March 3, 2021 Show with Roger Salter on “A Man Called ‘Luther’ & a Man Called ‘Erasmus'”

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this third day of March 2021.

I'm thrilled to have back on the program a dear friend of mine who has become one of my very favorite guests to interview.

His name is Roger Salter, and he is rector of St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama.

Today we are going to be addressing a man called Luther and a man named

Erasmus, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Roger Salter.

Very blessed to be with you. Amen, and I am blessed to have you on the program again.

Tell our listeners, for those of our listeners especially who are hearing about you for the first time, tell them about St.

Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama. I'll do so with a bit of shorthand,

Chris. We are an Anglican congregation that at the moment, in terms of affiliation, is independent.

And again, not to be too expansive, we are Cranmerian in our theology.

We adhere to the 39 Articles. We use for our liturgy, our worship, a contemporary version of 1662 prayer book.

And it's very much that we are part of a minority in the

Anglican Communion. Probably numerically now, the evangelical wing is the largest portion of the

Anglican Communion, but it's a very general and, if I could say so, fairly superficial evangelicalism, which is a way of saying, well, we're not

Anglo -Catholic and we're not liberal. But we belong to that very small group or sector that uphold the doctrines of the

Reformation. And again, I'm going to use the term that a lot of people say we shouldn't employ, but we are

Calvinistic in the Augustinian sense. We believe in the sovereignty of grace.

We believe in the helplessness of man and the divine determination for God to save his people, chosen from all eternity.

But we believe also that the gospel is addressed to all. The invitation is whosoever will may come.

So we hold those two aspects of the divine mission of mercy together.

Yes, the issue of whosoever will may come is the answer to, or should

I say the question to ask when you are having a friendly dispute with someone who rejects

Reformed theology and Calvinism, who may claim that a Calvinist doesn't believe that.

The question to ask them is, but who will come? Why did you come and your very sweet, pious, religious next -door neighbor, who maybe have led a very moral and godly life living next door, she may be even in her 90s, why hasn't she yet come to Christ?

And we could go on and on with that division in the body of Christ.

And even though I don't know of a single Arminian who would admit to saying this out loud, but really their only answer could be logically and consistently, well,

I was more humble than my neighbor. I was more aware of my sinfulness than my neighbor.

I was more in tune with God than my neighbor. I was more involved in Bible reading.

You could go on and on and on with the answers, but they always leave one with the clear understanding that the person is in some way innately better than his neighbor.

Exactly. I think that's a very convincing point of view, Chris, because it's saying that the person who is a believer has something to their credit, and therefore our salvation is not entirely and exclusively of God.

So it's working on that unfair principle that some people are better than others, and we're all as hopeless as each other in this matter of our sinfulness and our estrangement from God.

And not that I want to derail our subject today, but when you were speaking about your current independence as an

Anglican church, it is, I'm sure for you as it is for me, frustrating to watch the spectrum of denominations across the world and perhaps especially here in the

United States, where you finally have seen something wonderful come about amongst these various groups, and then you see them returning to the very sins that required their existence to begin with.

I'm thinking of the Reformed Episcopal Church, which started in the 19th century as a reaction to the

Oxford movement, the Romish wing of Anglicanism, the

Anglo -Catholic wing that began to rise in prominence, and you have the

Reformed Episcopal Church was formed for the very reason of combating that, of giving a

Protestant answer to that, giving a confessionally Reformed answer to that, and now you have, and I don't want to broad brush the

Reformed Episcopal Church, I have friends and acquaintances who I highly regard in that denomination,

I've interviewed people in that denomination from their clergy, etc., but you have them returning to the very thing that they were opposed to.

You have many in their ranks being very sacerdotal and Romish in their understanding of the gospel, of the sacraments, and so on, and you have in the

Southern Baptist Convention, they cleaned house years ago, decades ago, and when liberalism had dominated, or at least came close to dominating the denomination, the

Bible -believing conservatives and fundamentalists came in, and God used them to eradicate all remnants, it seemed, of leftism and apostasy, and now you have them once again returning in the woke movement to the dangerous left side of things.

And it's just mind -boggling, not only in the woke movement, but this would actually be a part of the woke movement,

I guess, but the softening of opposition to homosexuality, and on and on.

It's just discouraging, and we have that with the Anglican groups, where perhaps you were waiting very enthusiastically, thinking that you could join yourself to a group that seemed to be committed to biblical orthodoxy and historic

Protestant Anglicanism, and then all of a sudden you see them changing. Am I right? Absolutely, Chris.

I mean, it's a matter of, not of pride or of criticism, but of confessional integrity.

I think you can only sign up to a membership of an organization if you agree with their fundamental theological stance, and in certain details.

And, to be honest, from my perspective, and I'm still a minister of the

Church of England, from my perspective, I cannot see any affiliation at the moment, or new development, that actually adheres to the

Word of God, strictly speaking. I mean, the Scriptures are strictly speaking the very

Word of God. There seem to be ways in which certain issues can be dodged, or toned down, or even ignored.

And I think that some of the issues that are glossed over are absolutely fundamental to the life and mission of the

Church. I don't see how you can preach the Gospel where certain tenets are optional.

So I feel that one has to be very careful that there is almost a total degree of wholeheartedness in your commitment to a particular expression of the

Church. And I want to give our listeners the two websites that I have for you, and for St.

Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama. If anyone wants to find out more about this church, and about Roger himself, you can go to stm, which is an abbreviation for St.

Matthew's, stm as in Matthew, anglican .weebly .com, that's stmanglican .weebly

.com, and you can also go to rogersalter .com, rogersalter .com,

and his last name is not spelled like the hymn book of the Hebrew Scriptures.

There's no P in his last name, it's S -A -L -T -E -R, rogersalter .com.

Well, you have picked quite a fascinating theme today to discuss, a man called

Luther, and a man named Erasmus. Luther hardly needs any introduction to the average listener of Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio, although I must say there are many misconceptions and legends and myths that perpetuate about Luther, even from very fine men and denominations and pulpits.

But if you could introduce our listeners to, in an abbreviated fashion obviously, to who

Luther was, and perhaps give a little more time to a name which, especially for newer

Christians perhaps, may be a lot less familiar. That's Erasmus.

Perhaps you'll need to spend a little bit more time letting us know who Erasmus is, but if you could. Okay, well

I think we can unfold this character description gradually through some of the points to be made,

Chris. And my subject was suggested to me by re -reading

Luther's great work, his favorite work that he ever produced,

The Bondage of the Will, and in particular the translation of J .I. Packer and, oh gosh, it was there a moment ago,

O .R. Johnson. These two men translated Luther's work in the 50s, and it was published by James Clark, the well -known

Scottish publisher. And I read it years ago and found that I couldn't sit still while I was reading it.

It was so energizing and striking and powerful to read Luther, Luther's best work that he most wanted to survive of all his writings.

And I thought it's about time I reintroduced myself to it, to my third reading in the past few weeks.

And again, the same effect. I'm absolutely stirred to the core of my being by the teaching and writing of Martin Luther, and as to how richly scriptural it is, and how

Luther's position on the enslavement of the human world to sin and opposition to God is just so obvious as he expounds this key truth as to why we need salvation.

My great concern in our time is we preach a salvation, but we don't tell people why they need it.

And we have a very superficial view of sin and exposition of sin, and so therefore the grace of God is not magnified to the extent that it should be.

And we're not clinging to the mercy of God purely on the basis of his goodness and compassion.

We've always got this notion that somehow we have to win God's approval. We have to stay in his good books when we can't even put an initial in his good books, let alone our names.

And so I thought of a man called Luther, because Luther was uniquely called of God for the recovery of the true gospel in his time.

And a man named Erasmus, who was the most famous European scholar and literary figure in that same period, or the early 16th century, a man of tremendous reputation and revered throughout all the nations of the continent.

He was the great name, as it were, in the

Catholic Church of the day. He was a monk, but he was fairly relaxed as a believer, didn't have firm convictions about very much, except that we should imitate the virtues and meritorious aspects of Christ's being and life.

I don't think he had much of a grasp of human helplessness and divine salvation at all, but he was a great literary figure and lauded all over Europe.

And for a while he approved of Luther stirring things up in the Catholic Church, but Luther's reforms went way beyond ceremony and clericalism, some of the superstitious approach to religion in the church at the time.

And so Luther felt bound to advocate the gospel more forcefully, and people encouraged

Erasmus to debate with him, which he did in his diatribe, which means discussion on these issues.

But really Erasmus only half -heartedly contended with Luther, because the doctrine was beyond his comprehension.

He didn't have that spiritual depth of understanding and insight that Luther, who deferred to him as a scholar and the greater man, actually possessed, because it goes back to that calling from God.

Luther was introduced to his helplessness and his desperate need of God.

Erasmus probably never ever felt the kind of despair, self -despair, that a sinner ought to experience.

So that's why I put it in this order. A man called Luther and a man named

Erasmus. So a reformer and a man of great fame coming into conflict over the doctrine,

I think, that is expounded in Luther's book, The Bondage of the Will, which is the fundamental outline of the whole purpose and plan of salvation and our absolute need of divine grace and its wonderful effects in the life of the people of God.

So Luther, who was regarded by officialdom as an outrageous rebel and fiery extremist, and Erasmus, your calm, respectable intellectual who everybody admired and deferred to, this was quite a clash, a classic clash.

And I feel that this great work that Luther, again, wanted to survive and endure, way beyond the extent of the relevance of his other writings,

I think it is the foundation document of the Reformation. I can't say that as a scholar.

I'm not a scholar. It's a personal conviction. When I read that book, I think it gives you pure gospel that ought to be the basis of every

Christian confession, both in terms of denominations or affiliations and of individual believers.

Now, centuries before them, before Luther and Erasmus, we had a tension between two great figures in the

Church that in some ways, I believe, was a precursor to what later developed with Luther and Erasmus, the tension and the opposition that existed between Augustine of Hippo and Pelagius.

I think that there are very similar issues at hand in both of their disputes, centuries apart, even though the

Roman Catholic Church condemned Pelagius and regards him to this day as a heretic, but in the 21st century and perhaps long before, you could barely distinguish the apologetic and the theology of your average

Roman Catholic who has some, at least, cursory knowledge of the

Catholic Church and what to believe and how to live. You can barely distinguish that from a full -blown

Pelagian, can you? That's right. That's right, Chris. I mean, the practical theology and attitude of Catholicism has been largely semi -Pelagian at best, but there's always been a distinct line of devout

Augustinians in the pre -Reformational Church, men who stood firm on what we call these days the doctrines of grace.

They were the heirs of Augustine. They preserved his teaching well and very powerfully in the pre -Reformational

Church, and they were a tremendous influence on the Reformers themselves, of course, who were nurtured as Catholics, and both

Luther and Calvin, second to Augustine, quoted

Bernard of Clairvaux more than any other church father or pre -Reformational figure, and there are some astoundingly great men of God down that sort of line of the church fathers through the medieval era until the dawn of the

Reformation who were very firm on the doctrines of human inability and divine election, and they contributed a great deal to the understanding of the

Reformers, particularly in the English Church, which became very

Augustinian in the sense of its interpretation of Scripture. It's Scripture that matters most, but as somebody said, it was

Paul who said it and it was Augustine who read it, and it was through Augustine principally that these doctrines were conserved and expounded, and then through that line of thinkers who adhered to Augustine's great thoughts on this matter.

So, you know, I'm thinking not only of contention over this recurring controversy in the life of the

Church, but I'm thinking too that the conflict between, say, Luther and Erasmus or Augustine and Pelagius is not merely personal but typical, that the very essence of the

Church's calling and proclamation is this idea of the helplessness of man, his inability to enable himself to be approved of God and restored to Him, and the absolute necessity of divine mercy in our recovery to God.

So the Church, in a sense, is governed by these two moods. The mood of Luther, absolute dependence upon God and the

Gospel. The mood of Erasmus, a certain amount of human virtue, of knowledge, of moral effort, contributing to our standing before God.

And this powerful sense of total commitment to the

Gospel of Jesus Christ and the expounding of His work and meaning and significance, and this rather lackadaisical view towards sin, and this coziness with very superficial religion.

And I think these are the two prevailing forces in the Church of our time. The mood of Luther or the attitude of Erasmus.

People probably are not aware of these two figures or fountainheads, but they adopt either one of those attitudes.

All out for the Gospel and energetic in believing and proclaiming it, or indifferent to the essentials.

And the Church is some sort of religious institution where we don't have to be too specific about doctrine.

We can be very relaxed about what people believe. And in fact, it's almost a matter of self -salvation, with the human decision taking priority over the will of God.

Well, we have to get to our first station break right now, if anybody has a question for Roger Sulter.

On this issue we are discussing, a man called

Luther and a man named Erasmus, and the theological conflict that exists even to this day in the 21st century, that has never been resolved in any meaningful way between the

Church of Rome and Biblical Protestantism. If you have a question, our email address is chrisanzen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. Don't go away, we'll be right back with Roger Sulter of St.

Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama, and more of our discussion on a man called

Luther and a man named Erasmus, right after these messages from our sponsors. I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

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to find out more information. historicalbiblesociety .org We are now back with our guest today,

Roger Salter, the Rector at St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama.

And we are discussing the theme, A Man Called Luther and a Man Named Erasmus. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. So just to recap the importance of this topic,

Roger, not only the first dispute centuries before Luther and Erasmus were born between Augustine and Pelagius, where Pelagius was denying the taint of Adam's sin, the inheritance of Adam's sin from the moment of conception, also known as Original Sin.

He was denying that, and he was also denying the necessity, the requirement of grace in order to leave a human with free will to believe in and embrace

Christ and be joined to his church, etc. And then, of course, centuries later you have

Erasmus as a Catholic not defending that extreme version of the freedom of man and the lack of a requirement of grace.

Erasmus would have believed in the necessity of grace but not the sufficiency of grace.

And what this all boils down to is that the tension, the dispute, the divide between Roman Catholicism and Biblical Protestantism, historical

Reformational Protestantism, is that the Reformed, those who today would be, this teaching would be more clearly seen amongst those who are theologically

Reformed and Calvinistic, is that we owe 100 % of the praise, honor, and glory to God for our salvation, whereas those outside of the

Reformed faith, even within Protestantism, may claim that. They may claim, I owe all the credit,

I give all the credit to God for my salvation. They may say that, but their theology and their belief systems do not logically and consistently prove that out.

They always wind up believing that man takes a part of the credit for his or her salvation.

Am I right? Absolutely, Chris. I mean, the two debates that we've mentioned,

Augustine, Pelagius, Luther, Erasmus, are representative of the fundamental disagreement and debate that really matters in Christendom.

This is the key issue that determines as to whether our faith is authentic, that the life of the church with which we're associated is authentic and genuine and in union with the will of God and the grace of Christ.

And in these two men especially, we witness the classic encounter of minds that wrestle together in the life of the visible people of God.

You know, one agrees with Wycliffe's definition of the church, the entire community or number of those predestined to life.

And so this is a clash between spiritual understanding and the comprehension of the natural mind concerning the things of God, which don't really consider the things of God as an urgent priority.

But the question is, as you put it, Chris, who is it that saves the sinner?

Is it man himself by his own powers and virtue, which is what

Erasmus would contend, at least in his book, The Diatribe, which he was really unwilling to write.

But it's an issue of whether salvation is wrought through man and God in collaboration or God alone.

You know, it's salvation of the Lord. And I've got this quote in front of me from Luther, if I have your permission to read it,

Chris. Oh, of course. Well, this is his review of Erasmus' preface.

And he says, For the first, God has surely promised his grace to the humbled, that is, to those who mourn over and despair of themselves.

But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled till he realizes that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsels, efforts, will, and works, and depends absolutely on the will, counsel, pleasure, and work of another,

God alone. As long as he is persuaded that he can make even the smallest contribution to his salvation, he remains self -confident and does not utterly despair of himself and so is not humbled before God, but plans out for himself, or at least hopes and longs for, a position, an occasion, a work which shall bring him final salvation.

But he who is out of doubt that his destiny depends entirely on the will of God, despairs entirely of himself, chooses nothing for himself, but waits for God to work in him, and such a man is very near to grace for his salvation.

Some of these truths are published for the sake of the elect, that they may be humbled and brought down to nothing, and so saved.

The rest of men resist this humiliation. Indeed, they condemn the teaching of self -despair.

They want little something less that they can do for themselves. Secretly they continue proud and enemies of the grace of God.

This, I repeat, is one reason that those who fear God might in humility comprehend, claim, and receive his gracious promise.

We have to become absolutely spiritually destitute before God and paupers before him in terms of righteousness and any claim on his goodness.

So self -despair, not despair of God or mercy, but self -despair is essential,

I think, to a clear understanding of the grace of God and the nature of salvation.

So I think that Scripture brings us to that point in showing how enslaved we are to our appetites, our affections, our pride, which are presented to us by the evil one, by the world, and are evident within us by our own lusts and affections.

And so it's this particular struggle and on which side of the issue we stand that shapes the nature and the action and the outreach of the

Church. We can soon get an idea of the temper of the Church by whether it is urgent in preaching the gospel or whether it is a little bit like Erasmus in his personal attitude, a bit laid back on these most important issues.

Well, we have a listener, Bruce, in Hoover, Alabama, who says, Thank you, Chris and Roger, for this wonderful program and deeply needed discussion.

I happen to completely agree with Luther's premise on bondage of the will.

And per that premise, I, the sinful man Bruce, believe I am completely incapable of myself, by myself, of recognizing and accepting any gospel truth, be it not for the work and enlightenment of the

Holy Spirit. That said, my question related to this topic concerns prayer. What advice can you give us as to how can all, or any of us, utter praises,

I'm sorry, utter prayers to God that are more than typical religious meanderings or pronouncements of self -righteous people or long lists of entitled people or impatient demands of people who wonder what

God is doing? How, then, should we prepare for and approach prayer? Thank you, both

Roger and Chris, for your advice and thoughts on this. Keep charging. Best regards, Bruce from Hoover, Alabama.

So, I'm assuming, since you are a big fan of the Book of Common Prayer, maybe that has some answer for guidance in this question?

It certainly does, Chris. It's a thoroughly Augustinian manual of doctrine and devotion.

We start from that point of our utter helplessness and our utter independence upon God to even move one centimeter in His direction in a sincere and genuine way.

And I think we have to start not always with the same formula of words, but I think certainly, and I add to this concept that I'm trying to expound, the

Lord's Prayer, of course, is the pattern for prayer, which makes us totally dependent upon Him and totally obligated to Him in terms of our loving obedience.

But I think that we start from the basis that we have no entitlement, no room for negotiation with God, and the three key words in any prayer or approach to God is,

Lord, have mercy, because it's a matter of pure mercy alone.

That casts us into the, at the very feet of a sovereign

God, knowing that we have His invitation to pray that prayer if we are moved by the

Holy Spirit to utter it before God. But it's this matter of, again, wholesome self -despair.

I can do nothing. Without me, you can do nothing, says Jesus to His disciples.

Not even have the right attitude or the right inclination of will. It is just simply, we are utterly impotent.

And John Duncan, the great Scottish churchman and thinker and theologian, used to say, it is that very concept of your inability that causes you to pray, because it creates within you that reaching out to God for the most fundamental element of help that you need, just calling upon Him.

Nobody does that without the work of the Holy Spirit, not in a salvific sense.

And so what we're dealing with here is this attitude among the so -called people of God that we function on self -help or some help that is divine or helplessness and utter dependence upon God.

And I think that is the basis of all prayer. We're casting ourselves before the

God of all power and mercy without any entitlement to a favourable hearing, let alone a favourable answer.

But God pledges this to His people, whom He stirs up to pray with genuineness and sincerity.

So I think that's the starting point, at least, to Bruce's very telling question, that our prayer life needs to be reviewed and renewed so often, because it is, as he says, sometimes these mindless meanderings, as if our prayer even isn't penetrating to our thick, dead skulls.

We're just reciting something to ourselves, our wishes, our preferences.

And even our prayer is not subject to the will or the sovereignty of God. It is self -seeking in a religious and a falsely religious way, our own self -interest.

So it's very hard. That's why we need the Holy Spirit to refine and edit our prayers, and the

Saviour as our advocate to present them before the throne. There's just so much here that could be expanded upon.

But I think if we start with the idea that we are helpless and with no dessert, and we are calling upon the

Sovereign of the Universe, its Maker and Lawgiver and Governor, who out of the generosity of His compassionate heart is proffering salvation to those who seek it earnestly from Him.

We have to go to our midway break. Thank you very much, Bruce, for that excellent question. And I want to actually pick up on where you left off on that very issue that Bruce's question involved when we return from the break.

But folks, please be patient with us. This is the longer than normal break, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show. Therefore, we ask you to be patient with us and use this time wisely.

Grace Life Radio needs this longer break, because they are required of the FCC to air their own public service announcements and other local announcements that localize this program to Lake City, Florida, geographically.

While they do that, we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials. So please use this time wisely and write down as much of the information provided by our advertisers as you possibly can, so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them.

And sometimes, if you can't purchase their products, use their services, visit their churches, at least reach out to them from the information they provide in their advertisements.

Reach out to them and thank them for sponsoring Iron Trump and Zion Radio. At the very least, please do that, because we want our advertisers to be pleased with the responses from our listeners, and we want them to stick around so that we can stick around.

We depend on the finances that come from our advertisers to exist. Never forget that. Also use this time to send in questions to Roger Salter, ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. Hello, dear ones, my name is

Justin Peters, and my friend, Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I are frequently blessed to share great times of fellowship with one another at conferences all over the

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This is Justin Peters reminding you that Christ is supreme over all. Fellowshiping with the family.

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

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Here's what Gary DeMar, president of American Vision, had to say about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio recently.

Good to be back, Chris. I always enjoy our time here. I have to tell you, one of the better interviewers out there, and I've been doing this for more than 30 years.

Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.

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Before we return to Roger Solter to continue our discussion on a man called

Luther and a man named Erasmus, I just have a couple of announcements to make.

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Go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now. Also, folks, if you are not a member of a local

Bible -believing church like St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama, no matter where on the planet

Earth you live, I may be able to help you find a church. I have helped people in many parts of the world find churches, sometimes that were right around the corner from where they lived and they didn't even know these churches existed or they didn't know that they were solidly biblical.

So I have extensive lists of biblically faithful churches all over the planet. If you are without a church home or if you're visiting somewhere on vacation and want a good solid church to visit, or if you have family, friends, and loved ones who are without a church home, no matter where in the world they live,

I may be able to help. Send me an email to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Roger Salter.

On our discussion today, a man called Luther and a man named Erasmus. That's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Going back to Bruce from Hoover, Alabama and his question on prayer,

I am immediately transported to a precious passage of Scripture which

I think highlights the very thing that you were talking about as far as the helplessness and hopelessness of man who cries out to God for mercy because he knows he is completely and totally and utterly dependent upon God for salvation.

And even for any good thing in this world, on this side of glory, he is totally dependent on the grace and mercy of God.

I am immediately thinking of Luke chapter 18, 9 through 14, the

Pharisee and the tax collector praying in the temple. And I have said this a number of times on my show, but this is one of the most precious passages of Scripture to me because it was the quoting from memory as best as she could of this passage by my mother is what the

Lord used to prove to me once and for all that she was truly regenerate while she was dying of pancreatic cancer.

And I was able to rest in the assurance that she was heading for heaven. When I asked her if she believed she was going to heaven and she said yes,

I said why? And she said, well, because Jesus died for my sins. And I said, well, you've been a wonderful woman, a wonderful mother.

You've been so selfless and humble and giving. And you've been a very religious woman.

You've been a very generous woman. You've been a very compassionate and tender woman. Your children cannot even think of anything to complain about in regard to you being our parent.

Are you sure that none of that is helping you get into heaven? And she said, no, absolutely not. And I said, really, why?

And she said, well, that reminds me of that story in the Bible where there was a

Pharisee and a tax collector in the temple praying. And first you had the

Pharisee bragging about himself and all the things that he did do in the temple as he was praying.

He was basically boasting about how righteous he was. And there was a tax collector in the temple who couldn't even look upward, who beat his breast and said,

Lord, be merciful. To me, a sinner. In fact,

Lord, be merciful to me, the sinner. And Jesus said,

I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other one.

For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.

And my mother said, Chris, I am the tax collector. I almost fell off my chair when she said that.

And this text will forever be a very precious text to me. And the very thing that God gave to me as a gift coming from the lips of my mother to give me confirmation that she was saved.

Having been raised in Roman Catholicism her whole life, having been trapped in the superstition and the relics and the ritual and the idolatry, which she all renounced, by the way, on her deathbed, she gave up prayer to the saints and was making it clear she was trusting 100 % on Christ and him crucified in order to enter into heaven upon her death, which she believed was imminent.

And it was. She died six weeks after she was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. But I just thought

I'd share that again. I know I've shared it many times on the show. But I thought that Bruce from Hoover, Alabama, gave a perfect open door for me to bring it up again.

Another thing I wanted to plug, since it is available through solid -ground -books .com,

one of our sponsors, is The Valley of Vision. Are you familiar with The Valley of Vision, a collection of Puritan prayers and devotions,

Roger? I love it. I love it, Chris. I'm currently working my way through it both in the bedroom and in my study.

And I read those meditations several times before I turn the page.

And I use the term absolutely gorgeous, beautiful. Amen. Well, you can get that in all kinds of versions from solid -ground -books .com.

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I bring it up, if Bruce, hopefully he is still listening, if you need guidance on true biblical prayer, or anybody else listening, for that matter, this is a good way, reading this, not to always rely on just reciting what's in there, like a prayer book.

You don't want to get the vain repetition either. But it helps to train the way we think about our desperate need and utter helplessness and God's glory, righteousness, and omnipotence.

And it really is a good guide, wouldn't you say, to help people train themselves in the proper way to pray?

Absolutely. It's so encouraging. Whatever mood you happen to be in, or without fluctuating faith and understanding, it always meets the need daily.

It's such a beautiful gift to the Church, Bruce. Amen. When I say

Bruce, I mean Chris. I think you did say Chris. I'm going to say something between you and me,

Chris. Just between you and me. I sent Bruce a copy because of my affection for him as a

Christian brother. I asked him if he had a copy, and he didn't. Oh, wow.

Not speaking about my own generosity, just that absolute keen desire to share the value and beauty of that book with as many people as possible.

That was not prepared beforehand, folks. It was completely providence that this happened.

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It's just tremendously a great means of grace. So go to solid -ground -books .com

and ask for The Valley of Vision. And remember, always mention

Chris Arnson of Iron Troupe and Zion Radio when you make a purchase. And if you could, pick up where you left off on the importance of this whole theme to begin with.

Roger. Okay. Okay, Chris. Well, you know, we've talked about two individuals,

Luther and Erasmus. But I think every church, denominationally, congregationally, or every individual believer comes under one of those lineages that we've mentioned,

Luther or Erasmus. Erasmus, a great man culturally and in literary terms, a very great man.

But, again, as his diatribe reveals, very laid back about the matter of the urgency and necessity of salvation by grace compared to Luther.

And I think that the church is divided into those two sections, those two conflicting companies, those who know the desperate need of God's grace as the only answer to their human need, and those who see it as a sort of decorative matter.

Religion is decorative and purely human in terms of its fellowship and the way in which it shares companionship.

I hesitate to say some of this because we all view the church from a different perspective as to in whatever direction our attention is turned.

And I speak in general terms, but I think of the church in our time as largely indifferent to the divine revelation.

It's almost useless in terms of the salvation of needy people.

And, again, one goes back to this idea of the dependence upon human goodness, which can be extreme or partial or grace alone.

What is the key? The will of man or the will of God? Is our confidence partly in ourself or completely in God?

And thinking of the church in general terms, which I think, and I could be wrong, and other people may have a different vantage point, but I think it's absolutely afflicted by a terrible malaise when it comes to faithfulness to the word of God.

Do we, as a denomination or as a sector of God's church, do we blunt the word?

And do we operate on the basis of human wisdom or do we see ourselves as boldly messaging the word of God?

Do we temporize or hesitate or mildly measure the word of God to the dictate of our preferences and treat it according to our prejudices,

Erasmus -like, or do we boldly pronounce the truth of God with conviction, flaming conviction, as did

Luther, and we can sense where a church lies by the priority and the vitality with which it proclaims the gospel?

Or is it just some sort of human organization functioning under the name of church with the occasional reference to Christ that has nothing to do with His saving assignment?

You know, it was Paul who said we preach Christ crucified. That is our key theme.

Not necessarily verbally, we're making people aware of their perilous position outside of union with Christ and of the absolute bliss that God brings to His people, especially in the world to come.

And when I look at the church, and especially my own denomination, I just weep.

I despair as to how we are abusing our privilege as the so -called people of God when we're scarcely bringing people into that family of Christ.

We're scarcely declaring Him. We're caught up with all the things that are to do with the horizontal affairs of mankind, but the vertical dimension is overlooked.

That pressing, urgent need that deals with eternity and our ultimate destiny.

Are we blessing people in that vitally important way? And I just think, you know, that the church in our time is principally

Erasmian, tame, timid, afraid of human disapproval, and seeking the approval of the world when the church should be imbued with the courageous spirit and effectiveness of the

Saxon reformer we've been thinking about, doing you to compromise or prize the gospel above all things.

And you know, one looks at one's own heart and thinks, we're terribly lax in this area, but it is the keen desire of every believer to be caught up in that desire and energy of Luther to make

Christ known and to see people redeemed and recovered to God.

And I think of the church, you know, is its desire and is its greatest fear the opinion and friendship of man or loyalty and love of God, whatever the cost and consequences.

And we're afraid of the most mild form of persecution. We can't stand the criticism and the contempt of the world.

But in our Article Chapter 20, in our Anglican Confession, we are told that the church is a witness and keeper of holy writ.

How much, I ask it of my denomination, I ask it of ourselves in our little independent gathering.

How much are we a witness and keeper of holy writ? Because that's our absolutely necessary function.

And if the church isn't doing that, it shouldn't exist. Other experts can do a better job with social issues and legal issues.

Not to say that we shouldn't be concerned about these things, principally as a matter of prayer or assistance if we're in a position to do so.

But I find the bishops that I work under, if I'm not in England, but if I were there, they're totally irrelevant.

The bishop now for climate change has been appointed. It's the climate of the church that needs to be changed.

And one is so desperately concerned about the laxity and the uselessness of the institutional church.

It's a barrier to the knowledge of Christ because it's misleading people, and they think by membership of this organization there's some hope for their eternal well -being.

I think it's like the Pharisees, the blind leading the blind into the ditch.

So this is where I think we have to analyze where we are as a church in general, as denominations, as affiliations, as congregations.

Are we in the lineage of Luther or of Erasmus? Amen. We have a listener from Hartsdale, New York, Bobby, who asks,

I know that Luther and Erasmus mutually admired one another. I don't know how close of a friendship they ever developed, but did

Luther ever come to view Erasmus as a regenerate, born -again brother in Christ?

He yearned for that relationship with Erasmus. I don't know that they ever reconciled in terms of personal relationship.

Luther obviously admired the scholarship, the intellect of Erasmus, and Erasmus admired

Luther's concern for the reform of the church. They just had a different idea as to what that reform should be.

And I see no record of Erasmus ever evidencing a truly regenerate form of faith in Christ and an entrance to his kingdom.

I trust that somehow, somewhere, that is what occurred. But, you know, there was a mutual admiration.

It turned, I think, to, if not animosity, certainly mutual frustration with each other.

Erasmus thought that Luther was too raw and primeval in his approach to things.

But, you know, here was Luther, a man of passion, and Erasmus, sort of the laid -back gentleman who would discuss these things, but they didn't impinge upon his conscience or his sense of need.

That's interesting that the Catholic would view the reformer as primeval. Yes, I was thinking in the sense of Luther was almost to a man, a refined man like Erasmus, a barbarian in his approach to things.

Like a bull in a china shop. Yeah, like a bull in a china shop.

Yes, absolutely. And yet Luther's work is superb.

It's a marvelous book. It's a theological classic. And if one had any control over preparation for ministry, this should be a fundamental work.

I find so often the fundamental works of ministry, when you're going to seminary, they're the ones you have to read in your spare time.

We have to study to keep up with contemporary trends and skepticism and things like that, all of which is necessary.

But when you're in the pulpit, you're not preaching options, you're preaching the word of God. And you're his emissary.

And you're not creating your own inventive ideas or making comparisons, have comparisons with other philosophies.

You're declaring the truth of God as much as you possibly can, word for word.

We know none of us do. We know we all come out of the pulpit with regrets and dissatisfaction.

But the fact is, that is our aim, to be spokesmen for God. As the great

Old Testament theologian, Walter Eichrod, said, the preacher is like a man talking about old -fashioned ships in the 20th century, who is simply

God speaking to you. He's not making up his message, he's deriving it from God, the word and the spirit.

And I don't think we do that anymore in the majority of the so -called Church of God.

And so one asks, what is the mood of the Church? Carelessness and just a matter of functionality as an organization, or is it gospel -oriented?

Christ crucified, and the reasons for preaching Christ. I don't hear that from the

Archbishop of Canterbury. He's got the best Protestant pulpit in the world. He's not a

Protestant, he's not using his pulpit as he should be, and he's not worthy of his office. I don't mind saying that to you face -to -face,

Justin. You're a shame on the Church of God. Or dealing with matters extraneous to that central assignment, preaching

Christ. Amen. Human concerns on the horizontal level, the principal concern is the vertical level.

How do we relate to God? And we only can through our mediator, Jesus Christ.

Amen. We have, let's see here,

CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, wants to know, there are some within Reformed and Fundamentalist circles who are so opposed to Catholicism that they don't want to hear anything about the patristic era, and they don't want to hear anything about what the

Church Fathers had to say. And this would be primarily of the Fundamentalist wing of the

Church. And there are those, obviously, on the other end of the spectrum who are so enamored by such men that they believe that the

Church of Rome even today is a true church, albeit with some flaws and errors.

And they become ecumenical and seem to put the issue of the Gospel itself in a secondary or even tertiary level of importance.

How do we approach this issue of how to respond to the

Church of Rome in a more balanced way, when we don't dismiss the treasured fathers that existed before the

Catholic Church ever truly became a Roman Catholic Church, without also buying into the whole concept of modern -day ecumenism?

Well, using the term fathers is a very general term. Some were better than others.

None of them were consistent. I could be dismissive by saying that fundamentally, like William Cunningham, I think they weren't the fathers of the

Church. They were the infants. The Church's understanding had still not arrived at many of the key fundaments of the faith.

I think that in their situation and time, they were courageous and godly men. They were very gifted men, but they had their faults and flaws and tremendous inconsistencies and lack of understanding, like we all do in some areas.

But I think the virtues and values of the Church fathers are overestimated, but I think we should know about them.

I think we should learn about them. I think that they have great things to say to the contemporary

Church, but I very much think that their value is overrated when you compare them with the apostles themselves.

And there were great flaws in their thinking, as well as greatly helpful insights.

I think we have to see them as very fallible human beings, as we do in all

Christian leaders up to our particular time itself. And then, what was the other point,

Chris? The Church fathers being exaggerated in terms of their usefulness to our understanding of the faith and the complete rejection of what is called the

Catholic Church. I think we've got to look at the Catholic Church in two particular compartments or aspects.

There's the Church Catholic, as distinct from other groups and heretical sects, and there's the

Roman Catholic, those elements that originate from the medieval period in the

Church of Rome, the Papal Church. I think we have to distinguish between the two, that in the

Catholic Church, historically, there were great men of God. I mean, particularly

Calvin and Busser mentioned that in the Church of Rome, there was a remnant of true believers.

Somehow God protects them from the grave and damnable errors that were originated in that body.

And I believe that there are Catholics who truly know the Lord, protected from the flaws and errors of the

Church, but nonetheless truly God's people. And I think that where we lose out is when we don't go to that Augustine lineage that is there in the

Church and traceable. Great men like Gregory of Rimini, I've mentioned Bernard of Clairvaux, Gottschalk, who was absolutely admired and translated by Archbishop Busser.

Great men of God. Radtramnus, who brought Bishop Ridley to a clear understanding of the

Lord's Supper. You know, these men who influenced the Church for good down through the years and shaped the orthodoxy of those men who were clearly among our reformers on the continent and in Britain.

You know, it's not a case of absolute black and white. I don't know.

I know when I weigh my own tendencies, I could not be a Catholic. But I do know that there are men in that communion who truly know the

Lord. The difference is over how Christ is grasped. But there is a certain wisdom as to how fellowship with Christ is maintained.

I know that people can think I'm on a very dangerous edge here. But you know,

God is sovereign. God is all -powerful. He does have his folk in the Catholic Church.

And there was one movement within the Catholic Church in Ireland that became a membership of the

Evangelical Fellowship in England. Men who were striving, mostly lay people with some priests, to see the

Church reformed according to the Gospel. Now, it's a tough job. And we don't know where individuals in their own conscience stand.

But I do think that there is, particularly before the Reformation, a whole lineage of men who are worth listening to.

And there's a book that came out recently called Long Before Luther that outlines the lives and ministries of some of these people.

Was that by Nathan Bucinich? I don't recognize the name,

Chris. But it's very interesting. And there are a lot of omissions in it. There are simply great saints of God who proclaim the

Gospel very clearly who were not papalists, who were not dictated to by Roman invention and superstition, but who were allied with the

Church of the day, if I can put it. The term isn't accurate. Denominationally, but had their own individual views and were not under mental enslavement to the papacy or the eras of Rome.

I think of the Spirituali in Italy who were afraid of leaving the

Church they knew, but believed in justification by faith, electing love.

And among them, Michelangelo himself, when you saw his later work on the sculptures he had to fulfill in various commissions he had received, his whole emphasis changes in the way he sculpted the saints and men of God because he came to believe that Christ and His grace was uppermost in the

Church and not the reputations and ideas of men. So it's a more subtle situation than perhaps we can describe in detail succinctly.

By the way, we have to go to our final break, and I did look up, as you were speaking, long before Luther, tracing the heart of the

Gospel from Christ to the Reformation that was indeed written by Nathan Bucinitz, who's on the faculty at the

Master's Seminary, the seminary founded by John MacArthur. I've been trying to get

Dr. Bucinitz on the show, and hopefully that will occur at some point soon because he is one of the speakers at the

G3 conference that I am promoting. We have to go to our final break, and if you have a question, send it in now before we run out of time.

We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

My friend Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I are headed down to Atlanta, Georgia once again for the

G3 conference. This year's G3 will be held Thursday, September 30th, through Saturday, October 2nd, on the theme,

Christ is Supreme Over All. I'll be joined by over 20 other speakers and musicians to lead in the worship of God through preaching, teaching, and singing, including

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For details, visit g3conference .com. That's g3conference .com. Chris Arnzen and I hope to see you

September 30th through October 2nd at G321. This is James White reminding you that Christ is supreme over all.

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Welcome back, and I just want to give a plug to a couple of interviews in the future that my

Anglican listeners today might be especially interested in marking on their calendars.

Two weeks from today, or not two weeks from today exactly, but two weeks from now on the 16th of March, which is a

Tuesday, Tuesday, March 16th, we will have for the very first time ever

Paul Castellano on the program, and he is the author of As It Is in Heaven, A Biblical, Historical, and Theological Introduction to the

Traditional Church and Her Worship. Paul Castellano is a minister in the

United Episcopal Church of North America, and this will be his first appearance on Iron Troupe and Zion Radio.

Also, we don't have a date yet, but we will keep you updated on when we are joined by Gerald Bray, another

Anglican author who has written the book. It's a brand new book, Anglicanism, A Reformed Catholic Tradition, so I hope that you keep listening to get further updates on the

Gerald Bray interview. And, Roger Salter, I'd like you to summarize over the next few minutes, uninterrupted, what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today about the subject we are addressing.

I don't know if it will be to the point, but I have three quick statements in mind,

Chris, that we ask the church of our time that are we fit for the life -giving, life -risking service of God?

Are we friends of the world or companions of the world? Because I think John's statement in his letters about how the enmity of the world to Christ and therefore the necessary warfare that takes place between the people of God, I wonder if that is being fought worthily for the sake of the glory of God.

I would ask us to consider whether the current church would be more comfortable for Erasmus and his types or Luther and his troops.

And I would also want to say that from my own perspective, I know

I'm taking a risk as to whether people would think one was a trustworthy witness to the gospel,

Chris. But I remember Spurgeon's dictum concerning sources of truth, that we grasp truth from wherever it comes, even if we don't necessarily trust or approve of the source.

If they are stating something that's true, we claim it for the cause of the gospel because all truth comes from God.

And sometimes enemies stumble upon it or sometimes liberals state something that is true according to the revelation of God.

And I remember that Martin Lloyd -Jones recommended on the conduct of the holiness of the

Christian life a high church author by the surname of Kirk. Now, I would not join a denomination that is inhabited by both

Anglo -Catholics and Evangelicals. I've learned from Anglo -Catholics, but I don't think the

Evangelical cause can progress and flourish if we're held back by having to be polite and considerate to Anglo -Catholic friends where we feel that they are not accurate in terms of the gospel of Christ.

And so, I found I'm currently reading Bishop Ryle on Light from Old Times, and this is what he is saying and one agrees with it.

Throughout this book, time after time, this is the editor, Ryle shows those who are undermining the doctrinal integrity of the

Church of England in his day, and were doing so in the name of high churchmanship, were actually misrepresenting their own history, their own standards, and the very nature of the

Church of England. The Evangelical party in the Church of England was readily dismissed by them with a wave of the hand and a taunt of low churchmanship.

But as Ryle shows repeatedly, the Church of England is reformed in its standards and reformed in its founding.

Those who have sought to make it into something else, from the law to the Tractarians, from the

Tractarians to the Modernists, have declared their allegiance to the dishonest party.

I say that with respect for certain people in the Church, whom I admire and befriend personally, but I don't think there is any hope for Anglicanism in our time if we're still the mixed entity that we happen to be.

We've got to be freed and unfettered from having to consider people we love and respect.

We must proclaim the truth as it is, and we shouldn't be held back by being in a body that has different allegiances within it.

We've got to be reformed, utterly reformed, and where there is

Catholicism, like Gerald Bray's book probably advocates, we are a reformed

Catholic Church, creedally, and we must be loyal to the doctrines that our reformers uncovered for us and develop those doctrines in a way that is consistent with our historical heritage.

Amen. I've muffed that one. I've muffed that one. Chris, the other thing is

I support your appeal, and I wish that Warren Buffett was my rich uncle. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

Me too. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. I have to check my genealogy,

Chris. Well, I want to thank everybody who listened today. I want to thank my guest,

Roger Salter, who always proves to be a superb guest. I look forward to your return to the show soon and often.

I want to make sure that our listeners have your websites again, stmanglican .weebly

.com. That's S -T -M as in Matthew, which is an abbreviation for St.

Matthew's. anglican .weebly, W -E -E -B -L -Y .com. S -T -M, anglican .weebly

.com. And also, rogersalter .com. That's Roger, S -A -L -T -E -R .com.

I want to thank you so much for being my guest. I want to thank everybody who listened, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater