Three Pastors With Different Perspectives on Voting for Trump

We have three guests with us who have been on the podcast actually numerous times. We have

Pastor Kerry Gordon, who is the pastor at Cornerstone World Outreach in Sioux City, Iowa. We have Pastor Andrew Iskar, who is at 4th

Street Evangelical Church in Waseca, Minnesota. And then we have Pastor Joel Webbin, who's in Georgetown, Texas at Covenant Bible Church.

And all three of these men, love the Lord, they pastor, which they are deserving of honor for that.

Because let me tell you today, pastoring, pastoring is difficult and it's hard to find pastors.

And they're willing to do it. They have the courage. But the thing that makes them different, one of the things, I'm sure there's others.

They all have different perspectives when it comes to Donald Trump and the election.

And now that Trump is the presumptive nominee, I thought it'd be really good to get their perspectives for you out there, determining how you're going to vote.

And not just for Trump, but also for down ticket people. Maybe the county seat is open and you have a

Democrat running who wants to transfer kids and you have a Republican who's immoral. What do you do? So we're going to get into that a little bit.

Welcome gentlemen. Thank you so much. Thanks, John. We're going to start with Pastor Kerry Gordon, if that's okay.

And, you know, Pastor Gordon, I know that you did not care for Trump in 2016.

And maybe if you could explain what you're going to do this time around, whether you're voting for Trump or not, and then why.

Sure. Well, the first thing that I would say is the way that I approach politics, you know, on any average ballot where I live, there's 48 different people for 48 different offices that are on the table asking me to select someone for leadership from the top to the bottom.

And I don't make my decisions based on who I like or who I don't like.

And it's easy to characterize it that way. But the truth is, I'm a staunch, mean

Pharisee. That's what I get called. Because I follow the Bible very, very thoughtfully.

I didn't always do that. I used to vote using something called situational ethics, which is pretty complex to explain and understand.

But I came to the conviction that I was doing wrong. I meant well.

I didn't want to displease God in any way. I thought it was perfectly fine. And most of the church teaches, in fact, that we should use situational ethics.

I came to a point in my convictions where I was convicted that it was a sin. And I asked

God to forgive me. And the last time that I did it, I voted for John McCain. And I didn't like John McCain, but I still voted for him.

And the reason I did that was not because I had a solidly unwavering biblical standard, but it was because I knew he was the lesser of two evils, or at least

I assumed he was. And I voted for John McCain, and I felt terrible about it.

In fact, that night, I didn't sleep well. And I studied the scriptures very, very heavily over the next several months.

And I had a series of epiphanies that changed my life forever in the arena of politics. So I don't characterize who

I do or don't vote for based on liking. For example, I actually care about Donald Trump.

I find him, at times, very funny. And he's certainly the most entertaining person that's ever run for president.

So to suggest I just don't like him, and that's why I won't vote for him, I think would be a misnomer and mislead people.

I vote for people. The simplest, fastest way to explain it,

I would break out the Ten Commandments and go to the second table of the law. It's much more sophisticated, but that would take half an hour.

So Exodus 18 .21 is a truncated, very quick way of understanding what we're authorized and transversely what we're not authorized to do when it comes to selecting leaders within, especially, a republic.

And Jethro said to Moses in Exodus 18 .21, essentially, Moses, you can't do all this by yourself.

You've got to get help. So here's what you need to do. Search out from among the people someone, number one, who fears our

God. And I say our God because it's implied. Jethro was a monotheistic high priest of Midian, and his religion was basically expressing the theological views of Noah, his great, great, great, great grandfather, based on the best research that we have.

And by the way, I was just in Midian last week, and I stood at Jethro's tomb. So I've traveled there.

He's a pretty astounding figure of history. Jethro said, let's get people who fear our

God. Number one, they have to fear God. Now, you can have a lot of in -depth research about what kind of a man fears

God and what kind of a man doesn't. It's actually not that hard to determine if someone fears

God. So they have to fear God. Number two, they need to be able to do the job for which you're choosing them.

I make the argument that Exodus 18 .21 should apply to even the guy flipping burgers at McDonald's because, you know, you might say, well, he doesn't have to fear

God to be a good cook, and that's probably true. But the second tenet, he has to be able to do the job.

I don't want somebody cooking my food that's not a good cook. So they need to fear God, and they'd be able to do the job.

The third is they need to not be given to a filthy lucre, or be a money monger, or someone who could potentially be bribed, or would be motivated by the reward of finances in some way, whether it was an illegal bribe or not.

And one of the words that's used in some translations is they're not to be covetous. So fears

God, able to do the job, is not given to covetousness concerning money. And then finally, is known and has a reputation of being a truth speaker, someone who tells the truth.

And this is essentially what Jethro gave as advice to Moses launching the first republic, which according to Deuteronomy chapter 4 was to set an example for all the nations of the world that they would emulate and copy them.

And God says that very plainly in Deuteronomy 4. So, you know, I think

I need to say that because it's so popular to say, well, that was just for if, right? No, it wasn't.

It was for all of us. It's wisdom. And so that's how

I choose candidates. Now, occasionally someone who meets the Exodus 18 -24 qualifications, those four minimum plumb line issues,

I actually don't like them, right? So that's happened locally. There's someone I know them.

I know them and I don't like them. I don't like their attitude. I don't really care for where they go to church because it's a user -friendly church and I don't think they faithfully preach the gospel, et cetera, et cetera.

But they meet these minimum qualifications. And so I feel like, you know, it would be better for me to vote for them, even though I don't personally like them, than to vote for this horrible

Democrat. Right? So I want to say that up front. I try very hard to go by the standard of the

Bible, whether I like them or not. And just because I don't vote for someone doesn't mean

I hate them. And I think I have to say that too. It is true. I've never voted for Donald Trump.

But it's not really based on liking. It's based on a conviction that I did the wrong thing when

I voted for Don McCain. I felt terrible about it. I use situational ethics. I didn't have the understanding that I have now about how

God's law should be applied to something as important as voting. So what do

I do? Well, there's 48 people running for office on an average ballot where I live.

And if I study all these different offices and I look at the people that are running, I try to find a grouping of people who meet those minimum plumb line qualifications.

And once I find them, like, for example, in this previous presidential election, I was able early on to narrow the field of the men running for the

Republican ticket to four people. And then so now these guys meet minimum qualifications where I can feel like I'm obeying the

Bible if I vote for them. Now my next step is which one of these four is going to do the greatest good.

That's a whole different paradigm than choosing lesser evils. And it doesn't seem pragmatic.

And I understand that. And that's why I created, and I would encourage everyone to give me a hearing.

I created, I think, one of the clearest articulations of this view of how to obey

God when you vote in a way that's not tribalistic and quintessentially just American, but really an ancient principle.

And I did it at steps to political epiphany dot com. And it's five whiteboarding cartoons where I walk you through the

Ten Commandments and through the scriptures to create a way of being very engaged in the political world, representing as an ambassador of the

Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ in this world, what we believe and what we expect. If you're going to represent me and I am in affinity with the

Lord Jesus Christ, there are certain minimum standards that you have to meet. And Exodus 1821 is not a call to perfection.

It's a fallacy. Moses had to find leaders among that rabble of Israel. Most of them were married to their sisters.

These were horrible people. They were stiff necked people. God ended up killing all of them, by the way, because they would not comply.

But Moses had to get this really imperfect group of people and find someone that could at least be trusted with some power and death row by the inspiration of the

Holy Spirit told him how to do it. So here we are in 2024 and we're in a similar situation.

We have a lot of horribly imperfect people and we have to have a minimum standard or else our opinion becomes the standard.

And to me, that's humanism and it's very, very dangerous. And I would argue and I could give you the quotes if I dug them out.

Most of our founding fathers warned us not to disobey Exodus 1821.

I have quotes from Benjamin Franklin, who didn't even believe in Jesus deity, but he at least saw the wisdom of Exodus 1821.

And Noah Webster, Brian Webster's dictionary, the father of the

American education system. These people all warned us explicitly if America ever stops obeying

Exodus 1821, we're toast. And I've got their quotes and I think they were pretty brilliant guys.

They understood our republic. They helped create it and they warned us to follow that.

So I would say in a fast summary, what happened to America? I can tell you what happened to America is we abandoned strict obedience to Exodus 1821.

We chucked it out the window of pragmatism and we started justifying subtle disobediences to what we are or are not authorized to do when we vote.

And that's how we destroyed the country. So my argument is, if we're going to fix it, if there's any path to returning to the former greatness we used to be and used to have at maximum liberty, then we have to start by obeying the thing that we refused to obey for the last 50 years.

And so I'm just one of those crazy lunatics that's willing to obey that. And will it be painful? Does it mean we'll lose elections?

Yes, we will lose elections if Christians say, I will only obey the

Bible and forget the consequences. I'm doing the right thing, even if it hurts. That's what

I think we have to do. That's my conviction. I fully understand everyone else approaching it differently because I used to do that.

And so I actually give my personal testimony at steps to political epiphany and I pick on myself and say,

I was ignorant and I committed sin. And here's how I did it.

Here's what I did. This is why I repented. And then I invite everyone else to join me on that journey to repent for doing voting wrong.

So yeah, that's what I stand for in a nutshell. It's not about who I like. It's about I just want to obey the scriptures as best as I can and please the

Lord. Very, very well stated. And so you're just saying you don't like Trump. So I got it. No, I'm just kidding.

You know, it was very, very good. And so I think it goes without saying you didn't say this in what you said,

Pastor Kerry, but Trump doesn't meet the Exodus 1821 in your mind.

So, OK, I think I think people picked up on that. So, Joel, I want to go to you next because you in 2016 didn't want

Trump. I don't know if you I think you said you didn't even vote for him in the general, but in 2020 you did. So maybe explain whether he changed, you changed, the country changed.

You know, what persuaded you that that was the right thing in 2020 when it wasn't in 2016?

Yeah, well, I mean, part of it is, you know, grown and developed in my views.

So I certainly would concede that I have changed. But in addition to that,

I would just say, you know, the simplest explanation is in 2016, you know, just to be clear, I didn't vote for Hillary.

I'm a Christian, so, you know, but I voted. I threw my vote away.

I had, you know, I could throw basically I had two choices. I could throw my vote away by voting third party or I could throw my vote away by voting

Trump. But from the state of California, which is where I was living at the time, just like the six million thrown away votes for Trump in 2020 that came from California.

Whereas if we had like 48 ,000 of them respectively spread out between, you know, four different states that were contested, he would have won the

Electoral College and the world would be a different place. So anyways, my point is that I, you know,

I was ignorant with a lot of my views. But then also just, you know, where I was, you know, living in California and the situation of so I just wasn't thinking about these things.

So I definitely have changed. But then also in terms of Trump, I don't know, you know, if he changed.

I think he did. But it's more so it's not so much like he was one way and now he's another.

It was more so just, you know, him actually being in office gave, you know, evidence to some of his claims to be able to say,

OK, like now I've actually seen what he would do. And for the record, I think

Trump's, you know, his fourth year in office, I'm not a fan. I think, you know, we have to remind ourselves, you know, what actually happened.

As much as, you know, as Christians, we don't want to abide in an office. You know,

I think we still have to admit that, like, all right, forced vaccines and those kinds of things. Yeah, that's that's true. But Operation Warp Speed was that was

Trump. He still has, you know, Trump doesn't you know, he just never admits that he's wrong, you know, so, you know, so he still touts the vaccine as though it was, you know, his doing and a great idea, you know, and he's shooting himself in the foot with a lot of his base with that.

And then, you know, DeSantis comes on the scene and Trump, you know, he behaves like Trump.

So, you know, naturally he, you know, Ron DeSanctimonious and starts, you know, running to the left, you know, of Ron on abortion and on other issues, you know, and, you know, just just, you know, to because he has to get in his quips with, you know,

DeSantis. So anyway, so my point is his campaigning, I think, has been worse.

His campaigning this go around than it was back in 2015, his final year in office,

I thought was lousy. I'm a little bit sympathetic. I know there's a lot of pressure on a lot of people with COVID and all the propaganda coming out with that.

But still, I think he did poorly and he's never owned it and never been willing to walk it back and admit that that he, you know, that he set the groundwork for a lot of the tyranny that ended up happening with Biden in 2021, 22 and 23.

So anyways, all that being said, I would say I didn't vote for him in 2016 because I didn't I didn't believe him.

So it's not so much like he changed, although, again, I think he probably did. But I didn't believe him.

You know, as you know, my only knowledge of Trump at the time was that he's posed for pictures, you know, with Hugh Hefner, that he's a serial adulterer, that, you know,

Hollywood Entertainment, The Apprentice, you were fired. You know, I just didn't have any basis for thinking this guy is going to be a good president.

Again, definitely didn't vote for Hillary. I'm a Christian, let the record state. Christians don't vote for Hillary and they don't vote for Biden.

I feel, you know, I think that that is explicit, like you cannot vote for a Democrat today, maybe once upon a time, but today you can't vote for a

Democrat as a Christian. I just I see that as an absolute contradiction. So 2020, I voted for him, but I was still in California at the time.

I was one of the six million that, you know, took our vote. We needed forty eight thousand. We had six million.

But California, you know, the weather's nice. And so, you know, that's where I was.

And I did that thing. And I ended up writing a whole book about that, you know, for multiple reasons. You know,

Christians getting out of places like California, but political strategy being one of them. And then, yeah, he'll have my vote in 2024.

No question. No apology. Absolutely will vote for Trump. If DeSantis was, you know, the

Republican nominee, he'd have my vote and and that would be fine, too.

And I don't know, I've got a lot of thoughts. You know, part of it is lesser of two evils. But, you know, voting for Trump is my vote against Biden, against the

Democrats. And then part of it also is if there was a little, you know, if the ballot was for president, it was it was

Biden and Nancy Pelosi and Ron DeSantis and Trump and Nikki Haley.

And we had all these options. And then at the bottom, it said a literal wrecking ball. I would probably vote for the wrecking ball.

I would vote for, you know, or a backhoe, you know, or a flamethrower, you know, a flamethrower would for sure have my vote.

You know, anything that would I just think that America is so compromised, so rebellious.

Democracy. Every example in the scripture of democracy is negative, right?

We want a king. The people want a king or, you know, like crucify him. You know, what do the people want?

Let's take a vote. Well, let's let's kill Jesus. That's the vote. So I think, you know, our our republic and our constitution, as it's been said, you know, by our founders and many times repeated, it's it's fit for a particular type of people that we don't possess.

We possess a nation of degenerates. That's just that's where we are. We are we are a pathetic nation.

And we're a pathetic nation, not just because of our leaders. We have pathetic leaders because we're pathetic people. And we just have to admit that we are degenerates.

And and so. So, yeah, so the Constitution, it's not it's not that I'm against the

Constitution. I like, you know, a little bit more of authorial intent on the First Amendment, that it's not, you know,

Satan statues in the Iowa State Capitol, you know, but but it's common religions, you know, of multiple denominations of our common

Lord. Right. So you can have different expressions of Christianity, Anglican Anglicanism, Episcopalianism, Presbyterian.

But I don't think that the founders were saying, yeah, multiculturalism, culture, you know, cultists, the

Latin word worship, multiple different expressions of worship of false gods is a great idea.

Diversity is our strength. No, it's not. No, it's not. Diversity has destroyed the nation. And so I would just say that the

Constitution is great. And maybe one day, maybe one day we'll deserve a republic again.

Maybe one day we'll be able to be a constitutional representative republic with a light expression of democracy, which was the original intent.

Never a raw democracy. But right now it doesn't work because the people, the people are lousy.

And and so I would like to see, by God's grace, us get back on track. And I think returning to the 1990s won't happen.

I don't think that'll cut it. And so, yeah, so I'm going to, you know, whatever guy is going to kill less babies, whatever guy is going to chop off less genitals of children, whatever guy is, you know, going to do those things, you know, and also function as a wrecking ball in some extent, maybe, you know, change the political landscape.

And then the last thing is, honestly, I want to be careful on how

I say this. I think abortion is, you know, has been for decades the number one issue.

And I think that's right. I think that the scripture absolutely supports that. I'm an abolitionist.

I think, you know, incrementalism in theory, sure, but in practice, every politician

I've talked to and as I've witnessed it, all that ends up happening is they just split the penny a million times.

There's actually no, there's no desire when you really get down to it. There's no desire to actually abolish abortion.

And just to be abundantly clear, when I say abolish abortion, I think that what that essentially means, because a lot of guys, you know, they're not always clear about what that means.

What that means is essentially what it means is equal protection. It can't mean anything less than equal protection and equal protection.

That what I always tell guys, it's a really simple formula because you want to punish women or you want to execute women or no,

I want to save babies. And I think a nation can do one of two things. You can, you can save babies or you can worship women, but you can't do both.

We've opted for decades for worshiping women. We are given into the divine feminine.

We are, we, yeah, we, we hate men. We hate children. We hate babies because we, we don't love women.

We worship women. We idolize them. And so we have to stop doing that. And so in order to, the formula is three steps.

If we believe that life begins at conception, a full life, that, you know, that Jesus was fully

God and fully man in the womb. I mean, it messes up your, your doctrine of the hypostatic union, the two natures of Christ, the

Trinity. You have to believe that Jesus was fully God and fully man, not from the moment of birth, but from the moment of conception.

So if Jesus was fully human and, and image bearers of the living God are fully human in the womb from the point of conception, then they have equal dignity and equal value equal worth to the person who is already born.

If they have equal dignity, then they deserve equal protection. You can't have purge open season, you know, on a particular class of people.

You can go in one day, one day a week, you can shoot black people. No, you can't.

You can't, you can't do that. And then say, and black people are equal. No, it's one or the other.

So right now we have impunity for the murder of a particular class of people. It's not black people.

It's not minorities. It's not women. It's the unborn. So to have, to actually back up our claim as Christians, that it's a full life, full image bearer of the living

God, full dignity, then you have to have the equal full protection and the equal protection.

Well, what is that protection? The protection is the penalty for harming or killing that baby.

So if a mother, if a mother can, you know, take her five -year -old child into the back alley and, and shoot him in the head, whatever, whatever the penalty would be for that, that same penalty has to be in place, not only for the abortion doctor, but also for the mother.

And if the mother was coerced by a father or a man or a husband, of course for him, him as well.

And if she was coerced beyond her will, then she's actually innocent. And it's the father that's guilty, but he gets this, it's the penalty for murder.

So all that being said, my point is, you know, with abolition, those kinds of things, my point is just to say that incrementalism and pragmatism,

I hear what Corey's saying. I think that what he's saying is wise. It's solid.

I just, I'm at the point, I am at the point where I, I think, you know, all these things matter.

Abortion, I said all that to give my credentials that I do believe abortion is one of the single most important issues.

But diversity is quickly becoming, to me, up there. I'm not saying necessarily equal, but if we, we have to believe that the

West is suicidal. The superpower of the world, turns out, all you had to do to beat them was call them racist.

And the final analysis, that's what it took. It didn't take an army of millions of people. It didn't take certain nuclear weapons.

It didn't take all, you know, it wasn't the communists, you know what I mean? It kind of was, you know, but the point is, you know, but the point is like in the final analysis, what did it take to destroy the

West? You just needed to call them a mean name. And so that would be one more reason why

I would vote for Trump is we have to, we have to be allowed to have a country.

And there's no such thing as a country without borders. God sets nations. He causes them to rise and fall.

He sets their times. He sets their borders. We've have 10 million immigrants, about two thirds of them illegal, a third of them legal.

And that's just what we've counted. That's just what we know. It could be far more than that. And I'm talking about the last three years.

That's, so you're talking about 3 % of the country's total population. So you're saying within a decade, at that rate, you, especially with all the numbers, you know, people who pass through that we don't even have record of, you're talking over 10%, which means in 100 years, at that rate, and we know it would increase unless we do something, you know, significant to stop it.

You're talking about over the current population coming in, you know, and most of that illegal, most of that unaccounted for, even those who are legal, still doesn't necessarily mean that they should be here.

And so, yeah, so for me, I think, you know, I want, I want to have a country.

I want my children to not be murdered by an illegal immigrant in a park.

I want a wall. I want a country. And I'm not going to commit suicide.

I'm just, I'm not going to do it. It doesn't matter what name you call me or what revisionist history propaganda you try to pull.

I think the West is awesome. I'm proud of my heritage. I'm proud to be an

American. I would like America to continue. Trump, his character is not great.

I would not, I would not hire Trump to babysit my kids. He would not be an elder in my church.

I don't even know if he could pass a membership interview. He might, in the sense that man looks at the outward appearance,

God alone sees the heart. My job is not to definitively know whether or not he's regenerate. If he had, you know, a credible profession of faith and, you know, some measure of tangible fruit, then, you know, then maybe he could be a member.

But my point is just to say, um, Trump is not, you know, my, my position is not that Trump is, um, this great guy.

Um, but I don't know, this sounds, Corey won't like that, but I don't know if we need a great guy right now.

I think we need, uh, an iron fist. We need someone to deport every single illegal immigrant out of the country.

We need someone to, um, burn down the regime. Uh, we,

I just don't think Americans know what time it is. I don't think Christians, I'll be frank. I don't think evangelicals understand what time it is.

I think, um, they think that there's still a lot, uh, a lot to be salvaged. They don't, they don't think it's as bad as it actually is.

They think democracy, what if we try democracy even harder, you know, what, what have we even harder?

So anyways, those are my thoughts. Yeah, no, thanks Joel. No, that's good. Um, with today's positive, encouraging word on conversations that matter, uh, everything's bad.

Uh, well, so we were actually almost half an hour in, um, and I do want to do some time for questions.

So we're not even going to talk to Andrew. No, I'm just kidding. Uh, maybe you could give the encouraging word since you're so, uh, you know,

Trump, you voted for him in the primary in 2016. So I got to hear this. Yeah.

Um, I think, I mean, even going back to 2008, you know,

Kerry brought up, uh, the 2008 election with, with John McCain. I didn't vote for him.

Uh, John McCain, that is in, in 2008. Uh, I, I kind of came to the, you know, similar convictions as Kerry at that point.

And, and I knew that, you know, the American, I mean, I, I probably was as blackpilled on America, the

American Republic and democracy as Joel is, you know, just expressed, uh, just now back in 2008.

And I realized, okay, there's this, this extremely powerful regime that runs the country.

It is, they're, they're looting everything that isn't, you know, bolted down. And, um, and, and so I knew like, you know,

John McCain, yeah, he doesn't pass that, you know, Exodus 18, uh, threshold, right.

Is a covetous man, is, is a man that his entire career was, was looting our country, you know, taking, taking bribes, you know, even if they weren't explicitly like handing over cash, right.

He's clearly reaping benefits from, from the destruction of our country, uh, opening the borders.

I mean, that's, he was a Senator from Arizona for decades. And that the one issue

Arizonans cared about was immigration and he did everything he could to sabotage, um, that, that effort.

Um, and so I knew he was bad. I knew he was terrible. I felt the same way in 2012 with Mitt Romney.

It was the same, you know, the same exact thing. And so in, in 2015, I was,

I was more or less content to just like never vote for president again. Um, and, and then, you know, a funny thing happened where I, I saw a political candidate who, yeah, as Joel described, you know,

Joel's like, if you have this whole list and I'm voting for this giant meteor of death or, uh, a wrecking ball or a flamethrower or whatever.

Well, I saw that in 2015 that here is, here is a guy who, uh, is going to upset the entire system and, and, and not necessarily,

I didn't, I didn't have any illusions about, okay, if he gets in office, he's going to positively be able to do anything because I knew the, the entire system is going to sabotage every single thing he ever does.

Right. So it's, it's more about the system destroying itself than it is any, anything the guy himself does.

I knew that in 2015, like I saw, um, you know, his statements about immigration, it was, it was astounding to me because it was the first time, you know, a major candidate actually, uh, vocalized something that was clearly within the interest of the actual

American people and not ginormous corporations or, or the, the regime itself.

So that was, that was huge. And then when he, when he said, I think it was like August of 2015, where he's talking about like, why are we in NATO?

We should get out of NATO. This is not benefiting us at all. And the freak out over that was so massive.

And it's because your war is the health of the state that the entire regime, that's what sustains it is, is, um, you know, being in Iraq or Afghanistan or Ukraine now is that that's, that's how these guys get rich.

Right. That's how, that's how this all happens. Uh, they, that's, this is what empowers the entire regime is it's foreign policy.

And so I saw someone who is so, you know, so distinct, so set apart, um, in, in all of these things that he could actually begin to bring about the downfall of, of this horrible regime that rules over us.

And, you know, on the, on the question of, of immigration, I think that is, that is the biggest one. I, I, I agree with Joel, uh, wholeheartedly on everything you said about abortion, uh, a hundred percent.

And I look at it and I think, um, none of those things are ever going to come to pass if we allow them to import, uh, you know, millions, uh, millions of people into, into our country.

And so, uh, it, it is, um, it is, it's really bad, right?

If you bring in like, like Joel said, you know, 10 % population change in the country.

And, and the point is you're, you're going to have people that are not, um, are not

American, right. And they're replacing the American people. Well, that's, that's by design. They don't, they, they want to replace the population.

Like Joel brings up his state of California. California was the most conservative state in America in the middle of the 20th century.

And now it is, it's, uh, the, maybe the worst one in the whole country.

And it was entirely because of, of population change. And so California is the model for what they want to do to the entire

United States. So any, any designs that we have for, you know, fixing our country and the most important thing, uh, is, is on the issue of abortion.

That's the thing that's bringing the wrath of God against us. Well, we're, we're never going to be able to do that if they, if they just completely replace the country.

And so, um, you know, Trump making that an issue, uh, for the first time in my lifetime was, was, you know, the thing that, that opened my eyes.

And I, I think I remember, you know, going back to like 2015, um, and I, I was generally supportive of Trump, even though I was like,

I don't think I'm going to vote for him. But I remember in, um, right, right before super Tuesday, you know, we're, we were in Missouri at the time.

I remember telling my wife, uh, the day before I just read a national review, um, the, a writer in national review,

Kevin, Kevin Williamson had said, uh, written this piece against Trump saying the white working class needs to die, uh, because those are the people that supported

Trump the most wholeheartedly. And I remember thinking like, wait, that's, that's where I'm from.

Those are, those are my people, right? This guy hates us. And because here's a guy representing our interests, um, we have to, we have to go vote for him.

And so we went that day and went and voted for Trump in the primary in Missouri and he won handily, uh, as he did in all the other

States, uh, that, that voted that day. And it, I, I basically realized that, you know,

I, I, I started to have this view of politics, um, that was, you know, essentially, you know, recognizing it as you're not in necessarily idealistic terms where I kind of had been, um, where instead it was, it was, you know, you and your people versus existential threats, right?

Things that are going to threaten their very existence and, and viewing it in those terms, right?

That, that started to change things. I started to see, all right, politics is not just, you know,

Oh, I want, I want this ideal guy. And if I don't get him, I'm not, I'm, I'm just going to stay out of it.

It's all right. We have enemies that want to destroy us. They want to, you know, to murder babies. They want to trans kids.

They want to, um, completely overturn our country. They want to import, you know, tens of millions of people from, from anywhere else that they can rule over more easily.

Um, we, we have to pursue things to stop this and pursue who and empower whoever will, will get that job done.

And so that, that drove things more than anything else. I, yeah, I never, never for one second, you know, viewed

Trump as, as this, uh, moral man or, or, or good man, or, or even, you know, necessarily anyone that would, would pass, you know, what, uh, what, what

Jethro tells Moses in Exodus 18. Um, and instead I viewed him as, as a tool, as a weapon, uh, to fight against, um, my enemies.

Uh, and, and so like thinking about the, you know, the Exodus 18, um, you know, provision or, or, or litmus test, uh, you know,

I look at it even, even in the 2024 election, you know, there's a, uh, Senator Tim Scott was running for president this time around.

And, and this guy's evangelical Christian. Um, I don't, I don't have any reason necessarily to think that he's been taking bribes.

At least there's nothing on record. Um, yet I look at a guy like that, like, you know, on paper probably passes

Exodus 18, but if, if he won the presidential nomination, won the presidency, right.

All he would do is empower the regime further. Like he's, you know, a hundred percent behind everything in Ukraine and, uh, he's, he's their guy.

And so it's, it's very easy for the regime to put forward guys that, that appear to be good, wholesome

Christian men, but then they empower all of the evil that's all around us.

Um, and, and so I look at it at that, in those terms, and that's kind of the game they've played for decades within, within the

Republican side with the conservative side is guys that on paper look pretty good. Like George W.

Bush, this very conservative, even Christian guy. Uh, but in reality, um, what did he do?

He did horrible stuff, right? He did the Iraq war and he expanded the government, expanded the power of, of the regime that rules over us today.

So I, I, I, I became less idealistic and more, more practical, uh, not, not out of this, like godless pragmatism, but rather, right.

What is, what's going to defend my people and give us a chance to eventually restore things and make things better.

All right. All right. Well, thank, thank you, Pastor Isker. I would love to hear you guys, um, interact with each other.

I have like endless questions, but, uh, I think it would be better to hear what you have to say to each other.

So we could go in the same order again, if that works. And, you know, Pastor Kerry, I don't know if you have any questions or challenges for Joel or, or Andrew.

Well, I mean, the first thing is at some point in my life,

I've, I've wrestled with all of these things and made the same conclusions as both of them.

So I, I feel like I'm talking to myself, but the old me years ago.

So I have no hostility and I completely understand the frustration and trying to navigate it the mess.

I loved everything that Joel said, because full disclosure, what

I typically deal with is people that want to trot out Trump prophecies and beat me over the head that I'm opposing

God. And so it's refreshing to hear someone that really has a very, uh, solid grasp on reality.

And I, I have great respect, have just met Pastor Joel, and I think he and I would be very good friends.

He sees it just like I do. I think the difference between us, if I were just to take the summation of everything that he said, he articulated the life position perfectly beautifully.

It is personhood. That's the only way to please the Lord. And, um, like, for example, if you propose that we treat rape, which is a lesser crime, frankly, than killing a baby.

If we were to treat rape intellectually on par with how we treat abortion, we would be making an imbecilic argument that we should only allow rape between one and five on Saturdays.

And if you're going to rape a woman, you need to have proper rape training. And the facility that you rape her in needs to be very, very clean.

These are the exact same stupid arguments used to regulate abortion, the killing of children.

And if you, if you said it on a different crime, people would throw you out of the room and say, you've lost your ever loving mind.

But I would say through the working of Satan, most Christians have lost their ever loving mind on abortion and they're unwilling.

And Pastor Joel nailed it. It's the consequence. They're unwilling to bring a consequence.

And this is where I see, I would say, Pastor Joel is almost exactly where I landed on the political issues in Steps to Political Epiphany, because I became a personhood advocate before I came to the conclusion that I articulate in StepstoPoliticalEpiphany .com.

And that is this. I am not only willing to make sure that whether it's the doctor or the coercive partner or boyfriend or father or the woman, that there has to be consequences if there's a law.

Otherwise, you're just proposing suggestions and you can't run a nation on the twaddle of suggestions.

So in terms of personhood and abortion, there has to be a consequence. And I would then carry that same argument now over to the reprobate, ever unfaithful, backstabbing

Republican Party. If we're going to change the nation, we have to be willing to bring consequences to the party and ultimately to the people they represent, which, as you correctly said,

Pastor Joel, are reprobate. And so the punishment is, and this is what

I say to people who are just exasperated that I won't vote for their candidate in the general election.

I say, if you think that my vote was so important, why didn't you listen to me during the primary?

I'm willing to punish my fellow Republicans by advocating that we strictly obey

Exodus 1821 and let the bad guys win. We deserve it.

And frankly, most of the time they win anyway. So that's, I think, the one thing

I would say. I'm willing to punish the people with a massive election loss so they can get what they're clamoring for, which is

King Saul, because he's the taller guy. And then, you know, you voted for him. So the guys that vote for a

Hillary Clinton, for example, strangely don't get the blame for Hillary winning. It would be me because I didn't vote for Mitt Romney or whatever.

The reality is we elect horrible people because horrible people are voting. And at some point, you know, you tap out and say,

OK, the two choices, one of these two is going to win statistically.

I know that. They're both horrible. I just refuse to play your games anymore. I'm willing to punish you for not listening to me during the primary.

And I think I should probably say this because I get accused of being pietistic and unwilling to be engaged in the political arena.

I'm speaking to you from the standpoint of an unusual amount of influence that God has, for whatever reason, given me in Iowa.

And I have counseled privately 23 different men who ran for the United States presidency.

And in the most recent election, I counseled most of the men that were running for president and, you know, including

Governor DeSantis coming over for dinner at my house. And the reason for that is they want me to endorse them.

And so I don't endorse hardly ever. I've only endorsed one person in my life since I started getting involved in politics since 2004.

But they all want my endorsement because the one time I did endorse, they won against all odds.

And so I use that as an opportunity to speak truth to power.

And there was, you know, for three weeks, I was told that President Trump was coming to my house for dinner as well.

And so I say that because there are benefits to being a stodgy old

Pharisee that just won't bend any rules. And that is that sometimes you get a little respect from the political class, and they realize that if you voted for them and supported them, they would have earned something that was worth bragging about because you're really hard to please.

And I use that to be able to speak truth to power. And, you know, one of the things

I talked about Governor DeSantis is I said, can we please do better on abortion? What's the deal with personhood in Florida?

Why can't we have our, you know, the real issue dealt with? And let's bring consequences for people who kill babies.

And it was a really it was a very good conversation. So I think that's the one thing

I would say is probably the only difference between me and Joel. I agree with everything the man said, except I wish that he would be willing to punish the party and the people by saying, all right,

I'm not voting for your nasty choices. But I'll let you watch steps to political epiphany and see if I can swing you over to my side.

OK, that's that's a great point. I really appreciate that, Kerry. And I apologize. I think I called you Corey earlier.

I get called all kinds of things. Don't worry about it. So I appreciate that. That's a really good point.

You know, Dusty Devers is a friend. And, you know, I helped a little bit with the statement that he wrote on Christian nationalism.

Him and James Silberman were the primary authors, the statement on Christian nationalism and the gospel. And me and William Wolfe and some guys came in and did some revisions and signed.

And Dusty Devers is doing great work. And he is that statement. All of us were, you know, at least for the most part, at least me and Dusty and James and a couple others are in the you know, the camp of like a general equity, you know, theonomy, not maybe necessarily like to the

T, 100 percent reconstruction is rushed to me. But but certainly the confessional position, Westminster, which are general equity theonomy, the word of God.

Dusty very much, I think, shares your view and my conversations with him. That's part of why he ran for political office, is he was like, you you never give me a candidate that I can believe in.

So I guess I'm just going to have to do it myself, you know, and and his view and other guys, you know, who are close friends.

And and we have a lot, you know, we work together behind the scenes. We're on the same team. Dusty's coming to our conference this weekend.

Last minute, I roped him in, you know, going to get him in there. And so but but my point is, one of the you know, the things that challenged me with is very similar to what you said,

Kerry, is just saying evangelicals have not made the Republican, the

GOP actually earned their vote. What we have communicated by voting for the lesser of two evils, at least when it comes down to the general election, is we've said that adultery, no problem, you know, soft on abortion, we'll take it, you know, and like and so that is like your argument.

I have no disparaging remark on it. You're right. That's why this is would be my only counter.

And the disclaimer is I don't even know for sure if I'm right, but it's definitely what I'm committed to doing.

So I'm very much certain that I'm going to do this. I get it. But I'm open to not being right. Here's my counter. Part of my my one of the lion's share motivation in my voting is is love for neighbor.

And and I do not have an equal love for all my neighbors. I have an order of love, affections, natural affections.

Part of what I'm thinking is, on the one hand, saying, no, you must meet this exodus standard because it's the word of God.

Like that in the long run might be what restores the nation. You know, I think part of it is long term versus short term strategy.

You know, it's good. And I, you know, we're thinking like next four years, we're thinking long term, too.

You know, we're both post -millennial, but like but but we're very much thinking next four years where somebody else would say,

OK, well, it may get worse before it gets better. But holding the line to God's immutable standard is what ultimately will make the restoration later on.

For me, though, I'll just say, you know, be honest here. I have a six year old, a four year old, a three year old, a one year old.

And, you know, we just found out a fifth kid on the way. And so my point is

I'm in the throes of fatherhood in the little years. I've got I've got the tiny tots, you know, the pitter patter of the feet running around the house.

And and. Oh, one of them just unplugged the cable.

He was hearing the pitter patter come closer. Oh, Joe, you still there? So but one of the first neighbors that I'm thinking of is my wife and children.

And I'm thinking, you know, with my my three daughters, Olive and Ruth and Eleanor, I'm thinking.

If I had the power to vote for a guy who was shut down the border and I didn't on principle, and then this other guy kept it open.

And in 10 million more people came in, and that's conservative for the record. Again, there's a lot of numbers we haven't counted, and that's three years, not a four year term.

So so if I don't vote for Trump and we get one, you know, three more million this year, 2024, and then let's say we get it's entirely possible with the

Democrat platform in 2024 to 2028, an additional 15 million could be 20 million.

And I live in Texas. That's another thing to consider. And I have small girls and I'm their dad.

Did I love that? And I feel like the answer is no. And I could be wrong about that.

But like, I'm going to do whatever I can to make sure a stranger doesn't kill my daughter.

And I think it is that clear. I think that is very that's not hyperbole or that's ridiculous.

No, no, no, no, no. This is this is what's happening every day. We have an invade, a full fledged invasion of military aged men by the millions at our southern border.

I live in a border state. Life. And so so what am

I going to do? I'm going to do a bunch of things, not just look. I mean, I have guns. I have locks, extra locks on my doors, security system.

I you know, all these things. But one of them, I'm going to do all these things, not just one thing. But I think one of the things that I can do in addition to having a gun and and locking the home and getting security system and training my girls about stranger danger and all these different things,

I can also vote for Trump. Yeah, that's all he does is shut down the border. They could save the life of my family.

Makes sense. I hear you. You have anything you want to say, Pastor Andrew? Yeah, I mean,

I think, you know, some of it I'm very, very sympathetic to Kerry's argument because I've I've been there and it felt the same way.

I mean, I look at it, you know, if it's if it's the 1980s or 1990s where where Christians had far more political power and we squandered it in those days, if if all of our

Christian leaders at the very top, all the moral majority guys and things like that were totally uncompromising as they should have been, we could have things would have been a lot different than they are today if that had been the case.

But it wasn't. And now we're in a much more, honestly, totalitarian situation in America.

And so I look at it from the perspective of if if I were living in the

Soviet Union and for some reason they let us have elections, right.

And there was a guy on that was able to be voted for who would help hasten the demise of the

Soviet Union. I wouldn't I wouldn't stop and think, you know, is he a faithful, godly

Christian man? Does he meet the qualifications of Exodus 18? Does he do all of these things?

Which all things being equal, I 100 % agree with. If you're trying to devise a system and who should be ruling, whether it's a local

HOA or a city council and everything beyond that, you want to follow what

God says. But if it's a question of who can help bring this evil system down more quickly,

I look at it along those lines where that's what I'm after. That's what I was after in 2015.

I didn't I didn't view it as this restorationist guy who's going to save America, even though that's his campaign slogan, right?

Make America great again. And and and all of that. I never viewed it that way at all. I didn't I didn't think that that's

I don't think that's possible. Right. I don't think we can the toothpaste out of the tube and it's not going back in.

Right. It has to go down. And I view them along those lines when the you know, when the media freaks out about Trump, you know, being the end of democracy, democracy, our democracy is threatened and it's going to be destroyed and all of these things, you know, in one sense, it's histrionic and crazy and nuts.

But in another sense, right, the woke are more correct than the mainstream that that I think I think he is he is a threat to their system and they know it because it opens the door for people who are even better than him, that that will wield power more effectively and so forth.

And so I viewed along in those terms that we have we have this evil totalitarian system.

I mean, you just look at 2020, 2021, the things that happened, the things that that they did to us.

I mean, the the mandates, for instance, I mean, just totally evil what what took place and everything that's happened since.

And I think someone has to take it all down. That's that's what

I'm after. That's what I want. And so I'm I'm willing to to support a guy who, yeah,

I think is is personally not not a moral man at all. Not like like Joel says, it's not not someone that I mean,

I would I would have a hard time bringing him into membership in my church. Right. Just like like Joel says. But I'm I'm looking for that wrecking ball to destroy these things.

And and I have been since then. And honestly, I thought he did a pretty good job in his in his term in office in that in the sense that we look at look at what they had to do to dislodge him.

Right. I you know, people maybe will say you're being conspiratorial. But I think the the the pandemic, whether it's whether it's real or a leak or whatever, whatever your view is on that.

Right. They had to use that to dislodge him. They had to have a literal color revolution in America in 2020 with BLM in order to dislodge him from office.

They had to spy on his campaign. They'd accuse him of treason with the Russians, all the things that they did.

They had to have this, you know, absurd Third World Banana Republic election.

And that that's the system destroying itself. Right. It's delegitimizing itself because of him.

And if you if we had, you know, if we had a guy like Tim Scott or even Ron DeSantis, I don't think they would they would do the same things to to get rid of him.

It would be back to politics as usual. And we would be arguing about, you know, the marginal tax rates.

And what are we going to do about Social Security and all these kinds of things when now the whole thing has to come crashing down.

And the sooner it does, that'll be better for all of our neighbors, for our families.

And then we can finally get to, you know, rebuilding the country and Christians wielding power and and having godly men rule.

Right. That's that's so it's a it's a longer term play that I'm looking at.

And so it isn't it isn't even necessarily like I'm trying to practice this pragmatic realpolitik, but rather I want this this evil totalitarian system to be destroyed.

And then we can rebuild from from the ashes of it. Well, we have less than a minute before we've gone a whole hour.

So I want to try to land the plane here if I can. And I know I haven't asked any questions, but I'll just for people who are listening, maybe a thought to just consider you heard three different perspectives.

And I think in a way, Joel and Andrew are saying something similar, I think, about the current circumstances.

And they don't expect Trump to necessarily be a leader, but to be someone who just somewhat demolishes the present evil system as much as possible.

And and maybe if we were to have another hour, we could explore more what qualifications should we be looking at?

For example, Exodus 18, 21 through 22. Is that something that is a binding principle on us today that we're required as Christians to apply in the case of a presidential election?

Or is that a more is it a principle or a proverbial saying that in general is true that we should we should seek in certain circumstances and maybe not others?

We don't have time for it because we've gone over an hour, but that would be where I would love to maybe continue a discussion.

And you can continue in the comments. If you have opinions on that, put it in the YouTube comments. And you can also contact each of these gentlemen.

And I'll let you guys maybe because I already mentioned your churches, but maybe mention where you want people to follow you.

I know, Pastor Kerry, you gave me step stop political epiphany dot com.

Can people contact you for that? Steps to political epiphany dot com. Step stop.

Steps to. I think so. I mean, I bet that video series went viral six or seven years ago before Donald Trump ever announced he was running for office.

I didn't make that to go after Donald Trump. I was more prophetic about what's going to happen. And it went viral.

It was watched by tens of thousands of people in every state. And we watched it on Google Google Maps.

And it was pretty amazing. And I've had people contact me from all over America, literally for years.

They still do it and say this changed my life. I get it now. Someone finally explain this, how to be a

Christian and be involved in the wretched political system that we have. And I would just say this to what to your point,

John, because I get this a lot. People say, well, don't you think God can use Donald Trump? And I responded,

I said, absolutely. And he uses Satan and he used Hillary. He used

Obama. And all of these different wretched people, I think, are instruments of judgment against our country.

So what I like to say, and this is it rhymes, it's cheesy, but people can remember it because I want to deal with this idea that, you know, somehow

I am hindering what God's trying to do. I say who God can use and who

Kerry Gordon is authorized to choose should never be confused. So God may decide he wants to use the devil and he does.

He uses Satan sometimes to bring about his will. Unexpectedly, he did that at the cross.

Satan thought he won, but he was wrong. He was just being used. But that doesn't give me the authorization to scream release

Barabbas. Good, good word. So, all right. So steps to political epiphany .com

if you want to contact Pastor Kerry Gordon. Joel, where can people find you if they want to ask you questions or pick your brain?

Easiest thing is just to follow us on YouTube, subscribe to Right Response Ministries on YouTube.

Subscribe, click the bell, hit us up in the comments. I'm pretty responsive with that. Cool, cool.

And Pastor Andrew Isker? Yeah, I do a podcast with my friend

CJ Engel at Contra Mundum on YouTube. So yeah, subscribe there. You can contact us there or on Twitter.

And Gab, I write also for Gab News, so news .gab .com. And so yeah, you can contact me there.

My DMs on Twitter and Gab are both open. So I try to respond to those if I see them.

Perfect, perfect. Well, thank you each one of you for your time and just a wonderful discussion that I think will help a lot of Christians out there who are trying to make this decision.