D&D and Fantasy: A Gateway to the Supernatural? | S6 E6

And we're back at it with the Point Taken Podcast and today, I'm here, which doesn't matter because I know very little about the subject material,

Anna's here because she is the single most important person in the podcast, second place goes to Lowell. And Hunter and Jeff are here because y 'all asked to have good guests on and they know what they're talking about.

So, let's clap it up for Hunter and Jeff here. Let's clap it up. Oh, I'm very excited. We've already had a lot of fun quoting

Parks and Rec and all that stuff. Hey, look, at this moment, if Point Taken Podcast has benefited you in any way, would you please like, share, subscribe, do that stuff.

Go find your favorite video from this season or from season five, four, whatever, and repost on your social media sites, try to spread the word.

We are simply trying to get out the message and tackle subjects that maybe aren't talked about too much on other podcasts.

That's the whole point. And debate through them, work through them, talk through them to figure out how

Christians should respond and how we should live and carry ourselves in the world today. So, that is our goal and today, we've got a fun one.

Anna, what are we doing today? So, this was actually a listener question because this listener has a friend who participates in D &D, or Dungeons and Dragons, and so he wanted to know if Christians should participate in that or like other types of video games like,

I don't know, Halo, like the ones where you shoot people. What are some of the other ones? Yeah, something like Call of Duty. Call of Duty, yeah, like any of those or like other types of fantasy play.

So, should Christians do any of that stuff? So, Pastor Josiah and I are not nerds, so we've got nerds on here.

But I speak nerd. I would argue that, yeah. I speak nerd. I do not speak nerd. Yeah, I speak nerd. I speak nerd. You're a married one.

Yeah, but it doesn't mean I speak it. How do you communicate? I don't understand. I don't understand what he says. I don't know what that is.

Can you explain that to me? But, so what's funny is, I think all but one, two, two people. The listener question is

Anna speaking about her husband. No, no, hold on. I wanted him on, but he said no. But, no,

I think it's funny because all but two people in this room have played with my husband,

D &D with my husband, and he was like the... And there's seven people in the room and the two people who haven't played with them are? Oh, no, three then. Yeah, it's three because Dalton hasn't played either.

That was really sad. Why did you? I forgot. I was looking at you guys. Yeah, I was looking at you guys.

No, was that because you don't play that or you were not invited? He thinks he's too cool. Yeah. Like me.

He's like, oh, sorry. To be fair, I was like that. I'd rather throw a ball. Oh!

Legitimately, I was like that. In high school, early college, I would have said no. I wouldn't have been interested. So, to be fair.

Because you thought it was lame. Yeah, I didn't understand the, I guess, appeal. Yeah, I guess the appeal and the fun in it.

Yeah, the media makes it all just like. Yeah. In the basement. Yeah.

So, let me ask you a question. Before we get started, I've asked this question, I think on two podcasts, but they were non -nerds.

So. Yeah, go ahead. The resident nerds. Stranger Things, Season 1, Basement. Are they playing

Dungeons and Dragons? Yes. Yeah. Got it! Now! They're playing extremely nerd.

Yeah, they play it every season. I tried to skip Season 3 out of my mind since it's such a waste of a season. It's fine.

But I don't remember any Season 2. Okay. And every season they're playing D &D. Really? Yeah. So, all the bad guys.

All the bad guys, they're all names of D &D villains. So, that's why they have all these jokes. Of actual?

Yeah. Like Demogorgon. Yeah. Like, it's a villain. Demogorgon. But I was told that whoever the dungeon master is.

DM. Yeah, the DM. Very good. Thank you. Can make up whatever rules he wants, whenever he wants, whatever time he wants.

Is that true? In a way. That's kind of like the start of my answer to the D &D part of the question. So, what is

D &D, though? For us that don't know what it is. So, the basic idea, the way

D &D was created, it was created by a guy in like the late 90s. Basically, what happened is the number...

Wait, 90s? I didn't think it. Yeah, early 2000s. I thought it was in the 70s. It's set in the 70s. So, that's false advertisement, anachronism.

No, you're right. Yeah, you're right. He is older than that. He is older than that. So, basically what happened is he read

Lord of the Rings. That was a great sense of inspiration from him. Tolkien. Yeah, Tolkien.

Absolutely amazing. But then he, in a way, quantified and qualified the races in Lord of the

Rings. So, he gave personalities and attributes to dwarves, to elves, to goblins, to things like that.

So, basically, he just set up a structure of how to create a character and how to communicate action.

So, that would be dice rolling. So, if I want to do something, I roll a 20 -sided die that says how successful I was to do it.

But in a sense, the Dungeon Master sets a scene and me as a player responds to the scene.

So, we introduce all of the content. Everything... At that point, it's improvisation. Yeah, it's 100 % improvisation.

It's guided improvisation because the Dungeon Master will have settings and sets and certain things that he might want to try and guide it to.

So, if you fail here, then maybe I'll guide you. The way to win is to do whatever the Dungeon Master set up for that day?

That is a way to look at it. That's a way to look at it. It's more of, okay, a scene.

Just take literally the Lord of the Rings. So, let's say you have to defend...

I do speak Lord of the Rings. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why I'm using it. So, you got this.

So, fighting that whole battle. Just imagine a scene and a challenge from the villains.

The villains would be the DM. He opposes some obstacle or it could be, hey, you walk into a store, you're about to go on a voyage.

Maybe you should buy some supplies. So, it literally could be whatever the DM wants. So, it's not winning.

It's more of moving the story along. The allure of the game is that if you play a video game or if you watch a movie, it has a set thing.

If you're in a video game, you have certain objectives. You have a map or some type of place where you can't go here because you have to go finish the objective.

But with Dungeons and Dragons, you're just put in a situation and you said, here's what's going on and then you just have to literally pretend that you're in that world and find out somehow that you somehow make a difference and can stop it or whatever it is.

So, in our game, Donovan put us in prison. So, we all just met in a prison and had to escape it.

Then we found out where we were, who was in charge, and all that stuff and we're just trying to fight the bad guys.

And if I may, the listener asked, should Christians play this?

Why would that question even be asked from what you two are just describing? Okay, so, kind of like as I was starting, that's a fair question.

It really is a fair question because as I was kind of alluding to, but I guess a more direct way to say this would be, because the

DM and the players introduce all content and dialogue actions, if something unsavory happens, it would be because we introduced it.

So, some folks do some dark stuff. Right, right. So, it depends on who you're playing with and your morals.

You set, the players and the DM set the rating. You set everything. So, rating like PG, PG -13.

It's like you go into a bar, I rolled to seduce the bartender. You can do that.

But, I found out that the DM has to act out. Yes. Okay. So, that's the funny, but that's the important part you have to remember.

It's like, okay, so if anything unrighteous about it, well, that depends on who you're playing with. Well, who's the DM for the guy that y 'all play with?

So, it's Donovan, and what was really, really funny is when - I would love to have seen him act out that. Is this in person or is it on the computer?

Unfortunately, it's online. You can do whatever you want. How we played it was online. Did Donovan act this stuff out? No, no.

Hold on. No. He, when we very, very first started, he said, okay, rule number one, and I'm not going to say this a second time, he said, you may not roll to seduce anyone.

He said, I am not going to role play being seduced by you. I said, oh, fine.

His rule number two was like, you're not allowed to harm or like, I guess I shouldn't say the word troll.

You're not allowed to harm or negatively affect another team member. Yeah, because what could be really funny is if we're in a really big boss battle, and I'm fighting with him, and he's like in a really bad position, and I could really save him, and I'd say,

I rolled to slice Jeff's Achilles tendon, which is allowed everywhere else.

I imagine there's a lot of potential for like demonic, false god, magic, dark, can be, yeah.

Not with Donovan. I mean in general. It depends. So that's the whole thing about should Christians play with it.

Well, it depends who you're playing with. Would y 'all play if it was that kind of stuff? It would lose appeal. Because the fun part for me is who you're playing with.

Exactly. I tell that when people ask me is D &D fun, I say it is 100 % who you're playing with.

It is. That is the whole picture. If you're playing with friends who all have a similar idea of how they want the game played in terms of limits, it can be so funny because y 'all can do really goofy stuff, and nothing is harmful or unrighteous.

It's all good humor, right? You can do whatever you want, but if you have people who go farther than you're willing to go, then it gets awkward.

You're like, I'm not really comfortable about this, and it ruins all the fun. That was one reason why Donovan left one of those groups that he was playing with.

Jeff told me this. Donovan and I just don't talk about that stuff. He said that there was one person in the group.

He was not a DM for this. He was just a part of the campaign. Is that what you guys call it? Sure. Learning terms.

He said they were part of this campaign, and one of the girls within the campaign said she was going to roll to rape somebody.

He's just like, okay, that's not... It took the fun out of it. Right. I didn't know that was a thing.

That would be really crazy. That would never happen. I'm leaving. I'm leaving. After that, I'm like, dude, y 'all are weird.

Y 'all are weird. I don't have a spell for that. I'm sorry. I don't have a spell for that. I'm going to log out.

One of the things that I enjoyed, like I was telling you guys before we started, is the room that he had his computer in at the time was backed up to our bathroom in our bedroom, so I could hear.

Just hearing you guys laugh, and then there would be some times when I'd go in there like, hey, I have a quick question, and I can hear on his headphones all of the laughing just coming from that.

I'm like, aw, you and your little nerd friends having fun. I'm going to go in here and watch TV like an adult and have fun with that.

He has his own thing, but I don't know. I just never knew it could be like that.

Is this the same as Magic the Gathering? No. Could not be farther apart. Not even close. Could not be farther apart.

I will say. Simple question. Simple question. Could not be farther apart. It mimics. What do you mean, it can't be farther apart?

Magic the Gathering is a card game that you play with each other like you would. I mean, it's not like poker, but just think in that realm.

Like Pokemon? Yes. Yes. Much more like Pokemon. That's such a better answer than Pastor Josiah.

You're welcome. Good job. No, okay, so is that the one where they have like the five cards, and they're like really, really expensive?

Donovan was just telling me about that. Sanderson. Do you remember Sanderson? He played the, Brandon Sanderson, he wore the thing around his neck, and the card was valued at like $30 ,000.

Cool. You know which one I'm talking about? That's a joke. No, I'm not. He showed me. This is real, bro. He showed me like last night this card.

Who bought it? Oh my gosh. Who bought it? Literally like three years ago, someone bought the most expensive

Magic card. It's worth $3 million. So sometimes people. Pokemon cards are worth that. Post Malone.

Post Malone bought a $3 million Magic card. I would rightly make fun of how much sports cards are worth.

Right. Same idea. But they are based off real people, and they're real attributes. Yeah, but you can't really play or do anything with them.

They're just in a case to make your. So the difference between what Hunter's saying and what you're saying is

Magic, this card, the creature has an ability.

So it could be something of high value if you played it in a game. It could win you the game. So it's actually.

So is the counterfeit market for this card game? Probably off the roof. I don't know. Honestly, I'm not that into Magic that I know the counterfeit game.

I've only played it once with Nick from your story earlier. He taught me when we were very young, and I was like, that was cool.

Let's play it again. And we never did. Yeah. So I have no idea. We weren't good enough. No, no. It was probably mostly my fault.

But I was like, yeah. But what I was saying about Dungeon Dragons, and I think it's to Jeff's point, is it kind of mirrors, in a certain way, real life, in that the choices that you make and the person that you decide to be really depends on, you know, where the sin comes from.

Right. So if you decide that you're going to be sinful in real life, then you're going to be sinful in real life. And if you're going to be sinful in the game, you're going to be sinful in the game.

You have the opportunity to choose regardless. There's nothing intrinsic. Like Donovan, have you ever played and you were like, hey, man,

I'm not playing with you guys no more? Yeah. Have you all played with other players? No. I've only ever played with Donovan. That's the only experience that I've personally had with him.

So I've only ever had the positive experience. So you've never played, like, I know, isn't there like an actual board game version of this?

Or like, is it? I know the new age is, I was like, I know the new age part is like the computer, like you guys had done, but I didn't know if people still played.

I was never interested until Donovan asked me to be interested. So here's kind of what happens. So you can buy, like,

I could buy a map for like X amount of money. And in that map, there's a book for the

DM and it kind of walks to a story. So what a lot of DMs will do is they'll buy a book that has a story and then they'll cross out and change things that they want to change.

And then they read it. Like you have a map, you have a little character. Like you're the narrator. Yes. So literally you have your character and they're like, all right, y 'all are in the

Shire. Okay. And then you start reading the beginning of Lord of the Rings. You're like, okay, now a wizard,

Gandalf, you know him. He comes into your house and ask you to go and do a dangerous quest.

What do you do? That's what Dungeons and Dragons. If you've never seen Lord of the Rings, that's, what do you do? Gandalf came into your house.

He asked you to help him on a dangerous adventure. What do you do? Oh, you're asking me? Yeah. Is Boromir going with me?

That's the question. You look at Boromir. Hold on, we're playing Dungeons and Dragons, that's a sin, stop it. You look at Boromir.

He nods and says, I'm with you, Frodo. Oh, you mean, okay. So you're

Boromir. Yeah. That's literally Dungeons and Dragons. Is somebody - What just happened?

Yeah. Somebody's prompting you to follow along the story or say no. So obviously the questioner who asks us -

Is the DM. No, no, no. The questioner, Tanana, has obviously seen a less tactful version of this.

Otherwise they wouldn't have asked the question. And I'll say this, when I was talking about it with Donovan for the first time or something here at church, there was somebody that came up and was just like, are you actually talking about that?

That's - Don't play - That's sinful. That's satanic. And it's evil. And so I was just like, oh, shoot.

Because if you grew up in the 70s, 80s, and all that stuff, because it was the first mainstream bring into your house where you're fighting demons.

So now we see it as the point of, wait, you're fighting demons, you're not worshiping them. But they see it as, oh, there's a demon in that game, therefore it's evil kind of thing.

So there's a whole conception of it being, or perception, sorry, of it being demonic or satanic because there are creatures of fantasy in them.

So in my mind, it literally is, if D &D is a sin, then literally by definition,

Lord of the Rings, watching Lord of the Rings would have to be a sin. Improv comedy would have to be a sin. Yeah, that's fair.

Anything improvisational would have to be. Because intrinsically, you'd have to say that Dungeons &

Dragons is intrinsically sinful. Yeah, because human beings are a part of it. So that's literally basically the idea.

But you can make it what you want. I kind of view it as what I was talking to Anna about is it's almost equated to the person who created

D &D is like creating a language, like the English language. Now Anna and I get to have a conversation. And if we talk and gossip, that would be sin, but it has nothing to do with the person who created the

English language, right? They just gave us a structure and tools to communicate and follow, and then we chose to either do it correctly or incorrectly morally, right?

So that's kind of more of the way I view D &D in the sense of is it sin? It depends 100 % on the players and DM.

Okay. Makes sense to me. Okay, I agree. So you have any other questions about the nerd stuff? About that one?

No. Yeah, D &D? No, I got that one. That one makes sense, yeah. Okay, so. See, what he's saying is you make it as pure and fun as you want or as dark as you want, and that's up to you guys, and a

Christian should not play the dark way, obviously. Yeah, whether they're the DM or a part of the campaign. Cannot choose the dark side.

Yeah, whether they're the DM or a part of the campaign. But otherwise, just a bunch of friends having fun. Yeah. Sounds like a plan to me.

Yeah, because honestly, also, we didn't even mention it, but Donovan, our DM, also had a rule that you had to want to do, in a certain way, the right thing, right?

You could do an honorable thing in a roundabout way, but you couldn't be like, okay,

I'm actually going to turn evil and betray my party. You weren't even allowed to do that. You had to want to complete and defeat evil.

That was like a base set line. Right, like. Your character had to want to beat the evil person. I had a character flaw where I was a pirate, so, you know, if we went.

He was a thief. Yeah, if we went somewhere, I'm just like, all right, maybe I'll steal a couple of coins, you know what

I'm saying? You get to pick a character? Yeah, and you make the character. Could Ron Swanson be in Dungeons and Dragons?

100%. Yeah, it depends on who your DM is. Yeah. Do you know. I was a hiring bunny.

I was a bunny who was a pirate. So, Donovan played one where he was. The bunny from Monty Python. No, just.

That's a cute little bunny. So, Josiah. Oh, no one ever listens to me. Oh, it's just a cute little bunny.

Donovan played a whole campaign. My voice did not work that well. No, it was really bad. I'm trying to be the guy from the bridge.

What was his name? Tim. Some. No, Tim's the shrubber. No, no, no, no.

Tim is the magician who shot the fire bolts. Yeah, right. So he called me Tim.

Tim. I can't do it. Who's the shrubber? Roger. Roger. The shrubber. I thought it was

Tim. No, it's Roger. I'll accept correction. Yeah, it's all right. I was wrong about Lord of the

Rings, but I'm right about Monty Python. Every time. But yeah, so Donovan played Randy Savage.

He played a whole campaign as a WWE wrestler. So like when the big bad guy, he tried like getting the bad guy in a full

Nelson. Let me tell you something. Donovan one time, he said a quote, the cream always rises to the top.

And I did not know who said that quote. And he's

Randy Savage. Really? And he goes, Josiah, you're telling me you've never seen this video right here.

You know, I guess this is the guy from Spider -Man one, right? Randy, Randy Savage.

No, I got you for three minutes. And you ain't going nowhere. Is that him? I have no idea.

I can't remember. But he goes. And it was it was Randy Savage, who's like the cream.

Yeah. Always rises to the top. He's shown you to wait. That's where that comes from.

Is that that's him? Yeah. Is that the Spider -Man one? No, this is just no, no. But I saw his name in Spider -Man.

Yes. Spider -Man one. He had long black hair. Yeah, I can't say is ready.

Yeah. Macho man. Randy Savage was macho man. Randy Savage. He's got me. Donovan cannot believe that.

I've never seen the video. That's a very famous like video. He's a goofball.

Randy Savage is a goofball. And Donovan grew up watching WWE. Yeah, I've never watched it. Yeah, I've never watched it.

He calls it hillbilly soap opera. Yeah, that's exactly so accurate. That's all. OK, so I think we've talked about D &D to death.

What's the other one? I believe the question was fantasy. Yeah, we should have a fantasy games or like fantasy.

So did we want to? I guess fantasy in general is a tough thing to quantify because is

Parks and Rec fantasy. Yeah, I mean, it's fiction. So what fantasy has a sense of magic or like non -realistic ness.

Yeah, so I guess that's the idea. So you almost always involve some type of ability or power beyond human ability.

Right. So there's usually has to do with some type of magic. For example, Arthur and the

Round Table would be considered fantasy. Merlin. Yeah. You see what I'm saying? Like most of the time, if it's a fantasy or a high fantasy, there's going to be some type of.

Why don't you say high fantasy? Because it's just two different. I've never heard that term was like extra fantasy.

So I was so high fantasy is farther from realistic. So my little pony like.

Well, that's that's hard to categorize. Getting to the category again.

Yeah, I mean, yes. So think of it more as a

Harry Potter Avenger. Have you not missed that laugh on the podcast? I did. Yeah, I mean, you're telling me

Rapidash isn't real. I guess the way to think about it is actually Avengers is fantasy.

Lord of the Rings is high fantasy. OK, there's more magic. I feel like there's more.

No, no, no, no, no. That's how I would view it. And it in terms of our Mamu, I've come to bark.

OK, because we have a different because I would say Avengers is fiction. But because I feel fantasy has some type of setting issue and some type of.

OK, that's true. That high fantasy is even more so. That is true. Most time in fantasy, there's a different setting.

It's not like high fantasy is going to have crazy orcs and all these things. It's fantasy.

You'll you'll you're a person, but you can. OK, so like Harry Potter. Just imagine what just imagine how it would feel if I.

I don't know. Was that Palpatine? Or that's exactly my fingers. My my thought was

Palpatine. Put whatever you want. Visual effects. Can we have a can we have something right here?

Lightning McQueen shooting from my. To catch out.

Is that what he says? Catch out. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've been in his antithesis. Good, good, good.

So I think we've derailed. But in a fun way. OK, but you said fantasy. So that would be like Harry Potter because they are.

Exactly. Magic. Well, some are my bloods, but. Well, still human. Well, they can still do magic wizarding world of Harry Potter.

They have like the different. What is it? The nine and three quarters terminal. I'm talking about the animals.

The I almost said Python. What is. Oh, yeah. Like the owl, the owl. The owls are real. What's my.

What's my real owls? Hippogriff. Yeah, I couldn't remember Buckbeak. What he was. What are the things that they pull up and they scream really loud?

Oh, the noise. Oh, mandrakes. Do they have things on it?

Where's the mandrake? I'm about to say, where's your. Where's his microphone? Give the man a microphone. Come on.

Mandrakes. Yes, Greg. So that would be just regular fantasy. But high fantasy would be tough.

I probably I don't know. I've kind of always considered high fantasy has something to do with kingdoms and kings and.

Yeah, a lot of times. Stuff like that, like high fantasy. But I listen, I don't know. So I think the question now becomes.

So where is the line? When does it go too far? Yeah, especially with fantasy.

And how would you participate? And so obviously you have one example, but. I do have scripture open because the entire because this conversation kind of reminded me of, you know, a whole lot of people are against the idea of magic in the first place.

And say magic. They think it's a cult. Right. Oh, cult. Oh, you see. Sinful, sinful, sinful.

So I would just like to point out, first of all, and this might shock the new

Christian, that magic in a sense is very real. It it exists.

Sure. That's right in here. Where's the camera? This is right in here. Magic. And there's never been recorded magic that has been nonsensical.

That is correct. I'll also say that. And so I'm I'm in. Um, you know, no,

I'm in first Samuel because I brought up I brought I brought a couple of different things. So in first Samuel, Saul, who came after Samuel, he's the ruler.

So the first king instead of judge. And he's having a bad time. He's not enjoying his life.

Samuel's dead. God is not answering. Saul said, God, like, show up and he's not answering him.

And so Samuel goes. Saul. Sorry. Saul goes and he finds somebody.

Let's see. First, Samuel. This is chapter twenty eight, verse seven. Saul then said to his servants, find me a woman who is a medium so I can go and consult her.

His servants replied, there is a woman at Indore who is a medium. You may have heard the term witch of Indore.

She's really a medium of Indore. Maybe she did to which I don't know. She's a medium of industry. Weigh as much as would.

She floats. So you would have to assume. I'm sorry, I can't help it.

She's dressed like one. I just don't dress me up like this. Did you?

A bit of it. We didn't even know. This is a false one. All right.

Back to scripture. Yes, sir. Verse eight. Saul disguised himself by putting on different clothes and set out with two of his men.

He did this because he said, don't be a witch. He's the one that had them removed. Yeah, he said, don't be a medium.

Don't be a macromancer. Don't be a witch. That's bad. And then he said, yeah, let's go find a witch.

They came to the woman at night and Saul said, consult a spirit for me. Bring up for me the one I tell you.

But the woman said to him, you surely know what Saul has done. So apparently he didn't just have on some fake mustache and glasses.

I don't know what happened here, how he has killed the mediums and the spiritists in the land.

Why are you setting up a trap for me to get me killed? And Saul swore to her, as surely as the Lord lives, nothing bad will happen to you because of this.

Who is it that you want me to bring up for you? The woman asked, bring up Samuel for me. When the woman saw

Samuel, she screamed. OK, so we've confirmed Samuel's dead.

Yeah. Right. We're talking about bringing up with and then she saw him and she screamed because she might not recognize

Saul, but she surely recognizes Samuel. She screamed and then asked Saul, why did you deceive me,

Saul? But the king said to her, don't be afraid. What do you see? So he doesn't see him. I see a spirit form coming up out of the earth.

The woman answered. So I'll ask her, what does he look like? An old man is coming up, she replied. He's wearing a robe.

Then Saul knew it was Samuel. Apparently he must have worn a lot of robes and he bowed his face to the ground and paid homage.

And then they had their little conversation. Which Samuel is not pleased.

Samuel's upset. He said, right. Yeah, literally. And we see this in today's like, why did you disturb my resting place?

Yeah, that's what he had that that moment. He said, why did you show up here?

First of all, I already told you God's going to abandon you. And here it happened. And, you know what I'm saying?

So we see that it very much is biblical that we have.

In this case, it would be, I guess, necromancy because he's dead and brought up. It's not, you know, and it's a spiritual medium.

So from that, sometimes people look at the wizarding world of Harry Potter and say it is sinful.

I have more, but I'd love to hear what you guys have to say on that. Well, no, I mean, he's right.

Magic is the biblical magic, particularly of the Old Testament and the New Testament.

We have Simon in Acts chapter eight. Maybe we have the obviously the magicians of Egypt.

Yeah, who are able to replicate a few, not all, but a few of the plagues. By the way,

I've always found that is amazing demonic power. They consider it a win when they can replicate some of the plagues that are being poured out on their people, like turning water to blood.

Like, yeah, we can do it, too. Not reverse it, but contribute to the issue and they consider that a win.

And then there's a few that can't. It is interesting to know which ones they can and can't. By the way, it's a little interesting study for you for later.

But anyway, yeah, they're clearly engaged in sin. So we have

Simon who repents and in the book of Acts, we have another time where one of the acts or penance is people burning their old sorcery material stuff.

So it's something they felt the need to repent of. So you're right that in the Bible, there is no positive light.

And I don't want to jump the curve too much. I think the difference is is what

Hermione calls magic is not what the magicians of Egypt are doing. What Gandalf is doing is not what is is not the same source of magic.

But I don't want to jump what you're trying to say. No, no, I agree. I was just also going to bring up.

I have a non scriptural source. It's quoted in scripture, but it is not scripture.

It's Pastor Josiah's very favorite book is the book of Enoch. There it is. It's the book of Enoch. Now, this is not scriptural.

It very likely is not historical. However, I wanted to bring it up because there is there's there.

I feel like it makes a couple of good points in regards to this and ways that we can think about it. So in the book of Enoch, it kind of follows in the beginning chapters the fall of what they call the watchers of heaven, which are these groups of angels.

I believe it was around 200 who ended up saying the women of earth are kind of hot.

Let's go down there and make them our wives. Yeah. Right. And so in chapter seven of the book of Enoch, which is not scriptural, it's not the

Bible. Let's see right here. So and all the others together then took unto themselves wives and each chose for himself one.

And they began to go unto them and to defile themselves with them. And they taught them charms and enchantments and the cutting of roots and made them acquainted with plants.

That's the first mention of where make what could possibly have been the birth of witchcraft.

They taught them charms, enchantments, cutting of roots and being made acquainted with plants.

And then it goes into specifically who taught what. This is chapter eight.

And there arose much godlessness. And they committed fornication and they were led astray and became corrupt in all their ways.

And then the names of these fallen angels are something or just something else. I'm going to try them because it's fun.

Simjaza taught enchantments and root cuttings. Armaros, the resolving of enchantments.

Barack Hajal, Barack Obama, Barack Obama. No, no, no, no, no, no.

Barack, you literally just had this removed from the algorithm. About 2000 people. No, you didn't even have a book.

Barack Hajal taught astrology. Kokabell, the constellations as a key.

All the knowledge of the clouds are a kill. The signs of the earth. Sham's ill the signs of the sun and sorry all the course of the moon.

And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven." So, arguments for astrology, arguments for what constitutes, what could have been, again, not scriptural, however, has existed for a very long time.

What could have been, in a theory, the birthplace of some of that witchcraft and all that, and none of which described when

Guardian Levio saw. It was the cutting of roots. It was, you know, it was very, much, much darker.

Doing potions to get certain spells done, and like you said...

The resolvement of enchantments implies curses, by the way. Right, yeah. Because you don't resolve an enchantment, you resolve a curse.

It's basically, how do you break it? So, I guess the question that I have is, like, how would someone participate, like, it's, would this be different than witchcraft?

But you're saying this is where you understand that witchcraft originated from. If any of this is to be believed, that's what it would be stating.

And how is that different than fantasy? Participating in fantasy. Participating in fantasy.

Because, okay, let me give you an example. Maybe this will help clearly cross the line.

I know somebody who has meditation stones. Like the crystals or whatever?

Yes, the crystals, the meditation crystals, spiritual, who believes there is legitimate power in these stones.

That is sinful to me. And that's, that's um, palm reading, fortune telling.

What you're trying to do is use non -god but spiritual power to achieve something.

That's a far cry from riding a Mickey Mouse ride at Disney World.

That's not the same thing. Both may be in the realm of fantasy, if we're talking about that, but one is, because, make sure everyone is fully aware.

The spiritual world is more real than this world. The spiritual world, this is the fake one.

Maybe fake's too strong a word. This is the temporary one, if you will. This is, this would be the temporary abode, the spiritual realm.

Uh, someone posted the other day, and it's a good way of thinking. Humans don't have a spirit, they are a spirit.

They have a body. And that gets the mindset right. We have a body for 70 years, and we'll have a body again, but it'll be a glorified one.

The spiritual world is the real world, is the eternal world. Drawing on that power, the

Egyptian magicians were genuinely able to do a couple of those plagues.

They were genuinely able to turn their staffs into serpents. Okay? The Witch of Endor was genuinely able to call upon a spiritual power who was not

Yahweh, who was not Jesus, to achieve a supernatural feat. Engaging in that, using that power, is where you cross a line that is wholly blasphemous and sinful.

That's a far cry from Mickey Mouse Clubhouse. So, that's what I would say.

Okay, well, thinking about fantasy, it made me think about one of our previous episodes about the furries, because that's a form.

Of course, you had to bring that back up. I did. Because it's a form, it's a form of fantasy. I'm so happy. I'm so happy to be able to hear that word coming out of me.

I made sure to bring it up just because you were back on today. Yeah, and then when I made the comment about going to a Grizzlies game, and he made me think how that would not help the scenario.

I'm like, oh, okay, so we've got to think through this one too. But it makes me think of that, because that is a form for some people of fantasy, but then we also talked before we started rolling about LARPing, and you said you didn't know it means.

So, it's live action role play. So, to me, my understanding is you go to a park, somewhere public, and play a

D &D in person, because it's just like role playing a script. No, I saw these guys at U of M, you know the ones you put witches, they're like who have a broomstick and are playing, what's the game called?

Quidditch. Yeah, kind of, almost, but no. Most of the time, most of the time when people are talking about LARPing, they have a group, they get together in a park, and they, you know, it's sword and shield, bow, whatever, but it's all made of like cardboard, and they got pillows wrapped around themselves, and they just go out there and, you know.

Wail on each other. Wail on each other, and they're just live action role playing, you know, as if they were, you know, in a war or whatever.

But I feel like live action role playing is a little different from being, you know, with the furry and stuff, because there's a difference between fantasy and fantasizing.

Because fantasy, you know, is involving yourself in a different world or reality, whereas fantasizing is kind of, where in that way it's a lot more sexual, where it's just like you are trying to live out a sexual fantasy, whereas LARPing, if something around there is sexual, something's gone terribly wrong.

So what you're saying there, make sure you said fantasy and fantasizing.

So when any of us go to the theater and we watch a play, we have a willing suspension of disbelief.

We understand that we're actually sitting in a chair in the audience, but we are pretending for a moment that, if nothing but for a moment, that death of a salesman, this dude is really in front of us, and that it's not an actor.

Or if we want to pick a fun one and not have such a depressing one, we can go to a different play.

But anyway, yeah, Technicode of many colors or whatever, right? So the difference in what

Hunter's saying there is there's an entertainment in which you are engaging with that which is being produced, knowing full well that is not actually you, and this is just a temporary entertainment,

I think is what you're getting at. Whereas fantasizing is you're trying to make the fake your world.

Yeah, you're trying to put yourself within that. And I guess that's my line between watching

Harry Potter and trying to perform witchcraft, right? It's like, one is entertainment, one is my intent,

I think is the main difference. One, I'm trying to, as you put it, I'm trying to call on a power, a spiritual power for some intent that is ungodly, right?

Because if it was godly, then I would be calling on God. So, I'm calling on some spiritual being, right, that is not

God for power. And one is, right, one is just literally like anything you watch, basically.

If anything that is not real would be fairly close to, they would be in the same boat as Harry Potter.

Everything except sports that you watch. Right, yeah. Well, like when I was in high school - Playing Mario. Playing Mario would literally be on the same track, right?

There's magic in Mario. Okay, Pokemon was really big when we were growing up and I went to a private school at the time where they did not allow any type of like clothing or whatever of that because it was like a show about witchcraft or whatever.

Like, it wasn't. And so, my mom, in her spite, bought me

Pokemon shoes to wear to school. Oh, that's awesome. And I still, and she's like, there's nothing demonic about the show.

It's little animal creatures and like they go on these pokeball things. But then my husband was not allowed to watch

Harry Potter growing up. His grandma would not allow him because she heard that it was witchcraft, but she didn't know.

She just found out what people told her. You know how I do that? Ava's not allowed to watch it yet.

Pokemon or Harry Potter? Well, either, but Harry Potter. She will in a couple years. Yeah, because she can differentiate between fantasy and reality.

If you want to do the disclaimer thing, I'm about to say the truth out loud again, so. It's the same thing.

Truth alert. Seriously. It's the same thing we've said before with Santa Claus. Yeah. Exact same thing.

I do the same thing when we watch Avengers. I do the same thing when we watch, what's the name of that?

Encanto. I do the same thing when Christmas time comes around. Ava, we can go take a picture with Santa Claus at Bass Pro Shop.

We can dress up. We can play games. We can go sit in the sleigh, but that's not real.

With that one, I always tell her, I can look at my daughter and say, only

God knows everything and knows when you're sleeping and awake, and look at her and tell her the truth. I don't like to give someone characteristics only

God has and then say that's true. That's a problem for me, right? Yeah, we'll watch

Encanto, but you understand that Louisa cannot actually lift a church. You understand

Tony Stark cannot actually, well, he's a bad example.

Yeah, he's not a superhero. But still, his technology, whatever, right? Hulk can't really get strong because he gets mad.

But if it's for fun, I don't mind that. Well, I think it's not overly ridiculous to put the same claim on humanity, right?

No, you need to be the person God created you. You are not actually a cat. You are not actually

Hermione Granger. Watching a three -hour movie for entertainment is not the same as trying to become that thing.

Right. 100%. Is that kind of logic? That's the line for me, is what's your intent?

Are you trying to become something, or are you watching a show? Or call on something for power.

Right. Right. That's a whole other line. Let's summarize. Let's summarize. Go. Summary.

Witchcraft, wizardry, magic. It's sinful in real life.

I mean, if you are, you know, breaking baby's bones and boiling it in a pot or whatever they do, you know, like that's wrong.

I feel like that's pretty obvious. It almost speaks for itself. But if you are an enjoyer of the fact that you're

House Ravenclaw, you know, I can't see how that would equate biblically.

And she's going to hate me for sharing this because she's chained. But my mother did not allow me to watch the television show,

The Fairly Odd Parents, growing up. Oh, that was gold. Because it was witchcraft. Right.

And nowadays she's like, I can't even believe I ever. And I was just like, I know. She's like, I'm so sorry. I'm telling you.

I was like, no, no, it's fine. I don't know. It's a cartoon. Took that part of your childhood away from you. Right. Right. But I was like, there are certain things.

Cosmos and all in Swords and Anger. Those are the only two. Yeah. Right. Yeah. What's his actual name?

Wait, in the show? Yeah. Oh my God. Jorgen von Strangle. Well done.

Landon watches it weekly. It's been a minute for sure, yeah. Okay. But also to highlight and finish your point.

Yeah. Calling on a non -godly spiritual being for power,

I think is also. If you were actually doing that. Yeah. That is also like the. Totally different. Right.

That's the trying to receive power. Right. Not Acts 1 .8, right. Not receiving power from the

Holy Spirit, but trying to receive power from something else. Yeah. Correct. And so, you know. But I just to reiterate your point,

I can watch Rocky. And not everything Rocky does is ethically acceptable in my mind.

Okay. So I shouldn't try to emulate my life completely after Rocky Balboa.

Right. But I can still watch it for entertainment. So watching Harry Potter or trying to emulate that and actually call on a power.

You understand what I'm saying? That would be where the line is crossed. Yeah. And I think, you know, look, as parents making decisions like this,

I don't think that you're scarring your kids or doing anything wrong by saying you can't watch that by saying no, because that's your job.

That's your job as a parent is to guard and to guide. But the thing is, you just you don't want to say no, because it's witchcraft.

And you have no idea why. Right. Like you have nothing to back up. Right. And so that's why

I'm saying, you know, let's make that different. Differentiate. Let's differentiate it.

And let's separate these things and figure out, okay, it's okay if you say, I don't want to, you know, feed that or spoon feed that to the kids, because it could get the wrong idea.

Or, you know, you could also just communicate, you know, hey, here's the difference. Here's what this is, you know.

Right. The line of reality or play, when a kid can distinguish that really well, that helps you a lot.

Yes. You know, I'll never forget this kid came back from Universal after they finished

Hogwarts. And I was working in the children's department and he had a wand and he kept going

Avada Kedavra. Dang, kill shot, kill shot! After like the first time

I let it go. And then he actually got mad at a kid and said

Avada Kedavra. Oh, yeah. That's no good. If y 'all don't know what that spell means, it's like a kill spell.

That kid was too young to be watching that. I took the wand from him and threw it away, by the way.

I gave it back later because I forgot I had thrown it away. I was about to say, dang, those ain't cheap. We're on the same wavelength, man.

I was about to say, like, if my youngest nephew had watched Harry Potter, there's a 100 % chance he would try to kill everybody he saw.

Your mom told me a story about that kid. Yeah, this kid was like four or five, maybe.

And he couldn't distinguish between reality. Yeah, I remember that. He was older than that. He was older than that.

He was older than that. He was older than that. Maybe in age. Yes, that is what people say.

That's what people mean when they say older. They mean by age. Yeah. I don't remember him being older than that, but I'll take your word for it.

He was, because I don't think a four -year -old is saying Avada Kedavra, but yes. They could say it real cute -like.

They can repeat. Why southern? Avada Kedavra. Why southern? Because we're southerners.

Why are you doing, like, a southern bell accent for the kid? I do it all the time. Well, I'm talking about the children's.

Children's. At work now, I have, we're a bunch of whole 26, 22, 24 -year -olds all in the middle.

If it's closing time. Even numbers only. 26, 24, 22. We're all way.

Our numbers are right out, baby. We're all far too old for it, but whenever we're real slow, we'll grab random objects and sneak up and say,

Avada Kedavra. And I don't think we're sinning by doing that, right?

Do you ever do Wingardium Leviosa? I know I do Wingardium Leviosa.

Oh, man. If you've never seen Harry Potter, the first two are a waste of time. The next six are great.

Okay. I disagree. They're not a waste of time. They are. Right? Knight to E3. Right. Yeah, but you have the greatest line in Harry Potter.

If you're older than 13. Not me, not Hermione, you. It's the greatest line.

Do you just not remember that scene at all? They're all on the chess. If I make my move, you're free to check the cane.

Oh, no. What's he doing? He's going to sacrifice himself. Do you want to get that stone or not?

Yeah, I mean, the author just wanted to make a book or movie, whatever, for like a 12 year old.

Yeah. Right. So they just get older. Right. But I watched all of them in a two week time period at the age of 25.

Right. The first two were lame. Same. Yeah. I did the exact same thing. Yeah, that's the way life works.

I was 26, but that's all right. Yeah, that's the way the books go, is you're supposed to get darker and more adult.

Mature at growth. Half -blood prince is the best one. Yeah. So to be fair, that's what the author decided to do.

So I don't think you're eight year old, but I would be more strict than the author. I would wait probably slightly later.

But again, I'm not a parent. So you do you with your children. You know your child best. Yeah. Don't curse people.

Don't enchant them. Yeah. Don't cut roots unless you're cooking. Yeah. Yeah.

Like potatoes are roots. Carrots are roots. Yeah. Yeah. There are a lot of foods that are roots.

Like ginger. Right. Yeah. Ginger. Squash and zucchini are above ground, right? Yeah. Hey, look, man. I'm not a botanist.

Garlic. Garlic. Garlic is underground. Yeah. He didn't say former.

I'm not a botanist. I would have loved you. Garlic's below ground. Yeah.

Yes, it is. Yeah. Really? We have garlic in our garden right now. Yeah. It's underground. I would have loved our turnip tree.

Yeah. Turnips are root vegetables. But the rest of onions are beets. They're beets.

No. Okay. Onions are the bulb, which is underground. And then there's like stock that is like green onions.

Yeah. But there are bulbs that are underground. Just don't cut them. Don't cut them and curse other people.

I don't know. Eat the onion. I don't know what to tell you. All right. Well, on that note, we've learned a lot about agriculture.

Yeah. I mean, that's what this episode is about, right? Absolutely. New title is agriculture.

Is agriculture a sin? Is agriculture the staple of America or a sin? If you've made it this far,

God bless you for sticking around. We love you guys. And until next time. Deuces.