Have You Not Read - S1:E7

Welcome to have you not read a podcast seeking to answer questions from the text of Scripture for the honor of Christ in the edification of the Saints. I'm Dylan and with me Michael Andrew. Before we dig into our topic we humbly ask for you to rate review and share the podcast.

Thank you. And today we're gonna start out with a very pertinent question that Apparently the congregation has been wanting answered for some time now and we just haven't got to. Is decaf coffee heresy.

It's decaf coffee heresy well, I would say that if coffee were its own standard and Coffee was its own thing. Okay, then then decaf Doesn't make any sense like why why did the Why did the? Original brewers of coffee the creators of coffee.

Want to drink the coffee? Because it was a stimulant so decaf. I mean I have a I have a mug from Babylon B that says Decaf condemned as heresy. So I think that may have spawned the question because I flashed that mug a lot of different places and I've often made coffee here.

At church, but I refuse to make decaf even at night, you know, it's like double strength the whole way. I don't you know, I don't want to make decaf then. But my own personal opinion is that when it comes to decaf?

I consider it Ichabod. The glory has departed. Slap that above the door and walk away. Yeah absolutely. So analogous it would it be in? Would it be in apocryphal territory? Is that where we find decaf coffee or apocryphal?

Yeah.

I don't know. Is it like purgatory?

Yeah, it's kind of like something that shows like one of those magical made-up things that should never have come about but we have it.

Baruch's blend. Oh nice. I would think that decaf I think it's more serious than that. I think the decaf coffee To coffee if we're gonna be one doing one of those SAT comparisons. Okay, I think Decaf coffee to coffee is like open theism to orthodoxy.

Okay. It's like, you know, you still have the notion of God without any of the godness. It's a hollow shell. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, I would think that I would think that people like Clark Pinnock would drink decaf coffee.

And feel like he's and if he doesn't he's just being inconsistent. Yeah. Well, I'm glad we answered that and we got that out of the way before we go on to our Next question about forgiveness, which is yet again multifaceted and long and thorough.

So I wonder who asked that question. David. Yeah, probably. Yeah. We'll see. We don't know. We don't know. We're not sure. We're not supposed to be anonymous. It's anonymous. We'll leave it at that. All right, the question is how should a Christian view forgiveness biblically.

I grew up being taught to always forgive not really considering whether or not the one who might have sinned against you asked for it. I think these days that might be called cathartic forgiveness, but in the past year or so I've also Heard taught that true forgiveness has to involve two parties the one who has sinned and the one sinned against.

Are either of these ideas of forgiveness or both or something totally different taught in the Bible?

Matthew 6 and the Meaning of Forgiveness

So in trying to make sense of forgiveness There is of course the instructions that we have in Scripture and let you know if we go to Matthew chapter 6 When we consider the model prayer Jesus teaching his disciples how to pray we have this insertion about Forgiving praying to the Lord and praying to God and saying forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors forgive us our Trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us depending on your translation but then when you get past the amen of the model prayer in verse 14 of Matthew chapter 6 You we read this for if you forgive men their trespasses your Heavenly Father will also Forgive you, but if you do not forgive men their trespasses neither will your father forgive your trespasses.

So there's a lot packed in there. But we see if we can just see from the very basic reading of that text how important forgiveness is so none of us Who follow Jesus would want to be unforgiving we wouldn't want to have an attitude that was Holding on to bitterness and refusing to forgive.

The question being asked is When do we have the opportunity to forgive the moment that someone sins against us? We have is that when we have the opportunity and thus the Need to go ahead and forgive because if we follow Jesus we should be forgiving others or The question is Do we only have the opportunity to forgive someone?

After they have come to us and confess that sin and Asked for our forgiveness when they are seeking Reconciliation. So the question so in one sense you could say well, obviously both, you know That would be kind of the broad the broad look.

Or you have this situation where somebody comes and asks for forgiveness they confess their sins they've offended you they've wronged you they recognize this according to the Word of God and so on and they ask you for your forgiveness and often the byline is oh There's nothing.

Well, I've already forgiven you. Right, you know, I forgave you a long time ago. Yeah, and that kind of thing. Now the question is is that biblical and Dillon Andrew, have you all thought about that question at all before we voiced it tonight?

How are we forgiven before God. Like right, you know. Like. Do we. Are we forgiven when we ask or are we forgiven beforehand for the sins that we've committed against him?

Right, so now we're getting in kind of into some of the questions about the order of salvation or the order of salutis. The question is are we saved before we believe right? And these are getting into some of the questions about the sovereignty of God and election and and so on.

I think the natural reading of Scripture is that that we come into the forgiveness of God and we and we are forgiven of God. When we repent of our sins by the grace of God and by the same grace of God believing upon Christ and trusting him as our Savior and That this is when we are forgiven the means of our forgiveness.

The basis of our forgiveness has already been established in Christ and his death upon the cross. But the relationship between a holy immutable eternal God and our sinful back and forth frail selves that that restoration of that relationship occurs in conversion in the new birth in the in the union together with Christ by grace through faith.

So I would say that we receive forgiveness from God When we ask for it by faith. It would I think that's that's how it would appear to to me when we read different passage. Whether whether it's Peter or whether it's Paul or whether it's Jesus and his teachings.

That's what it looks like to me. Yeah, and he's always faithful to forgive. When we ask we're told that as well.

Yes, and think about a particular passage fairly fairly common in scripture memory first John 1 9 if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness when we come to the Lord when we come to our maker and we Hum a leg oh confess say the same word that he says about our sin.

I Wronged you you're holy. I'm not you're righteous. I'm not. I sinned you were right. That's what confession involves. We confess our sins that there we find forgiveness see confession involves necessarily both repentance and belief.

Right, I see the horridness of the sin. Because I'm taking God's point of view on it and I'm taking God's point of view on it because I believe his word so in that There's the forgiveness. There's the hope of cleansing.

When we come to the Lord in a and we come and we can confess we agree with him about it. So I think that's a great question. How are we forgiven Dylan because we we begin with how does God forgive us?

Because the text is saying consider how God has forgiven you. This is how you should forgive others, right? Is there a difference between? Patience or Synonyms like forbearance and forgiveness. Oh Certainly, yes.

There all day long God said he's Held out his arms to a stiff-necked and rebellious People showing long-suffering and patience forbearance to people Not forgiven but continuing in their rebellion not even seeking Reconciliation perhaps even telling themselves they don't need it right, right and when the relationship is breached because of Transgression because the covenant has been broken and those who have done the breaking consider themselves righteous and They have valid excuses or they don't need any kind of restoration.

Then it's really hard self sledding for the prophet. He's trying to tell them. Hey, you need to repent, you know. And and they're saying peace peace When there is no peace. So, I think beginning with that is the question and then the practicalities of course are.

And this was what the question I had because I remember when I was Trying to make sense of what do you do about when people hurt you? Well people sin against you and this is a very serious thing and it can if it's not handled, right?

We read about a root of bitterness. We read about all all kinds of things happening in the life of a believer if we don't handle these things, right? So I When reading the scriptures saw these Expressions if you don't forgive others.

You're not someone who is forgiven, right? I mean this this bitterness evidence is that you don't understand grace because you haven't experienced it and Begin to think about you know forgiveness versus bitterness and so on and I I had that perspective of Forgiving everyone everything that that's the call of the Christian and I saw that there was a contrast between that perspective and God's Perspective where he doesn't forgive everybody everything.

He just doesn't there's all sorts of people that he has not and will not forgive. And that's not because he's an ungracious God he's far more gracious than any of us but the fact of the matter is there are these promises that they're and warnings about a broken relationship covenant breaking sins and transgressions and people of a reprobate mind Justifying themselves and praising themselves and going straight to hell.

Which is terrible. So I was trying to make sense of why is it that God doesn't forgive everyone but he wants me to. Right. I'm trying to make sense of that and I did my best and I even even wrote like an eight part series for the local newspaper when you're on Tennessee about about this perspective of Christian forgiveness and so on and I held that pretty strong until I guess it was by a couple years ago and I made mention of this in a lesson that I was teaching here at the church and someone who had been a pastor and is was rooted in the word came to me and began to talk with me about whether or not that was biblical and My main hang-up was but God said if we don't forgive then He says yes, of course and he said, you know, but if that means if somebody comes to you and says I Did I did you wrong I I before the face of God I did it wrong I Would I don't want to continue in this broken relationship?

Would you please forgive me and at that point if you don't forgive them? That's what Jesus is talking about. Holding on to that bitterness and and refusing to forgive somebody who asks you that's What Jesus is talking about and I said, well, how do you supposed to then you're supposed to treat these people who have?

Spitefully used you and so on and so forth. He says well, that's the category called love. Right, you love your enemy Right so that if somebody lies about me steals from me. Harms my family and so on I.

And and and they don't have anything to do with me. Because they're hiding in the darkness and they don't want the light to expose their deeds. Am I then to say all is forgiven? Well to say that would imply that that person is on good terms with me but the facts of the matter are they're not on good terms with me and They can't be.

Until things are truly reconciled through forgiveness and there is certainly hope of forgiveness in Christ. Because all of the all justice is handled either at the cross of Christ or at the coming of Christ.

So I can leave it there I don't take my own revenge right I can leave that to the Lord. But to say that at all is forgiven when the relationship is totally shattered these These two things put together.

Well, they shouldn't be put together. Right. That's a false equivocation. I didn't know that I was trying to give expression to What the Bible calls love love your enemies. And if they come to you and ask you for forgiveness, well, then forgive them.

That's that's different. And that's where that's where I have been trying to grow in understanding.

What what do you do is someone who asks for forgiveness, but you don't believe they've wronged you. But their conscience is just so pricked that they believe they have done you wrong. And you can even walk them through the scenario of everything that's happened and walk through the biblical case of hey, you didn't do anything wrong in this situation and They just have to have it.

What do you do in those situations.

Well, you know. It's not really hard to forgive someone you're not upset with. You know, obviously they're. Their conscious is an issue of conscience, right, you know. Romans 14 something like that. They their conscience is pricked where yours is not.

Well, then in bearing with one another and accepting one another in Christ. Then you you take them and their their concern. Seriously as to their regard. Even though that's not your conviction. Yeah, and certainly extend forgiveness.

There may be the need for further discussion. Maybe it's a conviction that is keeping them from following Christ. Well, right for instance. Perhaps they use the telephone to call you on Sunday and they believe that they broke the Sabbath.

There might be the need to Disciple there. Okay, but certainly forgive. Yeah, I don't know that ever happened to either one of you. Somebody comes like, you know. Asking for forgiveness for something and you had no idea what's going on.

Yeah, I've had that happen a couple of times to me and I think just by default to kind of Appease them naturally. I just said yeah, you know, I forgive you and then thinking like nothing nothing wrong happened.

I'm so sure. Yeah. Did you feel very gregarious and way?

I kind of felt like I I gave something that they didn't need or like I was. I kind of lied. I almost felt like I was lying that they needed forgiveness, you know by giving it to him, but kind of feels like somebody is.

Returning to you $20. They never took from you. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of hard to figure out how to accept that. I'll take that found. Andrew do you have anything to add? Maybe you can talk to you a little bit about the order of Forgiveness in Matthew 18.

I'll just skip to the very end of What's commonly called the wicked servant that Jesus says? So my Heavenly Father also will do to you. If each of you from his heart does not forgive his brother his trespasses.

So this is the revocation of forgiveness possibly and the order now is this person not forgiven because they chose not to forgive or is it a demonstration of their heart like Jesus Speaks about. Yeah, so when you when you read the story of the wicked servant.

The story intentionally does not make sense. That's his point. That's Jesus's point. A lot of you know, when you read the parables of Jesus, they make sense. All right you know guy goes out and so some seed and the stuff grows and this and that the other happens and it makes sense, but when you read this parable and The man was forgiven the the equivalent of six million days wages and Then he goes and chokes a man over a hundred days wages.

That doesn't make sense. That doesn't compute and everybody in listening to Jesus's story Knows that doesn't compute like that for nobody would who would do that? Who was forgiven six million days wages who's gonna go out and Jesus says, of course, that's the point.

That's the point you if you're bitter and angry. Taking vengeance into your own hands, which is a form of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You're determining what is right and just and for yourself and you're going after these people.

Doing your own vengeance. Then you don't know the forgiveness of God. You don't know the grace of God. This is this is clear evidence that you that you do not have the forgiveness of God and God condemns your your bitterness and your vengeance.

So, I mean, this is a this is a wonderful Very Timely Relevant parable for our day wherein if somebody will simply Sit back and consider What they have been forgiven and how are they going to hold on?

To these these these bitter agendas. Concerning Either the dead or the living Either the personal or the systemic how are they going to go on these war paths of Personal vendettas of making things right when.

When we're faced with the reality of the justice of God and the grace of God. I mean these things put things in proper perspective. You bet I think that people that do such things have an idea of justice that does not extend past the end of this life.

Yeah, where all justice must be meted out now. Right because there's nothing No justice coming for those who escape it. Yes, exactly and there's without a trust in the sovereignty of God and a Hope of the resurrection and that includes the hope of the Day of Judgment where everything is set, right?

Without that hope people want to resurrect the dead themselves and hold Judgment Day themselves and this of course is an attempt to replace the uniqueness of Christ an Antichrist version of.

Judgment thinking it'll satiate their their thirst for bloodlust or bitterness and it and it's just not gonna Fulfill it at all because like you said, that's a that's a something that that justice has to be beyond the grave and You cannot dole that out yourself.

Yes, and.

You can see how pointless it is and how it doesn't work and People aren't satisfied with it. And there's it really is a kind of despairing hopelessness about the whole endeavor.

And when we're looking at the wicked servant, are we reading something that is? more of a euphemism for like the corporate guilt that Israel has before God as His servant and during that time period or is this is this more being taught to individuals since since Jesus is is in Judea Preaching and teaching and a lot of times preaching and teaching against those sins that are that are most prevalent in his day and time period.

I'm I'm seeing it as a. And you know he in God's forbearance he Allowed Israel hundreds of years. Sure. So six million days wages to me. You know like that that seems like the type of debt that Israel has built up that they should have.

They should have been making those wages over those hundreds of years, but since they have the debt now. And they in their own land are not forgiving debts. In fact, they're they're extorting a lot of the people outside Judea and Galilee.

Yeah, you notice that Jesus when he's answering Peter's question how often should I forgive my brother if he offends me? And Peter of course He extends the rabbinical suggestion of three times to seven times and maybe seven times is it you know?

He's kind of catching on to some of the patterns of Christ you've heard it said but I say to you So Peter's trying that out, you know, he's walking on water there a little bit, you know. You know tripping towards what he's wanting to get and then Jesus Jesus says I not not seven times.

The rendering is 77 fold. Hmm. Okay, and that is a direct quote from Genesis 4 where in Lamech says to his wives Ada and Zilla Listen to my voice. I have I Have killed a man, right? I have killed a man for wounding me or you know a young man for insulting me basically is the idea and he says if Cain be avenged sevenfold we remember that God put a mark on Cain as a stemming of the tide of violence.

He says if Cain be avenged sevenfold then Lamech avenged 77 fold so we see the way of the godless pagan One who does not call upon the name of the Lord like the descendants of Seth. Their their approach is what vengeance 77 fold you hit me with a hammer I'll hit you with a truck.

Okay, so that's that whole mentality. So Jesus takes up that language and he Totally spins it on its head. I say to you forgiveness 77 fold. Not waiting, you know not putting a limit on forgiveness and then saying okay now the vengeance can start right.

But forgiveness 77 fold and that's a shocking statement. So then he says now the kingdom of heaven is like, okay. So now he's gonna talk about the kingdom of heaven which again is. The kingdom is the stone which crashes into the the fourth section of the statue in Daniel 2 right so into the Roman Empire comes crashing a stone uncut by human hands that grows and to be a mountain that fills the whole earth.

Here comes the kingdom of heaven the one that cannot be shaken and you want to be a part of this kingdom. You want to be a part of this kingdom Jews? You want to be a part of this kingdom all you and Judea?

Who are harboring a great deal of animosity and anger and bitterness towards a lot of people right the lack of forgiveness was obvious in the desire for the Pharisees and scribes. How do they handle a problem?

Kill him right get the let's get Herod to kill him or let's let's get the Romans to kill him. Let's do something. Let's let's listen snare him. Let's get the people all mad at him so that they'll kill him.

But let's just get rid of this guy. Though that kind of mentality shows up later in the history of Israel. Also, there's a lot of anger against the Romans right this occupying force and Jesus is saying things like well.

If you know if someone comes and says, you know carry my pack one mile carry it, too. Right and Jesus begins talking about how you treat your oppressors not the way that you've been taught. How can I stab him in the back, you know, so Jesus says, you know, this is the kingdom of heaven is like this.

Like you get into the kingdom of heaven by grace you get in the kingdom of heaven by being forgiven and being forgivers kingdom of heaven is totally of grace. You didn't get into God's kingdom because you were born a Jew.

You get into God's kingdom by God's Unmerited favor his mercy and his forgiveness. And so why am I telling you forgive others? 77-fold because that is the way of the kingdom. That's kingdom life. And even if you forgive somebody 77 times straight, you don't even getting close to how much you've been forgiven.

And so that's what he's getting at and then he get to the end of the chapter at that very all-important last verse. Okay. And so Jesus is identifying if you're not forgiving others. If you're not walking in the way of forgiveness toward others, that means that you're not in the kingdom.

You're not in the kingdom because you're not a part of that that entire realm of grace later on in the history of Judea the gospel being preached for decades after Jesus's resurrection and ascension. During the Roman Jewish Civil War.

Especially after the Saints evacuated Jerusalem and fled to Pella. Judea was awash in blood not simply because the Roman legions were advancing Judea was awash in blood because there was a three-way Civil war going on and the Jews were killing each other.

Stealing each other's food supplies starving each other out and when they were bottled up in Jerusalem those three factions Refused to let anybody out of Jerusalem long before the Romans built their own wall to keep everybody in and in and in contrast to the You hurt me I'll kill you mentality on clear display in the last vestiges of the covenant breakers.

We have the kingdom of heaven in which Forgiveness is a key feature. So I think I would say that that's how I would read it in the larger context. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense.

I just it just brought up kind of a a A corporate mindset to me because of how big the analogy was. I'm like, I got you we got six million. We got to be talking about a nation here or. Because I mean that's that's like that's a country's size of wealth, right?

Well, it is and it did to you know. The story is built upon the idea that the the King is like an emperor and he has various Rulers in charge of regions and they're responsible to make sure that the taxes of the region are Given to the king.

The tribute must be paid to the king and if it's not paid to the king and may be squandered by this steward. Then he owes the whole thing. It's like the story in the Dawn Treader and C .s. Lewis Caspian lands and Manages to confront the governor of the Lone Islands.

Gumpus, which is a great is a great name for a functionary and and the tribute of the Lone Islands have not been paid to the realm to the crown of Narnia for quite some time and well today's Judgment Day the king has come and where's the tribute.

And Caspian reminds Gumpus that the law states that if the tribute hasn't been paid it comes out of the governor's personal Money supply and And Gumpus is you know? It's possible can't be done. You know so that and we just read that as a family so it came to mind.

Yeah, I like it. We need we're going through or we're gonna eventually be going through the the series of Narnia series as well and It's gonna be me and Heather first, but we'll we'll take the kids along with it as well.

So pulling out nuggets like that's always nice. But that's actually a good segue into What we should have done to begin with but what are we reading right now? Oh, you have any suggestions recommendations?

Oh?

So I've been talking with my wife recently about how I'm gonna call YouTube something Different I'm gonna call it the library of Alexandria. I have burning. One day it seems like it's rapidly accumulating the world's It's just soaking up world's wisdom on every single topic.

Yeah. So I would say I've been reading on Bushcrafting Mechanic, you know auto mechanics stuff around the house, you know flooring how to do finish carpentry. You name it it's there pick up a book press play.

That's that's what I would also recommend it to. They have policies that are changing to limit the wisdom that's on the platform. But you can still find pieces of knowledge. Yeah, so I'm reading I'm reading According to plan by Graham Goldsworthy.

It's a book that I've read before. It is out of all the books that Graham Goldsworthy is written who was he's a professor. He's a he's still alive, but he would taught at Moore Theological College in Sydney Australia and he's an Anglican and has a lot of Published works on biblical theology and this is one of his primers he's After decades of writing and so on and so forth.

He's really brought together. I think one of his clearest expressions for anybody interested in seeing the harmony of all the scriptures caught up in in the light of Christ so I Really have tried to acquire and read everything by Graham Goldsworthy as an exercise and there you know I found things that I've disagreed with him about but I Greatly have benefited from his his work.

So I'm reading that in preparation for Something we call Timothy school here, which is gonna start up in February because we're gonna be reading through that book together and As a Companion volume to that I've been reading Kingdom through covenant by Gentry and Wellum, which is their shorter volume.

Because that they then what they had written earlier about New Covenant theology and I borrowed this volume from David Casson. So I'm reading through that and I can't fold the little corners of the pages down and I can't underline anything.

So it's been miserable I want to give it back to him in good condition. But I've been reading that and these are not necessarily new themes but they are themes that I come back to again and again and again because they are helpful for me and my teaching and preaching and discipleship and Being a father and so on so.

That's good right now I Am zipping through all of Woodhouse's Jeeves novels. So I've already read on read them on my Kindle. But I'm listening to all of them at 2 .5 on Audible and they're all Included with a subscription to audible right now for everybody out there who is a Woodhouse fan.

Can you actually appreciate the Absurd metaphors at two and a half speed. Absolutely. Okay. Yep. I know you it doesn't seem like you can but It it you get used to it your ear adjust to it. Like I would the analogy that I would have is making the jump from high school to college baseball.

Where you might have one guy that throws 90 miles an hour in high school. On an entire in an entire County and now everybody from the all the surrounding counties throws 90 miles an hour.

And that's that's the team you're on now. So that's kind of how you adjust. My follow-up question is when you listen to Audiobooks at two and a half speed and you're driving. Does this does this have an impact on your the driving?

Yeah, because.

Not that I can tell I haven't I haven't no one's phoned in with any gripes. That's okay. Okay, but I kind of rubbed off the phone number on the back that says how's my driving? So we're just we just change one digit.

Yeah, we really wouldn't know if anybody griped or not, but going through that right now I'm also going through desire deceit and the novel by Rene Girard and I'm looking forward to getting into a book called girdle Escher Bach.

It's a huge volume. It is at the same time period a writer an artist and Obviously the musician Bach. But it's something that was recommended to me online and It's gonna be Interesting how all three of these men were pursuers of truth beauty and goodness and and their respective Disciplines and how they were kind of working not in tandem necessarily together on on things, but it was Supposedly very interesting how their work Complemented each other during the same time period and I think it's something we can only Credit to Providence that we we have it and we have it recorded for us to kind of up to examine and understand.

But yeah, I'm looking forward to getting to that because I got that for Christmas and there's only they don't it's not in print anymore. So my mom my mom found it online and got it for me for Christmas and I was like, yeah.

So, but I would recommend all the Woodhouse stuff on audible it's It's good stuff and they they've got great readers for all of his his stuff but we'll go ahead and move on now to our last question in the main segment and It's on suffering.

Why Suffering Can Feel So Unbearable

How should a Christian respond to personal suffering when that suffering does not appear to make any sense now when reading this? I think there's two ways you might be able to read this. Or at least that's the way I'm seeing it.

Their suffering doesn't make any sense as in it seems pointless maybe or You don't understand why they're suffering or why they're telling you they're suffering or at least that's that's the way I'm reading it.

What what does it sound like to you guys though? I? would say that Suffering is more.

Difficult to bear When you don't understand it. If you for instance it if you went out and Played baseball in college and had a great career But you injured your elbow Okay from just overuse, you know hyperx injury elbow, whatever.

And then you had to go through the process of physical therapy, maybe a surgery and recovery and so on. They're suffering there. But you understand it, okay, so it's understandable. What often makes suffering? so hard to bear is When it is unclear why?

This is going on and This tends to make the burden Exponentially more weighty. You know and again you could think of the kind of suffering where I am going to diet and exercise and go to bed early deny myself some pleasures and get up early in the morning and we're gonna You know ride herd on my my physical desires and Buffet my body to make it useful and etc.

There's gonna be some suffering involved there. But that is something where you understand what's going on. It's the it's the kind that you don't understand that That makes it, you know all the more difficult.

So I think doesn't. I think that's where the questioner is coming from. Okay? Yeah, there may be a different nuance to it. Is there a different take on it?

I when I first read it, I thought they were talking about like somebody you see that's suffering and. And You don't think that they should feel like they're suffering. That's just what that's. That's what I had in my mind.

But I I think it's closer to what you're saying. Yeah, though whenever you read it.

It sounded more like to me that there was some nameless faceless antagonist. That you can't quite put your finger on. You know medical condition would be a good way of putting this, you know a sort of suffering That doesn't necessarily seem purposeful or meaningful.

Why. Well why. Why me?

Those types of things come to my mind. I think you're right. I think you're closer to that. Yeah so.

This is I think this is a question that I've often Thought about and I think the sinful instinct For me in my in my past has been one of risking nothing as much as possible to Do or to do the best to manage any kind of potential problem suffering?

So I don't want to cause suffering to myself or to others and so on and so forth. So that was a very sinful attitude a lack of trust in the sovereignty of God and even even a Not very not resting very well in the justification that is there in Christ and There is no avoiding suffering you there's just there's no avoiding suffering and even if even if you personally never experience The the perils of financial Poverty or physical suffering or broken relationships or you know consent so on and so forth and you know The church you go to is just solid steady on and nothing ever bad happens and so on you're not gonna just not gonna avoid suffering because your your brothers and sisters in Christ are gonna suffer and when part of the body suffers everyone feels it and Your family members are gonna suffer even close family members are gonna suffer and then you're gonna feel that as well and there's going to be suffering and What I would say a majority of the time.