January 13, 2020 Show with Andrew Rappaport on “Andrew Interviews Chris Arnzen at the 2018 and 2019 G3 Conferences”

Iron Sharpens Iron

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown,

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron This is a radio platform in which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation

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To make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host

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Chris Arnzen Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida Champaign County, Illinois and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming to iron sharpens iron Radio .com I would like to greet you on this something's day of the month of something 2020

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I can't get any more specific than that because this is a pre -recorded show and I'm not sure of the exact air date but Chris Arnzen and I Eric Nielsen are going to be going to the g3 conference in the next few days and So today we have a very special broadcast with two interviews that were done at the g3 conference in 2018 and 2019 by Andrew Rappaport in 2018

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Andrew attempted to turn the tables on Chris and instead of being interviewed by him tried to Get Chris to answer questions about his own history how he started iron sharpens iron radio and That didn't quite work, but it's a good interview anyway, and it meshes well with the interview that Andrew did in 2019 where he let

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Chris know ahead of time what he was intending to do and and so here is Andrew Rappaport interviewing

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Chris at the 2018 g3 conference Chris Arnzen here again at the

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G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia and I have with me as someone that I've known for quite a while You've if you listen to iron sharpens iron radio for any considerable length of time

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You may recognize the name Andrew Rappaport who has been a guest on the program Typically, he's been interviewed by phone, but we have another opportunity to have him interviewed face to face

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He is the founder of striving for eternity Ministries is also a

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Jewish believer and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio Andrew Rappaport Well, Chris, thank you very much again.

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It's always good to see you face to face as well Amen praise God and why don't you let our listeners know who have not heard you before on iron sharpens iron radio may be

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Unfamiliar with you, but why don't you let our listeners know about striving for eternity ministries? Sure striving fraternity is is really a teaching ministry.

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And so we have differently we have courses online on systematic theology Harmonetics, which is the science of interpretation interpreting the

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Bible Introduction to discipleship world religions. I have a book. What do they believe which is on?

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Systematic theology of the Western religions the majority, you know Islam Judaism Catholicism Mormonism Jehovah Witnesses just came out with a new book this week

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What do we believe? which is a systematic theology for Christians keeping with the same way that I did the other one keeping it where it's

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Concise and and something that for new believers. They can easily read it new people.

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They're new to theology But it's also something for believers I try to put lots of references in there so that it's a quick reference guide as well

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So what are the what tell us about the major? Emphasis of what do we believe or is it is it what we believe or what?

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It's what do we believe what do we so what do they believe and then what do we believe? And so basically what

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I'm gonna do is I'm gonna look at you know, the Christian Authority The second chapter is one of probably most important ones because I deal with biblical reliability so what

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I'm trying to do is take a topic that is usually reserved for seminaries textual criticism and Break that down to a lay level

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Because most people the biggest thing that most people have to deal with especially like when they're evangelizing is the question

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Well, the Bible was written by men. Well, the Bible's been edited and a lot of Christians have no idea how to handle that Yeah, their pastor got that in seminary, but they don't continue studying that they don't teach that so what

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I want to do is break that down to a lay level so that anybody can Understand the issues and understand how to defend that the the

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Bible's is very reliable. In fact, I Actually do some calculations to say that if you look at it, the

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Bible is about 99 .8 % reliable I'll put those numbers up to CNN any day of the week

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Now why wouldn't you say a hundred percent well because we do have textual variances So we do have some where we can't get back to the original meaning and we can't get back to the original wording

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So the meaning would have changed even I mean There's the one that Bart Ehrman would refer to in his book, you know

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If you're gonna write in New York Times bestseller, you've got to put your best argument forward And so his best argument that we can't get back to the original

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Bible is that? Jesus in some manuscripts was called the son of a carpenter and in others.

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He was a carpenter I know that that just blew your listeners mind because there's so many doctrines based on that, right?

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In fact, I heard and I don't know if it's Accurate or not. I heard in a documentary recently from a

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Christian archaeologist That the term the Greek term actually is a stonemason, but I don't know if that's accurate or not

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Yeah, I have not heard that. Okay have not heard that but you know Chris one of the things I always love about being on with your show is you have

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Unique ability when you interview people to just there's the gems you pull out of people that always

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Amazes me how you because the way you go through a conversation I mean, so I'm kind of curious how you do this because you you've managed to pull out things from people in your interviews

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Well, I used to pull gems out of people as a pickpocket before I was a Christian. Oh We have that in common

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Only kidding But and the question was I'm sorry, what was that?

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No but but how is it that when you interview people right you seem to be able to deal with Differences of theological positions that people have and be able to pull out of them clarity in your questions

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To get people to really get to the heart of issues that need to be discussed Well, all's

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I can tell you is that I have a philosophy of interviewing that is nearly

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Dimetrically opposed or 180 degrees opposite from many hosts

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Who want to hog the microphone themselves? Bill O 'Reilly would be an example.

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And of course Some people would say to me how could you criticize somebody that until the recent unfortunate scandal?

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I mean he was one of the most popular talk show hosts on in the media anywhere, but I think it's a different realm when you're interviewing somebody about theology and about matters that involve one's eternal destiny if I have

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Someone that I would consider to be a an expert or a specialist or somebody well -versed

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Who has some kind of an authority on a certain subject or a variety of subjects?

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I am NOT going to waste my listeners time by constantly butting in and giving my two cents

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Perhaps I even do that now too often but If I have guests on for a reason

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So that they can share Their knowledge and wisdom and experience with my listeners not so I can constantly

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Stop them in the middle of the sentence But yet when you do, I mean you do have what you have a wealth of knowledge and wealth of experience

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And I've always noticed you you do bring yourself into conversations and you do it in a way that always brings out of your the person you're interviewing different aspects of either their background or Something about what they're teaching.

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It's just an amazing ability that you have I've just maybe just it may be just the the length of time

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I've been doing this well since 2005 perhaps I'd have to listen to myself back then to see if I was horrible, but perhaps after a while I've just been able to get more a

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More of a grasp on the art of interviewing Because it's it's really in my opinion.

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It should be letting the guest Speak about what they know

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And to try to draw that out of them as much as possible without stopping them in their tracks too often

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Yeah, but you know the thing that's that's neat is The way when

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I listen to you interview and you'll just guide a conversation I know from from talking with you on previous interviews

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We had we there were certain things you'd want to discuss and it's like we'd go one way and you just you just very

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Casually bring back to Sun if we didn't finish up a topic It's like let's just bring that and you do it so gracefully and so smoothly

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I don't know if your listeners realize you do that so well, you know, I appreciate that very much

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And in fact if you started in 2005, so you started podcasting when you were or radio do it when you were 10, right

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Well, I appreciate that because somebody that I interviewed during my

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Stay here at the conference Was I don't think it was an on -air discussion.

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Perhaps it was all fair. Oh, it's actually a mutual friend of ours I might as well say his name because it's not derogatory against him

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It's kind of amusing but our mutual friend Frank Mullis. Oh you Was telling me about some unfortunate circumstances that you actually made me aware of that he had to withdraw from fellowship with somebody who had been rebuking me publicly or slandering me and mocking me

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Without warrants and he said Doesn't and he was he wasn't making a joke.

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He was dead serious. He said Don't you know that Chris is your elder brother?

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I mean, he's a man of Many years above you and he's you know, he's our senior brother in Christ.

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I'm thinking to myself Frank just thinks he's very young Yeah, actually he was saying, you know, if you're gonna if you're gonna, you know call out someone like Chris Arnett That's it.

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Like, how do you how do you do that? I mean, here's a guy that doesn't fight with anyone at least That's a believer

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Brad pick lots of fights over your years with with unbelievers in different debates that you've you've been able to moderate and stuff

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But obviously obviously I never wanted them to be fights. Yeah But but unbelievers don't always want to get along with believers do they right and unfortunately

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Believers fall into that trap far too often of fighting and yelling and you know making fools out of themselves in fact, that's usually the first sign that a so -called

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Apologist or debater knows he's lost Is when he starts to raise his voice and use mockery and ad hominem to try to draw

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Attention away from the actual content of this, you know the of the theme of the thesis and to to kind of Cast doubt in the audience's mind that his opponent knows what he's talking about just by mocking

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Yeah, I you know, I saw a debate where there was there was gonna be two things discussed

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So they have the opening they have cross -examination the closed and they were gonna start the next one Next topic and it was very interesting because Without even listening to the arguments made

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I said I concluded the who lost And I concluded it because the guy who I said lost spent the entire opening of the next topic

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Still arguing the previous topic in other words He wasn't convinced that he actually answered the question well enough and wasted his whole opening still trying to argue the previous point

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And I went yeah, he realized he lost that first part and now that he never made his opening He just lost the second, you know, but but an interesting thing that I didn't know

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Till recent was if you debate a Muslim You will see that reaction and within Islam It's a very interesting thing when you debate

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Muslims is they believe that if you don't have that that yelling the raising of the voice

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You don't really believe what you're saying. Hmm. They at least in the Middle Eastern Muslims, they believe that if you have to be emotional you have to be yelling and they could say

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Nonsense stuff, but that that that emotionalism ends up convincing the audience that that person's right

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And of course many of our fundamentalist brethren in Christ have that same Philosophy and and it's that's another thing.

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That's interesting what I wanted to ask you about earlier when you Mentioned the fact that the

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Bible at least our English translation of it is 98 percent Reliable and you also describe yourself at least in the past you have as a fundamentalist those two things

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Definitely don't mix together. Well, I'd be a I'd be you know, let's use bad words.

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I'm a fundamentalist Baptist dispensationalist Oh, no but a

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Believer in the doctrines of sovereign grace, that's true. So I really don't fit into any group. Well, I I don't

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I I've never fit in perfectly to any Theological group because I just I I'm a man of the word

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I study the scriptures and I and I'm gonna go where I think the scriptures teach which Fit with some theologies in different areas, but I just don't so people, you know, are you this are you that?

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Well, if you really want to know what I hold to I'm a report Ian And so that's what

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I believe, you know in the pill wait, what's that run now I can define it And for those of you listening that that went over your head remember his name is

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Andrew Rappaport, yes and Another thing that's interesting about you.

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Is that although you are a Jewish believer You appear from what

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I know of you to be a Christian Jew rather than a Jewish Christian.

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In other words, the emphasis is on the Christian You're a Christian who happens to be from an ethnically

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Jewish background exactly Yeah, I get I got saved the same way every Roman Catholic that gets saved every Muslim that gets saved.

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There's nothing special I will have a privilege. Hopefully this either may this may

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There was a rabbi 18 19 years ago who tried to convert me back to Judaism and he gave me

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Cassettes, I don't know if any of your millennial audience understands what that is That you would put into a player and it would it would kind of act like a

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CD does if for people that even don't Remember CDs. It's like a USB drive. It plays audio.

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I was shocked that a girl that worked in a store that sold music

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Or at least in some kind of a department store when I asked her where the CDs were She didn't know what I was talking about.

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It's well, there's a teaser now. Yeah CDs are going out Yeah, well the cassette you remember the cassette you'd stick a pencil in to wind it up But but I listened to about eight hours of his name's rabbi

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Tovia singer Oh, yeah, and so, you know of him so I don't know him, but I know you don't love him yeah, and so I will be debating him hopefully in New York really and so I had said on a

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Podcast that I would love to debate him because he really doesn't know Christianity now to the other

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Jewish people in his audience that don't know anything about Christian He seems like an expert, but he you know, the cassettes

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I had least got he was mixing up Mormonism and Catholicism but not describing

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Christianity you mean when he was describing when he was attempting to describe Christianity meaning you and I yeah, he was using the descriptions that would be more appropriate for either

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Mormonism and Romanism. Yeah, so I like realized he really doesn't understand it So we're probably gonna be debating the topic of his

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Jesus the Messiah, which is like, okay. Yeah, let's share the gospel but you know he did a he that came about because some some atheists professing atheists were commenting on a

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YouTube video that someone had and used rabbi singers Videos to say look even the rabbis say that Jesus isn't the

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Messiah But you know what was interesting about the video is he never dealt with any of the prophecies in the

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Old Testament That we would look at and use for the New Testament Every one of the ones he wanted to look at where the second coming now the interesting one that he did deal with Is in Isaiah where it says that when

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Messiah comes? the the knowledge of God will spread like water to the sea and He says that that hasn't happened

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Really? It hasn't happened, I mean it's didn't happen within Judaism But within Christianity the

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Word of God the knowledge of God has spread to every culture If you go to the Museum of the Bible in DC, they actually have this one room.

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That's that's just wild to look at It's just a room full of what's supposed to be volumes of books all different colors and what those

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Represented all the languages that the Bible has been translated into the reason for the different colors

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They have a color for where the Bible's been translated into both Old and New Testament in that language They have ones where it's just New Testament and then they have colors where the

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Bible is the first written Book first where they've introduced the written language

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Into a culture. Hmm because they wanted people to be able to read the Bible so they created a written language for that culture and Translated the

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Bible into that language. It's the first thing that the first Book or document that they would have in a written form.

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Hmm. I don't know where rabbi Singer falls into this category but I have heard and I don't know if these

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Orthodox Jewish Apologists or rabbis were being completely honest if they were just being politically correct or What their reason was for this approach, but I have heard

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Orthodox Jews in public Say that they believe or have no problem with Jesus being a

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Messiah for the Gentiles. They would never of course say that he's deity or that they would never claim any kind of allowance for the

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Trinity or anything like that, but they Obviously they are trying to Have a different approach to Jesus than some of the

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Talmudic Rabbis who said very harsh and horrible and horrific things about it

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Well, I would I would find that hard a hard position to hold to because there's no passages that I could even think of that would say that the miss there's a two

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Messiahs a Messiah to Gentiles and a Messiah to the Jews So there's there's the

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Messiah That's it and it you know, there's certain things we see of who that Messiah would be

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So I'm not quite sure how Someone would be able to say that there's a Messiah to Gentiles now unless they're saying it's a it's a

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Messiah For Gentile people to come to a form of God, but then they can't use the

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Bible for that because the Jewish Messiah described in the Old Testament is not going to be one to Gentiles separate from the one to the

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Jews, right? And they wouldn't view the New Testament as being a God -breathed document.

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Anyway, yeah, yeah would not be part of their canon Now I'm not sure if this is an area of your study, but I have had some

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Interaction with Roman Catholics lately who were one in one in particular who is saying as the old saying goes by Roman Catholics that Luther removed the

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Apocrypha or the Deuterocanonical books from the Canon and even as Jerome who compiled the

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Latin Vulgate Knew the Jews have never embraced

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In recorded history the Apocrypha or Deuterocanonical books as a part of their

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Hebrew Canon and he said that that was not true Do you know the earliest that we know of?

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record of a list of books of the Old Testament was when the rabbis met in 70 AD in Jamnia and the

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Council of Jamnia has Really where the where the rabbi said what is part of their canon and those books are not included.

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So this is before long before The Catholic Church added them in the 1500s.

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I mean the Catholic Church did not include them until Luther So my question is a council of Trent.

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Yeah, my didn't officially officially dogmatic question is if they say that they're the ones that gave us the

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Bible in the 300s Well, why did they leave them out?

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Why did it was a oh, oh, yeah, we forgot those for 1 ,200 years Oops So I don't even need to go.

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I mean the Jewish rabbis don't hold to those books, but neither did the Catholic Church Right.

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So was the Catholic Church wrong when they didn't include them or Are they right now which is because it can't both be right.

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Well, why don't you before you go give us a Summary of your experience this year at g3 anything that you care to say about well

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I came this year to g3 for a very different reason I didn't come, you know, I didn't come here to support striving for eternity

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I wasn't here to to enjoy the conference because I actually only made it to a couple of sessions

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I came down because I have a friend Justin Peters Oh, yeah, and for folks who don't know Justin Peters ministries go

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Justin Peter ministries org He does a great job dealing with the word of faith movement but for folks who don't know who he is, he has cerebral palsy and So when he travels it is difficult for him to get around You know, he can't tie his own shoes, you know

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It's just so he needs help and I know he's he is I tell I he hates when

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I say this But you know, Justin. Mm -hmm Justin is the humblest man.

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I have ever met He'll never he always thinks everyone's it's if you do something for it's like, oh,

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I don't want to burden you I don't want to burden you it is a pleasure To be able to help him out

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And so I came down here just for the fact of I knew he's speaking and so I flew down Just to you know, just be able to take care of him help him get dressed in the morning help him it you know in the in we brought striving fraternity people came just to you know, we we ran his table for him and So that's why we came down So it was a little bit different experience for me this year because I really wasn't

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I didn't let anyone on social media know I was coming down till I got down here because people would wanted to get together with me once they saw us here and I'm I'm here for one reason if if it happens to work in Justin's schedule.

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Hey, that's great. We'll get together. If not, I'm sorry I don't want to be rude. I'm not you know, but I'm here for Justin So like people would just gonna be talking to someone or getting a photo and someone come talk to me as soon as he needed

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To go I said I don't want to be rude, but you know, I gotta go and so that's why I came down Yeah, it was a little different for me this year

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I was very honored to interview Justin again here on site at g3 and I have interviewed him by phone as well

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But what a what a precious brother? Yeah in Christ. Yeah, and perhaps now you could just Leave a summary for our listeners of a several

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Minute length of what you most want etched in their hearts and minds today Well, if you're gonna say the one thing

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I'll tell you what I'm starting to get known for other than Bible hermeneutics and interpreting You know, it's not a bad thing if you're known for interpret it, you know turning the

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Bible rightly, right? You know, one of the things has been a real burden on my heart is for years I've been trying to display that as Christians we could disagree even on theological matters and do it with love and charity

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I have a friend of mine Matt slick Don't agree with him on a whole lot of doctrines, but you know what?

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We've been going to conferences apologetics conferences and things and people are asking us to come so we could we could disagree

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Because one of things a lot of people are realizing is Matt and I though we disagree and we both think each other's a brother in Christ We realize that there's a lot of people who don't know how to argue about theology

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Especially but people start getting as you said when they start losing or not being able to answer I guess the name -calling the ad hominems and all this stuff

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The reality is I think we as Christians need to learn how to disagree with one another with love and charity

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We're gonna spend eternity together We might as well get used to it now. I mean, I understand that everyone will be a you know dispensational

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You know person in heaven, but you know No, but you know, it's like we could joke like that It's we shouldn't hold to our theology and our positions on the on secondary things so tightly that we're gonna

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Disassociate with people or start calling people out on something that the question that we have to answer

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How did they come to that conclusion? I think that two men that Wonderfully and beautifully

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Demonstrated what you're talking about are John MacArthur and our late R .C. Sproul Their baptism debate was really one that that etched into my mind that this could be done

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And and that's really what Matt and I almost try to model with it because and we kind of have talked about some of those things

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Dispensationalism covenant theology baptism, you know You know, he's he's a continuationist.

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I'm not you know, so we have these differences and they're big differences But you know all those differences

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When we sit at the feet of Christ They're all gonna be straightened out all of us. I think every one of us has problems in our theology

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We just don't know where they are. I mean if we're gonna be honest, we would change it if we did but We have those things and Christ is gonna set us all straight

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And so we I think like I don't want to hold on to my theology so tightly that I'm gonna Disassociate with someone over our differences you know, and I think this is the world is watching

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Christians on social media and I talked to tons of atheists and they all watching

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Christians fight it out. It's an amazing thing. I went to a Matt Matt actually debated two atheists on two separate nights

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Insane two different topics two different guys why you do that because you got to prepare for two they each prepare for one

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But you know what? I got to talk to some of the same atheists two nights in a row There was an issue that was going on with an atheist community and I talked to several atheists asking

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Hey, would you would you say this guy's wrong? Some would say he's wrong. Others wouldn't those that said he's wrong.

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I said, would you call him out publicly? No, no, no Why they wouldn't give reasons that gives the bogus reasons one guy was really honest with me.

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He says Andrew I'll tell you why he said whether I agree with that guy or not he is doing damage to Christianity and you are the enemy and He is destroying you

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I like you as a person, but I want Christianity to end he said I will never publicly say anything about him because he is helping to destroy

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Christianity and I realized I walked away from that and said, you know what? Here's an atheist that understands what

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Christians should know that we should be having a unified front against the world and keeping our in -house discussions in -house

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Not displaying them and and really presenting them on the for the world to see because we know we put it on social media

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But you have whole ministries that just focus on attacking other people. All right one thing before we go that occurred to me if you could

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Comment on this something that has been puzzling to me is that The majority of those that I have encountered in the messianic

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Jewish movement Are And there are some exceptions, so I don't want to brush but for the most part they are vehemently anti -calvinistic and the thing that puzzles me about that is the whole concept of the people of Israel in the

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Old Covenant being Chosen out from the multitudes and elect people is not foreign to the

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Jewish mind. Yeah, and why? Would someone who has become a Christian seem to completely

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Throw that out that that mindset of God choosing whom he will choose.

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Yeah, the The Jews are supposed to know anyway that God did not choose them because they were better than everybody else that there was something innately more lovable about them and So unconditional election should be something that is completely logical and consistent with them but most that I have encountered are

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Non -calvinist and even anti Calvinist Well, I think it comes Sun that we've talked about our previous episode and that is the fact that a majority of those who call themselves

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Messianic Jews are also rabid Charismatics, right?

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Not all not all but you know, what I find is that most of them are Most of those that stay within the

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Messianic Jewish movement now, you do have lots of people who are Jewish of background and ethnicity

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But we don't identify ourselves that way. Yeah, you know, I don't Think of myself as Jewish. I mean

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I am but I'm Christian I'm a Christian first who just happens to come from a Jewish background

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And so the the point being is I think you see the differences with people like that Where people that get into the

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Messianic Jewish movement get into all the feeling based things so everything is based on not theology, but feeling and so you're gonna have them leaning more toward the well what

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I Experienced I experienced choosing Christ and they don't want to think about the theological

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Christ chose me Well, I want to make sure that our listeners know how they can get in touch with you and striving for eternity ministries

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Well, I first off I'll say that I was glad that I had a goal of being on here and trying to get to interview you

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A little bit to bring some of you out because I I did notice that it is something that you do amazing

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I don't know that your listeners even always pick up on it But you do a great job with interviews one of the best

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And so you if people can get a hold of striving for eternity at striving for eternity dot o -r -g Striving for eternity dot o -r -g.

32:14

Thank you so much Andrew Rappaport I look forward to not only fellowshipping with you again, but interviewing you again in the future.

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Well, thanks for having me I hope you enjoyed that interview from the 2018 g3 conference at this time.

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We need to take a moment to hear from our sponsors Chris Sorensen host of iron sharpens iron radio here.

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I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind

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Bible Ravi Zacharias wrote the forward Dan also has a master's degree in theology

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Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states

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He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer he wrote the test for the

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Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -487 -8 1 -800 -669 -487 -8 or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com

34:04

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com When iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the

34:17

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors it gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or Switching to the

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NASB. I'm pastor Nate pickowitz of harvest Bible Church in Gilmont and ironworks,

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New Hampshire And the NASB is my Bible of choice I'm pastor

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Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and the NASB is my

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Bible of choice I'm pastor Suley Prince of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario Canada and the

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Of the church and friendship in Hockley, Texas and the NASB is my Bible of choice

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Here's a great way for your church to help keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air Pastors are your pew

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Chris Arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio go to NASBible .com

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That's NASBible .com to place your order You Welcome back today we are airing two interviews with Andrew Rappaport that Andrew and Chris did together at the g3 conferences in 2018 and 2019 in this next interview

36:08

Andrew interviews Chris to find out a little bit about the history of Chris's experience in radio and how iron sharpens iron got started

36:18

Chris Arnzen here once again manning the exhibitors booth for iron sharpens iron radio at the g3 conference g3 2019 this is the final day of the conference and I have with me an old friend

36:31

Andrew Rappaport of Striving for eternity ministries and something unique is going to happen now something that you don't normally hear on iron sharpens iron radio

36:41

But the tables have been turned as it were and I am going to be interviewed by Andrew Rappaport And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio

36:53

Andrew Rappaport. Well, thank you very much. We tried this last year g3 without letting you know

36:58

Yeah, I think that was what was happening. I tried but you're the the interviewer that you are you turn the tables on me over and over and over no matter how much

37:08

I Actually re -listened to it to try to figure out how did he do this? Ha So and and we'll air this as well on my podcast the rap report

37:18

But it it's something we've I've wanted to do for a long time because you are probably One of the best interviewers out there.

37:25

Hmm. And it's an honor to hear that. I don't know anyone that does it better hmm, and so I've been wanting to get you on to interview you about your ministry what how

37:36

God has You know used your ministry or literally around the world And how you do what you do?

37:44

So so first off for folks even maybe some of your listeners may not know how long you've been doing this

37:49

How long have you been in radio? Well working in radio not to Include well, let me let me take that back working in radio before I was an actual talk host

38:03

Talk radio host. I have been involved in the radio industry since the mid 1980s

38:10

Started off selling Commercial time as an account an account executive with a small ad agency on Long Island, New York Selling airtime for a golden oldie station

38:23

WGL I in West Babylon Long Island, which doesn't exist anymore the mighty 1290 it was called and also a

38:34

Very small black gospel station on Long Island, which I don't think exists anymore either WTHE that was there for quite a long time

38:41

Do we see a trend here? Well, the trend is they went out of business after I stopped selling airtime

38:52

Note note to first love radio they should make sure they never let you go and WRIV and Riverhead so this ad agency basically

39:02

Predominantly had their team selling commercial time on a number of small

39:10

Long Island local radio stations and then I had heard that WMCA radio which was known at that time as a talk a secular talk radio station in New Jersey it originated in New York City, but at the time it was in Rutherford, New Jersey And they had to make the big announcement that they had been purchased by Salem Media, which is the largest now is the largest

39:38

Christian radio network in the world And so I in fact found out through a postcard

39:45

I got from 10th Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania as James Montgomery Boyce And his staff over there had begun sending out postcards alerting the

39:57

New York Metropolitan area and tri -state area that he was going to be broadcasting on WMCA I got excited about that.

40:06

I was a fairly new Christian Still working in secular radio with the exception of the little black gospel station

40:13

That we were placing time for and so I called up WMCA and I said

40:18

I'd like to meet with you folks I've got some history in selling airtime They met with me

40:25

And the first time they met with me they said we definitely Want to stay in touch with you, but right now we

40:32

Want everybody on the sales team to live locally to our New Jersey station, and I was not prepared to move at that time

40:40

Then in about I don't know six months to a year Joe Davis called me back was the general manager to the

40:46

MCA and this would have been in 1991 said you know Chris we've Rethought this with your history in selling airtime, and I really like you personally

40:56

I like the way you communicate you get a great voice and so on and so on We would like you to be the

41:02

Long Island station representative for WMCA you could remain there on Long Island and just come in once a week for sales meetings so that's what

41:11

I did I I Very soon after that call became a member of the

41:17

WMCA radio sales team, and I worked there for 15 years and During that time

41:22

I caught the radio bug to host And I don't do you remember Andy Anderson of?

41:29

Talk New York on WMCA no really and you live in New Jersey. I live in Jersey I I used to listen to family radio, and I actually thought that was the bomb

41:39

But I didn't know any better coming from a Jewish background having no introduction to Christianity Family radio at one point for a considerable number of years was the bomb they had the best

41:53

Preachers and teachers in the United States and in other parts of the world I thought

41:58

Harold's camping was good It we speak so authoritatively yes

42:04

And some people are immediately so the mid -80s that make so you started when you were what five years old

42:10

And so it would have been 1991 that I started with WMCA and Andy Anderson was the talk show host was interviewing

42:25

Predominantly people that I had no interest in hearing and I would you know basically be frustrated listening to The guests that he had so I started

42:37

Strongly urging Andy why don't you get this author on and why don't you get this person and Andy you know would say to me?

42:44

Well, I don't know anything about that subject. I don't know this person. I'd say well. I could write questions for you.

42:50

Oh Really well that sounds good, so he fell in love with this Andy Anderson Because it meant obviously less labor for him he didn't have to really prepare and he was asking me more and more to to do this for him and So I was getting a lot of guests on if you ever heard somebody was theologically reformed on any

43:11

Anderson live Which is eventually what they called the program before that was talk, New York, but uh

43:18

Andy began because he began to trust my discernment and my ability to ask questions because of the questions

43:23

I wrote for him He started to say to the management, you know, I'm going on vacation Why don't you look

43:28

Chris Arnson fill in for me or I'm not feeling well. I'm not gonna come in tomorrow why don't you call Chris Arnson and They were beginning to do that and in fact

43:38

I can remember and the first time I ever hosted as a fill -in host for Andy Anderson I Opened up the very first words out of my mouth after the theme music died down I said the

43:50

Calvinists have taken over the building Andy Anderson is tied and gagged under the studio council.

43:57

You will not hear a single word from him today We have control the Calvinists are here in the building and we have control and my guests who are all reformed pastors

44:07

We're dying. They never expected in a million years that I would do that So and I was actually shocked that they invited me back

44:15

Station but so I I wound up hosting quite often and Fell in love with that Doing that and then when

44:25

Andy sadly died of Bladder cancer, I believe for the first two weeks after his death.

44:32

I was the fill -in host My friend the general manager Joe Davis put his hand on my shoulder and he said, you know

44:40

You really do a good job at this But we could never have a Five -point Calvinist regularly do the talk show here and I'm sorry, but you can't be the permanent replacement

44:52

I just can't see somebody with your strong convictions on a certain area of theology being able to To host such a much more broad

45:02

Type talk show with a lot more diverse guests and so on I and I disagreed with him at first because I said hey,

45:08

I've been on for two weeks and Calvinism has hardly come up But he had his point. I Began to realize the wisdom in that decision

45:19

Because I know that if they were to call upon me To promote a conference or event of some kind or a show that they have just added where I had vehement disagreement with the person or people or church or the ministry or organization or parachurch

45:37

I would not have Just because this company or ministry or person had paid money to Advertise, I would not have given him an easy ride as a guest.

45:48

I would have had to have made my disagreements known so when I left there after 15 years and started my own ad agency,

45:58

I Passed by a little tiny Christian radio station in West Babylon, Long Island WNYG and Asked for an appointment with the general manager

46:11

Phyllis Rose and she came out to greet me in the lobby and Standing in the lot because I wanted to get information on This station to add to my portfolio as an ad agent.

46:26

So when I would meet with clients I would give WNYG just an one option to a client.

46:32

This is one station that you could advertise with so during that brief conversation

46:37

In the lobby with Phyllis Rose, she said wow, you have a really great radio voice. Did you ever host a talk show?

46:45

And I said well, I used to fill in for Andy Anderson on WMCA. She goes. Well, we have the 2 p .m. Slot open You want it?

46:51

I'm not exaggerating within five minutes. You said that so I said well, let me pray about that and give me maybe give me two weeks and I really already knew that I wanted it, but I just prayed for two weeks and Got advice and all this kind of thing.

47:08

I finally said Phyllis said I'm gonna take you up on your offer and The first day that I was hosting the show during a commercial break

47:16

She burst through the door of the studio and she says what are you doing? I said Hosting a talk show just yeah, but you're not doing anything that I thought you'd be doing.

47:27

You're not Giving weather reports or playing music. I said you want a DJ. Is that what you want?

47:33

I'm not a DJ I'm a I thought you wanted to talk show host. That's what I'm doing because yeah, but it's all you're doing is talking

47:40

Yeah, that's what a talk show host does. She's I don't know if this is gonna work out. She was very upset and And I actually was bold enough to say and in fact,

47:50

I hate the music most of the music that you play on this stage That went over well, so she left there very upset and for like a week

48:01

She never gave me a friendly greeting that I can remember she was very upset about this

48:06

But things radically changed because this little tiny station as small as it was live -streamed

48:14

When I was sitting there, I can still remember Conducting a talk show. It was it was a live call -in show at that time iron chirping's on radio and Wally who was my

48:28

Producer and call screener on the other side of the glass. He's looking at me like like he just got word that The United States was invaded by a foreign country or something.

48:39

He was his eyes were as big as saucers He holds up a piece of paper. You have a caller from Dublin, Ireland Said really so I said well

48:49

Joe in Dublin, Ireland, and he gave a question to the guest and then I Can't remember if it was the same day, but not long after that.

48:57

He holds up another piece of paper You have a listener in Switzerland, you know and and we were getting calls from all over the

49:06

United States and from other parts of the world and from Sweden and from I Can't even give you all the countries.

49:14

I know that by now we have at least 26 foreign countries where listeners of iron chirping's iron radio reside

49:21

But then they fell in love with the show because they were they couldn't believe it nothing like that had ever happened because obviously

49:29

Before I was there. They were either playing music or pre -recorded programs or very poorly done shows by local charismatic ministers basically

49:42

You know very amateurish sounding and so and I'm not trying to boost myself up and be arrogant

49:49

But it was with the guests that I had on that were the kind of guests that they'd never had

49:56

Teaching and other than a couple of pre -recorded programs by national ministries and so on that they had

50:01

But so they fell in love with the show that we they felt like a real radio station. We are on the map

50:06

We're getting calls from all over the place. So she left me alone After that and was very kind and sweet and nice to me never gave me a hard time about anything after that so How long were you there doing that show?

50:21

I did iron chirping's iron radio on Long Island, New York from WNYG and then

50:27

Also WGBB, which was their sister station from 2005 and until 2011 when very sadly my wife of nearly 20 years passed away so I immediately

50:44

At least temporarily in my mind resigned From the iron chirping's iron radio program and put it on hiatus for an

50:52

Undetermined period of time that undetermined period of time in 2011 turned out to be a four -year hiatus.

50:59

That was just not mentally Or spiritually prepared to be back on the show

51:07

I had very sadly tragically Drifted back into very serious alcohol abuse when

51:16

I when I first was saved in the 80s I had left a life of habitual drunkenness and was sober for 18 years and started drinking again when my wife first began getting ill and began to turn to alcohol to self -medicate

51:36

You know just to get my mind off of things which a lot of people do when they use any kind of a mind -altering substance and So that became a very serious problem to the point of Scandalous Addiction and I was put under a church discipline and you know, a lot of people are scared about that concept

52:03

They have want nothing to do with it if they find out they're under discipline they will abandon the church

52:09

And sometimes this is actually I think a Litmus test whether somebody in the church is truly one of the elect if they are being put under discipline and they say no that's not for me and they just abandon the church and either go to another church where The elders don't know about their sin or don't care

52:29

Some churches are just so starving for numbers and money that they don't care and I know people in that circumstance but my being put under church discipline saved my life and My pastors

52:42

Mark Romaldi and Doug Totter grace Performed at the Church of Long Island in Merrick they

52:51

Very lovingly and at the same time sternly Got me in under church discipline and one of my requirements was to find a

53:02

Christian recover alcohol and drug recovery ministry to place myself under their authority and get

53:10

Through this and I found thanks be to God Hebron colony ministries in Boone, North Carolina very fine

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Christian Rehabilitation or recovery ministry that is the oldest

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Christian Drug and alcohol recovery ministry that is still running in the United States We have to interrupt the interview at this point so that we can hear some messages from our sponsors who make iron sharpens iron possible

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Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read

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This is pastor Bill Sousa Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support iron sharpens iron radio

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Which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

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Lord Jesus Christ and of course the end of which we strive is the glory of God If you live near Franklin, Tennessee in Franklin is just south of Nashville Maybe ten minutes or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby

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We hope you will join us some Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church Our website is

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This is pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

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Iron sharpens iron radio depends upon the financial support of fine Christian organizations to remain on the air

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Like the Historical Bible Society The Historical Bible Society maintains a collection of Christian books manuscripts and Bibles of historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years

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Got to tell you for my money Chris Arnson's radio program is just the best

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It's a great conference. I love it. And Chris Arnson was there last year. He's been there. I think every year

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It's great to see him there You and I actually did some recordings in the lobby at that place which is a highlight tons of stuff going on Yeah, tons of great speakers and no matter where you are in the building.

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PTL Bible rebinding comm Welcome back to iron sharpens iron radio

01:06:22

Andrew Rappaport interviewed Chris Arnzen at the 2019 g3 conference. Let's listen in as the interview continues

01:06:29

Might being put under church discipline saved my life and my pastors

01:06:36

Very lovingly and at the same time sternly Got me in under church discipline and one of my requirements was to find a

01:06:46

Christian alcohol and drug recovery ministry to place myself under their authority and get

01:06:53

Through this and I found thanks be to God Hebron colony ministries in Boone, North Carolina.

01:07:01

That is the oldest Christian Drug and alcohol recovery ministry that is still running in the

01:07:09

United States. It's absolutely free of charge Other than a $300 deposit for pharmaceutical needs that may arise and you are refunded that when you leave

01:07:22

If you don't use it, and so I spent Nearly three months in this ministry in the beautiful mountains of Boone, North Carolina, and the

01:07:32

Lord just completely Delivered me from this addiction and it's

01:07:37

I could still to this day I'm amazed at the grace and mercy and love and power of God and I'm not saying that That God loves

01:07:51

Another brother a sister in Christ and he lest if they don't have the same experience I have but I have absolutely no

01:07:59

Temptation to drink at least at this point in my mind. I know that I always have to remember He who thinks he stands to take heed lest he fall but at the same time

01:08:09

I very frequently will be in the company of brothers in Christ who Enjoy their liberty to moderately consume alcohol and they will ask me brother

01:08:18

Is it okay if I have a beer with our meal today? Oh totally fine And I am not in the slightest but tempted to man

01:08:26

Just never yeah, I'll be at something I'll be at a restaurant like Applebee's and Sometimes still seats will be all full and they'll say do you mind sitting at the bar if my friends want to do that?

01:08:38

while we eat no problem, and I sit there at the bar eating and I never have the slightest bit of temptation so that that surprise oh and after Finding it unbearable after I returned from North Carolina to Long Island I Found it unbearable to live on Long Island because I missed my wife so much my late wife and I saw her face everywhere

01:09:04

I looked Every restaurant. I went to every place. I traveled on Long Island She was there in my mind and it became extremely

01:09:14

Heartbreaking and depressing to remain there. So I had friends that already lived here Christian friends who lived in Carlisle, Pennsylvania and on a fluke

01:09:24

I had a funny experience I Found an apartment out in the eastern

01:09:30

Suffolk County, Long Island in a gorgeous upper middle -class neighborhood was fairly inexpensive it was the apartment in the in the pool house near this elderly woman the swimming pool and I was moving my furniture in there and Had told her a

01:09:54

Certain time that I was going to be moving in on Memorial Day and a deacon of a church

01:10:00

That was going to use his truck To help me move my furniture there. He got delayed for hours

01:10:08

Unexpectedly because his wife and family Wanted to go to a Memorial Day party that he was unaware of So I told this

01:10:15

I kept calling this woman every hour. I'm really sorry. He's not here yet he's been delayed by a

01:10:22

Memorial Day party and I really apologize. Please forgive me and when he finally arrived about five hours after he said he would be there even though it was broad daylight

01:10:31

I Moved my stuff in and the woman was very upset, but she said okay.

01:10:38

Well, we'll just have to live with this this Digression from the plans, but okay.

01:10:44

Well, thank you very much and seven o 'clock in the morning and that very next day Knock at the door.

01:10:50

I opened the door. We're half asleep and she says this isn't gonna work You're gonna have to move out

01:10:58

What you did to me yesterday was so horrifying I had to leave a Memorial Day party in order to wait for you and I said

01:11:06

Ma 'am with all due respect your Memorial Day party was across the streets You Would have known that a big truck was pulling up and and it's still broad daylight and you you know

01:11:19

But I said, okay I realized that I had dodged a bullet to have a landlord like that wouldn't have been a good thing

01:11:24

Yeah, so I just as a fluke I called my friend buzz Taylor who many people may recognize that name because he

01:11:32

For the first couple of years of iron chirping's iron was nearly an everyday co -host and that may

01:11:39

Buzz may return now and again to co -host the show, but he's been very busy In fact, he's writing in his own book on eschatology, but I called my friend buzz as a joke

01:11:51

And I said hey down there buzz just out of curiosity You know any apartments available and Carlisle because I just got thrown out of mine one night and He said yeah, actually,

01:12:02

I can't believe you said that the apartment right across the hall from me and this This home that is formerly a

01:12:10

Presbyterian manse or parsonage a Historic manse in Carlyle, Pennsylvania.

01:12:16

Well, the Apartment across the hall from me is vacant and my landlord said if I get somebody to fill it

01:12:22

They will take a hundred dollars off my next month's rent. So I said, let me go see this place.

01:12:27

So I Took a Amtrak to Carlyle saw the apartment fell in love with it and said

01:12:33

I'm moving in and two weeks later Moved in there and I am still there to this day and that is the physical home of on your chirping's on radio

01:12:41

I relaunched the program in 2015 and because two of my sponsors battery

01:12:49

Depot calm and waiting River Baptist Church they Advertised with me on my old show on Long Island and they said we want you to be back on the air

01:12:58

And so don't wait around for a radio station to pick you up. We're gonna buy you

01:13:04

The studio equipment that you need so you can launch the program and start off internet -based and hopefully, you know, you'll get radio stations to eventually pick you up and So that's the beginning of iron chirping's iron radio to the the

01:13:20

Carlyle, Pennsylvania version of our interpreters You are getting picked up by radio stations now, right? Yeah. Well since then

01:13:28

We have grace life radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida That Has been airing my show.

01:13:36

How long Eric has it been one year two years two years They've been airing my show for two years every day

01:13:41

And there are things that I can't mention right now that I have just discovered at g3 About new opportunities for me on other radio stations, but I will keep quiet about that So you brought up sound

01:13:54

I wanted to get to later because many people think church discipline is Gonna drive people away from church many people think that churches shouldn't point out or what they'll say is police people's sin and One of the things as you've already said, but I want to go into more detail is the fact of how church discipline

01:14:15

Really was used in a great way by God and through the church in your life And I think a lot of people want to avoid that But I think your testimony is one that may feel need to hear because church discipline does serve a purpose yes, and I think as Hard and as harsh as this sounds and as as horrible as it is

01:14:38

It is also a good thing if it drives people away from the church Because those people who are being driven away under the threat or the

01:14:50

Insistence is probably a better word that they were Will be placed under discipline the people who are being driven away,

01:14:57

I think as the good book says that those who left us were never truly one of us and so It I don't think a church is helped in any way

01:15:11

When members even if they've been beloved members for decades. I was a member of the church for quite a long time

01:15:18

When I was placed under discipline, but I became a scandal in fact use the word policing of sins

01:15:24

I don't think that elders should be the busy bodies and police the private lives of the members and like You know on Unannounced visits to their home and to snoop around and all that I don't think that that should be done but my sin was

01:15:42

Was drug the news of my sin was dropped into the lap of my elders because I was going to bars and Became a public publicly known drunkard and Then the thing that made it worse is that it was very well known amongst many not all

01:16:04

But many people in the community that I was also a Christian and a member of a church So and people just thought that was hilarious

01:16:12

But then word got back to My elders through people in the community who knew them or through the church or even members of the police department locally not that I was being arrested or anything like that, but but I was just some of the police officers knew of my public drunkenness and so They they warned me

01:16:33

Chris. You have got you are now under church discipline. We are going to send a letter

01:16:39

To the congregation making them aware of this and they wrote a very correctly worded

01:16:47

Letter That was not over -the -top or probing too deeply into anything personal

01:16:55

But I I didn't take any offense by it, which is interesting because I think that many if not most people would

01:17:03

And I knew it was necessary It's not like I was unaware that I was rebelling against God so and I I followed their instructions and there were and as I said, one of them was defined a

01:17:16

Rehabilitation, so I'm I'm very happy that they left the Liberty to find that ministry up to me

01:17:23

I'm glad that they didn't force me into something that I Felt uncomfortable with the strategy or ideology like for instance one of the initial drug and alcohol rehab

01:17:36

Ministries that they wanted me to place myself in Was run predominantly by charismatics

01:17:44

Some of those folks I know and I love them and they're wonderful people But there's something about the structure of the ministry and the emphasis on the charismatic and my church by the way

01:17:55

It's not in any way the one that was a member. It was not in any way charismatic, but they there's not many

01:18:00

Christian Rehabilitation ministries, especially not locally to Long Island and So and they're typically also

01:18:12

Extremely expensive. Yes. Hebron colony as I mentioned. It was free other than the $300 deposit and I can't stop singing their praises.

01:18:23

One of the interesting things about Hebron colony Is that it does not utilize the 12 -step?

01:18:29

Philosophy You will never hear other than when they have guest speakers

01:18:34

You will never hear the men and by the way, they have a woman's facility called Grace home in Santee, South Carolina That's actually who told me about Hebron colony.

01:18:44

It was a woman. I know is a dear sister in Christ who herself admitted herself years earlier to the women's program in South Carolina, but the

01:18:57

The philosophy there is basically if you go to Hebron colony, it is a men's discipleship ministry

01:19:06

With the focus to if there are lost men in that place and which for the majority would be

01:19:14

They are preached to and evangelized with the hopes of them repenting and turning to Christ and if there are

01:19:22

Christians in a backslidden state there It's for them to repent and to be restored and There is very little discussion of alcohol or drugs

01:19:33

Other than when men might be sitting around having a meal and talking to each other There's a lot of that But there was no they didn't want people as like it occurs at a typical na or a a meeting people standing up and giving their stories their horror stories about life, which which happens at every

01:19:52

Na or a meeting they thought that that was detrimental it very often Very often

01:20:03

Glamorizes those kinds of addictions and so on People kind of want to one -up each other and who had the more horrible story now

01:20:12

As I said that they would have guest speakers on occasion do that, but I'm talking about I think it's harmful

01:20:19

When I say the guest speakers would give their testimonies just like I'm doing right now But to have a constant saturation and a dominance of that is what

01:20:27

I'm talking about. They didn't they so they don't Be to prevent that they don't let anybody do that Yeah, I used to I used to work at a very similar sounding place in America's Keswick.

01:20:37

I used to do something there It's similar. They've with $250 not you don't get it back, but that's all they charge

01:20:43

But you have a different scripture verse you have to memorize every day Oh, we had a we'd a whole and that's what everyone's focused on We had a workbook that had to be complete.

01:20:53

Yep by the end of the two and a half month length of the

01:20:59

Your time there that you would not you would not graduate With a certificate that you've successfully completed the program without filling out completely the workbook

01:21:09

And the thing that was interesting is that there was no one on staff at Hebron That was a five -point

01:21:16

Calvinist other than one sweet lady Ruth Elliot who is still a receptionist there, but none of the pastors on staff

01:21:26

Were five -point Calvinist although or should I say however the ministry itself which began in the

01:21:35

Early 1900s actually the 1940s I guess after World War two or it might have even been during World War two, but a

01:21:44

Presbyterian minister down south in North Carolina was seeing the high rate of GI's returning home that were alcoholics and It became such a burden to him that he

01:22:04

Providentially at the same time that he was witnessing this he was pastoring a

01:22:12

Presbyterian church that was in the southern Presbyterian denomination Which had apostatized become more and more liberal.

01:22:20

This is even back in the early 1900s and he Insisted to the congregation that they had to leave that denomination the congregation did not stand by him.

01:22:31

They wanted to stay so he left and But God used his departure from that church from pastoring a church to start

01:22:38

Hebrew on Colin And so the thing that's interesting is he designed the program that they use and it's

01:22:47

Clearly reformed in its emphasis, although it doesn't use those words like yeah reform Calvinist So I've been reading this workbook and filling it out.

01:22:55

I'm like don't these people realize this and I don't mean to Say anything bad about any of the folks working there, but they just saw that what was

01:23:07

Developed by the founder was very biblical and they kept this the program. Yeah, so it's not and it's not like they were anti Calvinist They just were not

01:23:15

Calvinist. There's more people that are Calvinist and they don't know it I did this with a guy who he's he's an evangelist wrote a book, but he condemns

01:23:24

Calvinism I sat down with him once I think you and I privately I told you a story but Sat down with him and I just I gave the definitions of the five points without using the terminology.

01:23:32

He agreed across the board And I said so you're a five -point Calvinist, oh, I don't believe in any such as misrepresentation of it well, the thing

01:23:41

I'd like to do is I think it's I think that they'd be encouraging especially for pastors because We're talking about church discipline earlier and church discipline is something that pastors want to avoid, right?

01:23:54

I think it's the reason when we look at Matthew 18. He's saying assuredly assuredly I say to you were two or three gather in my name because they need the insurance, right?

01:24:03

and of course, I think that there may be a serious problem if a group of elders or pastors are very eager and excited and enthusiastic about Conducting church discipline.

01:24:18

That's a sick mind of a man who wants to do that. Yeah, of course the abuses are in both ends

01:24:24

I think it's more predominantly The abuse of a church in this regard to not conduct church discipline to avoid it especially if those that need to be under disciplined are somehow

01:24:38

Contributing much to the congregation whether financially or in some other capacity I have seen that happen with people that have gotten away with all kinds of wicked behavior because of the status they may have for some reason or other it might even just be because of the longevity of the

01:24:56

Membership and they think as if they're doing these folks a favor and they're not yeah, and that's what

01:25:03

I wanted to get into because I have Been on the receiving end having to counsel many pastors who call me up when they're going through a church discipline situation

01:25:11

How's the right way to handle this? How do we can bring reconciliation with the church? they're all trying to almost avoid it if they can at all possible and Yet a big part of the thing that I say to them and I think you bring up when you give your

01:25:25

Account what happened with you is the fact that the best thing you could do for a sinning brother is to bring them under discipline

01:25:32

I think it does no good to the sinning brother or sister to let them continue in their sin and So if you'll think if you bring their sin up or you put them on a church discipline, you're gonna chase them away

01:25:45

But I think you brought out for the genuine believer That should bring them back under repentance.

01:25:52

So for a pastor who may be going through this there or Knowing that they're going to have to go through this

01:25:58

What encouragement can you give to a pastor who's having to discipline someone out of their church or start that process

01:26:06

Where they have that fear that they might chase the person away or things like that To encourage them that what they're doing is actually the best thing they could do for that individual spiritually

01:26:17

First thing I'd like to say is if there is a pastor or pastors plural Who want that kind of counsel and advice they can email me and I would put them in touch with their peers with pastors that I know that have conducted church discipline who could give both the praise reports and the

01:26:38

Very sad reports about their conducting church discipline depending upon how those that were being disciplined reacted to it

01:26:46

Because I obviously don't necessarily feel myself To be in a position where I I'm comfortable giving pastors advice about too many things.

01:26:55

But having said that I think as I've already said that they should not

01:27:02

Be more fearful of offending or losing a member than they are over that person losing their own soul

01:27:10

They should recognize that What they are doing is a ministry of love

01:27:16

And they should behave that way because there are horror stories about churches

01:27:22

That have abused their authority. I think it's I think this is in a minority today. I Don't think that that is the predominant problem in evangelicalism

01:27:32

But I think that there are in fact, sadly these horror stories very often come out of Theological circle circles that I am in you know reformed

01:27:43

Churches Reformed Baptist churches and so on that May have been overly harsh

01:27:50

About things sometimes that are debatable whether they're truly sinful or They may be sins, but the the level of severity

01:28:01

Did not require the the hard actions by the elders

01:28:07

But but having said that if you believe that a person is committing a sin that needs to Certainly be

01:28:20

Drawn to the attention of all the elders at first Obviously, I don't think every sin a member of a church commits needs to be brought to the attention of the entire congregation

01:28:31

Especially if the sin is not a publicly known thing Like for instance,

01:28:37

I think that a pastor or an elder or a deacon I think

01:28:44

They are clearly revealed in the scriptures as being people who need to be above reproach and they have a higher

01:28:51

Calling to purity not that they not that regular congregation members are having some kind of license to sin

01:28:59

I don't mean that But The the pastor or the elder or the deacon and I believe by the way pastors and elders the same office

01:29:07

I do too but They are they have to go the extra mile to give the public appearance of purity but if a person is not an office holder in a church

01:29:20

I Think that more leniency about public rebuke

01:29:27

Should be in place I don't think that every time elders find out about a sin that a member commits that they have to immediately rush to the

01:29:34

To tell the whole congregation. I Think that that time is only reached

01:29:40

Of course depends on the severity of the sin and so on and and how public it is.

01:29:45

Exactly, but it also If the person doesn't

01:29:52

Demonstrate any interest in repenting. That's when it's another So, I think that pastors should be

01:29:59

Letting whoever in their congregation that they want to place under discipline letting that person know immediately

01:30:07

We want you to know that we're doing this because we love you and demonstrate that even in the tone of voice and body language and all that and the constant reminder of This is what

01:30:21

God has ordained to bring you back into a place of restoration place of peace with God and peace with the church and Sometimes it may involve a sin.

01:30:35

This is sin is such a grievous sin that you have been involved in That if you remain involved in this sin we are to tragically regard you as an unbeliever even

01:30:50

If in the mind of God if he who is omniscient knows that you are regenerate

01:30:56

That is aside the point if you're not acting like you regenerate we as fallible People who don't know all things don't know the heart

01:31:03

We have to treat you as an unbeliever and if you don't repent and drunkenness, that's my sin

01:31:11

Not that not that that was my only sin I said every day still but Drunkenness is among those sins where we are warned you have no eternal life if you continue in these things

01:31:25

But some of you once were these things. I mean drunkenness is listed in a

01:31:31

Among the the most heinous sins that human beings can commit including murder.

01:31:37

So It's something that should be taken very seriously. And by the way a word of rebuke in love to all of my reform brethren

01:31:49

Who flaunt their liberty to imbibe an alcohol? I believe that a

01:31:54

Christian does have a liberty to moderately drink as long as they stop long before the point of drunkenness

01:32:05

I don't want anybody to mistake me and thinking that I am pushing total abstinence on others.

01:32:12

I Believe that I must be totally abstinent from alcohol because of the temptation that I know it would bring to me to possibly

01:32:22

Go back full bore and to surrender to the sin of drunkenness but also

01:32:30

Since others know many others know of my history of abuse. I don't want to give anybody a reason to think that I am

01:32:39

You know back on the bottle Like everybody it's kind of funny. Maybe not.

01:32:45

I don't know but there are occasions even recently Where I've been walking down the street into a store or something and the sidewalk will be icy It'll be like moving around.

01:32:56

Oh great. Now people who've seen Chris Orenson think he's drunk again But Pastors should know

01:33:06

Obviously and they know this if they are biblically literate that they Must be first and foremost

01:33:16

In fear of God They should be in fear of disobeying

01:33:23

God than they are of displeasing men They cannot be more consumed with people liking them and being happy with them and even giving them money

01:33:36

Than they are over what God views To be the right thing to do and God is the one that Ordained in his

01:33:44

God -breathed words that we are to discipline those among us Who are involved in sin in an unrepentant fashion?

01:33:53

I was very I'm thankful to God that he instilled within me through his

01:34:00

Holy Spirit a determination to Obey the instructions and requirements of my elders to prove my

01:34:11

Repentance to be true and you know to go to an alcohol rehab ministry and do all those things

01:34:17

So I think a person who is following the instructions of the elders

01:34:24

To be treated in a different way They should I think that a person like that Should be treated as a brother

01:34:32

It's only when the person storms out of the office the study or even

01:34:37

You know just blatantly says well, who are you you're who do you to talk? You're a sinner, too

01:34:44

I'm how dare you bring this up in my life or what about that guy? What about that? You know pointing to other people who are involved in some kind of sin

01:34:53

Those are the people that you have to say. Well, I'm sorry We cannot regard you as a brother

01:35:00

Even if you are and we are unaware of this if you know Even if you are just a backslidden regenerate person, we cannot treat you that way.

01:35:08

And by the way, that's where you're good, too. And So I think pastors have to Be reminded that no also, this is not going to avoid discipline is not going to do

01:35:21

Not only the the discipline II any favors if you don't discipline him The congregation at large is not going to be blessed by allowing it to tolerating unrepentant sin of that level of Severity that Discipline would be required

01:35:41

Now somebody might be thinking why are you saying that there was only certain sins? that Should require discipline.

01:35:50

Well, let's face it. We all sin and I don't I don't agree at all with the logic or the teaching of many

01:36:00

Christians today that I've encountered and had conversations with who will say sin is sin is sin is sin and I've known when

01:36:09

Pastors have been caught in adultery When people have voiced their opinion that that man even if he's restored to the fellowship of the church

01:36:19

We can use his gifts in many different ways, but he cannot be a leader in the church anymore

01:36:25

He will no longer be above reproach. How dare you say that? You're a sinner too and and a sin is a sin is a sin and It's not some people in a perhaps an overreaction to Roman Catholicism's venial and mortal sins and all that There is a clear distinction in the

01:36:43

Bible about the severity of sins There for instance obviously in the

01:36:50

Old Testament not every sin required a death penalty and You know, we're not going to treat the adulterer in the same way as the brother who loses his temper now

01:37:02

Obviously even a brother who loses his temper habitually And keeps doing it that person even needs to be put under discipline, but there is obviously

01:37:11

Different approaches that you've got to take You know, you're gonna put a brother under church discipline if at a church picnic he becomes a glutton that day

01:37:20

Now obviously if this is a habitual thing where it's getting out of control, it's ruining the person's life but So I can't think of much else that I who is not a person

01:37:33

In a church office can say that I can think of right now I think you brought up some things me

01:37:38

Paul encouraged and said that you know to Timothy if Pastor sins you you warn publicly that's a speaking of a pastor

01:37:46

But it is true that as you brought out the whole congregation realizes we take sin serious here.

01:37:51

It's the purity of the church The other thing I think it was good. You brought up is this is about love and I know it's struggling fraternity

01:37:59

We have a quick reference card called a process of reconciliation One of the things that we do in it is it's a flow chart

01:38:06

Why because so many times when people are talking about sin? Oh that person sinned against me. They're all emotional and Really you need to take a step back and think through things

01:38:15

We have we have a whole thing of I see isn't even a sin Some people as you brought up they make issues that aren't really sin into sin because they wanted to judge and you have

01:38:23

Maybe I'm the one in sin not the other person You know I've seen that happen where they get to the second step of church discipline and suddenly realize no actually you were the offender not the offendee and so we have a chart to like walk through all these steps before you even get to going to the person one -on -one and So so that's something we have we carry in our store because it's it's so important for people to I actually jokingly say it's my rules for Facebook You know because Facebook can learn

01:38:52

They need to learn Christians. I feel we need to learn how to reconcile biblically We have to take a moment to hear some messages from our sponsors who make iron sharpens iron possible when iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the

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01:40:53

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind

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Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself Recently, he wrote a book titled consider the evidence for the

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01:42:21

That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Welcome back to iron sharpens iron radio

01:42:30

We are listening to an interview that Andrew Rappaport did with Chris Arnzen at the 2019 g3 conference

01:42:37

Let me ask you in this in the last segment would be this is you do interviews. I know on my my rap report podcast

01:42:44

It's more. I'm just giving biblical interpretations applications where there's my two -minute daily

01:42:49

It's just quick stuff or and you're best because you're smarter than me See, I know that I'm only smart enough to ask good questions not answer

01:42:57

Well, I don't know you're doing you're doing very good here. But but there

01:43:02

I see for me the asking of questions the way you do To me it's easier to sit down with the text of scripture or to deal with an issue in Public that we have either in the news or whatever and add biblical principles to how we should view these things

01:43:18

But when interviewing people one of the things I notice is you have an ability to Bring out from people things that I don't hear

01:43:26

I can hear the same person interviewed on other broadcasts But there's a way you have of bringing things out from people that I don't hear in others make it more personal

01:43:35

Make it where they they share things Sort of differently not just here's what I say on every broadcast

01:43:42

Do you think through your questions in such a way to bring that out of people? Is that something that just comes naturally to you?

01:43:49

Whether or not it originally came naturally I don't know it because I some reason can't really remember but it eventually has become just through habit and repetition more of a natural thing for me to consider my discussions just like I am with you as as very little different from sitting around a coffee table in the living room and having a conversation rather than be consumed with the fact that it is a broadcast now, of course

01:44:19

There are different differences in that you might Not want to bring out personal things

01:44:26

That should not be broadcast to an audience outside that room That would separate a coffee table conversation from a radio broadcast because that would actually be wrong.

01:44:37

I mean, especially if you might During a face -to -face time of fellowship have to bring people's names up for some reason or another that would be obviously they'd be guilty of sin, but broadcasting other people's problems on the on the radio, but that is my

01:44:54

My goal and it's not even necessarily a conscious goal Because I'm not like thinking in my head

01:45:00

I'm going to act like I'm sitting at the coffee table with this person It's just something that I do when I'm when

01:45:06

I'm interviewing them and it is interesting for me to see That Though those men and sometimes women who are terrified to be interviewed

01:45:18

When I finally pushed them long enough and hard enough To give it a shot

01:45:25

There are nine out of ten times, I mean it might even be ten out of ten times that I'm aware of They always say wow, this is great.

01:45:33

I I can I come back? You know because this is this was a lot easier than I thought.

01:45:39

I'm not you put me at ease. I wasn't intimidated I had that experience myself the first time

01:45:44

I was on with you and And Even though I have gotten complaints that my laughter actually

01:45:52

Physically hurts the eardrums of some of my listeners and Eric my webmaster knows that that's true

01:45:58

It's not as bad when you listen to it at double and triple speed just so you know That's how

01:46:05

I listen to it But I think by the fact that I enjoy humor and I Spontaneously find things funny.

01:46:15

I hope not too often when they shouldn't be found But I think that also I have been told actually that my laughter has put people at ease sometimes

01:46:28

When others have conducted interviews They have been overly

01:46:33

Polished with a desperate attempt to sound professional and I think that could put people out of ease

01:46:42

Make people feel uncomfortable because it's almost like they feel like they're in a job interview or something or you know or interrogation

01:46:52

But I Am trying to be as real and as natural and just be myself as I can in fact,

01:47:00

I just Was speaking to somebody but today About an opportunity

01:47:07

I may have Well opportunity I do have I should say For a different program other than Iron Trip and Zion Radio that not that Iron Trip and Zion Radio would go off the air

01:47:17

That's absolutely not the intention at all. It's not going to happen. Let's God has other plans. I don't know about But this other program

01:47:25

It's designed More to be about encouraging brothers and sisters in Christ.

01:47:31

Not necessarily a polemics Type program which very often not all the time

01:47:36

But Iron Trip and Zion Radio very often does involve polemics and polemics is very important as necessary, but for this particular program, it's going to be more about encouragement and one thing that I have to recognize is

01:47:52

And I hope this never happens to me, but sometimes I hear what let me take that back frequently

01:47:58

I hear Christian radio programs that are intended to be those kinds of encouraging programs.

01:48:04

They sound completely artificial Everybody sounds like mr. Or mrs.

01:48:09

Rogers if you know what I'm saying Oh, yes, and it annoys me. I think

01:48:15

I feel like I'm getting diabetes Listening to them because of the sweetness and the fake the fakeness and in fact,

01:48:23

I've heard unbelievers When they visit churches One of the things they have said is man.

01:48:30

I just can't get over that saccharine phony sweet Attitude that many people have that greet you in the church

01:48:37

I think you just described how I'm now from evermore going to be describing Joel Osteen You're getting diabetes just listening to Yeah, one of the things that is clear to me that that he cannot be a true teacher of God is that you cannot

01:48:55

Have a permanent smile affixed to your face if you're teaching the whole Council of God Yeah, it would just is totally inappropriate

01:49:03

Yeah, I mean There are many areas of the scriptures where a preacher should have a very stern

01:49:11

Look on his face a look that clearly sends the signal of a rebuke and An urgency and so on not that it should always be that way

01:49:21

There I think that there should be many occasions also where the pastor is beaming with smiles But when you only adopt one of those two extremes

01:49:30

That's a bad case for I think improper homiletics. Yes Well, I appreciate being being on your show interviewing you

01:49:42

But and you know, we're gonna air this on my podcast rap report So for my listeners for rap report listeners

01:49:48

My encouragement is if you are not listening to iron sharpening iron You just got a little bit of a taste of the man behind the radio behind the microphone

01:49:58

Which we don't often get to see and by the way, it's iron Sharpens sharpened iron not iron sharpening.

01:50:04

Sorry That was my stern rebuke for the day

01:50:12

So so listen to iron sharpens iron radio Either live or on podcast because it's available both

01:50:19

I'm sharpens iron radio calm There you go And so I appreciate being able to come on finally and interviewing you without you turn you although you did there was a point earlier

01:50:30

Were you you're starting to turn it out? Really? Yeah, you started asking me questions about do I know Andy and I was like wait

01:50:35

He's asking Unconscious of that because I actually kept thinking man,

01:50:41

I think I'm Mike hogging By the way, I just not to interrupt you but did

01:50:46

I complete an answer to a question just then when I was concluding Okay. Yeah Obviously people might tell in my tone of voice that I'm coming down with a cold again

01:50:56

You do that every g3 as you get a cold I think it's the combination of travel weather talking a lot the lack of sleep lack of sleep

01:51:04

But I just want to say as a listener. I really appreciate what you do the interviews you provide the

01:51:13

Informative questions you end up asking because it brings a lot out and is helpful to listeners like me on a wide variety of topics

01:51:21

That I often don't think about thinking of but because you bring that out with your guests I start thinking about things and so it's

01:51:28

I think it's that iron sharpens iron Radio is something that is really essential for many

01:51:34

Christians most Christians if not all to be listening to I'm glad that you're on Traditional radio that you're maybe even that that hopefully could expand even larger

01:51:44

Because I think that as you and I both would be in this the same camp, right?

01:51:49

We need to get people thinking biblically About things of God and that's something that you really help bring out from people

01:51:57

So I appreciate all the work that you've done on the radio and the encouragement you've been to me and to many others and I appreciate you because Iron Sherpa design radio is really guest driven obviously if people listen to the show long enough they recognize that I Don't hog the mic then if I do it's unintentional but I really want to give my guests a platform when they are being interviewed if I have a

01:52:26

If I have a an expert on an issue as a guest on my program

01:52:32

Why would I want to interrupt him constantly? If he is indeed the expert and and knows a lot more than I do about an issue, that'd be foolish it's one of the things that used to drive me up a wall with Bill O 'Reilly and People might think well who you to insult

01:52:47

Bill O 'Reilly yet before his Scandal he was like the most listened to talk show host in the

01:52:54

United States. Well that And I'm not taking away anything from his talents or abilities or gifts or success

01:53:01

But I just can say that personally when listening to him I used to be upset when he would have an important guest on and constantly interrupt the person and Act as if he knew more about the subject than the expert.

01:53:15

I'm sorry. Mr. O 'Reilly if you're listening, but He probably doesn't listen. I mean doesn't everyone listen

01:53:23

I'm sure Bill O 'Reilly doesn't even know I exist for people who may be listening first for a first time that Profess to be

01:53:29

Christian you may not have to listen regularly to iron sharpens iron radio to be saved, but why take the chance?

01:53:39

That's a great I think I'm gonna put that on the banner I Stole it from Erwin Lutzer, but it still works for me.

01:53:45

He actually said about his brook You know he said that about his church He'd always say you don't have to come to be you may not have to come to be saved

01:53:52

Why take the chance Hoping Erwin was saying that in a jovial. Oh, yes, because I know that he's a

01:53:59

Calvinist. Yeah, I actually got him to endorse James R. White's book the

01:54:04

Potter's freedom, but she loved he was very upset with Norman Geisler's Horrible attack of Calvinism, and he couldn't

01:54:11

Erwin Lutzer in fact. I've never interviewed Erwin Lutzer I've got to get him on the show, but I have

01:54:18

I have always been impressed with Erwin But he was so excited to get his

01:54:26

Endorsement on it, and he was like the last one and he kept Emailing me did it did

01:54:32

I make the cut before the print you know before it's yep. You got in there, so Yeah for him.

01:54:38

Maybe we'll hold the printer for a sec Well I appreciate being able to be on your radio show my ratio to or my podcast to be able to interview you

01:54:46

I appreciate that and so I encourage folks to go out listen You can search for it on podcast at you could look just for iron sharpens iron or iron sharpens iron radio

01:54:57

Because if you just type in iron sharpens iron copy you're getting a golf website Well, there's iron sharpens.

01:55:02

Yeah, but radio for podcasting. That's how I sharpen. That's how I had found it on podcasts So if they do that But it's always a pleasure being with you get to talk with you every year when we're down here

01:55:13

And you are such a blessing to the to me personally But also to the body of Christ and you one of the things that before we go that I so appreciate about you

01:55:24

Is that one of the similarities that we have is it seems that our circle of friends?

01:55:30

extend far beyond the Specific precise theological

01:55:39

Expression or confession that we might have Personally or in our congregations,

01:55:44

I'm not saying that we are loosely ecumenical with heretics or apostates but I mean it seems that the the arms of friendship are broader than than many people might have and I See that in you even though you have very

01:56:00

Serious and strict convictions about many things that you it doesn't create a judgmental spirit in you

01:56:07

Unnecessarily judgmental people beat up the word judgmental to this they do it, but I appreciate that So yeah, and for those of our listeners who are listening to this interview an iron sharpens iron radio now

01:56:20

Let's get the striving for eternity ministries information. Sure striving fraternities org is our website

01:56:29

We just started up a Christian podcast community, which is basically we have a crazy idea

01:56:35

I know I know you'll agree with this idea But it's a crazy idea getting Christians to promote others and serve others rather than self

01:56:42

Crazy and Christianity. We kind of think it's biblical But yeah, so I have a podcast the rap report

01:56:50

Which can be found on any anywhere if you listen to podcasts they can search for the rap report daily

01:56:55

Which is that two -minute Monday through Friday one for people like shorter stuff and we have a if they go to Christian podcasts

01:57:02

Community org they could get the whole the whole bunch that we have and After g3 we're gonna be opening up applications to other podcasters

01:57:12

So we're really glad to see what God's doing in podcasting Here's a crazy thing for statistics wise.

01:57:19

There's over six hundred thousand podcasts right now 200 ,000 of them started last year

01:57:27

Wow. So you think about how long podcasting has been out? Now you consider the fact that When you look at the categories religion and spirituality is the number one category twice the size of the next leading category and When you look in that Christianity is the largest section, but if you look in religion and spirituality, who do you think is number one?

01:57:49

Religion and spirituality the number one Christian podcast. Yeah. Oh Is it something that would make me smile or frown?

01:57:57

I'll actually smile and we mentioned him A dividing line, you know smile and we mentioned him.

01:58:05

Oh The walls Joel Steen Joyce Meyer is usually number two Wow, you have to go down like five or six before you get to grace to you

01:58:13

Ligonier or someone like that so so there's like so much growth in podcasting and yet within the

01:58:21

Christianity so much garbage and I have a guess that the garbage is so successful Because you have multitudes of unregenerate people having their consciences salved

01:58:33

About their sin when they hear people like Joel Osteen and others it's it's like they may have a prick of conscience that something that they're doing or the way that they're living is

01:58:42

Not correct. And then when they listen to Joel Osteen, wow, I feel better now. Yeah, and I don't even have to repent or anything

01:58:49

Yeah, so we're looking to I mean, yes, you know striving attorneys and discipleship ministry, right? so we do we have our

01:58:55

Academy online and we have for people take free courses and we have our You know, we come into churches and do seminars and not preaching and things like that But this is another way of discipling.

01:59:05

We're discipling podcasters to produce better podcasts That's one of the things about why I'm always trying to learn from you on how to interview so I could help people when they're doing interviews

01:59:15

But it's it really is a privilege to be always to be with you. You're such a blessing Thank you,

01:59:21

I'm so sorry that I took so long to actually sit down with you and That was nothing intentional

01:59:28

And that's just has to do with Unforeseen things or I realized I wasn't gonna

01:59:34

I wasn't gonna be able to be sly with getting an interview and without you knowing it That's that I learned God bless you brothers.

01:59:40

It's always great to share a fellowship with you. Same to you. God bless. Bye I hope that you've enjoyed this unique opportunity to hear an interview with Chris Arnzen and as Chris would say

01:59:51

I hope that you remember for the rest of your lives That Jesus Christ is a far far greater