Moses & the Unseen Realm | Brian Godawa

Well, welcome back and happy new year.

Thank you so much for continuing to come back and watch these videos on my little old channel here.

If you are brand new, my name is Nate Sala.

I'm the president of a Christian organization called wise disciple and here at wise disciple We're all about living

effectively as Christians in today's culture and let's face it It's getting more and more difficult to be a Christian

in today's kind of culture.

So that's where we come in.

On this channel you'll find all kinds of videos dedicated to getting you to understand your Christian

faith and also be able to Communicate it effectively in the 21st century.

So I think the number one most popular series we have right now is the debate teacher react series, which I Highly

encourage you to check out.

But also we have these other things going on.

Especially today's video where I sit down with my friend Brian Godowa who is a Hollywood filmmaker and author.

Brian Just published another book that's come out based heavily on the influence of Michael Heiser.

So if any of these things interest you I definitely encourage you to check this out.

Some of you are wondering what the heck's going on behind me.

Well, I'll explain.

Okay.

I'm gonna explain a lot in the community tab over the next couple of weeks about what to expect the videos that are

forthcoming.

Definitely come back to the community tab.

Finally for those of you that have been paying attention I got kovat right at the beginning of January and

Look I was.

I had some time to sit there and reflect what happened.

How did I get Kovat?

Well, this is totally logical.

So don't question it.

I shaved my mustache off you know what I'm saying and.

So now that I've grown it back. I'm all better.

Come on now.

That's not a fallacy in any sense.

Well, anyway, thank you so much for watching this particular video.

I hope that it encourages you and stay tuned because we have a lot going on in 2022.

So Brian, thanks so much for joining me.

It's been like way way too long and we were just talking about this like almost two years or so.

But before we jump into anything at all the thought occurred to me this morning.

I don't think I've ever asked you this but you know, you wrote to end all wars starring Kiefer Sutherland.

We talked about you just wrote my son Hunter about Hunter Biden starring Gina Carano.

You have the awesome short cruel logic starring Tony Hale of Arrested Development.

And of course now all the books that you've authored.

But the question is how did you break into Hollywood in the first place?

I was kind of the old school.

Well, I don't know what the new school is these days to be honest I would assume that a lot of people in the other go to film school and then that's how they make their

connections and Stuff and then that's how they get work, etc.

But anyway, the old school version was You know definitely was you know.

You just you out of love you you pursue it out of passionate on the side.

Until you can break in and that's what I did.

So as a screenwriter I You know many many years ago when I first started out I just I loved movies and I

wanted to be a screenwriter.

But I didn't want to be a starving artist and I'd already had a college degree and was read and had a job and got Married

with graphic design.

So I said I didn't want to be a starving artist and you know.

So I'll just do my day job live my life and I'll write on the side and give it a couple years.

You know, and so I did that and I read every book.

I couldn't screenwriting went to every seminar I couldn't screenwriting went to pitch seminars and learn, you know bought the books about what do you do

to break in?

And it's basically, you know at that time a lot of it and I think still is is pounding the streets kind of thing.

You know pounding on doors and fuck telephone numbers and emails and all that stuff so I did all that for years for a few years and

and Ironically the way that you break in you can break in any one of a number of ways.

It's usually who you know, so but I did everything I could as an

outsider to just break in and Like I said, including writing, you know.

Half a dozen screenplays before my first movie got made because that's you got to keep doing it and keep practicing it so I did that for a

few years and my first movie was twinned all wars, which ended up being made in about 2001 and.

But the way I how they got made was I actually met of all the I know I'm up in Hollywood I'm trying to break in the typical

way and it's so ironic what I was actually living in Orange County went to church there and

I met one of the pastors of the church gave a sermon and talked and he quoted Nietzsche

and and Frankie Frank.

Frankie not Frankie Francis Schaefer Schaefer I would never quote Frankie Schaefer.

But but and I just thought oh I like this guy, you know.

So I got to know him it turns out he was producing movies on the side and always been wanting to you know.

Make movies and he's kind of doing what I was doing.

But as a producer and he said I have this property for many years.

And of course, it was the the the story that ended up being to end all wars, you know.

He got you know, and we connected up and it's so I broke into Hollywood through a connection

to the church.

And that's the irony of it all.

I never anticipated that would be the case, right?

And so my first movie movie was made that way and then.

After that, you just you know, you'd think a lot of people think oh then you're you break in and and

you know.

You know all of a sudden you start doing all this work.

Well, it didn't happen for me actually the director's career exploded but mine didn't and I had to go

back to square one right away and I had a lot of depression actually in those in that year because

facing the reality that it doesn't always work for everybody and.

You know right away and and you know I I was to discover later on to that even successful

people will have their ups and downs where they may not know if they're.

Even have work the next year, even though there might be successful and famous, you know, right?

It's just such an up -and -down world.

So I said I basically had to start from from square one.

I couldn't rest on any laurels just because I got a movie made now having made a movie It does help you a little bit maybe

get some meetings and talk to people.

But then you know.

You've got to just keep making stuff because if you don't you're only as important as your last project so to speak.

So yeah, so that's how I broke in.

What so you mentioned.

One more question on this.

Because I love this.

This could be like it's all own episode but.

You said about books.

You were trying to read a bunch of books that you could or whatever.

You got to tell me was Sid Fields book.

One of those books.

Sid, yeah, and my day that was the only book available.

Honestly, so we're talking, you know decades ago, right?

One of the only books.

Maybe there might have been one other book I'm not kidding you.

It was like I can't what was it?

I can't remember what it's called.

But yeah, I read the Sid Field.

Yeah, and then shortly after that John Truby came out and I listened to his seminars.

And of course now you've got a million books on screenwriting, right?

So yeah.

Yes.

It was a one of my initial influences.

It's funny because I feel like you and I connect on something that we've probably never talked about before but around.

Oh one I'm just finishing school with a minor in film because I want to go to Hollywood get an agent and be a screenwriter myself.

And so I think I think that's partly why we've gotten along so well is because I think we understand each other.

But I I'm really so proud of you because you actually have accomplished quite a bit now.

The latest thing that we're talking about here is your brand new book.

Okay, and we're gonna get to it in just a minute highly encourage everyone to purchase a copy of the book.

It's Moses against the gods.

Wait, did I say that right.

Against the gods of Egypt.

Against the gods of Egypt?

I'm so sorry.

It's a great book.

I'm gonna be sifting through this book over the Christmas holiday.

But let's let's talk about the spiritual world of Moses for a few minutes.

So in Deuteronomy chapter 32 Moses talks about a time of the sons of

God.

Now this phrase is Disagreed upon about what it what it's pertaining to or what it's describing.

So who were the sons of God Brian?

Yeah.

To ease into this the the novel is part of a series.

It's a standalone novel, but it's part of a series called Chronicles of the Watchers which is also

integrated into my previous series Chronicles of the Nephilim and.

The premise of this series is I'm retelling Biblical stories as Bible epics.

I like them as you know, big huge epics and action and romance and all that but I'm

I'm I'm.

Telling the story but also trying to tell a an additional story of what what the

spiritual world might look like.

Behind the veil behind the curtain, you know.

So to speak right of what's going on at the same time that these biblical stories are going on because you know.

We hear you know in the Bible, of course mentions, you know various angels visiting and and etc.

And the angel of Yahweh and such but.

But there's more to it go that's going on behind the scenes then.

We normally realize and this isn't made up this isn't just like a spiritual warfare.

Yeah, there's angels and demons of lust demons of lust fighting angels of holiness or whatever, you know.

It's no there's actually a sort of a high -level.

Spiritual.

War of principalities and powers that's going on.

That is connected to what's going on on earth and this isn't made up.

This is actually I got this from the Bible and when I drew it from the Bible when I was studying it many years

ago Influenced heavily by Michael Heiser.

And When I did that it opened up my eyes kind of like Elisha's servant you know remember that

story where Elisha's servant was all worried because these armies were coming down on Jerusalem and he's like Oh God

opened his eyes and he saw he saw heavenly armies, you know, and that was part of the

revelation of.

When there's a earthly war, there's a heavenly war too.

And but you know to see that through the eye that the servant had his eyes open and that's what I felt

like happened To me where I started realizing there are a lot more scriptures that refer to this world than then

I realized.

This isn't a secret Gnostic Knowledge, it's it's on the more you begin to

understand the ancient Near Eastern Context of the Bible the more you can see these things.

So what you're referring to for example is Deuteronomy 32.

Which is a one of the psalm 82 is one of the classic references, but Deuteronomy 32

which is really relevant to what we're talking about because Moses wrote it before they even went in the Canaan, right and

The 32 8 through 10 says when the Most High gave the nations their inheritance when he divided mankind.

He fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

But the Lord's portion is his people.

Jacob is allotted heritage.

And and most scholars will will tell you Bible commentators will say that this is a reference to the Tower of Babel in other words the

dividing of mankind.

Giving the nations their inheritance and what does that mean?

Well when God separated the tongues at at Babel and they spread out on the earth and then Genesis

10 talks about the 70 Gentile nations, right?

Those were the 70 Gentile nations that were divided at the Tower of Babel and.

And that act of separation that God involved and it included something else.

And that's something else is the second part of the passage.

We says he don't you know, he fixed the borders of the people.

So in other words, he's saying, you know, these people are gonna be here.

There's people are gonna be there by separating them by language.

Right and and the notion here is inheritance.

What does that mean?

Meaning inheritance in the ancient biblical context basically means land.

It's in other words.

This is my territory.

We are inheriting this territory.

And he did it according to the number of the sons of God but Yahweh.

His portion is his people Jacob.

What does that mean?

Well, I'll show you in a second.

But but you know.

Take my word for it.

Now that the sons of God are a is a technical term in the Bible.

That's referred to heavenly beings from God's heavenly host and but they're not just good

guys.

All right, I think it's clear that they're actually bad guys.

And that there was a falling of some kind in other passages we can see that but the reason why he's

doing this is because these Gentile nations after Rebelling against God so he sends

the flood right he starts all over but then what happens they become idolatrous all over again.

They keep worshiping false.

God.

They build the Tower of Babel, right?

Yeah, and so God's basically saying like Romans 1, okay I'm gonna give you over if you you're gonna worship these

false gods I'm gonna place you under them under their authority, right and They will

be your inheritance.

You will be theirs, but I will the God of Israel.

I will be you know, Israel will be my people.

So he's basically saying that these these sons of God's rule over these various Gentile territories of the nations.

And that's a that's a principle that goes throughout the the Old Testament, you know, remember Daniel Daniel 4,

right?

Watchers what is a watcher the watcher is watching over certain nations and then in

Daniel 9 I think it is where it says the Prince of Persia and the Prince of Greece and Bible scholars all

pretty much acknowledge that these are spiritual princes over the nations so there's a spiritual

principality over Greece over Persia and Over Israel as well

and some you know, not only Yahweh is over Israel.

But you know Daniel indicates that Michael is the prince over Israel.

So Michael the Archangel, so there's this notion that these these territorial

Beings are our authority over the over these nations.

And by the way, that's why all the world stays in darkness and Israel just struggles on its own you know

because they're in bondage to these false gods and.

But Yahweh is trying to bring a light that will shine and ultimately Yahweh promises Messiah will come.

Yeah, take the inheritance of all those territories back through Jesus the Messiah and in so

doing he allows people to.

You know come into the kingdom in a way.

They couldn't back in the Old Testament.

Right, right.

Let me let me Let you know where I'm coming from with all this because I know that we've talked about this before I'm not sure

if I've told you this but You know, I I went through school, you know got a theology degree and was taught

something different that.

You know the sons of God were more the righteous line of Seth or something

and then when we get to Genesis chapter 5 and 6 we see that you know, the the righteous line did some things

that they weren't supposed to do or you know, whatever but.

So I've always understood the sons of God as people, but I've never really looked into it.

And now you mentioned dr. Michael Heizer.

So it sounds like what you're what you're explaining now is influenced by dr. Heizer's work, is

that right?

Yeah, heavily.

So the unseen realm.

He's the evangelical scholar who believes the Bible.

This isn't liberalism.

He's the one that would recommend you read if you want a good evangelical scholarly approach of this whole narrative theme that

I'm talking about because it's not just like a Isolated element.

It's like a whole.

Yeah theological theme and He's what influenced me.

But I've written a book called when Giants were upon the earth and that's my biblical

Addressing of these theological issues and I try to address the the view that they're the righteous sons of

Seth the sons of God and The idea here is there's there's three major views the supernatural

view, which is that well first of all We're jumping ahead of ourselves sons of God.

Where does that even originate?

The first place that originates is you know Genesis 6 1 through 4 when man became them right before

the flood when man began to multiply in the face of the Land and daughters were born to them the sons of God

Saw that the daughters of man were attractive and they took his wives any they chose.

The Lord said my spiritual abide with man forever 120 years the Nephilim were on the earth in these day in those

days and also afterward when the sons of God came into had Sex with the daughters of man and bore children

to them.

These were the mighty men who were of old men of her now now.

You're right there.

There's three major traditions and there's a lot, you know, we can't go through all of them here.

I do in my book.

But.

The the oldest view of the of the church and Jews is that these sons of

God who are they having sex with the daughters of men that there are angels from heaven.

Basically angel is a very generic term.

It's not a very good term.

But they're divine beings from God's heavenly throne that come to earth and they violate God's

separation of heaven and earth and they have sex with these women, you know, and then they that that that

unnatural union of heavenly and earthly being creates those giant Nephilim and they're sort of that

cursed seed that end up being connected to the promised land when we'll talk about that later, but.

But.

So that's the most ancient view.

But then around the second first century or so other views came in and Augustine was

very influential Julius Africanus, but Augustine made it really popular.

He came from a Gnostic background.

He was very he looked at that and said that's sounds too much like my Gnosticism like mythology so so I

think he had a sort of a fear of Believing something that sounded too much like what he came from.

So he came up with the Sethite view.

I'm a he didn't come up with the Julius Africanus was the first one, but the sethite view became sort of the scholarly academic

Answer to the to the supernatural interpretation and in more recent years, I believe In the

reformed camps a lot of them Meredith Klein is a big influence that would argue the sons of

God are references to Earthly kings pagan kings who saw themselves as

sons of God literally.

Yeah, and that they and they had polygamous marriages with women that's another that's another view.

This is you know, if you want to simplify it, it's like are they human or are they?

Angelic are they heavenly angelic?

And so yeah without going into all these detail I do in my book too much detail, but

You have to do an actual Biblical study on that phrase sons of God.

It's it's a technical term that like some people say well Israel is referred to as son of God.

No, actually it never is.

It's it's got one passage God says Israel is my son, but he doesn't call him right son of God and

that.

There's a reason for that because it is a technical term and you look it up everywhere where it shows and you see it's talking About some beings of

some kind and I would argue, you know, whether it's Job or talks about the sons of God.

You know with Satan, you know Roman the earth and you read the sons of God or later in Job it says in the beginning

of creation Job 39 I think the beginning of creation the sons of God were there singing for

joy when God created, you know the heavens and stuff so those are heavenly beings and and.

So there's the that tradition is rooted in in the biblical concept and then you

know New Testament we're talking about we become sons of God.

There's a link there.

It's not saying we become gods or something like that.

But we become like those angelic beings we become like when we are resurrected.

Actually when we become Christians and the Holy Spirit comes in us the transformation of who we are our identity.

What is we are sons of God?

But it's not yet shown what we will be because we will be like him later, right?

And so later, you know in death and resurrection our bodies become transformed and ultimately we are.

We become sons of God like the sons of God around God's heavenly throne in the Bible.

And that's why he talks about all this language of glowing and stuff like that and and so so the sons of

God thing is a notion that is heavenly oriented and and if you if you look closely at the Genesis passage the

The you know, are they human if you may if you think of it this way if you think of them as human category.

Then you're saying human category.

Sees human category and you know.

Then the daughters of men right and they're marrying and there's some kind of bizarre thing that comes out of that then the Nephilim comes

Out of that.

It's like well, how is it that if it's just human categories that it's talking about here.

There's no.

There's no.

There's no dichotomy.

But you read the passage you get a sense of dichotomy between the heaven and the earth.

And why would they call them daughters of man, right?

I mean.

Of course the daughters of man, you know I mean like what right and if you start if you if you say well the Seth

line of Seth are righteous.

So they're called sons of God.

But the daughters of Cain are a cursed line and their daughters of man.

They like they don't have God, you know, you you you fall into this sort of a very dangerous category I think

of categorizing whole categories of people when in fact biblically speaking.

They're all sinners and they've all been they're all sons of Adam, right?

And so I think that I think that the the category that's being Dichotomized here is between

heaven and earth.

And so sons of God are the heaven They see the daughters of man on earth and their union creates that that hybrid Union.

Let me ask you something.

What the the.

So the sons of God were the Angelic beings that were around the throne.

And and I guess they were expelled.

So some of this is gonna sound really elementary.

So I'm trying not to you know, like I really don't know where I'm where I'm at here.

That's fair.

And I'm and I'm learning.

But they were expelled from the throne of God.

So I take it like with the devil and then they were put to the earth

and then they ruled so.

This is a these are physical beings that resembled humans and and then

and then they they but they had.

Like where do they get the ability to.

I guess rule then is is it in there in there in the essence of who they are.

Their special status as angelic beings.

I admit this stuff sounds wild.

Look when I when I I I Always avoided this passage and it was only like I said years ago when I fought I

just read I was reading Heiser and I just had to realize well.

This is really there and I've got a deal with it.

You know if I can believe God can part a sea and raise a man from the dead.

Is it really that crazy to believe that maybe angels who we don't know anything about really?

Can have sex with humans and create something weird?

It's I admit it's weird.

But if it's in the Bible, it's in the Bible but there are other passages that sort of you know, you you draw from and

and that helps you come to realize well.

What what what does this mean?

Yeah, what's going on here?

And so what I think is is this is another this notion of I think it's rooted in this that there is

this fall of Angelic fall and that's what it's part of these sons of God.

That's one of the reasons why God did send the flood.

He did send it for man's sin.

But if you read it closely, he talks about violence on the face of the earth.

It's not just human sin human violence, but there's actually violence in general, which includes these other beings.

But the ancient world including the Bible has this notion of these Territorial authorities

like when there's a war on earth, there's a war in heaven, you know to our modern sensibilities.

That sounds weird, right?

But like I said, there's already hints of that that we see in Daniel.

Where did they come from?

And why.

Yeah, I think what's I think what's going on here is this is part of the storyline that That Deuteronomy

points to and there's other passages.

We just don't have the time to you know.

Spend going through all of them, but right but you know Psalm 82 is another one, you know where it says.

Let me let me go there.

You know and all of these have different arguments.

Oh, these are these are men who who are in the place of God not God's themselves.

But right, but nonetheless the text itself says Psalm 82.

God has taken his place in the divine council.

In the midst of the gods he holds judgment.

How long will you judge just like if you look at Psalm 89 you see that this council is in the heavens.

It's not on earth.

And so some people say oh, those are men who are representing as judges.

They represent God and and um, you know.

If you I don't think there's anything in the text that indicates that I don't think there's anything in the Bible that indicates that a judge

is called a god.

But if you look up the word gods at me, it's Elohim.

Elohim is the same word that's used of Yahweh at times but it's also used of a

Disembodied spirit like Samuel when he came up from you know with the witch of Endor they he was

called an Elohim.

So the dead are sometimes called Elohim.

God is called Elohim and.

And and I would argue and there's other places angels are called Elohim gods.

So what that means is it's not a polytheism.

It's and this was the hardest thing as an evangelical to me because I like that sounds like Mormonism or polytheism, you know.

Right, but if you study if you study Elohim, you know, by the way, I think that there's if you if you guys.

You listeners get a chance go to the Bible project calm the Bible project calm.

They've got these little informative videos.

They're fantastic.

Type in Elohim five minute video and they talk about these spiritual beings and what this means and such but

a study of the word Elohim is it doesn't mean in the way that God like we think of it as well if the word God means

it's a it's a real God who creates things and such.

No, no God the word Elohim.

There's a word for being any being who exists within that spiritual realm, right?

So that's why angelic beings would be called Elohim or his heavenly counsel the divine

counsel.

That's that's heavenly.

That's not earthly divine, right?

And we see passages like in you know, Second Kings 22 with Micah and all the spirits

around God's throne is his heavenly host earth's divine beings, right?

And so.

So as well as as well as this being of Samuel in that realm and God so that's why you read passages were

says Yahweh is the God of gods, right?

He is an Elohim, but he's the Elohim of Elohim, which means there's no other Elohim like him.

Obviously, there's no other creator God.

There's all these beings are just divine angelic what we would call in today's world angels

and so but but they are heavenly so they're not the same as we are and You

know.

You get references to this in Jude 3 for instance and and second Peter as well.

But Jude 3 6 says and he's talking about these these godless false

teachers and how and he's comparing them and Incidentally says Jesus saved a people out of the land of

Egypt which points to Moses.

He said and the angels who did not stay within their own position or authority or their own But

left their proper dwelling or their proper abode.

He God has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness.

This is one of those weird passages, right?

Right.

This is what I'm saying is this Understanding connects and makes sense of all these weird passages that

I never made sense before right?

Well, the angels who did not stay within their own position or authority or their dwelling in heaven.

Well, they came to earth.

I think that this is what Judas referring to.

He's referring to this Genesis passage these angels.

They rebelled in some way and they came to earth and they had that sex and then though they were punished at the flood.

They were kept in eternal chains, right?

So Jude is referring to them and comparing the false teachers to those those evil beings, you

know.

Because it was also a tradition of the Jewish You know Second Temple

period that these these angels that came to earth Also that were

fallen they also taught man things like war and Harlotry and stuff, you know, so

so they they it's not like it's not like man isn't guilty of his sin.

But but the idea there was a they they helped man along by teaching him the occult and all these occultic things, right?

And so that's in the book of Enoch, which is also a no.

It's not a scriptural book, but it is a highly respected book in Judaism as well as early Christianity

and so a lot of these theologians draw some ideas from that, but I I Draw

most all my interpretation from the scriptures themselves and there's plenty of them that talk about this.

So these are divine beings and the premise is I see it like this.

It's like It's like all of mankind is is is evil, right?

God spreads them out and divides them by nation, you know.

Because why because if they what did he say if if I let them go there's no end to this, you know.

What they can do of evil that they can do so by splitting man up with languages and nations it keeps the

evil.

What's the word?

At but not unified what's the opposite of unified decentralized he decentralizes evil at Babel, right?

But the notion here is is It's like if you're going to if you're gonna worship these gods, I'm

gonna give you over to them.

But I'm gonna keep one people for myself and we are going to be though.

They're gonna be the light that shines and so these territorial Demonic type beings what

it you know, whatever they are these these sons of God.

They are the watchers over the nations it's just an ancient worldview element that we're not used to

and We don't like but I think it is definitely in the biblical text.

So when Moses talks about Deuteronomy effect Later in

that same passage of Deuteronomy 32 later on he says so he's talking

about What's gonna happen in Canaan and how Israelites are gonna go in Canaan they're gonna fall and

worship false gods.

And here's what he says.

They'll sacrifice they sat it's prophetic proleptic.

It's in the past tense.

They said Israelites Sacrificed.

I'm sorry.

They stirred Yahweh to jealousy with strange gods abominations.

They provoked him to anger.

They sacrificed to demons that were no gods.

Gods, they had never known to new gods that had come recently whom your fathers had never dreaded so this

is where I get the notion that these these These gods of Canaan have a demonic

reality to them now.

Am I saying that therefore, you know All the gods of Canaan like Baal and Asher

are literally actual demonic Beings.

I don't know exactly.

But I do know that the text does point to a reality behind the gods of Canaan.

What that reality looks like.

I'm not sure.

I think it's deception and you know, you only need a couple of Fallen angels to impersonate various

deities, right?

And I'm not even saying that therefore everything that these false religions of Canaan and Egypt Talk

about really happened or anything like that.

But what I'm saying is there's a demonic reality behind the gods.

They worship that keep kept man.

Gentile nations in bondage.

Until Messiah came when the gospel comes men from every tribe in every nation all of a sudden can get saved because they're no longer.

And then under that bondage see and that's actually what Psalm 82 points at but this is this is where I get this notion that

There's a demonic reality.

So what I did to write my series Chronicles of Watchers and Nephilim and all that was I said well, what if

this is my this is my sort of Imagination trying to make things come together and have sense.

I'm not saying this is the scriptures or anything, but.

So what if the gods of the ancient world like the gods of Canaan Baal and stuff or the gods of Egypt, right?

Like Horus and such what if what if there were real demonic entities behind them?

And they were these fallen angels that that that rebelled against God and some of them were

some of them were.

What's the word imprisoned at the flood for sure, but that doesn't mean they're all gone, right?

Cuz they're still Satan and his angels, right?

So so what if what if they were behind that and so that brick gives some legitimacy to the

occultic nature and power of pagan religions and That's the premise of

my novel.

So novel series so jumping to Moses Against the gods of Egypt, which is my newest

novel and I think one of my one of my best because it's really interesting God

actually says in.

Exodus.

1212 He says he's gonna pass through Egypt on all the gods of

Egypt.

I will execute judgments I am the Lord on all the gods.

What does that mean?

That's not just the app so met we always assume it's just a metaphorical abstract notion but what if

there is a true demonic reality behind those gods and and.

So I use that premise in my Moses novel and I retell Moses a story.

But I I premise it on that that these false gods of Egypt may have demonic reality behind them.

So we see these these beings who take on the names of Horus and Isis and

Osiris and such.

And so when God actually does send the plagues.

It's it's been it's been.

One of the theories that some people have have thrown out is that well There's a couple

theories one is that their neck they naturally they were occurred.

They occurred naturally just excessively, right?

That's been debunked because a lot of them don't fit with the natural what's going on with nature at the time.

That's the Lee Scott Movie, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

But there's another view that sort of said well, yeah see God is each plague there's got there's many gods of Egypt and there's a

god of locusts and there's a god of you know flies and there's a god of the Nile

right like hoppy is the god of the Nile and.

And so God is doing judgment on each of those gods by judging the various realms or whatever that they're

they're gods of but the.

There's a problem with that and I did a study on this and and it doesn't really work out.

And so for example, there is a god of locusts called Senna him sent him I think

he's almost like unknown.

It's a very much most of these gods that people like there's a there's a frog god, you know I'm plague of frogs a cat, but

it's not a major God.

So so it doesn't make sense that he that there would be these plagues that represent minor deities in you

know World where that was ruled by a Horus right now.

Yeah now Pharaoh was supposed to be Horus on earth.

So when he strikes the firstborn, that's that's pretty important, right?

Rah was the Sun God All right.

But here's here's the problem that there none of these gods in Egypt as I did my study on them.

None of them are Singular representative of anything like there's a

the god, you know the the god of the Nile like You know hoppy or whatever.

It's that he's not just a god of the Nile.

He's the god of fertility having to do with the the agriculture of the time period, right?

So a lot of these gods actually have multiple things that they're a part of so I actually did research and found out

like for example, the the the The Nile itself.

Let's see if I can find my research on that.

I forgot to open up my research.

Whoo -hoo bad boy.

So.

In in my book spiritual world of Moses and I look up the interior I see.

There are multiple gods for each of these things.

So and I chronicle them like for instance the the Nile itself I found

like 15 different gods related to the Nile.

There's so back the crocodile God and the crocodile God is not just got a crocodile as he also

represents you know the strength and the and the.

The strength of Pharaoh actually and and and this is why in in

One of the Old Testament texts the fair the Pharaoh of that time.

I think it's Hofra.

I think it's Ezekiel I can't remember where but he's he's making a judgment and he likens Pharaoh to a

Dragon in the in the river.

Well, he's mocking this so back.

You know notion of Pharaoh and he's calling him like the dragon that that's like Leviathan if these.

Sons of God were set up as watchers over nations and

and Moses is essentially going up against the gods of Egypt.

But there's still all these other watchers that are maybe over the land of Canaan.

They're over the nation the other nations that we read of in in biblical times.

I mean, is this also what's going on with as the Israelites leave Egypt and they

go into the land of Canaan.

Now they start conquering Jericho.

Another thing.

Like our is Israel fighting battle against these watchers as well.

Well what I how I see it as biblically speaking is no they're Israelites are fighting

there, you know, they they are fighting the tribes of Canaan.

Who were giant tribes tribes of giants and such and they were supposed to eliminate them.

But at the same time in the heavenly there was a war going on.

And.

Again what that looks like nobody knows because the bible doesn't say much about it so so, you know,

I I have to fictionalize it and and um.

What I do is I draw from the various pagan mythologies like the the the you know, like

bail or the moses novel I literally drew from the The sort of the pagan

egyptian sources of the god stories and I integrated those stories into my story um

in you know in a way to sort of make sense of them and um, so.

So when god does the plagues for example.

Here here I found it like for the nile itself.

I got like 15 gods related to the now there's a fish goddess.

There's a hippopotamus goddess.

There's a god of the life of the nile.

The nile was considered the blood of osiris the bloodstream of osiris, right?

There's a god of primeval waters noon.

It goes on and on and so so the point here is that.

Well, what how were the plagues then god judging the gods of egypt?

Here's how I see it and there's a whole cool theological thing going on actually, I think but.

Every one of those the the frogs the gnats the flies.

There's many gods that are connected.

And by the way, it wasn't flies.

It was really pests.

So it pests includes flies and includes Uh the dung beetles and includes all

these things.

Yeah, so.

What what what's happening here is the egyptians had a whole world view that their their worldview was that

their life.

The nile was the source of life.

That was the true sort of the ultimate god for them other than pharaoh was horus on earth, but

All these gods worked within nature as what we would call nature and they were all functioning together

as a sort of a um Symbiotic system, right?

So when god's doing these judgments, it's not that he's judging the god of frogs.

He's just doing all these he's doing what's the bible calls Decreation and what that means is

he's turning the elements of nature in back into chaos, right?

So a plague of frogs is chaos, right?

Because frogs are there but when they become a plague they're chaos.

The gnats the flies the boils all these things are returning nature to

chaos, which was god saying He was literally.

Sort of saying this whole system and all these guys that you think are controlling.

They have no power at all.

I'm in control.

I'm returning your creation that they're supposed to have power over.

I'm returning it to chaos.

Why because i'm the creator god and out of that chaos i'm going to bring israel.

Bring them through the waters and into a new land to create my covenant into order.

So he's going to create order out of chaos, right, but he turns egypt into chaos.

And so what does that look like in the spiritual realm?

I don't know so in my novel I kind of came up with a way that makes theological sense of what that

might look like how these These various gods were being judged.

Um, and like I say, it's so it's not like a specific god of frogs or flies.

It's that each of those becomes this sort of um, uh, uh, uh

destruction of the notion.

That these gods are ruling egypt, they're actually nothing in god's eyes, you know.

So that's kind of the principle of that.

Yeah, there's a there's a model here too because now you're getting the the gears going in my head.

There's a model for this too because I mean when you say decreation revelation is understood to be decreation and so you have

this um.

Way, I guess of drawing from revelation.

I don't know if that's what you did.

But in revelation you have two realities.

You have the reality on the ground of the destruction that's taking place and which by the way.

There are lots of plagues in revelation as well.

But then you also have this other reality that's taking place in the heavenly realms.

And both are happening at the same time.

So this is what you're saying is basically your.

Your two focuses are foci on yeah.

No, you're absolutely right.

Um revelation is a is a stronger picture of that spiritual reality.

Uh that isn't as as evident, you know, it's not as depicted in in exodus for example.

But it's interesting because the book of revelation draws heavily from exodus.

In fact, it's the the second exodus motif is very strong because they're going to ultimately

say that that um.

You know book of revelation ultimately says that the earthly israel who rejected jesus as messiah

has become egypt.

And the true israelites are now the jewish believers in christ messiah.

They will leave.

The physical earthly jerusalem and god will destroy it like he destroyed egypt.

That's the motif that's going on throughout revelation.

And like you said, yeah and but revelation shows us a lot more of the spiritual kind of.

You know imagery that's going on but revelation draws heavily on exodus.

Absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely.

Boy, so then if this was a reality in the old testament.

So again the whole conversation that what that we're having and as we premiere this if you're just watching The video

we're talking about the brand new book by brian godowa.

It's called moses against the gods of egypt and Strongly encourage you to take a look at it

read it and then go to godowa .com because there's tons of other books in this series but um.

Uh.

Where are the sons of god?

Now so like if they're angelic beings and they had this influence.

Yeah I understand that they don't have the same influences as they did back then.

Are they still walking around now?

Are they like, you know, they're walking among us kind of a thing or what's going on there?

Well, that's a very good question and in my book psalm 82 You

know, I I got a book for everything dude, okay, but seriously You know

when giants were upon the earth is is an extended uh Explanation of everything that's going on in my novels

but psalm 82 is a short booklet I wrote that Lays out the basic principle that we've

been talking about here and shows all the biblical all the biblical um Arguments for this

notion of what we're talking about called the watcher paradigm or the divine council, right?

And in that book I do I do argue now the Um those who believe in this

understanding of the divine council in text or watchers and such there there is

a significant segment of what I call nephilim nuts and they you know, they Extrapolate this

stuff out into the present and i'm not in that i'm not in a group I'm more in the in the theological

understanding of this concept.

More than the science fiction of you know, they just what's gonna really be, you know, I don't know.

That's what I keep saying is I don't know what it really looks like.

So my novels are and my novels are theological novels.

They're an attempt to you know Draw on fiction that will be consistent with the bible but make sense of

the theology what it actually looks like i'm not sure.

But here's one way of making sense of it.

And so, um, uh, so these in that camp of the You know

nephilim nuts or the divine council camp.

There are many who believe that uh, there's these.

There are still these territorial Powers over the nations, right?

They they talk about them and they they refer to things in the past.

It's like well the bible says You know new testament says satan is the god of this world.

So, you know, he's still the god of this world, etc right, here's the problem is That the new

testament was written before the temple fell in ad 70.

So what the things that paul was writing related to principalities and powers, which I do believe is a reference

to this.

This divine council meaning he's not just saying oh, we're wrestling.

We wrestle against angels and demons, you know, it's like no.

No, he's saying principalities and powers meaning over their belief was over the

Earthly authorities there were heavenly authorities.

So when he says we wrestle against principalities powers.

He's talking about the powers that sought to stop messiah and it's not just earthly powers, but they're connected to spiritual

powers.

So he's talking about all that motif, but here's the thing until the temple is destroyed uh, the the the

new the um the gospel kingdom uh was not yet

Earthly established.

It was in the heavenlies with christ's ascension into heaven and the kingdom was begun.

But there's a earthly there's a heavenly and an earthly Component to god's establishment of

his kingdom and while he established his his his new covenant with the death and resurrection of christ.

The old covenant was still around.

Why because the temple was still there the temple was the essence of the old covenant so that's why you see even

paul and some of the apostles going to temple and yet he's writing at the same time that We are

the temple and there is no need for the temple, you know, so it's like what's going on here.

Well, right that that new testament era or book of acts is a transition period between covenants the

new the old covenant has been uh, you know Overturned by the new covenant in christ at

the death resurrection ascension.

However.

The old covenant had yet to be historically and publicly destroyed in the temple.

So.

That's you've got this 40 year time period where it's sort of like it's a transition period.

It's messy is what i'm saying.

So that's what paul's talking about.

Yeah a generation.

That's what paul's talking about.

You know, there's still principalities and powers because it is not completed yet.

It's in process.

But the the the bottom line of it is and and I go back to um, psalm 82

on this.

And that is you know, psalm 82 talks about god being in the midst of the gods in heaven, right?

Um, and and then it talks about he says, you know, you're supposed to You you show partiality to the wicked he

goes you're judging unjustly.

In other words god has established these gods to be over these nations and he's saying you have been unjust you

are demonic.

All right, and he go and then he says, you know, uh, I said you are god sons of the most high yet.

Nevertheless like men you shall die.

So god's going to judge these princes.

By killing them like men.

Right and remember jesus jesus appealed to this passage when they said i'm god and they go you're not god and what he

said.

Your own text says you are gods.

These are this phrase.

You are gods is not a reference to human judges.

It's a reference to divine beings.

Jesus was claiming divinity when he quoted this passage.

He wasn't claiming to be a human judge.

That's that's to me the biggest argument against the human judge or human ruler if jesus was

Appealing to psalm 82.

Have I not have you has has christian not said you are gods?

Well, if he's just saying if he's saying that's That that they're just human judges and jesus is not

claiming divinity.

He's only claiming to be like a human judge see and that doesn't jive with scripture.

Anyway Wow in psalm 82 the idea there is that okay i've given you this rule, but you you're

evil you've you've ruled unjustly these.

You know, these are the fallen angels or whatever fallen beings.

Uh the territorial powers the watchers over the nations.

You've not done it.

Therefore i'm going to judge you you're i'm going to kill you and destroy you.

Yeah, when will this occur?

The last verse.

Verse eight arise.

Oh god judge the earth.

For you shall inherit the nations.

Yeah.

That's messiah who inherited the nations.

Jesus did.

When did he inherit the nations in the first century?

And what does the word arise paul always uses that that word?

Uh, he he quotes old testament passages that talk about god arising and he always uses it as a reference to the

resurrection.

So in this case I think this is a theological Reference to the resurrection of christ gives it makes him the

judge of the earth and he inherits the nations.

And when did he resurrect from the dead?

Well, that was in 80 I'm, sorry in the first century.

That's when that occurred.

And so that's when he judged those those principalities in the new testament.

There maybe you can look this up what i'm talking about.

Paul uses imagery about the triumph of the triumph colossians 2 this is the only place but this is a good one.

Oh, would you watch this 215?

Jesus disarmed the rulers and authorities.

That's not earthly authorities folks.

That's the spirit.

This is the spiritual theme.

So jesus messiah disarmed those principalities and powers and put them to open shame by

triumphing over them in him.

So and and it's reference to the cross and the cross is always cross resurrection ascension.

Theologically speaking those three go together.

Okay, but yeah.

So.

In his in his cross and resurrection and ascension.

That's when he disarmed those principalities and powers.

And he puts them up in shame, but he doesn't just shame them as it because people will say yeah.

See, they've been shamed their power is taken away, but they're still there.

No, he triumphed over them.

That word triumph is a reference to the roman triumph.

And here's what happened in the roman triumph in roman triumph.

They would take the defeated kings.

Drag them through the streets of rome to show the power of rome and then execute them at the temple of

jupiter.

So the triumph includes execution.

So my argument is the new testament itself points to the fact that messiah jesus messiah.

Destroyed those territorial powers and authorities by becoming king of the earth.

If you're king of the earth, you can't have any more territorial authorities.

I'm, sorry.

There's no more kings.

There's only one king, right?

So christians who are trying to say that there are still these watchers around they're denying the gospel.

They don't know it, but they're denying the gospel.

So that's my argument in my book psalm 82 where I say that these watchers are no longer around.

There's no, you know, they're they've been wiped out and uh, that's what allows the gospel to actually draw us

you know that the holy spirit is able to you know, Draw people from every tribe and nation because they're no longer in bondage

to those watchers.

That's the theological storyline.

That I i'm telling throughout all my series.

And so in the book of in the moses novel what I have is these various gods.

There are these fallen watchers, right?

And they've got this control over egypt the pagan nation, but here's the thing God wants to get them out of

egypt.

In order to get them into his promised land.

So what does he do?

He incapacitates these watchers?

He you know, he just slaughters them the plagues are the express the earthly expression of what he was doing

spiritually.

And that make that and and then ultimately pharaoh as the god of all the gods on the

earth.

He gets, you know decimated by his son and then that and and that's that in a way.

That's a triumphing, isn't it?

You know triumphing in that time period and then that frees spiritually frees them to be able to leave

egypt but then God, you know parts the sea for them because pharaoh

goes after them, right?

And so there's more theological things that go on there, but but that's what allows them to then leave

the decimated spiritual world of Egypt to be able to go into the promised land, but then

when they go into the promised land God's gonna have to do the same thing with the canaanite gods.

He's gonna have to Disarm them so to speak right?

He has to deal with the israelites as well because they want to go back to old ways and uh, Yeah

forsake god essentially.

Uh, yeah, and that's why in my novels.

I actually I have a novel on joshua, uh, joshua valiant caleb vigilant.

And then I have jezebel, uh, the harlequin of israel and in those novels I show this

spiritual battle going on with the archangels and the and the watchers as well as what's going on in the in

You know the earthly realm.

But I show that because the israelites continue to fall into idol worship

that enabled the strength of it's almost like Worshipping the false gods gives them

power and authority.

And and that's what allows them to stay those gods to stay rooted in that land of canaan.

Um until ultimately the messiah comes and does away with them.

So.

You know, so I do by the way, I write about that in my last novel of chronicles of nephilim jesus triumphant.

I try to depict what we just talked about here what I said about the messiah, you know, sort of.

Disinheriting all the other gods and taking the authority back like I tried to tell that story.

Theologically in my novel jesus triumphant and it's pretty wild.

Well what i'm looking at so i'm looking at your website here, you know in the book section.

So it's godowa .com forward slash books.

I mean you have what like 20 books uh 25 Or something like that.

So like what you're doing essentially is you're you're speaking sweepingly about things that

are delineated out very precisely in all of these books and that's what I love about this is like You know you

hearing you speak.

There's worlds of information just in sentences that you use and uh, You know, we're running out of time

already like to wrap this up.

Um, but I I thought occurred to me.

Go ahead.

Oh, I just said one of one of the things I do because of that I write companion books.

So i've got moses against the gods of egypt.

And then I have a companion book called the spiritual world of moses in egypt and I give all the scriptural and

historical research behind the novel because I respect the fact that a lot of christians want to go.

Hey, where are you?

You know, are you making this stuff up show me in the bible?

So I do that so you'll notice that most all the books have companion books with them.

Well, a lot of the conversation that we had in this particular episode was based on the spiritual world of moses and

uh, You know trying to walk through um the foundation upon which you wrote the novel the thought occurred to

me.

Uh, You know trying to reach out because I know that dr. Heiser is um, he's sick um, i'm not sure how he's

doing, uh lately, but you know, maybe maybe it'd be best if uh, We chatted with him.

Maybe you even joined the conversation and we could uh, parse out some of these some of these details.

Because I I like I said, I'd be happy to connect him up with you.

Oh, let's let's talk after the.

However, yeah.

Yeah, we will.

However, he yeah, he is uh dealing with cancer right now.

I don't know if that's an issue that he'll deal with now, but um in in the future.

You know if he when he puts this behind hopefully praise praise god, please.

Yeah, um, well then let's close.

I have uh, uh, another question and it's basically a question from our perspective, you know.

Um with.

Given everything that you said, you know in this in light of this What are we supposed to do?

Like how are we supposed to respond you.

You write in the the spiritual world of moses that there is a way that

Yahweh sort of expresses these things and that is that there is a war going on between gods and men.

You know, and so I guess the question is because as soon as I hear war I think of paul in second timothy.

What is it to you know be a good soldier of christ, you know.

And so like is this a war that is still going on today?

What we're describing or what you've been describing going on in the old testament.

It has the war shifted.

Is it changed?

Is it done?

Like are we in the middle of this war like what how should we take it?

Yeah, well my opinion is that um, I think that the war is over.

Uh, and and we are doing the cleanup operations.

Meaning getting people saved from their sin.

Is our job that's what the christians do and that's what the gospel of the kingdom is.

It spreads throughout the earth and it brings the saving knowledge of jesus christ, right?

That wouldn't be able to occur if jesus didn't disarm all those principalities see.

So what i'm saying is the war is actually technically over christ won it.

And now he's seated on the like, you know, think about anything Braveheart or game of thrones or whatever the king

that you know.

When a king ascends to the throne and he wipes out his enemies, you know, that's it he won but but there's always the you know, the

then you have to send out, you know, your uh, the christians then are sent out because because

Jesus is all the authority in heaven and earth.

There's no more authority invested in any other Principalities or powers jesus has all authority and that's

what enables us to be able to give the gospel.

So but I mean if you want to use uh, the notion of war you could say that, you know, we war against man's sinful nature and

because.

One thing I don't believe that some of the people who do believe in this they tend to attribute a lot of evil to To

these principalities and powers and demons and such and while I do believe that there might still be demons around.

Um, Uh, I don't think man needs watchers or demons to be evil.

Uh, it's very clear to me that the scripture says that evil comes out of our own nature.

And so in truth, um, you look at the world today and people say that looks like demonic evil to me.

And I understand why people will say that right whether it's islam or whatever.

But I don't think it needs to be it doesn't have to literally have demons because man is that evil that he would do.

Things like genocide mass rape and all the things that he does.

He doesn't need demons to do that.

And so we do battle against the evil of mankind and such but I know I don't believe.

The spiritual battle has been won by messiah by jesus and we've got that authority now.

So so that's that's how I see it.

Yeah.

Well, brian, thanks so much for joining us.

So is moses, uh against the gods of egypt.

Is this going to be.

Like is there going to be more in the series or is this it after that?

Yeah, it is.

No, no, it is a series and and I you know, i'm not sure exactly which one i'll do next but it's going to be great

uh, but um, it is a series, but they I they tend to be standalone novels, but

If you read the series there are there is an overarching link.

Sort of like when you watch an episodic tv like ncis or something, you know each episode you can watch in and of itself.

But if you watch the whole series, you're going to see an another storyline that's connecting them all.

So, uh, you can start with any novel, but if you like it, you'll you'll probably tell yourself Maybe i'll go back to the beginning to the beginning

and see how it flows or whatever.

Or you can start in the middle and just read from there.

Uh, that's the great thing about them.

So they're standalone novels, but they are connected in a bigger Arc of a picture and there

will be more.

Well, I can't wait, uh, brian godowa hollywood screenwriter, uh author of a number of

books that you absolutely need to own.

If you're interested in theology and Apologetics or if you love great action novels, you know stories set in biblical times

pertaining to eschatology theology things of that nature for all things godowa.

Go to godowa g -o -d -a -w -a.

Dot com.

But brian, thanks so much for joining me today.

Thanks for having me nate.