Jon Moffitt Interview (Part 1)

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the Apostle Paul said, ìBut we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour ,î so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

In short, if you like smooth, watered-down words to make you simply feel good, this show isnít for you. By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as weíre called by the Divine Trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King.

Hereís our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth.

Jon Moffitt’s Church Planting and Ministry in Tennessee

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry. My name is Mike Abendroth, and we are today in the studio talking to my friendóat least Iím in the studioótalking to my friend and fellow In in when in trouble, in trouble,

Today on the show we have none other than John Moffitt of TheoCast. John, welcome to No Compromise Radio.

Wow, Doug, great to be here, what an honor.

Well, how long have we known each other? Have we known at least of each other for 10 years, 15 years maybe?

At least, yeah, for sure. I got to know your brother first, and then thatóI was like, ìWell, if heís that bad, his brotherís gotta be worse, so then I just gave up on you .î.

John, I liked it better 10 years ago when people would say, when Pat and I were in the same room, ìWhoís older ?î. I liked that. But now, when weíre in the same room, they all know Iím older. Before we talk about TheoCast, tell me about your first love, that is, the church that you pastor and where you are, and I know youíve got a lot of California people coming in.

Tell us about the ministry there in Tennessee.

Yeah, so Iíve been in Tennessee for 10 years now, originally born and raised in California, and when we moved out here, I never thought in a million years Iíd be in Middle Tennessee. But came out here, and five years ago we had the honor and privilege of starting a church just south of Nashville, in a little townówell, itís not little anymore, itís growingócalled Spring Hill, Tennessee.

And we have had the honor and privilege of being able to see two other churches come from our church. We have one in Willmar, Minnesota, by Jimmy Buehler, heís the pastor there, heís been there for about two years, and then Patrick Crandall planted just south of us a year ago, and itís been wonderful.

Thatís my heart. My desire is to preach the Gospel, to help people find rest in Christ, and to teach others to do the same. And as the Lord provides, we try and help provide that around other cities. Itís kind of where weíre at, we meet in a gym right now, so if you come and visit us, weíre in an elementary gym, and thereís all kinds of weird, strange art all over the walls, and we love it.

Hey, thatís just like the emergent church back in the day, you just have these weird art things on the wall. Yes, absolutely. Thatís one way of looking at it. So John, you and I talk pretty often, and I know youíre going through the book of James now, verse by verse.

Give our listeners a little bit of the, I donít mean slant in a negative way, but the tincture of James as you would preach it. Most people know that there are over 100 verses with half of them imperatives.

Seems like itís this kind of law-heavy, you know, Luther struggled with it at times. If I came to the church that you pastor, Iím in Tennessee, and I sit down and I hear a sermon on James, what would I be familiar with?

What would be different? Tell me about the rest component. How do you preach James, in other words?

James as a Pastoral Letter for Fearful Churches

Yeah. Well, one of the things that sometimes we ignore when we think about a book, and I donít mean preachers, but if youíre just someone who reads the Bible, sometimes we donít sit back and ask ourselves who the author is, and the authorís going to help you understand a lot of why someone says something.

If I were to read you a phrase, you know, any kind of phrase, and then tell you who then wrote that, youíre going to have a context immediately, whether it was a comedian, it was a former United States president, or, you know, youíre going to have a context right away like, ìOh yeah, their personality, their history, it all kind of makes sense .î.

Well, James is a very wise pastor whoís very respected. We also know him as the half-brother of Jesus. And so James is a shepherd at heart. He is counseling not only Paul and Barnabas, but heís helping guide these churches, and so when James writes this letter, which from my understanding is one of the first, James is dealing with churches that have just been kind of theologically and physically punched in the nose, and itís that panic that you can see when someoneís scared, and they start running on adrenaline, and James is over here kind of like, ìOkay, you guys are running into each other, and youíre causing further harm and chaos, and so we need to kind of gather you back together .î His biggest concern for these churches that just left Jerusalem and acting out of fear instead of faith, and James is saying, ìListen, you are destroying the churches, and youíre dividing them because youíre acting more on the flesh out of this fear that youíre living in instead of living by faith .î I mean, this is why he starts the book, right?

James 1, what does he begin with? Trials. He counted all joy, brothers, when you need a trial. But itís not this weird statistic joy. Heís saying, ìIt doesnít matter what you face, and there weíre facing .î These trials that James is talking about, itís not like a flat tire, you know, like the power went out for an hour.

Itís that kind of trial that sucks the air out of your lungs, when youíre kind of feeling like, ìWow, Iím not quite sure how Iím going to make it to this next moment .î. And James says, ìGodís the one who will create steadfastness in you.

He will produce it in you .î Which is interesting, James literally uses that word ìproduces .î. And so from that moment on, James walks these little churches that are walking by fear and responding out of the flesh.

He goes back and he grounds them in the very hope of why they should ever even consider themselves to be in Christ. And so when you use James as kind of like a billy club to beat people up who are being lazy or who are, you know, to cause them to question their faith, within the first chapter he uses the word ìbrotherî nine times, like, ìBrothers, brothers, brothers .î Heís not questioning their faith, heís saying, ìYour eyes are clearly in the wrong place.

Your eyes are on this world, your eyes are on your flesh, and your eyes are not where they should be .î Which, I mean, right out of the gate he says, ìIf anyone lacks wisdom, let him ask of God who gives generously to all without reproach .î Think about that for a moment.

He goes, ìYou can ask God for help ,î and heís not going to cross his arms and say, ìDid you ask me for that yesterday ?î. Or even just in the same chapter, you scroll down and he says in verse 17, ìEvery good gift and every perfect gift comes from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change .î Meaning, his gifts are not based upon your performance, but upon his sovereign will.

Next verse, ìOf his own will he brought us forth, by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures .î So this is where he runs in a cycle, he will give them a hope, Godís going to preserve you in the midst of a trial, then heíll point out where theyíre failing, and then he points them right back to their hope again.

And he does this in every chapter, all five chapters.

Law and Gospel, Legalism, and the Discovery of Grace

So John, you and I have similar backgrounds theologically. We were probably both taught, at least I was taught, that James is this book, test of saving faith, do you confess trials, because Christians should.

But we begin to study it, and even as you use the word ìbrothersî so often used by James, the Lord Jesus, He has died, Heís been raised, He ascended, Heís promised to come back, everything that have been written in the Gospels, or will be written in the Gospels, has occurred, but theyíre not written down yet, and the first book that pops up, as you said, either James or Galatians, there are instructions, and there are guides, right?

The law is used here, the third use, as a guide on how Christians should live. When did you come to the conclusion that, in fact, thatís the way you read James? I mean, what happened, based on where you used to be and where you are now?

Was it a process? Remember, itís no compromise radio, you canít use the word ìjourneyî, but what happened to you?

Yeah, it definitely was me examining a lot of my theology. So I grew up in a fundamentalist background. My parents were, I mean, my mom is still a wonderful, godly lady, loves Christ, and my dad was a preacher for over 30 years before the Lord took him home, and so I had a wonderful experience as far as just godly parents, but my dad definitely did not understand the law gospel distinction, and often erred in legalism, where they would always say, ìYouíre saved by faith alone ,î and that was pounded from the pulpit, literally, thereís like ring marks left in the pulpit from where my dad would pound his fist, it was kind of funny.

But it seemed as if there was always an ìandî in that, and the legalism would often cause you to doubt. I canít remember how many times I said the sinnerís prayer, because I wasnít quite sure if I got it right the first time.

And I graduated from college and had my first experience as a youth pastor, and it was at that moment when I was preparing sermons every week, I thought to myself, ìI have no idea what Iím doing. All my sermons sound the same, aka at the time I didnít say it, they always sounded like law, all the time, no hope.

Basically do this and be accepted by God after salvation. And I decided to go back to seminary, and it was while in seminary is when I started to really question a lot of the theology that I had been handed, which is a dispensational theology.

And when I was in seminary, I was very encouraged to read a lot of the Reformers, and so I started to do that. And when I did, I started to hear phrases like ìlaw, gospel, distinction, Christ and all the redemptive historic understanding of Scripture .î And I can remember the first time I heard the phrase ìlaw, gospel, distinction ,î which was probably 11 years ago, maybe 10 years ago, something like that.

It made so much sense, because things like the rich young ruler, the good Samaritan, you just hear these phrases from Jesus, and we make them into gospel, but theyíre law. And so it was at that moment the Word of God became alive to me when I understood it from this overarching story of redemption.

And the law exposes our need to Christ, and the gospel is that great promise that thereís nothing that can be done on our behalf, because it was already finished. Like, if you try and add to the work of Christ, thatís offensive.

Youíre trying to put your dirty rags on top of His glorious, righteous robe, and thatís just not acceptable in the eyes of God, and that was so liberating to be able to see Scripture in that way.

Preaching to Believers, the Obedience of Faith, and the Purpose of Good Works

Well, John, one of the things Iíve noticed is, I think maybe the old Mike would preach in such a way where I knew there were unbelievers sitting there, carnal Christians, easy-believism Christians, 1 Corinthians 6, 9 -11 Christians, quote-unquote, and so I wanted to try to root them out and expose them.

And I donít think thereís anything wrong with saying, ìWell, weíd like those people to come to faith .î But that seemed to dominate my preaching, preaching to those people. And over the years now, Iíve been so convicted by that.

Are we not supposed to, as shepherds, encourage the people that are professing Christians, that are struggling Christians, that are Christians who are sadly sinning Christians? Whatís your take on that whole way of even, not just theological, but homiletically in how you preach?

Obedience as Gratitude and the Horizontal Aim of the New Testament

Yeah, so obedience has been an interesting conversation for me, not only for my preaching, but through Theocast throughout the years. The question that Iíve come to lately over probably the last seven years of my preaching is, ìWhy do we obey ?î.

Thatís whatís changed for me. A lot of times, almost my entire Christianity has been, ìI obey so that I can receive rewards from God and actually prove that Iím legitimate .î. And obedience is complicated, because if you take that approach, the question you have to ask is, ìWell, how much of my obedience is required of that ?î.

And, ìDo I actually have the capacity to obey in such a way that God would accept it ?î. Because outside of Christ, He requires perfection. So, letís just take the first act of obedience, which is to love God, right?

Thatís the very most important act of obedience we could have. Thereís never been a moment in my life Iíve ever perfectly loved God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength, so Iím doomed from the get-go.

So understanding the importance of Christís righteousness on my behalf is that thereís no way Iím ever obeying in order to please God or to gain some kind of favor from Him. But when you look at the New Testament, the obedience calls are horizontal, theyíre not vertical.

Theyíre called for the benefit of those around us, because they have a mission connected to them. Like, even when you think about the glorious section of Ephesians 4, when he says, right after heís done giving us all of our Christology, he says in chapter 4, verse 1, he goes, ìWalk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called .î.

So heís saying, right, ìHereís the worthy response to your election .î. He says, ìWith gentleness and meekness and patience, be eager to maintain the bond of peace .î. Well, think about where that direction flows, because the very next section, he says, ìYou together have received one faith, one baptism, one hope, one Christ .î.

So our obedience is designed to care for and love one another, and Paul literally says in chapter 4, verses 15 through 18, he says that when the body functions properly, it builds itself up in love. So the greatest need for my obedience is to create harmony and unity and love and affection and to build up my other brothers in Christ while we await our final resurrection, right?

So obedience is no longer a dread or something to be feared like going to the dentist, but you see it as something as wonderful. For instance, a lot of times when we think about obedience, itís hard because weíre always examining ourselves either in light of someone else or in light of the Bible, and youíre just going to always fail.

But if we live every day walking by faith in the grace of God, then when James describes it this way, he says, ìWisdom from above is pure and gentle, meek, open to reason, kind, thoughtful .î. Thatís how he describes wisdom, which I think heís describing the fruits of the Spirit.

I look at that and Iím thinking, ìI would love to be more pure and gentle and open to reason .î. Those donít seem like bad things, they seem like good things, but Iím not required to do them perfectly, and Iím not doing them.

This is the way that Jesus describes it. I love this. He says, ìMy yoke is easy, my burden is light .î. So to obey Jesus, eternity is no longer in the balance. Like, if I fail to obey Him perfectly, I am not doomed.

Thatís why He says, ìMy yoke is easy ,î because He has now carried all of that weight and all of that shame and all of that responsibility. So my obedience is done out of gratitude for what has been given to me and for the benefit of others.

One last thing Iíll say, Jesus says, ìI say these things to you that you may have joy and that my joy may be in you incomplete .î. And He says that you love one another. So our obedience, one, is for the benefit of others.

It obviously glorifies God, but Jesus says that itís used as a means to give us joy while we await our final resurrection. So itís a very different way of looking at obedience, in that obedience is not necessary to prove my salvation or toóbut obedience is used for the sake of the advancement of the gospel and for our own hope and joy.

Heidelberg Catechism 115 and Why the Law Must Be Preached

Talking to John Moffat today, theocast .org. By the way, John, my ratings will either go sky-high with you on, or theyíre going to just tank. Iím just kidding. Probably the latter. Iím going to read to you Heidelberg Catechism question 115, and then the answer, and then I want you to just make some comments.

ÌWhy will God then have the Ten Commandments so strictly preached, since no man in this life can keep them ?î. Thatís Heidelberg 115. ÌAnswer. First, that all our lifetime we may learn more and more to know our sinful nature, and thus become the more earnest in seeking the remission of sin and righteousness in Christ.

Likewise, that we constantly endeavor and pray to God for the grace of the Holy Spirit, that we may become more and more conformable to the image of God, till we arrive at the perfection proposed to us in a life to come .î.

So Heidelberg asks the question, ìWhy preach the law if we know, in fact, we canít perfectly obey the law that you alluded to earlier ?î. What do you think?

The Law’s Proper Use and the Limits of Human Obedience

Yeah, well, because our hearts are so evil, we quickly assume we have greater capacities than what we really do. And the way I love it being described is that we kind of lower the wall of the law to make it achievable to climb over.

Law light, baby! And the wall. Yeah, thatís right! So the law, when itís achievable, then guess what you donít need anymore? You donít need Christ, but the law in its rightful place. And this is why Jesus says, ìWell, you think that youíre okay because you havenít murdered, but if you have hatred in your heart, youíre guilty .î.

Like, He took the law, and He put it so high that no one could achieve it, ever. And this is whatís so great about the law, in that when the law preached rightly, every person who hears it should say what the Apostles say, ìWell, then who can be saved ?î.

And what does Jesus say? ÌWell, with man it is impossible. With God, all things are possible .î. So literally, what He says after giving the law to those who were accusing Him during, what was that, during the rich and ruler.

And I love it, because Jesus uses the law in such a way where the disciples finally understand that no one can be saved by obedience to the law, because itís not possible.

Well, itís interesting, because when we talk about proper motivations to obey, and a holy living in light of our gratitude to the Lord Jesus and the Father and the Spirit, we get accused sometimes of being against the law, anti-gnomians, an anti-gnomist.

But when you make extra rules, John, donít you think that a sheer legalism and neo-gnomism, new law, that ends up leading to anti-gnomianism? Itís functionally extra-legalism, or legalism itself functions as anti-gnomian, because you realize after a while, thereís no way you can possibly keep these extra laws or keep these laws perfectly, so if I canít keep these laws perfectly, then I might as well just toss in the towel.

Doesnít that happen a lot?

Legalism, Antinomianism, and the Gospel as Motivation

Oh, all the time. Whatís interesting is Iíve seen it in my own life, when I was a young man, Iíve seen it in other people. A lot of people, humans, struggle with this, although if I canít doóI mean, my own kids, like, some of my kids donít even want to try different sports because they canít do it right away.

So they just quit. You know? But we have this nature within us to say, ìWell, if itís not achievable, then why even try ?î. And I know that that sounds crazy, but to preach the law and make it achievable, or have lesser laws and make them achievable, it doesnít actually produce in us righteousness.

Like, hereís the thing that probably gets me in trouble. The law cannot produce righteousness, right? Because where does righteousness come from? Correct. The law cannot change the heart. The lawóbecause thatís the issue of it, is that the issue is with our heart.

And so you either are going toóthis is the whole issue Jesus is dealing with. You either trust that Jesus is sufficient to provide for you your righteousness, all of it, or youíre going to have to create a combination, which is not biblical.

And there is a sense in which we want to fully give up on earning any type of righteousness at all before God. This is why, when people walk up to Him and say, ìWhat must I do to be saved ?î Or, ìWhat must I do to inherit the kingdom of God ?î Jesus tells them what to do, and He requires perfection in it.

And so if we donít see thatóthe man walked away discouraged because he didnít know how to handle the perfection side of it. But Jesus answered the question that he wanted to hear, which is, ìWhat must I do ?î.

But I agree with you that when you start adding law, and if you think that law is going to create this sense of obedience and a desire to obey, itís just not there. The greatest section I see for this isóI already mentioned itóEphesians 4, 1, that He gives the motivation for their obedience is their election.

2 Peter 1, 9, Peter gives them a long list of things that we should be adding to our faith, which are all really great things. He says, ìIf these things are not yours and increasing, you have forgotten that you have been cleansed from your former sins .î So what is He using there?

Heís using the gospel as motivation, not law.

Original Sin, Federal Headship, and Christ’s Righteousness

Itís so true, and when you mentioned a few minutes ago, John, about our evil hearts, a lot of this results in the wrong view of the fall and original sin. Of course, Romans 2, 13, you know, ìThe doers of the law shall be justified.

Î We could get righteousness if Adam didnít sin and we were just doing right things, and weíre not affected by the fall, he wasnít our federal head. But thatís just a hypothetical now, because we are affected by Adam.

In other words, ìOh, letís just get our own righteousness .î Impossible. So when you ask me, ìWhereís our righteousness come from ?î Since it canít be by perfect entire exact perpetual law-keeping, it better be from the one who actually perfectly entirely exactly perpetually obeyed the law, and thatís why Jesus not only died for our sins, but lived for our righteousness, meriting righteousness.

Now, John, I want to have you on tomorrow as well, weíll record that show in just a minute or so, but I wanted to let the folks know, as we wrap up this show, your shows are longer than mine, so I have to stick to 2430, because of all the stations weíre on across the universe.

No, just two. Theocast .org, Pastor John Moffitt, and weíll talk more about Theocast and the Gospel Network next time, but I just wanted to say thanks for coming on. If you, dear listeners, would like to have some messages that are encouraging, not K-love encouraging, positive encouraging, heíll talk about sin, but heíll talk about the cure too.

You want to go to Theocast .org. Is there a link to your church there too, John? Yes. Yeah. GraceReform .org. Okay. GraceReform .org. John Moffitt, Theocast, and Pastor of Grace Reform Church, thanks for being on No Compromise Radio.

Weíll see you tomorrow, same bat time, same bat channel.

No Compromise Radio, with Pastor Mike Abendroth, is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible-teaching church, firmly committed to unleashing the life-transforming power of Godís Word through verse-by-verse exposition of the sacred text.

Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 10 .15 and in the evening at 6. Weíre right on Route 110 in West Boylston. You can check us out online at bbchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.