Moses & the Unseen Realm | Brian Godawa

Wise Disciple

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

Well, welcome back and happy new year. Thank you so much for continuing to come back and watch these videos on my little old channel

00:06

Here if you are brand new, my name is Nate Sala I'm the president of a Christian organization called wise disciple and here at wise disciple

00:14

We're all about living effectively as Christians in today's culture and let's face it It's getting more and more difficult to be a

00:21

Christian in today's kind of culture So that's where we come in on this channel you'll find all kinds of videos dedicated to getting you to understand your

00:30

Christian faith and also be able to Communicate it effectively in the 21st century so I think the number one most popular series we have right now is the debate teacher react series, which

00:41

I Highly encourage you to check out but also we have these other things going on Especially today's video where I sit down with my friend

00:48

Brian Godowa who is a Hollywood filmmaker and author Brian Just published another book that's come out based heavily on the influence of Michael Heiser So if any of these things interest you

00:59

I definitely encourage you to check this out Some of you are wondering what the heck's going on behind me.

01:05

Well, I'll explain Okay I'm gonna explain a lot in the community tab over the next couple of weeks about what to expect the videos that are forthcoming

01:13

Definitely come back to the community tab. Finally for those of you that have been paying attention

01:18

I got kovat right at the beginning of January and Look I was I had some time to sit there and reflect what happened.

01:25

How did I get Kovat? Well, this is totally logical. So don't question it. I shaved my mustache off you know what

01:32

I'm saying and So now that I've grown it back. I'm all better. Come on now. That's not a fallacy in any sense

01:38

Well, anyway, thank you so much for watching this particular video I hope that it encourages you and stay tuned because we have a lot going on in 2022

01:52

So Brian, thanks so much for joining me It's been like way way too long and we were just talking about this like almost two years or so But before we jump into anything at all the thought occurred to me this morning

02:01

I don't think I've ever asked you this but you know, you wrote to end all wars starring Kiefer Sutherland We talked about you just wrote my son

02:10

Hunter about Hunter Biden starring Gina Carano You have the awesome short cruel logic starring Tony Hale of Arrested Development And of course now all the books that you've authored

02:19

But the question is how did you break into Hollywood in the first place? I was kind of the old school

02:27

Well, I don't know what the new school is these days to be honest I would assume that a lot of people in the other go to film school and then that's how they make their connections and Stuff and then that's how they get work, etc.

02:36

But anyway, the old school version was You know definitely was you know, you just you out of love you you pursue it out of passionate on the side

02:44

Until you can break in and that's what I did So as a screenwriter, I you know many many years ago when

02:51

I first started out I just I loved movies and I wanted to be a screenwriter But I didn't want to be a starving artist and I'd already had a college degree and was read and had a job and got

03:01

Married with graphic design. So I said I didn't want to be a starving artist and you know So I'll just do my day job live my life and I'll write on the side and give it a couple years you know, and so I did that and I Read every book

03:15

I could in screenwriting went to every seminar I couldn't screenwriting went to pitch seminars and learn, you know bought the books about what do you do to break in?

03:22

And it's basically, you know at that time a lot of it and I think still is is pounding the streets kind of thing

03:27

You know pounding on doors and fuck telephone numbers and emails and all that stuff so I did all that for years for a few years and and Ironically the way that you break in you can break in any one of a number of ways.

03:38

It's usually who you know, so But I did everything I could as an outsider to just break in and Like I said, including writing a you know

03:49

Half a dozen screenplays before my first movie got made because that's you got to keep doing it and keep practicing it so I did that for a few years and my first movie was twinned all wars which ended up being made in about 2001 and But the way

04:01

I how they got made was I actually met of all the I know I'm up in Hollywood I'm trying to break in the typical way and it's so ironic what

04:08

I Was actually living in Orange County went to church there and I met one of the pastors of the church gave a sermon and talked and he quoted

04:18

Nietzsche and Frankie Frank Frankie not Frankie Francis Schaefer Schaefer I would never quote

04:26

Frankie Schaefer. All right But but and I just thought oh, I like this guy, you know

04:32

So I got to know him it turns out he was producing movies on the side and always been wanting to you know

04:37

Make movies and he's kind of doing what I was doing But as a producer and he said I have this Property for many years and of course, it was the the the story that ended up being to end all wars

04:46

You know, he got you know, and and we we connected up and it's so I broke into Hollywood through a connection to the church

04:54

And that's the irony of it all. I never anticipated that would be the case, right? and so my first movie movie was made that way and then

05:01

After that you just you know, you think a lot of people think oh then you're you break in and and you know

05:09

You know all of a sudden you start doing all this work. Well, it didn't happen for me Actually, the director's career exploded but mine didn't and I had to go back to square one right away and I had a lot of depression actually in those and in that year because facing the reality that it doesn't always work for everybody and You know right away and and you know

05:30

I I was to discover later on to that even Successful people will have their ups and downs where they may not know if they're gonna even have work the next year even though there

05:39

Might be successful and famous, you know, right? It's just such an up -and -down world So I said

05:44

I basically had to start off from from square one I couldn't rest on any laurels just because I got a movie made now having made a movie

05:51

It does help you a little bit maybe get some meetings and talk to people but then you know You've got to just keep making stuff because if you don't you're only as important as your last project so to speak

06:01

So yeah, so that's how I broke in What is so you mentioned one more question on this because I love this this could be like it's all own episode but You said about books you were trying to read a bunch of books that you could or whatever

06:13

You got to tell me was Sid Fields book one of those books Sid, yeah, and my day that was the only book available

06:23

Honestly, so we're talking, you know decades ago right one of the only books maybe there might have been one other book

06:29

I'm not kidding you. It was like I can't what was it? I can't remember what it's called. But yeah, I read the

06:34

Sid Field Yeah, and then shortly after that John Truby came out and I listened to his seminars

06:39

And of course now you've got a million books on screenwriting, right? So yeah Yes, it was one of my initial influences

06:47

It's funny because I feel like you and I connect on something that we've probably never talked about before but around oh one

06:53

I'm just finishing school with a minor in film because I want to go to Hollywood get an agent and be a screenwriter myself

06:58

And so I think I think that's partly why we've gotten along so well is because I think we understand each other

07:04

But I I'm really so proud of you because you actually have accomplished quite a bit now

07:10

The latest thing that we're talking about here is your brand new book Okay, and we're gonna get to it in just a minute highly encourage everyone to purchase a copy of the book

07:19

It's Moses against the gods. Wait, did I say that right against the gods of Egypt against the gods of Egypt?

07:25

I'm so sorry It's a great book. I'm gonna be sifting through this book over the

07:30

Christmas holiday But let's let's talk about the spiritual world of Moses for a few minutes

07:36

So in Deuteronomy chapter 32 Moses talks about a time of the sons of God now this phrase is

07:45

Disagreed upon about what it what it's pertaining to or what it's describing. So who were the sons of God Brian?

07:52

Yeah To ease into this the the novel is part of a series

08:00

It's a standalone novel, but it's part of a series called Chronicles of the Watchers which is also integrated into my previous series

08:07

Chronicles of the Nephilim and The premise of this series is I'm retelling

08:14

Biblical stories as Bible epics. I like them as you know, big huge epics and action and romance and all that but I'm I'm I'm Telling the story but also trying to tell a an additional story of what what the spiritual world might look like Behind the veil behind the curtain, you know so to speak right of what's going on at the same time that these biblical stories are going on because You know, we hear you know in the

08:41

Bible, of course mentions, you know, various angels visiting and etc and the angel of Yahweh and such but But there's more to it go that's going on behind the scenes then

08:52

We normally realize and this isn't made up. This isn't just like a spiritual warfare

08:58

Yeah, there's angels and demons of lust demons of lust fighting angels of holiness or whatever, you know, it's no

09:04

There's actually a sort of a high -level spiritual War of principalities and powers that's going on that is connected to what's going on on earth and this isn't made up This is actually

09:15

I got this from the Bible and when I drew it from the Bible when I was studying it many years ago influenced heavily by Michael Heizer and When I did that it opened up my eyes kind of like Elisha's servant you know remember that story where Elisha's servant was all worried because these armies were coming down on Jerusalem and he's like Oh god opened his eyes and he saw he he saw heavenly armies, you know, and that was part of the revelation of When there's a earthly war, there's a heavenly war too.

09:46

And but You know to see that through the eye that that the servant had his eyes open and that's what

09:52

I felt like happened to me Where I started realizing there are a lot more scriptures that refer to this world than than I realized

09:59

Uh, this isn't a secret gnostic Um knowledge it's it's on the more you begin to understand the ancient near eastern

10:08

Context of the bible the more you can see these things. So what you're referring to for example Is deuteronomy 32 which is a one of the psalm 82 is one of the classic references, but deuteronomy 32 which is really relevant to what we're talking about because moses wrote it before they even went in the canaan, right and The 32 8 through 10 says when the most high gave the nations their inheritance when he divided mankind

10:33

He fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of god But the lord's portion is his people jacob his allotted heritage

10:42

And and most scholars will will tell you bible commentators will say that this is a reference to the tower of babel

10:47

In other words the the dividing of mankind um Giving the nations their inheritance.

10:52

And what does that mean? Well, when god separated the tongues at at babel and they spread out on the earth and then genesis 10 talks about the 70

11:01

Gentile nations, right? Those were the 70 gentile nations that were divided at the tower of babel and And that act of separation that god involved and it included something else

11:14

And that something else is the second part of the passage Which says he did, you know, he fixed the borders of the people So in other words, he's saying, you know, these people are going to be here

11:21

There's people are going to be there by separating them by language and um, and the notion here is inheritance, what does that mean meaning inheritance in the ancient, uh,

11:30

Biblical context basically means land. It's in other words. This is my territory. We are inheriting this territory

11:36

And he did it according to the number of the sons of god but Yahweh His portion is his people jacob

11:45

What does that mean? Well, um, i'll i'll show you in a second but but you know, uh Take my word for it

11:51

Now that the sons of god are a is a technical term in the bible that's referred to heavenly beings from god's heavenly host

11:59

And but they're not just good guys. All right I think uh, it's clear that they're actually bad guys and that there was a falling of some kind in other passages we can see that but the reason why he's doing this is because these gentile nations after Rebelling against god, so he sends the flood right he starts all over but then what happens they become idolatrous all over again

12:22

They keep worshiping false god. They build the tower of babel, right? And so god's basically saying like romans 1

12:28

Okay, i'm going to give you over if you you're going to worship these false gods Then i'm going to place you under them under their authority, right?

12:36

and They will be your inheritance. You will be theirs, but I will the god of israel

12:42

I will be you know, israel will be my people so he's basically saying that these these sons of gods rule over these various gentile territories of the nations and that's a

12:51

That's a principle that goes throughout the the old testament, you know, remember daniel, uh, daniel four, right?

12:57

the watchers What is a watcher the watcher is watching over certain nations and then in daniel 9

13:04

I think it is where it says the prince of persia and the prince of greece And bible scholars all pretty much acknowledge that these are spiritual princes over the nations so there's a spiritual principality over greece over persia and over Israel as well and some you know, not only yahweh is over israel

13:23

But you know daniel indicates that michael is the prince over israel. So michael the archangel so there's this notion that these these territorial, um beings are are authority over the over these nations and by the way, that's why

13:37

All the world stays in darkness and israel just struggles on its own, you know, because they're in bondage to these false gods and Um, but yahweh's trying to bring a light that will shine and ultimately yahweh promises.

13:50

Messiah will come Yeah, take the inheritance of all those territories back through jesus the messiah

13:57

And in so doing he allows people to you know, come into the kingdom in a way. They couldn't back in the old testament

14:03

Right, right um Let me let me uh, uh Let you know where i'm coming from with all this because I know that we've talked about this before i'm not sure if i've told you this but uh, you know,

14:15

I I went through school, you know got a theology degree and was taught something different that You know the sons of god were more the righteous line of seth or something uh, and then when we get to genesis chapter 5 and 6 we see that uh,

14:30

You know the the righteous line did some things that they weren't supposed to do or you know, whatever but um

14:37

So i've always understood the sons of god as people but i've never really looked into it. And now you mentioned.

14:42

Dr. Michael heiser Uh, so it sounds like what you're what you're explaining now

14:48

Is influenced by dr. Heiser's work. Is that right? Yeah, heavily. So, um the unseen realm.

14:54

He's the evangelical scholar who believes the bible. This isn't liberalism He's the one that would recommend you read if you want a good evangelical scholarly uh approach of this whole narrative theme that i'm talking about because it's not just like a

15:05

An isolated element. It's like a whole Theological theme and he's what influenced me

15:13

But i've written a book called uh, when giants were upon the earth and that's my biblical, uh addressing of these theological issues and I try to address

15:22

Uh, the the the view that they're the righteous sons of seth Um the sons of god and the idea here is there's there's three major views the supernatural view which is that Well, first of all, we're jumping ahead of ourselves sons of god

15:34

Where does that even originate the first place it originates? is you know genesis 6 1 through 4 when man became

15:41

Right before the flood when man began to multiply in the face of the land and daughters were born to them the sons of god

15:48

Saw that the daughters of man were attractive and they took his wives any they chose

15:53

The lord said my spirit shall not abide with man forever 120 years the nephilim were on the earth in these day in those days and also afterward when the sons of god came into Had sex with the daughters of man and bore children to them

16:06

These were the mighty men who were of old men of her now now you're right There there's three major traditions and there's a lot, you know, we can't go through all of them here.

16:13

I do in my book um, but the the oldest view of the of the church, uh and Jews Is that these sons of god who are they having sex with the daughters of men?

16:25

That there are angels from heaven basically angel is a very generic term. It's not a very good term I think but they're divine beings from god's heavenly throne that come to earth and they violate

16:35

Uh god's separation of heaven and earth and they have sex with these uh women, uh, you know, and then they

16:41

That that that unnatural union of heavenly and earthly being creates those giant nephilim and they're sort of that cursed seed that end up being connected to the promised land when when we'll talk about that later, but but um

16:54

So that's the most ancient view but then around the second first century or so, um other views came in And augustine was very influential julius africanus, but augustine made it really popular.

17:06

He came from a gnostic background He was very he looked at that and said that's sounds too much like my gnosticism like mythology

17:12

So so I think he had a sort of a fear of of believing something that sounded too much like what he came from So he came up with the sethite view

17:22

I mean, he didn't come up with it. Julius africanus was the first one, but the sethite view became sort of the scholarly academic uh answer to the to the supernatural interpretation and then in more recent years,

17:33

I believe, uh, In the reformed camps a lot of them Um, meredith klein is a big influence that would argue the sons of god are references to earthly kings

17:44

Pagan kings who saw themselves as sons of god literally Yeah, and that they and they had polygamous marriages with women.

17:51

That's another that's another view It's just you know, if you want to simplify it, it's like are they human or are they?

17:57

Angelic, are they heavenly angelic? And so yeah without going into all these detail I do in my book too much detail, but um

18:05

You have to do an actual uh biblical study on that phrase sons of god

18:10

It's it's a technical term That like some people say well, uh, israel is referred to as son of god.

18:16

No, actually it never is it's God one passage god says israel is my son, but he doesn't call him the son of god

18:24

And that there's a reason for that because it is a technical term and you look it up everywhere where it shows and you see

18:29

It's talking about some beings of some kind and I would argue, you know Whether it's job or talks about the sons of god, you know with satan, you know

18:37

Roman the earth and you read the sons of god or later in job It says in the beginning of creation job 39

18:43

I think uh the beginning of creation the sons of god were there singing for joy when god created, you know the heavens and stuff so those are heavenly beings and and um, so there's the

18:55

That tradition is rooted in in the biblical concept and then you know new testament when it talks about we become sons of god

19:02

There's a link there It's not saying we become gods or something like that, but we become like those angelic beings we become like when we are resurrected

19:12

Actually when we become christians and the holy spirit comes in us the transformation of who we are our identity

19:18

Is we are sons of god? But it's not yet shown what we will be because we will be like him later, right?

19:24

And so later, you know in death and resurrection our bodies become transformed and ultimately we are We become sons of god like the sons of god around god's heavenly throne in the bible um, and that's why he talks about all this language of glowing and stuff like that and and so So the sons of god thing is a notion that is heavenly oriented and and if you if you look closely at the genesis passage the the um, uh,

19:49

The you know, are they human if you may if you think of it this way if you think of them as human category

19:55

Then you're saying human category Sees human category and you know in the daughters of men right and they're marrying and there's some kind of Bizarre thing that comes out of that that the nepheline comes out of that it's like Well, how is it that if it's just human categories that it's talking about here?

20:12

There's no um There's no dichotomy There's no dichotomy

20:17

But you read the passage you get a sense of dichotomy between the heaven and the earth And why would they call them daughters of man, right?

20:24

I mean Of course the daughters of man, you know, I mean like why right that and if you start if you if you say well

20:30

The seth line of seth are righteous. So they're called sons of god but the daughters of cain

20:37

Are a cursed line and they're daughters of man. They like they don't have god, you know

20:42

You you you fall into this sort of a very dangerous category. I think of categorizing whole categories of people when in fact biblically speaking

20:50

They're all sinners and they've all been they're all sons of adam, right? and so I think that I think that the the category that's being

20:57

Uh dichotomized here is between heaven and earth and so sons of god are in heaven They see the daughters of man on earth and their union creates that that hybrid union let me ask you this, uh, what the the so the sons of god were the

21:13

Angelic beings that were around the throne Uh, and and I guess they were expelled.

21:18

So some of this is going to sound really elementary So i'm trying not to you know, like I really don't know, uh where i'm where i'm at here.

21:25

That's fair And i'm and i'm learning Uh, but they were expelled from the throne of god. So I take it like with uh the devil um, and then they were put to the earth and then they ruled so This is a these are physical beings that resembled, uh humans and and then and then they they but they had uh,

21:46

Uh Like where do they get the ability to I guess rule then is is it in their in their in the essence of who they are?

21:55

um their special status as angelic beings I admit this stuff sounds wild. Look when

22:00

I when I I I always avoided this passage and it was only like I said years ago when

22:06

I fought I just read I was reading heiser And I just had to realize well, this is really there and i've got to deal with it

22:12

And you know if I can believe god can part a sea And raise a man from the dead

22:18

Is it really that crazy to believe that maybe angels who we don't know anything about really?

22:25

Can have sex with humans and create something weird? It's I admit it's weird. But if it's in the bible, it's in the bible but there are other passages that sort of you know, you you draw from and and that helps you come to realize well, what what

22:36

What does this mean? Yeah, what's going on here? And so what I think is is this is another this notion of I think it's rooted in this that there is this fall of angelic fall and that's what it's part of these sons of god

22:50

That's one of the reasons why god did send the flood. He did send it for man's sin But if you read it closely, he talks about violence on the face of the earth

22:57

It's not just human sin human violence, but there's actually violence in general, which includes these other beings

23:03

But the ancient world including the bible has this notion of these territorial

23:09

Authorities like when there's a war on earth, there's a war in heaven You know to our modern sensibility is that sounds weird, right?

23:16

But like I said, there's already hints of that that we see in daniel um, where did they come from and why yeah,

23:22

I think what's I think what's going on here is this is part of the storyline that That deuteronomy points to and there's other passages.

23:30

We just don't have the time to you know, spend going through all of them but right, but uh, you know psalm 82 is another one, you know where it says, uh,

23:37

Let me let me go there You know and all of these have different arguments

23:43

Oh, these are these are men who who are in the place of god not gods themselves But but nonetheless the text itself says psalm 82 god has taken his place in the divine council

23:54

In the midst of the gods he holds judgment How long will you judge just like if you look at psalm 89 you see that this council is in the heavens

24:03

It's not on earth and so some people say oh those are men who are representing as judges they represent god and and um, you know, uh,

24:11

If if you I don't think there's anything in the text that indicates that Um, I don't think there's anything in the bible that indicates that a judge is called a god

24:19

But if you look up the word gods, it means it's elohim. Elohim is the same word that's used of yahweh at times

24:25

But it's also used of a disembodied spirit like samuel when he came up from you know

24:32

With the witch of endor he was called an elohim um So the dead are sometimes called elohim um, god is called elohim and Uh, and and I would argue and there's other places angels are called elohim gods

24:46

So what that means is it's not a polytheism It's and this was the hardest thing as an evangelical to me because I like that sounds like mormonism or polytheism, you know

24:55

Right, but if you study if you study elohim, you know, by the way, I think that there's if you if you guys

25:01

You listeners get a chance go to the bible project .com the bible project .com. They've got these little informative videos

25:08

They're fantastic type in elohim five minute video and they talk about these spiritual beings and what this means and such but a study of the word elohim is it doesn't mean

25:17

In the way that god like we think of it as well if the word god means it's a It's a real god who creates things and such no no god the word elohim

25:27

Is a word for being any being who exists within that spiritual realm, right?

25:34

So that's why angelic beings would be called elohim Or his heavenly council the divine council.

25:40

That's that's heavenly. That's not earthly divine, right? um, and we see passages like in you know, um,

25:48

Second kings 22 with micah and all the spirits around god's throne is his heavenly host earth's divine beings, right?

25:54

and so um, uh, so Uh, as well as as well as this being of samuel in that realm and god

26:01

So that's why you read passages where says Yahweh is the god of gods, right? He is an elohim, but he's the elohim of elohim, which means there's no other elohim like him

26:10

Obviously, there's no other creator god There's all these beings are just divine angelic what we would call in today's world angels

26:19

And so but but they are heavenly so they're not the same as we are and and um, you know

26:26

You get references to this in jude 3 for instance and and second peter as well But jude 3 6 says and he's talking about these these godless.

26:35

Um, False teachers and how and he's comparing them And incidentally says jesus saved a people out of the land of egypt which points to moses

26:44

Um, he said and the angels who did not stay within their own position or authority or their own

26:51

But left their proper dwelling or their proper abode He god has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness.

26:58

This is one of those weird passages, right? Right. This is what i'm saying is this understanding connects

27:03

And makes sense of all these weird passages that I I never made sense before right?

27:08

Well the angels who do not stay within their own position or authority or their dwelling in heaven Well, they came to earth.

27:14

I think that this is what jude is referring to. He's referring to this genesis passage these angels

27:19

They rebelled in some way and they came to earth and they had that sex and then though they were punished at the flood

27:25

They were kept in eternal chains, right? So jude is referring to them and comparing the false teachers to those those evil beings, you know

27:33

Because it was also a tradition of the jewish uh, you know, uh second temple period

27:40

That these these angels that came to earth also That were fallen.

27:46

They also taught man things like war and harlotry and all this stuff, you know, so so they they it's not like it's not like man isn't guilty of his sin, but But the idea there was they they helped man along by teaching him the occult and all these occultic things, right?

28:01

and so that's in the book of enoch, which is also It's not a scriptural book, but it is a highly respected book in judaism as well as early christianity and so a lot of these theologians draw some ideas from that, but I I Draw most all my interpretation from the scriptures themselves and there's plenty of them that talk about this

28:22

So these are divine beings and the premise is I see it like this it's like It's like all mankind is is is evil, right?

28:30

God spreads them out and divides them by nation, you know, because why because if they What did he say if if I let them go there's no end to this, you know

28:39

What they can do of evil that they can do so by splitting man up with languages and nations It keeps the evil

28:46

What's the word at bay? At not unify what's the opposite of unified decentralized he decentralizes evil at at babel, right but the notion here is

28:57

Is it's like if you're going to if you're going to worship these gods i'm going to give you over to them But i'm going to keep one people for myself and we are going to be the they're going to be the light that shines

29:07

And so these territorial Demonic type beings what you know, whatever they are these these sons of god

29:15

They are the watchers over the nations it's just an ancient worldview element that we're not used to And we don't like but I think it is definitely in the biblical text so when moses

29:29

Talks about deuteronomy. In fact, um Later in that same passage of deuteronomy 32 later on he says um, so he's talking about uh,

29:40

Uh, what's going to happen in canaan and how israelites are going to go in canaan They're going to fall and worship false gods.

29:46

And here's what he says. They'll sacrifice they sat it's prophetic proleptic It's in the past tense.

29:51

They said israelites sacrificed I'm, sorry, they stirred yahweh to jealousy with strange gods abominations.

29:59

They provoked him to anger they sacrificed to demons That were no gods

30:04

To gods they had never known to new gods that had come recently whom your fathers had never dreaded so this is where I get the notion that these these um,

30:14

These gods of canaan have a demonic reality to them now. Am I saying that uh, therefore, you know, uh,

30:22

Uh, all the gods of canaan like baal and asherah are literally actual demonic beings

30:30

I don't know exactly But I do know that the text does point to a reality behind the gods of canaan

30:38

What that reality looks like i'm not sure I think it's deception and you know, you only need a couple of Fallen angels to impersonate various deities, right?

30:46

And i'm not even saying that therefore everything that these false religions of canaan and egypt

30:51

Uh talk about really happened or anything like that But what i'm saying is there's a demonic reality behind the gods

30:58

They worship that keep kept gentile nations in bondage until messiah came when the gospel comes

31:05

Men from every tribe in every nation all of a sudden can get saved because they're no longer than under that bondage See and that's actually what psalm 82 points at but this is this is where I get this notion that there's a demonic reality

31:16

So what I did to write my series chronicles of watchers and nephilim and all that was

31:22

I said well, what if this is my this is my sort of Imagination trying to make things come together and have sense.

31:29

I'm not saying this is the scriptures or anything, but So what if the gods of the ancient world like the gods of canaan baal and stuff or the gods of egypt, right?

31:37

like horus and such what if what if There were real demonic entities behind and they were these fallen angels that that that rebelled against god some of them were um some of them were uh

31:51

What's the word imprisoned at the flood for sure But that doesn't mean they're all gone right because they're still satan and his angels, right?

31:57

So so what if what if they were behind that and so that gives some legitimacy to the occultic?

32:04

nature and power of pagan religions and uh, that's the premise of my novel so Novel series so jumping to moses

32:13

Against the gods of egypt, which is my newest novel and I think one of my one of my best because it's really interesting

32:21

God actually says in exodus 12 12

32:27

He says he's going to pass through egypt on all the gods of egypt. I will execute judgments

32:34

I am the lord on all the gods. What does that mean? That's not just an app so we always assume it's just a metaphorical abstract notion

32:42

But what if there is a true demonic reality behind those gods and and so I use that premise in my moses novel

32:49

And I retell moses's story But I I premise it on that that um, these false gods of egypt may have demonic reality behind them.

32:57

So we see these these beings Who take on the names of horus and isis and osiris and such and so when god actually does send the plagues

33:09

It's it's been it's been um One of the theories that some people have have thrown out is that Well, there's a couple theories one is that they're nat they naturally they were occurred they occurred naturally just excessively, right?

33:25

That's been debunked. Um, because a lot of them don't fit with the natural what's going on with nature at the time

33:30

That's the ridley scott, uh movie, right? Yeah. Yeah, exactly But there's another view that sort of said well, yeah see god is each plague there's god there's many gods of egypt and there's a god of locusts and there's a god of you know flies and there's a god of um,

33:47

The nile right like hoppy is the god of the nile and and so god is doing judgment on each of those gods by judging the various realms or whatever that they're

33:57

They're gods of but the pro there's a problem with that and I did a study on this and and it doesn't really work out

34:04

And so for example, there is a god of locusts called senehem senhem.

34:09

I think He's almost like unknown. It's a very most of these gods that people like there's a there's a frog god plague of frogs heck at but it's not a major god so So it it doesn't make sense that he that there would be these plagues that represent minor deities in you know

34:26

In a world where that was ruled by a horus, right? now now Pharaoh was supposed to be horus on earth

34:34

So when he strikes the firstborn, that's that's pretty important, right? Rah was the sun god.

34:40

All right But here's here's the problem that there none of these gods in egypt as I did my study on them none of them are singular representative of anything like there's the god, you know the the god of the nile like, uh, you know hoppy or whatever it's

34:58

He's not just a god of the nile He's the god of fertility having to do with the the agriculture of the time period right?

35:06

So a lot of these gods actually have multiple things that they're a part of so I actually did research and found out like for example, the the the uh,

35:15

The nile itself. Let's see if I can find my research on that. I forgot to open up my research. Woohoo bad boy um, so, uh

35:23

In in my book spiritual world of moses and I look up the interior I see

35:30

There are multiple gods for each of these things. So and I chronicle them like for instance

35:36

The the nile itself I found like 15 different gods related to the nile There's sobek the crocodile god and the crocodile god is not just the god of crocodiles he also represents, you know, the strength and the and the um, uh, the strength of pharaoh actually and and uh, uh, and this is why in in um,

35:57

One of the old testament texts the pharaoh the pharaoh of that time. I think it's hofra.

36:02

I think it's ezekiel I can't remember where but he's he's making a judgment and he he likens pharaoh to Uh a dragon in the in the river.

36:10

Well, he's mocking this sobek You know notion of pharaoh and he's calling him like the dragon that that's like leviathan if these uh sons of god were set up as watchers over nations um and and moses is essentially going up against the gods of uh,

36:29

Egypt but there's still all these other watchers that are maybe over the land of canaan They're over uh the nation the other nations, uh that we read of in in biblical times

36:39

I mean, is this also what's going on with uh as the uh, Israelites leave egypt and they go into the land of canaan

36:47

Now they start conquering jericho and other things like our is israel fighting battle against these watchers as well

36:53

So Well what I how I see it as biblically speaking is no they're israelites are fighting there, you know, they they are fighting the tribes of canaan

37:07

Who were giant tribes tribes of giants and such and they were supposed to eliminate them But at the same time in the heavenly there was a war going on and Again, what that looks like nobody knows because the bible doesn't say much about it

37:19

So so, you know, I have to fictionalize it and and um, what I do is

37:24

I draw from the various pagan mythologies like the the the you know, like baal or the moses novel

37:32

I literally drew from the The sort of the pagan egyptian sources of the god's stories and I integrated those stories into my story um in you know in a way to sort of make sense of them and um, so So when god does the plagues for example

37:51

Here here I found it like for the nile itself. I got like 15 gods related to the now there's a fish goddess

37:56

There's a hippopotamus goddess. There's a god of the life of the nile The nile was considered the blood of osiris the bloodstream of osiris, right?

38:04

There's a god of primeval waters noon. It goes on and on and so so the point here is that What how were the plagues then god judging the gods of egypt?

38:14

Here's how I see it And there's a whole cool theological thing going on actually I think but Every one of those the the frogs the gnats the flies

38:25

There's many gods that are connected and by the way, it wasn't flies. It was really pests So it pests includes flies and includes, uh, the dung beetles and includes all these things yeah, so What what what's happening here is the egyptians had a whole worldview that their their worldview was that their life

38:44

The nile was the source of life. That was the true sort of the ultimate god for them other than pharaoh was horus on earth, but All these gods worked within nature as what we would call nature and they were all functioning together as a sort of a um,

39:01

Symbiotic system, right? So when god's doing these judgments, it's not that he's judging the god of frogs

39:07

He's just doing all these he's doing what's the bible calls decreation And what that means is he's turning the elements of nature in back into chaos, right?

39:19

So a plague of frogs is chaos, right? Because frogs are there but when they become a plague their chaos the gnats the flies the boils all these things are returning nature to chaos which was god saying he was literally

39:34

Sort of saying this whole system and all these guys that you think are controlling they have no power at all

39:40

I'm in control. I'm returning your creation that they're supposed to have power over i'm returning it to chaos

39:47

Why because i'm the creator god and out of that chaos i'm going to bring israel Bring them through the waters and into a new land to create my covenant into order

39:57

So he's going to create order out of chaos, right, but he turns egypt into chaos And so what does that look like in the spiritual?

40:04

I don't know so in my novel I kind of came up with a way that makes theological sense of what that might look like how these

40:11

These various gods were being judged Um, and like I say, it's so it's not like a specific god of frogs or flies

40:17

It's that each of those becomes this sort of. Um, uh, uh, uh destruction of the notion

40:27

That these gods are ruling egypt. They're actually nothing in god's eyes, you know So that's kind of the principle of that Yeah, there's a there's a model here too because now you're getting the the gears going in my head

40:39

There's a model for this too because I mean when you say decreation revelation is understood to be decreation and so you have this um

40:47

Way, I guess of drawing from revelation. I don't know if that's what you did But in revelation you have two realities

40:53

You have the reality on the ground of the destruction that's taking place and which by the way There are lots of plagues in revelation as well

40:58

But then you also have this other reality that's taking place in the heavenly realms And both are happening at the same time.

41:04

So this is what you're saying is basically your Your two focuses are foci on yeah. No, you're absolutely right

41:10

Um revelation is a is a stronger picture of that spiritual reality Uh that isn't as as evident, you know, it's not as depicted in in exodus, for example

41:22

But it's interesting because the book of revelation draws heavily from exodus In fact, it's the the second exodus motif is very strong because they're going to ultimately say that that um,

41:33

You know book of revelation ultimately says that the earthly israel who rejected jesus as messiah has become egypt

41:42

Yeah, and the true israelites are now the jewish believers in christ messiah They will leave

41:48

The physical earthly jerusalem and god will destroy it like he destroyed egypt

41:54

That's the motif that's going on throughout revelation and like you said Yeah, and but revelation shows us a lot more of the spiritual kind of You know imagery that's going on but revelation draws heavily on exodus.

42:07

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely Boy, so then if this was a reality in the old testament

42:13

So again the whole conversation that what that we're having and as we premiere this if you're just watching

42:19

The video we're talking about the brand new book by brian godowa. It's called moses against the gods of egypt and uh strongly encourage you to take a look at it read it and then go to Godowa .com

42:30

because there's tons of other books in this series, but um, uh Where are the sons of god?

42:37

Now so like if they're angelic beings and they had this influence. Yeah I understand that they don't have the same influences as they did back then are they still walking around now?

42:47

Are they like, you know, they're walking among us kind of a thing or what's going on there? Well, that's a very good question and in my book psalm 82

42:57

You know, I I got a book for everything dude, okay, but seriously You know when giants were upon the earth is is an extended, uh explanation of everything that's going on in my novels but psalm 82 is a short booklet

43:13

I wrote that Lays out the basic principle that we've been talking about here and shows all the biblical all the biblical um

43:21

Arguments for this notion of what we're talking about called the watcher paradigm or the divine council, right?

43:28

and in that book, I do I do argue now the Those who believe in this understanding of the divine council in text or watchers and such there there is a

43:41

Significant segment of what I call nephilim nuts and they you know They extrapolate this stuff out into the present and i'm not in that i'm not in a group

43:50

I'm more in the in the theological understanding of this concept More than the science fiction of you know, they just what's gonna really be, you know,

43:59

I don't know That's what I keep saying is I don't know what it really looks like So my novels are and my novels are theological novels

44:05

They're an attempt to you know draw on fiction that will be consistent with the bible But make sense of the theology what it actually looks like i'm not sure but here's one way of making sense of it and so, um, uh, so these in that camp of the

44:22

You know nephilim nuts or the divine council camp. There are many who believe that there's these

44:29

There are still these territorial Powers over the nations, right? They they talk about them and they they refer to things in the past Like well, the bible says, you know, new testament says satan is the god of this world

44:40

So, you know, he's still the god of this world, etc right, here's the problem is That the new testament was written before the temple fell in a .d

44:50

70 So what the things that paul was writing related to principalities and powers, which

44:55

I do believe is a reference to this This divine council meaning he's not just saying oh, we're wrestling.

45:02

We wrestle against angels and demons, you know it's like no, no, he's saying principalities and powers meaning over their belief was over the

45:10

Earthly authorities there were heavenly authorities. So when he says we wrestle against principalities powers

45:15

He's talking about the powers that sought to stop messiah and it's not just earthly powers, but they're connected to spiritual powers

45:22

So he's talking about all that motif, but here's the thing until the temple was destroyed uh, the the the new the um, the gospel kingdom

45:31

Uh was not yet earthly established It was in the heavenlies with christ's ascension into heaven and the kingdom was begun

45:40

But there's a earthly there's a heavenly and an earthly Component to god's establishment of his kingdom and while he established his his his new covenant with the death and resurrection of christ

45:52

The old covenant was still around Why because the temple was still there the temple was the essence of the old covenant

46:00

So that's why you see even paul and some of the apostles going to temple And yet he's writing at the same time that that we are the temple and there is no need for the temple

46:10

You know, so it's like what's going on here? Well, right that that new testament era or book of acts is a transition period between covenants the new the old covenant has been uh, you know, uh overturned by the new covenant in christ at the death resurrection ascension, however

46:26

The old covenant had yet to be historically and publicly destroyed in the temple so That's you've got this 40 year time period where it's sort of like it's a transition period.

46:38

It's messy is what i'm saying So that's what paul's talking about Yeah a generation. That's what paul's talking about You know, there's still principalities and powers because it is not completed yet.

46:47

It's in process but the the the bottom line of it is and and I go back to um, psalm 82 on this

46:56

And that is you know psalm 82 talks about god being in the midst of the gods in heaven, right?

47:02

um, and and then it talks about he says, you know, you're supposed to You you show partiality to the wicked he goes you're judging unjustly

47:10

In other words god has established these gods to be over these nations and he's saying you have been unjust you are demonic

47:17

All right, and he go and then he says, you know, uh, I said you are god's sons of the most high yet Nevertheless like men you shall die.

47:24

So god's going to judge these princes By killing them like men right and remember jesus jesus appealed to this passage when they said i'm god and they go you're not god and what he said

47:35

Your own text says you are gods. These are this phrase. You are gods is not a reference to human judges

47:40

It's a reference to divine beings. Jesus was claiming divinity when he quoted this passage. He wasn't claiming to be a human judge

47:47

That's that's to me the biggest argument against the human judge or human ruler if jesus was

47:54

Appealing to psalm 82 have I not have you has has christian not said you are gods.

47:59

Well, if he's just saying if he's saying that's That that they're just human judges and jesus is not claiming divinity

48:06

He's only claiming to be like a human judge see and that doesn't jive with scripture. Anyway Wow, and psalm 82 the idea there is that okay i've given you this rule, but you you're evil

48:16

You've you've ruled unjustly these, you know, these are the fallen angels or whatever fallen beings

48:22

Uh the territorial powers the watchers over the nations you've not done it therefore i'm going to judge you

48:30

You're i'm going to kill you and destroy you Yeah, when will this occur? the last verse verse 8

48:37

Arise, oh god Judge the earth For you shall inherit the nations.

48:43

Yeah That's messiah who inherited the nations. Jesus did when did he inherit the nations in the first century?

48:50

And what does the word arise paul always uses that that word Uh, he he quotes old testament passages that talk about god arising and he always uses it as a reference to the resurrection so in this case

49:02

I think this is a theological reference to the resurrection of christ gives it makes him the judge of the earth and he inherits the nations and When did he resurrect from the dead?

49:11

Well, that was in 80s I'm, sorry in the first century. That's when that occurred. And so that's when he judged those those principalities in the new testament

49:21

There maybe you can look this up what i'm talking about Paul uses imagery about the triumph of the triumph colossians 2.

49:28

This is the only place but this is a good one. Oh, would you? Jesus disarmed the rulers and authorities.

49:37

That's not earthly authorities folks. That's the spirit. This is the spiritual theme So jesus messiah disarmed those principalities and powers and put them to open shame by triumphing over them in him

49:49

Hmm so and and it's reference to the cross and the cross is always cross resurrection ascension

49:56

Theologically speaking those three go together. Okay, but yeah, so In his in his cross and resurrection and ascension.

50:03

That's when he disarmed those principalities and powers And he puts him up in shame, but he doesn't just shame them as it because people will say yeah

50:11

See, they've been shamed their power is taken away, but they're still there No, he triumphed over them that word triumph is a reference to the roman triumph

50:20

And here's what happened in the roman triumph in roman triumph. They would take the defeated kings

50:26

Drag them through the streets of rome to show the power of rome and then execute them at the temple of jupiter

50:33

So the triumph includes execution So my argument is the new testament itself points to the fact that messiah jesus messiah

50:42

Destroyed those territorial powers and authorities by becoming king of the earth If you're king of the earth, you can't have any more territorial authorities.

50:51

I'm, sorry. There's no more kings There's only one king right? So christians who are trying to say that there are still these watchers around they're denying the gospel

50:59

They don't know it, but they're denying the gospel So that's my argument in my book psalm 82 where I say that these watchers are no longer around There's no, you know, they've been wiped out and that's what allows the gospel to actually draw us you know that the holy spirit is able to you know draw people from every tribe and nation because They're no longer in bondage to those watchers.

51:19

That's the theological story line that I i'm telling throughout all my series

51:25

And so in the book of in the moses novel what I have is these various gods.

51:31

They're these fallen watchers, right? And they've got this control over egypt the pagan nation, but here's the thing

51:38

God wants to get them out of egypt in order to get them into his promised land.

51:43

So what does he do? He incapacitates these watchers. He you know, he just slaughters them The plagues are the express the earthly expression of what he was doing spiritually

51:53

And that make that and and then ultimately pharaoh as the god of all the gods on the earth

51:59

He gets, you know decimated by his son and then that and and that's that in a way

52:04

That's a triumphing, isn't it? You know triumphing in that time period and then that frees spiritually frees them to be able to leave egypt but then

52:15

God, you know parts the sea for them because pharaoh goes after them, right? and and so there's more theological things that go on there, but but that's what allows them to then leave the decimated

52:27

Spiritual world of egypt to be able to go into the promised land, but then when they go into the promised land

52:34

God's gonna have to do the same thing with the canaanite gods. He's gonna have to Disarm them so to speak right?

52:40

He has to deal with the israelites as well because they want to go back to old ways and uh Yeah forsake god essentially

52:48

Uh, yeah, and that's why in my novels. I actually I have a novel on joshua Uh joshua valiant caleb vigilant and then

52:56

I have jezebel uh the harlequin of israel and in those novels I show this spiritual battle going on with the archangels and the and the watchers as well as what's going on in the in You know the earthly realm but I show that Because the israelites continue to fall into idol worship

53:16

That enabled the strength of it's almost like worshiping the false gods gives them power and authority

53:24

And and that's what allows them to stay those gods to stay rooted in that land of canaan um until ultimately the messiah comes and does away with them, so You know, so I do by the way,

53:36

I write about that in my last novel of chronicles of nephilim jesus triumphant I try to depict what we just talked about here where I said about the messiah you know sort of Disinheriting all the other gods and taking the authority back like I tried to tell that story

53:52

Theologically in my novel jesus triumphant and it's pretty wild Well what i'm looking at so i'm looking at your website here, you know in the book section

54:00

So it's godowa .com forward slash books. I mean you have what like 20 books uh 25

54:06

Or something like that. So like what you're doing essentially is you're you're speaking Sweepingly about things that are delineated out very precisely in all of these books and that's what

54:16

I love about this is like, you know you hearing you speak there's worlds of information just in sentences that you use and uh, you know, we're running out of time already like To wrap this up.

54:27

Um, but I I thought occurred to me. Oh, go ahead Oh, I was gonna say one of one of the things

54:33

I do because of that I write companion books So i've got moses against the gods of egypt and then

54:38

I have a companion book called the spiritual world of moses in egypt and I give all the scriptural and historical research behind the novel because I respect the fact that a lot of christians want to go.

54:50

Hey, where are you? You know, are you making this stuff up show me in the bible? So so I do that so you'll notice that most all the books have companion books with them well a lot of the conversation that we had in this particular episode was based on the spiritual world of moses and uh,

55:03

You know trying to walk through The foundation upon which you wrote the novel the thought occurred to me.

55:10

Uh, You know trying to reach out because I know that dr. Heiser is um, he's sick um, i'm not sure how he's doing, uh lately, but you know, maybe maybe it'd be best if uh,

55:21

We chatted with him. Maybe you even joined the conversation and we could uh, parse out some of these some of these details

55:26

Because I I like I said, i'd be happy to connect him up with you Oh, let's let's talk after the

55:33

However, yeah, yeah, we will however he yeah, he is uh dealing with cancer right now I don't know if that's an issue that he'll deal with now, but um in in the future

55:40

You know if he when he puts this behind hopefully praise praise god, please Yeah, um, well then let's close.

55:49

I have uh, uh, another question and it's basically a question from our perspective, you know, um with Given everything that you said, you know in this in light of this

55:59

What are we supposed to do like how are we supposed to respond you you write in the the spiritual world of moses that there is a way that Yahweh sort of expresses these things and that is that there is a war going on between gods and men

56:14

You know, and so I guess the question is because as soon as I hear war I think of paul in second timothy

56:21

What is it to you know be a good soldier of christ, you know? So like is this a war that is still going on today what we're describing or what you've been describing going on in the old testament

56:31

It has the war shifted. Is it changed? Is it done? Like are we in the middle of this war? Like what how should we take it?

56:37

Yeah, well my opinion is that um, I think that the war is over. Uh, and and we are doing the cleanup operations

56:45

Meaning getting people saved from their sin Is our job that's what the christians do and that's what the gospel of the kingdom is it spreads throughout the earth and it brings

56:55

The saving knowledge of jesus christ, right? That wouldn't be able to occur if jesus didn't disarm all those principalities

57:02

See, so what i'm saying is the war is actually technically over christ won it and now he's seated on the like, you know think about anything, uh

57:09

Braveheart or game of thrones or whatever the king that you know When a king ascends to the throne and he wipes out his enemies, you know, that's it he won but but there's always the you know, the then you have to send out, you know, your uh, the christians then are sent out because because Jesus all the authority in heaven and earth.

57:28

There's no more authority invested in any other Principalities or powers jesus has all authority and that's what enables us to be able to give the gospel

57:36

So but I mean if you want to use uh, the notion of war you could say that, you know, we war against man's sinful nature and because One thing

57:43

I don't believe that some of the people who do believe in this they tend to attribute a lot of evil to To these principalities and powers and demons and such and while I do believe that there might still be demons around um

57:56

I don't think man needs watchers or demons to be evil Uh, it's very clear to me that the scripture says that evil comes out of our own nature.

58:04

And so in truth um, you look at the world today and people say that looks like demonic evil to me and I understand why people will say that Right, whether it's islam or whatever

58:13

But I don't think it needs to be it doesn't have to literally have demons because man is that evil that he would do

58:19

Things like genocide mass rape and all the things that he does. He doesn't need demons to do that And so we do battle against the evil of mankind and such but I know

58:28

I don't believe The spiritual battle has been won by messiah by jesus and we've got that authority now.

58:33

So so that's that's how I see it Yeah Well brian, thanks so much for joining us so is moses, uh against the gods of egypt is this going to be

58:44

Like is there going to be more in the series or is this it after that? Yeah No, no, it is a series and and I you know, i'm not sure exactly which one i'll do next but it's going to be great uh, but um, it is a series but they

58:58

I they tend to be standalone novels, but If you read the series there are there is an overarching link

59:07

Sort of like when you watch an episodic tv like ncis or something, you know each episode you can watch in and of itself

59:13

But if you watch the whole series, you're going to see an another storyline that's connecting them all

59:18

So, uh, you can start with any novel, but if you like it, you'll you'll probably tell yourself Maybe i'll go back to the beginning to the beginning and see how it flows or whatever

59:26

Or you can start in the middle and just read from there. Uh, that's the great thing about them So they're standalone novels, but they are connected in a bigger

59:34

Arc of a picture and there will be more Well, I can't wait, uh, brian godowa hollywood screenwriter, uh author of a number of books that you absolutely need to own if you're interested in theology and Apologetics or if you love great action novels, you know stories set in biblical times pertaining to eschatology theology

59:54

Things of that nature for all things godowa go to godowa g -o -d -a -w -a dot com