The Calvinist Club, Sola Scriptura, Purgatory

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:33

Greetings welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon We're hoping to get as much the program in as we can before we get hit by a thunderstorm

00:40

So and it has been so long. In fact, I installed a weather a weather station at my house

00:47

I always wanted one of those little things and so I Installed a weather station and ever since I put it up sometime in May, I think

00:55

The one line that has just been empty zero never was precipitation

01:00

It hasn't rained and I don't know how long here in the Valley the Sun But it is raining right now

01:06

I guess it's raining out around Rich's place right now and we've got some big orange blobs heading our direction, which is good, but We'll see because Because all the wires around here are are really dried out so you all sudden you all sudden, you know get them real wet and they tend to start doing weird things and The max headroom thing starts happening,

01:30

I guess so no one knows what max headroom is anymore I mean, what was that in the 80s somewhere in there? Oh good grief.

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Wow So did the

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Lord gives you us so many warnings that we only have so long on earth And one of them's when you sit back and remember stuff and going wait a minute.

01:51

That was 40 years ago. Never mind Okay, well I'm gonna start off. I forgot if this would have fit in so perfectly

01:58

With some of what I was talking about last time That I kicked myself literally within a few moments after the program was done on Tuesday going well,

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I forgot that Screenshot that I have we don't need to put it up but a comment from Facebook I believe yeah, it was

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Facebook From one of my Reformed brothers and so we're gonna be talking a good bit about Roman Catholicism day

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Eastern Orthodoxy today you'll be providing responses to Claims we're gonna be looking at some video from a video

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We started looking at before about seven Catholic things Protestants can start doing which is just it's nothing more than a and a non -catholic apologist who just Clearly doesn't know anything about Roman Catholicism or the history of the church and the history of the

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Reformation and stuff like that providing a platform for a Roman Catholic apologist to present the most

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Deromanized Friendly presentation of Roman Catholicism through his channels.

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It's it's it's great but anyway We're gonna take a look at those those things a little bit later on But so since we're talking about Eastern Orthodoxy Roman Catholicism, let's start off talking about the

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Reformed shall we? It is very very important to differentiate between Reformed theology and the

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Reformed as a group Right now I could point you in last week to materials from people who identify themselves as Reformed actions activities teachings

03:42

That are just so far removed from the spirit and intention of Reformed theology that it that it leaves a lot of people going

03:49

Well, why do they call themselves Reformed? I remember there are we quote -unquote Reformed denominations that use the term

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Reformed that Without a doubt now now, hopefully you're sitting down most of you have listened to this program before but you might be new

04:06

We get we get new folks all the time I Totally shocked

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Everybody in the group that we took to Germany for the

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Reformation tour that we did in 2017 the first night in Berlin when

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I did the opening presentation I pointed out what to me anyways is sort of a given

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Something that's just been a part of my church history studies for a very very long time and That is that most of the people we would be studying specifically

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Martin Luther, but also John Calvin Ulrich Zwingli That these great men of the

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Reformation would not have extended the hand of fellowship to me at all Almost all of them would have had me kicked out of town and Some of them would have been willing to see me imprisoned and Even executed and I know that and If you can't become a mature enough student of church history to get past that you're never gonna want to say church history and you're not gonna want to see yourself in the stream of church history and You're really gonna struggle to see how the

05:23

Holy Spirit of God has been working at all in Down through the down through the entire period of Christian Church So The The reality is that We all today

05:44

Have positions that many of the Reformers would not have appreciated the term reformed has come to be attached to an exceptionally wide range of Viewpoints and teachings and beliefs and things like that So there are some very very liberal denominations that are called reformed

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Schuller's denomination was called reformed but Schuller is totally

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Unrecognizable to the Reformers as far as his theology was concerned So when we talk about reformed today generally

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I'm either talking about theology, which I will defend as biblical Which I was brought to through the exegesis of the text of the

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Old and New Testaments in the original languages That's that's the foundation. That's the ground. I Came to appreciate its history.

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I came to appreciate Its development its historical setting through my studies of church history

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But I did not come to reform theology on the basis of the authority of particular individuals

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I Had already embraced the fundamentals of reformed soteriology before I read

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Calvin so these are The theology is biblical and nothing that I say about the reformed should ever be taken as indication

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That I have any questions about that but being orthodox in your reformed theology

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Doesn't mean that you will be balanced in how you apply that in life or even how you treat

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Other Christians let alone other reformed people and I'll tell you quite honestly some of the nastiest

07:39

Slander and attack and the tuparative language

07:45

That I will that I've ever experienced comes from people who call themselves reformed the reformed can have

07:55

Incredible Not just necessary argumentation amongst themselves there there

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There are issues for us to discuss we we reform Baptists do debates with Presbyterians on baptism all the time and we

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I think Demonstrate better than almost anybody else the ability to appreciate

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The other side and to look past disagreements

08:26

Many of my forebearers were were executed by Pato Baptists in the past for their views on the subject of baptism and Today you still have a situation

08:40

Where there are many who will not even begin to grant to me or to my fellow

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Church members the the term reform. We are not reformed at all These this is absolutely definitional of what it means to be reformed ironically, they will accept as reformed people who have

09:03

Significantly less orthodox views and I have of Scripture the nature of God the atonement and everything else

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But you've got to be a Pato Baptist. It's just just written in stone so you can believe all the rest that you can you can believe everything about the sovereignty of God and God's grace and salvation and predestination election and all the rest of that stuff, but No, you got to have these you gotta dot these

09:25

Dot these I's cross these T's to be in the club so anyway

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Reformed people can be some of the nastiest people online now obviously

09:40

Don't have don't really end up crossing paths with a lot of Confessionally non -reformed people as far as having interaction with them about theological issues

09:54

That that's not my my tribe. And so I'm sure that there are there's a all sorts of things that create nastiness online amongst other groups amongst

10:04

Pentecostals and amongst Charismatics and amongst Wesleyans and stuff like that that I don't know anything about It's just not a part of what

10:13

I deal with my my Conservative Anglican brothers down in Sydney have to deal with just all sorts of stuff that I'm not

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You know, it doesn't really end up other than when I managed to get down to Australia if I ever get down to Australia again

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You know then then I sort of tune in on it, but it's just not normal part of my normal experience

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Well So we have made note of some of these things in the past and It does seem that our

10:45

Reformed brethren in Scotland and Ireland, especially now British Reformed folks have their own

10:52

Really interesting ways of doing things, okay The the

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British Reformed are the only people I know of that can they can literally take up swords Against each other as to the form of hymnal they use

11:05

They really do believe me. I first 2005 first time I went to London and That's when

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I learned all about the hymnal wars and and given that they don't have music in their hymnals

11:18

It's just words. You have to know the tunes which is fascinating but but given that I've just always been amazed

11:28

At let's just be honest the cliquishness that can exist amongst people Who would identify in some way shape or form as Reformed but my my

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Scottish and Irish especially in Ireland Some of the

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Reformed there can just be Nasty, and I mean really nasty.

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They're just just not willing to extend any level of grace at all

11:57

Especially toward people who would claim to be Reformed well, there was a comment that was posted

12:04

I I think it was I think was on the weekend. So it's been a little while By William Samuel Bruce now if that doesn't sound like a

12:15

Warrior chieftain, I don't know what does but William Samuel Bruce A group there evidently in Ireland Started jumping on me.

12:26

I guess somebody posted something from Apologia Church And so the

12:35

Accusation of new Calvinism came up whatever in the world does I've never understood what young restless and Reformed was

12:42

I wasn't young enough. I've Restless, I I don't I sleep real well as I'm getting older once in a while you have a problem, but I'm Training for something called an everesting attempt

12:58

If you don't know what that is, that's that's climbing the altitude of Mount Everest on a bike in a certain period of time

13:06

The pros are doing it now in one day that would pretty much Probably end every joint in my at least my knees would be gone forever if I did that so it won't be in one day

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But it's 29 that's over 29 ,000 feet of climbing and I'm having to diet.

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I'm having to train I'm having I'm doing that's what I'm doing all my listening to stuff right now and Lining books up and stuff like that because I didn't get to do all my

13:28

Colorado rides this year So I'm I'm gonna be doing that in September Lord willing Anyway, I beat myself up.

13:37

So I Sleep well I'm I've never

13:44

Understood what that terminology was meant to refer to especially when someone tries to apply it to me

13:51

My guess is that young restless and reformed and now new Calvinism is just what?

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More traditional type people try to label someone who doesn't do it the way they do it and Man, I'm gonna tell you something if there is if there is one massive weakness in the

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Reformed Baptist movement Which remember when I when I first heard of my first Reformed Baptist Church.

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I had to go to a bookstore as a Seminarian and Get out the handbook of denominations because I had never even heard of Reformed Baptist.

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I mean for a long time when people would say that people people go deformed Baptist was a deformed Baptist and Then when you tell them they say yeah, it's a deformed

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Baptist. This is what? So We've we've come a long ways, but we've pretty much been our own worst enemies

14:47

Because Reformed Baptists tend to Be very narrow very very narrow on the one hand.

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It can be good in That we are not gonna be blown about by every wind of doctrine and every little trend and everything else that comes along on The other hand it can be bad in that You do it our way the way we do it the way what we're familiar with or you're just not a part of our club

15:16

In essence there can be a real narrowness and sometimes the

15:22

Appreciation for the confession becomes idolatry of the confession. I'll just be honest with you.

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That's that's just the reality and So I think we've been our own worst enemies along those lines

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But the The idea of New Calvinism Basically, I think came about When you you start started seeing what looked like a mixture now look there's there's been a bunch of people have come along That have gone.

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Hey those doctrines of grace sound really cool. They make sense. I'll go with that But I was one

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I years ago. In fact, I remember when 9 -11 took place I I was supposed to have gone back east to give a presentation five points are not enough and It got scrapped for a few months before Travel began to happen again.

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I forget how long ago that how long that was after 9 -11 but I remember that first trip, you know, that's the soldiers with guns and You know the long long long long lines all that says uh, and I was going to give a presentation five points not enough

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I was talking about Reformed worship. I was talking about The it is true that when you simply join or try to join the five points of Calvinism to a

16:47

Non -reformed worldview You end up with real problems and As we've seen people leaving

16:59

Apostatizing they were the people that did that they they never had the root Five points is not enough five points is a part of reformed worldview and that world view

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Impacts what you think about the church and about all of life If you're if you're not reformed in the emergency room at the hospital

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Then you're not really reformed period so in other words if what you believe about the real first point of the six points of Stulip or through sep or whatever you want to call it but if you if you claim to believe in the absolute sovereignty of God that has to Transfer and translate into how you deal with death in the hospital room to see what

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I mean So it and what what is the purpose of the church? Why is church discipline important why is holiness important?

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And holiness cannot be defined on the basis of your grandparents predilections

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That holiness has to be defined in light of what it means To stand for the lordship of Christ and under his lordship and the application of his law in your life where you are now

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Not by wearing the same clothes that your great -great -grandparents wore So Just a few points about what it means to actually be reformed.

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So this I so this idea of new Calvinism Gets gets thrown about so I guess

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I should get to this William Samuel Bruce wrote to Raymond Stewart and Said perhaps the charge of New Calvinism was too generous.

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It's about about me is Definitely a valid charge given the mixture of ostensibly sound doctrine with worldly living

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But in James White's case the rot goes much further Again, he promotes sound doctrine, but also and so here's here's where the rot is number one vigorously defends a false view of Scripture and Promotes corrupted

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Bible versions often attempting to dazzle his hearers and apparently deep knowledge of the issues and of the

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Greek in Attempt to belittle and silence his critics. So this would be clearly either a

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King James onlyist or a TR onlyist and so Knowing that the

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Reformers were none of those things These are these people are more Calvinistic than Calvin Who was none of those things?

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But so The first thing you say is it's a false view of Scripture.

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I remember I'm the guy that defends inerrancy I'm the guy that defends the fact that we we continue to possess all the original readings and the manuscripts of the

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New Testament Today I have defended this in mosques and against atheists have debated

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Bart Ehrman Etc, etc, etc, but I have a false view

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Vigorously defends a false view. Well, I will vigorously defend the view of Scripture The vast majority of Reform scholarship today holds over against these folks who do not hold the perspective that the vast majority of Reform scholarship hold that Present a view of Scripture that they translate as the

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King James version did not hold They're the ones with the oddities when it comes to their view of Scripture But that's number one number two

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Platforms people like Michael Brown who is a friend and defender of extreme charismatics and word -of -faith heretics

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Well boy, we've we got over this one before once again ignoring the reality

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That while Michael and I have done a tremendous number of things together such as I still think one of the longest most in -depth exegetical discussions of the

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Hebrew text of Isaiah 53 Which interestingly enough was so long ago was not on video It's only on audio

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That was before we started recording video. I had to look it up recently. It's only on sermon audio. It's not on YouTube That's why

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I kept looking for it on YouTube, but I could not find it and then I found out why it's on sermon audio But it's it's only audio.

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We weren't doing video back then Of a long time ago. Anyway One of the most in -depth discussions of Isaiah 53

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Michael Brown and I One of the most in -depth defenses of the doctrine of the Trinity against Unitarians Michael Brown and I a startlingly clear refutation far clearer than anything

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I've ever heard from these guys anything I've ever heard from these guys of Homosexuality in the church

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Michael and I did that the debate in Florida Which went so very very well but despite all of that I am also the person that Michael has debated more than anyone else other than Rabbi Shmuley Boteach So I am the second most

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Debated person by Michael Brown where we are debating each other. So we have not We have done programs on this program where we have

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Disagreed where we have dialogued about the things we disagree about none of that has ever been just swept under the rug

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It's been brought out there and debated on the basis of Scripture and so if you know these folks whether they would have the

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Will to engage in that kind of meaningful interaction do the homework that's necessary Rather than just simply repeating the same pious platitudes that was was involved in the first point or not.

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I don't know but the reality is that when it comes to issues such as The doctrine of the

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Trinity the Messiah ship of Jesus Reliability of Scripture, especially knowledge of Hebrew and the

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Hebrew text homosexuality the entire field Who do we have that I would rather be doing those debates with than Michael and He just drives you nuts because you don't like what he believes about the other things.

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Well, I don't either that's why we debate him That's why we debate those issues But we do so as brothers and you can't do that because if you're honest with yourself, you don't think he is

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You don't think he is there's the issue Then number three had to deal with this one goes to mosques to quote debate and quote

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Muslims Their formal moderated debates why put quotes around it are you seriously suggesting they weren't debates

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Bringing the gospel Down to the level of being some way comparable to the satanic lies of Islam Meanwhile, the

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Muslim debaters love him because he gives them ammunition for their claims. The Bible is corrupted Now this was just a flat -out lie that I just simply had to expose and I simply have to call this gentleman to repent and repent sincerely

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For this kind of slanderous lie because that's what it is And again, the gentleman's name is

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William Samuel Bruce William Samuel Bruce Goes to mosques to debate

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Muslims bringing the gospel down level being in some way comparable to the satanic lies of Islam. I wonder if all of those

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Calvinist missionaries that first brought the gospel to Muslims are not turning over in their graves

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And what has happened to the people that left back at home that have become this cold To missions work, what would you do

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Samuel if you had the opportunity to stand in a mosque and proclaim Jesus? Do you really think that's bringing the gospel down?

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Why on what love give me some kind of meaningful argumentation from Scripture?

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Was Paul bringing the gospel down to the level of Jewish mythology to proclaim the gospel in synagogues?

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How about Roman mythology for proclaiming it in Roman cities in in the in the marketplaces?

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Is that what they were doing? Of course not. This is just pure pure Slander, it's just absurd.

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I Do not understand what motivates someone's heart to look at opportunities I would like to think that my reformed brethren would rejoice that we have actually had the opportunity of Walking into places like that and we got to go in those places not because those people think that we're compromisers

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There's not a one of those people out there that think I'm a compromiser You name me a single row a single

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Muslim apologists. I've debated the things that I compromised in anything Whatsoever in my encountering of that with them in a

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Senate in the in the mosque not a one of them thinks that not a one of them thinks that and You take this this

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The the second part because you hold to this this Indefensible view of Textual critical theory this indefensible view of history and say see they love him

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Because he gives them ammunition for their claims. The Bible is corrupted not when they're debating me

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Not when they're debating me Maybe you haven't watched some of the debates about about Allegations biblical corruption, but you're not even close to a semblance of reality in Dealing with those debates

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Look at the debates I've done with Adnan Rishi on the subject Look at the debates I've done with Yusuf Ismail in South Africa on that subject that at Northwest University Pachisarum you couldn't do that and you know that and Yet you sit behind your computer screen and take shots as a reformed a truly reformed person

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Stunning shame on you. Just shame on you. You just Wow White like so many other new

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Calvinists Probably a Calvinist longer than he has is unafraid to resort to dishonesty and mockery in support of his position

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Well, no examples were given, of course That's just the way that slander works is just throw it out there

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But this is the kind of stuff that you're that you're dealing with When you encounter the crusty

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Calvinist the the the Calvinism that is traditional the

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Calvinism that very often does not result in a

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There is there is a way of being bold in evangelism That will communicate that your heart

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Passionate for the salvation of the people to whom you are reaching out and then there is a way of being bold and evangelism

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That says the exact opposite of that That says I'm doing this To prove something to God and I really don't care about you

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That's not we've ever wanted to communicate to the Muslim people or to anybody else that matter or to anyone else that matter, but there is sadly an element in In reformed theology that can lead to that kind of crusty hardness

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That truly it brings disrepute to the gospel So there you go you you go out there you seek to Bring the gospel to The Muslim people and that's what you get from the folks back home.

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It is is something like that. There you go. Well That's one of the reasons I I said it before I'll say it again,

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I I don't care about the Calvinist Club I don't care if people want to say well

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He's not reformed because he doesn't dress like me and he doesn't sing the songs I sing or he doesn't tie his shoes the way

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I do or whatever else Reformed theology is biblical theology.

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I'm not moving from that. I'm defending that but I'm gonna tell you It's far too easy for me to point to example after example after example of People who get their theology straight and lose their heart in the process not interested in it.

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Don't want it. There's a good example next Screenshot, it's amazing.

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You know, it's the only thing screenshots are cool Screenshots are extremely useful.

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The only thing I don't like about screenshots is you can't search them Because it's a graphic So you can't search the graphic for the text unless I suppose there would be a way to Turn them into PDFs That that would be a really neat Program Would be a program that would that would tie into like on Mac I said

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I just do command command control or command shift 5 I think is what it is and You just select what you want save it goes right into right into my

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Dropbox and that way I've got it here and Wouldn't it be cool to have a utility that would take that and then

30:20

OCR the screenshot and Save it as a PDF That I wonder if there is such a thing

30:32

If because if I'm slow enough to come up with it someone someone thought of it faster than I did Because then you could then you could search it then you could search text and you could find stuff and that would be really useful

30:46

No, because you can't you can't search the you can't search the audio anyway

30:56

So a couple days ago I'm not sure when it was a 720. So what is that?

31:02

two days ago three days ago James Fox Higgins now somebody's told me

31:11

The James Fox Higgins has a webcast who doesn't We do too

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We just started it before anybody else did that's all and That he is a new Christian.

31:22

Oh Okay Don't know anything about him, but someone posted this from an

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Eastern Orthodox perspective. So Maybe that's where it's coming from. I don't know but here's what it says.

31:34

It says I think it's weird That solo scriptura apologists case in point dr.

31:41

James White So often use secondary texts like dictionaries and Greek lexicons to show you that what the

31:49

Bible really means is that it is Totally sufficient in of itself. It seems like insanity to me

31:57

Okay now most folks who are

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Familiar with the historical discussion of soul scriptura Recognize Immediately what the problem is here, but so many

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It You you got to understand that for me it's a little frustrating

32:22

When you've been seeking to communicate what solo scriptura means literally

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From the first time you you defended that belief Coming up next month 30 years ago

32:41

Yeah, August of 1990 was my first moderated public debate. I Wish I had a date to place.

32:49

I wonder do we still have the cassette tapes anywhere? Yeah It might be in some of those old dividing line newsletters that we have somewhere

33:01

But I would be really I'd be interested in knowing I mean I could just scroll the calendar back to August of 1990 and sort of take a wild guess

33:10

I suppose, but I'd like to know when that was which day It'd be it'd be fun that we just think at this self -promotion stuff and it would be fun to To go.

33:22

Hey, you know 30 years ago was when we we began Doing moderated public debates

33:29

Jerry Matitix and I Long Beach, California. I don't remember the name of the Roman Catholic Church.

33:34

I remember it looked like That'll be burned into my memory forever from up front what that Catholic Church looked like from inside But that was in solo scriptura.

33:46

And so literally for 30 years, and of course I was doing this before then It wasn't the first time I dealt with solo scriptura but Literally for 30 years.

33:55

I've been trying to communicate to folks. In fact, I just looked over here This was the

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Tract that we were passing out during the papal visit 1993 up in Denver, Colorado and the pillar and foundation of the truth.

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It is a Tract dealing with Doctrine of solo scriptura and defending it against the various Roman Catholic Argumentations against it and things like that.

34:28

So yeah, it's That was only three years after that debate and I think about it. So that's 27 years ago that we were that and it was yeah,

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I was When was the world youth that he was like in July or something was yeah, yeah, so it's about 27 years ago just this month that we were doing that so James Fox Higgins is correct

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That I would be called a solo scriptura apologist a person who defends that doctrine but to defend it you have to define it and I have done that repeatedly and The opponents of solo scriptura

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Almost to a man Refuse to accurately represent it

35:12

When I first read Catholicism and fundamentalism Carl Keating's book first thing

35:20

I recognized was the misrepresentation of the doctrine now The vast majority of Protestants could not define solo scriptura accurately.

35:32

So Certainly Carl should know better today Than he did back then but it's at least understandable that There would be some level of confusion

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Because so many Protestants don't know what it means or don't apply it don't live it or have a

35:55

Pitifully narrow understanding of what it actually means as well so this objection

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This is an objection to the fact that I will use secondary text now immediately secondary text

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Raises a number of issues that have to be have to be addressed a Secondary text implies a primary text primary text to be scripture

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Secondary texts are not of the same nature as scripture and the key to understanding what the doctrine of solo scriptura means is to recognize that it is a statement about the nature of Scripture that implies an

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Exclusivity to the nature of scripture that scripture is unlike anything else no

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Greek lexicon No work of Historical study of Greek grammar or Hebrew grammar or Ugaritic or Aramaic or anything else

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Exists Exists on the same level as scripture, which is they are new sauce the

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Greek term God breathed That Paul used in writing to Timothy all scripture is they are new sauce

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Badly translated in most English translations as inspired better translated as God breathed or breathed out by God Nothing else is they are new sauce the church isn't they are new sauce

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Tradition is not they are new sauce The only thing is they are new sauce is Holy Scripture what

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God has revealed in Holy Scripture and Part of the definition of solo scriptura is the assertion of and recognition of that reality that If scripture is

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God speaking if it is if it is the very breath of God Which is what breathed out by God put your hand from your mouth as you're speaking.

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You will feel the those Puffs of breath that you have to produce to be able to produce sound

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That's the intimate level of what scripture is if Scripture is

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God speaking then scripture has an a an epistemological authority that is unique in and of itself

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This is why Liberalism its first target is a denominations view of scripture

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You must debilitate the highest view of scripture to then bring in false doctrine because as long as you have the highest view of scripture then you have a you have a view that This is meant to be taken as a whole it does not mean that you can't look at what

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John believed or Paul believed or James believed and compare them with one another and Recognize the differences in language or any of those types of things

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But what it does do is it goes beyond? The individual authors and books to a concept of what scripture is the scripture is something that took 1 ,500 years

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To bring into existence in a unique fashion in multiple languages in different historical contexts 1 ,500 years and It was the intention of God to give us this as a whole and that it has a coherent and consistent message that belief

39:42

I Keep having to emphasize this but that belief is A small minority belief amongst those who call themselves

39:50

Christians both in academia as well as in the church in the West today That is a sad thing to have to say but I have to keep repeating it so that you

40:00

Recognize that if you believe that you are in the minority So you will not will not be shocked when you encounter many people

40:06

Who do not have that kind of belief? without that foundation then all

40:12

Christian theology becomes matters of Individual opinion. Well, I go with this early church father.

40:18

I go with that early church father Well, I don't go with any early church fathers at all. I just come up with my own thing There can be no message of the

40:25

Christian faith to the world today without the highest view of scripture so that Involves understanding that scripture is

40:35

Theanostos that it is God breathed that it has that nature that that men spoke from God as they are

40:40

Carried along by the Holy Spirit is how Peter put it as Jesus Himself expressed it when refuting the

40:47

Sadducees. Have you not read what God spoke to you saying? Have you not read what

40:54

God spoke to you saying and then he quotes him something that was written 1400 years earlier You put those together and you start understanding the tremendous gift that we have in scripture and so In light of that Sola scriptura

41:19

Begins by saying this and only this is Theanostos there is nothing else that is

41:27

Theanostos Nothing else So it's unique you cannot make this a lower part of a bigger thing as Rome does and Some Eastern Orthodox do not in quite as a dogmatic fashion, but they do functionally that is in Roman Catholicism This is written tradition then you have

41:51

Oral tradition I point to nothing because they can never tell you what the oral tradition is It's whatever Rome defines it dogmatically to be

41:58

When Rome gets around to doing something like that, but it's this Nebulous Undefined body it's been passed long since the

42:08

Apostles, but we don't really know what's in it So then you have written tradition oral tradition together become capital

42:15

S capital T sacred tradition within Roman Catholicism so The problem with that of course is that makes the undefined oral tradition

42:27

Theanostos as well So there is something Theanostos outside of scripture

42:34

So when Rome defines for example, the last two dogmas that she did define over the past couple of hundred years well past 150 years

42:46

That being the Bible assumption Mary and papal infallibility When she claims she's drawing from oral tradition

42:57

That functionally becomes a claim to new revelation except that it is the idea that this

43:06

Oral tradition was passed down through the centuries Can't give any evidence of it for hundreds and hundreds of years, especially for those dogmas.

43:15

Nobody happened to mention it So we're not sure I was passed down, but it's still from the Apostles and therefore you can dogmatize it

43:23

You can make it something that you have to believe it to enter into the presence of God to have forgiveness of sins It's part of the gospel.

43:30

You can dogmatize it by the authority of the church That's That's modern -day revelation when you can say that in 1954 you have to believe something that no one for the first Thousand years the church taught as dogma

43:53

That's new revelation. You don't want to call it that I get it, but that's what it is So in Rome then you have

44:05

Other things They don't want to claim this. I remember I remember when I asked

44:10

Mitchell Packwood in our debate in 1999 in soul scripture in San Diego Can you give me a single word that Jesus ever said that has been defined infallibly by the

44:18

Roman Catholic Church of? Him having said it that's not found in Scripture No, anything the

44:24

Apostles ever said There's been defined by Rome infallibly that has not found Scripture. No Scripture is the honest us.

44:35

It is therefore unique in its character and Because it is unique in its character

44:42

Then sola scriptura means that Scripture is the soul because it's unique Infallible rule of faith for the church

44:56

It does not mean that the church will not have other rules of faith. It does not mean that the church cannot Learn from and be blessed by Natural theology general revelation

45:10

We've certainly been blessed by mankind's growth and our staying in the natural world around us in the sense of medicines and Technology and we're being blessed right now to be able to speak to you in this fashion

45:23

Live around the world there there are people literally watching this around the world never could never have done this in the past So we're blessed by all these things, but they none of that Including our ability as a church to communicate with other parts of the church great rapidity

45:42

That allows for denominations to make doctrinal decisions from a global perspective all these things

45:50

None of that however can displace the unique position of Scripture as the soul they honest us in Fallible rule of faith the church we can have fallible rules of faith, but they are not they honest us and therefore they are always underneath and subject to the unique character and therefore authority of Scripture, so Sola scriptura is not a claim

46:20

That We can answer every single question that could ever be asked of biblical narratives we do not know

46:35

What Peters Grandfather's favorite sport was

46:41

We do not know what James's favorite food was We do not know

46:49

Which one of the apostolic band told the funniest jokes and made Jesus laugh more often than anyone else

46:56

Might find out someday, but we do not know that and we do not need to know that We know that Jesus said far

47:09

More than is recorded for us in the Gospels any one of the Gospels you can read in a matter of minutes

47:15

No matter of minutes that they were not attempting to record an exhaustive amount of data and The Bible Sola scriptura does not mean that the

47:31

Bible is an inexhaustible Collection that gives you an answer to every question you could ever ask about Jesus or the prophets or Moses or What's coming in the future or anything else?

47:45

It's not meant to be any of those things and when we try to turn it into those things And this is one the biggest things when you haven't thought through what

47:53

Sola scriptura actually means then the other side gets you to defend a definition of Sola scriptura that is

48:02

Not what we actually believe and you end up turning the Bible into something that it should never be and we see people doing this all the time

48:10

Trying to turn the Bible into a scientific textbook so it can answer this question that question that question rather than giving us the overarching principles

48:17

The the uniformity of nature God is a creator that has allowed Meaningful scientific method to exist.

48:24

We end up turning the Bible into something. It was never intended to be and so Sola scriptura is

48:34

Not a claim that the Bible is an exhaustive revelation that answers every question

48:42

It is Also, when when this when James Fox Higgins says that I use dictionaries in Greek lexicons

48:51

Why would I use dictionaries in Greek lexicons? Well because I engage in exegesis because I want to know when

48:58

I open this Greek New Testament up to Luke chapter 22 and I begin reading here and I encounter

49:11

Something called a hapax legamina a hapax legamina Now what's a hapax legamina?

49:18

A hapax legamina is A word hapax means once legamina means to be named.

49:24

It's named once it's it's it's a it's a word Sometimes just the root that appears only once in the

49:33

Canon of Scripture now Many words like Lagos Lagos has a wide semantic domain a wide

49:43

Range of meaning from word to matter to thing it can be used in many different ways

49:51

But it's used many times in Scripture so you can compare those uses with one another a hapax a hapax legamina you have nothing to compare it to and So I want to know what that word would have meant in the mind of the original author in the mind of the

50:11

People to whom he was writing Is he borrowing from someone when when when

50:17

Paul uses? arsonic oites Which is not a hapax, but arsonic oites translate as homosexual

50:27

It's men with men in bed And When we look at it historically in the greater greatest probability

50:37

Paul used that first There's one other possibility, but most people Paul was first one to use it.

50:43

Where'd he get it? Did he make it up himself? That's quite possible That's quite possible.

50:48

It's quite possible that he took the Greek septuagint from Leviticus 18 and 20 The terminology is used there put together to refer to homosexuality

50:58

Was he quoting a rabbi that he knew that had done that before him These are elements of how you do meaningful biblical exegesis so that If you don't do biblical exegesis, you're putting your own thoughts

51:16

Into the scriptures and then saying this is what God says We don't need that.

51:21

We got plenty of that on the channel between 20 and 22 here in Phoenix We Don't need that we need to know what

51:30

Scripture was actually saying and so Exegesis is the is the discipline that allows us to honor

51:38

God's Word By making sure that when we say thus saith the Lord, it really is that thus saith the

51:45

Lord So I use Greek lexicons. I have Right here

51:52

I have My accordion set up just popped up on the screen here and Okay, I just happened to see

52:01

I saw Romans chapter 1 up from stuff we talked on Tuesday And my eyes fall upon a

52:10

Latrusan well, I Know what the root is Latruo. Latruo is the highest form of worship.

52:17

I know how Latruo and proskuneo Um right before that as a boss they sawn

52:25

That root also used in the Greek Septuagint. These are terms that refer to worship and various kinds of worship

52:33

But it's very useful to be able to see in a in all the and I am so blessed until The EMP hits

52:43

I am so blessed to have this massive library I mean,

52:49

I'd still have my paper library even if the EMP hit but I now have so much stuff That is only in electronic form that it's a little bit scary but I have a huge I Mean, I literally on this hard drive

53:09

Have more lexical information about the history and development of the

53:15

Greek and Hebrew languages Then was possessed by mankind 60 years ago in any one place

53:23

Just amazing. It's just amazing. It's it's fantastic. It's it's something to be to rejoice about The very time we have the greatest attacks upon the faith is the time

53:33

We have the greatest means of providing defense the faith that don't don't tell me that's not a part of God's providence

53:39

But I want to I want to know how Latruo Was used in the

53:44

Greek Septuagint because that's the Bible of the early church. I want to know what Hebrew terms it's translated and I want to know all of its uses in the

53:53

New Testament I can just click on it and have all the uses in the New Testament of that particular term. Is that a violation of Sola Scriptura No, it is not you have to have a very twisted

54:12

Or Simply inaccurate or based on ignorance understanding of what

54:17

Sola Scriptura is. Sola Scriptura does not say That the

54:23

Bible alone tells me how to use accordance because it doesn't I can read the Bible all day long and There's still stuff that program over there can do that I don't know to this day and the stuff that I do know

54:35

I did not learn from reading the Bible The Bible is not claiming sufficiency for using accordance and The Bible is not claiming sufficiency for the translation of the languages of the

54:50

Bible Into a language that did not exist when the Bible was written

54:57

There was no one speaking English when the last syllable of the New Testament was written in Koine Greek and So the idea that is smuggled into James Fox Higgins, and he probably got this from somebody else there.

55:13

There's probably some Priest or something. He heard repeating this or something. I don't know You know when you when you talk, you know

55:21

When I when you talk with you with Jehovah's Witnesses and Jehovah's Witnesses Misrepresent the doctrine of the treaty.

55:28

It's so easy to literally become angry You're misrepresenting a wonderful beautiful divine truth, but they probably don't know that the vast majority of Jehovah's Witnesses only know what they've been told and they've only they've only been told a twisted half -truth and James Fox Higgins Maybe has never read any of the books on solo scriptura that are right back here on on the shelf

55:55

I don't know But he has imbibed the false idea that to believe in solo scriptura is

56:04

To believe that scripture is totally sufficient in of itself for the translation of ancient languages into English Which the

56:16

Bible never claims to be sufficient for at all. That's not what the claim is and So when he comes to his conclusion, it seems like insanity to me

56:28

Maybe he might want to stop and go well, I don't like that guy but he's not completely stupid and He has engaged in really meaningful debates

56:44

With look if you just take the debates of Mitch Pacwa Did you listen to that debate?

56:51

Did you think about what was said? Did you hear the fact that I was asking him questions?

56:57

That were meaningfully related to the topic and I would interact with him on the topic in such a way that I was listening to him and understanding what he was saying

57:09

Why won't you do that in reverse I've never quite understood that This is a straw man.

57:20

It's a false Representation of what solo scriptura is

57:25

I Wasn't gonna spend all that much time on my goodness. It's it's we've almost gone through an hour Yes, just an

57:33

FYI that pillar track that you held up Uh -huh, the newer version of that is available at 1milliontracks .com.

57:41

Why haven't I seen one of these? We haven't gotten our batch yet But I'll work on that but it is online available now.

57:51

How am I supposed to promote these things? When I when

57:56

I didn't even know this Let alone and have not even seen one and don't even have one to hold up This folks is why

58:06

When people say we're in it for the money It's have to go but your marketing skills are not exactly top -drawer.

58:18

No, no, they're not they Are not my stretched imagination.

58:24

Well good. I'm looking forward to seeing that Okay All right, you you got this in there

58:37

Okay, so I have already been preaching for an hour I'm sorry

58:47

Yeah, we we have these two guys again The seven seven things

58:54

Catholic seven Catholic things Protestants should do or something Yeah, seven kind of things Protestants can start believing right now.

59:01

Okay, and So we've got our our Catholic and our Protestant guy here.

59:07

I'm just gonna be real honest This is the Protestant guy that I wanted to have on the program. We've never made it work

59:12

We've talked about doing it because he had this guy on before and I was like, dude I Really get the feeling you're not really a

59:24

Protestant. You're just a non -catholic You don't seem to know why the

59:29

Reformation took place you don't seem to know What the issues were why those issues remain relevant today?

59:36

Yes things have changed since the Reformation Yeah, Pope Francis is a train wreck

59:42

Theologically speaking even from the Roman Catholic perspective I get all that But It is frustrating

59:51

Because I I don't know how I don't know how you do apologetics to the unbeliever

59:58

When your foundations are so wishy -washy Just really wishy -washy and but unfortunately, that's that's what we've got here and so the last one we did was stuff about Mary and I read to you some of the the actual statements concerning Mary and co -mediatrix and co -redemptrix and and All you know

01:00:20

But the fifth Marian dogma is about and the paralleling of Jesus in Mary and all this these things

01:00:25

And what this Roman Catholic apologist guy is doing is I think he's Australian and so you've got the

01:00:32

Australian thing, you know, and Everybody knows Australians are really wonderful and they drink fosters and actually most

01:00:38

Australians I know do test fosters. But anyways You've got that stuff going on and then it's then it's what you're doing is you're you're taking

01:00:46

Rome and you're taking General Protestant thing and you're trying to bend them over as far as you can bend them

01:00:53

So you can maybe you can get somebody to jump across the gap there You know a type of a type of a thing and unfortunately, it's very effective

01:01:02

Because how many churches do you know today? How many churches today? Ever Okay, let me back this up.

01:01:11

There are a lot of conservative churches that will express quote -unquote anti -catholic sentiments without having

01:01:20

The theology in their everyday preaching that would demand that they even bothered to address it so in other words, it's one thing to take shots at Rome because Francis is a blazing liberal it's another thing to Have a meaningful doctrine of the

01:01:42

Lord's Supper so that you can have them and the atonement So you can have a meaningful interaction with Rome's doctrine of the mass as a perpetuatory sacrifice

01:01:52

Very few Protestant churches these days in the whole as a percentage.

01:01:59

They're still believe me So thankful for all the good faithful brothers that are still out there, but we all know we are in the minority

01:02:07

So thankful for those that are and who go no one sacrifice one time

01:02:15

No, no priest turning bread into Jesus So anyway, so this guy is presenting these sort of Protestantized I'm not sure that he would survive walking down the street during the

01:02:28

Council of Trent to be honest with you but Be it as it may

01:02:34

So we we skipped the first Catholic thing because I think it was crossing yourself. So it was irrelevant. I I had used that as an example of an adiaphora in the

01:02:45

Roman Catholic controversy Because I have Anglican friends across themselves. Okay world's not gonna end

01:02:53

So the second one was on Mary third one though now we're getting down into the gospel now we're getting down into the gospel and so let's

01:03:04

Let's interact with this third point in the seven seven points

01:03:09

This is not five points because then it would be very confusing The second so first one was sign of the cross second one was blessed

01:03:14

Mary Yeah And then third one is third thing is like this might be a little harder to swallow for many Protestants But I want to I want to kind of give an argument for why this shouldn't be that complicated

01:03:23

It should be that controversial And it's going to depend on the type of Protestant you are

01:03:28

But I think that Cath I think that Protestants should believe in purgatory now Purgatory is one of those real

01:03:34

Catholic II words that might sound scary But you don't have to accept the word to accept the concept.

01:03:41

And so let me just sort of present an argument I'm really not sure that the Council of Florence would have agreed with that That you don't have to accept the word to accept the the the concept

01:03:52

But let's let's be clear about something here purgatory Has been defined as dogmatic teaching by Rome, so You you won't get it from this guy, but dogma and doctrine are two different things

01:04:08

For example the the Comediatrix nature of Mary has been taught as doctrine by Popes, but that's not the same as a dogma

01:04:14

A dogma is de fide by faith. It is definitional of what the gospel is. You can't reject it and be saved now

01:04:21

That's old -time Roman Catholicism, that's dogmatic Catholicism, that's the

01:04:26

Catholicism of Trent that's Catholicism up to Vatican II and It's the

01:04:34

Catholicism That Roman Catholic apologist as general in general continue to defend though.

01:04:41

They realize in these days That's really tough with Frankie That's really still that was still the

01:04:48

Catholicism of Ratzinger even though Ratzinger was Ratzinger is continues to be brilliant. He's a brilliant theologian wrong as can be but still a brilliant theologian he was the head of the the modern -day incarnation of the

01:05:01

Inquisition for crying out loud and plainly is Not happy with his successor

01:05:09

So you got two popes that are not really on the same page on a lot of things. But anyway I Recognize that many of their own

01:05:17

Catholics with whom you speak are not Orthodox Roman Catholics. They're They they

01:05:28

Wouldn't most of them have never read the Cairns and decrees of the Council of Trent. They've never read anything from Vatican one

01:05:35

They never read anything Vatican to for that matter. They may be They've probably seen this

01:05:42

But how much of it they've read You know universal

01:05:47

Catholic Catholic catechism and of course Francis's already made one change in that just by papal authority in regards to capital punishment

01:05:57

Which is in of itself interesting Purgatory and see what you think about it.

01:06:02

And again, tell us in the comment section below if you like And it would be something like this right the Saints in heaven are neither sinning

01:06:11

Nor are they attached to sin? Okay, why? Why?

01:06:17

the Saints in heaven have left this life and if they are in heaven, they are in Christ and here is where Theology matters and the

01:06:31

Reformation matters and the Bible matters. Why does anyone have peace with God and we in Rome?

01:06:37

disagree on what this the answer to this is as much as Especially and folks this could be a long program

01:06:45

Rich. I hope you're doing okay in there as as much as We are facing

01:06:56

Trying times and as a result you may have noticed same thing

01:07:01

I'm noticing there are Roman Catholics Who are saying many the same things we're saying about where the society is going

01:07:10

Because it's you know, the Marxists will shoot us all with the same guns

01:07:16

Do you do you remember when I started talking? Don't sit there and eat in front of me.

01:07:23

I'm hungry Wow, oh, that's pop.

01:07:29

That's the closest popcorn. Okay, great Rich can tell I'm I'm in the I'm in the preaching mode today so I happen to be hungry right now,

01:07:36

I'm doing intermittent fasting and I didn't have a lot for my first meal and so my stomach's grumbling and I'm hungry and So rich it goes when

01:07:49

I say it's gonna be a long show it goes against food and sitting in front of me eating I'm telling you folks. You don't see the things that I see that Helped me in my that helped me in my sanctification.

01:08:00

Thank you for helping me my sanctification What was I talking about, I don't know

01:08:07

Totally blew my bloop. Are we talking about Catholicism? Is that where is it? Is that what this this video is about man?

01:08:14

Yes, okay We are being forced

01:08:19

I Started talking about this years ago, and I don't remember if you remember when I started talking about this, but I started

01:08:26

Realizing years ago that in light of that unless the Lord brought about a change in our society

01:08:31

Roman Catholics and believing Protestants who know why there's a difference who know why the

01:08:37

Tiber River exists Are going to be pushed into closer and closer and closer proximity with one another as a result our

01:08:54

Differences must be understood They should not be exaggerated or minimized

01:09:04

The temptation amongst fundamentalists is you exaggerate them

01:09:11

You Simply dismiss the other side as having anything meaningful to say you don't engage in debate

01:09:20

To engage in debate is to show respect for the other side by accurately representing them

01:09:28

And I believe we are required to do that Fundamentalists and that includes Calvinistic fundamentalists like the fellow we were talking about early in the program see showing respect for Another perspective as That's what

01:09:45

New Calvinists do and that's reducing the gospel. You just blast them. You don't try to understand them

01:09:51

You don't try to engage them. You just blast them Okay, that's the one side On the other side the temptation is let's not worry about what our differences are

01:10:00

We let's try to come up with a least common denominator Christianity the mere

01:10:05

Christianity stuff let's do the ecumenical thing where we can all affirm a

01:10:12

General doctrine of the Trinity a general doctrine of resurrection death, burial and resurrection of Jesus and let's call it quits at that point

01:10:20

Let's not worry about the fact that that's not where the Apostles called quits that they defined a whole lot more than that we can't come to agreement beyond that level, so let's just Stop there.

01:10:32

That's that's going to be the temp the really hard difficult thing is

01:10:39

Is to continue doing the meaningful debates because you believe in the truth while recognizing

01:10:48

That we are saying a lot of the same things to our society and We don't share the gospel

01:10:59

We do not share the gospel so if you want to hear some more about this go listen to a couple sweater vest dialogues ago, maybe at least one where Doug and I were talking about Basically we talked about GK Chesterton.

01:11:20

We didn't really talk about Anything else Right, that's too back.

01:11:26

Okay. Yeah anyway Listen to what we discussed and You'll be able to It's I think it's gonna be one of the most challenging difficult areas

01:11:39

And in fact there was a dialogue that Peter Lightheart had with Doug Wilson about Two weeks ago three weeks ago something like that That had me a little worried to be honest with you when

01:11:51

I first started listening to it because I was just sort of like But I was

01:11:58

I found it very useful challenging, but useful so check out some of those things and Basically the conversation that Lightheart and Wilson had was

01:12:10

Should we be seeking to bring about unity between Catholics and Protestants? Doug's answer was no but his his his no answer is about as different as an independent fundamentalist

01:12:25

Baptist no answer could possibly be honestly his his no answer is

01:12:33

Jesus will take care of all that stuff by bringing us all together in the gospel Eventually, that's not what the that's not what the independent finalist

01:12:43

Baptist is saying. So challenging stuff to think about but the point is this is on all of us this is coming on all of us and We have not many of us have modeled in our teaching and preaching

01:13:01

How important the foundational issues are and when

01:13:09

I look back look in August of 1990 Did I see how all this stuff is related together?

01:13:17

No Do I hope By August of 2030 if the

01:13:25

Lord gives me that many years To have a significantly clearer understanding of how all this fits together.

01:13:34

Oh, Lord, I hope so. I Hope so. Is that compromise to gain clarity over time?

01:13:45

I know it can't be It can't be we're to grow in the grace and knowledge of Lord Jesus Christ that it can't be compromised.

01:13:54

So All of us every single one of us

01:14:01

Has to think through these very issues and what these guys are talking about is a gospel issues

01:14:07

Purgatory is a gospel issue now. I know I know The phrase gospel issue has become so overworked and so overused

01:14:21

Everything is a gospel issue. If someone claims something's gospel issue. They need to be able to give you a really

01:14:27

Reasonable foundation for believing that here's my foundation

01:14:34

The doctrine of purgatory Speaks directly to the mechanism and means by which we have peace with God It speaks directly to the efficacy and intentionality of the atoning work of Jesus Christ It speaks directly to what our status is as Righteous saints in Christ because Rome has a completely aberrant doctrine of what that means

01:15:02

Rome denies the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ. Most Protestants do today as well most

01:15:10

Protestants do today as well our hymnology doesn't but the theology in many in the vast majority of the schools does and so the doctrine of purgatory is

01:15:25

A gospel doctrine even in Roman Catholicism Even in Roman Catholicism.

01:15:31

I know there are liberal priests that don't believe in purgatory I know that that I am presenting a more orthodox understanding of purgatory than many

01:15:39

Roman Catholic priests do I get that I understand and Roman Catholic apologists are well aware of this and they will

01:15:46

Fight and argue about it against their own people. They have to they see the same issue They they have their issues with their their liberals the same way we have our issues with our liberals they see that and There are

01:15:59

Roman Catholic apologists that appreciate the stands that I have taken against liberalism and argued against liberalism.

01:16:06

They do and Have borrowed some of that information for their own uses. So by the way,

01:16:17

I hope that you're not hearing me saying That Discussions like this one shouldn't take place.

01:16:24

I just wish the Protestant to be honest with you brother had a backbone showed more knowledge of The historical realities in this situation.

01:16:35

I really do That's that's the problem as I see it so Purgatory in Orthodox Roman Catholicism is the idea that It is not a second chance salvation

01:16:54

You have to be in a state of grace when you die It is the continuing process of sanctification because there's no imputed righteousness of Christ and so let me use let me use the post

01:17:07

Reformation Illustration that I think is extremely useful here

01:17:14

Looking at the clock You've probably heard if you haven't heard it's the first time great you've probably heard it attributed to Martin Luther the concept of the dunghill

01:17:32

Now this was a wonderfully German Farmer illustration that that would have communicated so plainly and clearly in its day

01:17:45

But it's still Rural and rustic enough that it still communicates today.

01:17:53

It's gonna be a second before I bring them back up So if you want to pop them down a second, we'll we'll be back to in a second In Luther's day you did not go down to a store and buy fertilizer for your field your farm animals provided the fertilizer for your field and so your cows and Various sundry other animals sheep and things like that.

01:18:21

You picked up their dung and you pile them up and You pile them up over the winter so the next spring

01:18:30

You would then spread them on your fields to increase your yield very very important Which means that during the winter you would have piles of dung now

01:18:41

In the fall, you know how you'll get that first cold snap and stuff like that Maybe even have a little snow and then you get second summer and that warm That warm front comes through When you got piles of dung warm front pile of dung not a good thing flies

01:18:59

Smell what we used to call fresh country air fresh country air and if you're a city slicker, you may not even know what that is, but it's odiferous and It's not something you like to look at but it was a part of life you had to have it and Luther said that we in our sin are like a pile of dung

01:19:24

There's nothing attractive about a pile of dung and you don't want to bring a pile of dung into the house You don't want to bring a pile of dung into the kingdom of God Track dung across the golden streets.

01:19:38

And so what he said was Allegedly said you can't verify this in Firsthand materials, but it sounds like Luther Really does very earthy fellow was he said that?

01:19:56

We need to understand that justification is Like that first snow of winter

01:20:05

That covers everything over in that perfect blanket of white and it's beautiful and if you

01:20:14

My I don't know that my daughter could understand this having grown up in Phoenix but if you live in a

01:20:23

Place with regular snow, you know that that first snow is beautiful It hasn't been tracked through it hasn't been plowed

01:20:32

Because after the third or fourth snow you start getting all sorts of dark snow and stained snow and and It's just not as pretty as it used to be it gets a little boring after a while It's not as attractive but that first snow

01:20:50

Everything's pure He says the righteousness of Christ is like that it covers over The dunghill it doesn't change the dunghill

01:21:02

It's an alien righteousness it comes from outside and it covers over and removes the offensiveness of the dunghill

01:21:11

Which is why we can have peace with God because that that covering comes from God and is pure and is beautiful It is pleasing to God now

01:21:24

Roman Catholic apologists will say that Luther only had half the point here and that's because he was only trying to illustrate half the

01:21:30

Point here Luther was not denying the necessity and importance of sanctification He was not denying that that God's not gonna leave us as a dunghill

01:21:39

But what he was saying is our Relationship with God is dependent upon that perfect righteousness that comes from Christ Not anything that is then done in us

01:21:51

That becomes pleasing in God's sight But Catholic apologists will attack that because it's only illustrating one part because they don't believe in an imputed righteousness

01:22:03

But what they do believe in actually illustrates this very clearly and That is they believe

01:22:10

That baptism justifies by infusing grace. And so what happens is when you're baptized you are a pile of dung

01:22:17

But you become a pile of gold You become a pile of gold and gold is pleasing to God.

01:22:23

So you are intrinsically pleasing in God's sight and That's why you go to heaven

01:22:29

You become a pile of gold Now, isn't that a much better illustration? Wow, I want to be a pile of gold

01:22:38

But you can't stop it you can't stop there because you see if you commit a mortal sin a mortal sin in traditional

01:22:48

Roman Catholic theology I doubt the current Pope believes this but it's still what's taught in the dogmatic canons and decrees of the church a mortal sin destroys the grace of justification

01:23:00

So that means that pile of gold becomes a pile of dung again The problem is you don't necessarily know when that's happened to you

01:23:10

Because there's all sorts of people who got different viewpoints as to what mortal sin is. What about venial sin?

01:23:22

Because see what happens is if you commit a mortal sin you become a pile of dung you have to go back through sacrament of penance contrition penance and You can be re -justified turned back into a pile of gold sacramentally

01:23:39

But you now have flecks of dung on the surface of the gold Those are the things those are the temporal punishments for the sin

01:23:48

That's still clean your soul and that's why you have to go and do things you have to do Hail Mary's and crawl on your

01:23:54

Knees upstairs in Rome and all sorts of stuff like that well if you commit a venial sin and The difference between a mortal and venial sin can depend on the priest that you ask

01:24:07

But you commit a venial sin venial sin does not destroy the grace of justification but More flecks of dung appear on the surface of the gold

01:24:18

And that's why you need purgatory only piles of gold Go to purgatory in traditional historic

01:24:25

Roman Catholic teaching Only piles of gold you have to be in a state of grace when you die.

01:24:31

It's not a second chance salvation system. I think the current Pope would change all of that if he could but It's not as easy as it looks so What happens is

01:24:45

There needs to be a mechanism whereby the pile of gold can be purified before it enters into the presence of God There's no imputed righteousness

01:24:55

That's what purgatory is and in purgatory You have what's called

01:25:01

Satispassio Satispassio the suffering of atonement. So you are being cleansed through your own suffering

01:25:13

It's your own suffering if you want to read all about it

01:25:19

Pick up this old time 1950s Catholicism style

01:25:26

Book purgatory by FX Shoop Sj Jesuit if you really want to hear all the stories about purgatory and what it involves and the sufferings involved and the fact that historically it was an experience over time very plainly

01:25:47

That's what indulgences were all about because you see you are released from purgatory when your debt of temporal sin is paid for by suffering but that can be sped up by a

01:26:06

Transfer of merit to your account That's what an indulgence is and yes indulgences still exist

01:26:15

Even in the Universal Catholic Catechism as a Catholic Church whole sections on indulgences

01:26:21

Still a part of Roman Catholic teaching Pope Francis has granted plenary Indulgences within the past two years for walking through certain

01:26:31

Cathedral doors Go on a pilgrimage walk through a door indulgence

01:26:38

I don't know what he really thinks that means anymore, but that again, so The idea is that an indulgence is a transfer to your account of Merit where does that merit come from?

01:26:53

Well, it comes from the thesaurus meritorium the Treasury of Merit Well, where is the Treasury of Merit get its get its merit?

01:26:59

Well the Treasury of Merit developed in medieval Roman Catholicism In the idea that Jesus only needed to shed a single drop of blood to bring about the forgiveness of sins the world now, that's

01:27:14

That's not biblical. That's that's far away from a biblical understanding of the Atonement, but Rome had already developed transubstantiation and things like that by that point in time

01:27:25

And so you're far far away from Hebrews and Romans by then anyway But the idea is

01:27:31

Jesus only had to shed one drop of blood. He shed his blood copiously Therefore there's all this extra merit

01:27:38

All this extra merit and we got to put it someplace. We put it in the Treasury of Merit and when you are a saint when you die

01:27:47

With more merit than you have temporal punishment You're a saint You don't have to go to purgatory

01:27:56

Your scales are on the right side. And so your extra merit goes into the Treasury of Merit.

01:28:01

And of course you got Mary Mary has lots of extra merit because Mary does not sin and Mary does all these wonderful things

01:28:10

And so the Treasury of Merit is a mixed merit. It's a merit of Jesus, Mary, and all the saints and It's under the control the keys of Peter, the church

01:28:21

Therefore you have the concept of indulgences. And so you can be released from the sufferings of purgatory through indulgence

01:28:31

People obtaining indulgences for you here back on earth as well as people having masses said for you because mass is a perpetuatory sacrifice

01:28:37

It's not a perfecting sacrifice, but it's a perpetuatory sacrifice And so many people in medieval

01:28:43

Catholicism would leave much of their money to the church Which is why the church got so stinking rich so that masses would be said for them after they died so that they could be

01:28:53

Released from purgatory because the stories that you read about in here is there were many Popes that people saw in purgatory

01:29:01

The Pope in purgatory if the Pope's in purgatory and still in purgatory hundreds of years after he died suffering

01:29:07

How long are you gonna be there? How long are you gonna be there? long time long time

01:29:14

All of this I've often said that the debate that I did with Peter Stravinsky's on Long Island Was one of the best illustrations of Just how vastly different The gospel message is between Rome and the

01:29:32

New Testament It was clearer than the debates we did on justification it really was

01:29:38

I Didn't expect that when I walked into that room that night, but that's what came about And if you just go to YouTube and put in Stravinsky's Peter Stravinsky's is not happy about this.

01:29:52

I can assure you but the first thing up on YouTube is our debate and There is a shorter

01:30:00

Version where we discuss first Corinthians chapter 3. I was actually gonna play it for you, but I have gone so stinking long

01:30:07

That I'll just let you look it up. We actually posted From the cross -examination. I think it's seven minutes seven and a half minutes something like that The cross -examination we went through first Corinthians chapter 3 that was one of the clearest illustrations of and If you want if you want to go well, that was just Stravinsky's, you know

01:30:28

Two PhDs from Ivy League schools. Listen to the beginning of our debate where the Roman Catholic guy is introducing this

01:30:37

Stravinsky's I Mean if that guy wasn't prepared for a debate nobody would be Hundreds of articles written multiple

01:30:44

PhDs. I'm just some some Baptist, right? Yeah, well

01:30:50

Listen to the cross -examination first Corinthians chapter 3 and if you want to dismiss Stravinsky's Then listen to the dividing line program

01:31:01

Where we add Tim Staples of Catholic answers on to debate purgatory and The same thing happens there

01:31:12

Once you get into the text position falls apart Because the the

01:31:17

Apostles had no concept of this and most Roman Catholic theologians and historians Recognize this is a development over time that really did not come into its final form until Well Council of Florence dogmatically

01:31:34

So the 1400s, but you can find it a little bit earlier than that In a fairly full form, but it was multiple threads that ended up being

01:31:44

Tied together into the modern doctrine of purgatory Which continues in the dogmatic teachings of the church

01:31:53

Unless they find a way of wiping them out will always be there Even though the weirdness is

01:32:01

I would say it's fairly obvious That the current Pope even though he granted indulgences

01:32:08

I Doesn't believe any of this stuff not in the way that it was that not in the way that the people who

01:32:17

Dogmatized it believed it. You can always just redefine things over time. I suppose there's

01:32:26

There's purgatory. Okay, so let's go back to these guys Second premise is that many of the

01:32:32

Saints on earth who will later enter into heaven are at the moment of their deaths

01:32:38

Attached to sin or sinning indeed Thirdly since nothing unclean can enter heaven

01:32:44

Including a person who is attached to sin it follows that something must happen to them before they enter into heaven

01:32:52

That will remove their attachment to sin and this is okay. So do you see why the imputed righteousness of Christ?

01:33:01

remember remember when sprawl when RC said, you know We keep using all these different phrases to try to differentiate things and that we should call ourselves

01:33:13

Imputationists remember that I was toward the end of his life and a few people picked up on it But what he was touching on there is this is really where the issue is because this is what separates us from a lot of Wesleyans a lot of Armenians Vast majority of liberals.

01:33:29

That's why penal substitutionary atonement is under attack this whole idea All the new perspectivists they have to get rid of all this stuff

01:33:37

You notice I pressed Doug on this issue because there was issues with Federal Vision on the concept of imputation and he affirmed the imputation of the righteousness of Christ very clearly

01:33:50

But what is the basis of our peace with God?

01:33:58

Why do you have peace with God? When you wake up in the morning, why don't you fear the wrath of God knowing your own heart?

01:34:05

I know my own heart I know the abiding sin So why don't

01:34:11

I fear the wrath of God? Is it just some sort of hubris on my part many people would say yes, and if knowing your own heart and your own sin

01:34:23

You don't recognize that you need to have a perfect standing before God that is hubris the imputed

01:34:31

Righteousness of Christ the great exchange 2nd Corinthians chapter 5. He has made sin.

01:34:39

I Receive his righteousness a beautiful positive righteousness He fulfills the law in my place.

01:34:47

He gives his life in my place That's why you have peace with God Rome doesn't have that It's not there.

01:34:56

So what you're hearing is well, there's this attachment to sin Except I have a sin -bearer and so the idea of a needed secondary cleansing after death

01:35:13

Yeah, Rome has to come up with something like that because they don't have the imputed righteousness of Christ They they abandoned the gospel a long time ago on that subject but when

01:35:24

Protestants Start pushing purgatory as Protestants have recently you notice who they are

01:35:30

Wesleyan Armenians Now Wesley would throw a hissy fit but what has the leftward turn that they have taken which recognizes a substitutionary atonement and Penal substitutionary atonement are reformed concepts.

01:35:47

They moved away from that and therefore that makes sense There's attachment there needs to be a cleansing

01:35:52

Great because you don't have the imputed righteousness of Christ You don't have the full -throated consistent understanding of Romans chapter 8 who will bring a charge against God's elect.

01:36:05

It's Christ who died He is at the right hand. We have an intercessor So, why does there need to be another work other than his work?

01:36:15

This is where the dividing line folks is. This is what the issue is all about This is what we have to continue debating

01:36:27

We can't just go. Yeah, you know We could really use those conservative Roman Catholics on our side.

01:36:32

So we just need to just put all this stuff aside. No, we can't We can't we have to pray that the

01:36:41

Lord would Show them the need that they have for a perfect righteousness

01:36:47

That the partial righteousness that Rome offers them is not enough is not enough the church calls purgatory

01:36:53

So you can think of purgatory as the final rush of your sanctification So when

01:36:59

Christ saves us we come into relationship with Christ that when we aren't automatically sanctified and when

01:37:06

Christ saves us, you know, it's It's not a it's not a sort of fiction. He doesn't sort of say now, where does he get the term fiction?

01:37:15

he's getting term fiction because Rome says that our understanding of justification

01:37:20

The imputation of the righteous Christ that that's the whole thing about The snow and the dunghill it's a fiction

01:37:30

God's treating you as if you're something you're really not See, it's a fiction Imputation like it's a mine.

01:37:37

This is this is what the whole text is all about That's where the fiction comes from in the language that is used in there

01:37:44

Sanctified and we don't have to do the hard work by responding to his grace in becoming sanctified And so as we so see the difference between positional sanctification and experiential sanctification

01:37:54

You have been made holy in Christ. You have his righteousness and then in this life

01:38:00

He is living out his life in you and you are Desirous of being holy and putting to death sin and so on so forth.

01:38:07

So you have the position in Christ and the result of that then is

01:38:14

Our desire to live in such a way that is honor to God and experiential sanctification

01:38:21

If you don't get justification, right and Rome doesn't then you get the endless treadmill of Penances Sacraments that you have within Roman Catholicism When our

01:38:33

Christian walk we might find that we begin to turn away from sins that we were engaged in the past We might grow in virtue because of the grace of God But if we're not fully sanctified

01:38:42

We're going to need to be and God makes that happen for us if we will be saved prior to us entering heaven here's an analogy if You Cameron and I were walking into a house and we were all muddy from hanging out at the creek and I said

01:38:57

Nobody enters that house unless they are clean and you will enter that house and you know that you're dirty

01:39:04

Then you know that something has to happen before you enter that house So you could think of it as sort of like the so you're watching this fellow he's he's going how am

01:39:14

I gonna answer this? How am I gonna respond? That's that's the look on the face. That's that's that's that's what

01:39:19

I think You're not process before entering the house. And again, this is all a grace from God Now as far as does this take any temporal duration the church hasn't actually commented on that No, that's

01:39:33

I'm sorry That That is that's what Stravinska said too and that's just simply historically bogus it's historically bogus

01:39:44

Anyone reading the documents of the church up until Minimally the 20th century

01:39:51

Knows that's not true. Just look at the scapular Look at the promise wearing the scapular

01:40:00

The promise was given that Mary would descend into purgatory on the

01:40:05

Saturday after your death to remove you from the pains of purgatory if you wore the scapular if you were wearing the scapular when you

01:40:11

Died on the Saturday after your death What's that?

01:40:18

That's a temporal progression all the indulgences were measured in days days in what in purgatory

01:40:27

I I mean Just just read this and then listen to the modern apologists and go.

01:40:33

Yeah, there's no there's that's a huge You're you're it's sort of like New Agers today that that try to promote

01:40:41

New Age ism amongst the West and they just remove all The Hindu stuff that we don't like from all of it because we wouldn't we wouldn't do any of that stuff.

01:40:48

Anyways That's that's the same thing here. No, there was very plainly very clearly a

01:40:55

Strong temporal aspect. Yes, the modern church wants to try to de -emphasize that But yeah, that was that was there all along I have said speculated that this might take a sort of certain amount of time

01:41:08

But other people such as Pope Benedict the 16th when he was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger He said that it may just be the encountering of God's love which strips us of our impurities

01:41:22

In an instant and enables us to behold so you'll get some of these people that said that actually described purgatory as being

01:41:28

God loves the hell out of us He loves the hell out of us So we get embraced by divine love and the last attachments to sin.

01:41:38

They're broken and that's what purgatory is. Well again If you want to present that now just don't pretend that's what the

01:41:45

Council of Florence believed Don't pretend that's what the Council of Trent believed just admit we've changed

01:41:51

We used to believe that there were people who gave their last farthing and Starved to death to buy indulgences because they felt that their loved ones were still suffering in purgatory because of the church's teachings about the temporality of that suffering that happened in history, but they were wrong and The church was wrong to do that.

01:42:14

Just be just be upfront about it. Just be straightforward about it I mean, this is this is not even debatable.

01:42:20

You you would not want to try to debate this one. I Cannot imagine a single Roman Catholic apologist who would actually debate that the church never gave a temporal indication

01:42:30

The only thing you do is that well, maybe in a dogmatic statement. No Too easy to prove this one.

01:42:37

No one would ever pick would ever take that challenge. It's just too easy God, so that's that's something

01:42:42

I think Protestants should be open to Yeah, what do you think purgatory so there's a philosopher that I really really like he's a

01:42:49

Protestant Jerry Walls Bing bing bing bing bing. That's the exact person I talked about look up Jerry Walls in the archives the dividing line we talked about his collapse on this very issue and here's a good example of a philosopher whose theology is just non -existent and Therefore you get this.

01:43:06

He actually wrote a book. He wrote he co -wrote the book that I gave you or I showed you earlier It's basically a whole thing against Catholic teaching but he's a

01:43:14

Protestant who believes in purgatory And so he has a very interesting argument for that which is basically along the same lines as what you just gave so I find that pretty

01:43:23

I'm definitely open to that to sanctification being a process rather than something that just sort of happens

01:43:29

This is what happens when you pretend to be a Protestant and you don't know what you believe

01:43:35

You just don't know what you believe you don't you don't know the history you don't know what their information was about Yeah, I'm open that I'm open to that.

01:43:47

So sad so sad. I as an apologist theology determines apologetics

01:43:57

You have to know what you're presenting to people and a gospel that Does not have at its center the finished work of Christ And a gospel that does not give you peace

01:44:14

Isn't a gospel worth presenting to anybody anybody at all So I say what

01:44:19

I'm gonna do I Still have this up.

01:44:25

So let's Let's finish up because I was gonna go back to the

01:44:30

Jay Dyer thing. I don't have time to do that I went long on all of this This is a

01:44:37

YouTube you know what the resolution on our YouTube version is 480

01:44:43

That's how that was 19 years ago as VHS. In fact, didn't you?

01:44:49

You were there right and you didn't you? Do the like the subtitles and stuff like that That night and handed it to Stravinskas Yeah, yeah

01:45:02

We actually for a while went through that torture and dragging all that equipment around and and everything else

01:45:11

Ugly very ugly But Can you

01:45:17

I'll keep that center there. Can you make that work? What I'm gonna do is

01:45:25

I'm gonna go ahead and attach I'm gonna go ahead and play this and And this is the cross -examination period between myself and father

01:45:32

Peter Stravinskas, dr. Peter Stravinskas to Ivy League PhDs editor of the

01:45:39

Catholic answer hundreds of articles taught in If if he can't provide a

01:45:47

Catholic answer Then no one's gonna be able to write a Catholic answer This was from 2001

01:45:53

I think I Think was 2001 so about 19 years ago We've been dealing with this subject for a long long time and unlike our erstwhile

01:46:05

Protestant friend, we know what we believe about this issue this subject and Even though Stravinskas is not exactly an ultra conservative on these matters as you will see by his answers

01:46:18

I want you to listen to The cross -examination from that debate and then we'll do as soon as it ends just go straight into the into the close

01:46:26

So I won't have any comments or anything after that. I will try to not have any comments at that point

01:46:33

But let's let's let's listen to what happens here first Corinthians chapter 3 beginning at verse 10

01:46:43

What is your understanding who is being discussed? Contextually in this passage

01:46:49

Starting at first well just in in first Corinthians chapter 3 in general for example when it says

01:46:58

Let let a man be verse verse 10 But let each one look to how he builds upon it who is who is being who is being discussed here.

01:47:08

Is this All Saints is this Christian leaders Is this only who are those is it not

01:47:14

Saints but those who have to go to purgatory before they become Saints what? How do you understand it? Well Paul is talking about himself as the as the architect who laid the foundation, correct?

01:47:25

and The process of the the planting of the gospel being done by various people.

01:47:31

Mm -hmm so specifically the context then is referring to People who are involved in building the church.

01:47:39

Let them be careful how they build upon the foundation. I've laid we would agree with that Okay Then when he goes on to talk about this

01:47:47

Building upon the foundation with gold silver precious stones wood hay and stubble

01:47:53

What do you understand those words to refer to please? Well, he's referring and notice he changes the pronoun at that point to you

01:48:02

Which is to say the cooperation of the believer in the work of the construction of the edifice

01:48:11

Actually, he uses the indefinite there, but if anyone builds verse 12 tests is used there

01:48:17

So what does what do these things refer to them the gold silver precious stones wood hay stubble, what are those?

01:48:23

one's individual gifts talents, etc or the the lack thereof the the non -use of of these things so that I if I have a

01:48:36

Talent that's gold and instead I I don't use it. Is that perhaps straw being introduced into the edifice?

01:48:44

Okay When it refers to the day revealing making manifest these works

01:48:54

That are being built upon the foundation that there is going to be an apocalypsis is the actual term that it'll be apocalyptic by fire

01:49:04

Is it your belief that what is being referred to here is purgatorial sufferings in regards to temporal punishments of sins?

01:49:12

I think first of all he's talking about the day of the Lord coming into the life of the individual and Furthermore the

01:49:22

Individuals participation in that day of the Lord. Do you believe that what is being referred to in verse 13?

01:49:33

when it refers to the fire shall reveal it and Each one's work of what sort it is.

01:49:40

The fire will test That this is the fire of purgatory Well, first of all, the the church does not teach the precise nature of purgatory

01:49:52

And so I would say that this is a metaphor here as is the church's use of the metaphor of fire for purgatory has the church used this passage as a

01:50:03

Substantiation for the existence of purgatory as an indication of the primitive belief in purgatory

01:50:09

Yes, so if the primitive writers believed in purgatory and if the church has pointed to this

01:50:17

Then can we not ask concerning the nature? Not the physical nature, but the fact that this fire reveals of what sort works are

01:50:28

Would it not have to sir if it's supportive of the concept of purgatory?

01:50:33

Would it not have to in this passage refer to some sort of suffering and some sort of cleansing of temporal punishments of sins not merely the demonstration of whether a church leaders

01:50:46

Motivations were pure whether his works were gold or whether they were strong elation is in itself a form of catharsis or purification so revelation in testing is

01:50:59

Involving purification. Um, is that what you just indicated? if you reveal my flaws to me

01:51:10

That revelation in and of itself can be purifying those who built with gold silver and precious stones

01:51:21

Also go through this fire Where is there any concept of these individuals needing this purification

01:51:30

Before they enter into the presence of God does it not say that that they actually receive a reward that there's nothing here concerning They're needing this purification well,

01:51:44

I think it's it's the simple realization that even the just man sins seven times a day and therefore the need for purification for the for for most people so Where in the text do you have?

01:51:57

This mixture where you have people who have gold silver precious stones And they have a little wood hay and straw burned and that's their purification

01:52:05

Where where does that is that derived from from the text? I'm missing your point

01:52:10

Well, you just indicated the just man sin seven times. So it sounded like you were Asserting that even those who built with with gold silver and precious stones

01:52:21

That they themselves are undergoing some sort of purification here. The only thing the text says is they receive a reward

01:52:30

And the others do not What is their reward? What rewards are given in purgatory?

01:52:37

heaven But they both get heaven. So the the one gets something the other doesn't get in this text

01:52:44

What is it? Where does it say? The other doesn't get anything verse 15 But if a certain words ones works are consumed he shall suffer a loss yet He himself shall be saved yet.

01:52:54

So as by fire. He doesn't receive a misthoss. He does not receive a reward So if the rewards heaven, then this can't be purgatory because this ends up in hell.

01:53:09

I Don't see that I'm sorry Okay. Well, no, no, no, let's let's be respectful everyone.

01:53:15

Let's see if we can work through this this this fact of the matter is both these groups

01:53:21

Experienced the same testing by fire But the ones who have their works remain which they have built upon the foundation verse 14 says

01:53:32

Mithon, Lamphsitai, they shall receive a reward a misthoss but if Another one has their works which they have built which were made of wood hay and straw

01:53:44

Burned up consumed they shall suffer loss yet. They shall be saved yet. So as through fire

01:53:51

So if this is the fire of purgatory both experienced that one gets reward if that's heaven, what are the other people get?

01:53:57

Do you see the point? You're saying the ones whose works are burnt up get the reward. No, they don't get any reward

01:54:03

That's what it says. They suffer loss as a meow means to suffer a loss of something if it is burnt down He will be the loser and though he has saved himself.

01:54:11

It will be as if one who has gone through fire Wow, that's a fascinating translation