Uncompromising Conversation with a Gay LDS Man

Hey, bro. Gossip track? Huh? Gossip track. Uh, yeah. I'm LDS.

How long? Uh, since I was born. Since you were born? So have you lived in Utah your whole life? Where are you from?

I'm from Puerto Rico. What? So how many LDS people are in Puerto Rico, you think? Only three wards?

Is there no temple in Puerto Rico? They're building one now. Oh, they're building one? Cool. How old are you? Uh, 21.

21. Did you want a mission? No. Why not? I, uh, kind of embarrassing to say, but I didn't feel like I was fully committed to go on a mission.

I wanted to, but I knew myself better that I wouldn't be committed to. What do you mean by that?

Just if you don't mind me asking. I just want to understand. Uh, basically I learned when

I was 17 that, uh, missionaries are not allowed to watch or read anything that isn't church related.

So I was like, I can't fulfill that because I love all my books too much and I love all the movies

I watch. So I know myself, I would sneak out and probably... Oh, you didn't want to do something bad.

Interesting. Okay. What kind of movies and stuff are you into? I'm into sci -fi, action, horror, and history.

Oh, nice. Nice, bro. You seen Dunkirk? Huh? Dunkirk? Yeah. Is it a good one? Yeah. It's, uh, it's literally on my number five on the, on my, on my own top, top 10, uh, historic movies.

Oh, nice, bro. My name's Andrew, by the way. What's your name? Uh, David. David. Strong biblical name. Yeah. David.

Cool thing about this guy, his name's Nimoa. It actually means chicken. Yeah. So that's extra biblical.

Yeah. I'm chicken. My, uh, my last name is Taro, which means, uh, bull. Cool, man.

Cool. So we're out here, we're evangelical Christians. We'd like to get in conversation with our

LDS neighbors about differences, essentially, that we have. Do you know anything about the

Bible or anything like that? That differences between, like, evangelical Christians and the LDS? Um, not necessarily that I know any differences, only because I never read any other versions of the, of the

Bible. But I have heard different versions of, uh, uh, of Genesis and, um,

Exodus, but I've never heard anything other than that. Right. Okay.

So what, what do you think about, um, Jesus? Do you think that there's different versions of Jesus? I know there are different versions of Jesus.

Uh, when I've done his, when I've done, uh, history research, I learned that, uh, the concept of Jesus, uh, was put into different mythologies and, uh, religions out there.

So in a technical term, uh, Zeus is a type of Jesus character. Um, even, even the, um, the

Egyptian gods, they have their own version of Jesus. I don't remember his name, though. Interesting.

And then, and then the different religions have to pick Jesus, um, with, with like a halo or wings or, uh, whatever.

And I say whatever because I don't always keep track, keep track of, uh, every version of Jesus.

But I have read different versions of him. And some of them are interesting. Others are kind of like questionable.

Um, but I, I know, I know that Jesus is very loving no matter what depiction he is, unless Zeus, because Zeus was not loving.

Zeus was not loving. Yeah. So what do you say about Jesus, my friend?

You say you're LDS, but I guess you're not really practicing much or do you just go to BYU? I do practice my

LDS religion. It's just, uh, I like, I like practicing my religion a lot.

And then I like to research other, um, historic, uh, like stories and things that help me understand where different things came from.

Gotcha. So with history, I would say the best form of history we have to know who Jesus is, is in the synoptic gospels.

Matthew, Mark, and Luke, and even John, even though John's not considered synoptic gospel, it's more about the deity of Christ. But those are historic, uh, texts that tell us about Jesus from eyewitnesses.

It's the best history we have of Jesus, regardless of the mythology. I know a lot of that supposed history, zeitgeist history, was actually invented after the gospels were even there because people had to compete with Jesus.

So actually dating them back, they don't predate Jesus by any means. They were created into competition with Christianity.

But in regards with Jesus, who do you say that he is? Because he asks his disciples that. He says, who do you say that I am

David? Sorry, it's just, uh, noise. It's a little bit, it's better right here.

You should get like an echo. But who do you, who do you say that I am? That's what Jesus says. Who do you say Jesus is

David? I would say he is my brother. Your brother? Yes. Okay. And I, I know for a fact he's my brother.

And not only that, but every time I am either at church or on sacred grounds like the temple or even, or even at home.

And, you know, I could be saying a prayer or I could even mention his name. I know he's listening. I know he's like, he's like trying, trying to like let me know that he is right there with me, you know?

Yeah. Even when I'm like sad or upset or even when I'm happy too. Like he's just always there.

Gotcha. So, so you feel something essentially. So my question would be is how do you know that what you're feeling is actually

Jesus? I have, when I was, when I was eight, I was baptized and I'm telling you a story here.

When I was baptized, I did it because I, in my mindset as an eight year old,

I was like, my parents did it. My older brother did it. I'm going to do it.

So when I did it, I just did it because everybody else did it. But as I grew older, it wasn't until I was 12 that I realized why

I did it. And, and it's because I had sat down and I prayed, is this, is this really the right thing to do?

You know, not necessarily that I said, is this church true or is that church true or whatever?

It's, is this the right thing to do? And immediately I felt like somebody was listening to me and saying, yeah, it's the right thing to do.

And you did the right thing to do. You did the right thing. And no matter where, where you are, whether you're in a

Catholic church or a Baptist church, you know, as long as you're following Heavenly Father Jesus, you're pretty much okay.

You know, you're, you'll love you, you know, you think so? Well, Jesus in his word tells us, he says that many people will come to me saying,

Lord, Lord, look what the works I've done in your name. And Jesus says, depart from me, you workers of iniquity,

I never knew you. Right? Because we can say Jesus, but it doesn't mean it's necessarily Jesus.

Because he even tests the disciples. He says, who do you say that I am? I'll give you an example just for us to think about here.

In 2 Corinthians 11 verse 4, Paul warns us. He says that there's people who will come and preach a different gospel, a different spirit, and a different Jesus.

Not saying that there's actually a different Jesus, right? But there's people who will say that there's a

Jesus that is contrary to Scripture. Because you say that the way you know it's Jesus is about how you feel.

But what if Scripture doesn't tell you that? What if Scripture says that your heart is deceitful, desperately sick, that you can't even understand it?

Right? Because someone who's, let's say, a follower of Islam, they can say that they prayed to God about the

Koran. And now they have a testimony that the Koran is true. Even though they believe that Jesus was just a mere man, he didn't even resurrect from the grave.

I would say that's a different Jesus, although they have the feeling, right? So let me test, let me challenge you with something, right?

The Bible, David, tells us to test the Spirit. So I want to know who Jesus is by who he proclaims himself to be.

So in John 1 it says, in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the

Word was God. It says, all things were created through him. There was nothing that came into being unless it was created through him.

And in Colossians chapter 1 it says that Jesus created all things on heaven and on earth, visible or invisible, whether thrones, dominions, rulers or authorities, all things were created through him and by him.

And then it says this, just to kick it off, he says, and all of those things he upholds them with the

Word of his power. Right? So the question would be, if the Jesus of the

Bible is the one who created this, if he's always been God, but the

Jesus Christ of Mormonism is the spirit brother of Lucifer, I'd say we have two different Jesuses.

Right? So who am I to believe? Joseph or the Bible? Right?

Because the Bible tells us in Isaiah 43 .10, it says, you are my witnesses, declares the Lord. The servants whom

I have chosen, that you may know, understand and believe that I am he. It says, before me there were no gods formed, neither shall there be after me.

I, even I am the Lord. Beside me there is no sake. Joseph Smith says otherwise. He says, you've imagined and supposed that God has been

God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veils that you may see you have gotten to learn to become gods.

Right? The Bible says otherwise. So David, what if the feelings that you feel, which I believe you felt feelings.

I'd be absolutely insane to say you didn't feel anything. But what if they led you after other gods?

Gods contrary to the Bible. One that actually can't save you regardless of how you feel about them.

Yeah. Well, for me, to answer that, I can just say that what

I feel is, you know, sincere and loving. But I can't just say that and just expect somebody who, let's say, is not a member of the church or isn't even religious at all to just believe on what

I feel. Right. So what I do is I look at everything I have or don't have and I say that this is what

Jesus gave to me and this is what he hasn't given to me. Which, whether I have it or don't have it,

I'm still eternally grateful. Even the mistakes I've made and the things

I've done to grow from those mistakes help me know that he is forgiving.

And no matter what you do, he is loving and is willing to help you out so you can know that he is there.

That he is the one that died for you and sacrificed himself to save your soul.

And even then, in other religions like Baptists or Catholics or whatever titles those other churches have, they all depict

Jesus as a sacrificial being, you know, and he sacrifices himself. So, sure, some of our religions are different where some of them even depict

Jesus as being God and others depict Jesus as being separate from God in the same way where he is sacrificial.

And even when somebody challenges me saying that if he was sacrificial or if he was different than God or whatever, then why do you believe in this or whatever they ask me, you know?

And my answer would simply be because everything comes from a source, you know?

The Bible came from something, you know? And no matter what version of the Bible it is, it came from something, you know?

And I know for a fact that it exists, especially since a few years ago scientists discovered

Egyptian corpses by the Red Sea, which shows Moses was a real person.

And I remember that so clearly because I was in high school and I came to school one day and my history teacher was like, okay, we're changing history books because of new research.

And in that history book, I see Moses there, you know? And he's a religious figure, you know?

And I'm just like, what did they do? So I had to research for myself what they did and there it is.

Scientists discovered corpses of Egyptians and whatnot, you know?

So even with little things like that, it just shows that every story that is out there came from something, whether it was exactly as it's told or not fully told as it is, you know?

Gotcha. So go ahead, ask your question. Oh, well, all right. So, yeah, we're not denying that your experiences come from like a source or something.

We agree. The Bible says that the Word of God comes from God. It says it is the

Greek, the original words, what it says is, it's breathed out by God.

So the Bible comes straight from God. But what we're sort of asking you is, so you say, well,

I've prayed, I've gone through these experiences of growth, of failing. What we're trying to corner down is we're not disagreeing that you have a feeling and that it's coming from something.

But what we're asking, what we're pushing you to think of is, how do you know that that source is

Jesus? How do you know that that source is the true God, is the true Christ? If you're believing the true thing, is it based on a good feeling?

Because, I mean, the Muslim could also say, well, you know, the good feelings, you know, everything comes from a source and they could blame their feelings on Allah, on their

God. And so it's, we're not asking, we're not like, we're just, with the sources, we're trying to say, how do you know that that source in and of itself is

God, is Jesus, is the true Christ? So how would you? How would I explain it?

In all honesty, in all honesty, I try not to get too personal, too personal with religious topics, especially when it comes to my personal experiences.

Only, only because I, I think of myself as a very, very inquisitive type person where I'm very bland, but, and also

I try not to, I try not to talk about it too much. Only because, only because I have autism and I tend to veer off a lot when

I talk. But, but I will say that one of the things that made me, that made me know which, which is the true

Jesus is that one day when I was, when

I was seven, my grandmother, she, she had passed away. And I, I was just devastated.

I even, I even blamed God for her death, but me as a kid, I, I didn't know that, you know, she was old and that that's something that normally happens, you know?

And then my father, he, he basically read me a scripture about the afterlife as to what happens to us in the life after.

I had a dream that I, I literally thought I was living in it, you know? I thought that I was there.

And with that dream, I saw my, I saw my grandmother and I saw somebody lead me towards her.

I didn't know who he was. I didn't know exactly like what his purpose was.

And, and all I could remember were his eyes and his eyes were like an ocean green, blue or whatever.

It was very, very nice. And so I see my grandmother and she talks to me and she's younger.

She's beautiful. She is walking again, you know? And then when I wake up, I tell my parents about it.

And ever since then, I've had different experiences, whereas different spiritual experiences just happened out of nowhere.

I went to one of the things that I learned over there was that, was that, was about gifts, you know?

Gifts that God gives his children, you know? Even if it's gifts that are like small, like talents or, or even just gifts like seeing the dead or whatever.

And there, I discovered, I discovered a gift that I don't,

I don't tell everybody about this only because I try not to, I try not to pride myself of it or anything.

Yeah, I'm listening. So basically, I was listening to one of the historic sites, like the tour guides, and it immediately just faded away and I was in the past.

I'm not, I'm not saying I time traveled or anything. I just saw everybody living their past and I saw everybody there.

I even saw, you know, Brigham Young just walking down the street like it was nothing.

And then I feel my parents just tap on me like, hey, you okay? And I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah.

And everything was just back. And from time to time, that doesn't happen to me all the time.

It just happens to me when I'm, when I'm like, did this happen, you know?

And so the most recent one that happened was, I was, it was last year in Salt Lake and I saw them building the temple.

And ever since that day, I've been saving money to go to Israel so I could learn more about Jesus there.

Because I want to, I want to, I kind of want to see the past there. And so with the experiences

I've had there, and I'm sorry if it's personal or over -explanatory here. With the experiences

I've had there, I have no doubt what I read in the scriptures, whether it be the

Bible or even the Book of Mormon, that there is a Jesus there and that the

Jesus I've read about is, is the Jesus that I pray to and that I, and that I at times even talk to, you know?

Like, not Him showing up and talking to. It's just, what I do when I say I talk to Him is

I just, I walk around and even when I'm like alone, I just like talk to myself in a way like I'm talking to.

It's like you're praying. Yeah. So let me ask you some questions. It says in the Bible, even in 2

Corinthians 11 where I quoted earlier where it says that there will be people who preach a different Jesus, a different gospel and a different spirit.

If you read further down in the text, it says it's no wonder that Satan even masquerades as an angel of light.

Yeah. Right? So what if you experience things that are spiritual but they are to deceive you and lead you astray?

Because my question would be, is what do you do when Joseph Smith teaches of a different Jesus?

Right? People are, anyway, so what do you do when

Joseph Smith teaches about a different Jesus than the one that's in Scripture? Well, one thing

I will say is, there's a difference between Jesus, Heavenly Father, the

Holy Spirit and Satan. Which is that Jesus, Heavenly Father and the

Holy Ghost, they speak to you in a whisper or they reveal things to you in a whisper, in a still, small voice so that, you know, you feel soothing.

You feel calm and at peace. Satan, on the other hand, he speaks in a louder tone.

And he's, in a way, like, in a normal tone, like vocal wise.

Like he will speak to you like a normal person and try to make you think, you know, he's a normal man.

And other times he will yell at you and say, no, you gotta believe in this or you gotta do this, you know.

He will yell at you because he wants to make himself feel better. And as for Jesus, the

Holy Ghost and Heavenly Father, they don't care about making themselves feel better. They only care about making us feel better by doing selfless things, you know.

As for Satan, he wants us to do selfish things so that he can feel better because he will never be happy.

You know what's funny, though? The Scripture in 2 Corinthians 11, it says that Satan masquerades as an angel of light.

And it says that his people look like they're doing works of righteousness. It appears that they're doing selfless deeds.

But really, since they're done in the name of a different Jesus, a different gospel and a different spirit, that the deeds are deeds of death.

So Scripture contradicts what you're saying. It says actually, no, Satan appears to be selfless to people, right?

He comes as a whisperer in the serpent in the garden, right? He comes to tempt, to also seek, kill, and destroy.

But he does it in lying means because he's the father of lies. Let me tell you this, David. You're an inquisitive person.

I want you to think about this, okay? The Bible doesn't tell us to test whether or not something is true by praying about it and relying on our feelings.

The Bible tells us this. There's two tests of a prophet in Scripture. There's Deuteronomy 13 and Deuteronomy 18.

Deuteronomy 13 says this. So even if it looks legit,

David. So even if it looks legit, but if they lead you after other gods, gods of which you have not known, don't believe them.

That's the first test of a prophet in Scripture. The second is Deuteronomy 18 that says if there's one false prophecy.

So if there's a prophet who speaks in the name of Yahweh, they claim that. But he speaks presumptuously.

If one thing does not come to pass, they're a false prophet. So what I want you to think about is this,

David. The Bible says this about God. Psalm 90 verse 2. Isaiah 44 6.

Joseph Smith says this. You have got to learn to become gods.

He failed the first test. He says, no, God hasn't been God from all eternity. Although all of the Old Testament tells us that God has always existed from everlasting to everlasting.

He says, that's not true. And guess what? You're going to become a god one day. But the Bible says, no, you can't become one.

So listen, in the garden, Satan comes and tempted Eve, right? He tempted

Eve and he said, what did God tell you? He says, go eat from the fruit of the tree over there of knowledge of good and evil.

And Eve goes, no, no, no, I can't eat out of that. God said I can't eat that. You know what Satan said? He says, David, he says, did

God say that? He makes her question God's word and command. And then guess what he says? God doesn't want you to eat from that.

You want to know why? He says, because you will become like God. Your eyes will be open and you'll become like God.

So Joseph is the same promise, my friend. He says, the Bible is missing many plain and precious parts.

You can't trust God's word. And guess what? You can become a god one day. He just regurgitated the same lie as Satan in the garden.

And he leads you after a Jesus that cannot save you. Because he leads you after a Jesus who is not

God. Jesus himself says this, David. He says, unless you believe that I am, ego, I, me, that you will die in your sins.

And Jesus has a plethora of I am statements in the book of John. And he's actually quoting most of the time from Isaiah.

And even one time he quotes from Isaiah 43 .10. He says, I tell you this so you may know and understand and believe that I am he.

Remember that statement in Isaiah 43 .10? It says, before me there was no God formed. Neither shall there be after me.

My friend David, Jesus Christ is the eternal God. Uncreated, not the brother of Lucifer.

Right? Who took on flesh and died on the cross. So that you can have saving faith and peace with God.

Meaning this. That there's nothing you can do to work your way into heaven. Our righteousness is nothing but filthy rags before God.

It says that we were dead in our trespasses and sins in Ephesians 2. Right? We were dead. But God, rich in his mercy and grace, made me alive together through Jesus Christ.

It says this. It says, I was a child of wrath. I'm not a child of God. But it says in Ephesians, I've been adopted into his sonship through the blood of Jesus Christ.

So only the blood of the eternal God can satisfy the wrath of the eternal

God. The God, the Jesus of Mormonism is not eternal. He's created.

He's the offspring of Elohim. And guess what? His blood doesn't actually satisfy fully the wrath of the

Father. Because you're told to work up those righteousness yourself. So that when you stand before God, you have something to present to him.

You're good. The Bible says this, David. It says that when you stand before God, you can't present any of your righteousness to him.

Okay? It says that there's nothing you can do. It's all what Jesus has done. But Joseph's told you otherwise.

Moroni 10, 32. Right? Deny yourself of all ungodliness. It says, love the

Lord with all your might, mind, and strength. Then it says, in your scriptures, it says, then God's grace is sufficient for you.

The Bible's the exact opposite, David. It says, there's nothing you can do. It's solely the grace of God and the grace of God alone that makes you stand justified, which is declared righteous before the

Father. So the call today for you, David, is repent from false teaching.

Because he contradicts the Bible. The Bible already says that since he led you after other gods, that he's a false prophet.

Be inquisitive. Search the scriptures whether to see what Joseph said was true. That's what we're commanded to do.

Not rely on our feelings, but rely on what scripture says to us. Today, you can have faith in the true and living

God. You can put your faith in the Jesus Christ of scripture. The Alpha and the

Omega. The same yesterday, today, and forever. Not the spirit offspring of Elohim and one of his goddess wives.

That's a Jesus that doesn't exist, my friend. So the call for you today, David, is to repent and believe in Jesus.

Put away the past and follow the true and living God, who tells you who he is in his word and you can trust him.

That's the gospel. All right. I gotta ask you one question, though. Absolutely. Okay. How do you know that God loves you very, very much?

Very good question. Do you want me to answer it? Yes. Philippians chapter 2. It says, Though he existed eternally in the form of God, he did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.

Instead, he emptied himself, humbling himself, taking on the form of a servant.

And he was obedient to the Father, obedient to the point of death on a cross. Therefore, every name, right, every person on earth, every tongue will confess, whether it's through judgment and damnation or to the glory of God, that Jesus Christ is

Lord, to the glory of God our Father. I know Jesus loves me because he is God that took on flesh and died for me so that I could live.

That's how I know he loves me. Sorry. Noise is really…

Yeah, I understand. Do you mind if I put on one headphone? I don't mind at all. Hold on. I'll tell you again, too.

Here, we can get away from the street a little bit if you want. Yeah. That's a bit more comforting. It's not like God just stayed in heaven, sent somebody else to suffer.

You can say David if it's like… God himself in Jesus came and suffered for our sins. That's how I know he loves me.

He says there's no greater love than this, the one who gives up his life for his friends. Right? Yeah.

So that's how I know he loves me. Here's the thing. I don't think you could know what love is unless it was

God himself who died on the cross for you. This church doesn't teach that that's what happened. It wasn't

God. It wasn't Elohim who went on the cross in the Mormon faith, but in the Bible it was.

It was Elohim who went on the cross. Yeah. Well, here's something I will add here.

Yeah. So this is how I know God loves me. When we were in the premortal existence, before Earth, before Mars, before anything was created, we were there.

We were all happy. We were all just rejoicing with God. And even

Lucifer was the musician of all of us. That went to my other ear.

Sorry. But at least this helps. But even

Lucifer was the musician of all of them. And he, by description, especially his name,

Lucifer means beautiful, which he was the most beautiful one out of all of us. But God, here's the thing.

He sees all. He even sees every possibility that comes out there, including 14 billion different possibilities of every decision we make.

He could see me 10 minutes before I stretch my hand forward, or I could stretch my hand that way, or even at one point just play with this or something.

Yeah. In many different possibilities and something happening after. So at one point, he knew

Lucifer was going to fall when he gave out his plan. And so he gave out his plan in hopes that Lucifer wasn't going to fall.

And when he gave out his plan, Lucifer obviously fell. But here's the thing. Jesus, he raised his hand because nobody else would volunteer.

And so because he raised his hand, we were given a Savior, and that Savior sacrificed himself for us.

And all the teachings afterwards, whether it be in different religions, teach something equal, which is there is salvation for all of us.

And no matter what religion it is, it talks about us being saved. And one thing

I will mention is that I am a gay man. I am married, and I'm still a member of the church.

And the reason I still am is because there was one chapter in the Bible that actually touched me very much because of all the research

I've done in history, which was Matthew 8 5 -13.

And in that chapter, Jesus met this Roman soldier who had a title that basically in his days was given to men or leaders who had a slave.

Now, Romans usually had slaves that were for sexual gratification.

This Roman soldier, however, he had a male servant who was called a paes.

And the paes is a type of slave for sexual gratification. But this Roman soldier seemed to care very much about his slave, like he loved the slave.

And Jesus, he didn't forsake him. He didn't say, you're making a big mistake.

He was happy that he was faithful, that he could heal his servant.

And he didn't care that that was his lover. He was happy, preached to him, healed his servant, and just told him, go about your day and keep following my commandments.

And for me, that touched me because as a kid, I was scared that the church was going to excommunicate me, that the church was going to kick me out just because of my sexuality.

And when I read that, I was touched. I told my bishop, hey, I'm gay, and I don't want to be called gay.

I just like men. And my bishop just told me, I love you.

And he just told me that as brothers and sisters, we don't hate each other for anything.

Sure, there are some members who think otherwise, but we are a loving people.

And it showed me so much love that I can only say that even when

I have a different sexual attraction, that you can't be punished or even forsaken just because you love.

And there are different religions, like in the

Baptist church, at least from one of my exes told me about, that believe that Jesus forsakens homosexuals.

And as for me, I always thought that that was a little messed up because how can you forsaken someone who loves another person when

Jesus and Heavenly Father teach us to love one another, love thy enemy, and love thy neighbor.

And so for me, even though I am promised a body and to be a god like him,

I don't care if I'm a god because I only want to do my best in this life so I can go to the next life and hear

God tell me, I am so proud of you because you did your best. You weren't focusing on being all perfect.

You did your best. I think that's the issue though, David. What's the third article of faith? Third article of faith?

Yeah, we believe that all mankind may be saved through the atonement of Jesus Christ by the obedience to the gospel ordinances and principles.

So this is the issue with the gospel, right? This is what I was talking about. If you get Jesus wrong, you get the gospel wrong.

God's not going to look at you and say, man, you did your best. Yeah. No, no, no, no. Our best is never good enough.

Never good enough. Jesus and what he did alone is what's good enough. David, with respect,

I don't think you know him. It says in 1 Corinthians chapter 6, and I'm saying this gracefully because I care about you, it says also that love rejoices with the truth, okay?

It says that no liar, thief, drunkard, or homosexual will inherit the kingdom of God.

None of them will. It says it in 1 Corinthians chapter 6. It says, but such were some of you.

You have been washed and you have been cleansed by the grace of Jesus Christ, meaning that they used to be, but now they're different.

Jesus himself says this. He says, what God created in the garden, male and female in the beginning, he says, what

God joined together, let no man separate. Jesus hearkens back to the created order. Homosexuality is against the created order.

It's not God glorifying, it's sinfulness. In Leviticus 19, which is the law of God, it says it's an abomination from God.

And guess whose law that is, my friend? That's Jesus' law. Hebrews chapter, David, Hebrews chapter 1 says this about Jesus.

It says, he loved righteousness and hated lawlessness. That means back then, in those times, that's

Jesus' law. If you're justifying your sin, right, by trying to make yourself feel comfortable by changing scripture, you're just trying to be comfortable.

Scripture doesn't make us comfortable. It confronts us in our sin. If people aren't telling you you are in sin, how are you gonna be convicted of the truth?

The law of God is to convict us of our sins. Look, I'm no better than you. Yeah, maybe you have homosexual struggles, my friend.

I'm a liar. You know what I mean? I'm no better than you in that regard. But guess what? I know I'm a liar because I believe what

God's word says about me. I believe it's a sin. But you've justified your actions by twisting scripture.

Now you can't even be convicted of your sins. In Romans chapter 1, it says, the sign of a mind being handed over is one that approves of things that God calls wickedness.

It says males, right? And if we think about the Roman and his servant, if we're gonna take your logic to its logical conclusion, guess what?

That person was probably seven or eight years old as well. And then they were also probably engaging in pedophilia.

Is that okay? No. Well, I mean, using your logic, it is. I would say I think you twisted scripture to fit your own means so you couldn't be convicted by sin.

David, the call is to repent. Repent of your homosexuality. Turn to the true and living God. I'm telling you this because I care about you because when you die,

I'm telling you this because I care about you because when you die, you're gonna face the eternal

God. He is holy. Yes, he is loved. But guess what? Love also hates. Love also hates.

Why? Because he's holy and he's just and he is righteous. David, the call is to repent.

Turn from your sin and follow Christ today, my friend. The definition of love is to have an affection towards another person, whether it be romantic, familial, or even friendship.

Is that a bit? Let me challenge you real quick, David. Is that a biblical definition or is that a worldly definition?

It's actually both. He's talking about the Greek. It's actually both because God's love is eternal.

It's completely eternal. And not only that, his love is peace, true peace, 100 % peace.

The love I have for, for example, my co -workers in there, you know, the love

I have for them is nowhere near how much God loves them. I could say my love for my co -workers is just 5 % out of what

God loves, which is like billions and billions of percentages, you know? And, and the love he has for them or for everybody is that everybody gets a chance.

Everybody gets a chance to go to heaven. The ones that don't get a chance are the ones who commit horrific and questionable crimes like murder or even, or even, or even rape, lies or whatever, you know?

Other, and like those guys, they don't, the only reason they get their damnation is because they have no remorse for what they do.

They don't have any remorse for anything they do and that's why they get damnations. Those who get, who have remorse are lucky that God has three kingdoms, celestial, terrestrial, and telestial because he wants you to just do your best because he wants you to come home.

He misses you. There it is again, David. Your best is not even good enough. Well, David, we'll put, we'll test you the way

Jesus in his own words would test on the Sermon on the Mount, what he was explaining, expounding the law, like Isaiah says.

So you said, these men do wicked things and they have no remorse. Well, actually, my brother here just quoted

Scripture saying that a man who lies with a man who lusts after a man, that's called homosexuality.

That is a sin against God. It is against the natural creation. Now, you said you've done it without no remorse and instead of repentance and remorsing over what you've done, rather you've tried to twist

Scripture so that you can be comfortable where you are. It actually says, he was quoting 1

Corinthians 6 and it says, no, no, no adultery. Adultery according to Jesus says, you've heard it said long ago that thou shalt not commit adultery.

But I say to you, whoever, if a man lusts upon a woman, it could be a man as well.

He has already committed adultery in his heart. So the man doesn't have to physically lie with the person.

But if he even looks upon that man with lust, even the woman, Jesus says he has already committed adultery in his heart.

It's the same with murder. Have you ever hated someone? Have I what? Ever hated someone? In my past, yes.

Well, Jesus says, Jesus actually says, he who hates his brother is a murderer.

He's already committed murder in his heart. So according to Jesus, you were a murderer and an adulterer.

You've broken both of those laws. And before God, it actually says that because of your sin, your good deeds are dirty rags.

The only thing I will question here is, if loving somebody is something that is wrong, what the heck is that?

He's got in a car accident. He's got in a car accident. If loving somebody is wrong, then, and only then, is

God cruel. But he is not cruel because I know that through his teachings that I've learned, that he loves all his children no matter what they do, even if they murder somebody.

He'll love you because he's a dad. If it's still operable, drive. He's a father. He'll love you, and he may not agree with your decisions, but he loves you even if you're committing murder or rape.

But he's not going to forsaken you and say, I hate you because that's not what he is all about.

He's not about hate. He's about love. And if you commit murder, he'll still love you, but he won't be okay with the decision you make because, like I said, he is a dad.

He is a father. And from what I learned, and from what

I learned in my religion, is that he is, like as you stated, he is not the first God.

And I actually do believe that because if he has a body and he wants all of us to be like him, where did he get his body?

And his body... And his body must have come from, he has a father, probably we don't know if, or have any mention of his father, but we know he has lived before he became a

God. And he is all perfect because of the mistakes he made. And I got a quote for you to say, and it's both from history and,

I'm gonna brag, comic books. History and comic books. And it's, if God is all powerful, then he cannot be all good.

And if he is all good, then he cannot be all powerful. The comic books only states that just against Superman.

In history, it states that to show that God has lived before and he has made mistakes, he knows what the mistakes are and he knows what will make us filthy.

So if he knows that, then he is not all good. And so because he wasn't all good, then he became all powerful and all perfect because he wants us to be like him.

David, see that's the issue I have and what I was talking about earlier, is you're talking about a totally different God. That's not the

God of the Bible, right? The God of the Bible, again, it says in Psalm 90 verse 2, God has been

God from everlasting into everlasting. He's the same yesterday, today, and forever.

God does not have a body of flesh and bone. It says that God is spirit, right? It says that no one has ever seen

God, God the Father, except the unique and only son who has made him known. That's John 1 18.

God himself did take on flesh and died on the cross for our sins. But when you're referring to a

God that was once a man who was obedient to the gospel ordinances and principles and then elevated into Godhood, you're synchronizing

Mormon beliefs with scripture. And what I said earlier was this, the only way you know that is true is by your feelings.

But again, the Bible, which has previously revealed knowledge from God, doesn't say to know these things by your feelings.

It says test the spirits, test the prophets. Joseph Smith failed the first test. A premoral existence for you is not in the

Bible. It says in Isaiah 45 that God created the earth and man upon it. And then this as well, it doesn't say

God learns and knows of all of these alternate decisions that can be made. It says that God has declared the end from the beginning.

God is omniscient and all -knowing. He doesn't learn anything. He doesn't progress to deity. He always was God, David.

And that's the issue. You have been presented with a different God. You're not convicted of your sin because you've never been presented with the law of God.

And it says this, David, again, repent from your homosexuality. Repent from the false gods of Mormonism.

They cannot save you. Yes, God is love, but you know what? I know how love is is because of what God's word says.

It says love rejoices in the truth. The truth in Leviticus 19 says that homosexuality is an abomination.

First Corinthians 6, it says that the homosexual will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, it is not loving for me to tell you that it's okay.

Because I don't want that for you. I want you to repent, which is to turn away from your sin and follow

Christ. That's the call today, David. Turn from it. You don't need it.

What does it profit a man to gain the world but forfeit his soul? You're forfeiting your soul for what you think is right because of your feelings when the

God of the Bible screams at you in his word and says, stop it, David. There are no other gods before me, none after me.

You can't become a god one day. There's nothing you can do to work yourself into godhood. It's solely by the sacrifice of Christ in Christ alone that you can stand justified before the

Father. Again, repent and turn to the living God, David. That, from what you stated, you said

God screams at you, but that is the difference between my

God and your God, whereas my God is peace. Your God doesn't convict you of your sins.

You don't need a Savior. There is no God of peace. His peace is love. And His love is shown not just in there and not just in a church but in a home.

And a home, sure, it has, you know, loud siblings, but when the loudness goes away, everybody is just talking to each other or even, you know, loving or sitting down watching a movie.

That is quiet, and that is all of us together loving each other, spending time with each other, and in a way like that, parents, they don't yell at you when you're having a quality time with each other.

They sure will raise their voice at you when you make a mistake, but a parent who doesn't love you will yell at you and say, you are an abomination, you are a mistake, etc.,

etc. But a parent who loves you will not forsake you, and they will...

It's the act, it's the sin. When I say scream, I just mean God's Word is extremely clear,

David, of the things that you're doing in your life that need to be repented of and you're holding on to them.

You're holding on to them because you don't want to face the truth. It says that you know. I believe what God says about you in Romans 1.

It says you know the truth, but you suppress that truth in unrighteousness. You know that what you're doing is sinful.

Why do I believe that? Because that's what God says about you and God created you, but you suppress your truth in unrighteousness.

You worship the creation instead of the Creator. You worship a creation of Joseph Smith instead of the

Creator, and it lets you approve of things that God calls wickedness. It's in Romans 1. A man or woman who knows that what they're doing is wrong is obviously a sinner, but a person who doesn't know what they're doing is wrong, or a person who knows that what they're doing isn't wrong isn't a sinner.

It's somebody who is learning. But David, you know. You know it. But we just quoted you

Scripture. So with that, the Bible actually says the law of God is written in the hearts of men.

So everyone knows. Oof. From the car accident. Oh, okay.

Yeah, the white car rubbed off the black car. We heard it happen.

David saw it. We didn't get to see it. He saw it. He's a witness, bro. He's a witness. David's a witness. I was just wondering what the cop was doing there when they resolved it.

Sorry. Well, this is what we're explaining, David, is God actually says about every single person upon the planet, even the guys who are in Africa who've never even heard the word

Christ, they're made in the image of God. So what this means is they have the law written upon their conscience.

That's why they don't kill each other. That's why they don't slaughter the ones they love. It's because the law of God is written on their hearts.

But the Bible actually says because they hate God and they love their iniquity, they love their unrighteousness, they suppress the truth of the true

God, and instead they would trade the truth of God for lies. Some are

Mormons. Some are Buddhists. Some are Muslims. Some worship false gods, birds, alligators, reptiles.

Like the Egyptians. Yeah, exactly. That's our point. It's because they traded the truth of God, the

Creator, and they worshiped the creation rather. But the problem is, David, with what you're saying about the person who doesn't know what they're doing, is you're not that person.

You know exactly what you're doing is wrong. The Bible actually says you were convicted of sin, and you suppress your convictions instead of repenting from your sin, which we've quoted

Scripture to you. You instead ignore it and try to push on justifying it. Putting the word love on everything is not going to justify your sin.

We believe that God is love, but love rejoices in truth. 1 Corinthians 13, it says, love rejoices in the truth.

So if you came to us believing a lie, especially from this church, and we didn't call you out of sin, if we knew you were homosexual and we did not call you out of sin, the

Bible, according to God, we would stand guilty before Him as haters of you. That's no love at all.

That's actually compromise, and that's not leading you to the truth. And that is not loving. That is against what

God says love is, is love rejoices in the truth. And another one is, I just remember one thing. Jesus says, if you love me, obey my commandment.

Yeah. Now, what I understand, especially with what my parents, my bishops, and even my church leaders have taught me, is that being a homosexual is not the sin, it's acting on it, and the act is the same as any other act, as in the law of chastity, which is having sex before marriage, or lusting another man when you're in a different relationship, or whatever.

It's the same thing. So, David, sorry, dude. So, I had two stake callings before I resigned.

I was a member for 33 years. LDS theology doesn't teach that. LDS theology teaches that any act, the only way that a homosexual is not in sin within LDS theology, not even

Christian theology, but LDS theology, is that they never act on it. They basically have to be celibate their whole entire life.

So, it's not lusting, it's not before marriage. They don't recognize homosexual marriage, and they do not recognize any homosexual act as being without sin, just like the

Bibles would tell you. So, unfortunately, you can't rely on what they're saying as law.

The law is God's law that's written in the Bible, and in the Bible, it's covenant above marriage. And it says that it can't be, that you can't be saved with that.

So, no matter what you feel, no matter how much you believe, no matter how much you want to really believe this, God is loving you by correcting you and reproofing you.

Love is not only like affirming a lifestyle. Love is not only acceptance. Love is also correction.

So, when a father comes to you and says you're doing this wrong and you need to fix that, is that loving? Yes, because he's trying to point you the right way.

God does that in the Bible. He's saying, sorry, homosexuality is wrong. That is not the right way.

You need to turn from it. Now, whether you accept that or not, that's up to you. But not accepting it is being in sin.

So, you're either in sin or you're not in sin. This isn't a debate issue where you can be like, well, it's not love or not loving.

Remember, God is wrath. The same God that even LDS claimed to believe is the same

God that killed man, woman, child, and puppy in the flood for justice. What happened?

Why was Sodom and Gomorrah burned? Why was Sodom and Gomorrah burned? Sodom and what? Gomorrah. Gomorrah.

They were burned. Literally rained fire upon and the whole place was destroyed. Remind me what scripture that is.

I have a lot. It's in the Old Testament. Genesis 19, 23. Genesis 19. Oh, okay. Now I know what you're talking about.

So, the reason it was burned was there were men in the town that were trying to have sex with an angel who was a man.

And so that's why it was burned. Sodomy. It's named after Sodom.

So, what we're talking about is serious. What you're talking about is like comic books and everything else.

Comic books aren't going to save you. There is no law in comic books. I understand what you're saying. All -powerful

God. Guess what? You're judging God. I would not want to be in your shoes because you're putting a judgment of your own towards the

Almighty. I don't judge Him. He's the one that created the standard. It's His standard, not ours.

And I will never judge Him because He's the one that created the standard. And so I can never say that He's not good because if I say

He's not good, I have to turn to you and say, by what standard are you not calling Him good? I never said

He wasn't good. I said He wasn't all good. Meaning that at some point...

It's not the same thing. That's semantics. It's not the same thing because being all good is where you never committed a single mistake in your life.

He never did. So God sinned? At some point before He got His body. There's the reality.

This is what I was telling you again, David. This is what I was telling you again. The God you're talking about, though, is not the God of the

Bible. And that's the issue. The God of the Bible, again, He has been God from everlasting into everlasting.

He never had to obey the gospel ordinances and principles. Right? Those things don't make someone holy.

God is holy because He is. And the law of God comes from Him because it's part of His character.

He has always existed. He never exalted into Godhood. We have to obey

God's laws. Why? Because if we don't, we're transgressing against the character of God.

Okay? But we're never perfect to the law. That's the point again, David. We could never be perfect as people.

We needed to rely on Jesus Christ again who took on flesh and died on the cross so that when we put our faith in Him, our faith alone in Him, that we will stand declared righteous before the

Father solely through the righteousness of Christ. Being justified means to be declared righteous. And it's not my works, but it's solely on the work of Christ.

Right? His righteousness has been accredited to my account, as it says in Romans. I was in so much debt just by being human that I could never, ever pay for that debt.

But God, rich in mercy, took on flesh and died on the cross so that I could live. The God of the Bible, David, was never a sinner.

Instead, the God of the Bible took on flesh, was tempted in every single way. In every single way

Israel failed, He succeeded once without sin. And that's why He's the perfect sacrifice for you.

Without blemish. The Lamb slaughtered on the cross for you without blemish, without sin.

Your God of sin cannot justify you before God. That's why you have to rely on your own works. It'll never work, it says in the

Bible. It's only on the work of Jesus. Repent again, David. Turn to Jesus, the true and living

God, who died for you. Repent from your homosexuality. Follow Christ today, my friend. Today is the day.

It says in Hebrews, if you hear the truth, do not harden your heart like those who wandered in the wilderness for 40 years.

Today you've heard the truth. I pray for you, David, that the Lord will soften your heart, my friend.

I know you're sincere. I get that. But you can be sincere and sincerely wrong and sincerely deceived.

It's been good talking to you. Yeah. But God was never a sinner. Can I, uh... That's a lie.

That's not the truth. God was never a sinner. He became holy. He's always been holy for eternity.

Can I comment something? What's up? I like both of your accents.

It's really nice. Where are we from? Do you know where we're from? Do you know where we're from?

Uh, I want to say England. Yeah, you're right. I wasn't guessing. I'm from there, too.

My second guess would have been Austria. But, uh...

What, are you ripping off my face? No, it looks nice. As for what you guys stated about God, I gotta ask, was his sacrifice the first story?

What do you mean? Was his sacrifice the first story? Okay, so now you're going to refer to that there's all these other gods that have the same origin story?

No, not what I'm going for. I mean, was his sacrifice the first story in the Bible? Oh, I'd actually say the first promise of the gospel is in Genesis chapter 3.

It's called the Proto -Evangelium, where it says, from the seed of the woman will come the one who crushes the head of the serpent.

It's the first promise of the gospel, right in Genesis chapter 3. Okay. It says that Jesus Christ was slain before the foundations of the world.

Okay. And so, if your God is all perfect, right?

If he is all perfect, how does he know... So you're judging God again. How does he know what good and bad is?

He created it. He created good and bad. Well, here's the thing. If he created good and bad, then he must have known what bad was.

And if he knows what bad was, or is, then he must have done it at some point.

Because somebody doesn't do something without... So do I have to kill somebody to know what a murderer is?

Not necessarily, because at this point, you know what murder is. You know that it's wrong... So you're saying that God has to learn things that he didn't create?

Yep. Okay. Then you automatically, David, you went back to the fact that you're not worshipping the God of the Bible. The God of the

Bible never had to learn. He created every... Nope. You had your time. Honestly. You spent a lot of time at this point.

You've had your time. You're wrong. That's the end of it. The Bible declares to you the truth.

You need to repent from what you're saying and turn to the God of the Bible. They have been very nice with you.

And very, very, very kind with you. But the fact of the matter still stands. You're in the wrong.

You're in sin that you need to repent from. Turn to the actual Jesus Christ, not the made -up

God that you're now worshipping, the idol that you're worshipping, that won't save you. Turn to the actual God of the

Bible and be saved. Or continue in your sin, continue in your sin, continue worshipping that idol that you're putting in front of us, and you're gonna go to hell.

It's that simple. Here's the made -up story. What time is it? I mean, you get the same with Muhammad.

He made up... 937, if that helps. I don't know if you can read that.

I looked like this. I was just checking if it was the same. Well, I don't know if you can read.

When they showed it to him, like, oh, wait, 937. It's 2100.

Andrew? There goes one more. Yeah. Here's the thing, though.

You guys are depicting me as if I'm saying that you guys are wrong.

I am not saying you guys are wrong. I am only asking question after question, just like how you guys are asking me question after question.

But when you say... There has to be truth claims. So you're making a truth claim that there can't be an all -powerful

God who is all good. That's a truth claim. Yes? I'm not necessarily saying...

Then what do you actually believe, David? So go away from all of this tangible stuff. If this is not what you believe, because this is what you presented to believe, what do you actually believe?

Be truthful. I believe in a very loving Father who is my

Heavenly Father, a very loving brother who is Jesus Christ, my Savior, and a

Holy Spirit who guides me so that I can go back to my Heavenly Father. Okay. Let's take this tree as an example.

Okay? Let's say I worship the tree. I can do it, right? Okay, if I call that tree

Jesus Christ, does that make me a Christian? No. Why? Because it's a tree.

The tree gives life. So the Jesus that you're talking about, this God that you're referring to, we've shown you in the

Bible, doesn't exist. It's the same as worshiping... Huh? So just because you're calling it

God... So these are actually from... These are actually from Sandra Tanner.

She was a Christian. She's Brigham Young's great -granddaughter. That's her book, and that's all the documents of the

LDS Church. It's still not God, and it's still not the Jesus that's going to save you. It doesn't matter how many times you want to call it that, and you want to worship it, that's fine.

But we've shown you that's false. So you either... You're at this moment now, okay? You can continue talking, and I get it.

You can talk our ears off all day long. I know who you are. You're fine. But there comes a point in time when you have to go, look, this is the point.

Here's a truth claim. That it's an idol, and it's not actually Jesus, and it's not actually the Heavenly Father that you're following. You're following a false idol, and you're worshiping a false figure that's not going to save you.

You're worshiping the tree. Or, you turn to the God of the Bible, and that's what we're saying.

So that's our truth claim. It's the Bible. We're saying, this is what the Bible says. So now you have a choice. The choice isn't, let's just continue talking about this, because the truth claims have already been made.

Now it's up to you to determine which one is true. And if you don't believe this is true, what we're telling you is, the consequences are easily put in the

Bible as well, as you'll be cast into the lake of fire for eternal damnation, eternal torment, eternal punishment. That's what we worry about.

But here's the thing. Where did that tree come from? God made it. It is just a tree.

But God made the tree. I know. Okay. Again, I think you're nasty. Because, again, remember how we said that people worship creation?

So you're worshiping your own creation. You've created a God that fits your lifestyle, that fits your life, and you're worshiping

Him. But you're not worshiping the God of the Bible. You're not actually worshiping God. You think you are, and you're saying this, and you have great conviction.

So does the Muslim. So does the Jehovah's Witness. So does everybody else that claims that they know who

God is, and they know His nature. You don't. Because He, in His revelation, in His word, in the

Bible, says, this is who I am. Now, you don't like it. That's fine. You're judging God, and now you don't want to be in your shoes.

Come judgment seat if you keep that. That's why we're saying we pray that God softens your heart, and you turn from that.

Because if you don't. I can't change you. I can't change you. If you don't, it's eternal torment, and it's eternal damnation, and it's eternal punishment.

That's where you're at, David. So I really want you to take this seriously. It's not some argument, and it's not some debate.

It's your eternal life. So you either continue down the same path that leads to eternal damnation and punishment, or you turn and you say, you know what?

I am a sinner, and I need a Savior, and that Savior died for me on the cross, and that was

God incarnate coming into flesh to do so, and He said it's finished. I don't need to do anything else.

And you turn to that, and you repent from your lifestyle. You repent from your sin, and say,

I'm not going to do this anymore. If you do that, you're saved. If you do not do that, you're damned.

Okay? We're not gambling with words and semantics. We're gambling with your eternal life.

So you're literally saying, if you're not going to believe the God of the Bible, you're literally taking your roll of the dice and saying, you know what?

Let's see what happens. I don't have enough faith to be in your shoes and judge God. I don't have enough faith to say that the

God of the Bible and what He tells me isn't true. I don't have enough faith to talk back to Him, because He is my

Creator. I am only a creation, and a Creator can do whatever He wants with His creation. It's not up to us to judge what

He does. We can't. It's Him. He's the Creator. You can't just walk up to a person who painted a painting and go, well, why'd you choose to do that?

Well, I did that. I'm the one that painted that. Well, I did it. Okay, well, well, well, well,

I did it. It's not up for us to judge. It's a creation. I'm not necessarily judging

God. But you are. I'm not. You said He's not powerful. You said if He's all -powerful, then He's not all -good.

It's not my job to judge Him. I love you guys. Thanks for coming. It's really good to judge

Him by whoever His Father was before Him. That's what we're telling you. That doesn't exist. So, in His inspired word,

Isaiah 43, 10, says, yeah, I'm gonna, so Isaiah 43, 10 said, there was no

God formed before me, neither shall there be last after me. He says, I am the first, I am the last. Besides me, there is no

Savior. So, either you believe that, but you're not because you're saying there was a

Father before Him. That's not what He said. He said, there's no God formed before me, neither shall there be after me. I am the first, I am the last.

There is no Savior. So you're either calling God a liar, in His words, you lied. That's not who you are.

Or, you accept who He says He is. I mean, I accept who He is, but I accept...

No, you're not. I accept as to what I've been taught, and...

What you've been taught is a lie. And pondered. It doesn't matter what you've pondered. Continue pondering, David. That's what

I, that's what I challenge you with. You said you're inquisitive. Test your prophets to Scripture. Alright? I gotta go because I gotta go back to my, my wife.

But, it's been lovely talking with you, David. I'll be here next Thursday as well. Yeah. But, thank you for stopping.

Yeah. I appreciate your time. You can take some of these. It is a serious thing, okay? And, that's why we're here, because we care about you.

I just want you to know that, alright? Yeah. It's hard to hear some of the things we're saying, but it's because we care about you. Especially, the background noise.

Yeah. You've been a good trooper, man. Yeah. But, you have a good night, okay? You too. Alright, take it easy. You too.