Christology: Pre-existence and Eternality

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Well, good evening everyone.
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We are continuing tonight in our study of Systematic Theology, and we are starting our second set of studies.
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As we noted from the beginning, Systematic Theology, or we've actually labeled this an overview of Christian Theology and Doctrine, but really there's no way to say it other than it's a systematic approach to understanding God and the Scriptures, and how we understand the truths that are contained therein.
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And so we look at everything in categories, and we started out with Theology proper, that was the study of God and His nature and His person, and specifically that God the Father was the focus.
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Now we've moved on to Christology, which is the study of Jesus Christ.
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Later in the series we will go to Pneumatology, which is the study of the Holy Spirit.
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We'll go to Ecclesiology, the study of the Church.
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We'll look at Soteriology, which is the study of salvation.
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There will be several categories, and each category will take several months.
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Honestly, I could teach Systematic Theology the rest of my life, and we could always, I mean we could just continue, because by the time you get to the end, you'll forget what you learned in the beginning and just start over.
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This is one of my favorite subjects, because it just seems to yield so much material for us to learn and to go through.
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But I'm excited about this particular part, because I love Jesus Christ, and I get to talk about Jesus and focus on Him for the next several weeks.
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And it's vital to say from the outset that Christology is a lifetime study in and of itself.
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And so while we talked about Theology proper, we had to set some boundaries, because if we didn't set any boundaries, we would just continue on and on and on with the attributes of God and the nature of God and all those things.
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Sort of the same thing with Christology.
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If we don't set some boundaries from the outset and say, these are the things we're going to focus on, then it'll never end, and we would never be able to move on to another subject.
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So in keeping with our textbook, and if you don't remember, we started this series, I said we're going to try to stay as close as we can to our textbook, which is the Moody Handbook of Theology.
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It's a very good outline, and it's simple and easy to follow.
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I said this is what we're going to keep up with.
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So keeping with the Moody Handbook of Theology, we have our outline, and I put it on your worksheet tonight.
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The are the major points that we're going to look at on the subject of Christology.
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The first tonight will be preexistence and eternality.
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Then we'll move on, provided we get through tonight's lessons, to the understanding Christ as truly God and truly man.
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Now, we will never get through that in one lesson.
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Really, those could both individually be lessons, and then break those down even further, because that includes the incarnation, the humanity, the deity, and the hypostatic union.
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All of that is included in that truly God and truly man.
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But the great thing is, is this season lends itself to such a study.
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This season lends itself to the study of the incarnation and the nature of Christ, because we are in the Christmas season, and we're looking forward to celebrating the incarnation on December 25th.
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And so this study goes along with what's going on in our life right now.
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We're also going to look at the peccability versus the impeccability of Christ.
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That's actually an argument that we're not going to have an argument, but we're going to look at the argument regarding that and talk about what that even means.
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It's actually a very important question regarding the nature of who Christ is.
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We're going to look at his earthly life and ministry.
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We're going to look at his offices.
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And for those of you who are familiar with that study, that is looking at the threefold office of Christ, which is prophet, priest, and king.
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And then we're going to finish up this series, this section, with his present ministry, what is he doing now, and then his future work, what will come.
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And that may lead us into a little conversation on eschatology, which I'm allergic to, so I'll have to be careful on that one.
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But we are going to talk about some of that in that part of the study.
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So tonight we're going to look at the pre-existence and the eternality of Christ.
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In your notes, I've given you some blanks to fill in, and I think the first one is where we're at now, so I want to make sure.
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I should always keep myself a handout, just so that I have one.
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The pre-existence and eternality of Christ are inseparably linked to his deity.
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They are inseparably linked to his deity.
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Now what do I mean by that? Well, the Bible teaches that God is eternal.
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Yes? Have we already had that conversation? Have we already studied that the Bible says, from everlasting to everlasting, you are God.
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He identifies himself as the I Am, which means that he is non-contigent.
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He's not dependent upon anyone else.
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God is eternal.
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There was nothing before God.
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There will be no God after him.
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He is the only God, and he exists outside of time.
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So when we say Christ is eternal, we are saying that Christ is God, because he's the only one who is eternal.
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Right? To say it another way, if Christ is God, he must be eternal.
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So that's why I say these two things are tied together.
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When we talk about his pre-existence, we talk about his eternality, we can't separate that from his deity, because the two sort of are independent thoughts.
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If he's eternal, then he must be pre-existent.
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Now you say, well, okay, you're throwing around words.
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What are you trying to say? Let me explain what I mean.
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The word pre-existent is very important, because there are very, very few people who would deny that Jesus existed in the first century.
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Right? Jesus was born somewhere around 4 BC.
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We don't know exactly when.
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We base our dating method somewhere around 4 BC, because the Gospel of Luke tells us that Quirinius was the governor of Syria, and so we look back at some of the historical works from that time, and we look at what's happening, and we say, okay, this kind of gives us a narrow position to put Jesus at a certain point in time.
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And so I've always thought it ironic that Jesus is likely 4 BC, because BC means before Christ, so he was born four years before Christ, and he is Christ.
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But in the long run, we understand the calendar's not perfect.
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The Gregorian calendar, based on the work of Pope Gregory, and we understand this entire system is sort of not really accurate down to the number.
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That's why when people were talking, I remember back in 2000, you guys remember Y2K? You weren't born yet.
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But Y2K, everybody was afraid, because something was going to happen.
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Now that had to do with computers, but there were a 2,000 years since Christ.
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It's like, it's not exactly 2,000 years since Christ.
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It's not a specific time, but we do know this.
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Somewhere around, we'll say 4 BC, somewhere around 4 BC, Jesus is born.
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Very few scholars, very few theologians, very few, even secular humanists, would argue that Jesus wasn't a person.
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Now there are a few.
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There are a few who say Jesus is not a real character from history, but Jesus is a myth.
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He's a combination of several other characters that were conglomerated into an amalgam person, and that person is Jesus Christ.
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We don't believe that, obviously, because we have the testimony of the scripture, and also the testimony of the existence of the church.
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The church exists because Jesus Christ existed.
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The people who died for Christ in the first century didn't die for a myth.
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They died for a man, right? They died for a person who lived, and they didn't go to their deaths because of a myth.
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They went to their deaths because they saw Jesus go in the tomb, and they saw him rise from the dead.
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500 of them had seen him alive, and so we believe Jesus lived.
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Around 33 years, he lived, and so the existence of Christ as a man is really a non-negotiable.
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You have to be really on the fringe of any, even guys like Bart Ehrman, who is a tremendous skeptic and does not believe the Bible.
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Even Bart Ehrman would say anyone who denies that Jesus existed is just off the reservation.
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There's just way too much historical evidence to deny the human existence of Jesus Christ is foolish.
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So, the question of pre-existence is the question of, we know he existed at a certain time in history, but did he pre-exist that time in history? That's when we talk about pre-existence.
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That's why the question is important, right? Did Jesus exist prior to 4 BC? Now, you're all shaking your head, yes, because you're all Christians, and we know this, but this is part of Christology, right? We're studying why we believe that, right? The answer, of course, is yes, he pre-existed.
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And here, let me say something about that, too.
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We talk about pre-existing.
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You did not pre-exist your conception.
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Some people believe that.
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Some people believe that we existed as spirits prior to our birth.
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There's actually some very errant theology that teaches that, that we existed as spirits in a ethereal place, and that we asked to come here, and so God allowed us to come here.
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And he, like, every time a baby's conceived, God take a soul out of the pantry, as it were, and he, boop, dropped it right there in the womb, and now the soul is in the womb, and you've pre-existed it, but now you're there.
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I remember, very specifically, we had a person who visited our church, actually, years ago, and she was, she called herself an apostle, which I took great issue with, but that was another side of the conversation.
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The big issue, though, was one time in a conversation, she said that, she goes, well, you know, we asked to be here, and I thought she meant, like, she asked to be here at the church, and I said, well, yeah, and she said, no, no, no, before the, before the world was created, we were with God, and we asked to come here, and I was like, wow, you're so wrong, it hurts.
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Like, like, like, you've, I've never talked to anybody so wrong.
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That's really bad.
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But, any, long story short, that's called a pre-existent humanity.
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There are some people who believe that.
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Bible doesn't teach that.
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The Bible does not teach that we pre-existed our conception.
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That's a good question.
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I don't know, but, but that is a theology which is out there, and so I mention it only because, I only mention it because of this.
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If I say, if I say Jesus pre-existed Bethlehem, pre-existed his birth, and somebody thought, well, everybody pre-exists their birth, there's no big deal, right? Then that's a problem.
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So, we have to understand, by saying Jesus pre-existed his birth in Bethlehem, we are saying he was different than us.
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We're making a distinction in his nature, because human nature begins at conception.
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It does not begin in eternity past.
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Now, here's something, and people will often, I love, people love to correct me, and I, and I don't mind being corrected, so here, let me just, very quickly, before you decide to correct me, in case you might, somebody might say, well, Pastor Keith, we existed in the mind of God prior to our conception, and the answer to that is yes, but that's not existence in the actual, that's existence in the mind of God, which in the mind of God, in that sense, is potential existence, not actual existence.
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We didn't exist actually until we were conceived, right? Yes, God from eternity knew me and loved me.
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That's what we talk about when we talk about God's election.
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God foreknew, which means he loved me before I was ever created, so in the mind of God, he's always known me, but that doesn't mean I existed, I weren't there.
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You understand, that's the, that's the key, is I was not there, even though in the mind of God, I existed as a, as he knew I would be, so that is a different type of, when we talk about existing, and I have to be clear about that, because somebody, you know, if you, if you want to correct me when I say I didn't exist, yes, God knew me and he loved me before I, before I was born.
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God knew me and he loved me before I was created, but there was a time when I was not.
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That's key.
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There was a time when there was not a Keith.
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There was a time when there was not a you and a you and a you.
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There was a time when there wasn't an us, but there wasn't a time when there wasn't a Jesus, and that's pre-existence.
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That's what we're talking about tonight.
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By proclaiming his eternality, we're, we're by necessity proclaiming his pre-existence, because if he's eternal, he had to pre-exist Bethlehem.
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If he is eternal, he couldn't have come into existence here.
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Now later, we are going to talk about this.
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The human nature of Christ comes into existence in Bethlehem, because the human nature is something that God took on when God the Son becomes incarnate.
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The word became flesh.
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It wasn't eternally flesh.
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He became flesh and dwelt among us, and we talk about that as the hypostatic union, and that's further in the lesson, but the point is the human man, Jesus of Nazareth, yes, he had a point of conception and a point of birth, but the, the, the second person of the Trinity, Jesus, the God, Jesus the Son of God, and God the Son has always existed.
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He has pre-existed Bethlehem, and so that's why, that's why I make a distinction between pre-existence and eternality, because I want to make sure we're not, we're not missing that.
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When we say eternal, eternality equates to pre-existence, right? But as we're going to see later, pre-existence doesn't necessarily equate to eternality.
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We're going to talk about the difference there.
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So just so we're clear, the pre-existence and eternality of Christ are linked to his deity.
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If he is God, and let me back that up, because I don't even like using the potential if, because he is God, that's better, because he is God, he must by necessity then be eternal, because God is eternal.
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And if he is eternal, he is then by necessity pre-existing his earthly life, okay? That's, that's point one, right? And it's, people say, you're jumping right into the hard stuff.
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No, this is the important stuff, because I got to tell you, honestly, a lot of people don't even think about this stuff.
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I mean, you would, you'd be really, maybe not surprised, maybe you'd be surprised.
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How many people, I'll talk about Jesus in the Old Testament, they say, well, Jesus wasn't there yet.
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And I say, wait a minute, what do you mean he wasn't there yet? Well, he didn't come until Bethlehem.
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Slow down.
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Yeah, exactly.
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We, we, we have, we have a pre-existing Lord.
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He didn't just come into existence at the virgin birth.
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Okay, so why do we believe, this is the second point of your paper, why do we believe in the pre-existence and the eternality of Christ? Well, because the Bible says so.
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We believe everything because the Bible says so.
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Some people take issue with that, especially here lately, people seem to have the idea the Bible, the Bible tells me so is just not enough for people anymore.
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They, they, they have, have, that's fallen out of vogue, but it should be enough.
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The Bible says so, so we believe it.
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So let's look at what the Bible says.
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We're going to look at several passages, so we're going to do a little, little jumping around, but you probably know the first place we're going.
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Anybody want to take a stab at where we're going first? What'd you say? John 1.1.
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You, you were thinking Colossians 3.14? Okay, well, well, yes, the I Am statement, we're going to go there later.
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John 1.1, my favorite passage to teach on, probably spent more time teaching on this particular section of Scripture than any other in, in my time as, as a pastor.
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John 1.1 is a statement of Jesus's pre-existence, because it says, it begins with uh, in archaic, which means in Greek, in the beginning.
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Where else do we see the words in the beginning? Genesis 1.1, right? So John is mirroring Genesis 1.1.
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That, that, that cannot, that, that mustn't be missed when you go to John 1.1.
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You mustn't miss the fact that, that, especially if you look at the Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the, of the Hebrew Old Testament, he's writing it the exact same way, in archaic, in the beginning.
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It's the same idea, and he's, he's adding a mirror here.
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Okay, in the beginning, God, is what Genesis says, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
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That's the very first statement of the Bible.
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It assumes the existence of God, and it states that He was there already.
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That's an important point.
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God, it doesn't say, you know, the Bible never says God came into existence.
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It says God created.
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It assumes He already existed.
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That's important, because John 1.1 assumes the same thing about Jesus.
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It said, in the beginning was, not in the beginning came.
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That's important, because if it says, in the beginning came the word, that would indicate there was a time before when the word wasn't, right? But it says, in the beginning was, and in the Greek construction of that term, in archaic, in the beginning was the word, could actually be translated, in the beginning, the word already was.
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The idea is that He was already there in the beginning.
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So that's an important thing to consider.
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We talk about the pre-existence of Christ.
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John takes us back to before creation, and he says Jesus was there, and he says He was already there.
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Yes? Sure, yeah, there's a statement there regarding, which could be a veiled reference to the Trinity.
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Absolutely, absolutely.
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It doesn't specifically reference the Trinity, but it could, I believe, it's a reference pointing to that triunity of God.
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Absolutely, absolutely.
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So Christ is there.
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Yeah, and that's my point, is in the beginning was the word.
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He was already there.
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That word was is an important word, even though we don't think of was as an important word.
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It's an important word in that statement, because it's talking about Jesus' pre-existence.
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In the beginning was the word.
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Now we can go on later and talk about the deity of Christ, and the word was with God, the word was God, all of those things.
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But really, the part of John 1 that matters for tonight is, in the beginning was the word.
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At the end of the day, if you want to argue that Jesus didn't pre-exist Bethlehem, you have to deny what John is saying there, because John is saying with such clarity and without ambiguity, in the beginning was the word.
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And you might say, well, who is the word? Later on, he says, the word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
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We know who the word is, because John defines who the word is, and he identifies him as the divine logos, or the divine word of God.
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And he already was.
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All right, next verse, like I said, we could, we could, we could spend time in John 1, but I just wanted to point out, he already was.
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That's, that's the key there.
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Turn over to John 8.
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We looked at John 1, now go to John 8, verse 58.
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Jesus is having a conversation with the Pharisees.
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They're attacking Jesus because of the things that he's saying about himself.
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Jesus said, Abraham, long to see my day.
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And they said, you're not even 50 years old, and you're saying, Abraham, look forward to your day.
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Jesus said, before Abraham was, I am.
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John 8, 58 should be underlined, highlighted, if you do that in your Bible, or if you take notes.
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John 8, 58 is without question, because I've heard people argue.
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People say, Jesus never said he was God.
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Not actually true, if you understand how God identifies himself.
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God identifies himself by certain titles.
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God doesn't walk around saying, I am God, always.
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Neither did Jesus, but he identified himself in certain ways.
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And one of the ways that he did it, was he identified his own pre-existence.
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Before Abraham was, there's that word was again, I am.
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Now, technically, how he should have said it, and I don't want to correct Jesus's grammar, but according to the rules of grammar, it should have said, before Abraham was, I was.
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But that's not what he said.
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He said, before Abraham was, I am.
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Ego ame.
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The Greek, it's the I am statement.
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This is one of seven, I think, times, I have to go back and look for sure, but I think it's seven times Jesus used the phrase, I am, of himself.
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Even remember when Jesus was out in the water, and the man is walking on the water, he says, fear not, it is I.
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It's actually not what it says.
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Fear not, I am.
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That's what he said.
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It's a very important language Jesus speaks of himself.
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Identifying himself, going back to now, what Brother Lee said, Exodus 3, the statement of God, who should I say has sent me? I am has sent you.
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And Jesus said, before Abraham was, I am.
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But again, that pushes more into the concept of deity, and which we're going to get to in the weeks ahead.
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But the point here is, Jesus is clarifying his pre-existence.
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No debate.
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This isn't debatable.
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If you believe the Bible, and you don't believe Jesus is pre-existing, you don't believe the Bible.
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Sorry, ran out of air.
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But if you don't believe Jesus pre-existed Bethlehem, then you can't believe Scripture.
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Because Scripture is not ambiguous on this.
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It's not a question.
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This isn't just a half-baked scheme by a couple of scholars.
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This is something you got to deny the words of Christ.
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You've got to deny the words of John.
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My favorite one, John 17.
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By the way, I know some of you, well, why is it all in the Gospel of John? Well, there is a reason.
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John, huh? John's fire.
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Oh, John's fire.
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Well, I was going to make the point that John's purpose in writing is that we would believe that Jesus is the Son of God.
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He tells us that.
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And so his purpose in writing is to identify Jesus's divinity to us.
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And so these things have been written that you might believe that Jesus is the Son of God.
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So we know his reasoning.
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So he is giving us these things so that we have no doubt.
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Right? But John 17, it's called the High Priestly Prayer.
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In fact, you ever heard the Lord's Prayer? We often take the Lord's Prayer.
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Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
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That's not the Lord's Prayer.
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That's the model prayer.
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The Lord's Prayer is John 17.
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This is Jesus praying for you.
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He's praying for his disciples and he said, I pray for you and for all who will believe because of your testimony.
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That means he prayed for you because you believe because of their continued testimony.
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So Jesus is praying for us.
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And here's something he says, verse 5, John 17, Jesus is praying.
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And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
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Exactly.
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I've taken your queen.
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I've taken all of your, I've got them all.
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I've got you.
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It is checkmate.
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Right? That's it.
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Because he said, I was there with you and we shared glory before the world existed.
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No doubt what he meant because there's no ambiguity in what he said.
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Jesus never claimed to be God.
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Well, he sure claimed to pre-exist his own birth.
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And that's without doubt.
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And he also here claimed to share the glory of God.
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And the Old Testament says God does not share his glory with anyone except himself.
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And if A is B and B is C, then A is C.
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The syllogism there is Christ must be God because he shares the glory of God.
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So, all right, let's go.
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Let's see what the Apostle Paul has to say.
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Colossians 1.
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Jump over to Colossians 1, verse 16.
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Colossians 1, verse 16.
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By the way, all of these fall under the direct statements on your handout.
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I said there's direct references to his pre-existence.
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These are still under those direct statements.
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John 1, sorry, Colossians 1, 16.
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For by him, that is Christ, for by him all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether there are thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things were created through him and for him.
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And he is before all things and in him all things hold together.
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We can pack up.
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We can go home because that's it.
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If I were in a debate, that would be the point where the moderator would stop it because that would be the end.
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There's no more reason to debate.
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Be over.
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Verse 17.
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He is before all things.
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Very clear.
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All right.
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Last one of these, the direct statements.
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There are others, but these are just ones I picked out that I liked and I thought were helpful.
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Hebrews 1.8.
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And I'll read it to you.
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You don't even have to go there because we're not going to spend a lot of time on this.
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We'll look at this one a little bit later if we have time.
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But Hebrews 1.8, it says of the son, he says your throne, oh God, is forever and ever.
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And the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
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It says of the son, your throne is forever and ever.
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So there is a reference to Christ's eternality.
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All right.
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So now let's look at some indirect statements very quickly.
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Indirect statement.
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We've looked at the direct statements.
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Let's look at some indirect statements.
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One, it would be John 3.13.
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If you want to just mark that down, John 3.13.
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Jesus said, I came down from heaven.
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John 3.13.
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Son of man came down from heaven.
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That's not a statement of somebody who simply came into existence.
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That's somebody who made a trip.
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That's an indirect statement of pre-existence because he came from somewhere.
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Does that make sense? That's an indirect statement.
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Okay.
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Another indirect statement is found again.
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We just looked at Colossians 1.16.
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Christ creating is an indirect statement to his pre-existence because if he created all things, then he pre-existed all things.
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He must have.
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He couldn't have created if he wasn't in existence.
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Yes.
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But one of the things, and this is the last one of the indirect, there's a lot of these because John 1.3 also says all things were created by him.
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So we could look at a lot of those.
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Last one.
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Do you know what a Christophany is? You make a little note.
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A Christophany, a Christophany is a pre-existence, rather a pre-existent appearance of Christ.
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And there are times in the Old Testament where we see a divine figure who is later identified as Jesus Christ.
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You want to know the probably the one I think is most important.
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What was your name? First Samuel.
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Which one were you thinking? That'd be Daniel.
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But that one is slightly ambiguous only because of how we understand when he says there's a fourth one and he looks like the son of God.
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Some translations say looks like a son of the gods.
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Some people think it's an angel.
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I'm just saying there is some discussion about that.
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I like to think it's Christ.
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We even sang a song on Sunday that talked about him being in the fire with us.
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So I like to visualize Christ being there with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
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So I don't take issue with it.
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But I'm saying as far as ambiguity is concerned, you know, there could be a debate there as to whether the fourth person is actually a pre-incarnate visitation of Christ or an angel.
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I, as I said, I tend to believe it's Christ.
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But I wouldn't get an argument about it.
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However, Isaiah 6, I'll take to the bank.
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Isaiah chapter 6, the prophet, it says, In the year King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated upon his throne, high and lifted up, and the train of his robe filled the temple.
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And around him there were the seraphim, each having six wings.
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With two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
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And they said, Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty.
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All the earth is filled with his glory.
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Right? You familiar with that passage? Well, if you go over to John chapter 12, in verse 41, it says, Isaiah saw the glory of Christ.
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That was Jesus Christ.
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John 12, verse 41.
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So I think that is a direct Christophany.
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Also, for another reason, John also tells us that no one has seen the Father.
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So if Isaiah saw the Lord, he saw the Son.
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So that's another reason why I would believe that.
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But I, but it's directly, it says Isaiah saw his glory.
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And the only place that could be pointing to would be, I believe, Isaiah 6, when Isaiah saw the glory of the Lord.
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And I believe it's a reference to Christ.
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So we have there a pre-existing Christ in person.
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There's other ones you could talk about.
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Abraham, when he ate with the Lord underneath the oaks at Mamre, right before the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
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I believe that's a pre-existent view of Christ.
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Again, I base that, though, on John 1, 18.
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This is, no one has seen the Father, the only begotten God.
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He has made him known.
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I base that on that.
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Even in Adam and Eve's position, I believe the one who walked with them in the cool of the day was Jesus.
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Because it says no man has ever seen the Father.
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So I think that would include Adam.
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Now again, we could debate that, because Adam wasn't sinful yet.
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But when it says no man has seen the Father, I would have to think Adam would be included.
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But again, I think we could discuss that one further.
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But again, the pre-existent Christ is absolutely seen at certain points.
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There's even one notable figure.
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I don't have time to go through it tonight.
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But there's one other notable figure in the Old Testament that seems to be some kind of representative of God that is divine in nature and not just an angel.
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But he's called the messenger of Jehovah, or the angel of the Lord.
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And some people have identified that with Christ as being a pre-incarnate visitation of Christ.
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Richard and I have talked about that before, the angel of the Lord as being a pre-existing appearance of Jesus Christ.
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We've had that conversation.
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But that again, there's a whole reasoning behind that, because the angel of the Lord says and does things that only God says and does, which is very interesting.
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And you say, well, is Jesus an angel? No, I think the word angel is often misconstrued by us as to automatically think of angels as a created being.
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In that case, I think the word is better translated messenger.
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So that's why I call him the messenger of Jehovah, or the angel of the Lord.
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So there is some, like I said, but the question of Christophanies, I think, is one of the main arguments for the pre-existence of Christ.
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Outside of the direct statements, the indirect statement is we see him.
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We see his presence there.
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All right, moving on.
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Let us now look at some objections.
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I like objections.
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No, I don't necessarily like them while I'm teaching.
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No, but I like for people to have an objection.
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Or rather, I like to think about what the objections will be so that we are prepared.
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Because you got to understand, we believe in the eternality of Christ and we believe in the pre-existence of Christ.
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But there are many cult groups and many false teachings that would deny both of those.
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And that's why, yeah, apologetics begins with asking the questions that the other side would ask.
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We got to know what is the question that the other side would ask.
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When I say the other side, the opponent of the gospel.
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What would the opponent of the gospel ask? And the first one, I put it on your sheet, the first objection that I have heard, and I've heard this from people.
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Christ did not exist prior to Bethlehem.
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He only existed in the mind of God.
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Remember, we talked about our race.
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I've already sort of explained it.
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But yeah, I've said we didn't exist prior to our birth.
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We exist in the mind of God.
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Well, there's an entire belief system that says that's the way Jesus existed.
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He only existed in the potential.
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He didn't exist in the actual.
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He only existed in the potential.
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And so, some of you in my Sunday, or used to be in my Sunday school class, we watched a debate between Dr.
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James White and one of the leaders of an anti-Trinitarian cult group up in the North Midwest, North Midwest, up North somewhere.
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They really, they have garnered a very large following for themselves.
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And one of the things they deny is they deny the pre-existence of Christ.
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They said he did not exist before Bethlehem.
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They said he existed only in the mind of God.
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He only existed in the mind of God.
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I want to prove that is false with a verse that I've already showed you.
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Now I've showed you several verses that should prove it, but one should remove all doubt.
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And that takes you back to John 17, 5.
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Remember John 17, 5? Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
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That phrase, with you, means to be in your presence or with yourself.
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The use of para twice in that verse, with, is used twice.
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And it expresses the fact that Jesus of Nazareth and the Father are together.
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It's very similar to the language of John 1, 1.
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In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God.
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With, that word with indicates a together relationship.
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It's not that Jesus is in the mind of God, but he's in the presence of the Father.
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There's, remember there's three persons in the Trinity, and these three persons are distinct.
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And so they're able to be with each other.
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Even though they share the divine nature, they are with each other as persons.
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And so Jesus says, the glory with, with the glory I had with you before the world existed.
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I, I, I don't often do this, but sometimes I'll look at other translations to see how they deal with this.
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And I, and I found one.
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And again, I wasn't just looking to just find one that agreed with me, but I was looking to see how the different translations express this in the Greek language.
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And I found one I liked in it, and it's going to surprise you because it's not one that I normally use.
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The New Living Translation, which is a dynamic equivalent translation.
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Not, not a bad translation, but certainly one that I wouldn't use for necessarily studying the text.
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However, every once in a while, they'll, they'll hit it a little, a little, you know, sharper than other places.
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And this is one.
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The New Living Translation says, this Father bring me into the glory we shared before the world began.
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I love the word share because that's the intent of the meaning.
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The intent of the meaning of with, glorify me with the glory that we had together, is the idea of sharing that.
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And so you can't share if you're not there.
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Man, I'm doing a lot of rhyming tonight.
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But you can't share if you're not there.
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And that's the point.
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Jesus had to be there to share the glory of God, and he was.
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So anybody who says he didn't pre-exist Bethlehem, only in the mind of God, I said, well, then he couldn't have been sharing the glory of God if he didn't exist.
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So that would be my argument against that system.
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Now, the next one is a little more inversive or subversive, and that is the second objection on your sheet.
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This comes to us from those wonderful Jehovah Witnesses.
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And this is their argument.
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Christ did pre-exist Bethlehem, but he is not eternal.
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He was created first.
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That's their argument.
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They'll say, yes.
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And so most of the verses we've looked at, they don't disagree with.
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Because you say, Jesus was in the beginning.
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They'll say, yes, he was in the beginning.
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They'll say, Jesus created everything.
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They'll say, yes, he created everything.
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So at that point, not to say they're in agreement with us, because they're still denying his divinity, but at that point, we're not in argument yet, because they believe in his pre-existence.
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But here's the thing about the Jehovah Witness theology.
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I want you to hear how their Bible translates Colossians 1, 16, and 17.
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Remember, we looked at Colossians 1, 16, and 17? I want you to listen to this.
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This is the New World Translation, which is a...
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You're going to talk about a perversion.
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It's a perversion of the Greek.
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The New World Translation, it's the one that says, in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a God.
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They add the indefinite article to make Jesus a God, but not the God.
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Right? But in their Bible, Colossians 1, it says this, verse 16, By means of him, all other things were created in heaven and upon the earth, visible and things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities.
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All other things have been created through him and for him.
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Also, he is before all other things.
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By means of him, all other things were made to exist.
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Notice the word that kept creeping in, the word other.
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I mean, it just, and it is in a box.
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If you look at their translation, I mean, they do at least acknowledge that that's not part of the original.
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They add it for interpretive assistance.
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We want to assist the interpretation to make sure you're not getting it wrong.
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Jesus is created and he created everything else.
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That's their argument.
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In fact, the Jehovah Witnesses believe that Jesus is Michael.
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You know the archangel Michael, the one who battled with Satan over the body of Moses, you know, there in Jude talks about that.
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They believe that is Jesus before the incarnation, that he was God's greatest angel, that God had created.
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He was the greatest of all God's creation.
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And through that angel Michael, everything else was created.
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And then when it was time for Jesus to be born in Bethlehem, Michael was abolished and he was recreated as Jesus.
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It's a very odd theology because it's not even an incarnation at that point.
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It's a rebirth.
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He's abolished as Michael and he's reborn as Christ.
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And then Jesus dies on the cross and he's reborn again.
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They don't have really a doctrine of resurrection or incarnation.
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It's a doctrine of recreation.
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It's a very odd theology there.
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So the point of all this is they won't argue about pre-existence, but they will argue about eternality.
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And this goes back to the very first thing I said.
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Now, you got to draw to a close.
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This goes back to the very first thing I said.
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Christ's pre-existence is tied to his deity, because they'll say he pre-existed, but he wasn't divine.
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But the Bible declares that Jesus is divine and is thus not only pre-existent, but also eternal.
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This is how I, when a Jehovah Witness comes to the door, well, I have a weird way I do, but when they come to the door, I ask them a series of questions.
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But if it's ever a biblical conversation, very rarely does it get that far when you start objecting.
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Usually three times of objection, they're gone.
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They're taught that once you've gone past two or three questions, if the person isn't listening, they're not ready to receive it.
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So they move on to somebody who is.
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So usually you won't get past two or three solid questions.
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Yes.
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Sure.
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You would think so.
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A lot of their verses, I can prove the deity of Christ with their Bible.
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It's not that their Bible doesn't read as it should.
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It's they have the faithful and true witness of God, which is the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, which tells them how to interpret the Bible.
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In fact, the Watchtower itself says, and I have a copy of this particular quote.
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It says, many people who have tried to study the Bible on their own have fallen into the trap of believing as the papists and the Protestants who believe in the Trinity.
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You need us to show you how that's wrong.
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Because if you study the Bible for yourself, you're going to be a Trinitarian.
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You're not going to be a Jehovah Witness.
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The Jehovah Witnesses make Jehovah Witnesses.
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The Bible doesn't.
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I mean, that's just the facts.
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The Bible makes Trinitarians.
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Jehovah Witnesses make Jehovah Witnesses.
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So, but here's how, if you said, well, how would you discuss it? I'm going to take you very quickly.
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This will be the last thing we do tonight.
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I would take them to Hebrews 1.8.
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Hebrews 1.8, I'll read it to you so you don't have to necessarily, if you want to go there, you can.
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Hebrews 1.8, it very clearly says, but of the Son, He says, your throne, O God, is forever and ever.
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The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
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And I will ask them, who is the person being spoken of in Hebrews, in their Bible? Hebrews 1.8, who is the person? Has to be Jesus.
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Of the Son, it says this.
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No doubt.
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And they'll say, yeah, that's Jesus.
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But that's not God.
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What's the quote? The quote is from Psalm 45.6.
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How do I know that? It's in their Bible.
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Their Bible has references on the side, and that verse is referenced to Psalm 45.6.
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And guess who Psalm 45.6 is talking about? Jehovah.
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Jesus is Jehovah.
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Because Jehovah is God, and Jesus is the second person of the Trinity.
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The Father is Jehovah, the Son is Jehovah, the Spirit is Jehovah.
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And so, I point to Psalm 45, and I say, who is this about? It's about Jehovah.
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Then who is this about? It's about Jesus.
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There's the answer.
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Jehovah's Witnesses will say, He is a God, but He's not the God.
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Well, we just proved that's wrong from the text, but here's the other problem with that argument.
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If you say Jesus is a God, but He's not the God, you cannot reconcile that with Isaiah 43.10, where God Himself says, before me there was no God formed, and after me will there be no God formed.
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Jesus can't be God and not be God at the same time.
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And that's the problem with their theology.
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Later in this discussion, we're going to be examining more closely the deity of Christ, and we'll look at some of these verses again more closely.
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But for now, in the focus of His preexistence and eternality, I just wanted to note that these doctrines are inseparably linked.
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Because Christ is divine, He is thereby eternal, and if He is eternal, He must therefore be preexistent.
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And the Bible affirms this when it says, in the beginning the Word already was.
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So in our next lesson, we're going to begin looking further into the nature of Christ in His full divinity and His full humanity.
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Let's pray.
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Father, I praise you and thank you for this opportunity to study.
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I pray this has been useful and helpful for your people, and that when they leave and take this away, that they will have a better understanding of Jesus in His full nature.
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But Lord, we could never wrap our minds around the full nature of Christ any more than we could carry the Atlantic Ocean in a thimble.
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And yet, Lord, I do pray that we have drawn closer in our understanding tonight, that we would be better able to defend our faith, that we would be better able to understand what it means when we say Jesus Christ is the Lord of glory, who was and is and is to come.
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And it's in His name we pray.
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Amen.