BAPTISM DEBATE | Is Water Baptism Necessary for Justification? @TheProgressivePrimitivist

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believe that we have sound now. Is that correct? Adam could you check that out for us and make sure that we have audio on the live feed.

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We want to make sure that those of you that are watching online you want to be able to hear what these guys have to say. You may not want to know what

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I want to say but you're going to hear them. So we'll double check before we move forward here and make sure the sound is working.

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Is it working? All right we got the thumbs up. All right well I'm gonna start over here. The proposition put forward tonight is water baptism is necessary for justification before God, whereas we have in the affirmative

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Mike Hysaul and in the negative Pastor Jeremiah Nortier that serves here at 12 .5.

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And so we are going to, without any more delay, we are going to go ahead and get started, get all the introductions out of the way.

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Well tonight's debate will be starting out with opening statements. Each gentleman will be given 20 minutes to state their case in each of their stated positions.

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We will start with the affirmative. Mike the floor is yours. I will start the clock as soon as you begin your opening statement.

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Well appreciate everybody for being here tonight and appreciate everybody who's watching on the live stream.

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And this is such an important topic both to Jeremiah and me. We're on opposite sides of the question but I think we both view this as an equally important topic.

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And so I'll begin by defining my proposition. It is that water baptism is necessary for justification before God.

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So by water baptism what I mean is immersion in water. Of course I think we're all in agreement that it would be better for the word baptizo to have been translated rather than transliterated.

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That would have avoided a lot of unnecessary confusion. But when we talk about water immersion,

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I'm not talking about just any and every form of water immersion being necessary for justification before God.

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But I'm talking about the water immersion that Jesus commanded in the Great Commission. And so that's a great text to start with.

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So let me just elaborate on Matthew chapter 28 verses 18 through 20 before I continue defining the proposition.

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So Jesus said to his disciples that all authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.

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Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the

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Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey all things whatever I've commanded you. And behold

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I'm with you always even to the end of the age. So notice Jesus prefaced this commission on his universal authority.

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And so this is to be considered in the weightiest light possible.

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And so Jesus, based on his universal authority, commands his disciples to go and make more disciples.

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Now what's very interesting is the fact that the verb there in Matthew chapter 28 verse 19, mathetusata, which is an imperative,

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Jesus tells us how that verb is to be carried out. And so he follows up that imperative verb with two participles, baptizantes and didaskantes, baptizing and teaching.

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And as Daniel Wallace says in his Greek Grammar Beyond Basics, these are participles of means.

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So they express how the command to make disciples is carried out. And the way that it's carried out is with a taught baptism.

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The disciples are to go out and they're to be teaching. They're to be teaching people to obey everything that Jesus commanded.

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But of all the things that Jesus commanded, there is one commandment that is singled out and that is separated from the rest.

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And that's the commandment to be water baptized. And Jesus says that this water baptism is to be done in the name, literally, eis ta onima, into the name.

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And in BDAG, which Jeremiah agrees is the highest lexical source for understanding what

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Greek words mean, in BDAG, when he deals with this under the entry on onima, he makes the point that this expresses how someone enters into the possession of the

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Holy Trinity. How one enters into the possession of the Father and of the Son and of the

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Holy Spirit. It's by baptism. So moving on to the proposition, when

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I say that water baptism is necessary, what I mean is water baptism is a stated condition that God makes in his

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Word. By justification before God, what I mean is that it's necessary in order for God to declare someone to be cleared from the guilt of their sin.

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And justification and forgiveness of sins is referring to the same thing. For instance, you might look at Acts chapter 13 verses 38 and 39.

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And there Paul says that through this man is proclaimed to you the forgiveness of sins and a remission, or excuse me, a justification from sins from which you could not be justified under the law of Moses.

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And so forgiveness of sins and justification refers to one of the same thing. So my proposition is that water baptism is commanded by Jesus' supreme authority for a person to obtain that justification before God.

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For God to declare someone to be clear and forgiven of the guilt of their sins. Now when I think about how to prove this from Scripture, I think that I could turn to probably 15 passages.

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And working through those passages, I think that I could establish this proposition. But rather than just running through all 15 passages,

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I think that our time, because we don't have much time, 20 minutes. I mean I can barely clear my throat in 20 minutes.

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So I think that the time is best spent by really getting into one passage, developing it, and seeing that it does make this point.

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So I want us to consider Acts chapter 2. And of course, I think Jeremiah is in agreement with me that Acts chapter 2 is the beginning of the

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New Covenant age. It is the day that the Holy Spirit is poured out upon the apostles.

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And the apostles, for the first time after Jesus' death and resurrection and his session at the

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Father's right hand, that the apostles declare the saving message of the gospel.

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And so as the crowd has gathered because of the ruckus that the apostles are making and speaking in all these different languages that these ignorant

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Galileans have never learned, Peter begins to preach to the crowd. And Peter comes to the climax of the sermon in verse 36 when he says, therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this

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Jesus whom you crucified both Lord and Christ. And what a piercing message that was.

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In fact, the very next verse says that as they heard these things they were cut to the heart and they cried out to Peter and the rest of the apostles, men and brethren, what shall we do?

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And so they recognize that they are guilty of the worst sin imaginable for having crucified their

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Messiah that they've been waiting for for centuries. And so as they stand trembling before God, pierced in their heart, they want to know what they have to do to make it right.

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And so this question that they ask, what shall we do? Tipu esomen. This is a question that we find other places in Scripture.

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This is the very question that was asked by three groups inquiring of John the Baptist in Luke chapter 3 as to what they need to do in order to bring forth fruits meet for repentance.

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This is the same question in essence that the jailer will ask Paul and Silas, men and brethren, what must

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I do to be saved in Acts chapter 16 and verse 30. This will be the same question that Saul of Tarsus will ask the resurrected and glorified

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Jesus as he's being confronted on the road to Damascus in Acts chapter 22.

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And so notice what Peter says. Peter says to them, repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, or as it's translated in the

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New Revised Standard Version, so that your sins may be forgiven. And you shall receive the gift of the

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Holy Spirit for the promises to you and to your children and to all that are far off even as many as the

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Lord our God shall call unto Him. Now I think that it's almost as instructive to consider what

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Peter doesn't say as what it is to consider what Peter does say. Notice that Peter does not say to those who ask him what must we do.

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He doesn't say well there's nothing that you need to do because the fact that you are cut to the heart and you're crying out before God that shows that God has already worked a heart change in you.

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That shows that you already believe in Him. And there's nothing that you have to do to have your sins forgiven because God has sovereignly wrought forgiveness for you.

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That's not what Peter says. And notice Peter does not say well believe.

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Peter does not respond in the same way that Paul will respond to the Philippian jailer in Acts chapter 16.

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You know after the jailer asks what must I do to be saved? Paul says believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you'll be saved you and all your household in Acts 16 verse 31.

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Now we wonder well why does Peter not respond in that way? And it's clear why.

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It's not because the terms of justification of change between Acts chapter 2 and Acts chapter 16.

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It's because they already believe. If they didn't already believe what Peter had said that God has made that Jesus whom you crucified both

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Lord and Christ they wouldn't have cried out men and brethren what must we do? But notice even though they already believe even though they are pricked in their heart it shows that God has been working in their heart.

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They're not saved. Peter says repent in answer to their question repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven.

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Now Jeremiah and I are in agreement on what it means to repent and so I don't think that there's need for me to elaborate on that that's not the point of debate.

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But notice Peter doesn't just say repent and you'll be saved.

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Rather he says repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven.

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Now what does it mean when he says be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ? Well in the

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Greek text if you look at it closely you'll see that it's epito onomatopoeia and it could mean be baptized with the name of Jesus Christ being pronounced over you.

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So in other words this could be shorthand for the larger formula that we find in Matthew chapter 28 verse 19 be baptized into the name of the

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Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. That's possible it may be the case that the two prepositions in the formulas ace in Matthew 28 19 epi in Acts chapter 2 verse 38 it could be the case that there there's a difference without or a distinction without a difference in meaning.

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But I tend to believe that what's being referred to here is be baptized up on a confession of the

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Lord Jesus Christ. In fact I think that Peter is linking this back to what was said back in verse 21 where Peter says and it will be that whoever shall call epikalasitai notice the epi epikalasitai whoever shall call upon the name of the

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Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved. And so I think that that's what Peter is more likely getting around to be baptized upon a confession of the

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Lord Jesus Christ and this would be the same then that Ananias would say to Saul in Acts chapter 22 in verse 16 when he says and now what are you waiting for get up get yourself baptized and get your sins washed away calling on the name of the

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Lord or it could be translated having called on the name of the Lord having confessed the name of the

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Lord. And then notice Peter gives the purpose for repentance and baptism they've asked what must we do and clearly what they meant is what must we do to be saved because that's the question that Peter answered.

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And Peter says you need to repent and you need to be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins. eis aphesenton hamartion humon.

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Now I might point out to you that that is the same phrase that we find in Matthew chapter 26 and verse 28 where Jesus is instituting the

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Lord's Supper and he says this is my blood of the covenant which is shed for many eis aphesenton hamartion.

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So that sins may be forgiven. If it doesn't mean so that sins may be forgiven in Acts 2 38 when it's connected with baptism it does not mean so that sins may be forgiven in Matthew chapter 26 verse 28 when it's connected with the blood of Christ.

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We all recognize that it must mean so that sins may be forgiven in Matthew 26 28 when it's connected with the blood of Christ and so it must mean that in Acts 2 38 when it's connected with baptism.

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And so here when we put the two passages together we see the how and we see the when of forgiveness of sins and remember

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Acts 13 38 and 39 forgiveness of sins and justification one and the same thing.

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The how of the forgiveness of sins is the blood of Christ it's not baptism it's the blood of Christ there is no merit in baptism.

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Physical water cannot wash away spiritual guilt. The how of forgiveness is the blood of Christ but the when of forgiveness is water baptism.

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Why? Because Jesus commanded it. Because Jesus has connected water baptism and his blood.

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We go on and there's a purpose given for baptism so that sins may be forgiven but there's also a promise connected with baptism and that is and you will receive the gift of the

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Holy Spirit. And so it is very clear that Peter says another purpose for being baptized a promise connected with baptism is the reception of the

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Holy Spirit without whom no one can be saved. We need the

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Holy Spirit to relate us to God. He is the Holy Spirit of adoption Romans chapter 8 and verse 15.

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Paul says in Romans chapter 8 and verse 9 you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit. If the

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Spirit of God dwells in you if any man does not have the Spirit of Christ he is none of his. You have to have the

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Holy Spirit to belong to God. The Holy Spirit is our seal Ephesians 1 13 it marks us off as God's own.

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The Holy Spirit is our down payment of our internal inheritance Ephesians chapter 1 and verse 14.

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He's the guarantee of eternal life and one does not get the possession the indwelling of the

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Holy Spirit until baptism. Might I remind us again Matthew chapter 28 verse 19.

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Baptism is eis taonima into the name into the possession of into a relationship with the

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Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. In water baptism one is born again and becomes a child of the

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Father. In water baptism one is redeemed through the mediatorial work of our high priest

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Jesus Christ. He becomes our Savior and in water baptism we receive the indwelling of the

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Holy Spirit and we're related to God. Then verse 39

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Peter says this promises to you and your children and to all that are far off and the phrase that's used there twice a mock run we find that same language mock run those who are far off in Acts chapter 22 verse 21 whenever Jesus says to Paul I'm sending you far off to the

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Gentiles. So in other words this is God's plan of salvation for the

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Jews and this is God's plan of salvation for the Gentiles and in fact this is

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God's plan of salvation for every single person for it is to as many as the

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Lord our God shall call. It's God's plan of salvation for those of us who are in Jonesboro Arkansas on April 5th 2024 and so I think we need to point out that since Luke is placing this at the very beginning of the book of Acts and Luke quotes these words of Peter.

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We know Luke didn't quote everything that Peter said in these sermons. It's selective. He quotes what he wants his readers to know what he views through inspiration his readers to know as important and he quotes these words so we'll know at the beginning of Acts that this is the normative pattern for justification.

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Those who believe are to repent and upon their confession of Jesus Christ they're to be baptized so that their sins may be forgiven and so that they may receive the gift of the

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Holy Spirit and so he intends for every person as they read through the later chapters of Acts to read what they find there in light of what they read here in Acts chapter 2.

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That's how any good writer writes his book. Now in the time that I've got remaining

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I want to anticipate what Jeremiah is likely to do.

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I think that Jeremiah is going to come and he's going to try to separate repentance and baptism.

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I think that he's going to try to come along and he's going to say well you know repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin and so that's justification and I think he's going to turn he's going to say well yeah baptism okay that's sanctification and I think he's gonna want in some way

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I don't know how he's going to do it but I think he's been playing his cards pretty close to his chest. He's a shrewd opponent which by the way

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I like this guy I think that we'd be friends if we were if we were closer and well we can be long -distance friends can't we?

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But anyway I think he's going to try to connect forgiveness of sins with repentance and separate it from baptism but you can't do it.

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The text won't allow you to do that. In fact look at verse 40 with many other words he testified and he exhorted them saying be saved it's an imperative it's a passive but it's imperative be saved from this crooked generation.

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Alright so he's exhorting them obey the message that I gave you and notice the next verse verse 41 how did they obey

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Peter's exhortation be saved from this crooked generation well verse 41 says those who received the word his word were baptized and the same day there were added to them about 3 ,000 souls and so the way that they obeyed this command to be saved they received that word the way that they obeyed that command to be saved was that they were baptized.

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And so here Luke explicitly lets us see the way you obey the command to be saved is to be baptized.

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Now I don't think that it'll work for Jeremiah to come up and say well yeah but you understand when it says those who received his word that's when they were saved and then after that they were baptized because if you notice what verse 41 continues to say it says only after they were baptized were there added to their number about 3 ,000 souls because you see they were to be saved from that crooked generation that adulterous generation of Jews that had crucified their

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Messiah and that would soon experience God's judgment through the hands of Rome. They were to be saved from that generation and it's only after they were baptized that they were added to their number that is the number of those redeemed

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Jews by Jesus who were saved and just to add to that drop down to verse 47 and I got to say this quickly last part of verse 47 the

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Lord added those who were being saved to their number daily so verse 47 who is it who's added it's those who are being saved.

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Verse 41 who is it who's added it's those who are baptized and so who are those who are baptized those who are being saved.

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Water baptism is necessary for justification. Thank you. Mike thank you very much we will now hear from the negative as Jeremiah also has 20 minutes for his opening statement

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Jeremiah the floor is yours I will start the clock as soon as you begin speaking all right testing testing can y 'all hear me hello is it on all right so the proposition is is water baptism necessary for our justification before God I believe the scripture is really clear in saying no because our justification is by faith alone in Christ alone and God gets all the glory alone and the scripture is actually very clear that this is apart from any works that we accomplish and that includes our participation in ceremonies like baptism there are six key terms that I appreciate my interlocutor bringing up but he simply begged the question he did not define his terms we're gonna do that I want us to define six terms so please make special note number one faith two works three justification for sanctification five baptism and number six obey because faith and works are related but they are different justification by definition is not sanctification and the ceremony of baptism is a work of obedience that we participate in let's go back to number one faith as BDAG defines is from pistis is trust this is reliability or commitment the writer of Hebrews in Hebrews 11 one says now faith is the assurance of things hoped for the conviction of things not seen so the writer of Hebrews mentions two important words assurance this means firm trust in something that is real even though you haven't seen it with your physical eye and then he uses a parallelism with conviction this is an inward assurance that produces an outward effect like your works saving faith that is pleasing to God is internal it's of the heart and doesn't just merely know facts but it trusts in the unchanging promises of God saving faith that brings conviction to live out your life to the glory of God is by your good works and so let's talk about works number two works can be translated from the

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Greek ergon as the noun or ergods am I as the verb this literally means and we'll get into this definition that which displays itself in activity of any kind in deed or action or the verb form simply simply says engage in activity that involves your efforts works are all encompassing in the human life it is everything that we do and participate in but what about the works of God Jeremiah does

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God work he does way differently than how man works Ephesians chapter 1 says it is

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God who works all things together after the counsel of his will the writer of Hebrew says

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God upholds the universe by the word of his power hopefully it is painfully obvious that the way

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God works is categorically different than how human beings work and so we don't get to say works of God is somehow code for your obedience and your participation to a list of commands faith and works are related but they are different by definition faith is internal faith is of the heart and trust not in your own works but the

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Savior's finished work now your works are external they're expressed in all human efforts the things that you accomplish and participate so number three let's define justification this literally means to be declared right before God no longer condemned free of all charges just as if I never sinned and so the context of the book of Galatians talks about our justification before God it's vertical and please hear me on this justification is by faith apart from works

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Romans chapter 4 starting in verse 2 says for if Abraham was justified by works then he has something to boast about but not before God for what is the scripture say that Abraham was believed

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God and it was counted to him as righteousness and to the one who works or God's am

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I his wages are no longer counted as grace or a gift but as his do he earns it now to the one who does not or God's of my work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly his pistis his faith his heart that's trusting in the finished work of the

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Savior on that basis he is counted righteous just as King David also speaks of the blessing of the one whom

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God counts righteousness apart from works so what is

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Paul's conclusion and Romans 5 1 this is the moment when you're justified he says therefore since we have been justified by not baptism not works of law not your accomplishments but by firm trust in the

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Savior's finished work the reason why Paul is doing this is he is combating all different kinds of legalism all legalism of all stripes and then in the book of James he combats a different enemy that wars against the gospel called licentiousness

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James chapter 2 famously says that you see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone who is

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James talking about when he says you see follow the pronouns go earlier in the context and he's talking about before other men and his whole point is that a mere said faith alone that is a dead faith and is useless before men if it's useless before men is definitely useless before God number four let's define sanctification this means literally to be set apart for special use to make holy we are made holy by walking in obedience to Christ these are sanctifying works of obedience that conform us into Christ's image it makes us less and less like the world the

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Old and New Testament declares this reality that the just shall live by faith that means those who are justified by faith before God now live out that faith in good works to glorify

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God Jesus famously said in the Sermon on the Mount let your light shine before other men that they may see your good works and give glory to your father who is in heaven the point is justification well that is my faith a faith apart from works but then when we are declared right before God we live out that sanctification with our works though one of those sanctifying works that Christians are commanded to obey and participate in is baptism so number five let's define baptism this is really core to this debate

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BDAG defines baptizo as a ceremonial right in water that signifies a relationship with God baptism is a human work by definition because we are participating but baptism is one of many good works for believers that God has prepared beforehand that we should walk in them ah but Jeremiah the the

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Scriptures say that baptism is the powerful working of God yes baptism is a work of God because the

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Holy Spirit is at work in our sanctification baptism is not faith it is an act of faith therefore it is faith being demonstrated by being worked worked out and so a person cannot merely be passive in baptism because it would no longer be an act of faith and notice the the baptismal ceremony according to BDAG signifies that word means it's a visible sign it's a symbol a picture or representation of and so I have a picture of my beautiful family that God has blessed me with and if I were to say is this my family you would say of course and then

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I would say but is it literally my family and you'd say no that would be absurd you're confusing the representation for the reality and for all those who think that they're working participation in a baptismal ceremony literally washes away your passions well you too are confusing the representation for the reality you're confusing the map for the place and you have distorted the only gospel that can save and so for the sake of argument

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I believe I could grant all the baptismal proof text could hypothetically mean a ceremonial right in water and that would not change the fact that justification is by faith alone you may say well all of us have been baptized into Christ Jeremiah and I would say yeah by sign or likeness yeah but you got to go back to Acts 238 be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and I would say yeah by representation baptism now saves you that would be by type or picture however when the

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New Testament does talk about the the word baptism I believe oftentimes it is not referring to a baptismal ceremony made with human hands rather these verses refer to the baptism of the

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Holy Spirit why because the New Covenant is better than the Old Covenant in every way the

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Old Covenant had the sign of circumcision this was only for males and this was performed by human hands and that sign of circumcision symbolized perfect obedience to the law of Moses from the heart that's a problem because every human being born in Adam could not fulfill the laws demands that is why the

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Old Covenant is called the ministry of death because it demands perfection and that only condemns man this is a covenant of works that could only be fulfilled by the

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God -man the perfect Savior Jesus Christ the New Covenant is better it is the covenant of grace that saves to the uttermost and the sign of baptism is better than circumcision because it's not just for males only but females and for all believers the baptism that seals believers in the

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New Covenant is not a baptism made with human hands like the old it is the baptism of the

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Holy Spirit which is the powerful working of God in regeneration the members of the

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New Covenant are sealed with the promised Holy Spirit for we are ones by one spirit we were all baptized into one body and so the ceremony of baptism beautifully signifies all of these realities and truths and that is why

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Christians are commanded to obey this sanctifying work and so I want to talk about that word obey or obedience number six obey means to be subject to full surrender to listen to follow instructions and please hear me obedience typically refers to a person's accomplishments or efforts or their works and rightly so that is the context oftentimes however there are many commands in Scripture that demands our obedience but our response is not to be one in works for example 1st

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John chapter 3 verse 23 says and this is his commandment that we not your works but believe in the name of his son

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Jesus Christ Jesus famously said in Mark 115 the time is fulfilled in the kingdom of God our salvation is at hand repent and believe the gospel the two commands to repent and believe that's not your works this is indicative of a heart of faith a loving heart that looks to Jesus Christ alone to save that's the gospel the gospel has always been that forgiveness of sins our justification before God is by faith apart from works that is the pattern of the gospel that form of doctrine that God has revealed from faith to faith to his covenant people

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Paul says in Romans 6 17 but thanks be to God that you who are once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to that standard of teaching what is it the gospel and so how do you obey the gospel it's from the heart trusting alone in King Jesus you have disobeyed the gospel if you believe that your works are necessary for your justification before God why because he is holy holy holy in the book of Galatians Paul condemned the

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Judaizers not for just believing in a wrong system of religion no they were trying to add the ceremonial work of circumcision to the gospel of grace and the principle for us today is true for anyone who tries to add the ceremonial work of baptism water water baptism is it necessary for our justification before God absolutely not because it is by faith apart from works and so if you have your copy of God's Word I'd like to invite you to turn with me to Luke chapter 18

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I want us to consider a parable that Jesus gave about a Pharisee and a tax collector and you may be thinking does

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Jeremiah not realize this comes way before Acts 238 does this does he not realize that this comes before Jesus's death burial and resurrection

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I want you to ask yourself something can we learn anything from Jesus and his parables for us today and if the answer is yes then please pay careful attention to what

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Jesus says verse 9 says that he also told this parable to some here in verse 9 who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and treated others with contempt two men went up to the temple to pray one a

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Pharisee and the other a tax collector the Pharisee standing by himself prayed thus God I thank you that I am

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NOT like other men extortioners unjust adulterers or even like this tax collector I fast twice a week

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I give tithes of all that I get but the tax collector standing far off would not even lift his eyes to heaven but beat his breasts and said

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God be merciful to me a sinner Jesus says I tell you this man the tax collector he went down to his house justified just as if I never sinned rather than the

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Pharisee for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled but the one who humbles himself will be exalted now this parable is not just about two different men this is telling us about salvation and condemnation look back with me at verse 9 he told this parable to some right so earlier in the context he is directly talking to a group of Pharisees and Jesus sees the heart of man and exposes their true intentions namely that they are trusting in their own obedience to the

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Mosaic law they are trusting in their righteous works of obedience and here's the key principle if you believe that your obedient works are necessary for salvation then you are trusting in your righteousness you cannot have a divided trust you can't have a little bit of faith in God and a little bit of faith in your own obedience that is impossible

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Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount no one can serve two masters for he will either hate the one and love the other he says you cannot serve

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God and money money represents all of what the world has to offer all the things that perish including your righteousness he says for where your treasure is there your heart your faith will be also and no doubt the

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Pharisees could say well we're not trusting in our own righteousness but you must obey you must obey the righteous requirement of the law you know what

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Jesus would say the Pharisees he would says yeah this this is a people that honors me with their lips they know what to say but I know the heart and your heart is far from me in vain do they worship me and notice how trusting in your own obedience trusting in your own righteousness how this will affect how you treat other people look at verse 9 again he also told this parable to some who trusted themselves that they were righteous and treated others with contempt other good translations say they despised others they look down on everyone else why because legalism produces pride and arrogance when you're trusting in your own accomplishments whether you admit it or not you're gonna look at other people and say man if they could just obey like me this kind of thinking produces a cold deadness towards others no love no grace only heavy -handed legalism that says do better try your best obey this five -step formula bring your muscle in a shovel for some really hard work we learn more about the attitude of the

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Pharisees in the next verses the Pharisee prayed thus God I thank you that I am not like other men

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I fast twice a week I give tithes of all that I get this is not a prayer this is someone boasting in their own accomplishments and he says fasting and he talks about giving tithes surely these are synecdoches that represent the entirety of God's law ceremony after ceremony after ceremony understand the

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Pharisees of the Second Temple Jews they were the most obedient that anyone in the whole world could ever do they are way more obedient than anyone today and yet they were lost verse 13

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Jesus says but the tax collector standing far off would not even lift his eyes to heaven but beat his breasts and said

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God be merciful to me a sinner this man knew that his obedience could never make himself right before God this man knew that his righteousness were like filthy rags this man knew that he was not a good person but a wretched man in need of saving grace how did he respond not with pride not with arrogance but with the heart of faith in humility he said

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God be merciful to me that word merciful is all I mentioned two times in the New Testament it means to make propitiation he's saying

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God you have to be the one to accomplish the work of salvation you have to do it on my behalf

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I can't add any sin -tainted works of obedience on my end that's why

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Jesus says in verse 14 I tell you this man the tax collector he went down to his house justified rather than the

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Pharisee the tax collector was justified before God not trusting in his own works of obedience not trusting in his own righteousness but putting his faith alone for God to make atonement this is a beautiful picture of Jesus Christ when he would one day say to tell us time it is finished paid for in full now the

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Pharisee was justified just not before God Jesus earlier in Luke's account says you are those the

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Pharisees that justify yourself before men but God knows your hearts and so my question for everyone listening is which individual are you are you the

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Pharisee that is trusting in your own righteousness your own obedience to a ceremony believing that that is the thing that is necessary to declare you right before God are you the person that looks down on other people no thinking man if they could just trust and obey like me maybe you're in a church context where you know the leadership looks down on you because you're not obeying like them or are you the one who knows you are a wretched sinner resting in the truth that justification is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ's finished work alone and so with my remaining time you notice

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Mike and I approach this from different angles I wanted to address more of the foundations of the definitions of terms and to be consistent with those as we look at proof text and context is always king

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I have a question I would love for you to answer some of these in the rebuttal time how is baptism a work of God and somehow not also a work that humans participate in I gave you six definitions time which think do you agree disagree and please tell me why

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I appealed to Romans chapter 4 and how Paul is referring maybe you can explain how maybe he's referring to the works of the law and not other ceremonial rights like baptism please tell me how

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I misunderstand the parable of the tax collector and the the Pharisee and how maybe that only refers to wayward

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Jews and no one else thank you Thank You pastor Jeremiah if you're watching online

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I just want to thank you for joining us and remember to Like and subscribe for the channel and also don't forget about the

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Q &A at the end of tonight's debate you'll be able to ask questions online we're gonna have some in person also but if you were online if you could preface your question with a

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Q so that we know you're asking the question and then who you would like to ask the question to either Mike or Jeremiah but if you want to be sure that your question does get asked you can support the ministry through a super chat with your question and so now we will continue on we will transition into your rebuttals each of you will get 15 minutes to respond to each other's opening statement and we will start with the affirmative

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Mike the floor is I will start the clock with with 15 minutes as soon as you begin well with all due respect for an opening statement on the topic of water baptism that was awfully dry yeah no

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I appreciate Jeremiah so I'll get to his questions at the end and probably will address some of them along the way but I do want to start with something that he did say at the end you know referring to Luke chapter 18 and verse 1 or verse 1 verse 9 where Jesus said that or where Luke wrote that Jesus said to certain ones who were trusting upon themselves that they were righteous and were despising others this parable the idea that someone who believes that water baptism is necessary for justification means that someone who submits to water baptism under those terms is trusting upon themselves that they are righteous is something that is totally foreign to what

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I preach Luke chapter 17 in verse 10 and I believe Adam and I talked about this a little bit before the debate

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Luke 17 verse 10 says that when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you say we are unprofitable servants we have done that which was our duty to do and no one who is water baptized believing that that is a condition for justification thinks that they are being such good boys and such good girls that they are meriting their justification before God no they all understand that they are only doing that because Jesus has commanded it and they are only doing it relying wholly upon him and upon his death and his resurrection to save them so I think that that that really is mischaracterizing the position notice what he said about acts 238 before we get into some of his definitions notice what he said about acts 238

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I remember that the exegesis that we did I mean we drilled down and we looked at the words in acts 238 and again

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Peter says repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven and you shall receive the gift of the

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Holy Spirit and he's saying that there that just means as a sign that your sins have been forgiven really is that is that what the language is communicating as a sign that your sins are being forgiven as a sign that you've already received the gift of the

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Holy Spirit is that what the language is communicating and for Peter to then follow those words by saying verse 40 of Acts 2 save yourselves from this corrupt generation and how did they obey that command to save themselves from this corrupt generation they were water baptized and only then were they added to the number of the

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Apostles those who had been saved from that crooked generation now is it really dealing honestly with the text and I'm not accusing

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Jeremiah being a dishonest person I think Jeremiah is a very very sincere person but I don't think he's dealing fairly with this text because I think that what

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Jeremiah has done and notice how he went about his opening statement he basically got into his categories of systematic theology and I am not opposed to systematic theology

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I am all in favor of systematic theology because systematic theology believes that God's Word all every word of the 66 books though written by about 40 different human penman ultimately have one divine mind behind them and so there's a consistency truth doesn't contradict truth is consistent and so systematic theology tries to find the consistent truth across the whole canon of Scripture and I think that's a wonderful thing that is what

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I try to do but how do you arrive at systematic theology the way that you arrive at your system is by going verse by verse by verse by verse and you do careful exegesis and so I want you to see that what

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Jeremiah is doing is arriving at his view of these baptismal verses from all the verses though don't talk about water baptism and only after he's looked at all the other verses that don't talk about water baptism does he then come and look at the water baptism verses and think well how can

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I make this fit and again I'm not I'm not accusing Jeremiah of being a bad person or being a dishonest person

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I believe he's a very sincere person but I think it's kind of like you know are y 'all like me you've got a cabinet full of all these

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Tupperware containers and over time you lose the lids you don't know what lid goes with what and so you get out of Tupperware container and you look for a lid that matches and you put the lid on it and you can you you push it down and it works except for one corner and I mean you struggle you just try to force it you try to force it well listen if the lid doesn't fit over the whole lip of the container it's the wrong lid if it won't go over one corner it's the wrong lid and I would suggest you that the systematic theology that Jeremiah is using it's the wrong lid because it's hanging up on this corner it doesn't deal fairly with the text okay so Jeremiah has taken us to Romans 4 and Romans 4 is a great verse and I don't have a whole lot of time to do this so I'm sure we'll get into more of this in the cross -examination but he's taken us to Romans 4 and and you know he has given us his definition for faith and works in Romans 4 and you know we're justified by faith we're not justified by works and he has come along and he said well you know water baptism is a work that Paul is saying has nothing to do with our justification now

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I would suggest and we may I'm sure in the cross -examination will do this I would suggest that the works that Paul is saying has nothing to do with justification in Romans chapters 3 & 4 are works of the law of Moses and I want to prove that to you tonight

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I'm not just trying to make that assertion I think that I can prove that to you tonight and I believe that when Paul says that we're justified by faith

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I believe that in Paul's definition of faith he's including water baptism now

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I want to get into Romans 4 but right now I want us to look at a couple of baptismal texts and I just want you to see that in Paul's thinking he is excluding baptism from the category of works that have nothing to do with salvation and he is including baptism in faith consider for instance

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Titus chapter 3 Titus chapter 3 and we want to look at verses 4 to 7 we're told but when the kindness and philanthropy of God our

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Savior appeared not by righteous works which we had done but according to his mercy he saved us through the washing of regeneration we want to come back and look at that and renewing of the

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Holy Spirit whom he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our

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Savior in order that being justified or having been justified by grace by his grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life now you may be wondering where is baptism in that text well

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I believe baptism is in that text remember that phrase that I asked you to look at lutru pollin ganassi us that word lutru it's a word that meant bath that's what it meant is bath and in the ancient world it was a synonym for baptism in fact

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I'd like to read for you from the book of Sirach chapter 34 verse 25 and here's what

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Sirach writes when someone is and the word is baptized when someone is washed it's baptized ominous from touching a corpse and again touches it what is he profited by his back or excuse me and touches it again what is he profited by his bath and the word translated bath there is lutro and so in that passage

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Paul the the been Sirach is using baptids ominous baptizo baptized as a synonym with lutron with bath and that is the very word that we find here in Titus chapter 3 and verse 5 and if you look at scholarly lexicons like be dag

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Jeremiah acknowledges be dag be dag defines this is a baptismal text and so what

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Paul is saying here is again not by works which we have done in righteousness but according to his mercy he saved us through the bath of regeneration through baptism and renewing of the

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Holy Spirit whom he poured upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior in order that having been justified by the grace of that one we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life now notice

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Paul explicitly excludes baptism from that category of works that have nothing to do with our salvation

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Paul X explicitly associates baptism with God's mercy and with God's grace and he says that it is when we are water baptized when we go to the bath of regeneration and renewing of the

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Holy Spirit that we are made new that we are justified that we become heirs according to the hope of eternal life and so however you want to define works in Romans chapter 4 that Paul says we are not saved by that category of works that definition of works cannot include baptism because Paul explicitly excludes baptism from the category of works and Paul explicitly includes baptism with faith consider

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Colossians chapter 2 Colossians chapter 2 and with four minutes

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I'm not going to have time to really dig into this deeply and so I know some questions are going to be remaining that Jeremiah is not going to let pass so he'll hold me accountable but in Colossians 2 and verses 11 through 13 we're told in whom you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands in the putting off of the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ having been buried with him in baptism in which also you were raised with him through faith in the working of God who raised him from the dead and you being dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your flesh he made you alive with him forgiving all your trespasses now

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Jeremiah is going to come along and he's going to say well baptism in verse 12 is not water baptism because he's going to associate he's going to identify it

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I should say he's going to identify with circumcision in verse 11 and circumcision in verse 11 is explicitly that which is done without hands

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I don't have time to really prove all this now fully but I would say that the circumcision in verse 11 and the baptism in verse 12 they're associated because the verb you were circumcised in Aris verb verse 11 and and having been buried which is an

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Aris participle in verse 12 there's a relationship between the two circumcision happens when you're baptized when you're baptized but I would say that the circumcision of verse 11 is not identical to the baptism in verse 12 it happens when you're baptized but the circumcision in verse 11 as Paul will also say in Romans chapter 2 verses 28 and 29 it is the work of the

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Holy Spirit in the heart it is regeneration being wrought in your heart and it's simultaneous with baptism it happens in baptism but it is not baptism so arguing that the circumcision is without hands cannot disprove that this is water baptism in verse 12 he'll also try to argue that the word the noun that's used here baptism in verse 12 is baptize moss and he's going to argue well you know that refers to Jewish immersions because the noun in the

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New Testament for Christian baptism is baptize ma but listen those terms are there they're different but there's there's a distinction without a difference

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BDAC will define baptize moss in this text to be

01:00:01

Christian baptism and in fact if you go to Josephus Josephus in his antiquities of the

01:00:08

Jews book 18 when he talks about the ministry of John the Baptist he uses baptize moss and baptist is for John's baptism and in the

01:00:18

New Testament passages like mark 1 for Luke 3 3 the word that's used there is baptism ah so the terms are used interchangeably this is water baptism and by the way what in the text would make us think this is not water baptism when they heard this they would think water baptism because that's what they all experienced

01:00:37

Colossians and Ephesians are sister epistles and Paul makes the point that a source of our unity is that there's one baptism that baptism that Jesus commanded in the

01:00:47

Great Commission necessary to become a disciple last to the end of the age this is water baptism and notice what

01:00:53

Paul says about water baptism having been buried with him in baptism in which also you were raised through faith in the working of God who raised him from the dead so Paul explicitly associates baptism with faith and he explicitly excludes baptism from that category of works that have nothing to do with our salvation so if you take

01:01:23

Paul's epistles as a whole Jeremiah's argument from Romans chapter 4 it doesn't work it cannot work or Paul is contradicting himself now

01:01:37

I want to answer your questions Jeremiah drill me later Mike thank you we are going to now move to the negative as Jeremiah has 15 minutes for his rebuttal

01:01:51

Jeremiah the floor is yours I'll start the clock as soon as you begin okay this is so exciting this is where it's fun because it's kind of freehand you know you take notes and then you get to address what was brought up and Mike I just want to tell you thank you for being respectful this is

01:02:14

I actually really enjoy this we get to see where clash comes into effect and so I want to try to follow the flow from his opening into some of his rebuttal when he addressed the

01:02:26

Great Commission there's actually a lot of agreement there yes Jesus has been given all authority on heaven and earth and he is commissioning his apostles to go and make disciples no dispute the presupposition though is what a disciple is right it's a learner we see throughout the

01:02:42

Gospels there are disciples that are fake right they're just kind of externally following along and it's nothing for them to follow him no more in John chapter 8 we know what true disciples look like right they abide in the

01:02:54

Word of God and they trust Jesus from the heart not just merely externally there was not a lot that I have to say with the

01:03:01

Great Commission other than the presupposition that he made that this is actually talking about the wind justification happens we didn't get a lot of terminology defined from Mike with all due respect you begged to the question you associated certain meanings to words and then just read the proof text and said see it's right there this has to be talking about the ceremony of baptism you got to demonstrate that you do that by starting with words in their immediate context and then you look at progressively the the next amount of the context and then you do weigh that in with canonical context

01:03:35

Paul would say the whole counsel of God I want to spend most of my time addressing acts 238

01:03:42

I liked the the passage that he started with we'll just say Peter preached his sermon right the scathing rebuke to of how the this

01:03:51

Jewish audience killed the Messiah right they killed the Lord of glory and so of course they were going to be going to be cut to the heart right in verse 37 and then they say brothers

01:04:04

Adelphos what shall we do this is where we begin to part ways with the context because this is a

01:04:11

Jewish people this is important for the context it's not the Gentiles that come later in Acts chapter 10 why is this important because they're not happy and skippy saying oh how can we be saved we're so happy now even though we killed the

01:04:25

Son of Glory this declaration of saying what must we do they are saying all is lost all hope is gone we deserve the the fullest amount of cursings from the

01:04:37

Torah okay they are not happy they are actually pronouncing judgment on themselves and so acts 238 is so beautiful because Peter is letting know that these

01:04:48

Israelites know that there is hope in what they should do in response to the sermon that was preached now we're gonna get into the verb tenses and I love it and he's actually challenged me through social media and us interacting and I want to go all the way into the

01:05:04

Greek here I want to tell you on the surface level gotta define our terms there are two imperatives that mean two different things it's not hard to do when you know what repent means and when you know what be baptized means and so he is saying repent what does that mean change your mind it's not just a mere assent to facts remember how

01:05:25

I defined faith earlier that's one of those terms that he begged the question right he read some verses didn't tell you what faith means

01:05:32

I did faith is internal trust from the heart that God knows right man we don't know if someone has real trust even when they say it but it has to work out and we can judge somebody based on their works

01:05:44

God knows that way before that actually takes place so when he says repent this is where it gets really good because there is so much context with how the the author

01:05:54

Luke is using the word repent when you look back in his gospel and Luke 24 verse 47 he associates repentance with the forgiveness of sins and that's without the context of baptism okay we can appeal to synecdoches and it doesn't say that but we're supposed to speak with the

01:06:10

Bible speaks I'm saying let Luke build his argument repentance is the thing that is always associated with forgiveness of sins why because we are justified by a repentant faith a loving faith apart from our works and so another way of demonstrating this is look in Peter's second sermon in chapter 3 verse 6 look at verse 16 he says in the name right the author of life whom

01:06:36

God raised from the dead in his name by faith in his name and if you look down to verse 19 he says repent therefore and turn back that your sins may be blotted out as we continue to make our way along the book of Acts it's always repentance that's associated with forgiveness of sins and what do people do in light of repentance they get baptized yes this is a command for our justification repent be justified have your have your sins forgiven and another assumption that he has is it's your past sins last time

01:07:08

I text Jesus Jesus is a perfect Savior God sees the entirety of your life and when you look to Jesus in repentant faith all of your sins past present and future goes back in time to the cross and he forgives it in full and in exchange you get the righteousness of Jesus covering your account okay we see this being demonstrated in the book of Acts repentant faith they're two sides of the same coin like he knows we've been actually a little transparent

01:07:35

I've had content online and he knows that that's a strong case right and so we'll look at the

01:07:40

Gentiles in a minute because we know there's gonna be strong continuity between the Jews and the Gentiles later with Cornelius and so with the repent command we already know this entails forgiveness of sins and then he gives a second kind of command that is different what is baptismus right what does that mean you can say is this really a picture go look at BDAC go look at the lexicons that say this signifies a relationship with God what is a picture it's not the actual thing it represents the actual thing so I'm not saying it's as a baptism is just a mere picture no this is a sanctifying command right that unifies the body that grows us in our our holiness with the triune

01:08:22

God it's beautiful it's wonderful for the one who has already been justified by faith and it's a repentant faith and so yes there are different kinds of commands and so it's not hard to show you

01:08:34

Peter used different words look him up look at this holistically with the entirety of Scripture I want us to continue to make this down or go down acts 238 into 39 but he says for the forgiveness of your sins now as Mike knows this this is an adverbial modifying phrase you have to develop from the context which independent clause is this modifying is it the first independent clause or it's repent right in this third second person plural and I would say yes we know this with the overwhelming context that's what this would be modifying like a parenthetical thought repent be baptized right and as he gets into third clause the purpose clause he says for the gift of the

01:09:18

Holy Spirit that's having your sins washed away that happens when you have faith a repentant faith in the perfect Savior and what should you do it's as though Peter is saying be justified repent and if you do that sincerely here's what you ought to do

01:09:32

Jews you ought to be baptized like he brought out I actually really appreciate this point there is a understanding of what ceremonial baths already look like in the

01:09:41

Old Testament I wouldn't just appeal to the intertestinal period with the book of Sirach I think this proves my case this goes back further into the

01:09:49

Torah being bathed in water this always signified you do something physically to represent spiritual realities when you go back to Yom Kippur in Leviticus chapter 16 that the

01:10:04

Levites they were to be bathed in water how this will this signified the spiritual reality that they need forgiveness of sins that's why they sacrificed a lamb that didn't actually forgive sin right the book of Hebrews tells us and what else do they do they sent the goat into the wilderness to represent the removal of sins that's the context and so when

01:10:24

Peter gives the second command to be baptized the Jews already knew what that meant their identification in the name of Jesus Christ meant they were forsaking their second temple

01:10:36

Judaism that's why there's an apologetics with the book of Hebrews saying don't neglect such a great salvation don't neglect the new covenant that the

01:10:45

Old Covenant promised and pictured and pointed to so it's not hard to say two different commands two different effects be justified be sanctified because if you love

01:10:56

Christ that's what you desire to do and so that's the major thrust I do want to jump down to verse 41 and we can get well you know what verse 40 he says save yourselves well of course he's saying this should be your response from this crooked and evil generation how do you respond be justified by faith a repentant faith what should you do next be baptized right this ceremonial work of obedience and then verse 41

01:11:21

I know he doesn't like this but it says so those who receive the word how by a repentant faith what was indicative of those that receive

01:11:28

King Jesus by a repentant faith well they identify with him in being obedient to works and so maybe

01:11:37

I didn't address all the things that you brought out there tried to and so I want to argue real quick though when we look at Acts chapter 2 turn with me to Acts chapter 10 because we have to see these as strong continuity you're not going to have a divided church with the

01:11:53

Jews and then on the other hand have a different systematic or a different understanding with the Gentiles this is why it's easy to show it's a repentant faith that produces or initiates the forgiveness of sins the gift of the

01:12:06

Holy Spirit Peter preaches another sermon at Cornelius's household at the very end verse 43 he says to him

01:12:12

Jesus all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes this is a repentant faith

01:12:18

I mind you that receives forgiveness of sins through his name did he really forget to mention and be baptized no that's that's important for a

01:12:27

Jewish settings with mikvahs they don't understand a pool of water signified and pictured these spiritual realities the

01:12:36

Gentiles don't have that background knowledge and so he tells them the the thing that forgives your sin in a moment and Paul would say oh that's by faith that's not by your works and he goes in I want you to pay attention to how the

01:12:48

Holy Spirit moves about as Peter was still saying these things the Holy Spirit was already at work convicting their heart and fell on those all who heard the word remember received the word how by believing and what happens as a result we're about to see and the believers from among the circumcised had come with Peter and they were amazed because the gift of the

01:13:10

Holy Spirit was poured out even on Gentiles I would submit to you in the same way how do you receive the gift of the

01:13:16

Holy Spirit repentance and the perfect Savior Savior what do you do in light of your repentant faith to get baptized that's what believers do you're justified by faith apart from works and then you live your life in sanctification for the rest of the world to see that we are disciples of Christ and notice how they respond they were extolling

01:13:37

God right speaking in tongues praising him and notice you don't have unbelievers being able to praise

01:13:43

God God would not receive that right and yet Luke is saying they're extolling

01:13:48

God and an already heart change happened they are believers they are justified declare right before God and now they can truly praise him and then

01:13:57

Peter says can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people who received the

01:14:02

Holy Spirit just as we have they had the Holy Spirit they had forgiveness of sins they have not been baptized yet so I'm wanting you to see

01:14:13

Luke is actually saying that there's a strong continuity between Acts chapter 2 and Acts chapter 10 we got to understand context that Jewish caught audience matters when he says be justified and sanctified he is showing them how they must count the cost and so with about two and a half minutes left

01:14:30

I want to address some of the things that he said in Titus chapter 3 so if you look at Titus chapter 3 we already know that this is being addressed to Christians and at the tail end of chapter 2 talking about Jesus Christ who gave himself for us to redeem us from all unlawlessness to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works look at chapter 3 verse 1 reminding them to be submissive to the rulers and authorities to be obedient right in our sanctification ready for every good work notice the charge do good works be sanctified obey why not to earn salvation or to keep your salvation but to declare it to the world this is a little bit of that context as we look at verse 4 but when the goodness and the loving -kindness of God our

01:15:15

Savior appeared he saved us not because of works I would like for him to define that Ergon or God's of my activity of any kind deed action displayed your effort tell us what that means done by us in righteousness what is righteousness moral upright behavior was

01:15:35

Jesus baptism righteous yeah he fulfilled all righteousness baptism is an act of righteousness guess what that that tells us that that is not the mechanism that declares us right before God that's a part of your works of righteousness and obedience but according to his own mercy and washing of regeneration and renewal in the

01:15:55

Holy Spirit I get that BDAG says that this is a ceremonial bath but in what context

01:16:01

I say yeah it's a bath by the Holy Spirit that's the context we are in the new covenant made with better signs and better seals than the old covenant

01:16:10

I don't think he likes me appealing to systematic and biblical theology sorry we have to look at all this in context

01:16:17

Paul's not going to contradict himself so I can mention just kind of in closing

01:16:23

Colossians chapter 2 I'm really glad that he brought this up because once again you cannot beg the question right this this is a

01:16:32

Jewish converted audience right so when he says bad baptism or baptisms he is talking about Jewish washings they would have understood the point that Paul is make

01:16:42

I think baptism is relevant and they're realizing that's not the thing that washes away your past sins so time is running out hopefully the cross

01:16:51

X will get a little fiery but a good fire and hopefully we get down to the bottom let's define terms let's not beg the question and let's look at proof text in light of context thank you so much well thank you

01:17:05

Jeremiah we are getting ready to go into a five -minute intermission but I want to remind those of you that are online this is a great time for you to go into the chat put a cue in front of your question and the name of who you want to ask the question to and we will try and get to as many of them as we can at the end during our

01:17:24

Q &A and just so you know a super chat question will be preferred and we will make sure to get to your super chat question that's a good way to be able to support the apologetic dog and to be able to get your question answered and those of you that are here with us in person we're gonna have mics up at that Q &A and you will also have a chance so if you have questions as we go throughout write those down remember them come up and be ready to be able to ask each of them a question so we are now going to go into a five -minute intermission there is coffee available we also want to say a special thank you to the bearded sergeant coffee for providing coffee for us tonight for everyone that is in person if you're online you missed out so you're just gonna have to go to the link that pastor

01:18:10

Jeremiah has and the apologetic dog on his channel for them and every time you buy there at the bearded sergeant coffee you're supporting the apologetic dog but they are also supporting veterans every time you purchase from them so I encourage you to go and do that and for those of you that are here you get to enjoy it let's go ahead and take a five -minute break now alrighty we're getting ready to to begin again and we're going to go into our section of the cross examinations and each gentleman will get 25 minutes to ask questions to their opponent they can use their allotted time however they see fit but it goes without being said

01:24:07

I know you will but keep it cordial gentlemen you have thus far this has been a great a great start for this we will start with the affirmative

01:24:16

Mike you may begin and as soon as I get the clock up and ready we will be ready to go and I will start as soon as you begin testing this is my fun too my that's on I muted it during the

01:24:45

I saw a naked gun and so I don't like to leave my my mic on during break periods you know so anyway so a lot of questions that I'd like to ask let's begin

01:25:03

I give I gave you a list of copies from BDAG thank you and I've got

01:25:10

I got BDAG in the car if you want to just verify that this is BDAG but I think you you'll trust that this is BDAG so I've got the pages numbered and for those who don't know

01:25:19

BDAG stands for Bauer Denker Art and Gingrich it is the most respected lexicon of the

01:25:26

Greek New Testament and early Christian literature it's used by everybody I mean regardless of denomination regardless of whether it's in a secular university setting

01:25:37

BDAG is the standard and so both Jeremiah and I have referred to BDAG so if you would

01:25:42

Jeremiah look at page three and I've got it numbered all right and you can take the clip off if you want to take the clip off the top might be easier to turn but page three is a copy from BDAG of their entries on baptizo and on the second page baptizma and then baptizmas yep yep yep there and so yes so multiple times you have made the point that baptism cannot be necessary for salvation because works can yes sure so the reason why

01:26:17

I didn't want to do a debate that says just bad does is baptism necessary for our salvation because that's ambiguous oh sure and so that's why for justification yes so and but that's where me and you you know where our disagreements are but I believe baptism is

01:26:34

South is salvific in terms of our sanctification yes it's not just sure no

01:26:39

I appreciate you pointing that out and I am apologize for being unclear on the language because in my circles right when they think of baptism necessary for salvation they mean initial justification right yeah so anyway so you've said several times that baptism cannot be necessary for initial justification because it is by definition a ceremony and thus a work yep all right so here's

01:27:04

BDAG which which you've used to gain that definition from and so number two yep definition defines baptizo as to use water in a right for purpose of renewing or establishing a relationship with God plunge dip wash baptize and then we go through real quick what does this continue to say could you keep reading it the transliteration baptize signifies a ceremonial character and that's where I would emphasize yes signifies a ceremony thank you and so that's my whole core of my rebuttal awesome it signifies these realities sure and I want you to time so you just cut me off no no you're good you're good please

01:27:46

I preach I actually when you referenced Syrac we do see coming out of the intertestinal period proselyte baptisms which presupposes the

01:27:56

Jewish understanding of mikvahs pools of water and so I'm saying when you go back to Leviticus Exodus and Deuteronomy we see the ceremonial nature signifying spiritual truths that aren't true in the moment themselves like at Yom Kippurin where there's multiple ongoing days of fulfillment because they cannot actually forgive sin that's when we get the

01:28:20

Levitical priest being totally bathed into water great so on your your point about proselyte baptism coming out of the interstitial period your information is a little bit off there because there's no firm evidence of that until after the

01:28:34

New Testament time that's why I would not I'm not arguing about ceremonial it's interesting because I wouldn't have appealed to that to make my case now there are a lot of scholarship that would strongly make that case that's why

01:28:43

I would go to like the Torah to show that there's a backdrop even to John's about right but I'm talking about proselyte baptism you know that that there's no documented evidence until after New Testament times but but to your point you're right so so BDAG does point out it signifies the ceremonial character right so the question is what does

01:29:05

BDAG mean when it says that so this is where I would contend they're talking about yes typically baptizo means to be immersed into water and I would say context always gets to determine how and when that looks like so we'll essentially make it to Acts 238 but I'm saying that magnifies the reality that that bath is not merely an empty sign and symbol something is happening but in the context of a believers sanctification so we look for our definitions here but we have to look at the context of how the

01:29:37

New Testament utilizes this definition and if it uses the Holy Spirit we have to talk about what that means you know so that's that's

01:29:45

I don't preach no no very very good so so we continue on in the in the entry because if we want to know what

01:29:52

BDAG means whenever it says that baptism signifies the ceremonial character we need to continue reading absolutely definition right and so we go down you work through the definitions and at C you come to a definition of baptism in the context of the passages we're looking at right so it says of the

01:30:20

Christian sacrament of initiation after Jesus death could you define sacrament for me yeah so typically this means a means of grace but you have to establish what that means

01:30:32

I would deny that this is a regenerating means of grace or justifying means of grace it would be a sanctifying means okay so do you know who is responsible for BDAG the four gentlemen that you talked about uh -huh

01:30:46

Bauer I struggle saying the names that's why I did the shorthand but Bauer Art Art Ganger Gingrich something like that forgive me no you're awesome yeah

01:30:56

Bauer Ganger Art and Gingrich okay so so Bauer is the one who initially came up with the lexicon right he's the

01:31:03

German gentleman and then in the 19 1947

01:31:09

I believe it was the hundredth anniversary of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod the Lutheran Church commissioned

01:31:16

Art and Gingrich to translate Bauer's work into English okay so Bauer is a

01:31:24

Lutheran and hey you got to watch out Gingrich is a Lutheran you gotta watch out for the Lutherans right and Danker who's responsible you know initially it was

01:31:34

BAG because Danker wasn't involved and then it was BAGD because Danker stepped in and then now it's

01:31:44

BDAG Bauer Danker Art and Gingrich Danker is a Lutheran okay so from a

01:31:50

Lutheran's perspective understanding that Lutherans primarily are the ones and a Lutheran had his fingers on this last what does sacrament mean to a

01:31:58

Lutheran baptismal regeneration that's why I would say every time you appeal to the

01:32:04

Greek lexicon you're taking your worldview with you including Lutherans and everybody has presuppositions and traditions and so I'm able to ask okay a ceremonial bath into what context and I would say

01:32:17

God who has the sole infallible rule his word gets to contextualize these definitions does that make sense so I get that he's

01:32:26

Lutheran and I'm saying he's wrong not on defining the ceremonial bath I think he's wrong about the immersion of the

01:32:34

Holy Spirit with the ceremony because that contradicts so many scriptures so we can't we can't trust

01:32:40

BDAG then because it's a Lutheran in this regard okay so forgive me if I misspoke I think he's doing good on the definitions okay it's his systematic theology that he's presupposing with these terms so whenever we look at this we interpret it different I'm saying it's a good definition but it's and that what they already says it signifies okay so so to a

01:32:59

Lutheran though sacrament doesn't mean the grace of sanctification it means the grace of justification and regeneration and regeneration to which we both would reject their entire theology right okay as a whole you wouldn't be no no

01:33:15

I'm not in favor of Lutheran theology I am in favor of regeneration happening in baptism and justification and justification yeah

01:33:21

I'm saying and there's many things that you would reject with Lutheran theology well of course of course but but to a

01:33:28

Lutheran sacrament here is a means the grace of justification and regeneration and regeneration yeah absolutely yeah and which

01:33:36

I believe my position I mean I haven't been able to state it fully because we only have so much time but it's that justification and regeneration happen in baptism but but be dag according to the meanings of the ones who wrote this say not only that baptism it signifies the ceremonial character etc but also that it's a sacrament meaning by that that it is the means of regenerating and justifying grace so what's the

01:34:05

Lutheran fellow in the acronym what's his name well Bauer aren't and anchor

01:34:11

I'd have three of them sitting right here I'd say fellows I have a question I want to go back earlier to your definition that it signifies right and I'd say let's go to Ergon and in guards of our gods of mine when you tell we will in a minute well

01:34:23

I'm saying to the Lutherans I would say you have to harmonize these things within a systematic biblical theology and I don't think they could do that consistently with their own definitions envy dag okay well we'll go to we'll go to be dags that entry on Ergon here tomorrow and maybe the verb to yeah do you believe that those men are reliable in their analysis of the

01:34:47

Greek New Testament they're reliable but not infallible absolutely and I know you agree with that's why we don't we don't both just say hey let's be

01:34:55

Lutheran right you know I'd say so we'd say hey they are reliable to a degree and how I look at is they have really good definitions that have to be understood in the context of various passages but you understand when you pull out definitions in B dag it's not it's not enough just to read the head definition because they go and they get one actual definition that's why

01:35:15

I had you keep reading this usage is key that's right it's not that these words are floating out here with just intrinsic values it's how people use them yeah so you have to go to the you go to the the place where they mention these words in these passages and see what they say there okay so let's let's drop the whole we agree okay in principle sure sure so and by the way you criticized my use of Syrac slightly but how do we arrive at the meaning of words yeah it's by usage right yeah it was a slight critique of saying we can go deeper with the

01:35:52

Torah to get that understanding so honestly I'm over here saying there is a rich history and domain of Baptizo so it was a slight a little bit of sauce but honestly there is usage and we do look at extra biblical sources not just not as infallible which you would agree but but but you look at them to see how the words are used to help understand the meanings of words and then you carry that information over to these other texts and I want to compliment you because usually my interactions with Church Christ tell me what the

01:36:19

Bible says it means what it means don't give me the Greek don't give me the history give me acts 238 and you're not doing that and I really appreciate but I will say you know

01:36:28

I'm not worthy to lose the sandals of many of our men in Churches of Christ who just have absolute expertise with the original language like said

01:36:37

I appreciate the type of dialogue we have because here in the south I don't get that and so through our interaction you've had you've made me take a pause and say

01:36:46

I do want to distinguish kind of you know in the four different sects of the Church of Christ that your moderate right -leaning

01:36:53

I want to honor that I just want to make it clear I just spilled water on myself so when I stand up Jeremiah didn't make me pee myself okay so just just make sure that's clear okay all right that's never happened to Babe DeBoer has it hey did you get immersed in it yeah no no no

01:37:10

I were reading a Lutheran here I just I mean I just got sprinkled I hear us all right but it is interesting though that a

01:37:15

Lutheran even though Lutherans writing this defines baptism as plunge dip wash baptized and will in other places here we'll talk about it being immersion so that's significant and tells us that it signifies a relationship with so let's keep on going down here okay because we're getting to the point so so I got something highlighted okay and could you could you read what's highlighted there yes so we're talking about the word ice right what he said no no we're talking about the word

01:37:43

Baptizo this is the entry on Baptizo okay but talk getting to acts 238 though that's highlighted yes okay yeah

01:37:49

I'm really I was just saying that this is ice in actually 38 when it says for the forgiveness of sins what's highlighted is the purpose given that it yeah

01:37:58

I read the whole entry please or I mean yeah I will if you want me to oh yeah go with with the purpose given ace a pheasant and then he just gives the the

01:38:07

T for the earth at the towel for the article tone I'm already own acts 238 okay now what does he mean by that so this gets into the word ice which

01:38:19

I'm really glad you printed off like this because I have the PDF of this save this is how it looks I'm like ah it's familiar you know

01:38:25

I mean and so we're asking the question in what way does baptism serve a purpose purpose in the context of forgiveness of sins sticking with the definitions that be that gives us and so you know just as well as me that when you look at the full phrase of acts 238 there's three clauses right

01:38:46

I've been working on my Greek a little bit to your recommendation I was like he's right here look this up but there's three independent clauses there right yeah yeah three independent clauses and then we get an adverbial modifying phrase which is do you know for the forgiveness of your sins that is that is a preposition it's a preposition but it's a it's an adverbial modifying preposition and so when we look at the definition yeah what's the purpose what's the context what is it modifying because it cannot be both commands now

01:39:22

I want to offer something to you and you just cut me off right I'm saying since it cannot be both independent phrases where we're looking at the word repent all like you said in some of your videos or the next phrase that in some way is indicative of the first it's being drawn out of the group so the question is is for the forgiveness of your sins the purpose given the purpose of which is it modifying okay either repent or baptism this is what

01:39:47

I'd like to offer the context in Luke 24 Acts chapter 3

01:39:54

Acts chapter 5 Acts chapter 8 Acts chapter 10 and many more show us that it's always repentance is what is associated with forgiveness of sins and I would say that's a strong case where this modifying phrase is for the first independent clause

01:40:10

I would continue to build the argument to say the third clause that stands on its own and you will receive the gift of the

01:40:17

Holy Spirit you and I agree that's the forgiveness of sin so you're saying that what what Peter is meaning is repent for the forgiveness of your sins and every one of you be baptized a little bit different I would say it's more like a parenthetical thought he's saying repent and if we're getting into the meeting meaning he's saying for the forgiveness of sins and you will receive the gift of the

01:40:38

Holy Spirit and you need to be baptized because they're sanctifying okay but but but for the forgiveness of your sins as a fest and tone of Marty on whom own goes with met an eye

01:40:48

Sata yes okay is that the way that Danker took it as a Lutheran of course they wouldn't want to take that so I mean no

01:40:56

I would say this right right it's just telling us the purpose given right is a modifying phrase they don't give it oh they don't tell us which independent clause so he does

01:41:06

I believe I've got in here to his entry on met an IO which is the word translated you know met an eye

01:41:14

Sata repents okay and you know what he doesn't do in the entry on met an eye Sata say with the purpose given ace of fest and tone of Marty on whom own so he wouldn't have to for me to make my case okay but but here this is the entry on what baptizo yes and it's connection with acts 238 and what does he say the purpose of baptizo is here he tells us for the purpose given but he doesn't tell us which freight which which clause that's modified what but but he includes it with baptizo yes so what is what is he including the purpose the purpose here's the thing the positional phrase with he does not tell us where in acts 238 even though he's talking about baptism it also talks about repentance this is what you can't do to grammar you have to go to the context of acts chapter 2 you can't tell me all

01:41:58

Lutheran would have meant it this way this is the entry on baptizo this is not the entry on metanoeo but it says he says here in the entry on baptizo that with purpose given for the forgiveness of sins ace of fest and tone of Marty on whom so if you heard him opening statement even though I think

01:42:16

I'm making a strong case that within the the semantic range of acts 238 this is a modifying phrase which

01:42:23

I think you can clearly show that it's tethered to repentance but for the sake of argument I well and I don't think it works because if you say it can't be both modified or it can't be both clauses and if it goes to baptism then you can have people that don't repent that obey the second command and it doesn't work but here's what

01:42:42

I would say even if I concede that even if I can see that to these Lutherans I would say it signifies in a relationship with God yeah and and for them what they understand by signify is it's a sacrament and the

01:42:54

Lutheran understanding of a sacrament is that it conveys the grace of regeneration and just and I would take them to their own definitions of terms and show how they're being inconsistent so B dag

01:43:03

I mean just just for the record it's clear B dag says the purpose is ace of Fez and tone of Marty on whom oh right they believe as Lutherans and that means so that your sins may be forgiven right and I would say they as Lutherans not in terms of just the the bare definitions here prove my case that that baptizo signifies a relationship with God what you're presupposing is that's the win and I'm saying this is a different command this is a modifying phrase and I do not believe because of what the scripture tells us that it modifies baptism it's modifying the repentance oh okay so so just just for clarity are you saying that that B dag has just totally miscommunicated and they've included with baptizo the purpose for baptizo is so that your sins may be forgiven ace a festin tone of morning moon or are you saying that Danker is wrong in including this with no

01:44:02

I think you're wrong with applying their definition I think you were wrong

01:44:07

I think if I was talking with them we me and the Lutheran would find a lot of common ground with saying hey do you agree that this is an adverbial modifying phrase you would have to demonstrate this definition which signifies which

01:44:19

I'll I'll re -emphasize because that's you're not representing what I'm saying when I say it signifies that reality it's indicative of what repentant believers do what do they do they get baptized like later in the text says in Acts chapter 2 they were baptized right in the indicative and let me just let me do it

01:44:38

I mean I want to stay here for a second because because you're stumbling on it okay but but I want to I want us to understand you know because he doesn't define what ace a festin tone of Marty on who moan it means here okay so go to page five and now this is just a partial part of the entry on ace because you understand it occurs over 1700 times in the

01:45:02

Greek Testament so you can't print it all out okay but but notice under number four a marker of goals involving effective abstract suitability aspects into two okay and then we

01:45:14

I've got this highlighted you drop down to F to denote purpose in order to two okay and then

01:45:21

I've got this highlighted yep you want me to read it or would you like to read it I'll read it this time okay for the forgiveness of your sins so that sins might be forgiven he gives the

01:45:30

Greek phrase and then read all the passages please Matthew 26 28 mark or yeah mark 1 for Luke 3 3 acts 238 okay so so what

01:45:40

Danker means here then in Baptizo with ace of festin tone of Marty on who moan it's just what he said right here right which is for forgiveness of sins so that sins may be forgiven okay again back back to Baptizo it's it's the same way what

01:45:57

I understand I understand but you're stumbling over it I appreciate so so and I mean that in good

01:46:03

Christian yeah well you know I can't imagine we would agree on this right yeah I mean but but but just to be clear

01:46:09

Danker does not give in his interim metanoeo the purpose as so that your sins may be forgiven

01:46:18

I believe you have to be you have to repent for your sins to be forgiven but he does give the purpose for Baptizo in acts 238 as so that your sins may be forgiven now how grammatically do you make that break because because that I mean the passage says again repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven and you shall receive the gift of the

01:46:46

Holy Spirit so how do you how do you make the break and try to find that for the forgiveness of sins which

01:46:51

Danker links up with baptism how do you say that it's not linked to baptism from the text don't give me systematic theology and I love systematic theology but from the text grammatically give it to me grammatically it signifies and you have to prove contextually what that's modifying and that signify is

01:47:11

Danker's word and we see we see that Danker by signify by using the word signify and ceremony associating it with sacrament and saying it's for the forgiveness of sins he doesn't mean that it's an empty ceremony that can convey no grace right which is a presupposition that says that it's an empty ceremony if the

01:47:31

Holy Spirit indwells a believer it's not it it's not an empty ceremony and I would point out that I agree that this is for the forgiveness of sins but you have to make the biblical case in the context of what that is modifying and I would say so we're talking about baptism it signifies these beautiful realities that believers repented and are demonstrating that repentance before the

01:47:53

Apostles so grammatically how how do you get a crucifixion tone hamartion humone separated from its nearest verb baptist theta yeah and you get it all the way back to the first verb in the statement metta noisetta how do you how do you separate it from baptism and you get it all the way back to repentance when it's right there near it and Danker very easily when you understand that it's not an independent clause it's modifying something you have to make the case of biblically with the definitions that they give that signifies repentance so it just can't mean that there's nothing there's nothing grammatically that's a presupposition

01:48:34

I think what what grammatically in the text makes you separate it from but I've said this many times and you just don't like it because this is your slam -dunk case

01:48:44

I'm saying repentance and baptism definitionally going to these same same definitions mean different things you have to prove from the context what this is modifying you can't just say what's the nearest verb it might do that language is flexible and so I'm saying is in the context it's always repentance and so what's gonna hurt you later is in other contexts where baptism comes way later you have to throw up the get out of jail free card with synecdoches that don't work justification has always been by a repentant faith this is an attempt to shoehorn works into being made right before God so there's nothing there's no grammatical point it's just you're assuming that by Danker's definition of baptism signifying the ceremony that they can't convey the grace of justification there's nothing in the text that can

01:49:39

I can I answer that briefly go ahead yeah yes the question no it's interesting we spent 15 minutes same question and so what's beautiful is we did look at definitions and the definitions don't give you what you need and so I would appeal not to just baptizo that shows that in some way there's a purpose for the forgiveness of sins and I'm saying twofold not only does

01:50:04

BDAG tell us that it signifies these reality but I'm willing to give you the biblical support that says

01:50:09

Jews would have understood that these mikvahs these pools of water these signify that don't take place in that moment that's the four -orbed understanding of the context of Acts chapter 2 you're cherry -picking one verse saying it must mean that you get regeneration and justification and baptism and I would argue that BDAG doesn't give you that they just give you the bare definitions you have to build your case that's one thing not not in reference to that so we're done with your

01:50:39

I know I just wanted to say what we disagree but I like you very much this is the nicest engagement of conflict no great job guys we're gonna go ahead and jump into the negative cross

01:50:56

X we will start the timer 25 minutes now okay my first question is do you believe that mark 16 16 is inspired no

01:51:11

I believe the textual evidence for mark 16 verses 8 through or 9 through 20 is lacking

01:51:17

I think that it was an attempt to complete Mark's gospel and I believe that they tried to summarize what was found in other gospel accounts so I think mark 16 16 is a summary of Matthew 28 verses 18 through 20 by the person that wrote it

01:51:34

I think it's very early though and I appreciate it because I just I was just waiting for mark 16 16 to get thrown at me so I just appreciate we actually agree

01:51:42

I don't think it's inspired it's max my next question is Colossians 212 you knew that I was gonna go back to Colossians true that verse says having been buried with him in baptism a

01:51:54

Jewish context in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God who raised him from the dead my question my first question is is baptism a work of God because it's a command that we must obey in order to have our past sins forgiven yes

01:52:13

I got a yes I'm going somewhere with it though so okay it's only shift gears to James chapter 2

01:52:22

James 221 referencing Abraham I want to see how much continuity our justification which sounds like the works of God being obedient to command it sounds like I'm gonna get another yes here

01:52:34

I'm hoping was not Abraham our father justified by works and so I think tell me if I'm understanding your interpretation this would be the works of God because he was being obedient to God's command when he offered up his son

01:52:47

Isaac yes it says obedience to the command offer of his son

01:52:53

Isaac that's the works in that particular passage so we're justified like Abraham because we have an obedient faith when

01:52:58

God gives a command we respond in obedience and your position it's not a human work it's the it's the working of God or the works of God right yeah you can give that definition sure all right this is where I need you to really help me out on James chapter 2 verse 25 in the same way was not also

01:53:17

Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way now here's my big question can you show me anywhere

01:53:27

James chapter 2 Joshua chapter 2 what command did

01:53:33

God give Rahab for her to respond in obedience so she can be doing the works of God to be justified well

01:53:41

I mean of course the men the spies their lives were in danger they were being hunted by the king of Jericho and she's a

01:53:52

Gentile but a part of the law of the heart Romans 2 verses 14 and 15 is to not murder that I mean that goes back to you know the command given after Noah exited the ark you know whoever sheds man's blood by man shall his blood be shed from the image of God made he man so the command from God to Rahab was the law written on her heart in that case yeah she protected life because there is no other command by God to Rahab for her to obey is there well at that time she was a

01:54:28

Gentile right and God had dealt specially with the Jews in revealing his law to them in a way that he hadn't dealt with other nations

01:54:34

Psalm 147 with the last two verses 19 and 20 or 18 through 20 makes that point so the works of God is the law written on the heart it's not just what he tells us in his word from your position at that point in time it included that you know just like in Genesis chapter 26

01:54:56

I don't remember the passage but Abraham kept my I think verse 5 Abraham kept my commandments obeyed my laws my statutes etc etc and you know there wasn't a written command from God yeah so you would say she was just obeying the command from God that was written on her heart so it wasn't a verbal command she just should know to be loving and to receive the spies so I've heard and she was convinced of course that Yahweh is the one true

01:55:28

God and that Israel was on a mission from God so you know her faith moved her in that way yeah no where we're we're close what's interesting about that is what you're saying is a command doesn't have to be actually give it like we see with Abraham I would actually say when

01:55:44

I'd like your response I got a frame this in a question so with Abraham he was given a command to be to offer up his son

01:55:51

Isaac and Christians are given a command to obey and you're saying there's actually discontinuity with Rahab because God did not give her a command to obey it's got to be something else maybe a necessary inference like well

01:56:05

God wrote his heart on the law of man and that's the command that she really had to obey right I mean he did give her a command that she knew from her heart right so he didn't give her a verbal command like Christians have and like Abraham correct yeah right so there's there's major discontinuity it's not just her living faith being demonstrated before man right

01:56:24

I mean it's it's a command that was written on her heart okay they show the work of the law written on their hearts appreciate that response okay so talk about the nature of justification there yeah we were talking about James chapter 2 with her being justified by her works and so earlier when you said

01:56:45

I didn't was talking about baptism I was talking about justification you went to the baptismal proof text so I have another question we've already affirmed that we must be justified like Abraham because he had an obedient faith right so help me out with this

01:57:02

Romans 4 verse 9 says this is the blessing then is this blessing then only for the circumcised or also for the uncircumcised my question is what is the blessing that Paul is referring well if you drop back let's see if you drop back to verse 6 it's as just as David also speaks of the

01:57:29

Makar Makaris mon the the blessing of the man to whom

01:57:34

God reckons righteousness apart from works and then verse 7 he says blessed

01:57:43

Makari boy whose sins are forgiven etc and then verse 8 Makari OS you know so forth yeah so what's the blessing the blessing is justification sure

01:57:53

I would have accepted forgiveness of sins are kind of righteous but his justification so was the

01:57:59

Abraham doing the works of God when he obeyed the command to get circumcised he was yeah yes so was

01:58:07

Abraham justified counted righteous forgiven of his past sins over there by obeying this command to be circumcised well the text never explicitly says that really read for me verse 10 and tell me if he was justified before or after his circumcision so if you would please read verse 10 okay so well to be clear what

01:58:28

I just said was do wasn't my read verse 10 but I just to clarify what I said what

01:58:34

I said I think make sure I didn't misspeak that's he would the text doesn't explicitly say that he was justified when he was circumcised is that what

01:58:41

I said that's what you said I'm saying you read verse 10 because it's gonna tell us when he was explicitly just in relation to circumcision sure how therefore was he justified when he was in circumcision or an uncircumcision not in circumcision but in the uncircumcision so that was

01:58:58

Romans 4 verse 10 yeah in my Bible okay let me make sure how then was it counted to him was it before or after he had been circumcised it was not after but before he was circumcised yeah

01:59:13

I may have I may have said justified rather than reckoned because it's the clear well

01:59:18

I guess they yeah so the point is he was clearly justified before the ceremony of circumcision yes that's what

01:59:25

I said okay so is your position to say Abraham was justified before the ceremony before a ceremony but for Christians even though we're supposed to be justified like Abraham our point of justification is not until we participate in the ceremony of baptism is that a fair representation of your view yes okay do you want to defend that a little bit sure so there's what you're emphasizing is a radical disharmony and discontinuity

01:59:55

Abraham not justified by ceremony Christians supposed to be justified like Abraham later in verse 4 it's not just for his sake only but for hours we are justified the same way

02:00:07

I agree it's an obedient faith he was not justified by ceremony so do

02:00:13

I do I have time to unpack a little bit of this you do but I may cut you off okay let me just say let me just say this much what type of faith was it that Abraham had obedient faith yeah look at verse 12 he was father of the circumcision to those who were not of the circumcision only but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that he had in uncircumcision so Abraham's faith was a faith that took steps did

02:00:50

I would say and so so from from Paul's standpoint here the gesture I live by faith right and there's a reason why he's bringing up circumcision because there's an influx of Jewish Christians coming back into the church in Rome and so that creates controversy concerning whether or not

02:01:05

Gentiles have to be circumcised so let me so let me pause you real quick okay cuz it's my time to lead oh sure so this proves that Abraham had an obedient faith we use different terms when we say that because my position is an obedient faith is a real trusting faith from the heart sure

02:01:20

Abraham was justified I just want to affirmation on this or not because we do need to move on Abraham justified before ceremony

02:01:29

Christians are justified when they participate in a ceremony but Abraham was not justified is that a yes and and then the explanation

02:01:36

I'm not I'm not gonna give a I'm not Paul's argument is at what point was

02:01:44

Abraham justified before or after circumcision what was the point at one point was

02:01:50

Paul at what point was Abraham justified before after he walked from Ur of the

02:01:55

Chaldees he took those footsteps of faith that God commanded him from Ur of the Chaldees because I do think he was this demonstrates that he was justified took steps of faith in sanctification because the judge shall live by faith and he was not justified by a ceremony like Christians but he wasn't he wasn't justified

02:02:14

Genesis 15 6 explicitly until after he took those footsteps of faith Romans 328 I'd like to shift gears a little bit we we know it says for we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law so the phrase works of the law is an example of a kind of work that's presupposing the definition for works what is that fundamental definition for the word works these are what would be dang works commanded by the law of Moses and that's where it is in B dag and you've got the pages there right so what's the fun okay without begging the question of works it's works of the law so that's an example of a kind of work what's the principal definition of Ergon well the way that you use a lexicon is you don't just look at the head definition but you look at the contextual meaning how how are the writers using the word

02:03:05

Oh and in B dag when B dag defines Ergon as it relates to Romans chapters 3 and 4 so can you give me the final definition of the law of Moses can you give me okay but that's a an example of a kind of Ergon and our

02:03:18

God's mind that's how B dag defines it well that's how B dag defines Ergon and what's that definition that they first give before they start relating it that's not the definition they give for what is it you're misusing the lexicon what it what's the definition you have the way the lexicon works is it gives contextual meanings and the contextual meaning that B dag gives for Ergon Namu so you won't give me the definition for works let's take a step back

02:03:41

I am it's right there in B dag okay so what's the definite the principal definition we don't know we're about to go yet in Romans let's take a step back from Romans you're misusing the lexicon that's

02:03:50

I appreciate your opinion when we take a step back from the the book of Romans and I were to ask you to define works what would you say if you take a step back we're

02:03:59

Romans okay from Romans and I said what does the word works mean it always has to have a contact so you wouldn't give me a definition you always have to have a contact so you wouldn't give me a definition for what works

02:04:10

I mean it's something done something done something okay sure let's roll with that okay so maybe you can help me with this scenario a person hears the gospel they believe it they repent they confess and that there's something done that they do they obey the command of baptism does this person receive anything in exchange for something done like their participation in baptism well yes they've met a condition they haven't merited that they haven't merited the blessing but we but there is a condition that they've met that's the thing in dispute because you have to say that right even the

02:04:47

Pharisees said we were not trusting and on righteousness but Jesus says you honor me with your lips so that's the thing in question

02:04:54

I appreciate you having to say that but you agree that you receive something in exchange based on your interpretation of Acts 2 38 right because your baptism you would say you get in exchange forgiveness of sin is that your position so so I would say that that is a blessing received when you meet the condition yeah in the same way that I would say you know what

02:05:17

Jesus says in John 6 27 don't labor for the meat that perishes but labor for the food that endures to eternal life labor for the food that endures to eternal life we would differ on the context there that Jesus is talking about with those people that they all cared about their tummies being full with food and Jesus so don't wait my question is one of your definition your definition of the word works in some context is something done and so when we go back to Romans 4 verses 4 and 5 the verses say now to the one who works are gods of mine and there's a question mark what's the content and I and I mean you agree in principle that has to be defined within a context and that's good but the full verse says his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due into the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly his faith is counted as righteousness if the word works here in this passage is not referring to works of the law would that undercut your interpretation of acts 238 well acts 238 says what it says well

02:06:21

I get it says what it says and it means what it means I'm saying your interpretation in context works here means works of the law

02:06:28

Moses so if it didn't it would that undercut your position but it but no loss no it means worse so you can't concede that point because it would under but I'm not gonna concede that point because it's not what okay so I think tell me if this is what you're implying if you did concede that point then there's no way you could harm an eyes acts 238 with what

02:06:45

Paul is saying here in Romans 4 yes well acts 238 clearly says what

02:06:51

I say it says what it says and it means what it means you're still interpreting it you know how I know you're interpreting it because you don't baptize in the name of Jesus Christ do you well remember what

02:07:01

I said remember what I said bat what I said baptist theta epi toe on a

02:07:09

Monty remember what I said it means baptized up on the confession of the name it says what it says right are you interpreting but I've never baptized anybody that I didn't say in the name of Jesus Christ no but I also do you that do you guys this is where a church of Christ would disagree with you and say you're disobeying acts 238 because they said it clearly says be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ do you baptize the name of Jesus Christ or in the triune name

02:07:34

I baptize in the triune name because which includes the name of Jesus right because you have to interpret

02:07:39

I've never baptized anybody that I didn't baptize in the name of the triune name explicitly in acts 238 the answer is clearly no no right so you have to interpret that and I agree with you it is talking about in the authority and name of Jesus Christ but you cannot say it says what it says but that's the point you have to harmonize that with the

02:08:00

Great Commission it doesn't just merely say what it says you have to interpret it and one last thing before we move on time's running out you agree that if Romans 4 4 & 5 if that is just talking about works and not the works of the law then that would undercut your interpretation is it the case so listen to how

02:08:20

I'm framing the question is it the case that that would deny your interpretation of acts 238 or would it not be the case that it undercuts your position or interpretation of acts 238 is it the case or not the case is the question well you know

02:08:37

I obviously believe that passages other passages like in Paul you know you know what profits is faith working by love yes you know

02:08:46

Paul has a positive view of works and so many other passages this passage is talking about Paul's view of the works of the law

02:08:53

Moses I asked if it was the case or not the case and you talked about it well you're asking me to speak to a hypothetical if this doesn't and that's not the way

02:09:01

I interpret this right and I'm saying you couldn't concede that point because it would undercut your interpretation of acts 238 well because I do believe that I mean you see how much is it the case that that's true or is it the case that it's not true that's a logical question well right now so so repeat it are you asking me is this true or not repeat the statement you want me to say whether it's true or not is it the case that if Romans 4 4 & 5 is not talking about works of the law that that would undercut is it the case would that undercut your interpretation of acts 238 or is it not the case well it's true if I misinterpreted

02:09:34

Romans we gotta say it works that's the works are all we're gonna keep going is there's six more minutes we call so I gotta control my time does

02:09:42

Jesus talk about justification in the Gospels so Luke chapter 18 is a good example of that yeah you were listening to my opening state sure

02:09:53

PC and I wanted to address that but I ran out of time that's okay totally understand the time thing so I do have a question about Luke chapter 18 the tax collector says or the tax collector said

02:10:05

I am NOT like other men I fast twice a week I give tithes of all that I get my question is can you

02:10:13

Pharisees all right yeah oh the first you actually had that wrong so the Pharisee said I'm NOT like other men

02:10:19

I fast twice a week I give tithes of all that I get can you explain to me how you were saved without using the words

02:10:26

I or obey well you couldn't fully either because you believe you obey the gospel

02:10:34

I could as you define that actually you meet me show you how I can do you really want to double down on that well

02:10:41

I've got you what do you want to is the question do you may demonstrate I don't I'm I'm responding I'm responding to your point

02:10:48

I'm not trying to make any you explain how you were saved without using the word I obey trust me

02:10:53

I can I want to see if you can no I don't believe so because I believe that that I have to respond to God's loving gracious offer in the gospel yes so you could not say that you were saved without using the words

02:11:09

I or obey so let's let's get turn to Luke I might be able to figure out a way but true

02:11:14

I give them where we turn turn with me to Luke chapter 18 18 yes okay yep so when we look at the next passage in context okay

02:11:27

Jesus talks about let the little children come to me when verse 17 when he says truly I say to you whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it what does that mean with with a humble submissive response absolutely with that and that's and that's in line with Matthew 18 3 & 4 where Jesus uses similar or 1 to 4 where Jesus uses similar like would it be fair to say that's talking about faith that's congruent with the tax collector that says

02:11:55

God be merciful to me a sinner so so the tax collector was justified by faith when his faith expressed itself in notice what

02:12:08

Jesus says you know verse 10 two men went up to the temple to pray one a tax collector the other

02:12:19

Pharisee and then when that that faith that God would justify him when that faith expressed itself and by the tax collector and something done standing afar off you know humbly you know not willing even to lift his eyes to heaven and when he beat his breast and he said

02:12:38

God you know be merciful for me propitiate for me a sinner and then he went home justified his faith had to act his faith went up to the temple his faith prayed in this humble manner and only then did the man go home justified right he was not justified the moment faith arose in his heart that said

02:12:58

God wants to justify me and I want God to justify me and I trust God I'm gonna have to cut you off cuz I control time that's your assumption that I'm challenging so earlier in Lou and early yeah

02:13:07

Bible says what it says and it means what it means right and so earlier in Luke's gospel turn with me to Luke chapter 5 because my question because what we see in Luke chapter 5 is a paralytic man whose sins were forgiven and my question is was the paralytic sins forgiven before he arose and picked up his bed yes what

02:13:31

Jesus seeing their faith right so what obedient check this out what obedient works did the paralytic do not as friends it's collective but what works did the paralytic do well he wasn't mute he was paralyzed but he wasn't me is this one of those admitted he submit he submitted to lying on the mat and being lowered he wasn't screaming and saying no no no

02:13:51

I don't trust Jesus I don't want to have anything to do with Jesus no Jesus saw what is it's not just the friends faith who was lowering him but also the paralytics faith so can a paralytic get up and do works nobody can work by moving his vocal cords yeah scream out and say

02:14:07

I don't want Jesus to save me can you show me where that's in the text please that's clearly what's necessary inference right it's clearly implied in the test it's necessary with Jesus would

02:14:15

Jesus have said you know son be of good cheer your sins are forgiven you if the man was crying out and saying no no

02:14:21

I don't want this I see this is the difference between our positions the man doesn't have to do works to know that God sees the heart and he trusts in the

02:14:29

Savior to forgive him you believe a faith in order to be real has to work a particular action to a command that's adding your works you even conceded to that definition and you don't like actually applying it into the context so if you would turn back with me to Luke chapter 18 we've already demonstrated that sure faith is always the condition and your your point is it has to work a particular action is there anywhere else okay look with me at the rich young ruler do we learn anything about salvation in this text sure yeah we're at well the rich young ruler was not willing to love

02:15:15

God with all of his heart he loved his things more did he did he obeyed the law since his youth you think he was right in saying that well he obviously didn't fully obey the law from his youth he was a delusional he was saying

02:15:28

I've done all the works necessary I mean the Old Testament says and my man there's no man that that does good and sins not you know so my question is did he go home justified no no he didn't even though he tried really really hard to obey the law right well his problem was a heart problem absolutely right because a good tree and he didn't he didn't actually obey the law the first the law love

02:15:56

God with all your heart soul mind and strength and he didn't love God with all of his heart soul mind and strength he liked his things more

02:16:02

I've appreciated this man well good much this is the for the history books absolutely yes sir great job guys thank you we will now give each one of you five minutes for your closing statements

02:16:14

Mike the floor is yours and the affirmative we've got the stand coming up here now

02:16:22

I will start the clock whenever you begin you have five minutes

02:16:27

Mike the floor is yours well I again appreciate

02:16:32

Jeremiah very much general Jeremiah as you see as a gentleman Jeremiah is someone the whom

02:16:38

I believe really loves God and really wants to do what's right and so you know

02:16:43

I've appreciated our time this evening however having said that I do think that it was clear that Jeremiah did not deal with the text

02:16:51

Jeremiah did not demonstrate why acts to the main text that I used how that purpose phrase so that your sins may be forgiven related only to repentance and not to baptism and when

02:17:10

I showed the entry from BDAG on baptizo which is which is the word there next 238 and showed how those lexicographers whose ability to read these

02:17:25

Greek texts far exceeds either my ability or Jeremiah's ability and they clearly say that the purpose for baptizo there is ace a festin tone hamarty on whom own so that your sins may be forgiven and that's exactly how they defined it under ace all he just kept on doing was no it goes with repentance it goes with repentance and so I think this is a clear example of what

02:17:51

I said systematic theology is a wonderful thing if one systematic theology is drawn from one's biblical theology if you go and you interpret each verse and after you've correctly interpreted each verse you put it all together you synthesize it and you see the whole picture but there is a tyranny in systematic theology there is the tyranny of a paradigm of false paradigm that causes someone to come to a text like acts 238 and read it where Peter says repent and answer to the people's question what must we do repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven and you should receive the gift of the

02:18:33

Holy Spirit to cause Jeremiah to say well no I mean it can't mean what it clearly says it can't mean what these incredibly gifted lexicographers say that it means and so I hope that you that you've seen that tonight

02:18:53

I also hope that you've seen tonight that I am NOT somebody even though I believe that one must be baptized in order to be saved

02:19:03

I am NOT somebody who believes that when I get to heaven I will be there because I've been such a good boy

02:19:10

I pulled myself up on my own bootstraps and I've earned it and God will say well done good and faithful servant you've just done so good you deserve no no

02:19:19

I am a sinner I am a wretched sinner I'm a sinner who deserves

02:19:25

God's wrath and hell I have done nothing to deserve God's gracious salvation

02:19:31

I am only saved because God loved me and sent his son in the form of human flesh to live be tempted in all points like as we are yet without sin and go to the cross to die in my place and then be raised again in his body to ascend back to heaven to act as a high priest and offer his blood before God's throne and sit at God's right hand and act as my me

02:20:03

I am only saved because of what Jesus has done for me and is doing for me

02:20:09

I have earned nothing when you've done all those things which are commanded you say we are unprofitable servants

02:20:15

I'm an unprofitable servant I have simply done that which was my duty to do but God will not save a rebel

02:20:21

God will not save us when we shake our fist and say no

02:20:27

God I want your salvation but I'm gonna go my own way no heart of faith is a heart that trusts what not just what

02:20:38

Jesus has done but what God has said and is willing in humility to submit we're not talking about perfect obedience we're not talking about that at all

02:20:49

I every day but we're talking about having a heart that is willing to submit to God's command and a part of God's command is to be water baptized and that is what these texts clearly say and I was saved in baptism because of Jesus because Jesus died for me and Jesus promised that if you'll be baptized then

02:21:15

I will apply to your account what I've done not what you're doing but I will apply to your account what

02:21:22

I have done and that is what I'm that is why I'm saved and that is what

02:21:29

I believe the scripture to teach and I appreciate your attention very much and I appreciate Jeremiah very much you

02:21:35

Mike we will now go to the negative closing statements Jeremiah the floor is yours start the timer as soon as you begin notice he said

02:21:45

I was saved in baptism I give tithes of all that I get

02:21:52

I have obeyed the law I have done ceremony after ceremony after ceremony what did

02:21:58

Jesus say this is a people that trust in their own righteousness now you heard what he says it's not a work of merit it's not by the things that I do you have to say that but you know what gives away his position he believes that his part a participation in a ceremony is necessary for his right -standing before God that's what the

02:22:18

Pharisees of old did they were trusting in their own works I didn't say they were meriting it but Jesus exposed their heart he said something else that struck me he said

02:22:28

God does not save rebels going back to one of the verses that we disputed and talked about as Romans 4 verse 5 and to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly his faith is counted as righteousness

02:22:47

God does save rebel sinners how does he do it through the new covenant promise where God says ah now this is where the eye is proper

02:22:57

God says I will take out that heart of stone I will give you a heart of flesh

02:23:03

God says I will cause you to walk in my statutes he asked me how would

02:23:09

I answer the question how was I saved without using the word I obey I would say this wretched man was saved by God's amazing sovereign grace to saves to the uttermost

02:23:23

I would say it's not because I obeyed in my works that I obeyed the gospel in faith not by my works you know what faith is called in the

02:23:34

New Testament a gracious gift from above I was accused of not letting the

02:23:40

Bible speak where the Bible speaks in Acts 2 38 I made a case notice he appealed to Lutherans and I'm over here saying everybody else hears it he's saying these people being

02:23:51

Lutherans would have been talking about baptismal regeneration Mike why don't you become a Lutheran man that is a flat contradiction you're going to disagree with Lutheran scholarships on how they apply these definitions these are great definitions he says that I'm just ignoring what it says the

02:24:08

Lutheran definition said that baptizo signifies forgiveness of sin signifies a relationship with God why does it signify it because we cannot we cannot confuse the representation of with the reality you do not get justified your past sins washed away when you are participating by his own admission

02:24:30

I had to get him to step out of the book of Romans and say give me a definition works well it's something done it's something that you do and I'm saying yeah in the context of Romans 4 in Ephesians 2 your ergon your ergods my place no part in your justification before God Almighty and so going back to acts 238

02:24:49

I'll remind you I think he's already misunderstanding when he says brothers what shall we do they're not skippy and happy saying oh let's get saved no they realize covenantally this is where you can't just cherry -pick a verse out of context this is a

02:25:04

Jewish covenant context they are crying out to God because they deserve his cursings on them they killed the

02:25:11

Messiah the Son of God they think all hope is lost and Peter says no no repent and how does the rider use repent metanoia to change mind changes the disposition of the heart and that is what justifies you before God a repentant faith he can just say that's not what these

02:25:32

Lutheran scholars mean when they give us these very pointed definitions I'm like of course not they're Lutherans but they give us good definitions of that baptizo signifies these spiritual realities my closing minutes here the book of Galatians tells us in Galatians chapter 1 that if an angel of heaven preached to you a gospel contrary to the one that we've preached let him be accursed now the gospel that Paul preached in chapter 2 of Galatians he says a person is just if not justified by works of law but through faith in Jesus Christ he's gonna say works of the law this is talking about the old covenant my submission to you is if you are adding your participation in your actions your work you're actually going back to the old covenant the covenant that only condemned and cannot save when you add your participation your works you are obliterating the the gospel law distinction and so Paul says this because he knows that this audience does not like to hear the things that he is saying and he says in chapter 4 have

02:26:36

I then become your enemy by telling you the truth I'd like to submit to you that the truth is that you are justified the moment you put your faith in King Jesus thank you thank you gentlemen we will now have another five minute intermission it's an opportunity for you to stretch your legs a little bit and those of you online

02:26:56

I just want to remind you now's your chance to to go in the comments and put a cue before your question and who you want to ask the question to and again super chats will go first so if you put a super chat in with a question we will definitely get to that question so five minutes will begin now we will come back together for our

02:27:16

Q &A after this Oh fear one said oh hold on me but this son who died to save us knows that we would be free that we would be free with spring black

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Friday savings at the Home Depot how doers get more done I was made to of question and answer this is the time that a lot of people look forward to for those of you in the audience

02:33:05

I'm sure that some of you have questions actually we've already got a line started here we have a microphone set up right over there you can begin to form that line at any moment but please limit your question to one all right so they don't get up there and take over the microphone be sure to limit it and and to address whoever you're asking the question to either

02:33:26

Jeremiah or Mike make sure they know who you're asking and for time's sake please keep your questions under 30 seconds that way these guys can understand it and it can be concise and for those of you online we will of course get to your questions as we can the super chats are for sure going to get addressed as we get through this and we'll just go back and forth we will go ahead for those that were willing to drive out tonight and actually set in person we're gonna cut we're gonna jump to you first so let's go ahead and get started

02:33:58

I'm gonna start the clock for about 30 minutes oh sorry question for Mike how can works mean works of the law in Romans 4 2 through 4 when

02:34:10

Abraham was justified before the law sure look back at Romans chapter 3 which is a part of the context and so Paul says in verse 27 where therefore is boasting it's excluded through what law of works no but through the law of faith verse 27 for we reckon that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law and look at that very next word in verse 29 in the

02:34:45

Greek it's the word a it means or or so he says a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law or is

02:34:56

God the God of the Jews only is he not also the God of the Gentiles so if a person were justified by works

02:35:04

Paul is saying God would be a God of the Jews only and so he's clearly defining works of the law as works of the law most oh and I did not set my time that's one minute on the nose okay great

02:35:15

I'm so sorry I forgot okay so my 32nd response is it's actually really easy to demonstrate that Paul is shifting from the works of the law talking of specifically about Jews he appeals to Abraham that comes way before the

02:35:30

Mosaic law so he can be the father of faith whether you're Jews or Gentiles that's the context in Romans 4 and then he has to read his bias into Romans 4 and 5 that do not address the works of the law it's saying or gods of my your effort of any kind cannot add to your justification 30 seconds whoo that goes fast alrighty well who's next thank you for having my back there well my questions for mr.

02:35:57

hi saw and I hope you don't feel bombarded but you're on Baptist earth hey it's alright it's alright I'm Daniel in the line yeah that's true well the guy's not shutting your mouth line number two right here so I really appreciate your

02:36:11

Greek scholarship that's very refreshing not doesn't come up very much in these debates and so I was very much

02:36:16

I enjoyed that I wanted to ask you an axe 238 as you of course no one pointed out the command meta meta no a saute is a you know imperative second -person plural y 'all as I would have translated in Greek class y 'all repent and then the the verb the future verb let lame s stay which is of course you will receive future also a second person plural so they agree in person a number however the command to be baptized

02:36:46

Baptiste that's Baptiste that they toe excuse me I practice these a promise is in a third person singular imperative as in he she or it must be baptized can you speak to why

02:36:58

Luke would would give a second person plural command for repent but a third person singular command for be baptized why would he change person a number there

02:37:07

Jeremiah would you time me on this I've got to go to the septuagint for this absolutely so so he did it for emphasis you know all of y 'all repent let each of you be baptized it's for emphasis but this is not an uncommon thing in Greek so here's one example

02:37:24

I mean I could give you many but in the septuagint Exodus chapter 16 verse 29 it says behold for the

02:37:33

Lord gave to you this day the Sabbath therefore he himself gave to you in the therefore he will give to you in this day bread for two days sit each of you in your house note let no one go out of his place in the seventh day so there the command it's to one audience sit each of you in your house in the

02:38:03

Greek text is a second person plural verb it's in the future tense and let none of you go out of your house is a third person singular so it's the same sort of yeah

02:38:17

I would I would just simply say you gotta look at context this is a very particular context and I guarantee if we go to this in the septuagint it's not identical in its form and it's definitely not talking about the same kinds of commands that we see in Acts 2 38 he's saying repent you've got to look at context how

02:38:34

Luke has been using this that's the thing that's always connected with forgiveness of sins he does that all throughout the book of Acts and baptism once again signifies these realities a person that's baptized it's indicative it's descriptive of what they do when they are justified 30 seconds all right thank you guys before we take one more in person

02:38:52

I'm gonna ask one of the ones from our super chats because we've had two directly to Mike so far we're gonna throw one to Jeremiah here all right so orange ooky seven

02:39:03

I hope I'm saying that correctly he has a question for Jeremiah he says will you follow your own logic with the point you're trying to make with your air gone is pistis in James 2 14 the same kind of pistis in Romans 328 and if I need to repeat the question will you follow your own logic with the point you're trying to make with your gun is pistis in James 2 14 the same kind of pistis in Romans 328 so it's the same word in different context

02:39:42

James chapter 2 is talking about a mere said faith and so you could say it's pistis

02:39:48

Jeremiah it's the same Greek word but that overlooks how the the writer is using in James 2 14 he says does this kind of faith if someone says they have faith and he's eventually getting a mere said faith only that doesn't demonstrate itself out well no that is a dead faith in the context of before other people so when we get into James chapter 2 who is justification ultimately before in this context he says my brethren it's before people and so like we've talked about if you have faith truly from the heart that's going to work itself out and be demonstrated before other people in Romans Paul is combating legalism and he says if you do have a real pistis trusting in the heart

02:40:34

God knows the heart and that's the moment when you are justified and I do believe that James is using faith differently than what

02:40:45

Paul is using faith I believe that we do because because verse 14 can that faith save him the article there hey pistis so sigh that article emphasized that faith but is the justification merely before men verse 19 says you believe this one

02:41:00

God you do well the demons believe in tremble if justification were before men in the passage why would the demons tremble because they're not justified they don't tremble because they're not just for men man

02:41:11

I wish I could I wish I could say I just became an auctioneer this is quick this is very quick I tell you what guys

02:41:21

I'm gonna try and keep a timer so we have a timer that goes off and sounds thank you I'll keep the one in 30 seconds because I went 33 that's okay it's okay we're not to it we're gonna be too rigid on this we have another question in line so I had a question over your concluding statement you mentioned that you know you're only saved because you know

02:41:46

God came down died for your sins you know and then operates as a high priest but shouldn't you also put an end in there that you know

02:41:54

God through his love sent Jesus to die for your sins and because you responded in repentance and in baptism so shouldn't you say like it's an act of both you and God not just God and and I would say oh

02:42:08

I hit the minute okay I would say yes you do play a part because acts 2 verse 40 says so theta be saved that's a command to them so we do have to play a part thanks my 32nd response is yeah but what's the context

02:42:28

Peter is saying that you can be saved yes you are under the curse of the law but there's hope you can be saved for this crooked from this crooked generation the whole world that's tainted with sin how repent a repentant faith in King Jesus that's the first command in a different kind of command that is for our sanctification that is a demonstration before man and when you look at James 2 it's showing that you can't just have mere head knowledge like the demons do because that doesn't justify 30 minutes 30 seconds they're doing really good

02:42:58

I've got the timer going all right well do we have someone else in line all right here we go oh howdy um so in James chapter 2 verse 24 the text reads if I can find it now you see that a person is considered righteous or justified by what they do and not by faith alone

02:43:19

Jeremiah in previous videos you've argued and this justification is specifically before men and you mentioned it in your debate but you didn't touch on it too much

02:43:27

I want you to kind of explain why you believe that's the case and Mike my dad

02:43:33

I'd like you to follow up with that yeah all right yeah so when you start out with you see where did the pronouns lead you back it doesn't lead you back before God it leads you back to verse 14 where he says what good is it my brothers before man if someone says a mere empty said faith that can't save you before God and it's definitely not being demonstrate before people because when now you follow the pronouns down if a had lost my timer if if one of you says to them notice a person -to -person interaction verse skipping down to 18 but someone will say you have faith and I have works and here's the key show me your faith he appealed to the verse 19 that says even the demons have a mental ascent and they actually have an effect they have actions and they're not saved and so the point is it can't be a mere said faith before men that justifies you vindicate your faith faith before man because we can't see the heart we see the effects of that and I would just say the word for justify there is dick

02:44:42

I oh you look it up in BDAG and BDAG goes through the definitions and where does he place James chapter 2 well it's on that part that says of an experience of an activity of transfigured send it figures especially in relation to humans of God be found in the right be free of charges

02:44:59

BDAG defines this as God's action and why would the demons tremble if the jet if they're not justified before men they tremble because they're not justified before God alrighty guys do we have someone up we get somebody else here questions for Mike sorry man just very simple because I'm not familiar with what your viewpoint would be so it's a very simple question in your view are

02:45:27

New Testament Saints justified differently than what Old Testament Saints were justified and how so not in principle

02:45:34

I believe that always it's been the case that God has justified people through trust that expresses itself in obedience and that's exactly what we find at what point

02:45:47

Genesis 15 6 at what point in Abraham's life was his faith counted to him for righteousness was it the moment that he only had belief or was it after that faith had expressed itself and he in trusting

02:46:01

God left her of the Cowdeys came into the promised land and was trusting God for the promise it's when that faith expressed itself and I believe that's the way that God has always justified people by virtue of what

02:46:11

Jesus did because you know Hebrews chapter 915 the blood of Christ did was shed for the sins of Old Testament folk as well the answer is yes

02:46:25

God has always justified people the same way and we get the quotations of he Genesis 15 6 and Habakkuk 2 4 it says

02:46:33

Abraham believed God and was counting him as righteousness and that's true right vertical judicially the demons the point is they have a mental ascent and that produces action and that doesn't save them and so the just shall live by faith we're justified by faith and we live out our sanctification in works of obedience thank you guys we're gonna we still have some more in person but I'm gonna address one more super chat this one is actually for you

02:47:04

Mike this is from born again RN they asked Jesus says unless one is born of water can't enter heaven since unless and cannot are exclusive if this refers to baptism then wouldn't all unbaptized go to hell so I would just say that expression unless someone is born of water and of the

02:47:31

Spirit they cannot enter into the kingdom of God water there and I was about to go for it

02:47:36

B DAG defines water there as a reference to water baptism the context that's how water is used in the context verse 23 says that John was baptizing in Eden near to Salem because there was much water there so waters in the context and so I do believe that that's the point and that's that's that is my proposition water baptism is necessary for justification before God and I don't know who to look at with an online

02:48:01

I feel like I'm talking to somebody with a lazy eye I don't know which I look at and so I'm just looking look at me all you okay

02:48:07

I would I would encourage the camera I'm sorry if anyone has a lazy eye no the fantastic verse because this shows man's inability to come to God now

02:48:19

Mike I saw in the Church of Christ theology they deny original sin they believe that you were actually born good enough to respond to God and this verse is telling us that unless you are regenerated born again you can't even see salvation and I would once again say the context determines what kind of water is being used this is a it's qualified by the

02:48:39

Spirit it's a spiritual cleansing which Ezekiel 36 says is done by God in the Holy Spirit not a baptism baptism made with human hand thank you guys all righty we have another one in person it's for you

02:48:53

Mike yeah Debbie downer here Romans 10 10 verse it says for with the heart one believes and is justified and with the mouth one confesses and it's saved the for with the heart one believes a

02:49:09

T Robertson which I know y 'all really appreciate his linguistics it says it is believed in the heart and then that's the accusative is the then one confesses and it's saved so how would you reconcile that with we having to be baptized in order to be justified before God well so I would just say if you look at the passage

02:49:30

I do believe that that belief does exist in the heart but it has to express itself and I think if you look in the passage clearly we're not saved at the moment of faith alone because if you drop down to verse you know verse 13 says everyone who calls upon the name of the

02:49:46

Lord shall be saved so confessing with the mouth is calling on the name of the Lord right verse 14 says how then shall they call in whom they've not believed and how shall they believe of whom they've not heard so notice

02:49:59

Paul here clearly separates calling on the name of the Lord confessing from faith they're related but they don't happen instantaneously and so the passage does not argue that one is saved at the moment of faith alone in fact the passage shows that one is is not saved at the moment of faith alone faith has to express itself and if we go back to Romans chapter 6

02:50:23

Paul just makes it so clear that do you not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ were baptized into his death we were buried with him so he's not going to contradict intend what he said in chapter 6 either so yeah so this is a good point because this shows that you can obey the gospel by faith and that's not your works and so when you go earlier in the context he's assuming a death the entire debate he assumed definitions without proving it confess with the mouth begins with confession that's a heart of worship and then earlier in the context he says for when the heart one believes and is justified that's confessing

02:50:57

Jesus is Lord it's not part of a five -step formula in order to be declared right before God I'm getting better with these 30 second

02:51:06

I'm not at least one of us is that's quick it goes by quick do we have any any other in -person questions so far well we go right ahead this is for Jeremiah clearly what would it take in question

02:51:23

I need you to help me out with this yeah um what would it take what would scripture need to say for you to affirm the proposition yes great question thought about this and it's not what scripture would have to say it's you would have to take out what scripture is already declared you would have to take out the promises of the

02:51:44

Old Testament the Old Covenant that promised the New Covenant that how Abraham was justified before a ceremony before his faith worked a particular action you have to take that out you would have to take out

02:51:55

Habakkuk 2 4 that says the I live by faith that tells us about sanctification you would have to take out holistically

02:52:02

Romans Galatians and the whole apologetic of the book of Hebrews so I've thought about this of what standard of evidence and you would have to take away the clear evidences already established that tell us that our justification before God is where he can see not man which is at the heart that's by faith and like I said that those passages would have to be taken out

02:52:26

I don't have the presuppositions that my interlocutor has that has to reinterpret what faith into really being faithfulness well and I suppose what would it take for me to see that salvation is by faith alone a passage that says salvation is by faith alone but rather the

02:52:46

Bible says you see then how that by works of man is justified and not by faith alone can't say anything darn it yes well we've got we got some more super chats and some online questions so we're going to we'll go ahead and start here with one for Mike I assume this one's for Mike he didn't actually put it in here this is from Paul day he asked if works if works for true justification are just the command of Christ why does

02:53:23

Romans 8 for require the works of the law to be met in us through Jesus death well so we understand that that in certain contexts namas does not mean the law of Moses and in this context you look then at verse 1 therefore now no condemnation exists for those who are in Christ Jesus for the namas of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death so now we're not under the law of Moses now we're under the law of Christ we're to bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ Galatians 6 and verse 2 yeah so I'll just appeal to the broader context in Romans 8 we get a true peek into God's sovereignty and how we are made right with God for God works all things together for those for the good of those that are called and he says those whom he predestined he also called those whom he called he also justified which he already built a case in chapter 4 that it's by faith apart from works and even in Romans 9 he says that we ultimately our salvation does not depend on the human will or our exertion this is our efforts does not play a part in our justification all righty thank you guys do we have oh we have another in person here great

02:55:00

I get to ask this question as we look at acts 238 and X 10 and X 11

02:55:06

Peter brought this back up in X 15 and he's kind of given a clarification of what kind of faith they had because he gets down to verse 9 and says and he made no distinction between us and them having cleansed their hearts by faith so Peter is actually saying that those in X 10 were justified the exact same way as X 238 is that how you would understand that so yes okay do you want me to deal because my times yeah we can pause it we can we need to do you want me to deal with whether or not their reception of the

02:55:41

Spirit before baptism means baptism isn't necessary do you want me to deal with it is that a part of the question I'm a little unclear as to what all is involved in the question just the part where it says that God is the one that's the the subject of the verb of cleansed their hearts he oh yeah yeah most most certainly

02:55:56

God is the subject yes yeah do you want a minute to go or you're good

02:56:02

I mean I don't know what else is a part of it I mean I would love to deal with acts because I never got to respond to you with Cornelius I'd love to deal with it but I don't know if that's a part of the question so all right so I would respond by the part of the question in Acts 10 this is what gives his his position huge problems because we know the

02:56:20

Gentiles have to be justified forgiveness of sins the same way and it says the one who believes receives forgiveness of sins through his name and then you see the

02:56:30

Holy Spirit as at work and Peter even says that they have received the Holy Spirit the same way as we we have that's the gift of the

02:56:38

Holy Spirit that's by a repentant faith that trust alone in the Savior's finished work sorry

02:56:45

I was thrown off I guess I can use my minute anyway I want to can I can oh okay now you know all right well let's go before we take another in person

02:56:56

I want to address another one of the super chats here from J Andrew J Andrews question is for Jeremiah is the verbal confession in Romans 10 9 through 10 something that must be done for salvation if so why is baptism any different I love

02:57:19

I get a minute to address this because I love how the definition of Ergon should be applied to me

02:57:25

Jeremiah you're saying activity of any kind which is what the Lutheran BDAG says and you look at that in its semantic domain here's the deal what does

02:57:35

Paul mean when he says confess with your mouth I would appeal to the word confession and it means a heart of worship from those

02:57:43

Lutherans and the point is a confession is more than saying words and more how than just living life a certain way that's continuing to call upon the name of the

02:57:54

Lord that begins at the heart and so in the context this is this one justification is by faith a heart of faith alone he even defines what he means in Romans 10 9 ongoing with your confess with your mouth that Jesus is

02:58:08

Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead with the heart one believes in is justified and he uses a parallel he says from a human vantage point that's gonna be somebody confessing him as Lord so I think that it's very interesting how that faith which requires mental activity it requires you do something and Jesus calls at the work of God what must we do that we might work the works of God after Jesus said don't work for the meat that perishes but work for the meat that endures to eternal life they say what must we do that we might work the works of God this is the work of God that you believe that requires mental activity and confession requires activity you use your vocal cords why is baptism off limits oh sorry sorry do we have any other in person we get one here

02:59:03

I'm getting you for that last response this is this is for Mike it on the surface it just seems like like the viewpoint that you're coming from like eliminates a lot of the possibility to come to Christ in your dying moments mm -hmm imagine being a prisoner did you say that again eliminates the possibility of coming

02:59:25

Christ in your dying moments right imagine this imagine being a prisoner in Rome and sitting next to one of the Christian martyrs you're about to get thrown to the lions you know and and God convicts you of your sin man you pray and the

02:59:36

Christian next to you looks sorry man we don't have a tub of water we're not gonna be able to pull this off you know is it that is it that being saved is contingent on having the logistical access to baptism or is it that God foreordains the baptismal scenario into every one of his elect everyone who's going to be saved before the end of time

02:59:59

I mean that's 30 that's 30 seconds yeah I'm sorry help me help me make sense of that sure yeah so so God is sovereign and God can save anyone whom

03:00:11

God wants to save and if God wants to be merciful towards someone who has a desire to be baptized but does not have opportunity to be baptized then

03:00:23

God can save them I think that it's very interesting that God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac in Hebrews 11 verse 17 says by faith

03:00:30

Abraham offered Isaac but Abraham did not actually sacrifice a son he had the knife ready to slay a son he had every intention of doing it but God stopped him but God still counted the intention as though he had done it and so if there's somebody that desperately wants to be saved but doesn't have opportunity

03:00:49

God can save them that's consistent with my position so this is actually the most glaring contradiction in his position because if you did not have the opportunity to obey the command he's saying oh

03:01:04

God makes an exception and then he says God can be merciful yes but it's arbitrary on his view

03:01:09

God can just on a whim forgive no it's on the condition of faith which he said is mental activity

03:01:15

I would submit to you that's not pistis it's a gift it's not your external mental energies this is spiritual and of the heart and so once again he is not being consistent when asked a glaring contradiction to his 30 thank you guys

03:01:30

I'm gonna take we have just enough time to maybe take to the last two of our super chats we have one from the

03:01:38

Tennessee electrician and this was for Mike is faith and works the same thing if not what is the difference

03:01:50

John 2 it depends on the context always but but I said

03:01:56

John 2 John 6 27 through 29 again

03:02:03

Jesus says don't work for the food that perishes but work for the food which endures to eternal life which the

03:02:10

Son of Man shall give you for him as God the Father sealed what must we do that we might work the works of God this is the work of God that you believe and so it's not

03:02:20

God who works faith in someone's heart in that passage it's what someone chooses to do because this is the work of God verse 29 is defined by Jesus command work for the food that endures to eternal life and so so in that passage faith is a work it just all depends on the context

03:02:41

I appreciate the question because no faith and works are not the same thing that's the whole point of Romans chapter 4 and you see what the hand -waving is if you obey then that's magically the work of God no you're believing is

03:02:57

God working in you no matter how much he denies it the whole context here is that people seeking earthly things trying to fill their bellies and they're saying what must we do they're thinking earthly and Jesus gives them a heavenly response in order for you be saved a work of God has to work in your heart thank you guys we are going to we only have a few more seconds but we're gonna go ahead and take this one last super chat and this one is from Paul day again so we know who this is to right does be dag get

03:03:29

Paul's use of sarks right he puts it directly in the Greek so all parts of the body constitute a totality known as flesh is dominated by sin to such a degree that wherever flesh is all forms of sin are would you like for me to read that again so so I suppose that that's a question concerning the tea in tulip and I believe that we are depraved through our sin

03:04:08

I don't believe that that depravity is total

03:04:13

I believe that those who are dead in their sins have the ability to respond to God's grace in the same way that in Jesus parable of the prodigal son the prodigal son while he was in the far country dead because when he comes back the father says you were dead now you're alive again dead he remembered the love of his father and he responded to the love of his father to return and to say

03:04:38

I've sinned against heaven and in your sight he did that defined in the context as dead so I do believe that those dead in their sin which

03:04:47

I think is the point of this question can respond to God's gracious offer no it's a great question because the church of Christ deny original sin that's more of the core of what he's getting at not just told of gravity but this has been deemed heretical all throughout church history if Mike were to go look up the