Uncompromising Conversation with a Gay LDS Man

LDS Identity, Missionary Life, and Growing Up in Utah and Puerto Rico

Hey, bro. Gossip track? Huh? Gossip track. Yeah, I'm LDS. How long? Since I was born. Since you were born? So have you lived in Utah your whole life? Where are you from? I'm from Puerto Rico. What? So how many LDS people are in Puerto Rico, you think?

Not a lot, I'd imagine. We don't have too many. We only have like three wards there.

Only three wards? Is there no temple in Puerto Rico? They're building one now. Oh, they're building one? Cool. How old are you?

Twenty-one. Twenty-one. Did you want a mission? No. Why not? I, uh, kind of embarrassing to say, but I didn't feel like I was fully committed to go on a mission. I wanted to, but I knew myself better that I wouldn't be committed to.

What do you mean by that? Just if you don't mind me asking. I just want to understand.

Basically, I learned when I was 17 that missionaries are not allowed to watch or read anything that isn't church-related. So I was like, I can't fulfill that because I love all my books too much and I love all the movies I watch.

So I know myself, I would sneak out and probably... Oh, you didn't want to do something bad.

Interesting. Okay, what kind of movies and stuff are you into?

I'm into sci-fi, action, horror, and history. Oh, nice. Nice, bro. You seen Dunkirk? Huh? Dunkirk? Yeah. Is it a good one? Yeah, it's literally on my number five on my own top ten historic movies.

Oh, nice, bro. My name's Andrew, by the way. What's your name? David. David. Strong biblical name. Yeah. Cool thing about this guy, his name's Nimoa. It actually means chicken. Yeah. Isn't that cool? So that's extra biblical.

Yeah. I'm chicken. My last name is Toro, which means bull. Bull. Cool, man. Cool.

Jesus Christ, the Bible, and Different Versions of Jesus

So we're out here, we're evangelical Christians. We like to get in conversation with our LDS neighbors about differences, essentially, that we have. Do you know anything about the Bible or anything like that, differences between evangelical Christians and the LDS?

Not necessarily that I know any differences, only because I never read any other versions of the Bible. But I have heard different versions of Genesis and Exodus, but I've never heard anything other than that.

Right. Okay. So what do you think about Jesus? Do you think that there's different versions of Jesus?

I know there are different versions of Jesus. When I've done history research, I learned that the concept of Jesus was put into different mythologies and religions out there. So in a technical term, Zeus is a type of Jesus character.

Even the Egyptian gods, they have their own version of Jesus. I don't remember his name, though. Interesting. And then the different religions have to depict Jesus with a halo or wings or whatever. And I say whatever because I don't always keep track of every version of Jesus.

But I have read different versions of him, and some of them are interesting. Others are kind of questionable. But I know that Jesus is very loving, no matter what depiction he is, unless Zeus, because Zeus was not loving.

Zeus is a lady, isn't he? Yeah.

So what do you say about Jesus, my friend? You say you're LDS, but I guess you're not really practicing much, or you just go to BYU?

I do practice my LDS religion. I like practicing my religion a lot. And then I like to research other historic stories and things that help me understand where different things came from.

Gotcha. So with history, I would say the best form of history we have to know who Jesus is is in the synoptic gospels. Matthew, Mark, and Luke, and even John, even though John's not considered synoptic gospel, it's more about the deity of Christ.

But those are historic texts that tell us about Jesus from eyewitnesses. It's the best history we have of Jesus, regardless of the mythology. I know a lot of that supposed history, zeitgeist history, was actually invented after the gospels were even there, because people had to compete with Jesus.

So actually dating them back, they don't predate Jesus by any means. They were created into competition with Christianity. But in regards to Jesus, who do you say that he is? Because he asks his disciples that.

He says, who do you say that I am, David? Sorry, it's just the noise. It's better right here, so we get like an echo. But who do you say that I am? That's what Jesus says. Who do you say Jesus is, David?

I would say he is my brother. Your brother? Yes. And I know for a fact he's my brother. And not only that, but every time I am either at church or on sacred grounds, like the temple, or even at home, and I could be saying a prayer, or I could even mention his name, I know he's listening.

I know he's trying to let me know that he is right there with me. Even when I'm sad or upset. Or even when I'm happy, too. He's just always there.

Gotcha. So you feel something, essentially. So my question would be, how do you know that what you're feeling is actually Jesus?

When I was 8, I was baptized. And I'm telling you a story here. But when I was baptized, I did it because I, in my mindset as an 8-year-old, I was like, my parents did it, my older brother did it, I'm gonna do it.

So when I did it, I just did it because everybody else did it. But as I grew older, it wasn't until I was 12 that I realized why I did it. And it's because I had sat down and I prayed, is this really the right thing to do?

Not necessarily that I said, is this church true, or is that church true, or whatever. It's, is this the right thing to do? And immediately I felt like somebody was listening to me and saying, yeah, it's the right thing to do.

And you did the right thing, didn't you? You did the right thing. And no matter where you are, whether you're in a Catholic church or a Baptist church, as long as you're following Heavenly Father Jesus, you're pretty much okay.

You think so?

He'll love you, you know? You think so? Well, Jesus in His Word tells us, He says that many people will come to me saying, Lord, Lord, look what the works I've done in your name. And Jesus says, depart from me, you workers of iniquity, I never knew you.

Right? Because we can say Jesus, but it doesn't mean it's necessarily Jesus. Because He even tests the disciples. He says, who do you say that I am? I'll give you an example just for us to think about here.

In 2 Corinthians 11 verse 4, Paul warns us. He says that there's people who will come and preach a different gospel, a different spirit, and a different Jesus. Not saying that there's actually a different Jesus, right?

But there's people who will say that there's a Jesus that is contrary to Scripture. Because you say that the way you know it's Jesus is about how you feel. But what if Scripture doesn't tell you that?

What if Scripture says that your heart is deceitful, desperately sick, that you can't even understand it? Right? Because someone who's, let's say, a follower of Islam, they can say that they prayed to God about the Qur 'an, and now they have a testimony that the Qur 'an is true.

Even though they believe that Jesus was just a mere man. He didn't even resurrect from the grave. I would say that's a different Jesus, although they have the feeling, right? So let me test, let me challenge you with something, right?

The Bible, David, tells us to test the Spirit. So I want to know who Jesus is by who He proclaims Himself to be. So in John 1, it says, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

It says, All things were created through Him. There was nothing that came into being unless it was created through Him. And in Colossians chapter 1, it says that Jesus created all things on heaven and on earth, visible or invisible, whether thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities, all things were created through Him and by Him.

And then it says this, just to kick it off, it says,. And He, and all of those things, He upholds them with the Word of His power. Right? So the question would be, if the Jesus of the Bible is the one who created this, if He's always been God, but the Jesus Christ of Mormonism is the spirit brother of Lucifer, I'd say we have two different Jesuses.

Right? So who am I to believe? Joseph or the Bible? Right? Because the Bible tells us in Isaiah 43 .10, it says, You are my witnesses, declares the Lord, the servants whom I have chosen, that you may know, understand, and believe that I am He.

It says, Before me there were no gods formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I am the Lord. Beside me there is no Savior. Joseph Smith says otherwise. He says, You have imagined and supposed that God has been God from all eternity.

I will refute that idea and take away the veil so that you may see you have gotten to learn to become gods. Right? The Bible says otherwise. So David, what if the feelings that you feel, which I believe you felt feelings, I'd be absolutely insane to say you didn't feel anything, but what if they led you after other gods, gods contrary to the Bible, one that actually can't save you regardless of how you feel about them?

Feelings, Scripture, and Testing the Spirits

Yeah. Well, for me,.

To answer that, I can just say that what I feel is sincere and loving, but I can't just say that and just expect somebody who, let's say, is not a member of the church or isn't even religious at all to just believe on what I feel.

Right. So what I do is I look at everything I have or don't have and I say that this is what Jesus gave to me and this is what He hasn't given to me, which whether I have it or don't have it, I'm still eternally grateful.

Even the mistakes I've made and the things I've done to grow from those mistakes help me know that He is forgiving and no matter what you do, He is loving and is willing to help you out so you could know that He is there, that He is the one that died for you and sacrificed Himself to save your soul.

And even then, in other religions like Baptists or Catholics or whatever titles those other churches have, they all depict Jesus as a sacrificial being and He sacrifices Himself. Sure, some of our religions are different where some of them even depict Jesus as being God and others depict Jesus as being separate from God, but they all end in the same way where He is sacrificial.

And even when somebody challenges me saying that if He was sacrificial or if He was different than God or whatever, then why do you believe in this or whatever, they ask me. And my answer would simply be because everything comes from a source.

The Bible came from something. And no matter what version of the Bible it is, it came from something. And I know for a fact that it exists, especially since a few years ago, scientists discovered Egyptian corpses by the Red Sea which shows Moses was a real person and I remember that so clearly because I was in high school and I came to school one day and my history teacher was like, okay, we're changing history books because of new research and in that history book I see Moses there, you know?

And he's a religious figure, you know? And I'm just like, what did they do? So I had to research for myself what they did and there it is. Scientists discovered corpses of Egyptians and whatnot. So even with little things like that, it just shows that every story that is out there came from something, whether it was exactly as it's told or not fully told as it is, you know?

Got you.

Go ahead, ask your question. Oh, well, all right. So we're not denying that your experiences come from like a source or something. Yep. We agree. The Bible says that the word of God comes from God. It says it is the Greek, the original words, what it says is theanoustas.

It's breathed out by God. So the Bible comes straight from God. But what we're sort of asking you is, so you say, well, I've prayed, I've gone through these experiences of growth, of failing. I was about to be like, who was that?

Anyways, go on, sorry. Yeah, no, you're good. What we're trying to corner down is we're not disagreeing that you have a feeling and that it's coming from something. But what we're asking, what we're pushing you to think of is how do you know that that source is Jesus?

How do you know that that source is the true God, is the true Christ? If you're believing the true thing, is it based on a good feeling? Because, I mean, the Muslim could also say, well, you know, the good feelings, everything comes from a source.

And they could blame their feelings on Allah, on their God. And so it's, we're not asking, we're not like, we're just, what the source is. We're trying to say, how do you know that that source in and of itself is God, is Jesus, is the true Christ?

So how would you?

How would I explain it? Well, in all honesty, in all honesty, I try not to get too personal, too personal with religious topics, especially when it comes to my personal experiences, only because I think of myself as a very inquisitive type person where I'm very bland.

But, and also, I try not to, I try not to talk about it too much, only because I have autism and I tend to veer off a lot when I talk. But I will say that one of the things that made me know which is the true Jesus is that one day when I was seven, my grandmother, she had passed away.

And I was devastated. I haven't blamed God for her death, but me as a kid, I didn't know that, you know, she was old and that that's something that normally happens, you know? And then my father, he basically read me a scripture about the afterlife as to what happens to us in the life after and then that very night, that very, very night, I had a dream that I, I literally thought I was living in it, you know?

I thought that I was there. And with that dream, I saw my grandmother and I saw somebody lead me towards her. I didn't know who he was. I didn't know exactly what his purpose was. And all I could remember were his eyes.

And his eyes were like an ocean, green, blue, or whatever. And it was very, very nice. And so I see my grandmother and she talks to me. And she's younger, she's beautiful, she is walking again, you know?

And then when I wake up, I tell my parents about it. And ever since then, I've had different experiences whereas different spiritual experiences just happened out of nowhere. For example, one day, I went to visit, I went to visit Illinois over at Nauvoo.

And one of the things that I learned over there was that, was that, was about gifts, you know? Gifts that God gives his children, you know? Even if it's gifts that are like small like talents or even just gifts like seeing the dead or whatever.

And there, I discovered, I discovered a gift that I don't, I don't tell everybody about this only because I try not to, I try not to pride myself of it or anything. Yeah, I'm listening. So basically, I was listening to one of the historic sites like the tour guides.

And it immediately just faded away and I was in the past, you know? I'm not, I'm not saying I time traveled or anything. I just saw everybody living their past and I saw everybody there. I even saw, you know, Brigham Young just walking down the street like it was nothing.

Just strolling. Yeah. And then I feel my parents just tap on me like, hey, you okay? And I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah. And everything was just back. And from time to time, that doesn't happen to me all the time.

It just happens to me when I'm, when I'm like confused or even questioning like did this happen, you know? And so the most recent one that happened was, I was, it was last year in Salt Lake and I saw them building the temple.

And ever since that day, I've been saving money to go to Israel so I could learn more about Jesus there. Because I want to, I want to, I kind of want to see the past there. Yeah. And so with the experiences I've had there, and I'm sorry if it's personal or over-explanatory here.

No, you're good. I'm listening. With the experiences I've had there, I have no doubt at all that, that what I read in the scriptures, whether it be the Bible or even the Book of Mormon, that there is a Jesus there and that the Jesus I've read about is the Jesus that I pray to and that I, and that I, at times, even talk to, you know?

Like, not Him showing up and talking to you. It's just, what I do when I say I talk to Him is I just, I walk around and even when I'm like alone, I just like talk to myself in a way like I'm talking to.

Yeah, it's like you're praying. Yeah. So let me ask you some questions. It says in the Bible, even in 2 Corinthians 11,.

Where I quoted earlier, where it says that there will be people who preach a different Jesus, a different gospel and a different spirit. If you read further down in the text, it says it's no wonder that Satan even masquerades as an angel of light.

Yeah. Right? So what if you experience things that are spiritual, but they are to deceive you and lead you astray? Because my question would be, is what do you do when Joseph Smith teaches of a different Jesus?

It's gotta be so loud on the street where people are. Anyway, so what do you do when Joseph Smith teaches.

About a different Jesus than the one that's in Scripture? Well, one thing I will say is there's a difference between Jesus, Heavenly Father, the Holy Spirit, and Satan, which is that Jesus, Heavenly Father, and the Holy Ghost, they speak to you in a whisper, or they reveal things to you in a whisper, in a still, small voice, so that, you know, you feel soothing, you feel calm and at peace.

Satan, on the other hand, he speaks in a louder tone, and he's, in a way, like, in a normal tone, like, vocal-wise, like, he will speak to you like a normal person and try to make you think, you know, he's a normal man.

And other times, he will yell at you and say, no, you gotta believe in this, or you gotta do this, you know? He will yell at you because he wants to make himself feel better. He feels better as a man, too.

And as for Jesus, the Holy Ghost, and Heavenly Father, they don't care about making themselves feel better, they only care about making us feel better by doing selfless things, you know? As for Satan, he wants us to do selfish things so that he can feel better.

Because he will never be happy. You know what's funny, though? The scripture in 2 Corinthians 11, it says that Satan masquerades as an angel of light, and it says that his people look like they're doing works of righteousness.

It appears that they're doing selfless deeds. But really, since they're done in the name of a different Jesus, a different gospel, and a different spirit, that the deeds are deeds of death. So scripture contradicts what you're saying.

It says, actually, no, Satan appears to be selfless to people. Right? He comes as a whisperer in the serpent in the garden. Right? He comes to tempt, to also seek, kill, and destroy, but he does it in lying means because he's the father of lies.

Let me tell you this, David. You're an inquisitive person. I want you to think about this, okay? The Bible doesn't tell us to test whether or not something is true by praying about it and relying on our feelings.

The Bible tells us this. There's two tests of a prophet in scripture. There's Deuteronomy 13 and Deuteronomy 18. Deuteronomy 13 says this. It says, if a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and produces miracles, signs, and wonders, so even if it looks legit, David, so even if it looks legit, but if they lead you after other gods, gods of which you have not known, don't believe them.

That's the first test of a prophet in scripture. The second is Deuteronomy 18 that says if there's one false prophecy, so if there's a prophet who speaks in the name of Yahweh, they claim that, but he speaks presumptuously and one thing does not come to pass, they're a false prophet.

So my, what I want you to think about is this, David, all right? The Bible says this about God. Psalm 90, verse 2. That he has been God from everlasting into everlasting. Isaiah 44, 6. I am the first.

I am the last. Beside me, there is no God. Right? Joseph Smith says this. Yeah. You've imagined and supposed that God has been God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil that you may see.

You have got to learn to become gods. Yeah. He failed the first test. He says no, God hasn't been God from all eternity, although all of the Old Testament tells us that God has always existed from everlasting into everlasting.

He says that's not true and guess what? You're going to become a god one day. Yeah. Okay? But the Bible says no, you can't become one. So listen, in the garden, Satan comes and tempted Eve. Right? He tempted Eve and he said, what did God tell you?

Right? He says go eat from the fruit of the tree over there of knowledge of good and evil and Eve goes, no, no, no, I can't eat off that. God said I can't eat that. You know what Satan said? He says, David, he says, did God say that?

He makes her question God's word and command and then guess what he says? God doesn't want you to eat from that. You want to know why? He says, because you will become like God. Your eyes will be open and you'll become like God.

So Joseph is the same promise, my friend. He says, the Bible is missing many plain and precious parts. You can't trust God's word and guess what? You can become a god one day. He just regurgitated the same lie as Satan in the garden and he leads you after a Jesus that cannot save you because he leads you after a Jesus who is not God.

Jesus himself says this, David, he says, unless you believe that I am, ego, I, me, that you will die in your sins and Jesus has a plethora of I am statements in the book of John and he's actually quoting most of the time from Isaiah and even one time he quotes from Isaiah 43, 10.

He says, I tell you this so you may know and understand and believe that I am he. Remember that statement in Isaiah 43, 10. It says, before me there was no God formed neither shall there be after me. My friend, David, Jesus Christ is the eternal God uncreated, not the brother of Lucifer, right, who took on flesh and died on the cross so that you can have saving faith and peace with God.

Meaning this, that there's nothing you can do to work your way into heaven. Our righteousness is nothing but filthy rags before God. It says that we were dead in our trespasses and sins in Ephesians 2.

Right, we were dead but God, rich in his mercy and grace, made me alive together through Jesus Christ. It says this, it says, I was a child of wrath. I'm not a child of God.

But it says in Ephesians I've been adopted into his sonship through the blood of Jesus Christ. So only the blood of the eternal God can satisfy the wrath of the eternal God. The God, the Jesus of Mormonism is not eternal.

He's created. He's the offspring of Elohim and guess what? His blood doesn't actually satisfy fully the wrath of the Father because you're told to work up those righteousness yourself so that when you stand before God you have something to present him.

I'm sorry, hold on. You're good. The Bible says this, David. It says that when you stand before God you can't present any of your righteousness to him. It says that there's nothing you can do. It's all what Jesus has done.

But Joseph's told you otherwise. Moroni 10 .32. Deny yourself of all ungodliness. It says love the Lord with all your mind and strength. Then it says in your scriptures it says, then God's grace is sufficient for you.

The Bible's the exact opposite, David. It says there's nothing you can do. It's solely the grace of God and the grace of God alone that makes you stand justified which is declared righteous before the Father.

So the call today for you, David, is repent from false teaching because he contradicts the Bible. The Bible already says that since he led you after other gods that he's a false prophet. Be inquisitive.

Search the scriptures whether to see what Joseph said was true. That's what we're commanded to do. Not rely on our feelings but rely on what scripture says to us. Today you could have faith in the true and living God.

You could put your faith in the Jesus Christ of scripture, the Alpha and the Omega, the same yesterday, today and forever, not the spirit offspring of Elohim and one of his goddess wives. That's a Jesus that doesn't exist, my friend.

So the call for you today, David, is to repent and believe in Jesus. Put away the past and follow the true and living God who tells you who he is in his word and you can trust him. That's the gospel. Alright.

The Love of God, the Incarnation, and Christ's Sacrifice

I gotta ask you one question though. Absolutely. Okay. How do you know that God loves you very, very much? Very good question. Do you want me to, can I answer it? Yes, go ahead. Philippians chapter 2.

It says, though he existed eternally in the form of God, he did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. Instead, he emptied himself, humbling himself, taking on the form of a servant. And he was obedient to the Father, obedient to the point of death on a cross.

Therefore, every name, right, every person on earth, every tongue will confess whether it's through judgment and damnation or to the glory of God that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God our Father.

I know Jesus loves me because he is God that took on flesh and died for me so that I could live. That's how I know he loves me. Sorry. Noise is really... Yeah, I understand. You're good. Do you mind if I put on one headphone?

I don't mind at all. Hold on. I'll tell you again too. Here, we can get away from the street a little bit if you want. Yeah, that's a bit more comforting. It's not like God has stayed in heaven since somebody else still suffering.

You can say David if it's like... God himself in Jesus came and suffered. That's how I know he loves me. He says there's no greater love than this than one who gives up.

His life for his friends. Right? Yeah. So that's how I know he loves me. Here's the thing. I don't think you could know what love is unless it was God himself who died on the cross for you. This church doesn't teach that.

That's what happened. It wasn't God. It wasn't Elohim who went on the cross in the Mormon faith. But in the Bible it was.

It was Elohim who went on the cross. Yeah. Well. Here's something I will add here. Yeah. So. This is how I know God loves me. When we were in the premortal existence before Earth, before Mars, before anything was created, we were there.

We were all happy. We were all just rejoicing with God. And even Lucifer was the musician of all of us. That went to my other ear. Sorry. But at least this helps. But even Lucifer was the musician of all of them.

And he, by description, especially his name Lucifer, means beautiful, which he was the most beautiful one out of all of us. But God, here's the thing. He sees all. He even sees every possibility that comes out there, including, you know, 14 billion different possibilities of every decision we make.

You know? He could see me like 10 minutes before I stretch my hand forward or I could stretch my hand that way or even at one point just like play with this or something, you know? In many different possibilities and something happening after.

So at one point he knew Lucifer was going to fall when he gave out his plan. And so he gave out his plan in hopes that Lucifer wasn't going to fall. And when he gave out his plan, Lucifer obviously fell.

But, but here's the thing. Jesus, Jesus, he raised his hand because nobody else would volunteer. And so because he raised his hand, you know, we were given a savior. And that savior sacrificed himself for us.

And all the teachings afterwards, whether it be in different religions, teach something equal, which is there is salvation for all of us. And no matter what religion it is, it talks about us being saved.

And one thing I will mention is that I am a gay man. I am married. And I'm still a member of the church. And the reason I still am is because there was one chapter in the Bible that actually touched me very much because of all the research I've done in history, which was Matthew chapter 8 verses 5 through 13.

And in that chapter, Jesus met this Roman soldier who had a title that basically in his days was given to men or leaders who had a slave. Now, Romans usually had slaves that were for sexual gratification.

This Roman soldier, however, he had a male servant who was called a paes. And the paes is a type of slave for sexual gratification. But this Roman soldier seemed to care very much about his slave. Like he loved the slave.

And Jesus, he didn't forsake him. He didn't say, you're making a big mistake. He was happy that he was faithful, that he could heal his servant. And he didn't care that that was his lover. He was happy, preached to him, healed his servant, and just told him, go about your day and keep following my commandments.

And for me, that touched me because as a kid I was scared that the church was going to excommunicate me, that the church was going to kick me out just because of my sexuality. And when I read that, I was touched.

I told my bishop, hey, I'm gay. And I don't want to be called gay. I just like men. And my bishop just told me, I love you. And he just told me that as brothers and sisters, we don't hate each other for anything.

Sure, there are some members who think otherwise. But we are a loving people. And it showed me so much love that I can only say that even when I have a different sexual attraction, that you can't be punished or even forsaken just because you love.

And there are different religions, like in the Baptist church, at least from one of my exes told me about, that believe that Jesus forsakens homosexuals. And as for me, I always thought that that was a little messed up because how can you forsaken someone who loves another person when Jesus and Heavenly Father teach us to love one another, love thy enemy, and love thy neighbor.

And so for me, even though I am promised a body and to be a godlike hen, I don't care if I'm a god because I only want to do my best in this life so I can go to the next life. And here, God tell me, I am so proud of you because you did your best.

You weren't focusing on being all perfect. You did your best. And I'm proud of you. I think that's the issue though, David. What's the third article of faith?

Third article of faith? We believe that all mankind may be saved through the atonement of Jesus Christ by the obedience to the gospel ordinances and principles. So this is the issue with the gospel, right?

This is what I was talking about. If you get Jesus wrong, you get the gospel wrong. God's not going to look at you and say, man, you did your best. No, no, no. Our best is never good enough. Never good enough.

Jesus and what he did alone is what's good enough. David, with respect, I don't think you know him. It says in 1 Corinthians chapter 6, and I'm saying this gracefully because I care about you. It says also that love rejoices with the truth, okay?

It says that no, it says no liar, thief, drunkard, or homosexual will inherit the kingdom of God. None of them will. It says it in 1 Corinthians chapter 6. It says, but such were some of you. You have been washed and you have been cleansed by the grace of Jesus Christ, meaning that they used to be, but now they're different.

Jesus himself says this. He says, what God created in the garden, male and female in the beginning, he says, what God joined together, let no man separate. Jesus hearkens back to the created order. Homosexuality is against the created order.

It's not God glorifying, it's sinfulness. In Leviticus 19, which is the law of God, it says it's an abomination from God. And guess whose law that is, my friend? That's Jesus's law. Hebrews chapter, David, Hebrews chapter 1 says this about Jesus.

It says, he has loved righteousness and hated lawlessness. That means back then, in those times, that's Jesus's law. If you're justifying your sin, right, by trying to make yourself feel comfortable by changing scripture, you're just trying to be comfortable.

Scripture doesn't make us comfortable. It confronts us in our sin. If people aren't telling you you are in sin, how are you going to be convicted of the truth? The law of God is to convict us of our sins.

Look, I'm no better than you. Yeah, maybe you have homosexual struggles, my friend. I'm a liar. You know what I mean? I'm no better than you in that regard, but guess what? I know I'm a liar because I believe what God's word says about me.

I believe it's a sin. But you've justified your actions by twisting scripture and now you can't even be convicted of your sins. In Romans chapter 1, it says, the sign of a mind being handed over is one that approves of things that God calls wickedness.

It says males lying with males. Right, and if we think about the Roman and his servant,.

If we're going to take your logic to its logical conclusion, guess what? That person was probably seven or eight years old as well and then they were also probably engaging in pedophilia. Is that okay?

No. Well, I mean, using your logic, it is. I would say I think you twisted scripture to fit your own means so you couldn't be convicted by sin. David, the call is to repent. Repent of your homosexuality.

Turn to the true and living God. I'm telling you this because I care about you because when you die, I'm telling you this because I care about you because when you die, you're going to face the eternal God.