Truthscript Wednesday: Exvangelicals, Abortion Exceptions, and 911

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David Harris joins the podcast to talk about the articles from the past week on Truthscript.

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We are live now on the truth script Wednesday podcast I didn't want to do the
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Lego movie thing and say truth script Tuesday on a Wednesday I just decided to forego that and have our first ever true script
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Wednesday. So that's what we're doing today We have a number of great articles on the true script website to go over One of them actually made me tear up a little bit.
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We may talk about that But here to join me to talk about that as well is my brother
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David Harris Who's also the president of truth scripts. We practice nepotism here
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So I'm just the secretary which I don't have I don't think that has any authority but David has tons of authority
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So if you have questions for David in a live chat about true script or any of that be sure to Talk to him about that.
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I'm getting a message that rumbles not coming through. So I'm gonna work on that But while I'm working on it, why don't we just start going through the articles
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David? I don't know if there's anything you want to say before we start doing that I'm ready to go.
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I got my neocon mug. So I think we're set All right. Oh Nice.
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Yeah, that's all right. Well, let's uh, let's start here then This is actually an article for next week because it's
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Wednesday today and that was posted this morning But we have three today. The first one is by Bob Colton Who I think is a pastor if I'm not mistaken, right?
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Yeah, or a professor. I guess he was a professor for okay He's he's an older gentleman, but he's he was at Baptist Theological Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.
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That's SB SW BTS. No That's BTS Yeah, I'm pulling it up it's it says right on Bob Colton was a professor of psychology and counseling at Dallas Baptist University so you
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Yeah offended everyone. Oh, I don't know if anyone's offended by that I mean Dallas is I think that's a pretty good school from as far as academically
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I think that's I don't know if that's Dallas Theological Seminary though. We're really getting stuck in the weeds here, but He's a
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Baptist he's a Baptist we can affirm that and Also, and it looks like you're right also from I think he taught at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary member of heritage
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Baptist Church Now he wrote this article that I thought was kind of interesting on Deconstructing and so I I titled
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I put the word exvangelical out there, but you've talked about this a little bit What do you what do you think the thesis of this article is?
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I mean, it's definitely like a more reformed argument, but basically that like the crux of it is that and It says verbatim an inadequate understanding of the depravity of man is why is the reason that he gives or his arguments that?
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There's so much deconstruction Today, which I think is you know, is it is definitely valid?
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I mean, I I immediately thought of like a ton of examples of Deconstruction that I'm personally familiar and it kind of seems like a daily thing at this point
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You know and not just with major leaders like he kind of starts off talking about but people that that I know or we know personally and then you just see something on Facebook or or Some other app or you hear something from somebody that oh, you know, they changed their genders and moved to I don't know
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Minneapolis and helped burn it down in 2020 and you're just like what what in the world happened? Yeah, I've had that a few times.
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I mean, I think everyone has to some extent and It is quite startling I think
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You know One of them was was seeing someone I knew from college who was in the Christian group now
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She has an OnlyFans account and I guess that's how she's making her money And no, I didn't see her on OnlyFans I I saw
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I think was a Facebook thing or something and I'm like, wait a minute Well, you know, it's just obviously not not in a
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Christian setting anymore and another one recently That I saw actually it wasn't that recently it was maybe it was a year ago but it was someone who
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I knew growing up for years who was very active in Christian ministries and also you know homeschooling and things like that and She made a public post about how she's in a relationship with two other people so it's not even a marriage it's a threat right and and just You just don't like hear from these people for years the last you you saw them
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They seem to be doing pretty well or at least, you know They seem like they were semi -solid and then all of a sudden boom, you know
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They this happened. So anyway, it touches a lot of people and I mean
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What do you think the reforms? Way of approaching this is like what's the explanation for it?
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Well, I mean what he goes into is that you know essentially if you deconstruct its evidence that you were never saved to begin with which
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It's funny because like I mean, I live in Tennessee now. I believe I've lived here for 10 months and You know,
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I lived in New York I mean you live you live in the same house that I did for a long time now because I used to rent from from my older brother and Yeah, I kind of forget that a lot of these sort of gimmicky
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This is kind of what he goes into a little bit that these sort of gimmicky Over -the -top altar call is super emotive like Corporate style churches that kind of are more of a brand and he's kind of touching the theological part of it
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But one thing that he kind of made me think of in this article is the cultural part of it and in the South Like this is still a big thing.
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This is still going on pretty extensively that Salvation is almost like a something that you sign up for like a country club like something that you sort of you know, and and you know, right very
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Regular people people that I work with and stuff. Oh, yeah, I go to church. Oh, yeah. I'm my sonny school class my
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Sunday school class to go do this or go do that and It's it's just strange
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Like in New York, you didn't have a lot of that as much because it's a little more black and white and more spiritually dark areas but in the
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Bible Belt you still have kind of Where people will live according to sort of a cultural
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Set of Ideals mostly about I mean the area I live is mostly Baptist and like there's a lot of upsides to it like there's a lot of good things about it, but I forgot that this kind of thing existed where It's more of an emotional thing or you're just you grow up in it.
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You don't question it and then people You know deconstruct or I mean we used to say backslide.
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That's kind of now they see deconstruct But that's the people who are actually deconstructing. I've taken ownership of that word.
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I think he I think Bob Colton used the right word Because that's what people are applying to themselves, but that's a they wear it as a badge of honor now and it's almost like the funny thing too is
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It's not deconstruction is usually usually related to More than anything else is related to like sexual ethics.
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That's the thing that you hear the most today well, you know the Christians were really mean to gay people the Christians were really mean like I just I realized like I didn't have to be a part so I started to deconstruct and So, I don't know that those are things that he brought up that I thought about but his to answer your main question the reformed
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Angle on like why does this happen? Is that the method of evangelism the sort of mass like Everybody's a sinner and if you pray this prayer then you can come to know
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Jesus today and come on to the front Minimizes like your need for conviction of sin and one way would would be that it doesn't apply to you directly
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Like it applies to sort of everybody equally like don't You know, don't don't take that as an offense like everybody's a sinner
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You know you have your sin and and a lot of time that's used to downplay certain sins that are you don't want to Touch on because it's not culturally, you know, you're trying to be culturally sensitive
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So if you downplay sin you downplay depravity then ultimately You don't really have a need for salvation.
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Of course, you're gonna deconstruct because you never really needed to construct to begin with Yeah, there's a quote.
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I was looking for and I can't find it now, but I was reading a book called the demon in democracy I've read it before and I'm rereading it and The author it's interesting.
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He's a Polish. He lived in an Eastern Bloc country he lived in I guess Poland under communism and he
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Decided to immigrate. I don't know exactly what Western country he immigrated to but he spent most of his adult life
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I guess now in the West and What he found when he got there was that? socialism or the communism
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I should say that he was under and Western democracies had a great many things in common.
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And one of the things he talks about is the way they view the church and Without getting into the the details too deeply here
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The thing that relates to this article in my mind is that he said it's you know, I think he's Catholic.
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So he's But he didn't seem like too biased. He seemed like he was pretty objective with how he treated this but he did say
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Protestants had this tendency to focus on the private profession the
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Privatization of the faith in a way. I mean it led to that I suppose in his mind but that they believe that your commitment your decision your
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Your personal relationship with Jesus, right? We hear all these words These terms was the most important thing and they wanted to guard that I think we even see that with the
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Christian nationalist debate today in a way and There is this though This social element to religion that can't be denied and when it is denied you end up getting
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These really aggressive forms of statism and and so his point was that it hasn't taken place in the same way in the
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West, but Whereas in communism, it was just an immediate persecution of Christians very intense
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But it's been ramped up over time in the West and so now we are seeing that it's very possible in our minds that this could could happen and And so, you know, what are the implications
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I'm not saying I'm not attributing it all to this I know this is just another explanation for what we've been encountering with that exevangelicals and the secularization
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In paganization, but you know, what are the implications when churches? Are pushed to the sidelines when they give up or are forced to give up their their social credibility their their
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I guess credibility in a public square for being authoritative and they concede that to other institutions to the university to doctors psychologists
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To experts in the media they when they do that Then they're no longer relevant. They're no and you start over time.
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I think losing your traditions your holidays all the things that used to Remind even secular people.
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I shouldn't say secular but but even people who were not born -again believers They were they had to live under this
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I saw it when I was in Turkey with Islam right in a way and I'm not Saying that the two are completely parallel because they're not but you know
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Even if you're not a Muslim you have to you're gonna hear the call to prayer, right? You're constantly reminded that the default setting that the assumptions of the society
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You're living in are Muslim and that you if you're tolerated are a minority and in Istanbul It's pretty tolerant for the most part
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So you're you you are a tolerated minority, but you don't get to have authority in that And so so anyway, this gets into all these other topics, but I just think it relates to this deconstruction stuff because when people when young people cast aside
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Christianity oftentimes it seems like it just wasn't making that like they reach the point where it
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Was so replaceable. It wasn't really Serving a function in their life
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Because they weren't saved as as the author talks about but but beyond that there just wasn't any
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Like they wholesale reject it like in every every single element of it
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Like they reject there's there's not even like a traditional component that they want to keep around and I and I wonder if it has to do with that secularization, but anyway,
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I I mean like Ultimately the church, you know, the church's number one goal and mission is to you know provide hope for a doubt for dying humanity and to you know, not just that but also instruct in biblical morality and if when the church and I feel like this actually relates to the second article because the pro -life movement is an excellent example of how that's kind of slid in out of the you know, what a mission drift how that's become a mission drift because When you and I don't know
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I can lead into the second article if we want. Yeah. Yeah go for it. So This and this would be the relation a lot of people who most of the people
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I know who deconstructed personally It's like this is a ultimately if you deconstruct fully if you reject
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Christianity It's a that's pretty big pretty big deal, especially if you grew up in it you're you're saying that the only way like you did believe or at least you aspired to believe that You're a sinner and you're going to burn in hell for all of eternity unless You put your trust in Christ and you know, that's a pretty significant
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I think that's like that's the most significant thing that there is So if you reject that why would you not reject everything else?
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Like of course, you're gonna reject everything else and When the church so then when if the church is wishy -washy or wonky on that at all
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Then of course, it's gonna be wishy -washy wishy -washy wishy -washy on every social societal issue too and a lot of the people that I knew like in college that deconstructed and I I think
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I've shared this before but when I went to I went to a very like secular very left -leaning school in Upstate New York that was staffed by a lot of ex -hippies who had come to New York for Woodstock and never left
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So it was a you know, extraordinarily a left -wing place but there was a fairly robust like Christian group on the campus that I went to and You know, we did quite a few events
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I mean we can talk about the abortion debate because I feel like that that's what I thought of when I was reading this article but there was a there was a pro -life group on campus that was mostly
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Catholics and I'll never forget. This was my first exposure because like I knew about abortion, you know,
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I knew it was a horrible thing I knew it was a big issue it was never my it was never something that I think interested me a ton in like as as as much as other you know, apologetic issues or moral issues or political issues because I think it's because it has to do with Pregnancy and birth and women and I'm a guy and I just didn't really think about it a whole lot but I always knew it was evil and when when
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I was at college and we scheduled that debate you remember because you were the one who did the debate and I was kind of behind the scenes
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This is actually 10 years ago. It's just a little over 10 years ago I was behind the scenes like doing all the setup and I'm like coordinating
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Who's gonna who's gonna? Moderate the debate. Who are we going to debate it? Who would who are you going to be debating and then like trying to get other clubs to join in and be a part of this?
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And so I'm thinking like obviously We'll have you know our group and then we'll have the the main
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Christian group on campus like I was saying that they would want to be a part of this they didn't and It's dead because they were the ones who staffed the other side
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But then the one that to me that would have been the most obvious of any group was the pro -life group like literally that is the point of your your group, but yeah,
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I Forgot about that, but you're right. They didn't want to sponsor or be a tree like associated in any way with you remember why?
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No, I had the meeting. I had the meeting with the head of the pro -life Club. She wanted to meet me and Talk about her concerns.
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I was like What like isn't this fantastic your whole thing is being pro -life and we're gonna debate it on campus like it's the marketplace of ideas and She's and basically it all came down to one thing
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She was concerned that we might show pictures of aborted fetuses, right? We did show pictures of aborted fetuses then they didn't want to be a part of it because you know that that can cause a lot of trauma and I remember just thinking at the time like Yeah, there was a little
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A video I think I showed that did I think I did show some aborted fetuses and I think
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I warned everyone but Yeah, I was it was part of the and I said that like we can do a warning we can like we can tell people
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Hey, this is gonna happen Like if you're gonna you're gonna get triggered by this then you don't be a part of this
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But I that was like that was the first time that I realized. Oh the pro -life movement Isn't as pro -life as I thought it was and then this came up over and over and over again in different forms and so then like when last year when
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Roe v. Wade got overturned and Like everyone is everyone sort of like oh, yeah, we won and you know, you didn't win
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You still have to pass it on the States You can go into that but Yeah, no, that's interesting and I remember the other
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Christian group on campus That we thought would probably be somewhat supportive decided
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I think they scheduled that night like a ultimate frisbee Competition literally to try to take people away from the event.
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It was one of the most amazing. It was an eye -opening thing I feel like these past 10 years. I've just had one eye -opening
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Redpill moment after another, you know, like think thinking it's one way and then realizing oh, man, it seems like it's worse than I thought it was and and and you know that I guess that's kind of a depressing thought but it's
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I think it's good to know what your actual numbers are what you're what you're actually dealing with and So but it went well the event went.
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Well, I remember that and Yeah, I think that Yeah, it's on it's on YouTube it's all
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I think my youtube channel if you want to check it out But so anyway the article though, let's talk about that so This is pro -life except in the cases of and it's by our editor one of our editors
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Jan Weaver Who volunteers her time? She's really good at what she does to Edit articles that you all submit and I didn't even give the plug at the beginning
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I probably should have but if you go to true strip comm Scroll to the bottom. There is a publish tab you click on that and there's a form
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You can fill out if you want to submit an article We also by the way take donations it is 501 c3
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So if you feel compelled to donate to what we're doing, I know we would all
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David especially would appreciate that and it enables us to do more and I think right now that a lot of people are
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Desiring that wanting an evangelical Christian organization to Address issues people are actually asking and not to be afraid of those things and that's kind of what true script does
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So go through the article then maybe maybe I should read some of it. I don't know. I mean, it's It's kind of it has a kind of has a like a tipping point because yeah
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I don't know if you if you if we want to kind of do the big reveal, but You know
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Jan talks about which just kudos to Jan Jan was Jan really was very transparent in writing this and I'm sure this was a very very difficult thing to write but this is the kind of stuff that the pro -life community really needs to read and You know,
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I would really recommend If you haven't read it yet read it and share it to like especially if you have people in your church who are really raw
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Raw about pro -life stuff. I think they would probably get a lot out of this. But yeah, you know, she starts off talking about The whole rape and incest so exceptions for rape and incest.
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She talks about Holy Post She talks about Phil Vischer and Skye Jethony who co -hosts the
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Holy Post. I thought it was Jethony Jethony was a
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Star Wars Okay Yes. Yes Skywalker and yeah, okay.
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All right. I always thought it was Jethony but either way Skye Is not super worried about abortion
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Yeah, well he thinks that It's not about what laws you have on the books but whether or not you can reduce the number of abortions that's the main thing and he thinks that he's figured he has a better formula for addressing that through social justice rather than making abortion illegal, basically and and so she she critiques that as pragmatism and And She talks about I guess just how this
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Kind of like the frog in the kettle how this Gradually moves people from my body to my body my choice to this because that's the underlying assumption here really
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It because if as soon as you assume that it's an actual person then that changes everything right and so Then then
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I guess is the big story. She goes through Critiquing this because she thinks it starts with For Christians at least this idea that oh except in the cases of rape and incest, right?
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And then that moves you to my body my choice position But she wants to nip it in the bud and the way she does it is she tells this story about this girl 15 year old
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Anna and How Anna gets pregnant and it's pretty well written and it's pretty emotional and I don't know if you want to you know, talk about that at all or I think
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I think it might be best to let people read it because if you just kind of talk about it and You know, she tells the story and the story is
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It hits hard. Yeah It is probably one of the better To send to a
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Christian at least pro -life or anti -abortion articles that you could send to someone
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To really just kind of jolt them a little bit. It's just it's well done so check that out pro -life except in the cases of and if you ever hear anybody say
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You know, well, I'm pro -life except for you know in cases which I have heard I've heard it a few times You don't hear that a lot.
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I feel like in Christian circles. You might hear it more in like Neocon circles, but I think
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I didn't President Trump say something to that effect not too long ago Or like they should have allowed exceptions for this or that I mean that's
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I feel like that's a Republican talking point That's like basically every Republican. It's like oh, we're pro -life, but you know, we need to have it
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Yeah, Trump's all over the place though because I remember what 2016 he was saying women should be punished for it and everyone lost their mind and And now yeah, that would that makes sense though.
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I'm pretty sure because I I remember I was with Senator Steve King once had a dinner a few years ago and he told the story about meeting with President Trump on the issue of abortion and President he brought actually it's kind of funny.
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He brought a woman from Iowa with him, I guess and she had
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I guess she hadn't had an experience where she was raped had a child and is against the exceptions, you know the rape incest exceptions and so she's sitting there in the
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Oval Office with President Trump, you know, just met him and with Steve King and Trump Trump I guess pull
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Steve King aside and basically says where do you find these people? because he just could not believe that someone who had gone through that experience would be supportive of Not allowing abortions for other people going through that experience to alleviate it somehow
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He says where do you find these people? You know and Steve King said they're all over the Midwest. Mr. President, but But yeah,
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I mean that so whether or not it's public I know privately President Trump has said that and that is kind of like the
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I guess That's like the default setting for most Republicans is well, we're pro -life.
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But you know those there's those exception cases So anyway, we
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I should probably just ask that there's some people in the private chat here I'm just gonna see
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Do you want to tell your story first or do you want to go to Some people in the private or in who are waiting to come on first and then go to your story
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We can we can let some people come on. All right. All right, Mark. I'm gonna pitch it to you here
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So make sure you're you're unmuted See if I can there you go.
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Hey mark. Hey, I See your hand what's going on? Hey, yeah, you're so for those who don't know mark on Twitter, I don't know if you just started doing
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Yes, yes Yes, are you know canceled mark ever well
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I'm so overjoyed The two fellows in the back, you know, they were cuddling on the couch
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They got their their moment in the spotlight that everyone could see that's what I'm excited about Okay.
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Well, you have a lot of videos you post on Twitter doing construction. Is that what you do? It's just are you like an independent contractor?
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I'm trying to be but right now I'm getting the experience.
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Okay. Yeah, so I work for Warden home improvements. I'm in Western, Maryland right now in the tri -state area.
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So West Virginia and Pennsylvania all right here together Yeah, so We're doing multiple jobs right now multiple additions renovations
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We even build whole entire houses. So What I'm doing now since Elon Musk is open up ad revenue sharing for everyone
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I've been making excuses about not creating content and doing Podcasts or whatever online for years and watching people talk about it and all that And I finally said what am
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I waiting for? I just it clicked and I'm going after it now So I'm posting on Twitter and other places, but I've also
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Bought the domains or make your mark craftsman calm and net and I'm going to be setting up LLC Get a website going so I can bring this all together into a website showcase my
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Abilities and so forth Have a brand presence online, but also build up locally and Whatever so that I can yeah
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Awesome, I think you're doing it right because you're focusing on something that you enjoy you're good at and you a lot of people
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I think make the mistake of Trying to get involved in like a political discussion or a theological discussion when they just don't really have
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Some sometimes that's just not their thing right and but they care about it Which all we all should care about those things
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But you know I've advised people like find your thing find the thing that you really enjoy and like to talk about that lights you up and So and you're definitely, you know, you're definitely motivated about construction and stuff.
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So I'm all in on it because It's so wide open
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For people who are on on the fence about what to do, especially young people get into trade work now
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Because there is so much work Everyone's always gonna need a toilet gonna need a receptacle to plug their devices into and gonna need a roof over their head
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And robots cannot do those jobs robots cannot frame a house they can't build a deck they can't do that stuff
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Get into it. Now. It's wide open make it happen. Yeah. Yeah good advice from Mark Dever from From from 10 marks,
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I guess 10 marks construction Did you have anything to add to the show or out of any the top 10 marks the healthy deck, you know
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That's what I'm good for Well, you know,
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I think the deconstruction stuff it's just it's goofy It's just another way to like be edgy and weird and not really be a
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Christian Like what it's it's unbiblical. Why would you say
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I'm a Christian and I'm gonna start just piece by piece tearing off everything
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That makes you an actual Christian, I don't understand the point are you following Christ are you just like Doing what you want to do
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Point to because it is like it is kind of trendy to do it in stages And I feel like I had this conversation yesterday with my wife like you're talking about somebody who has
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Made some you know, like I I left this church and I'm gonna go to this church or you know,
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I don't know I just don't know how I feel about the tone here and and then and like, you know on my mind I'm like, okay, so you're decontrolling you you're you're not in anymore.
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Like you decided this isn't for you Maybe you were never saved. I don't know like I don't know how far you're gonna take it But it's sort of like this gradual like oh i'm gonna do it in steps
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Like i'm gonna do it like a tv show like this is season one And season one I leave my original church and go to like a little woker church in season two
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I get a tattoo in season three. I start vaping and then it just it's kind of good.
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Yeah What you'll notice I think to tell Is the fact that they have to announce it
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If if this is just what you're doing You know, you don't have to announce it to people
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Why do they make it a point to let everyone know this is what we're doing? And to your point of the trendiness look at the people who are deconstructing
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You know in the public eye You're christian rappers and you're christian musicians and You know, you're christian cartoonists and all that kind of stuff.
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So It's people it's kind of like the reality shows. It's when famous people Started dropping down to the b -list and the c -list and the d -list and then all of a sudden they would be on a reality show
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To try to get popular again. I don't know. I just think honestly it's it's for attention
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Why are you talking about tearing your? Your Your salvation and your belief in jesus christ is the risen lord and savior of your life
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And you're going to talk about how well i'm just going to keep stripping all this stuff of biblical christianity
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Away from my life. I don't understand the point So yeah, yeah, they're not just doing it with even christianity though They like it also gets into usually even the deconstruction stories start out with like a political thing
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Like, you know, I I grew up in a republican household and we were patriotic and we supported the president or whatever and then
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I realized that the republicans are just awful and uh, and that like, you know leads to The reason that we were supporting republicans was because we were christian.
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So christianity must also be awful and it's uh It's like every single element of their childhood and Their any attachments that they formed at that time must all be severed must all be rejected
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Uh, it's a remaking of oneself. It's like a new it is like being born again in a secular
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But it's born again To what you want, right? It's conforming it to human
33:00
Desires of whatever you want your image to be a lot of times. It's not conforming to christ so yeah
33:09
I agree, man. I totally agree I appreciate you have mail. Yeah. I appreciate you mark.
33:15
Thanks for the support and uh, Yeah, we'll talk to you later All right. Oh, I cut mark off.
33:20
Sorry That was kind of rude of me there. He's giving me the thumbs up. All right, so, um
33:27
So so the last article is written by actually you So I wrote it.
33:32
I gotta see if I can remember what I wrote. Well, I mean, this was uh Actually, this was a really this was a very
33:41
Emotional This was this was a lot more emotional than I expected. Like I thought I had a very hard time writing this
33:48
And i'm not sure why um, but Every year and I was kind of interested to see what your memories were too since obviously we
33:57
You were 11. I was 9 when this happened, but every year around september I don't know if this is different because we're new yorkers and because we were pretty close to where this happened
34:08
But every year around sept, huh? I was 12, but anyway, you would just turn 12, whatever.
34:13
Yeah I was almost 10 um every every year around september For several days.
34:21
I just have like I don't I you know you you uh You'll be reminded that that it happened and I'll always find myself like digging into like some of the dark side
34:35
Of the event, you know, like when the people were jumping out of the buildings. That's one that sticks in my head like really, uh very strongly and every year around the anniversary i'll kind of drift into this
34:49
Just like remembering because it's so vivid and when I was reflecting on it this time because it's just The weird thing about this year is and I kind of mentioned this in the article um
35:01
This is a few paragraphs down But I said it's incredibly surreal to realize that 20 years have now come and gone since that time
35:08
And I just talked about how like my perspective on this recently has sort of shifted like sort of politically like I don't and i'm not like i'm not really on the
35:20
I I have a lot on my plate So I don't have a lot of time for like digging into conspiracy theory stuff
35:25
So a lot of the time when I have discussions with people about like did this happen or this happen? I can at least say at this point.
35:32
I don't know Like I don't know. I don't really know everything that happened that day I'm, not sure i'm not convinced that like though.
35:39
I do know that like the whole political narrative around that that we kind of like especially on the right we're um
35:46
Almost pigeonholed into like we were really really ra ra ra For iraq and afghanistan and everything around that I I don't know.
35:55
I don't know what uh, I don't know what the administration knew. I don't I don't know what anybody know I'm, just not sure.
36:01
I have lots of questions. What I do know is, you know is what I remember being nine years old and seeing all that happen and that was like a
36:09
You know and just an intense loss of innocence You know and that's true for I think for a lot of people and you know anybody around Anybody who is coming of age during that time, but you know being around nine ten eleven twelve years old
36:23
Um, that's that's like a that's a lot to be exposed to in a very short time
36:29
Like I remember distinctly and I mentioned this as well. I had no I didn't know what islam was I still remember not knowing before 9 -11 what islam was and afterwards knowing what it was
36:37
Like I had no idea and so you're you're asking these questions that just challenge your entire.
36:43
Um your entire paradigm, but I don't know like I would go into some of my like my takeaways in the end.
36:52
But what do you remember about that day? I don't know you could do a whole podcast on that. I don't want to Like talk too much.
36:58
Uh, I remember sitting there. Well, we had a town day the day before so uh
37:05
We so I think it was was it on a monday that night? It was tuesday So the town day was sunday sunday,
37:11
I guess so maybe so there was another okay so I I remember that happened right before and um
37:18
It was a very clear day And we were having breakfast in the kitchen and that's when um mom got a phone call and it was uh
37:28
I remember it was well, I don't know if I want to say the name. Well, I Doesn't really matter. I guess it was it was michael.
37:34
Chaboy. I think it was another Uh around our age and he said hey the united states is under attack or something
37:40
My mom like ran to the living room turned on the tv and and the second plane had not hit yet It was just the first it was like a couple minutes though before We turned it on right before the second plane hit yeah, we turned it on and then the second plane hit and then
37:55
Yeah, the tv was on the rest of the day and like a bunch of I think the the networks though like started going out because I don't know.
38:03
I guess some of the towers or what? I think we had an antenna and like or maybe it was the cable. I don't
38:08
I don't remember but We weren't we didn't have access to all the channels and then they started piping in like fox news and we and that was on for like, you know the next three days or so um
38:19
And I remember that night it was either that night or the night after I think it might have been that night There was a special service at the church and for the next few weeks
38:27
We saw all kinds of people showing up to church that we had never seen Uh just from the community and uh,
38:34
I remember dad started a series on islam at the church and That so everyone was learning about that.
38:42
There was such a high demand to know, you know, what is this threat? What is this new? Enemy we have basically um, and I I got
38:51
I remember I I took it in on so well that I remember I was at a restaurant once and we had a waiter It was with some friends, uh right after that and I was conversing with one of them and I said that you know islam's not a religion of peace or they'd say that but That's not really, you know, that's not what uh, jihad
39:10
Is and and anyway, I mean I was just repeating what I had heard in some of these. Uh, um
39:16
In some of the I guess the materials that we were learning And I remember the waiter though happened to be islamic and got really super defensive like Was just really and I had to kind of like, you know say hey, sorry, man
39:28
You know, I wasn't even talking to him, but he he just got really upset about it. And so tensions were high
39:35
Now he didn't know it was more just like uh You know You're wrong you don't know what you're talking about i'm islamic and islam means peace and stuff so now
39:46
I know he didn't know what he was talking about either, but But it was just uh, it was just high tensions and then
39:51
I remember not long after that We had we were flying I think to california or something as a family and was the first time
39:58
I had seen the security measures Like the insane security measures we were searched
40:06
And I just remember thinking as we were walking in the airport This will never last this this isn't going to last uh, people aren't going to stand for this because this this is like harassment
40:15
And and I don't know if you remember at the time. There was a whole debate about the um the new like Sort of x -ray or whatever they were
40:25
However, they were like getting body images of people the new machinery. They were they were putting in there and there was a whole debate about uh
40:34
Whether that was inappropriate or not, you know, whether perverts would be looking at these images um
40:39
You know, there was a whole debate about racial profiling and that was a time when conservatives were pushing for it
40:46
It's funny right now today that would never happen, you know post 2020 especially but back then
40:52
There was a lot of conservatives who thought like why not like if it's young muslim men who are doing this who look arabic then why don't you like target like like Like look at them when you're doing the pad downs and stuff and there was all these stories about like you know frail old ladies from the midwest getting like inappropriately touched and stuff and so so there's all this turmoil, um and and so I guess that nothing's changed in that regard things have gotten worse as far as social turmoil, but it's
41:22
I think it's surreal looking back. Maybe that's why it was hard for you to write it because You're looking back on what you know is the end of a different age
41:30
It's you didn't realize you were in it at the time. But now looking back In retrospect, you do realize
41:37
That 9 11 was the end of something Um, I think it was when we talk about like post world war ii era
41:43
I think 9 11 was the end of that effectively that was or at least the beginning of the end like that kind of notion that america
41:52
Um, some people say this this ended in 89 when the berlin wall fell, but I don't think so I think
41:57
In the 90s america was still on kind of a very cold war footing And uh,
42:02
I mean i'm a child. I grew up. I I was born in 89 and I I would consider myself part of that like I There was still very much a patriotism
42:12
You saw it in civic rituals like flag day and things like that people showed up for those things um the movies on television very patriotic, but it was like mostly based around world war ii
42:24
That we were the good guys in that conflict and then every conflict since then we were also the good guys And we're just we're a force for freedom
42:31
And america's good and america believes in god. That's one of the things that makes us good and everyone just believed that um 9 11 was the end of that I think and and that's why
42:44
I think part of it's hard to look back at it because It's it's like seeing
42:50
You wonder what could have been you wonder whether that could you see an opportunity for national revival?
42:56
In that situation like people were coming to church for a little bit and then they stopped people were putting their flags all out
43:02
And you felt like you were one with everyone for just a little bit like you were actually together as americans even democrats and republicans for like a week or two were uh, you know sharing the same sentiments and You know, it just felt like we were one like americans were americans we had a common enemy and um
43:22
And it was like we're gonna go back to the way we were, you know world war ii uh during that conflict and And it just wasn't to be that just did not last and and I and so seeing the division now
43:35
I think it's just depressing a little because you're just like We had that moment and and now it's totally gone
43:42
And now not as it only is it gone but we're cynical about it Like we we look at it and we say hey, that's what they use to get the surveillance state in and you know all that stuff that we meant for um
43:56
For surveilling or you know protecting ourselves was used against us and is still being used against us and we have a weaponized
44:04
Deep state that's imprisoning january 6 prisoners. It's so surreal the guy, you know, george bush george w bush who was the
44:12
President at the time of 9 -11 who would have thought that he would say something like january 6 was like just as bad or worse than 9 -11 like Insane that it's insane and and you just think
44:23
It makes you not trust him and at the time you had so much trust in him that he really loved
44:29
You remember the yankees, uh, the yankees playoffs after right after when he threw the opening pitch?
44:35
Yeah, I do. Yeah, I mean that was a moment You everyone you still can get chills thinking about that moment.
44:40
It was It was incredible like that there I don't know if there ever was a cheer In the united states like there was that night at that game
44:48
You know because like what it ought whatever, you know, and he just you know, he threw a baseball But what it represented to it because it was in new york
44:55
Yeah, you know and it was it was just it was amazing, you know, well we were We were close to it, too
45:02
I think you mentioned that we live not far. We're 78 miles from the towers So we went down to a funeral of someone who had died in it
45:09
We knew people that were in the towers in our church who had gotten out We we were like if we went up to mount beacon, which wasn't far we would have been able to see the smoke.
45:18
Yeah It wasn't uh all that far and you know, I I think that also plays into it like Uh, just being that close to it every town
45:27
In our area has 9 -11 memorials and every single one of them has a piece of the world trade center at those memorials um,
45:36
I remember, you know, there was just funerals all over the place for For months after 9 -11.
45:42
Um, you don't forget that kind of thing. I remember there was a one funeral on tv. They had funerals. There was a
45:48
Uh, there was a funeral for firemen And I remember during the funeral in the middle of the funeral this irish fireman because in new york city
45:54
The firemen traditionally are mostly irish And but he just starts, you know threatening osama bin laden in the middle of this funeral
46:03
And so and and no one turned off the cam no one thought it was inappropriate Everyone just like cheered for him basically and just I mean people were united.
46:11
They were angry um, everyone wanted to sign up I was depressed that I was 12 and I couldn't sign up friends who were older than me did and and um, one of them one of them
46:20
I knew in the church went went to uh, afghanistan And uh, it was he was viewed as a hero.
46:26
I mean he got so much respect for that I remember at the time he came back in his uniform and everyone was just shaking his hand
46:33
And you know, you see people join the military today and it's it's not the same like it's just not
46:38
Well, the people who are joining the military today have no memory of 9 11 No, but i'm saying like the way they're treated like like as conservatives even like, you know
46:48
Someone joins the military and conservatives are the ones that are saying. Hey, man I don't know if you want to do that, you know, did you get the jab?
46:55
Did you do you really want to work for those people like that? That's the crazy thing because back then it was both left and right
47:01
We're just like, you know, yeah, everyone go and yeah, so It's yeah, it's you you were
47:08
I think, you know grandchildren will ask one day. What was that like? they'll
47:13
It'll be like, you know when we were um asking the world war ii generation. What was it like? People are going to ask us.
47:19
What was it like before 9 11? It's like It's like an event of that magnitude I think in a way Yeah, well in the midst of the black pills
47:28
But there's yeah, there's everyone enjoy the black pills there's a few I mean the the the end of what
47:34
I tried to do at the end and I really prayed hard about this because I This is what made it so hard. I think was trying to Trying to figure out what like what blessings are there?
47:45
And so I thought of um philippians four um Philippians four six and seven, you know, it says be anxious for nothing
47:52
But in everything with prayer and supplication with thanksgiving Let your request be made known to god because I feel like it's impossible to think about this without feeling anxiety
48:00
Like because when you just start connecting everything and everything that you basically just laid out It's pretty anxiety and inducing.
48:07
Um, and so like biblically the response is supposed to be actually first thanksgiving so Even thinking about something like that, like what are blessings?
48:17
What can you what can we be thankful for? So three things that I You know, I guess kind of came to me one was um just the reminder of The reminder of depravity which can be a blessing because it can wake people up Our proximity to it
48:32
I think is somewhat important because like you said people are very cynical about this now. Um, you know, and if especially if you live really far away from it, you know, we
48:42
We experienced this in a in a In a way that it was in our face every single day with people like we would hear people talking about yeah
48:50
I was in the south tower you know and I was on this floor and we managed to get out in time and my best friend's father actually, um, he really
48:59
His testimony like how he came to a serious faith in christ was through his experiences there.
49:05
He was a police officer. Um, but Uh, but you know, so that was one blessing was just people did wake up But the one thing one thing that really like jumped out at me when
49:14
I was thinking about this Um, and I mentioned the titanic so my wife and I went to um a titanic museum in pigeon forage here in tennessee
49:23
And it's extremely well done. It's it's it's uh, one of the like it's weird that a titanic museum is in the middle of tennessee in the smoky mountains, but That's where it is.
49:32
And it's a you know, it's very very well done. And one of the things that hits you with the titanic is Like what was the point of this?
49:39
You know, you have all this you have um I want to I think it's close to 2 000 people died and Just because you know, they just ship hit an iceberg like but when you start digging into these individual stories
49:52
You know, it's it's not just interesting it's like it's very inspiring because the the christian ethic of the time during the titanic was um
50:01
And the movie actually I had never seen the movie. I watched it recently the movie is extraordinarily inaccurate
50:06
The rule almost was that It was a pretty gentlemanly affair like women children got on boats as much as possible and so many men just Resigned themselves that they were going to die fairly immediately and behaved like men the entire time and died like men and even if the even if the event regardless of what caused the event that is a profoundly
50:30
Good thing like that's a profoundly biblical um Precedent to face death, which is the you know
50:39
The most fearful of all things and to be able to face it and look straight in the eyes
50:45
And do the right thing like in the midst of it and you know act act in a christian way and the one thing with 9 11 and the parallel there is um
50:56
Like so many people just rushed right into the jaws of death thousands like over 400 firefighters died
51:04
At 9 11, you know, I mean there's there's a bunch of famous pictures there's one picture taken from the george washington bridge where there's a um
51:13
There's a fire truck that's headed inbound to manhattan and every guy on that truck died and they they got there just in time to run in and die, you know and like this is gonna be this might sound like a ridiculous stretch, but um
51:28
The whole discussion of like who are my people and like Nations and like as an as somebody from new york when
51:35
I hear those stories i'm like man, those are my people I love those people like I love those new york italian irish, you know
51:43
Like I I feel like I understand them. I get them. I love them. I want them to know christ um,
51:51
I don't live there now, but like I could see myself going back as a missionary one day just because I have like those are the people
51:56
I grew up around and 9 11 is like the principal event where the The wonderful qualities about that culture were just on full display
52:06
And like it's it's it's ridiculously inspiring, you know, so I don't know if that's a positive thing like it's heartbreaking.
52:12
It's awful. It's horrific but um, there was a lot of like Incredible heroism and bravery and like those stories should be told like that is a christian thing.
52:22
That is a uniquely christian Virtue to share these stories and like hold these guys up as hey, you want to know what a man is?
52:30
That's a man and it's something that is just like Every year we go through this every year.
52:35
We have this Remembrance, you know, they read all the names and everything and like at the even evangelical church in general is like they don't do that like they don't they're not pointing to these guys who you know stared death in the eye and Drank it down like water you know, it's like We we look at mlk as our guy or it's like here's your hero.
52:57
Like this is what biblical sacrifice looks like And I don't know 9 -11 is a really good excuse to do that to look at that so there's that and then the other thing
53:05
I mentioned at the end was just Even though um, and you you just mentioned it like a lot of people
53:11
Blocked into church and then you know church attendance rates did not go up they they've gone, you know down pretty dramatically since 9 -11, but Um, you know being close to it
53:23
I'm, you know, I think we both know a number of people who Came to christ and i've heard plenty of testimonies of people who came to christ because of their experiences that day
53:31
So god was at work. He did draw people. Um to himself through that event, which which regardless of Whatever the politics whatever the situation around it like he was still at work even in that even in that darkness.
53:45
So Yeah, that's pretty much it was. Yeah, I do. I think that uh It is a little bit like our world war one, you know the way that world war one influenced the british psyche
53:56
We didn't get there and we basically got there in time to win the war and then of course world war ii
54:03
I think damaged our psyche to some extent, but we also um, I don't know we there was an optimism in the 50s right afterward that uh, that we were
54:13
The world was on a track for more freedom that that was inevitable and all and you know today today we know this is this classical liberal kind of post -war world war ii consensus talk, but um with 9 11
54:26
I do think that it parallels in some ways the like the what happened to the american psyche in general uh
54:34
Is kind of like what happened to the british psyche during world war one. There was like this rah -rah
54:40
At the beginning of world war one. I mean people the british people couldn't wait to get over there and get involved
54:46
And by the end of the war when they had seen the devastation and sacrifice It changed them and one of the changes was this kind of uh, maybe this ties into the first article this kind of feeling that you know
54:59
Is god really? I guess there was an optimism that they felt an expectation that they felt god was
55:05
Going to just always give them victory or something and and when it didn't when victory didn't even feel like victory
55:12
Uh, there was a question of you know, how can god let these bad things happen? and so yeah 9 11 is a smaller event, obviously, but I think because of media and because um
55:23
I guess just because it's so out of the ordinary in the modern world, I guess Now we have all these shootings.
55:30
So maybe maybe it's becoming more normal to see that but At the time we didn't have that. I mean it was just out of nowhere um
55:38
I I think that the kids the people who are our age watching that they're the ones who are deconstructing now many of them
55:45
And uh, is that connected probably to some extent? Yeah, maybe maybe um anyway, uh
55:53
Someone says that these guys see don't seem like proto new yorkers to me. Yeah, that's a
55:59
Well, we're not I mean like we're we're pretty mixed up, you know parents from california
56:05
Family in ohio and mississippi and you're you weren't even born in new york. I just made it by a couple of months so I mean that's that's kind of the that's kind of the strange thing i've had to you you went through this when you moved south and I moved south now and there's a weird like I don't know if we want to get into this but like the whole um fortify the red states like let's let's uh,
56:24
You know fortify the red areas everyone like, you know, get out of your blue area and get to a red area um, which
56:29
I i'm on board with to the extent that I did it but There you do start asking these questions of like who are my people who are like, what is my um
56:41
What what is my culture I guess as part of it like Because you'll be in situations where you don't feel like you fit in and the ironic thing and like 9 -11 brings this home for me is
56:50
I realize like I really do feel at home with Italian new yorkers and I married one.
56:55
So it makes sense. Yeah Yeah, I think that's like most people or a lot of people are in that position where they moved around a lot
57:02
And especially as broken families and going between parents and things. I mean people Pieces of themselves are everywhere.
57:09
It's it's it's it's really a tragedy of the modern world and um, there's
57:16
It's funny if you look at like, uh cultures You know, the scots irish tend to be very they're explorers no matter where they go in the english -speaking world
57:25
They end up being on the frontier somewhere doing some rugged thing. Like that's just kind of who they are and uh
57:32
And you know, you can see in new york, you know italians tend to they're so family oriented they stay together in fact, um you
57:40
When you go past like kingston, new york, you don't really see as many italians anymore You know, you'll see some in albany, but like they don't get out into those.
57:48
They're certainly not in western. New york um They they tend to stay together. That's why they gradually move places.
57:54
They're just a different culture um, and so, you know, there are cultures who are more nomadic who are like able to Move around and be okay with that and um kind of keep their cultural stuff their identity intact but I think in general though people are made to kind of They have a home, you know, even even the jewish people who have been
58:17
I mean that there's an example of a group of people Who have been all over the world who've been kicked out of so many countries and they've kept their identity
58:25
Part of the reason for it is because they have a homeland even if they're not in it It's it's they know where it is.
58:31
They know it's in israel They know that they have a place to go and that's that's what happens when jewish people go to israel who have never even been
58:38
There they feel like they've come home that that there's there's a place of belonging there. And so I think um
58:45
I think that's the the challenging thing and not challenging but it's the When you're someone like uh myself and you who
58:52
I was born in california But I have a lot of family in mississippi and but i'm living in new york
58:58
There's you feel at home in all these different places and in different ways and um, it's
59:06
You know When I was in virginia, there was part of you know things I missed about new york but now that i'm in new york, there's a lot of things
59:12
I miss about virginia, so it's just uh, there's beautiful things all over the place that god's made and um
59:18
I think for for having a family probably the important thing is just to decide Okay, what kind of a legacy do
59:23
I want my kids to have what who? I you get you have a choice in this to some extent like who do you want them having a shared experience with as They're growing up and I think you made the decision that you wanted your daughter to be um
59:36
Around people who are going to reinforce the christian value system you grew up with And uh, yeah,
59:42
I mean and I want whatever kids I have to be pagans now no, I I probably won't stay here long term, but um
59:49
I respect people who do and I totally understand. I mean There's no way you're getting a good slice of pizza.
59:55
I don't think uh outside of new york Haven't had one yet Or a deli a good deli which
01:00:03
I have They have delis here in tennis i'm gonna offend whoever the tennesseans are but uh, this was actually a this was a culture shock for me because a deli people is
01:00:15
A sandwich shop, but it's more than a sandwich shop. They also will they should have some salads sitting out like in the cooler um, you know like anti pasta salad and um, you know coleslaw stuffed grape leaves if maybe um so that's like not just like macaroni salad and potato salad more than that, but then also the meats like There should be at a minimum like salami pastrami
01:00:41
And they have these things they call delis here and there's only three sandwiches It's a ham sandwich a turkey sandwich or a bologna sandwich and that's it
01:00:47
And like you walk in and I don't know that's that's been probably the biggest culture shock for me that's better than virginia
01:00:53
We didn't really have delis there. It was there was like this one bagel shop. Everyone raved about that was terrible in lynchburg it was terrible like, you know, it was
01:01:04
It's just And you don't want to offend the people who tell you about it, you know Oh, this is great pizza place this bagel shop, but they did have better barbecue like new york cannot do barbecue
01:01:14
That's why I had to start smoking meat myself. That's that's actually what motivated me And now the barbecue in new york is actually better than the barbecue in east tennessee.
01:01:21
I'm gonna offend people again, but what? yeah, there's a couple really good spots and then in uh, um, like handsome devil and newberg and um
01:01:30
Uh, I don't think i've been to that one. Well, that's where the good barbecue is Okay, so one one restaurant in like a radius
01:01:39
Yeah, I haven't had a ton But there's a few decent places that are really uh, our our dad is the one that east tennessee's not really known for barbecue though No, but they have excellent smoked meat like slow cold smoked ham.
01:01:53
Yeah Like that virginia wasn't either that was it was virginia ham, right? But because it was you were in the south there was just more barbecue around from other, you know other influences
01:02:03
They're really good. I mean north carolina barbecue. The really good barbecue that I had was in south carolina.
01:02:08
And of course texas Texas Texas oklahoma arkansas also has that the beef mesquite.
01:02:16
I don't know how we're on this topic. But anyway, i'm getting hungry Um, I should have said this at the beginning and I didn't say it
01:02:21
So now only you know, the three people left listening are gonna hear it but that's not true we have we have more than three, uh, but uh
01:02:29
I I should have just let everyone know that the retreat that's coming up. David's gonna be there.
01:02:34
I'm gonna be there It's actually Is it next week I think it's next week next week. Yeah, it's next thursday friday saturday, um so It's this is the last opportunity like this is the last opportunity to sign up You gotta sign up if you've been on the fence and you've been saying
01:02:50
I don't know if I want to sign up Uh, let me wait. You're you can't wait anymore. I literally tonight
01:02:57
Yeah, well, it's basically yeah I mean if you want to try to see if it's still up tomorrow then you can try to see but It's coming down soon because I gotta
01:03:07
Email, uh the camp and give them our head count. So anyway, uh Overcoming evil conference .com
01:03:13
overcoming evil conference .com. It's a men's conference, uh coming up september 21st through 24th
01:03:20
Be there And uh, we'll see both of us. We'll see you there. God bless. Have a good night everyone