D&D and Fantasy: A Gateway to the Supernatural? | S6 E6

And we're back at it with the point-taking podcast and today I'm here. What doesn't matter? Because I know very little about the subject material and it's here because she is the single most important person in the podcast.

Second place goes to lol. And a hunter and Jeff are here because y 'all asked to have good guests on and they know what they're talking about. We've already had a lot of fun quoting parks and rec and all that stuff.

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Trying to spread the word. We are simply trying to get out the message and tackle subjects that maybe aren't talked about too much on other podcasts that's the whole point and and. Debate through them work through them talk through them to figure out how Christians should respond and how we should live and carry ourselves in the world today, so that is our goal and today.

What Dungeons & Dragons Is and Why People Ask if Christians Should Play It

We've got a fun one Anna. What are we doing today?

So this was actually a listener question.

Yes.

Because this listener has a friend who participates in D &D or Dungeons and Dragons and so he wanted to know if Christians should participate in that or like. Other types of video games like I don't know.

Halo like the ones where you shoot people. What are some of the other ones?

Yeah, something like Call of Duty.

Yeah, like any of those or like other types of fantasy play. So should Christians do any of that stuff? So Pastor Josiah and I are not nerds.

No, we got nerds on here, but I do that.

You're married to one. Yeah, but doesn't mean I speak it.

I.

Explain that to me, but so what's funny is I think all but one to the listener question is Anna speaking about. But no, I think it's funny because all but two people in this room have played.

With my husband D &D with my husband and there's seven people in the room and the two people who haven't played with them are.

I know three then. Yeah, it's three because Dalton hasn't played. That was really sad. Why did you?

Yeah, I was that because you don't play that or you were not invited. He thinks he's too cool.

Yeah, like he's one of these like oh.

Legitimately I was like that in high school early college. I would have said no I was I wouldn't have been interested.

So it was lame.

Yeah, I didn't understand the the I guess appeal. Yeah, I guess the appeal and the fun in it.

Yeah, the the media's makes it all just like yeah.

I've asked this question. I think on two podcasts, but there are non nerds. So yeah, go ahead. Stranger things. Season one basement. Are they playing Dungeons and Dragons? Yes. Yeah. Got it now.

They're playing everything Lee nerd. Yeah, they play it every season.

I tried to skip season three out of my mind since such a waste of a season.

But I don't remember anything to her. Okay, and every season they're playing D &D. Really? Yeah. Like all the bad guys, they're all names of D &D villains. So that's why they have all this actual. Yeah like a Demogorgon like yeah, it's a villain and but I was told that whoever the.

Dungeon master is yeah, very good. Thank you can make up whatever rules he wants whenever once or whatever time he wants.

That's kind of a way start that's kind of like the start of my answer to the D &D part of the question.

What is D &D though? Yeah, I don't know what it is.

So the basic idea the way D &D was created was created by a guy in like the late 90s. Basically, what happened is the 90s?

Set in the 70s, so that's false advertisement anachronism. No, you're right. Yeah, you're right. He is older than that.

So basically what happened is he read Lord of the Rings that was a great sense of inspiration from him. So Tolkien yeah Tolkien absolutely amazing. But then he in a way quantified and qualified the races and Lord of the Rings and so.

He gave personalities and attributes to dwarves to elves to goblins to things like that. So basically he just set up a structure of how To create a character and how to communicate action, so that would be dice rolling.

So if I want to do something I roll a 20-sided die that says how successful I was to do it. But in sense the dungeon master sets a scene and me as a player Responds to the scene so we introduce all the content everything at that point.

It's improvisation.

Yeah, it's 100 guided improvisation because the dungeon master will have like he'll have settings and sets and Certain things that he might want to try and guide it to so like if you fail here.

Then so however you the way to win is to do whatever the dungeon master set up for that day.

That is a way to look at it. That's a way to look at it. It's more of okay. A scene just take literally the Lord of the Rings. So let's say you have to defend.

I do speak Lord of the Rings.

Okay.

Gandalf coming down the hill fighting that whole battle. Just imagine a scene and a challenge right from the villains. The villains would be the DM. He opposes some obstacle. Or it could be hey you walk into a Store, you know, you're about to go on a voyage.

Maybe you should buy some supplies. It's like so it literally could be. Whatever the deal. All right, so it's not winning. It's more of moving the story along the allure of the game.

Is that if you play a video game or if you watch a movie it has a set? Thing like if you're if you're in a video game, you have certain objectives. You haven't right or some type of. Place where you can't go here because you have to go finish the objective but with Dungeons Dragons.

You're just put in a situation and you said here's what's going on. And then you just have to literally pretend that you're in that world and find out somehow. Do you somehow make a difference and can stop it or whatever it is?

So like in our game? Donovan put us in prison. So we all just met in a prison and had to escape it then we found out. Like where we were who was in charge and all that stuff and we're just trying to fight.

And if I may. The listener asked should Christians play this. What. Why would that question even be asked from what you two are just describing?

Okay, so. Kind of like as I was starting That's a fair question it really is a fair question because as I was like kind of alluding to but I guess the more direct way to say this would.

Be.

Because the DM and the players introduce all content and dialogue actions. If Something unsavory happens it would because we introduce it. So I was to do some dark right, right. So it depends on who you're playing with and your morals.

You set the players in the DM set the rating you set.

Everything so rating like PG PG, right? So I keep going to a bar I rolled to seduce the bartender, but you can you do that, but I found out that the DM has to act out. Yeah.

But that's the important part you have to remember. It's like, okay, so if is anything unrighteous about it. Well that depends on who you're playing.

So it's Donovan and what was really really funny is when love to have.

Is this in person or no? Unfortunately, it's only one how we played. It was online, but not of an active stuff out. No. No, hold on.

No, he. When we very very first started he said Okay, rule number one, and I'm not gonna say this a second time. You may not roll to seduce Anyone he said I am NOT going to roleplay being seduced by you.

Was like you're not allowed to harm or. Like I guess I shouldn't say the word troll. You're not allowed to harm or negatively affect another team member.

Yeah, because what could be really funny is if we're in a really big boss battle and I'm fighting with him and He's like in a really bad position and I could really save him when I say I rolled to slice Jeff's Achilles tendon.

Was not is allowed everywhere else I imagine there's a lot of Potential for like demonic.

False God. Yeah magic. Can you play with me? Yeah. Yeah. 100 not with Donovan. I mean in general, right? It depends. So that's the whole thing about should Christians play with it.

Well, it depends who you're playing with. Would y 'all play if it was that kind of stuff?

Lose appeal because the fun part for me is who you're playing with. Exactly I tell that when people ask me is D &D fun. I say it is 100 who you're playing with. It isn't that is the whole picture if you're playing with friends who all have a similar idea of How they want the game played in terms of limits.

It can be so funny because y 'all can do really goofy stuff and nothing is you know, harmful or unrighteous. It's all good humor, right. Because we call do you can do whatever you want. But if you have people who go farther than you're willing to go then it gets awkward.

You're like, I'm not really comfortable like this and ruins all the fun.

So that was one reason why Donovan left one of those groups that was playing with and Jeff told me this. You know cuz like Donovan I just don't talk about that stuff. But he said that there was one person in the group.

He was not a DM for this. He was just a part of the campaign. Is that what you guys call it, right? That's so learning learning terms. But he said they were part of this campaign and one of the girls within the campaign said she was gonna roll to Rape somebody and he's just like, okay like that's you know, that's not what and so it took the fun out of it, right?

Yeah, and that that was a thing really crazy. Have a spell for that.

One.

Of the things that I enjoyed like I was telling you guys before we started is the room that he had his computer in at. The time was like backed up to our bathroom in our bedroom. So I could hear like just hearing you guys laugh and then there's be sometimes when I'd go in there like hey I have a quick question and I can hear on his headphones like all of the laughing just coming from that and I'm like, oh.

You're a little nerd friends having fun. I'm gonna go in here and watch TV like an adult. And so it's he has his own he has his own thing and but I don't know.

I just never knew it could be like that. Is this the same as magic the gathering? No.

Not even close. How are we farther apart? I will say.

What do you mean it can't be farther apart. Magic. The gathering is a card game that you play with each other like you would.

I mean, it's not like poker but just think in that realm and then this is.

Yes, yes much more like.

Answer than pastor Josiah. Good job. Yes.

No, okay.

So is that one where they have like the five cards and they're like really really expensive. Donovan was just telling me about that Sanderson. Do you remember Sanderson? He played the Brandon Sanderson.

You were the thing around this. Yeah, and the card was valued at like $30 ,000.

So.

I'm talking.

My gosh who bought it literally like. Three years ago. Someone bought the most expensive magic card. It's worth three million dollars. So sometimes people right card, right? We post Malone post Malone bought a $3 ,000 ,000 magic card.

Rightly. Make fun of how much sports cards are worth.

Right same idea, but well, but they are based off real people and their real attributes.

Yeah, but you can't really play or do anything in a case.

Make your so the the difference between what hunter saying what you're saying is magic this card. Magic together the creature has an ability. So it could be something of high value if you played it in a game it could win you the game.

So it's actually so. Is the counterfeit market for this card game. Probably all through. I don't know.

Honestly, I'm not that into magic that I know the counterfeit game. I've only played it once with Nick from your story earlier.

He taught me when we were very young and I was like, that was cool. Let's play it again, and we never did.

So I have no.

Mostly my fault, but I was like, yeah. But what I was saying about Dungeon and Dragons and I think it's to Jeff's point is it kind of mirrors. In a certain way real life in that the choices that you make and the person that you decide to be really depends on.

You know where the sin comes from, right? So if you decide that you're gonna be sinful in real life. Then you're gonna be sinful in real life. And if you're gonna be sinful in the game, you're gonna be simple in the game.

You have the opportunity to choose.

Regardless, like nothing in July Donovan. Have you ever played and you were like, hey, man, I'm not playing with you guys no more.

Yeah, have y 'all played. I've only ever played with Donovan that one. That's the only Experience that I've personally had with it. Yeah, so I've only ever had the positive.

So you've never played like I know. Isn't there like an actual board game version of this or like is it. I know. I mean, there's age is I was like I know the new age part is like the computer like you guys had done but I didn't know if people still played.

I was.

Never interested until Donovan asked me to be in. So here's kind of what happens.

So you can buy like I could buy a map for like X amount of money and in that map There's a book for the DM and it kind of walks to a story. So what a lot of DMS will do is they'll buy a book that has a story and then they'll cross out and change things.

Yeah, they want to change and then they read it like you have a map you have a little character the narrator. Yes, so literally you have that your character and they're like, alright y 'all are in The Shire, okay, and you start reading the beginning of Lord of the Rings, you're like, okay now a wizard Gandalf.

You know him he comes into your house and asks you to go and do a dangerous quest. What do you do? That's what Dungeons Dragons if you've never seen Lord of the Rings that's under what do you do. Gandalf came into your house?

He asked you to help him on a dangerous adventure. What do you do? Oh, you're asking me? Yeah, that's is Boromir going with me.

That's a good one. You look at you. Come on. We're playing Dungeons Dragons. That's a sin stop.

You look at Boromir. He nods and says I'm with you Frodo. Oh.

You mean yeah.

Yeah, that's literally that's literally. Dungeons Dragons is somebody's what just happened. Yeah, what. Somebody's prompting you to follow along the story or say no, so obviously the questioner.

No, no, the questioner. Has obviously seen a less tactful version of this.

Otherwise, they wouldn't have asked the question and I'll say this when I was talking about it With Donovan for like the first time or something here at church. There was somebody that came up and was just like are you actually talking about that?

That's don't play like that's Satanic that's satanic and it's evil. And so I was like, oh shoot. Yeah, like because if you grew up in the 70s 80s and all that stuff. Because it was the first mainstream bring into your house.

Where you're fighting demons you so like now we see it as the point of weight you're fighting demons. You're not worshipping them, but they see it as oh that there's a demon in that game. Therefore. It's evil kind of thing.

So there's the whole myth. There's a whole conception of it being or perception. Sorry of it being Demonic or satanic because that there are creatures of fantasy in them, right?

So in my mind it literally is. If D &D is a sin then literally by definition Lord of the Rings watching Lord of the Rings would have to be a sin.

Improv comedy would have to be a sin. Yeah, that's fair. Anything improvisational would have to be like because intrinsically you if you have you'd have to say that Dungeon Dragons is intrinsically sinful and.

Yeah, because human beings are a part of it. So it's I mean that's literally basically the idea.

But you can make it what you yeah.

I kind of I kind of knew it as what I was talking to Anna about is it's almost equated to The the person who created D &D is like creating a language like the English language. Now Anna and I get to have a conversation and if we talk and gossip that would be sin.

But it has nothing to do with the person who created the English language, right? They just gave us a structure and tools to communicate right and follow and Then we chose to either Do it correctly or incorrectly morally, right?

So that's kind of more of the way I view D &D in the sense of is it sin. It depends.

100 on the players in DM. Okay, make some. You have any other questions about the nerd stuff about that one. No, I got that one. What he's saying is yeah, you make it as pure and fun as you want or as Dark as you want and that's up to you guys and yep a Christian should not play the dark way, obviously.

But otherwise just a bunch of friends having fun, yeah, yeah. Sounds like a plan to me.

Yeah, cuz honestly also we didn't even mention it but Donovan our DM also had a rule that you had to want to do In a certain way the right thing, right? You could do an honorable thing in a Roundabout way, but you couldn't be like, okay.

I'm actually gonna turn evil and betray my party. We you weren't even allowed to do that. You had to want to complete and defeat evil. That was like a base set line, right? Like you had to want to beat the evil.

I had a character flaw where I was a pirate.

So, you know if we went somewhere, I'm just like, uh, all right, maybe I'll steal a couple of coins, you know.

Yeah, and make the character Ron Swanson be in Dungeons Dragons. 100 people do down here. Your DM is yeah.

So Donovan played one where he was a bunny from Monty Python, no, just a cute little bunny. So Josiah Donovan played a whole campaign.

I'm trying to be the guy from the bridge. What was his name Tim?

No, no, no, no. Tim is the magician who shot the fire bolts, yeah, so I call me Tim.

Who's the Trevor. I. Roger. Roger the shrubber. I thought it was Tim. No, it's Roger. I'll accept correction I was wrong about Lord of the Rings, but I'm right about Monty Python every time. But yeah, so Donovan played Randy Savage.

He played a whole campaign as a WWE wrestler. So like when the big bad guy he tried like getting the bad guy in a full Nelson.

He said a quote the cream always rises to the top and I did not know who said that quote. He's people in salvage, he was wrong and he goes Josiah you're telling me you've never seen this video right here.

This is the guy from spider-man one, right.

I.

Got you for three minutes.

Any savage who's like the queen. Yeah, oh he's right. It's your top. Yeah, he's shown you to wait. That's where that comes from. Is that good? That's him. Yeah, is that for spider-man one?

No, no.

So is his name in spider-man? Yes spider-man one. He had long black hair. Yeah.

Yeah, macho man. Randy Savage was.

Cannot believe that I've never seen. Yeah, it's a very famous like video. He's a goofball. Randy Savage is a goofball. I grew up watching. He calls it hillbilly soap opera, yeah, that's exactly so accurate.

That's all okay.

So I.

Think we've talked about D &D to death. What's the other one? I believe the question was fantasy. Yeah. Like fantasy, so did we so I guess fantasy in general is a tough thing to quantify because is Parks and Rec fantasy.

Yeah, I mean it's fiction. So is what fantasy has a Magic or like.

Non.

Realisticness. Yeah, so I guess.

Always involve some type of Ability or power beyond human ability, right? Yeah, so there's usually has to do with some type of magic for example Arthur in the round table would be considered fantasy. Merlin, yeah, you see I'm saying like most of the time if it's a fantasy or a high fantasy There's gonna be some type of.

Magic say high fantasy because it's just too different. I've never heard that term. What does that mean extra?

So high fantasy is farther from realistic. Mm-hmm. So my little pony like. So think of it more as. Okay, Avengers Avengers is fantasy. Lord of the Rings is high fantasy. Okay, there's more magic.

I would view it in it in terms or Mamu. I've come to bark.

Okay, because we have a different because I would say Avengers is fiction. But because I feel fantasy has some type of setting issue and some type of. Okay, that's true.

Fantasy is even more. So that is true. Most time in fantasy. There's a different setting.

It's not high fantasy is gonna have crazy Orcs and all these things right fantasy. You'll you'll you're a person but you can. Okay, so like Harry Potter just imagine what just imagine how it's really fun.

My thought was Palpatine. Put whatever you want. Visual effects. Can we have. Can we have something right. Lightning McQueen shooting from? I think we've derailed but.

Fantasies so that would be like Harry Potter because they are exactly magic Human. Well, they can still do magic wizarding world of Harry Potter. They have like the different. What is it? The nine and three-quarters terminal.

Talking about the animals the I almost said Python. What is. Oh, yeah. The owls are real. What's What he was, um, what are the things that they pull up and they scream really loud.

Mandrakes.

About to say where's your where's his microphone? Give the man a microphone. Come on mandrakes. Yes.

So that would be just regular fantasy, but high fantasy.

Probably I don't know. I've kind of always considered high fantasy has something to do with kingdoms and kings and yeah. A lot of times stuff like that like high fantasy, but I listen I don't know.

The Difference Between Fantasy, Magic, and Witchcraft

So I think the question now becomes so important. Where is the line? When does it go too far?

Especially with fantasy. And how would you.

Obviously you have one example, but I do have scripture open because the entire because this conversation kind of reminded me of. You know on a whole lot of people are against the idea of magic in the first place and say magic the idea.

Right. Well. Sinful sinful sinful. So I would just like to point out First of all, and this might shock the new Christian that magic in a sense is very real. It it exists. Sure. That's right in here. Where's the camera?

This is right in here magic.

And.

There's never been recorded magic that has been Nonsensical that is correct. I'll also say that and so I'm I'm in Your next. No, no, no, I'm in first Samuel because I brought up I brought I brought a couple of different things.

So in first Samuel Saul who came after Samuel, he's the ruler so the first king instead of judge and He's having a bad time. He's not enjoying his life. Samuel's dead. God is not answering Saul said God Like show up and he's not answering him.

And so Samuel goes. Saul sorry Saul goes and he finds somebody. Let's see first Samuel. This is chapter 28 verse 7. Saul then said to his servants find me a woman who is a medium so I can go and consult her.

His servants replied. There is a woman at Endor who is a medium. You may have heard the term witch of Endor. She's really a medium of Endor. Maybe she did switch. I don't know. She's a medium of industry way as much as would.

She floats so you would have to assume.

Dress me up like this. Did you?

Verse 8. Saul disguised himself by putting on different clothes and set out with two of his men. He did this because he said don't be a witch. He's the one that had them removed. Yeah, he said don't be a medium.

Don't be a witch. That's bad. And then he said, yeah, let's go find a witch. They came to the woman at night and Saul said consult a spirit for me bring up for me the one I tell you. But the woman said to him you surely know what Saul has done.

So apparently he didn't just have on some fake mustache and glasses. I don't know what happened here. How he has killed the mediums and the spiritists in the land. Why are you setting up a trap for me to get me killed?

Then Saul swore to her as surely as the Lord lives. Nothing bad will happen to you because of this. Who is it that you want me to bring up for you? The woman asked bring up Samuel for me. When the woman saw Samuel she screamed.

Okay, so we've confirmed Samuel's dead. Yeah, right. We're talking about bringing up. What's. And then she saw him and she screamed because she might not recognize Saul but she surely recognizes Samuel.

She screamed and then asked Saul. Why did you deceive me Saul? But the king said to her don't be afraid. What do you see? So he doesn't see him. I see a spirit form coming up out of the earth the woman answered.

So I'll ask her. What does he look like an old man is coming up. She replied He's wearing a robe then Saul knew it was Samuel. Apparently he must have worn a lot of robes. And he bowed his face to the ground and paid homage and then they had their little conversation.

Which Samuel is not pleased.

Yeah, literally. And and we see this in today's like why did you disturb my resting place? Yeah, like that's what he had that that moment. He said why did you show up here? First of all, I already told you God's gonna abandon you.

And here it happened. And you know, I'm saying so we see that it very much is biblical that we have. In this case, it would be I guess necromancy because he's dead and brought up it's not you know, and this is a spiritual medium.

So from that sometimes people look at the wizarding world of Harry Potter and.

Say it is.

Sinful. I have more but I'd love to hear what you guys have to say on that.

Well, no, I mean he's right magic is the biblical Magic particularly of the Old Testament and the New Testament. We have Simon in Acts chapter 8. Maybe we have the obviously the magicians of Egypt. Yeah.

Are able to replicate a few not all but a few of the plagues by the way I've always found that is amazing demonic power. They consider it a win when they can replicate some of the plagues that are being poured out on their people.

Yeah, like turning water to blood. Look. Yeah, we can do it, too. Not reverse it but contribute to the issue. Consider that a win. Yeah, and then there's a few they can't it is interesting to know which ones they can and can't my way.

It's a little interesting study for you for later. But anyway, yeah. They're clearly engaged in sin. So we have Simon who repents in the book of Acts we have another time where One of the acts of repentance is people burning their old Sorcery material stuff.

So it's something they felt the need to repent of so you're right that in the Bible there is no Positive light and I don't want to jump the curve too much. I think the difference is is What Hermione and Cole's magic is not what the magicians of Egypt were doing.

What the Gandalf is doing is not what? Is is not the same source of magic, but I don't want to jump what you're trying to say.

No, no, I agree. I was just also gonna bring up I Have a non-scriptural source. It's quoted in Scripture, but it is not Scripture. It's pastor. Josiah's very favorite book is the book of Enoch. There it is the book of Enoch.

Now this is not scriptural. It very likely is not historical. However, I wanted to bring it up because there is. There's there. I feel like it makes a couple of good points in regards to this in ways that we can think about it.

So in the book of Enoch it kind of follows in the beginning chapters the fall of What they call the watchers of heaven, which are these groups of angels? I believe it was around 200 who ended up saying The women of earth are kind of hot.

Let's go down there and make them our wives. Yeah, right. And so in chapter 7 of the book of Enoch, which is not scriptural. It's not the Bible.

Um.

Let's see right here. So and all the others together then took unto themselves wives and each chose for himself one and they began to go Unto them and to defile themselves with them and they taught them charms and enchantments And the cutting of roots and made them acquainted with plants that's the first mention of Where make what could possibly have been the birth of witchcraft and they taught them charms Enchantments cutting of roots and being made acquainted with plants.

And then it goes into Specifically who taught what? This is chapter 8. And there arose much godlessness and they committed fornication and they were led astray and became corrupt in all their ways and then the names of These fallen angels or something or just something else.

I'm gonna try him because it's fun. Simjaza Taught enchantments and root cuttings are morose. The resolving of enchantments. Baraka Jal Barack Obama Barack Obama.

You literally just had this removed from the.

Baraka Jal taught astrology. Kokabell the constellations as a keel the knowledge of the clouds are a keel the signs of the earth Shamsiel the signs of the Sun and sorry all the course of the moon. And as men perished they cried and their cry went up.

To heaven.

So.

Arguments for astrology. Arguments for you know, what constitutes what could have been? The again not scriptural however exist has existed for a very long time. What could have been in a theory the birthplace of some of that witchcraft and all that and none of which?

Described when guardian Levio song. It was the cutting of roots. It was you know, it was very.

Much much darker doing potions to get certain spells done. And like you said.