what those who argue for this are arguing that this is the next step in human evolution Obviously, I don't believe in evolution but the idea that this is what is being seen is the next step in human evolution is the tampering with genetics and through through the use of medical medically implanted technology that the human body could function better longer and be even to the point where death is No longer not that we would live forever, but we would live Much longer to where we don't even have to consider the idea of death for a very very long time These are the ideas and sounds like science fiction until you realize that when you look in places that are actually talking about real science, these are the conversations that are being had and They raise all kinds of ethical issues about playing God So it's not just about designer babies It's about somebody like me if somebody said well We can give we can implant this thing in your body That would change your metabolism and you no longer have a an issue with battling with weight loss I mean, I use myself as example, right? Okay You know what? I not be like at least consider it if this is going to help me live a little longer and take care of my body a little easier I'm be honest, right? These are the things that are One of the things the guy said on the podcast is he said He said we already have some of these things in our life We don't even realize that people wear devices now that are constantly telling them their heart rate their temperature their You know women it'll tell you whether or not you're ovulating ready for you know All these things come through an iWatch or a device wearable technologies that are already changing the way that we live right, and so These all come with their own their own ethical questions All right, what happens next? Ten years from now when the government says, okay now for you to be able to Live we have to put this device inside of your body.
01:22:39
That's going to carry all of your social security information and all of your Financial information and all of your Yeah, your Netflix password all of your identification I know that this is ridiculous But at least one person in the room is going to get this reference because Mike and I love movies if you've ever seen demolition, man And the movie demolition man, which is made in the 90s.
01:23:04
It was whoever Did this film was so forward-thinking because they they they had so many ideas that are now realities But one of the things they had was a chip in the hand, which was used for purchasing Identification and all those things and I know everybody who hears that thinks Roman or revelation 13 mark of the beast right? Well people who saw that movie.
01:23:22
That's what they thought too.
01:23:23
This is a but There are now scanners People can use their hand print.
01:23:29
I go to the I go to ER last time.
01:23:31
I went to the ER Put your hand here and it scanned my hand print.
01:23:36
That was the way they identified me So it's a these are realities that that exist and it may change Or it come with ethical questions And and this is the last one for tonight prenatal genetic testing prenatal genetic testing my wife and I as I said We have had four children who have come to term and been born every single one of them they have tried to push us to do prenatal genetic testing and the argument made is Well, if you get this prenatal genetic testing done, you will know whether or not the child has Downs or whether or not the child has another disease Something maybe even worse like spina bifida or something something that could take their life You would know and be able to prepare for that.
01:24:31
Okay? that's a Reality that exists now.
01:24:35
That's not something that's coming as you can you can test and there are there I want to read this to you in Iceland this is a quote from the Washington Post in Iceland Upward of 85 percent of pregnant women Opt for prenatal testing which has produced a down syndrome elimination rate, which is approaching 100% in 2009 there were only three down syndrome babies born in Iceland The rest were taken through abortion So that's where the gym that's where this becomes an ethical issue It's one thing to say.
01:25:19
Okay.
01:25:19
I want the genetic testing for reasons you know want to be prepared or whatever, but it's another if it's being used as a as a Culling device to call children that are unwanted and that's what's happening According to the 2016 article in the New York Times in the United States an estimated 67 percent of fetuses With prenatally diagnosed down syndrome are aborted.
01:25:46
So in and in Iceland, it's almost 100% but here it's 67% When they're diagnosed with down syndrome, they're aborted we are systematically choosing to destroy an entire subset of human beings because we believe they are inferior to life and I cannot tell you how Aggressively opposed to that I am on an ethical level But that is what we deal with As I said tonight that maybe didn't answer any questions for you But it certainly rose maybe rose some new questions that you hadn't thought about and that's part of what? Studying ethics is is looking at all the different issues and asking the questions and trying to find out what scripture teaches on these subjects And sometimes it's not easy But I hope this was helpful.
01:26:36
I wish we had more time for a conversation, but we are over time This week you will be getting an email.
01:26:43
I'll include the things that I mentioned which are the the podcast I mentioned and And the the article by dr.
01:26:54
Moller about About birth control any questions Good joke All right.
01:27:12
Let's pray father.
01:27:12
We thank you for this opportunity to discuss a very difficult subject.