A Mega Size Dividing Line: Matthew Vines, NT Wright, Yusuf Ismail, and More

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:32

Well greetings and welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday back in the saddle for this week anyways

00:39

Only for this week will be gone again next week and then sanity

00:47

Returns and we'll be here for most of August. I'm not sure if it's sane actually to be in Phoenix during August, but anyway, that's where we will we will be have a lot to get to today

01:00

We'll definitely be going past our normal time Probably looking at at least a jumbo edition if not more we have a

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Lot to get to but I'm not sure how much I'll be able to remember to get to actually since I didn't write it all down Wanted to begin the program today as I have announced on Facebook before I get to that I'm well aware of the of the

01:28

Trending news today concerning the undercover video of the

01:33

Planned Parenthood Official I just saw

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Planned Parenthood's response their written response. I just read that and I tweeted out to them having read it

01:47

Dear Planned Parenthood Goebbels just called he wants his propaganda back

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What do you expect if you know anything about the history of Planned Parenthood if you know anything about its founder to find one of their officials

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Sipping wine and eating a Caesar salad over discussing sales of body parts is not overly

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Shocking to be honest with you. I mean, it's absolutely disgusting, but Planned Parenthood has always been absolutely disgusting.

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So If it'll help in getting them defunded if it'll help you know, but I'm not sure how long the attention span of most

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American voters is today and so I Don't know.

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I don't know. Maybe if we get a You know a comedian to do something about it

02:44

Then you know the younger generation would listen, but but I'm not gonna be talking about that today

02:49

Everyone has seen the video and it is truly Well, almost everyone

02:56

Has seen the video. I won't mention anybody who hasn't actually seen the video, but there are people

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Who actually have not seen the video yet, which is just amazing. But anyway have things to get to and Over the weekend,

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I believe it came out on the 10th Someone sent me a tweet with a link

03:21

To a Well, I don't even know where this was it was it it was a Google but Google's everywhere now,

03:27

I mean Google is Skynet, we just got the name wrong.

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Who would ever thought that Google would nuke all of humanity, but This was a

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Google video so at some kind of for some reason Google hasn't called me To talk about stuff

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For I don't understand why I mean they certainly know where I am quite pretty much at all times and but this was at a

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Google get -together and Matthew Vines, of course was invited to be special guest because Matthew Vines is special and Everyone like Matthew Vines is now special because the

04:09

Supreme Court said so at least that's how people are thinking and I don't even know when it was recorded to be perfectly honest with you.

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It seems to be rather recent but it does strike me that there is a

04:25

Very discernible shift in The Behavior speech attitude of the leaders of the homo movement

04:41

Represented by how Vines spoke in this particular situation where he was asked a question by an audience member

04:52

About whether he would debate me now We have placed the transcript of his comments on Facebook So you can follow along there, but if you haven't seen it, we will listen to it first in its entire context and Then we will

05:11

Go back through it and respond point by point to what? Mr. Vines is saying now

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I would address Matthew directly, but it's pretty obvious to me that He's now beyond Well as he says going in the gutter with someone like me and It would be helpful it would have been helpful if before Watching this response you actually had the time to listen through the response that he's referring to in His comments, which was my four -hour response to his one -hour presentation.

05:51

Hence. It was five hours long and total Which interestingly enough

05:58

When I first posted it Matthew Vines response was well

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We will debate once my book comes out and I will respond in my book there was nothing initially about all

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I I'm just not gonna waste my time. I'm not gonna roll in the gutter with people like you.

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You're just so over -the -top You're so nasty. That's that's not what it was back then But now that he has become the media darling

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Now that he gets all the same softball questions thrown at him that they do on CNN and things like that He seems to be believing his own press now and so Objections that he never voiced before his book came out

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Never voiced before his book came out now all of a sudden I'm just terrible horrible and nasty and mean and unloving and all the rest of stuff.

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And all I do is say that Homosexuals are like people who want to have sex with dogs.

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That's what he says now, by the way we I Want to thank the folks in our chat channel because I Just yesterday while traveling asked if Folks there would take time to listen once again to everything that I said in that very lengthy response

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And a couple folks took the time to do so and I asked what did I say about dogs in?

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that and The fact matter is I I didn't I think my dogs

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I there a couple times bestiality did come up because That's in Leviticus 18 sort of hard to avoid that I once did say something about I might want to start a family with my

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German Shepherd, but that doesn't that's not gonna work because of the species issue

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But anyone who's actually listened to what I said Knows that how

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Matthew Vines is going to represent it here Demonstrates that he does not believe that his audience will ever check out what he says

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There's there's been a change In Vines is thinking and he's come to realize that he can say pretty much anything he wants and His fans will believe whatever he says and They're not going to check him out.

08:28

They're not going to go and and say I wonder if what he's saying is accurate So what he's just chosen to do in this response aside from being just you know

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If you reversed the roles here, and I said about Matthew Vines What he said about me?

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I'm not gonna respond to Matthew Vines because I'm not gonna I'm not gonna roll in the gutter with someone like him I'd never hear the end of it.

08:54

I Mean it would just be if oh, you're just so horrible and unloving but he can say that Because he's a homosexual and homosexuals can say anything homosexuals want to say

09:06

They're the persecuted minority so They can be mean and nasty and they can be deceptive and and and the whole nine yards and misrepresent everybody.

09:17

I mean I Can guarantee you he's never played my response for his audiences and gone through it

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I played everything he said and Respond to every word. He said in his presentation

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Yeah, that's that's because we approach this as an issue of truth as an issue of life

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Desirous that people would know the truth that they would escape the clutches of death That's not

09:46

Matthew Vines motivation because Matthew Vines is not a Christian he claims to be one but he's a false teacher and His motivations come out very clearly here when a

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Christian when a person who claims to be a Christian has to grossly misrepresent

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The people that they are disagreeing with well We're supposed to be followers of him.

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Who is the truth? and So Matthew Vines knows that he could never survive a debate against any knowledgeable opponent he's a 25 year old college dropout who is

10:21

Borrowing all of his arguments from other people Mainly from James Brownson, but but others he's he's you know,

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I mean when he first did his first video Brownson hadn't published yet So there's differences now, you know, so he's updated stuff, but he's borrowing from everybody else

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He doesn't have the ability to do original work He's getting this from all these other places.

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And so he knows he could never survive that debate and So he has to find a way to excuse

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Making the claims he does just like David Gushing Making the claims that he does without actually then having to back it up so he's asked about why he won't debate and Like I said, if you if you listened and we have around the main main webpage right at a omen org

11:09

Get it while you can Download the review listen to it and then listen to his representation and go

11:18

Wow, there's a big disconnect there and it's called dishonesty but think about what is now allowing him to do what he couldn't do just a few years ago and I suggest to you the difference is what has happened just over the past few months and especially in regards to Now the interactions that have been had with him in regards to the

11:44

Supreme Court decision, so let's let's take a listen to what What was said here here we go

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And yeah, that's that's really great. Um in terms of furthering that dialogue

11:59

James White has offered to debate with you several times. I was curious what the reasons are that that hasn't happened

12:05

Yeah, so when I posted my initial talk three years ago There was a

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Southern Baptist minister in Phoenix who recorded a four -hour

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Rebuttal podcast rebuttal to my talk and well

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So here's what I would say. I when I'm thinking about Christians who disagree with me on this topic

12:29

They lie along a spectrum or rather Christians who don't vocally agree with me on this topic They lie along a spectrum.

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You have a minority of people who are silent sympathizers who may not fully agree with me who may

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May not but those are the people who really if you reach them with these arguments It's like you've liberated them and they finally like feel free to Express their beliefs and they can become really passionate advocates.

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Then there are a lot of people in the middle I'd say the majority of people in the middle who passively hold Negative beliefs, but I would call non affirming beliefs about same -sex relationships and Who truly believe those things but don't think about it a ton would never write a letter to the editor about it would never call

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Up a radio show about it. That's where my dad was. Then you have a substantial minority of people who

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I would say are deeply entrenched and passionate about their opposition And those people tend to be the most established people in any given church community, especially the more conservative churches

13:26

They tend to make institutional change very difficult because they will threaten to pull their financial giving from a church if it shifts at all on the topic and So what

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I'm trying to do and they also give the impression to a lot of people that everyone in the community Not only shares their belief but also shares that passion with which they hold their belief because no one else is actually saying anything

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So they kind of have the megaphone When I'm engaging people on this topic I am most interested in engaging the people who are the silent sympathizers and the people in the middle

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Because most people who are in that place of entrenched passionate opposition Cannot be reached

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Right now. I don't ever I try never to write people off entirely but I do postpone people and I will postpone engagement with some people because the way that they think and talk about these topics is so unhelpful and so devoid of any kind of relational

14:27

Care or understanding that I don't that there it's not really worth my energy. So James White I mean he compared being gay to wanting to have sex with dogs and things that are so absurd and so offensive and He was so passionate about it and saw no reason, you know talked about Comparisons to pedophilia and said that only, you know, 1 % of gay people actually want monogamy

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I don't know where he got that statistic and like and and there I mean it was it was a highly vitriolic

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Four hours and honestly, that's not worth my time because there are so many people who are worth my time and who are thoughtful and kind and There are some people who are truly vitriolic and who are not kind are not compassionate

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And I am not like my time is worth so much more than Like wasting it going down into a gutter with people who want to compare me to like people who want to have sex with dogs so that's the reason why

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I haven't engaged James White because he's not worth engaging, but There are many people who are worth engaging.

15:35

So Tim Keller is a pastor from New York pretty well -known pastor

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Evangelical pastor who I've learned a lot from I think he's a great writer and preacher He just reviewed my book a couple weeks ago and I didn't really

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I mean, you know, it was a negative review which wasn't surprising because I know what he thinks about this topic But I really appreciated that he did because that he reviewed my book with a tone of civility.

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He didn't say horrendous things about gay people and He was focusing on my actual arguments and in a way that was a bit more a lot more level -headed

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So that allowed me, you know I wrote a response to it About things that I agreed with and a lot of things

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I didn't agree with and thought that he actually misrepresented in my book But through that process that is what opens the door to genuine like conversation

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It doesn't mean that he is going to agree with me anytime soon, but I want to focus on people who are engaging thoughtfully

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And so and there are enough of them like I can spend all my time doing that There you go.

16:44

There's the entirety now again remember We played the whole question and answer and About it to have its own context

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Just as we played his entire one hour video presentation a few years ago when it came out

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You'll notice there were no direct quotations from me Made by Matthew Vines to my knowledge.

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He has never done that and remember He acknowledged the response

17:16

For years and instead of saying I You're a waste of my time

17:24

That was vitriolic. That was horrific instead. What he said was I'll respond to it in my book and Well, my book comes out so now we have two completely different stories for coming from the same person and What has changed?

17:40

Well, the context of our society has changed and therefore Matthew Vines is

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Recollection of things has changed now, of course, that's dishonest and it's hypocritical but False teachers who are trying to overthrow the ones for all delivered the

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Saints faith tend upon examination to Fall into those categories basically

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So let's let's go back and we'll do what what Matthew can't do and we will

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Let him speak stop Respond now people would love to see this happening live and one side's willing to do that and one side has accurately represented the other side

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The other side is the one that doesn't want to do that because they recognize their position is indefensible

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And now of course even more so because Matthew does know you can start tell a couple places

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Like when he started talking about you know comparing us to having sex with dogs When he did that you can just you can hear the voice of a person who knows he's lying who knows that he's being untruthful and That's exactly what is is going on here.

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So let's let's listen to what he has to say and Yeah, that's that's really great.

19:00

Um in terms of furthering that dialogue James White has offered to debate with you several times.

19:07

I was curious what the reasons are that that hasn't happened Yeah, so when I posted my initial talk three years ago, there was a

19:15

Southern Baptist Um of course, I Suppose the fact that there was a time when

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I was a Southern Baptist minister that that might be enough But that time was before Matthew was born

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So I I am NOT a Southern Baptist I am a Reformed Baptist but when you're an ultra liberal

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Presbyterian Uh all Baptists are just sort of Lumped into one big thing,

19:48

I guess It does say a little bit something about the accuracy of you know, his research, but he hasn't done any research

19:56

He's not interested in doing research about me because I don't matter. I'm in the gutter. I'm irrelevant

20:02

Just just keep that in mind whenever they're talking about whenever he's talking about. Well, he's not really relational, you know, he's just not really nice He's in the gutter, you know, there you go, mm -hmm there in Phoenix who recorded a four -hour

20:19

Rebuttal To um rebuttal Yeah, it was a rebuttal and if you've listened to it, which you said you did then you would know

20:30

I played every single comment you made and then responded to every one of your arguments

20:36

I remember later on he says well, you know Tim Keller. He he responds to the arguments in my book

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The fact the matter is you've never presented a single argument that I didn't respond to and Anyone again who's heard that knows the truth.

20:55

So why misrepresent it? Why not? Tell them well, he you know

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Did a four -hour response point by point every single thing that I said and played the entirety of my presentation for his audience

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That would have been the truthful statement, but that doesn't you know? That's that's like the mainstream media actually covering the

21:17

Planned Parenthood thing or the mainstream media Actually covering the murder of the woman over was it San Francisco or something like that in San Francisco, you know

21:24

They have a paradigm that they want to put out there. They have a story they want to put out there It doesn't fit, you know cover it, you know,

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I think I retweeted somebody today Journalism is covering difficult stories with a pillow long enough to holding them down till they stop moving something along those lines, that's that's journalism today and so that would have been the honest thing to say but that doesn't fit the the the story the storyline that Matthew wants to present a talk and well

21:57

So here's what I would say I when I'm thinking about Christians who disagree with me on this topic

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They lie along a spectrum or rather Christians who don't vocally agree with me on this topic They lie along a spectrum

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You have a minority of people who are silent sympathizers who may not fully agree with me who may may not

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But those are the people who really if you reach them with these arguments It's like you've liberated them and they finally like feel free to express now, please notice

22:23

What is what is what did he just say reach them with these what? These are arguments. He says he's putting forth arguments, so Arguments should be examined

22:38

Remember, this is a man who? Has in the past claimed to train

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Christians to go into our churches into quote -unquote non -affirming churches, which means believing churches for the past 2 ,000 years and change our thinking with Good arguments now, what would be the best way to demonstrate you have good arguments?

23:06

Are they to present them only the people who already agree with those arguments or the people who don't agree with those arguments?

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Seems pretty obvious to me But in our upside -down topsy -turvy world

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This is now what is being presented Their beliefs and they can become really passionate advocates then there are a lot of people in the middle

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I'd say the majority of people in the middle who passively hold negative non -affirming beliefs about same -sex relationships and Who truly believe those things but don't think about it a ton would never write a letter to the editor about it would never call

23:44

Up a radio show about it. That's where my dad was then you have a substantial minority of people who

23:50

I would say are Deeply entrenched and passionate about their opposition And those people tend to be the most established people in any given church community, especially the more conservative churches they tend to make institutional change very difficult because they will threaten to Pull their financial giving from a church if it shifts at all on the topic

24:10

And so what I'm trying to do and they also give the impression to now. No, no, they're passionate and They won't give money

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How about they have really strong arguments that I well know in the depth of my soul.

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I cannot refute How about how about that? Because I think that's really what's going on with Matthew Matthew knows

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That the other side has arguments that he cannot refute they've been presented to him and So he's now he's a smart young man

24:49

He's finding ways to excuse Having to deal with the refutation of his own arguments while continuing to present them knowing that they can be refuted

25:01

So he doesn't even doesn't even mention, you know, well, they'll threaten to pull funny These are these are the they're the people in charge and la la la la la.

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Yeah, how about they are passionately convinced of The position that the

25:16

Christian Church has held on this issue since its inception How about that and they they actually take the time to read my books book singular listen to my videos and have responded to those things rather fully in fact on a level that I simply can't deal with and So I need to come up with some way of dealing with this and this is this is how

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I do it Well that everyone in the community not only shares their belief But also shares that passion with which they hold their belief because no one else is actually saying anything

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So they kind of have the megaphone when I'm engaging people in this topic I am most interested in engaging the people who are the silent sympathizers and the people in the middle

25:58

Because most people who are in that place of entrenched passion opposition Cannot be reached

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Right now. I don't ever okay. All right Are you?

26:13

Passionate and entrenched in your position again. Why am I why am I bothering to address? You're not gonna watch this is he?

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Passionately entrenched in his position obviously he is But he doesn't want to acknowledge the existence of somebody on the other side

26:32

Because then he'd have to then the obvious thing would be that our side shouldn't bother to engage at all with him and yet That's the whole thing.

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He wants to do That's how he's gotten his his attention is by saying you you must deal with you must listen to us

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But you see I think part of this is also the homosexual mindset Remember uber rights?

26:54

You must celebrate who I am and what I do Um, we are special you are not

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We are special you are not You're normal. You're regular We're we're specially gifted.

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I mean that is that not what we are hearing every single day now Is that not what is being

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Shoved into our face every single day is we're special you're not Our rights are more important than your rights.

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You will celebrate us um That's what that's what we're hearing here

27:24

Yes, can I interject here that um now on his point about the spectrum that went over real well.

27:30

Yeah, I know uh his point about the spectrum you have commented about You're debating audiences numerous occasions and you point out that on the one hand

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You've got the opposition the hardcore and on the other hand You've got your own following the hardcore and there's the group in the middle

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And you're not you're there knowing that your opponent is hardcore. He's Entrenched in that position and your point is to talk to those in the middle

28:00

You understand the spectrum of the audience he just dismissed an entire spectrum of the audience

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That he won't even have an interaction with and of course if he was at all convinced of the weight of his arguments

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Then he would want If he actually thought his arguments were good arguments and they would survive against me

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Uh, he would want to debate me To demonstrate that not only for the people on his side, but for the people on my side as well

28:29

You see one of the things that has bothered me in trying in in even going back and forth on twitter with matthew is

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We have completely different reasons for doing what we do Um, he is not

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The reason why i'm responding to him It's not about him It's about something so much bigger than either one of us, but for him it's all about him

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So You have to be nice to me It's my time It's it's what's worth me doing.

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It's all me me me me me and that's why if you even talk about Bestiality pedophilia incest in other words if you go to leviticus 18 look at the holiness code

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And talk about what all these sins are about and how they're all connected in attacking the imago dei

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It doesn't matter That you're dealing with the bible and he's not He will be offended because it's all about him

29:32

Now there's all sorts of stuff in what he said here That if I were interested, it was all about me.

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I would just be massively offended But i'll be honest with you.

29:44

I don't care Because it's not about me. Yes. He's being mean. Yes. He's being disrespectful.

29:50

Yes. He's being a hypocrite So what? big deal the issue

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And how people respond to that's that's what's important. So we have completely different motivations what we do

30:03

Completely different motivations and you see in the touchy -feely all emotions. I'm just a little kid millennial generation

30:12

I don't want to grow up. I don't want to become an adult Um, I I just want to do me me me stuff uh amongst those folks

30:22

He looks like the nice guy because it's all about him Rather than recognizing. You know what?

30:28

Um, that's really immature and that really isn't going to promote

30:36

Human flourishing. Let's use that term. Let's borrow a a Molarism for the moment but very very different motivations for what we're doing

30:43

I try never to write people off entirely But I do postpone people and I will postpone engagement with some people because the way that they think and talk about these topics

30:53

Is so unhelpful and so devoid of any kind of relational um care or understanding

31:04

Unhelpful and devoid of relational care and understanding

31:10

Uh, that's that's the terminology Yeah, i've got it right here so devoid of any kind of relational care understanding

31:17

Uh that I don't think they're really not worth my energy is what he's going to say just now so in other words, he gets to define and then interpret you and your uh reasons for doing things

31:33

And so if you don't fit his paradigm, well, you're just not worth his energy Again, it's all matthew vines.

31:40

It's all about me And there is a direct connection here to homosexualism

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Because what? Fundamentally is the error of homosexual attraction

31:54

It's narcissistic. It's falling in love with the mirror image It's more me my me me me

32:01

That's where the immaturity is I mean when we were boys At seven years of age.

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You just wanted to play with other boys. You didn't want to play with girls They had cooties um Besides someone were growing faster than we were and sometimes they could outrun you and so that was a bad thing.

32:17

So Um, but they couldn't throw like you could And no girl has ever been able to make

32:24

Battle noises or any other kind of sound effects like guys can We we have and it's it's an irrefutable point.

32:32

There's absolutely no question that that's an irrefutable point I mean By the time you're seven years of age, you can make the sound of machine gun uh, you know prop propeller airplanes dive bombing stuff and girls

32:46

It's just I can't do it. So, um, but you see then something happened And we grew up And we grew out of that And that's not something that's happened in the homosexual experience and so there is a

33:04

Self -focus there is a me me me me me That's what you have um

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And that's what you're hearing here That I don't that that's not really worth my energy. So james white and his talk.

33:21

I mean he compared Being gay to wanting to have sex with dogs and things

33:28

Um, that's just a lie Okay, I mean it's out there Um I had folks go through it and specifically send me every reference um whatsoever to the subject of bestiality and I I'm, sorry, but it's

33:50

The reality is it's a lie and I think I don't know just looking at his face the way that he's sort of um

34:00

Looking at things, um He knows it's a lie. He knows he's trying to have to promote something here.

34:07

Let me let me give you Um every statement

34:14

In my entire presentation That could even be remotely connected to anything.

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He's saying here. All right, and I again I I want to thank Uh the folks in channel that listened

34:27

Um Part one 23 minutes 50 seconds in I want to be married to my german shepherd

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And I want to start a family with my german shepherd I was talking about the impossibility of defining families any way

34:39

I want to do so Didn't say anything about sex with german shepherds or dogs

34:45

Uh 35 45. How about a how about high quality bestiality versus low quality bestiality?

34:53

and again, the issue was comparing the idea of uh there being

34:59

Some kind of a better form of a sin versus a lesser form of a sin

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And i'm drawing again from the biblical holiness code

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Which specifically in leviticus 18 Rather painstakingly goes through a number of sins which includes all sorts of forms of incest

35:26

Homosexuality and bestiality. It's right there. It's been there for 3400 years approximately um, so Do forgive me for providing biblical

35:42

Answers to your biblical claims, but again, he can get away with this because he knows no one's gonna check him out

35:48

Not not anybody he cares about he doesn't care about you and me Because he knows he knows we know

35:54

Huh, he knows we know he's got to go for the ignorant people He can't go with people already know which tells me he knows his arguments are not going to work uh in part two at 16 minutes 30 the exchanging of natural for what is against nature creatures not only

36:09

Okay Okay, the exchanging of what's natural for is against nature. Yeah, that's not really that's not really

36:15

I mean It's romans one but and then there were two others In part one at 154 55 prohibitions against bestiality

36:24

Just mentioned it leviticus and at 28 to 28 30 The commandment against bestiality is repeated more often than the commandment

36:32

Against homosexuality in response to vine's direct bestiality assertion I'm, not sure who was saying that because obviously the commandment against bestiality

36:44

Is not repeated more often than the commandment against homosexuality at least in the new testament I'm, not sure what the context was there

36:49

But the point is there is nothing about anyone desiring to have sex with dogs being compared to homosexuals

36:58

Uh, the closest thing is I can't have a family with a german shepherd. I don't even have a trip Did I still have a german shepherd back then?

37:05

but I don't know. Maybe I well, we had a german shepherd, but and she died only a few years ago

37:11

So it's possible. It's possible. Maybe that's where I came with anyways um, so The the whole thing's bogus.

37:18

I mean, I mean this is this is clearly an attempt to misrepresent the other side

37:27

Because he's not gonna he's not gonna sit there and say, you know He was really passionate but he he responded to every single

37:36

Element of my argumentation. He talked about toeva. He went through the holiness code.

37:41

He went through romans one He talked about arsonic coites. He went into the original language. That's not gonna fit the dismissive

37:50

Disrespectful Marginalization paradigm that he wants to put out so Why why tell the truth when a lie is going to work just as well and in fact given

38:05

The context of our society today a lie is actually going to work better You know why bother so there you go

38:12

So absurd and so offensive and he was so passionate about it and saw no reason, you know talked about Comparisons to pedophilia and said that only you know one okay

38:27

Comparisons to pedophilia. What do you mean by that? I mean, are you saying that it is inappropriate?

38:37

To point out the fact the reality that this very day

38:43

There are a growing number of articles appearing in scholarly works identifying pedophilia as a

38:54

Sexual orientation that there is an entire movement there the the German did

39:00

I have it in here? Let me see real quick if I if I save this The German The nation of Germany is

39:16

Advertising. Yeah, it's not here. I thought I had saved it to to Evernote is is doing an advertisement they've they've started a private treatment program for people who experience sexual desire for young for young folks for pedophiles and You can get free help without being turned over to the police and The whole idea behind it is it's a sexual orientation.

39:51

So all it will take will be a few more articles one good Hollywood movie and Voila It's a and kick and and are we wrong are

40:05

To go, huh, you take this and then you look at Oregon Which is now saying that if a 15 year old

40:17

Will come to not their parents but to the government and Want a sex change operation the government will pay for it without notifying the parents

40:35

Hmm you can't get in a tanning bed at 15 in Oregon, but you can change your sex and If you can change your sex at 15

40:49

Without talking to your parents about it What is the logical or rational reason for saying you cannot engage in sex at 15?

41:02

Seems to be coming together For some odd strange reason can't talk about that Yet see what you need to understand folks is that for the

41:12

Matthew Vines of the world? you can't talk about anything that demonstrates that they're what they're pushing for is destructive of human culture in life

41:23

You just can't talk about those things or you'll be non nice and if anyone's not nice Then you shouldn't listen to them

41:32

Now is it nice to do what he's doing here I Mean, I just asked all you

41:38

Millennials that are just so into your emotions and feelings just logically speaking for a moment

41:43

Is this nice? Is it nice to do this? Is it is it nice to to shut down?

41:52

Truthful conversation by appealing to emotions and talking about people not being night. Is that nice? well,

42:00

I leave that to you to To think about kind of gay people actually want monogamy.

42:08

I don't know where he got that statistic. I Think what he's talking about there and I don't remember that that far back

42:17

I I think this is something that's been maybe people have reported to him something since then but Simply looking at the percentage of self identifying homosexuals

42:31

Remember what's the big theme that Matthew Vines and James Brownson and all the quote -unquote, you know,

42:40

David Gushy all the allies and some stuff. Yeah, what's the line? Loving committed and what's the third term?

42:49

Monogamous Homosexual lifelong Homosexual relationships, isn't that the phrase?

42:58

what percentage of The male homosexual community is

43:07

Celibate until quote -unquote marriage and Desires that kind of Interaction just just looking at the numbers regarding the sexual activities of male homosexuals

43:25

What percentage Matthew? Again why am I bothering? He's not gonna listen.

43:30

He doesn't need to anymore From his perspective. They've already won this this battle.

43:36

It's already done What percentage? I don't even you know, we've we went right

43:46

I do remember going through If it wasn't during that it was shortly after I Remember going through that section in Michael Brown's book a queer thing happened to America Where you provide a lot of information there've been a few studies have come out since then

44:05

But the numbers Speak for themselves when homosexuals honestly speak about themselves, especially males the numbers are a little bit different for females, but especially for males there is a

44:24

Tremendous amount of promiscuity Which you never hear these guys talking about I don't I Don't hear

44:31

I'm talking about I don't hear these quote -unquote gay Christians pointing these things out they supposed to if they're

44:39

But yeah, I don't you just took their own rhetoric. You'd think they're those the most monogamous people on the planet from what they say

44:46

Yeah, and and there Was a highly vitriolic four hours and honestly, that's not worth my time

44:54

Okay, we may make this a Soundbite You know, maybe we can attach it at the end, you know of the you know

45:06

Do a little something record it put at the end and say now if what you just listened to Helped you to understand what the issues were if you appreciate the amount of time is invested in it, please note that Years after this was recorded years after Matthew Vines said he'd respond to it in the book and that he would debate when the book came out and so on so forth

45:30

Listen to what he says now compare Matthew Vines 2015 with Matthew Vines 2013 and What changed?

45:43

My presentation didn't change during that time period But the culture has changed and now

45:50

Matthew Vines is deciding to well if you can revise the history of Christianity If you can revise the Bible itself, why not revise this?

45:58

It's obviously worked It works with his audience. So hey, let's let's go for it, right?

46:06

because there are so many people who are worth my time and who are thoughtful and kind and There are some people who are remember thoughtful and kind Thoughtful and kind so if you disagree with him, you're not kind and If you refute his arguments, you must not be thoughtful all based upon the assumption

46:30

He's at Google. Do you think anybody at Google is actually gonna take five hours? To listen to that interaction five hours listen to the gushy interaction

46:40

You can you know, as long as you're assuming that your audience has a very very

46:45

You know, you're talking about low information audience now Low in from a

46:52

Lil's low information listeners or Liv's low information viewers, whatever you want to call them.

46:57

That's the assumption here I mean, this is really disrespectful to the audience anytime you misrepresent something you're being disrespectful the audience, but this is over -the -top

47:08

Really vitriolic and who are not kind are not compassionate and I am not like my time is worth so much more than Like wasting it going down into a gutter with people who want to compare me to like people who want to have sex with dogs

47:23

So To do what he said he would do on Twitter is to go down in the gutter

47:32

Which one is it? Who can tell I Sounds like we're listening to a politician doesn't it?

47:41

You know, didn't you say back in 2012? yeah, but that was 2012 and You know, maybe he's already deleted all of his tweets from his server, so that's not worried by him or so That's the reason why

47:58

I haven't engaged James White because he's not worth engaging But not worth it. There are many people who are worth engaging.

48:04

So Tim Keller is a pastor from New York pretty well -known pastor

48:10

Evangelical pastor who I've learned a lot from I think he's a great writer and preacher He just reviewed my book a couple weeks ago and I didn't really

48:21

I mean, you know, it was a negative review which wasn't surprising because I know what he thinks about this topic But I really appreciated that he did because that he reviewed my book with a tone of civility.

48:32

He didn't say horrendous things about gay people and He was focusing on my actual arguments and in a way that was a bit more a lot more level -headed

48:45

So that allowed me, you know I wrote a response to it About things that I agreed with and a lot of things

48:51

I didn't agree with and thought that he actually misrepresented in my book But through that process that is what opens the door to general to genuine like conversation

49:01

It doesn't mean that he now again remember and and this go back on the blog search for Matthew Vines name

49:07

You'll see the tweets that went back and forth between us from his perspective Genuine conversation begins with my admitting his claims to being a gay

49:20

Christian if I won't admit that if I won't start by conceding the debate

49:27

Then it's not a genuine conversation that's that's that's how simplistic and and Childish This position really is but but that's the nature of the position you have to Admit that I I am what

49:45

I claim that I am you have to give me you have to celebrate me before We will then discuss any of this stuff that's

49:54

You know debates wouldn't happen if if that was if that was how you had to do things, but again

50:04

We do things for very different reasons, mr. Vines and myself to agree with me anytime soon

50:10

But I want to focus on people who are engaging thoughtfully And so and there are enough of them like I can spend all my time doing that.

50:19

So there you go. There's there's Matthew Vines and He's right he can he can he can find folks to engage with Who will never challenge him

50:34

Who will never point out his errors who will never point out his reliance upon sources that he cannot verify one way or the other

50:44

Who will never hold his feet to the fire for the claims that he makes he can spend all of his time on CNN and places like that where he will never ever ever be challenged.

50:57

He most definitely can do that. Most people do But as a Christian I can't do that and once again, it just simply demonstrates the vast difference between Matthew Vines and myself so I Know he's not gonna watch this but if You have people who see this or You know, he puts it in writing here.

51:24

They're very put portions of it in in writing in some of the comments. He's made Maybe you can direct him to this they can hear the other side of the story

51:32

They can listen to the review and then they'll join the chorus of many others. It would say man It would be so helpful to hear this debated

51:43

Because up if it's not debated Then it's just one side says this the other side says that and oh

51:49

I'd love to hear the two sides have to discuss it and to do so under Under control with control so that you don't have one side beating up the other side just simply by having all the time to themselves

52:01

You know moderated that would be so useless. The only way that we can really see how these arguments are gonna play out

52:08

One side wants it. The other side does not and I think this gives you a very good picture of Why the other side doesn't want it because they know they could never survive it and Secondly because now they don't feel there's any

52:27

Positive there was a time in the past. There might have been something just simply to gain the audience gain some respectability but hey

52:36

Thanks to Justice Kennedy. We don't have to worry about that anymore because by the very language of Of His Again I The term decision is not right it that that assumes something.

52:54

It did not happen But by the language that he used in writing what he wrote

53:01

He has identified the historic Christian position as bigotry, so The wicked strut about much and when what is vile is honored amongst men

53:18

But there you go, that's that's my response to To Matthew vines and his comments at Google and again,

53:29

I appreciate the Transcript that we have placed on on Facebook and There's my response hope it's hope it's useful to you.

53:40

All right now Yeah Someone in channel who

53:47

I won't mention for other reasons says did I hear Matthew vines called dr. White a Southern Baptist pastor in Phoenix.

53:52

That's offensive Yeah to a lot of people it would be a lot of people would be

54:02

Okay Let's I mentioned on Facebook we were going to absolutely

54:13

Try to see if we could destroy the clutch of the program now, I'm not sure where the clutch is installed

54:21

But we're gonna see just how wide a range of topics we could get to and So I announced three

54:30

I might You know, I'll see how the time is here and Might do some more after this.

54:39

We'll see. We'll see But this is gonna be a wide -ranging

54:46

Series of of topics big -time. I have another video to play and It's sort of hard for me to imagine a

55:02

Bigger difference between the

55:10

Level of scholarship of who I'm going to be disagreeing with now and Disagree with Matthew vines because Matthew vines does not have any level of scholarship again

55:24

When you're borrowing your arguments from everybody else, there you go I Was sent a link to this clip a few weeks ago

55:35

I'm not sure exactly when and I'm sorry that I don't remember who sent it to me Downloaded it thought yeah, maybe something to mm -hmm.

55:43

Maybe something worth doing and by the time I get around to it, I I Couldn't even go back to figure out who sent it to me.

55:51

So I apologize. I can't go. Hey, thank you to whoever some of you will remember a

56:00

Discussion That took place on the unbelievable unbelievable radio broadcast between myself and Dr.

56:12

Professor Bishop NT Wright or as he wants to be called Tom we discussed in very short form some of his well unique views on the concept of justification and as I said at the time

56:33

NT Wright is a Brilliant brilliant man. I mean there is no question of the man's breadth of knowledge but to be honest with you, it's also painfully obvious that NT Wright sort of suffers from the same issue that Bart Ehrman suffers from and That is he sort of believes his own press and There are certain scholars that believe that they are so far above anybody else

57:14

That they're willing to go out on limbs that others would not be willing to go out on and So the result is that that right

57:31

Obviously, I do not believe that NT Wright is balanced. I don't believe Wright is right on certain things he has brilliant insights in other areas and as Mentioned in the weeks after our encounter.

57:46

I do find a lot of criticisms of some of the things that he says to be themselves Showing not as much understanding of where he's coming from as Should be should be there but the the paradigm that he enforces upon the

58:04

New Testament that ends up requiring him to adopt some rather unusual translations of Certain texts that go against all other translations.

58:14

He doesn't he doesn't mind saying yeah, everybody but me has been wrong about this He didn't mind saying that That paradigm which includes the

58:24

I think of major overemphasis upon exile themes and a major under emphasis upon soteriology

58:38

Coupled with a overemphasis upon ethnic Israel Few things like that you put all together and you get what we're about to listen to and that is

58:51

He's asked a simple question about Predestination election in the

58:56

New Testament Now I understand he's giving a brief response and sometimes

59:05

When You're asked to give a brief response I've been asked to give brief responses to very difficult questions before that to be honest with you when

59:13

I got done I felt like saying well, man, that was a waste of time Because you really can't answer that question in a brief amount of time and do so Properly, I had somebody tell me that I used the term meaningfully way too often yesterday

59:29

So I'm gonna try to come up with something else at least for a week or two Um So Listen to his reply here

59:41

At least now many times. This is not now. I'm not denying. There's not a mystery here Almost sounds Lutheran for a second, but he gets a little

59:48

Bardian for a while and and invokes a little mystery and Just just listen for yourself and go hmm, don't you think that someone who's written what an 1 ,800 page book on Paul might be able to Be a little more clear or is it really his viewpoint that you can't be

01:00:19

You'll see okay, here we go. We're gonna Launch off. Okay.

01:00:25

So you're asking dr. Wright? What does he think Paul means when he uses the language like election? Election chosen predestination

01:00:34

Okay, there's three passages in particular. There's Romans 8 28 following and those who are called according to his purpose

01:00:42

And then he talks he goes into that great riff about those he predestined he also called those he called he also justified those he

01:00:49

Justified he also glorified Let's just take that one for a minute that is a

01:00:56

Sharp close -up compressed telling of the story of Israel as the chosen people whose identity and destiny is then

01:01:06

Brought into sharp focus on Jesus and in a sense Jesus is the one chosen one

01:01:12

This sounds very party and I don't know if some of you studied Karl Barth But at this point it would be going with But then that identity is shared with all those who are in Christ and he isn't

01:01:24

Surprisingly talking primarily there about Salvation he's talking primarily about the way

01:01:31

God is healing the whole creation. There's a danger. See what has happened in so many Theological circles over the years is that people have come to the texts assuming that it's really saying how do we get to heaven?

01:01:44

And what's the mechanism and how does that work? And if you do that interestingly many exegetes will more or less skip over Romans 8 18 through 20 6 -7 ish which is about the renewing of creation when humans are glorified ie put in charge

01:01:59

That's the actual subject of the of the passage That's not to say there isn't a mystery there

01:02:04

But Paul isn't addressing it and we have to be a bit careful about Pushing him into a corner where he just hasn't gone.

01:02:12

The second passage would be Ephesians 1 3 to 14 where again

01:02:18

Blessed be the God and Father etc. And he he destined us in love to be his sons And this again, it's very much an

01:02:25

Israel story very much an Exodus story. So it goes back through Deuteronomy and Exodus where God says to Israel it wasn't because you were more numerous than anyone else that the

01:02:34

Lord chose you It's because he loved you and had purposes for you So again, it's sort of so that you might be the people through whom his glory would

01:02:44

Move out into the world and then the really difficult passage, of course is Romans 9 to 11

01:02:50

But actually there I mean and it is a hugely difficult and wonderfully complex intricate passage

01:02:57

But as I say in a rather long section on it in my new book, which you might like to read one day There's The the sense yet again what he's doing is telling the story of Israel So that it then ultimately focuses on Jesus himself

01:03:14

But the point then which has so often been missed is that he is not talking

01:03:20

About a theory of how people get saved or not What he's saying is and it's a very difficult and tricky thing to say is that God's dealings with unbelieving

01:03:32

Israel are as it were a reflection of or throwing up onto the historical screen of God's dealings with his own son because the question is why has

01:03:43

God apparently cast off his people What on earth is God up to he made promises to the

01:03:50

Jews that he would do a B and C And he's now done them and they turn around and say they don't want it It has does this mean the word as God has failed and Paul develops this very careful and subtle picture in which he says no

01:04:01

Actually, even this too was part of God's plan because by their casting away

01:04:08

Salvation has come to the Gentiles if Israel had believed straight off the top then actually any

01:04:13

Gentiles coming in would have had just to be part of Israel whereas the point as he says at the end of Romans 11 is that God has subjected all to disobedience so that all who come it might be mine by mercy and so He's exploring the very strange ways in which the

01:04:30

Christ shaped cross and resurrection shaped Pattern of salvation has actually been writ large into the story of Israel.

01:04:39

The danger as I say, is it's so much Western theology medieval and post medieval Reformation has pulled back from thinking about Israel at all

01:04:47

You can read many works in that tradition that just don't deal with the question of Israel But if you take that out, it looks as though he's producing an abstract theory of predestination

01:04:58

This isn't to say that there isn't a mystery because there is a mystery Because In a group before today.

01:05:04

I'm not a universalist I do think it's possible for people to say no and for God as it were to honor that No, even though that's always strange and dark and kind of chaotic and tragic but I don't think at any point in the scriptures

01:05:18

Are we given an answer to the question we want to ask that if God is a puppet master? Why is he pulling these strings and not those strings and the answer is actually that's not what it's like God is not a puppet master.

01:05:28

We are we are humans We are in his image and it's more subtle and complicated than that. Okay right

01:05:36

Okay again When you're

01:05:42

Sitting in front of an audience Someone's taking questions You you try to be concise.

01:05:48

Okay, I get all that But but the imbalance here seems striking to me

01:06:00

Romans 9 through 11 is how God is dealing with his son and Seemingly rejected his his son

01:06:11

I'm sorry there there you have to be importing these grand external conclusions and then

01:06:21

Playing pretty fast and loose with the text that point To come up with that.

01:06:27

I mean, it's not all Israel who are Israel's has something to do with the rejection of Jesus It's the children of the promise that did account.

01:06:36

It's Sorry Ephesians 1 you start getting

01:06:42

Bardian about Jesus being the elect one. Yeah, I you know, I hear reform folks doing that too and in Ephesians 1

01:06:51

Jesus is the one in whom we are chosen, but he's not the elect one. The direct object is us

01:06:58

You just you can't get around that It's it's direct it's personal and One of the things that bugs me about NT Wright is his constant minimalization of Soteriology with the assertion of Well, you know, it's not just about how we get to heaven as if how we get to heaven is all of soteriology

01:07:23

There's just I Think if I had the same amount of time and address the same amount of text

01:07:31

I could have been a lot clearer than that And partly because he knows that the presuppositional framework he has created is absolutely unique to himself and hence, he really can't assume that the audience is going to have any kind of it's going to resonate with it or have any understanding of Of what's there?

01:07:50

So I just wanted to provide that and Say see the where you start if if you if you bring in things at the start

01:08:02

Presuppositionally to your your hermeneutics and again NT Wright has done tremendous work

01:08:10

When he's dealing with texts that Don't that are not overly influenced by his imbalances

01:08:22

He really has but when it comes to areas like this Very very troubling and not not overly not only be useful

01:08:33

Huh, I'm sorry

01:08:41

You've been busy, but Hasim king of graphics has found Matthew Vines's original tweets where he

01:08:49

I wondered I saw the jazz says January 2014. Yeah Well, January 2014 is where he agrees and points out that he's still looking forward to it

01:08:59

But go down a little bit more and you're gonna find May 26 2013 the book comes out in early to 4 to 2014 several months after the conference

01:09:09

So we'll have to arrange something for then or beyond. I didn't even see that Good well,

01:09:16

I hope I retweeted it. So I don't see it on mine Then again,

01:09:21

I'll follow you. No I do But it's not it's not on mine. I don't know why so may 26 2013 he pretty clearly

01:09:32

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, no doubt about it. Definitely. Yeah things Things change for some reason.

01:09:39

That's something tells me a publicist and pop you publicist change This is this is true.

01:09:46

All right now to demonstrate Our ability to completely completely

01:09:56

Destroy the clutch of the program. I mean it was pretty big shift Go from Matthew Vines to NT right now.

01:10:05

I'm gonna shift all the way over to Durban, South Africa last October Once again to remind you that we have a trip coming up and Your support of this ministry helps to allow that to happen

01:10:24

Including just the general support of the ministry because the ministry has to keep going even when I'm gone So The reality is that we're heading down to South Africa there are costs associated with that on every end so just Providing for the ministry would be most helpful right now in preparation for this and I'm very excited about the fact that aside.

01:10:54

Well, first of all The Muslims in South Africa Are trying to bring

01:11:02

Shabir Ali back to South Africa to debate with me in South Africa once again

01:11:08

That's exciting and then There will be an expansion of our topics in South Africa, I'm not sure how this is going to Work out

01:11:23

But Can I be Christian and Homosexual Debate with Graham Codrington who

01:11:34

I guess is sort of the South African Matthew Vines Presenting gay

01:11:43

Christianity and He has Expressed his willingness to debate not just the way that Matthew Vines did but knowing that I'm coming there in October and So this trip will include

01:12:02

Lecture series on Bart Ehrman on the deity of Christ debating the subject of homosexuality, by the way

01:12:11

The profaning of marriage took place in South Africa years ago years ago And the continued dialogue with with Muslims there in South Africa as well, so That's all coming up and your support in being able to do that is very very important I Wanted to do this back in like November and Things happen, you know, we we get buried with stuff and I've got stuff, you know

01:12:47

I've I've got a final that I I've got a bunch of grading that I've got to be doing over the next week just a tremendous amount of grading and If it ends up in my inbox

01:12:59

It just keeps getting pushed down if it's not at the top. I feel terrible it

01:13:04

Think things happen and that's what happened with this as well Yes shifting to a

01:13:09

Muslim topic if you're thinking about tuning out, however Because ads

01:13:15

Islam, you know, what can I say? you might want to stick around because if if I have time

01:13:22

I Might make some comments about some stuff that happened on Twitter yesterday. Maybe we'll see.

01:13:29

I'm not promising anything I'm not sure how I'm gonna do this.

01:13:35

Let me just play a little portion From Yusuf Ismail, this is in the

01:13:44

Juma Masjid in Durban, South Africa and I can play the whole thing I'll sort of have to fill in because it takes him a while to get around to his point basically and I have the book up so I'll sort of make it for you, but Here is a section

01:13:59

This is the section. We did two sections the Christology of John the Christology of the

01:14:04

Quran this is in the second half toward the end of the debate and So let's let

01:14:09

Yusuf speak for himself here Now we're looking at Arabia the context in which you see

01:14:16

I I assumed I knew what the argument was I don't know why that's why does that happen at times?

01:14:22

The It's out of sync, it's not out of sync in the file because I've watched it before why does that happen?

01:14:36

Well Just listen to it. Try to ignore the out of sync part. I I don't know why that happens, but it does

01:14:42

Now we're looking at Arabia the context in which you see I I assumed

01:14:47

I knew what the argument was tonight I already knew what James is going to say and James is saying the basic thrust is

01:14:54

How is the Quran addressing people who didn't believe in what they have?

01:14:59

Well, thanks to a mutual friend of ours Dr. Shabir Ali He recommended this book to me the

01:15:06

Bible in Arabic the scripture of the people of the book in the language of Islam by Sidney Griffiths have you read if you come across you haven't come across this book yet this book this particular individual.

01:15:15

He's a scholar He's a specialist in Arab Christianity in the history of Arab Christianity.

01:15:20

He's a specialist We'll focus on a bit of his writings Basically, he goes on to suggest.

01:15:26

Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you James You very honorable the honorable man.

01:15:32

No, don't do that. We don't want to intimidate James. We don't intimidate myself. Oh Yeah, he did that for James certainly like beer

01:15:43

Okay, what basically what Sidney Griffiths says Sidney Griffiths is an Arabic scholar and what he says is that in the context of the 6th century recognizing the

01:15:52

Quran's Christians a Wealth of information that exists. He says that scholars have basically gathered evidence

01:15:59

Providing that the major Christian communities in Arabia were the Malkites the

01:16:05

Jacobites and the Nestorians that's in in the historical context in whom in which the

01:16:11

Quran was in fact addressing and He's coached on a book by a world -renowned scholar called

01:16:17

Irfan Shaheed Roman the Arabs a prolegate to the study of Byzantium and the

01:16:22

Arabs Byzantium and the Arabs in the 4th century in the 5th century in the 6th century in volume 1 and 2 it basically deals with the identity of the

01:16:31

Arab Christians in the immediate pre -islamic context and what Sidney Griffiths points out is that these

01:16:37

Christians in fact did have the beliefs That you claim those

01:16:43

Christians never in fact possessed now I'm trying to I'm trying to summarize this obviously the entirety of the debate you can watch it for yourself and and if you feel

01:16:55

I'm cutting them off too short listen like that, but The the book the scriptures the the

01:17:04

Bible in Arabic I Obviously got hold of it as soon as the debate was over. In fact,

01:17:09

I think I got it Well, I was still there of via Kindle. I'm not sure No, I couldn't have because that's that's next to impossible to do in South Africa Anyway What basically is being argued is

01:17:26

When I look at the text of the Quran I'm asking a simple question do

01:17:35

I have a Basis in the text itself and see my

01:17:41

Muslim friends. You gotta understand not do I have a basis in later? Islamic orthodoxy

01:17:47

But do I have a basis in the text itself because you'll have to admit

01:17:54

There's Tafsir literature that you reject Some of the early

01:18:00

Tafsir do not follow the later rules that were developed and so you don't

01:18:08

Mukatto for example Very very important material, but you you reject it because it doesn't follow the later standards things like that But that Tafsir literature that interpretive literature of the

01:18:19

Quran. I want to look at the text itself

01:18:25

Not how it's interpreted later on and and I find most of you to be very hesitant

01:18:30

And in fact on this on these very texts whether it be surah 547 surah 5 116

01:18:37

I'm getting completely different interpretations from pretty much every person I debate I've got a different interpretation from Basam Zawadi which actually

01:18:47

Yusuf mentioned his Disagreement with Zawadi here in just a few seconds later on in this clip

01:18:53

I've got Basam Zawadi I've got Abdullah Kunda. I've got Yusuf Ismail.

01:18:59

I've got Shabir Ali and They're all varying from one another there's no consistency there and And this is partly because I've said for a long time

01:19:11

There's a vast difference between interpreting the text of the Quran interpreting the text of New Testament We have so much more knowledge about the background of The New Testament that we have about the

01:19:19

Quran that it's very difficult to do verse -by -verse type exegesis of the Quran itself anyway the whole reason

01:19:26

I raised this issue is because Yusuf used this as evidence that well actually the

01:19:33

Quran does Show knowledge of what Christians were believing at this particular point in time

01:19:38

Well, first of all Griffiths admits that he is presenting a very minority perspective in Scholarship, let me give an example from his book

01:19:50

This is right before the section that I want to focus on scholars have not this is talking about surah surah talmaidah 73 surah 573

01:19:59

The Historically troublesome term for commentators both ancient and modern the passage quote above from surah surah 573 is a phrase thalith thalathatin one of three

01:20:13

Sometimes translated as third of three that Allah is the third of three say not that the law is third of three

01:20:20

Scholars have not heretofore So here he's admitting he's going out on his own here

01:20:26

Recognized it as reflecting an epithet of Jesus the Messiah common in mainstream

01:20:34

Christian Syriac homiletic text in the adjectival form Clithia meaning one of three trouble trying and referring to Jesus the

01:20:44

Son of God as one of three in the Trinity and as typologically characterized by three on account of having spent three hours on the cross and Three days in the tomb just as Jonah spent three days in the belly the whale

01:20:56

Once the phrase is recognized as an Arabic rendering of the not uncommon Syriac epithet for Jesus the

01:21:01

Messiah The two verses quoted above surah talmaidah 72 and 73 surah 5

01:21:07

Can be seen to be affirming the same judgment about the infidelity of those who say in the

01:21:12

Quran's polemically inspired rendering God is the Messiah Mary's Son or God is one of three now

01:21:21

What you what you need out what we need to understand here, but I'll try to explain to you why this is relevant I'm sort of wondering

01:21:29

Yusuf and As well for you Shabir at your use of sources again

01:21:37

Because are you really willing to start saying in light of Sunni orthodoxy

01:21:43

That the Quran has eternally existed and is uncreated Are you agreeing with Griffith that the source of this terminology is

01:21:53

Pre -existing Syriac Descriptions of Jesus Because it's very clear that what

01:22:01

Griffiths is saying. Is it the Quran? The author of the car now, I just I completely disagree with Griffiths at this point.

01:22:08

I'm sorry. I I find no basis for believing that the author of the

01:22:14

Quran Was had this level of knowledge of the specific terminology of the various groups in Christianity and actually understood

01:22:28

The arguments they were having like the Nestor Ian's or something like that There's I see nothing in the

01:22:34

Quran to substantiate this at all But the problem is if you want to go with Griffiths on this, how do you maintain

01:22:40

Orthodox? How do you maintain Sunni orthodoxy? Because Griffiths perspective is clearly that the

01:22:47

Quran is drawing from this source and this source and this source and this source and Drawing all these things together and compiling these things together.

01:22:55

I Thought this was Well, it's ironic We're right at the end of Ramadan.

01:23:01

So we're in the week where Muslims argue about which day Layla talqadar is and why is

01:23:07

Layla talqadar so important? Because Layla talqadar is the night upon which the Quran was sent down to Jibreel as a

01:23:16

Body and It's the night of power and If you accept that then you can't accept that the author of the

01:23:26

Quran was Was drawing from all these different. It's it's something the Quran itself denies that Muhammad was doing is

01:23:35

Drawing from all these different sources and putting together a polemic based upon At times even in Griffiths perspective even misunderstanding

01:23:49

Or at least understandable misunderstandings or something along those those lines

01:23:55

Are you really? Wanting to go here because once you start going to the idea of recognizing the various sources

01:24:05

That the author the Quran was using Where do you stop? Where do you stop?

01:24:15

There's all sorts of huge gaping black holes that open at that point in the

01:24:22

Tafsir literature That would be considered Orthodox Sunni over against westernized stuff that is willing to start talking about what did

01:24:35

Muhammad actually have access to and knowledge of Because Griffiths obviously is not operating on the idea that Quran is the result of a single man named

01:24:46

Muhammad so Where are you gonna go here? What sources you're gonna use?

01:24:56

I'm sure I'll be talking with Yusuf again in South Africa, and I'm gonna

01:25:01

I want to ask this question You know because he was talking to you know inconsistency the sign of a failed argument

01:25:08

All right. Let's see where you're being. Let's am I being inconsistent? I'll I'll happily try to answer any accusations of that, but what about you guys?

01:25:19

It seems that the more we push on this The More willingness there is to maybe back off from some foundational elements of Sunni orthodoxy that would have well

01:25:35

Let me just add this and I am gonna go long so we may we may be going mega here. Sorry Have all day yeah

01:25:44

I Had a really neat opportunity

01:25:50

To speak in Denver on Sunday and I've had some conversations really recently there with a

01:25:58

Muslim afterwards Who by the way is an avid listener of the dividing line? I had a Muslim that I didn't tell you about this

01:26:03

I had a Muslim come up to me at L2 church in Denver on Sunday morning and in his notes he quoted to me from what

01:26:12

I said on the June 23rd dividing line We have a very interesting audience and if you're listening my friend,

01:26:20

I appreciate our conversation But I think you would have to admit cuz you I'm not good I couldn't honestly identify you because I don't think he gave me your last name anyways but You gotta admit

01:26:34

You know, I agreed with you nominalism is a big thing I appreciate the fact that you resonated with much of what

01:26:40

I was saying believing Muslims talking with believing Christians. That's that's an important thing But you gotta admit you're not an orthodox

01:26:48

Sunni Muslim you pretty much dismissed the Hadith Now there's there's more people out there

01:26:53

I I wish I remember what the name of the I can go ahead and close this and see if I can find it now

01:26:59

I don't have time to find it, but I wish there was a a search function in in titles because I know that I I Wonder if it's by title.

01:27:12

I read a book via Kindle just recently on Heath and and basically the

01:27:22

Muslim author was arguing that what we need to do and this was a book recommended by Shabir Ali and I need to track it down.

01:27:31

I the name of it has has Escaped me.

01:27:37

But anyways, it was a Muslim author who is basically saying

01:27:44

We need to really rethink the Hadith and our commitment to it and I've I was asked is there any possibility for Reformation within Islam in light of Isis and things like that.

01:28:00

Is there any possibility of Reformation? To the

01:28:05

Muslims who are watching this and especially to the Muslims like the gentleman I talked to after the debate in Southern, California The gentleman

01:28:13

I talked to there in Denver thoughtful Muslims who are troubled by Isis and things like that You and I both know

01:28:24

The only way that there could be Reformation in Islam is to fundamentally reject the everything outside of the

01:28:36

Quran and to reinterpret the later sections of the

01:28:41

Quran in a fairly radical way in a fairly radical way and Can we argue that that would really be

01:28:49

Islam any longer that's really the issue That's really the issue and it's raised in my mind once again by you know, you go to Griffiths as a source but Griffiths is not operating on the idea that that the

01:29:04

Quran is a is a single authored Book from one man who dies in 632

01:29:16

It's instead drawing from all sorts of other sources and Once you're willing to start once you're willing to go there that's gonna change that's gonna change our conversation completely

01:29:27

It's gonna change our conversation completely really is And it really makes me wonder how you form your theology

01:29:37

Once you have the Quran Having a very different nature than Islam is always confessed.

01:29:43

It's really gonna change things really is all right, I Could wrap up right there.

01:29:50

I could wrap up right there But we've gone this long might as well talk a little bit about what happened yesterday

01:30:02

There were Yesterday There I had never heard in my entire life of Karen swallow prior until yesterday morning.

01:30:23

I've never claimed omniscience. I I Do not

01:30:30

I am NOT a Southern Baptist I Probably have more interaction with Southern Baptists because of my background.

01:30:39

I am a Reformed Baptist. I speak in Southern Baptist churches I have lots of Southern Baptist friends

01:30:48

But I had never heard of Karen swallow prior I did not know of any Association, I'll be honest with you other than dr.

01:30:57

Moore. I wouldn't have known anyone at the ERL see So I'm an outsider and yesterday

01:31:09

JD Hall pulpit and pen dropped an article about ERL see and about Karen swallow prior well,

01:31:19

I Didn't see it well, I Was traveling yesterday.

01:31:25

I Had to leave evergreen, Colorado yesterday morning by 3 15 a .m

01:31:34

To make this really wildly circuitous flight home. I Burned airline miles to do this for free.

01:31:42

My whole cycling adventure was you know, yeah,

01:31:47

I got to speak up there, but It was training and I'm going back up there because my big rides on the 25th anyway,

01:31:56

I Think I really started Seeing stuff about it when

01:32:03

I got to Seattle and I was actually charging my mackup and They had free

01:32:11

Wi -Fi thankfully in in Seattle and I Looked at the article and I thought wow hmm, okay, this is interesting and Immediately I started seeing

01:32:31

Push back on Twitter, especially from people you know from Southern Baptist who said

01:32:36

I know this person and this is not true and that is not true and You know the missile started flying at one point the

01:32:48

The from my perspective most horrific Internet meme of all time got introduced and I ended up having some back -and -forth with a younger gentleman who had presented it and Thankfully he withdrew it and so on so forth.

01:33:11

So that was what took up some of my time but I just basically said especially when

01:33:17

I got home. All right I'm hearing both sides going at it on this I'm looking forward to the rebuttal articles because if if the if this is imbalanced if If there's more to the story here shouldn't be too difficult to for someone to produce a counter article wouldn't seemingly take that much time if this person has if this

01:33:44

Karen Swallow Pryor who is at Liberty an English teacher at Liberty Has written all this stuff shouldn't take much time to respond to this and and to get this stuff out there well it didn't take long for me to discover that there were a lot of emotions on both sides of This one as well, and I was very disappointed at the fact that a lot of folks just Went at it fork and tongue, but it was all just emotions.

01:34:13

I'm sitting here trying to go. Wait, wait, wait, wait Could someone provide some? Thoughtful stuff here rather than just I know this person and they're wonderful.

01:34:22

I think this is just and it's just You know again one of those days where you're going do we really need social media?

01:34:30

I mean, is there anything worthwhile about it at all? So eventually

01:34:35

I was able to be to find some links and One of the links that was provided by Karen Swallow Pryor herself to me in Twitter Was to an article

01:34:57

Gay marriage abortion and the bigger picture All right, this is from Christianity Today now

01:35:04

Christian today is not my favorite source of anything But it's under the her minutics, so it's

01:35:11

Christian women cultural comment And this is June 29th 2015 not exactly a million years ago.

01:35:19

All right This was presented to me as a see this is

01:35:26

This is the kind of thing you need to see that will help you understand exactly where this Individual is coming from who

01:35:33

I guess was hired in some capacity By dr. Russell Moore at ERLC, okay

01:35:47

Just looking at well Let me just read the beginning in 1973 Supreme Court Roe v.

01:35:53

Wade and Doe v. Bolton rulings together legalizing abortion in all 50 states took everyone by surprise 42 years later the courts legalization of gay marriage in Obergefell versus Hodges surprised almost no one monster

01:36:06

Both cases mark historic losses for American evangelicals minutes after Friday's ruling Southern Baptist leader

01:36:11

Russell Moore called it the Roe v. Wade of marriage Though many evangelicals oppose abortion and gay marriage as violations of natural law there are significantly different issues with different social consequences as Christian as Christians we recognize the value of God -given life when society authorizes the deprivation of life

01:36:29

We commit the gravest possible injustice the results of abortion are as immediate visceral and individual as they are sweeping an estimated 20 % of pregnancies in the

01:36:39

US that end in abortion over 56 million since 1973 the social consequences of legalizing same -sex marriage have yet to be seen

01:36:49

Currently they comprise less than one half of 1 % of all married couples in the country and unlike abortion

01:36:55

Gay marriage remains an act rooted in love as Wesley Hill writes even if we disagree with the expression of homosexuality

01:37:04

We can affirm the longing to be loved and belong and so I immediately I didn't stop there, but I'm I was immediately

01:37:12

Caused to stop at that point and go hmm That goes on to say yet What abortion same -sex marriage have in common is that they each?

01:37:24

Attempt to deny the procreative nature of the sexual union each forms a deep crack in the mirror of nature that reflects the image of God Okay, but I Was immediately troubled and as I read more of the article

01:37:37

I became more trouble Because Dr.

01:37:43

Pryor seems to very much embrace a lot of the terminology that I believe requires a compromise of our position from the very beginning

01:37:58

The Acceptance of a community based upon aberrant sexual behavior.

01:38:06

I Don't how I I'm sorry I cannot understand how there is anything called an

01:38:11

LGBT community because the LG and the B and the T are all different Transsexualism and homosexuality

01:38:23

The only thing they seem to have together From a biblical perspective is tremendous confusion and an assertion of absolute human autonomy but bisexualism again

01:38:37

Very very different from from everything you did. There's there's such a such a confusion in that for those four letters

01:38:46

That putting them together is like taking magnets that are repelling each other and trying to hold them together.

01:38:52

They're just I Don't understand how anyone Who is thoughtful from a biblical perspective can use the term

01:39:02

LGBT community it's it's wrong on every level that it can be wrong on but it's

01:39:09

Part of just what's what's the given anymore? You just have to do it to have a place at a table

01:39:14

I don't want a place at that table If what's being served that table is poisonous.

01:39:20

I don't want it Anyways, the point is this And unlike abortion gay marriage remains an act rooted in love the term love

01:39:42

Loving in the Christian context Will always and always has had meaning that The unregenerate person cannot even begin to comprehend and again, we're talking about How Christians should respond to these issues how

01:40:04

Christians should be speaking There seems to be a fundamental compromise of the

01:40:10

Christian worldview By so many today that it's extremely troubling the millennial generation

01:40:22

Does not understand the Christian worldview and it comes to the term love when you're constantly say, well, you're not being loving

01:40:30

You're not being loving When that terminology and that phraseology is being used of people who are seeking to be faithful to God's revelation they are seeking to be loving and That it is not loving from a

01:40:45

Christian perspective to adopt a definition of love That does not have at its very root and its very center the self sacrificial love

01:40:58

It was demonstrated upon the cross of Calvary, but what that requires us is to recognize that true love has to understand that we live in God's world and That sin is destructive of that world and that there's something called the wrath of God against sin

01:41:19

If you don't see that in the cross, you're not seeing the cross. I understand

01:41:27

How difficult it is to try to communicate this? to a rebel sinner

01:41:34

But I shouldn't have to be communicating this to fellow Christians. I Should not have to be reminding fellow

01:41:42

Christians that we need to be very careful in our use of that beautiful word love and That the last thing we should be doing is

01:41:54

Utilizing the world's definition of the word. Love gay marriage is

01:42:05

Is not an act rooted in love How can any Christian say that?

01:42:11

How can any thoughtful Christian say that this requires you to be using the world's definition of love?

01:42:18

Not the Christian definition of love because there is nothing truly loving about profaning the institution given by God to man for the continuation of the species for the flourishing of human beings and as a picture of Christ's Self -sacrificial love for the church

01:42:45

That is not seen in two men committing themselves to each other

01:42:55

For life as Warm and fuzzy as that might be that is not and Can never be biblical marriage because there is no husband and there is no wife

01:43:07

Which is why immediately there are people today trying to get rid of the terminology of husband and wife in law

01:43:14

Because there's no meaning for it anymore in light of the Supreme Court abomination But the point is that mirror image attraction

01:43:27

That is a same -sex relationship Can never be marriage and so it's not biblical love.

01:43:37

It's not loving to fulfill your own

01:43:44

Aberrant Lusts in that way and it's not loving for the other person either.

01:43:51

It's it's involves self -love and Then it it results in the damaging of the other person.

01:43:59

That's not biblical love No matter how you want to try to twist it you end up having to overthrow the biblical definition of love

01:44:10

To make a statement like this. So I get to that point and I go well, that's

01:44:19

You know, I'm very thankful. This person is against abortion but There is a fundamentally compromised

01:44:31

Worldview involved in this kind of a statement that then continues on the rest of the article as well So again,

01:44:38

I don't You know people were basically I had there were some people on Twitter basically saying well

01:44:43

You just need to read everything this person has ever read or has ever written on this subject. I'm sorry I've got a few other things to be doing

01:44:52

There are actually a few people in this audience that appreciate the fact that I read stuff that you don't want to have to read and then explain it and Go on from there so but what did concern me?

01:45:07

Was this type of this type of language and I am

01:45:13

NOT making I cannot make a judgment on the accuracy of the pulpit and pen article here because You know

01:45:25

Until yesterday had never heard this person But as I started reading through this then

01:45:34

This was it this morning or was it last night Bob Gagnon also wrote on the swallow prior issue this morning

01:45:50

But he also wrote on what happened about Julie Rogers at Wheaton which is very very directly related to this because If you read an update on the gay debate evolving ideas untidy stories and hopes for the church on Julie Rogers wordpress .com

01:46:14

She has left Wheaton But basically let me

01:46:21

Let me just read you two paragraphs Though I've been slow to admit to myself.

01:46:28

I've quietly supported same -sex relationships for a while now This is evident while she was still working at Wheaton When friends have chosen to lay their lives down for their partners

01:46:39

I've celebrated their commitment to one another and supported them as they've lost so many Christian friends. They loved

01:46:48

Julie, they are not laying their lives down for someone else. There is the eight sir connecto the

01:47:01

Correspondence that is necessary to now if you want to if you want to talk about the love that one man can have for another on the battlefield in Laying your life down For someone else.

01:47:16

That's one thing. That's never ever been marriage and It will never be marriage

01:47:23

It's a great form of love It's wonderful, but it's not marriage

01:47:31

It's not a picture of Christ in the church, it's not an eight -sir connecto It does not produce life

01:47:39

It may save one life by sacrificing another totally different context totally different context

01:47:48

When young people have angst at me about the gay debate I've just told them to follow Jesus to seek to honor him with their sexuality and love others.

01:47:55

Well That wasn't Jesus's answer that wasn't

01:48:02

Jesus's answer Jesus does not leave you to angst

01:48:09

He addressed God's creative purpose Matthew 19 for some

01:48:15

I imagine they will feel led to commit to lifelong celibacy for others I think it will mean laying their lives down for spouses and staying true to that promise to the end

01:48:25

You mean giving in You mean capitulating you mean going against?

01:48:31

Jesus's teach just be honest. This is there's gonna be so much of this language so carefully crafted to avoid

01:48:43

Following Jesus's clear teachings. There is no clear teaching. That's the whole point here My main hope for all of them is they would grow to love

01:48:51

Jesus more and that it would overflow into a life spent on others you see that sounds so wonderful to the millennial generation

01:49:01

But it doesn't have any meaning Because you don't love Jesus if you disobey him

01:49:07

You don't love Jesus said something about if you love me you will What's turn?

01:49:14

Keep my commandments while I struggle to understand how to apply scripture to the marriage debate today.

01:49:23

Why? Why? It's not because of a lack of clarity in the scripture it's because of a lack of commitment on your part to the

01:49:34

Lordship of Christ, it's this gay marriage commitment of love

01:49:45

Here Julie Rogers somebody else We are we are going to be

01:49:53

Buried in this we are going to be swimming in it And if you don't have the solid foundation under your feet, you're gonna drown

01:50:04

This is the language of our culture, but our culture has stopped honoring language

01:50:12

That's the problem That's the problem there's so much more but I've already the smell in The studio from the completely destroyed clutch of the program is almost overwhelming.

01:50:30

I'm starting It's starting to tear up really am We have gone so far

01:50:36

With so many topics today, but we sort of came around Actually, we sort of tied stuff together at the end, didn't we?

01:50:44

Because Matthew Vines has been willing to Redefine language and Julie Rogers is redefining language

01:50:57

Now he's doing it purposefully and knowledgeably. She just may be very very confused. I don't know

01:51:02

I don't know. All I'm saying is folks. You've got to listen to what is being said

01:51:11

Analyze presuppositionally and stay committed to the fact that God has spoken and He's spoken with clarity and we try to help you work with those issues

01:51:25

You're on the dividing line and that's what we're doing. We'll be back again on Thursday I don't know what we'll be talking about because between now and then who knows what may happen

01:51:32

But we almost went a full, you know, nine minutes short of a full mega. We'll call it a mega anyways

01:51:38

A mega edition of the dividing line and who knows next maybe the next time we'll actually have just one topic