Open Q&A with Drew Von Nieda & Chris Huff

Welcome welcome to apologetics live.

No, I am NOT

Andrew definitely told me to take that off of mute or take that off of loop and I completely forgot about

it.

But no, I am NOT Andrew Rappaport.

I am another Andrew.

You guys know me.

I am drew from matter of theology and You know, it's that place where theology

matters because everything is a matter of theology.

And while I am here, I am NOT here alone.

That's right.

I'm here with the actual true host of matter of theology Mr. Chris Huff my partner in

all things Bible, but before I bring him on Andrew couldn't be here.

He is actually in Oklahoma preparing for the cruciform conference.

But he asked us if we would host the show tonight and you know Of course, we were happy to do so and we're happy to serve now

apologetics Live is a podcast ministry from striving for eternity that seeks to answer your questions about God

and the Bible.

If you would like to come on the show ask a question simply pull up your Google Chrome go to apologetics live .com.

Click the duck follow the instructions and make sure that your audio is set up correctly and we will bring you on.

Now one topic Chris and I talked about this one topic.

We're not going to be dealing with today Because it's been dealt with the past couple of weeks.

Is that of the Hebrew Israelites?

Okay, it's been dealt with.

We're not gonna handle that.

We're gonna look into other topics and questions that you guys are going to have.

So with that I'm gonna bring in my partner and all things Bible.

Yo, Chris Huff.

What's up, man?

How are you?

I'm doing well.

How are you?

I'm good, man.

I'm good.

What's new?

What's exciting?

Oh, you know just you know doing doing Bible things with my Bible friends.

That's it.

That's it.

We do Bible things with Bible friends because we want to be about Bible people we we are that's that that's our aim in

life Is to be Bible men, that's the girl.

You're a lady be a Bible lady.

That's it.

So so Chris, let's uh, let's talk about something that's in the in the news and this is not quite in the news.

But it's something that You have a buddy who is military.

What's what are some things y 'all been talking about?

Oh, well, I mean.

So so it started out with you a friend of mine by the name of that's right.

All dogs.

Jason Cape said all dogs.

Hosting tonight, thanks gentlemen.

Thanks, brother.

We love you, man.

So I've got a friend of mine.

His name is Alex Rodriguez.

He is the pastor of Outpost Bible Church in McHenry, Illinois and We

just we're talking about Something that he saw in the fact that now the United States Navy

has a spokesperson in order to Gain more recruits and and this person happens to be a

drag queen and and so yesterday I was I was

filing through Twitter a little bit and I've been taking a break.

Just quietly.

Well, I guess it's not quietly anymore.

Taking a break from from from some most of things social media except for been watching my screen time stuff like

that.

So just trying to just trying to back away from that a little bit and it's been long.

But I was I was rifling through Twitter and there's a former Navy

SEAL and author by the name of Rob O 'Neill.

Which if if you know that name Rob O 'Neill wrote a book.

I have it right over here entitled the operator.

He actually Is the Navy SEAL who killed Osama bin Laden.

And he put on Twitter I'm not gonna read the entire tweet because there is some language in there.

But he said alright and I can almost hear him saying this as I do listen to his podcast every now and then.

He said alright quote.

Alright, the US Navy is now using an enlisted sailor drag queen as a recruiter.

I'm done China is going to destroy us.

You got this Navy and then he said I can't believe I fought for this stuff.

And he didn't of course say stuff and.

And he had he had a few more a few more interactions with this topic yesterday and

and and he said this and I will I will quote this and I agree with this.

He said and I quote the US military needs to be ferocious not fabulous.

Close quote.

And.

And so that's that that's it.

And I mean so brother one of the things that you and I were talking about Yesterday, I think it was yesterday

was You know the whole concept of once you go woke you go broke and I think back to

what we saw Last oh gosh two years ago.

I don't think it was last year.

I think it's two years ago when the United States Marines Were putting out

Videos and communication around.

You know diversity and inclusion.

Mm -hmm.

And at the same time you have places like North Korea Who their videos are much much

different, right?

Ferociousness and a toughness.

About that.

So there are a couple things about that that I just wanted to talk about real quick and then we can chop it Up.

Yeah, and then if anybody else wants to wants to you know, chop it up.

And as far as the comments go we can about this topic we can do that, too.

But two things first and foremost do not fear as far as the

military goes and just because the Navy is doing that doesn't mean that there aren't more

than capable men and women in the United States Navy and The army and the Air Force and the

Coast Guard and the Marines, etc.

So and so forth who are ferocious and not fabulous and I was talking to these guys.

I've been repping their stuff.

But there it is.

Over at GBRS group global battlefield research solutions.

DJ Shipley Cole Fackler Former SEAL team six guys Deb grew guys and it's just like they've said it's like look,

you know, our military is fine.

We are good.

China may have the numbers on us but as far as the training as far as the

Overall, you know, you're just seeing a fringe of what you know.

Some some higher -up person in the administration that we have what they're trying to do.

Um, so don't worry about that we're good.

But then at the same time, you know, you also have to go when when society's

given to ideologies that are contra scripture they're antithetical to what scripture teaches

we see the Lord and you and I've talked about this a matter of theology when we When we talked about the the wrath of God's

abandonment that you see, you know, you see the Lord give

people over to Depraved mind and and then you see you see what happens with that.

So So it's just interesting man.

Just that the the concept of going woke applies to more than just ethnicity.

The concept of going woke, of course applies to everything LGBTQIA the alphabet soup people.

And and and and a bunch of other things and it all ultimately leads back to Marxism socialism.

Which by the way, those concepts are antithetical to scripture, too.

So that's right.

Yeah.

And along along the same lines of that, you know, there is a a famous brew brewing

company that has made their the face of their their brand right

a Transgender Dylan Mulvaney.

Yep, and you and you mentioned go woke go broke.

Well, what has happened?

They have took a hit Financially big big hit big.

I mean, it's big Lee.

Yeah.

Yeah big Donald Big big huge huge huge big huge

but You know, we had a oh, dude

Also in the news, did you hear that President Biden might

be getting impeached?

Apparently there is a document from a whistleblower that Says that he

was involved in all this criminal activity exchanging money for political favors and it's almost like

We've been saying this for a while, right, right, you know, and now there's apparently evidence

You know go figure right and this just made the news Yesterday last night, I believe I

Did not hear that and I will be surprised if it actually happens.

Well, it was it now Fox News did cover it so Jesse Waters Sean Hannity, they did cover it right and

but apparently Senator Grassley is all over this and apparently he takes whistleblowers very

seriously.

Okay, you should so he was interviewed about Really wanting this document.

Yeah KTN Jesus says yes, I heard about it.

Yeah.

Yeah, check out there instead His his comment.

Yep.

Pastor Darren stood.

He says this is the new brother, by the way They are just going to impeach each other back and

forth each time the presidency changes hands.

It's a political theater.

Exactly.

I mean, what did we see in 2016 when Trump was elected in me before the but the ballots were even counted and he

was officially Looked at as president.

They were talking about impeachment.

Yeah, he hadn't even done anything.

Yeah, right, you know, so it's ridiculous it is it is ridiculous, but

We did get this question in here and this question actually goes with something that I wanted to say regarding

Twitter.

So here's the question.

It's from Carol Carol Carol Jill Carol

Jl1 she says what is Christian nationalism?

What is the church's responsibility for discipleship as far as small groups or in love that

second question?

Yes, the second question I think is very important and that's actually something that I really wanted to touch on because

I Want to encourage brothers and sisters?

Before you get on Twitter or any other social media outlets

Spend some serious time in prayer.

Because it is evident that I've as I've seen on Twitter and I haven't I have not engaged any of these

folks.

But it's evident that there are some some brothers.

And I don't know.

I don't know if there are sisters involved too, but you know, I wouldn't doubt it.

It's Twitter.

That need to spend more time or it's evident that they are spending more time on Twitter than they do

in prayer and The whole controversy the whole debacle is centering around Christian

nationalism and this has been going on for a couple of weeks.

Right and For the people that are listening on audio right now, you can't hear the sound of me shaking my head.

But but it can I say something to bro like It

look I love Twitter

if If I were to if someone say hey, what what is the social media site?

You have spent the most time on mm -hmm and get the most out of personally I would say Twitter and I

know that that there are people out there like bro.

Absolutely not.

So I'll say that I think it's a it's a good medium.

It's a good platform If it's used correctly.

On this on this topic of Christian nationalism here, here's the problem one of the

problems oh.

Yeah, I saw it coming by Darren, but let me keep going.

Um, I'm gonna look away from the comments because I'll get I'll get a DD moment.

So so here here's the issue is some of the things that we're seeing on both sides of the ball

when it comes to the Christian nationalism thing is what what is commonly referred to as self -fulfilling prophecy in

that if you go on Twitter and poke people

In a vague Unclear Unhelpful

not edifying or admonishing way.

Don't be surprised when people clap back.

And don't cry foul when people clap back.

That said Just because someone posts something that you may not agree with don't

read what more into what they are saying and Don't fill in the

blanks for what they aren't saying.

Mm -hmm and remember to respond not react and that goes on both sides

of the ball now the whole conversation around Christian nationalism and When when this question come up our

brother Darren said pastor Darren said he said oh goodness Christian nationalism all over the place right now.

Lol, and it is it really is because it's not actually a monolithic thing, correct.

Depending on what you talk about there.

Yes, who you ask they're gonna have a different definition.

Well and see what brother what's interesting about about this is is this this is one of those topics

that Has not been clearly defined.

Well, and it still is not clearly defined.

It just depends on who you talk to right but but but but here I'll say this.

And then I'll turn it back over you.

All of us who profess faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Should

Advocate for and that I'm saying this as a historic pre -millennialists.

Okay, we should advocate for and be in support of

and Celebrate when there are those who profess faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to whom the

Lord is sovereignly placed in positions of being able to influence the laws of our country

or any country for that matter and They do so in a way that reflects what Scripture teaches.

We should want that we should desire that now.

There are nuances and caveats to that as that's not the most important thing what is the most

important thing is that the gospel of God and of our Lord Jesus Christ would shine bright and Shine

through us that Christ would save his elect and continue to build his church.

Because that's the only institution by the way that the Lord has promised to protect.

Mm -hmm.

So when it comes to the topic of Christian nationalism Especially right now because it's such a

hot topic and people are getting their panties in them.

Sorry getting their underwear in a bunch.

Sorry.

They are On both sides of the ball.

I'm like you guys look here's what you guys need to do.

You guys need to plan time to get together in private and hash this out.

Quit airing stuff like this in a vague way or in an immature way on

social media.

Yep, just stop.

Mm -hmm.

Sorry.

Good.

Yeah, no, I mean, I mean that's absolutely great and getting into the second part of this question here, right?

What is the love the second one for discipleship as far as small groups and individuals?

Well, you know what I'm not hearing from the Christian nationalists debate is Local churches,

right?

It begins in a local church.

I'm hearing it on one side, right?

So Probably the side that whose ministry is devoted to the local church, correct?

All right.

So but now I think You and I would agree right and

Eschatologically, we're on different ends, right?

But I think we would agree that we would love to see America taken for Christ.

Absolutely, we would love that.

Okay, but where does it start it starts in the local church?

And that's why I want to bring up Darren's comment here that he put mm -hmm, which was row which is on the money.

Okay, we need more self -government before Christians can have any impact on culture home

nationalism or not a.

That's it pastor.

So we need we need to be first governing ourselves according to the scriptures and Then we

need to be governing the church according to the scriptures.

Because it's the church that will then have the impact from the people growing in holiness who are

affected by the gospel.

Growing in holiness that are gonna have the impact on the community and then it's supposed to grow out from there.

If you want a great example of that, here's what you do.

Go read the Great Awakening by Joseph Tracy.

Mm -hmm.

You will see a phenomenal example of what it looks like for the Gospel of God the

whole Council of Scripture to be central first and foremost and to see the Holy Spirit move and work

as the sword of God the sword the word that is the sword is wielded and How it affects the

churches and then how it affects the communities that the churches are in right?

That's it.

So when we go out to proclaim the gospel we're going out so that The

the sinner will be saved.

Right.

The sinner will be saved and then what do we want to do?

We want to disciple them we want to bring them into and make sure they're connected with a local church.

Because that local church is really gonna have the impact on them the pastoring the shepherding the community.

They're gonna have the impact on and then it branches out from there, right?

So now let's just go into how missions work, right?

Missions is right one biblical church raising up elder qualified men sending them out to plant

another biblical church.

And then you repeat the process.

That's how you you make Christian nations is by planting biblical local

churches.

That's how it starts.

Yeah, yep.

Well, and that's merely your goal.

Then what you're what you're trying to do is you're trying to come in and be.

It almost like a fascist state, right.

You you want because what right if you if you try to.

If you try to Christian eyes quote -unquote.

Here's here's I'm gonna I'm gonna make a I'm gonna make a statement right here

If you try to Christian eyes a nation city Whatever.

Without the presence of the gospel an actual biblical discipleship taking place.

Just flip the social justice coin over right and that's what you're doing.

Yeah, it's humanistic moralism That has no power to save

and it affects.

It affects everything temporally, but it doesn't meet the eternal need That we all have

and that is how can sinful man be made right with a holy God?

That's it.

That's it.

Yep.

That's it.

Amen.

Let me put up what Melissa Owen says.

She says amen.

There you go.

Amen.

Amen.

But that I mean that's the thing with with Christian nationalism.

And and Carol we hope that we answered your question there.

And that's just one of the things.

You know, it's Christian nationalism is something that's all over the place.

You it's like that question.

Carol Carol Carol Carol go go check out Founders Ministries and their latest national conference that they

did on I believe is on the doctrine of man.

No, I can't remember what it was what it was on but but they addressed this topic Vodibachum Tom Askell and they did a

wonderful job.

And a well -rounded job.

It's go listen to dr. Vodibachum.

Dr. Tom Askell and just go check out Founders Ministries.

The national conference that they had.

The last one I believe it was this year.

Yeah, it was this year.

It was great.

It was it was great.

Yeah, I was in like February or something like that.

So, yep.

Yeah, so okay.

Shifting gears a little bit.

Let's uh Let's get into talking about worship because this

just.

Everywhere I go and probably everywhere you go to We see false

worship.

We hear people talking about worship falsely.

Where do you think that stems from.

Well, I mean we we we saw that in you know when the first murder took place in Scripture.

So it's that's where it stems from.

That's where it started.

And wait, you mean it wasn't you mean the first murder didn't occur from racism, oh gosh, no.

We know.

Okay, Dollar General Mark Driscoll.

Correct.

Yeah.

Yeah that so we heard a pastor one time Say that the first murder

occurred because of racism.

How terrible again for those of you listening on audio you can't hear me shaking my head.

Well, you might be able to at this point.

It's pretty loud.

That's right.

And let me let me answer.

Let me answer this right here brother John elving.

Really question drew believes post -millennialism.

Yes. Yes.

He does.

Yes.

Yes, I do.

But let me say that let me say this about my boy.

My boy my boy drew.

He does but I would put him more in the camp of like a Like somebody who represents

post -millennialism like an RC Sproul did.

Versus.

Those out there who Don't like you mean I'm not I'm not cage.

Stage post mill is what you know, correct.

You're not cage stage post -millennialism and your responses are thoughtful and You're actually willing to

engage in you know.

Academic and thoughtful conversation.

You know, I try but but no, yeah this false worship, you know, we

really see it at at the first the first murder.

Right.

And why was that.

Because we have Cain and Abel and They're bringing an offering to God right.

And this offering is an offering of worship.

Now the fact that they know to bring an offering of worship means that they have done it before.

They know what God requires.

Right.

And what you see is you see Abel bringing the offering that God requires and then you see

Cain bringing the offering that he wants to bring the offering from

from the ground rather than the offering of meat that God wants.

And Abel's is accepted Cain's is rejected.

And Then you really you actually see you know what you see in there.

You see the patience and the grace of the Lord when he rejects Cain's offering

because he says.

He pauses and he says will you not?

Will you will your countenance not be lifted up if you just do what I ask you, right?

Will you not be filled with joy if you just bring what the Lord requires?

Go ahead.

You're gonna say something.

Well, I I was a.

Two things one Melissa Owens our dear sister put a comment.

She said I keep hoping that if Drew keeps drinking that fresca He'll become a pre -millennial.

Me too.

Me too sister.

But but no, but but here's here's something interesting about about about Cain and Abel in Genesis chapter 4.

Of course, I'll be reading from the preferred translation of matter of theology, which is the legacy standard Bible the LSB.

Head on over to read Dot LSB org read LSB org or go to 316

publishing .com and pick up one.

They have great sales for Mother's Day right now.

Just saying No, they don't sponsor me or us.

I just love them.

But check this out, bro.

Genesis 4 verse 4.

Abel on his part also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of the fat portions

and Yahweh had regard for Abel and for his offering.

But for Cain and for his offering he had no regard.

So in reading that that stands out To me.

This is a matter of an offering a matter of firstfruits a matter of worship

before the Lord when we don't.

When we don't worship the Lord according to his word He has no regard for our

offering, right?

It's the same thing.

Go ahead man.

No, I mean, that's that's right.

He he has no reason to have regard for our offering right if we don't bring what he wants.

Because ultimately if we're not bringing what he wants and we're bringing what we want and we're saying hey You should

accept this because it's what I brought you right?

Just be glad I brought you something is ultimately what he's saying, right?

And What what does that say about how we view God.

The God that is deserving of all worship.

Right, and so his offering is rejected and then we see the self

-righteousness of Cain.

It flares up and results in him killing his brother.

And I love you and I love what Anthony Mathenia Says about this.

Mm -hmm, right?

He says Nothing angers the self -righteous more than when they're told that their worship is

unacceptable.

Bro, and that's exactly what happened Anthony Mathenia bringing the heat.

Bringing the heat, bro.

That's the truth man.

It's the truth.

No and and you and I have experienced it, right?

We've we have seen the gnashing of teeth that takes place when you you point out to

someone that.

You know that you know that the Lord desires you to be regulated by the scriptures.

The Lord desires us to be regulated by the scriptures ergo.

We're not going to play X Y & Z songs.

We're not gonna play.

You know, we're gonna structure What we do in our lives not just what we do in the Lord's Day.

But what we do that what everything we think say and do we want to structure that around what the scriptures teach and not what?

We want quote -unquote.

And you know, it's That.

And and there's so much to that, right?

I mean, there's so much to unpack there.

But you know when it comes to when it comes to what we see on the Lord's Day I I'm

you know when we were gonna talk about this.

I've pulled up that a W Tozer quote that I've quoted before.

And this is good, it's a little long so stick with me but check it out.

He says this quote it is now common practice in most evangelical churches to offer the people.

Especially the young people a maximum of entertainment and a minimum of serious instruction.

It is scarcely possible in most places to get anyone to attend a meeting where the only attraction is God.

One can only conclude that God's professed children are bored with him.

For they must be wooed to meeting with a stick of striped candy in the form of religious movies

games and refreshments and any objection to the carryings on of our present

golden calf.

Christianity is met with the triumphant reply.

But we are winning them.

Are we and winning them to what.

To true discipleship.

To cross -carrying to self -denial?

To separation from the world.

To the crucifixion of the flesh.

To holy living.

To nobility of character.

To a despising of the world's treasures.

To hard self -discipline.

To love for God.

To total committal to Christ.

Of course, the answer to all these questions is no period.

Mic drop close quote.

Yeah, and how true is that?

God's professed children are bored with him.

Yep.

They're bored with his word and they're bored with him.

Mm -hmm, and that's when you see things take place like Asbury, right, right

and they call it a revival.

It's not a revival.

Okay, what.

Because The gospel wasn't proclaimed.

It's an emotional prodding.

It's an emotional prodding but what it is is it's not people seeking for God.

It's people seeking for an experience.

Yep, I just want a new experience because they are seeking a God.

Yeah a God of themselves and a God of this age and a God of entertainment and a God of Wanting to

have their their ears tickled.

Mm -hmm.

They're not there's no there's no in Every sermon I listened to at Asbury I'm not saying the

gospel wasn't preached because that would just be asinine of me to say.

But everyone I listened to from the main pulpit the gospel was never proclaimed, right?

So ergo revival did not happen right period right?

That's right.

Yeah, Jason here says a scheduled revival around the anniversary every year.

Yeah, they they actually try to plan these out every single year for that to happen.

But what you're talking about yeah, people are getting bored with God and They're

bored with God because they do not love him they do not see him as the

ultimate treasure of which to be gained and so in in Worship,

right?

We have we have two lines of thought right?

We have the regulative principle.

Which says we are seeking to be regulated by the scriptures and then we have the normative

principle.

The normative principle says well if God doesn't forbid it then we can do it and

With what you see in worship today is a lot of the normative principle because people are bored

with God.

They want a new experience Rather than coming to God and bringing him the

offering that is regulated by scripture Which means what God wants

and scripture actually?

For we can see it.

It actually forbids the normative principle

that one more time.

Sorry.

Oh, I said scripture actually forbids the normative principle.

Absolutely.

Yeah, it absolutely does.

Yeah, if we if we just go over to Leviticus 10

Nadab and Abihu we can see That God forbids the normative principle

now I'm reading from the NASB

the foundational text for the LSB.

That's right.

Bond servant for Jesus asked what is the normative principle?

The normative principle is basically if scripture doesn't forbid it then we can do it so we can we can bring

in things That That God doesn't require.

Right.

So so normative principle would be give us some examples Chris because my mind is like.

Fried yeah, so so one of the things that Vodie Bockham.

He he has a great way of explaining this.

He's talking about the watches.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, or he's like, yeah, he's like, you know, so for my my anniversary.

He said if he said if I if I go out and and want to get my wife a gift

I've got two options, right?

I can be regulated by what she likes or the normative approach.

Okay, so the regulative the normative will say let's start with normative the normatives.

Well, I really like watch it.

So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna go get her a really nice watch even if she's

not into watches and.

Then he said but the regulative principle an example of that he said would say so what I should do is have a degree in

my wife ology and.

And I should know her so well that I know exactly what she wants what she likes

and What would what would bring her joy?

So that was the way that Vodie described the difference between the two.

Yeah, so if you think about drama teams.

Drama teams are normative principle.

We don't need drama teams.

Nope.

Okay, we don't need any of that nonsense.

All we need is we need the Word of God.

The singing the sacraments in prayer sing the word.

Mm -hmm.

Pre pray the word pray the word read the word the word preach the word.

Mm -hmm.

That's it.

So that's what we need.

Yeah, we can do we can come on it on the Lord's Day to worship God with

nothing more than our Bibles.

Yep, we don't we don't need any of the extra stuff now.

We're not saying that things like Bands are are sinful.

We're not we're not saying anything like that is wrong.

It's not wrong to have musical accompaniment when you're singing.

That's what I do.

Right, but when you when you've got to have the lights when you've got to have the fog machines when you've got to have

the emotional manipulation when you've got to have the the dancers on

stage as was lost but now found says When you've got to have the

dancers on stage when you've got to have the drama team when you've got to have all this.

Nonsense.

When you got to have a TED talk when you got to have Unhitched from the Old Testament when you've got to have the Bible says so isn't good enough.

When you've got to have Crass jokes when preaching through Song of Solomon.

When you've got to have I could keep going.

You know, it's it's it's.

Well, I mean it's not prohibited.

So we can do it instead of going.

Why would I want to spend my time focusing on what I can't do instead of?

Trying to find out everything that scripture says that I can and should do right.

That brings joy to the heart of the Lord Where he does accept my offering

And it does glorify and edify him.

Why would I not want to do that?

Right, right.

Yeah, ultimately a normative worship.

It's bringing what I think God should want rather than bringing

Desires.

So that's good.

Yeah.

So now let's get into this text that actually forbids the normative principle.

All right, Nadab and Abihu in Leviticus 10.

Now Nadab and Abihu the sons of Aaron.

Took their respective fire pans and after putting fire in them placed incense on it and offered

strange fire Before the Lord which he had not commanded him.

Okay, so there was fire that he had commanded.

Yep.

And they offered what he did not command and the fire came out From the presence of the Lord and

consumed them and they died before the Lord.

Okay, so now normative principle.

If God doesn't forbid it I can therefore do it.

Well, God didn't say they couldn't use this right, correct, but it wasn't what he demanded

what that's right wired.

For worship, that's right.

And so now here's the crazy thing, right?

Let's think about our charismatic friends our charismatic and our Pentecostal friends, okay.

Let's think about let's let's take this now into Ananias and Sapphira.

And I believe this is Acts chapter 5 that I'm thinking of.

Okay they brought an offering of worship in Selling their land

and then bringing the money to the church, right?

This is an that's an offering of worship.

Yep.

They lied.

They did not they were asked.

Did you is this all of it?

And they said oh, yeah, this is all the but no.

They kept back some from themselves.

They died.

Okay.

So now to my charismatic and Pentecostal friends if you still believe God acts in the

same way That he does in the book of Acts and the bro.

Then you should be the most regulative principle people in worship.

Lest God kill you.

But they don't they don't really believe they don't believe God kill will still kill people for false worship, right?

Because they're actually functional cessationist.

They only believe God still works through miracles signs and wonders.

Right not the full not his full counsel as we saw with Ananias and Sapphira.

And in case you guys just missed it my boy drew here just Layeth the smacketh

down on the charismatics.

Yeah, wow is right.

Bond servant for Jesus.

Here's another story.

Here's here's another example of pragmatism.

Run amok.

When you look at 2nd Samuel 6.

Then David got again gathered all the chosen men of Israel 30 ,000 and David.

But before you get in there, what is pragmatism.

What is pragmatism.

Pragmatism is you do what you do in order to.

Satisfy the felt needs and the desires of whoever you're trying to do it for.

Well because it works because it works.

It works.

It's right, right?

So Verse 2 of 2nd Samuel 6.

And David arose and went and went with all the people who were with him from Baal Judah

To bring up from there the Ark of God which is called by the name the very name of

Yahweh of hosts who is enthroned above the cherubim.

And they drove the Ark of God on a new cart that they might bring it

from the house of Abinadab which was on the hill and Uzzah and I

ho the sons of Abinadab were leading the new cart so they brought it with the Ark of

God from the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill and Iho was walking ahead of the Ark.

Now David and all the house of Israel were celebrating before Yahweh With all kinds of instruments made

of fir wood with the lyres the harps the tambourines Symbols, sorry,

I lost my place.

Verse 6.

And then they came to the threshing floor of Nakoon and Uzzah reached out towards the Ark

Towards the Ark of God and took hold of it because the oxen nearly upset it nearly fell off the cart.

And verse 7.

And the anger of Yahweh burned against Uzzah and God struck him down There for

his irreverence and he died there by the Ark of God.

Right, yep, and I think of that very famous very spot -on quote by dr. RC Sproul speaking to

RC again.

I miss RC man.

But I'm thankful for RC when he says Uzzah's problem is he thought his hands were cleaner than the dirt, right?

But then we have to also but the dirt that God had made.

Right, correct, bro.

That's good.

That's good.

But see the thing is too is.

We have to remember that that Ark should not have been on a cart in the first place and David knew that right.

There are.

You find very very specific instructions as far as how the Ark of God where the presence of God

dwelt was supposed to be carried and supposed to be ushered as It

moved a very very clear instructions so it's

interesting to see what happens there because all Uzzah Uzzah did have a Respect and in

a level of reverence.

He loved the Ark He loved the Lord.

He understood what the Ark was.

But his irreverence and in the way that it was supposed to be handled God struck

him dead.

That's right.

Yeah.

Now now the reason David moved it on a new cart in the first place was because he knew that's how the

Philistines moved it.

Right, right, and because it worked for the Philistines, right.

If it works, right.

Pragmatism says because it worked for the Philistines.

He said well, we'll move it this way also.

And it takes long.

It doesn't take as long.

Right.

It doesn't take as long to move it by cart as it does by carrying it by the poles and every six steps.

You got to put it down.

That's right.

That's right.

Yeah worship.

Yeah, so so.

Uzzah's death occurred as a result of David's pragmatism, right.

And you can find the Parallel to this in 1st Chronicles chapter 15 the

the reason why right.

And it says because You did not carry it at the first the Lord our God

made an outburst on us.

For we did not seek him according to the ordinances, right?

So he knew There was a specific way to carry it

and he did not do it.

Yep.

That's it.

Yep.

Yeah, I mean so so looking at Look Looking at

how we worship the Lord today, right and and looking at the the way that we

that we carry ourselves on the Lord's Day, but then not just on the Lord's Day the way we The way we carry

ourselves in our lives.

We have to understand that if we don't worship the Lord According to his word, then we're showing an action that we don't love

God that we that we functionally hate him.

Because what we've done is we've elevated the filthy rags of our righteousness of our attempts and our

personal preferences and What we want or just like what you said what we think God should accept we

lift that up as an offering to worship to a holy and a pure God and and

and we.

We do it in the same way that Uzzah did.

With zeal and right you think about that man.

Think about think about that.

Just put yourself in that and just just like pretend you're there and in this the Ark of the Covenant is

gonna fall, right?

He reaches out.

I mean it just full sin I mean one to ten he went to a ten on a scale on the violent scale that fast he

moved and he boom and then he's dead and how how much

zeal and How much passion and that quick that that that I'm gonna

give it all I've got.

Look at what takes place at places like Bethel.

Mm -hmm.

You know, you don't see a lack of zeal.

You don't see a lack of passion.

You see all of those things but what you see is a lack of

irreverence for the very mind of Christ in the very Word of God as We approach how we

worship God.

That's it yeah.

And and ultimately man this and when you talk to people about

Bethel, right?

What is it.

First of all, you're gonna get an argument From these people you're gonna get cussed out

because yeah, because that has happened to us but It's almost as if

Bethel is their God.

I.

Right, it's like you just shot their their best pig, right.

Almost how they do it but lipstick on a pig.

It's still a pig.

I mean, I mean crazy.

So but a lot of this a lot of these views of worship these false views of worship come from a

mishandling of of a text in John chapter 4 right the woman

at the well, and it's it's this idea of.

Well when we worship God we must worship him in spirit and in truth and usually when people say when

people's They focus on the spirit part and then they don't understand what the spirit part

means.

And so they think that's if I worship in spirit.

It's this some kind of ecstatic expression.

Right that it can just be whatever I want, right?

No, no self -control.

Right, it's just and they call it the Holy Spirit's just taken over right and just letting me do whatever

I want and then that's how you wind up with nonsense like the Toronto blessing where people are barking like dogs and

Shaking and convulsing on the ground or having holy laughter and all this stuff.

Because they don't know how to handle the text.

But what is John 4 actually about?

Well, let's get into it.

So John chapter 4 we're gonna be looking at the woman of Samaria beginning in

verse 7.

There came a woman of Samaria to draw water.

Jesus said to her give me a drink.

For his disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.

Therefore the Samaritan woman said to him How is it that you being a Jew asked me for a drink since

I am a Samaritan woman?

Okay, this was a no -no Jews had no dealings with Samaritans, right?

Verse 10.

Jesus answered and said to her if you knew the gift of God and who it who it is who says to

you Give me a drink you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.

Mmm, he said to him sir, you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep.

Where then do you get that living water?

You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you?

Who gave us the well and drank of it himself and his sons and his cattle.

Jesus answered and said to her.

Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again.

But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst but the water that I will give

Him will bring him.

Will bring him a well of water.

Springing up to eternal life.

Said to him sir, give me this water.

So I will not be thirsty nor come all the way here to draw.

He said to her go call your husband and come here the woman answered.

I didn't I have no husband.

You are correct.

You have correctly said I have no husband.

Let's be a prophet.

You you have had five husbands and the one whom you Whom you now have is not your

husband.

Who is you?

This you have said truly the woman said to him sir, I perceive that you are a prophet.

That's probably one of my favorite lines of all I appreciate.

Well, okay, let's pause it.

I mean Bro, it would take us years years to properly

Exegete this section of scripture, but something I want to point out.

Here is what you see in In in what Jesus Christ has done and and

what he's doing here is you see a wonderful example of Him

preaching the gospel.

Yep.

And you here's what you see, right?

You see Jesus engaging her.

Okay, so he he he's engaging her.

He's not shying away because because she's a Samaritan woman and he is a Jew.

All right, there's there's number one number two verse 10 he says If you

knew the gift of God and who it is who who says to you give me a drink.

You would have asked him and he would have given you living water, right?

So he starts engaging and talking to her and he start he starts laying it down if you only knew

What who's asking you and then look what he does.

He presents the the the point the point is eternal life.

Water springing up from the well of eternal life, but then what does he do right?

He points out her sin.

He exposes her sin.

Yep, right.

He doesn't shy away from that.

He doesn't say God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life.

He's like no, you're right.

You've said correctly I have no husband for you've had five husbands and the the one you have now is not your husband this.

This you have said truly the woman said sir.

I see you're a prophet.

So then he goes on to say and then he goes on to talk about worship.

But then you look what happens in this conversion that takes place and they're at the end.

What does he say go and sin no more?

Go and sin no more go and live a life after holiness.

Go and live a life Worshipping the Lord in spirit and in truth.

So I just wanted to pause there and point that out because a lot of people Skip over that and they run right to the spirit and truth thing, but

it's like whoa.

What's happening here?

Gospel proclamation and preaching is taking place here.

Go ahead.

Yep.

That's right.

Yeah, and so so.

So reading this exchange right now, we're about to get into the part where they're talking about

worship.

Yeah verse verse 20 This is this is the woman talking

She says our fathers Worshipped in this mountain and you people say that in

Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

Jesus said to her woman believe me an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem.

Will you worship the Father?

You worship what you do not know.

We worship what we know for salvation is of the Jews.

Okay, so boom correction.

Okay.

That's that that's a a stern correction right there.

Mm -hmm.

And how many people shy away from that?

Oh my gosh.

Anyone?

Yep.

I can't offend anyone.

Yep.

Well, we see Jesus say, okay you worship what you don't know.

You don't know God.

So you can't so when you're worshiping you can't worship the right God because you don't know him that we worship what we know.

Salvation is of the Jews.

Yep, but an hour is coming and now is When the true worshipers will worship

the Father in spirit and in truth.

Such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers God is spirit and those who worship

him must worship in spirit and in truth and

This is where people Take this verse and rip it from its context and think

that well if it says spirit Then that means some kind of ecstatic expression.

No.

We just read The woman has said we worship in this mountain.

You worship in Jerusalem, yep, we worship in this temple you worship in that temple

Jesus is saying no a day is coming and now is When you're not gonna

go up to this mountain or that mountain.

You're not gonna go to this temple or that temple, but you're gonna worship in spirit.

So in spirit is the location of where you worship.

Go ahead.

Well in the word spirit there.

So the words the word spirit there is pneuma, okay.

That's what that is.

But the context here the context here is important.

The context here is not referring to the third person of the Trinity is not referring to the

Holy Spirit and this is one of the reasons that both drew and I love either the NASB 95 or the LSB

because when when you see, you know, Jesus Son Father Spirit in the

The titles of God pronouns right he by the way he and him nothing else just in case anyone out there

listening needs that clarification.

Yikes but this the word spirit here is lowercase and the reason for

that is because the Context here and the biblical definition of the word

spirit here has to do with this right the rational Spirit that comes

from the soul of a man.

The rational Hear that word rational spirit.

That that influences what you think say and do that springs up from the soul of a man

the inner man.

Okay, it's the same the same kind of concept as Kardia in the Hebrew.

Which which heart right hide God's Word in your heart that you may not sin against him.

It doesn't mean that you're hiding it literally in your heart.

You are hiding it in your mind in the inner part of who you are that you may not sin against the Lord.

So when Jesus is spirit in truth here, he's referring to the rational spirit that you and I have.

That influences what we think what we say and what we do now, so we worship with that

spirit with with that spirit.

But what is it grounded in?

What is it grounded on and that's why it's important the way these words are structured in spirit

and in truth.

That that our rational soul has to be influenced by the truth.

The truths of God's Word that we know and that's what influences our worship now.

I will say this.

One of the things That sometimes you see in some reformed churches and it and you know,

I've talked about this it drives me nuts a little bit.

Is I don't know about you guys but recently Shane and Shane put out a

Live Psalms hymns and spiritual songs record.

They've got you know, the hymns records that they've done and I love what they do with the arrangements.

And and how many of those have you and I played together, right?

But here's here's something to remember that if you are reformed.

And I hope and pray that you are.

I hope you pray that you believe in the doctrines of grace because you see them in the scriptures.

Do not let that Stifle I guess

is the word I'm looking for or or or mellow the spirit with which you

worship the Lord.

When you're singing the word when you're praying the word when you're reading the word.

You know you you you our our spirit is influenced by the truth.

And that's why it must be rational and orderly.

Paul talks about that in Corinthians.

But at the same time, let's not swing the pendulum so far the other way.

That we are afraid to staunch.

Jason cave.

Good word, bro.

That it's a it's a stuffed staunch, you know I'm gonna

stand at attention like I'm in the military as I Sing the praises of no like it's okay

to feel.

Yeah, but the problem is that that not the problem.

But but but the truth of it is is your your your feelings your emotions and your spirit here that Christ

is referring to.

Must be informed by the truth and I'll say this and then I'll turn it back over to you, you know, bro I've been leading worship.

Haven't in the last few years, but I've been leading musical worship since 2002.

And I have had I'm not gonna use the word

experience.

I guess I will I don't like the word, but I've had more emotional

reactions in Singing the Word of God.

Deeper emotional reactions when singing the word praying the word reading the word hearing the word preached in my life

personally.

The more truth I know about about the Lord and through his word So your

worship will never go higher as John MacArthur.

Your worship will never go higher than your theology goes deep.

And that is the truth.

So go ahead man.

Yeah.

Well, no, I mean you you touch on some good points, right?

So so like I was saying spirit location.

But truth is the manner and that's what you're getting at right there truth is the manner in which we worship

now you also bring up another good point about Feeling what we're

singing it should have a enlist it a response for men's an emotional

response a heartfelt response.

So Christianity is an experiential.

Absolutely, we'll say religion.

Okay, it's experiential.

Okay now what we need to do is we need to do make sure that we we stay Right in the middle

of the path and not fall into two ditches.

One is the hyper emotionalism ditch okay, the other

ditch is the Stoic we say stoic almost

hyper academic knowledge because because if we have if we have not

just knowledge, but yet not Coupled

with with the grace and truth of God right and we're just gonna be like you were talking about

This kind of the staunch right that we're gonna have but if we go.

But but if we if we're in the other ditch just the experience.

Well, then we start we're ignoring truth, we're ignoring theology and we're

We're we're that's where we bring in all the pragmatism all that.

We start focusing on self and what we like and we have to keep feeding that.

So here's here's a question.

Oh, go ahead.

I'm sorry.

We have to make sure we stay right in the middle where we where we're led by truth and

Our but we still have an experience as to who God is according to that truth.

Right.

Well, it's so here's here's a here's a good test of that, right?

So how many times amen the bond server for Jesus said that the theology?

Your theology is to inform your doxology.

Amen.

Amen.

And by the way, Matt Boswell, who's a.

He's a pastor of a church now, but I'm great songwriter.

He wrote the song his mercy is more with Matt Papa.

And by the way, those records that they have are wonderful.

But he wrote a book theology and doxology doxology and theology amazing book.

I've read it three times and and and there's something in there every time.

I'm like, whoa, anyway.

So here's a here's a and we never did book recommendations.

We'll have to go back and do that.

I've done a couple now.

So, um, so here's a here's a prime example, right so.

How many times I said that there's two sides of the ditch, right how many times on a Lord's Day morning.

And I asked myself this question to all the time.

How many times on the Lord's Day morning do one of two things happen to you and pay attention the next time?

This coming Lord's Day if you're in church.

And and and they start playing a song like for example, what's up?

What a beautiful name Hillsong.

Okay.

Here's a good example, right that verse the second verse.

Right, right everybody gets caught what a beautiful name it is.

What a beautiful name it is the name of Jesus Christ our King, right and was like, oh, yeah, man I love that.

You didn't want heaven without us Jesus.

You brought heaven down.

So it's like You know, do you are you are you thinking about what you're singing because if you are and

You are living in your Bible when you hear that you're gonna go wait.

What no.

You know reckless Gag me reckless love.

Yes.

I said gag me.

Absolutely

So Sorry inside jokes.

So, you know That that song starts playing.

It's a it's a six eight time.

And by the way, there is a science in music that certain

grooves time signatures.

Hooks.

Whatever it is.

It is designed to tug at your heartstrings.

It's designed to tug at your emotions.

It's designed to get you in a trance like state.

It's truth.

So it's it's in it's in six eight.

It's in a six eight time signature, but I'll never forget I will never forget when a friend of mine brother by the name

of Sam Hebb.

Oh, yeah.

Reckless bro, don't get me started.

So.

But my brother Sam Hebb, he plays bass.

He's played bass with me and and we've done a you and I mean He's played with us.

We've not just at the church.

We were at but other churches.

He's like man.

Have you heard this song when it first came out?

I was like no and I said send me the lyrics.

That's the first thing I always say is send me the lyrics.

I don't want to hear the music.

I don't want to hear it.

I just want to read the lyrics and I read the lyrics and I'm like, nope and

Here's.

Here's what's dangerous about reckless love and I am not afraid to say this if you like

the song reckless love.

You are in sin.

Right now if you like the song reckless love if it's still in your playlists on Apple or Spotify

or Google or wherever and You listen to it.

You are in sin.

The writer of that song is a heretic.

The writer of that song blasphemes the name of Christ and the Holy Spirit and That song is

heresy.

It's heretical.

Okay, and and it's deadly because what Corey Asprey does is he

takes?

Biblical Reformed truth in the verses and then

twists it.

Can you not hear the hiss of the serpent to call God and his love reckless and then to say that

God Leaves the 99 to come get me.

No, he doesn't.

No, he doesn't but that song was written.

Here's the thing.

Look I'm just going full send ready.

Reckless love was written by Satan himself.

Period.

Yep.

It's meant to distort your view of God.

If you like the song if you play the song if you listen to the song you are in sin and need to

repent.

It is written to twist scripture to twist our view of God.

And so I'm gonna go back to what I originally was saying the next time you're in church.

Do you get caught up because you hear the music first.

Or is your spirit lowercase.

The rational portion of your soul, is it influenced by the truths of what you're

singing?

Are you giving God lip service because you like this song?

Are you completely checked out mentally?

Are you are you are you when you're singing songs like his mercy is more

right.

I Stood neath a debt that I could never afford.

My sins they are many His mercy.

I you can't see.

I've goosebumps right now.

Just thinking about the words to those songs that song.

Before the throne of God above I have a strong and perfect plea.

Well, that is my favorite great high priest whose name is love.

Ever lives and pleads for me.

If that doesn't make you tear up and just Fall to your

knees or throw your hands in the air in which by the way, it is Okay for reformed folks

to raise their hands.

Sorry Scott annual you and I disagree.

It is okay.

It is okay but Whatever you do make sure it's

ordered according to scripture and it's influenced by the truth.

The accurate biblical truths that we see and it's not based upon Something

trying to be stirred up.

Sorry, man, that's rabbit.

Well, well, I mean because you're getting into why it's important to vet the songs we sing,

right?

No.

Before there.

Hold on.

This is why it's important for the pastor To be involved in what songs you

sing because come on.

Let me let me ask you a question.

Okay, who is the lead worship the worship leader in a church?

Holy Spirit well after

It the undershirt that the undershirt under the chief shepherd, yeah.

Yeah the pastor.

Yeah pastor.

Yeah, he's he's he's the the top worship leader in the church right

because his job is to shepherd the flock.

His job is to protect them.

His job is to make sure that what they are singing what they are hearing what they are praying is According to

the scriptures.

And so what you don't have or what you're not supposed to be here.

Yeah, it's got to be there.

What you're not supposed to have is some some rogue Worship leader in his skinny

jeans and his spiked up hair and his deep v -neck shirt.

Okay and saying Bro, dude, bro, I think we're going to

have you heard the latest elevation songs man like We're gonna sing those and they're all

Bro, they're all gonna be in the key of I mean and the key of C and that's how.

Make sure where's my guitarist bro.

Make sure you have some solid pads.

Okay.

Well, let's let's let's let's.

Address a few of those things real quick first and foremost.

If you.

KT and Jesus some pastors don't want to die on the hill of music.

So they allow stuff that is from bad sources that why don't we gotta

describe about worship leaders?

And what songs do they play?

Why do you gotta why do you gotta judge the songs we sing.

Because you're not gonna die on that hill for your people.

That's why any any hill.

Okay any hill worth dying on is a do with

with biblical worship.

Biblical preaching singing praying who Christ truly is.

Okay it those are hills worth dying on.

What is?

Okay, a couple of things here a couple of things we got into it.

We're getting into.

Got me started bro.

All right.

So so here's here's a question.

What is the role of a pastor.

Wait, are you asking?

Yeah the role of a I.

Was like, okay, is this rhetorical and I mean we gotta be careful drew because you know.

Yes, you were an elder and I'm not a pastor and we're talking about this.

So some people may never.

You've never operated a church, okay.

Yeah, the role of a pastor is to lead his flock is to guide his flock is to

protect his flock but to teach them according to God's Word because God's Word is

Ultimately our guide for how we are to worship him how we are to serve him how we are to live our

lives According to him.

So the pastor's role is to preach and teach and instruct and protect

and guide.

He is to drive out the wolves.

He is to Exhort the will to holiness.

He is to proclaim the gospel so that to two people who are in the two groups

of people who are in the Congregation the believer because they go astray and they need to be brought back in

line and to the non -believer who is sitting amongst them.

Who needs salvation?

So the pastor's role is is Vast he is yeah,

he is to make sure that they are worshiping accordingly.

He is to counsel.

Okay, that a pastor doesn't just say well my job is to preach.

No, your job is to also counsel.

That's part of Shepherding that's part.

That's kind of it's in the name.

You just you just you just you just hit the word I was looking for and our dear sister Melissa Melissa Owens said it as well.

Shepherd Okay, first Peter chapter 5.

First Peter chapter 5.

Shepherd Okay.

Therefore I exhort the elders among you as your fellow elder and witnesses of the sufferings of Christ and a partaker also of the glory.

That is to be revealed shepherd the flock of God.

Yeah.

Voice of reason radio, by the way a a Community podcast.

All you have to do is say the word worship and Chris will go full send.

So so the point is the point is the word shepherd, okay the word shepherd.

Okay in the Greek what that word means is to feed to tend to keep

to rule to govern to nourish to

protect so.

All that said if you're listening to my

voice and You are in a church, I'm gonna be very careful here.

I'm not gonna Leave loud.

No, that's not what I'm saying.

Sorry.

What I am saying is you need to have a conversation with your pastor if he does not want to.

Fence the table concerning the songs that are being sung.

Right now I'm working on Brothers and sisters.

I'm working on an episode of matter of theology entitled the wiles of Satan through the songs we sing

and It is one that I've never prepared for an episode like I have for this one

and Drew knows this and Chris on holds knows this and some of you guys know that I like to prepare I like to have notes

typically.

Just to keep me in a straight line, but I've never prepared for one like this, but but here's the thing brothers and sisters.

How long?

So so when I look when I think of pastors right and I think of the example a modern example of a

true Shepherd an elder statesman and I think you know where I'm going with this John Snyder.

Yeah.

Yes and John MacArthur.

But no, no, I would say John Snyder as well.

Yeah.

Listening to yeah, but I knew where you were going.

So I said him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I know.

And you chose someone with the first name John, so I love it.

So here's the thing.

You know, there's a there's a fantastic example of a shepherd right an elder

statesman.

Someone who is committed their lives to shepherding the flock of God among them.

And to doing so with gentleness, but also being willing to stand and say.

We will be regulated by by scripture.

Period paragraph end of discussion.

So if you're in a church where

The pastor refused like you especially if you bring this to their attention and they refuse to no.

We're not gonna die on that hill right to use that to use that Quote there, we're not gonna we're not gonna

die on that hill of the music and we're just gonna you know.

We're gonna leave it up to the worship guy.

Well, brother pastor you are the worship guy.

Yep.

The buck should stop with you because because guess what on Judgment Day The Lord is gonna ask

that worship leader about that and gonna hold him accountable, but ultimately.

You're the one that has to answer for the souls that the Lord put in your care.

If you are in a church.

If you're in a church where the pastor refuses to do that like for

I would sincerely implore implore you to spend some serious time praying.

About whether or not that's the right location for you to be in.

Because if the pastor is not gonna take it seriously and it's gonna say why do we need to examine the songs we sing?

Why do we got to talk about worship leaders?

It's my comedy hour.

You know, then then you don't have a true pastor and you don't have someone who wants to

feed tend.

Nourish and protect your soul.

You have someone that is concerned about their platform.

You have someone that's concerned about the bottom line and the finances and.

You know, well look at look at how gracious God has been to us because we have X Y Z numbers of

people.

Instead of going are we being faithful?

To what scripture has taught are we seeing people grow in holiness?

Do we encourage our people to to if they see something or hear something that do they say

something right to take something from the world there.

Did they did they bring it to me that do they ask questions and is your pastor?

Open to receiving questions because look if you go to your pastor and you want to ask them questions about anything.

You've heard from MacArthur or Lawson or the Bible.

Or anywhere else and their response is just we don't want you here then go

Go that's not the heart of a shepherd, right?

That's that's a that is a heart of a snake to use his words.

That's what that is.

So now let me get to the worship leader portion.

Let me real quick because because it's absolutely true and it's kind of what we're talking on to about

kind of these songs, right.

Was lost but now I'm found says most Congregants remember theology from songs

rather than sermons.

Come on, man.

Now that is if if you think back to The Wesley brothers

John Wesley and Charles.

Yep Charles Wesley wrote a lot of hymns.

He was a songwriter.

He wrote a lot of hymns a lot of poetry.

Fantastic writer.

Wrote some wonderful wonderful hymns Charles Wesley actually told his brother John he said he

said people are gonna remember Me before they remember you because people sing

their theology before they hear their theology.

I.

Had a quote and I don't I don't know who said this and I wrote it down when you and I were

preparing for reckless love reckless worship take two and I didn't write down who

Who said it but listen to this quote people will sing their heresy before they believe it.

Mm -hmm.

Yes, it's it's it's the same concept and and that's why music was given to us.

If you guys have listened to matter of theology or or if we've you know, you've heard us talk about this before.

You know think about the ABC song Everybody if I said everybody listening right now,

I want you to record yourself singing the ABCs.

Pretty much.

Everybody's gonna be unless you're just trying to be fun.

It's gonna be the same tune ABCD H IJ right everybody I'm still

trying to figure out what an element.

Oh is element.

Oh pee.

That's right.

It's not just element.

Oh, it's element.

Oh pee Gosh never mind.

Never mind.

We have some jokes in elementary school spell I cup.

Ha ha ha so Sorry I'm in a rare form tonight.

I apologize.

So but but yeah, man, I mean people will sing their theology absolutely and I

would venture to say that most of the Heretical and incorrect theology that comes into most churches

enters in through the music.

Yep.

I don't have any statistics to back that up.

But just based upon experience and the things that we've seen go ahead.

Well, well.

Brother, John Elvin says I heard some crazy.

Yeah, that's like 90 % of all Christian worship is Bethel and Hillsong and I would I would agree I would throw.

I would throw Elevation in there with you.

Oh, and I think that would bump it up to about 90 % and when you look at the theology that's taught.

Yeah, they teach bad theology because they're heretics.

And so and this is the thing as we get into talking about these songs that you know.

All these worship leaders want to play What You what you do when you put

these words on the screen, okay, you have the song title.

You have the authors and usually with the authors.

It's the ministry that it's by.

Yeah, then you have that CCLI licensing.

Right.

So when when you put that before the people they see the authors and they see the ministry

and they go.

Okay.

Well if we're singing this song in church, that means this ministry must be a good ministry to follow, right?

It gives a stamp of approval.

Yeah stamp of approval.

So now you've pointed them Towards that ministry and when they go to that ministry, what are

they gonna hear?

They're gonna hear bad theology.

They're gonna hear modalistic views of God like Stephen Furtick teaches they're gonna

hear about Canonic theology.

Like Bethel teaches they're gonna hear about word of faith.

Like Hillsong teaches and then not only that right you've talked about this before.

I've talked about this before.

We may have even talked about it on here, but that licensing number is not free.

Nope, you have to pay for that.

Yep Church has got to pay to be a part of CCLI and then one of the one of the contract requirements is you have to

Report to CCLI the songs that you play each Lord's Day.

Or whenever by the way, whenever you're gathered if you're playing that song publicly it has to be reported to CCLI

which in turns pays royalties to the artists and the songwriters, so When

the songs are written They are written in ways that are they're meant to be

catchy.

They're meant to be crafted also in a style that's like what

you hear in the world as as Music styles change and shift Depending on where

you're located in the country or the world.

Those styles are gonna change and shift and so that these songwriters Approach these songs and they approach the

production of these songs in ways That's going to reach out and grab you.

They want to why.

It's a business it's a business and.

That right there, okay, it's it's a business.

Yes.

It's a business.

So now I mentioned That CCLI licensing number and you've got to pay for it.

Well Hillsong music is The biggest moneymaker for Hillsong churches.

Yep.

Okay, and Hillsong themselves.

They're not like a Typical 501c3 like most you know.

They are a limited liability company in LLC.

Yep.

And so they are a for -profit company and so now think about this.

Think about that documentary that came out on discovery about Hillsong in the

last episode.

There are three episodes in the last one.

They talk about the sex abuse scandal from Brian Houston's father.

Mm -hmm.

Where do you think they got the money to cover it up for so long?

Yep and pay for those lawyers from all the money come that comes in from the biggest money

maker of That I'm I don't even not even gonna call it a ministry.

I'm gonna call it a fraud the they got it from their music from from CCLI

licensing and From CD sales and song downloads.

That's where they got it from.

Yep.

Yep, and hey, I'll be the first one to say hey during that time.

Guess who was contributing to that?

Oh, yeah, me too.

This guy right here and the crazy thing songs in their churches.

I'm streaming their songs in my car and my phone everywhere else.

Yep.

And in along the lines of Hillsong as well a lot of their popular songs.

Like what we'll take some of their older popular songs, you know that you and I probably have played a ton

all the writers.

Yeah, all of those writers have now apostatized.

Most of them.

Not all of them.

Got to open his.

Oh, I mean, I need some energy.

I just had to open a fresh fresca.

Oh, here we go.

See Melissa.

There he goes.

He's drinking a fresca.

Yeah, some was Was lost but now I'm found said oceans.

Yeah.

Yeah, and well this gets into the money -making business platform of it because what you see in a lot of

these a lot of these song organizations these music organizations is that

a lot of them come out with thematic music and One will

write a song that's themes like oceans, right?

And then all the others will write in the same theme and then another one will come out with one about deserts or an or About

mountains or about and so you get all these these rushes of songs that all have the same themes

and they're all money -making.

Yeah, I mean I was just I was a watched a Episode of

Hawaii 5.

Oh, it's not on anymore.

But I was watching an episode of that a couple weeks ago.

And and There's a it was Hillsong.

It was Taya Taya from Hillsong.

I don't know the name of the song, but I was like, oh my gosh I didn't realize that one of their songs was featured in a you know, a network television show and.

That that's the goal for them.

And now look, I mean what here's here's the thing to please understand.

We're not saying everybody who works in the Christian music industry is is like this.

I know of I know of Multiple solid believers that are still

in that industry and haven't apostatized and preached the biblical gospel.

Weekend and week out day in and day out whether they're on tour whether they're in church or whatever.

So This is not meant to villainize that in them.

So we'll say that obviously reason specific examples here.

So don't again going back to the whole Twitter thing.

Don't read it more into what we are saying or don't.

Or don't hear what we're not saying.

Let me talk about worship.

Just.

Yeah, let me talk about worship leaders for a second.

I wholeheartedly believe.

And I believe scripture backs this up in multiple places Old and New Testament.

That for anyone to hold the title.

Or not even hold the title but be responsible for

organizing and facilitating Worship bond servant for Jesus says is Matt Papa

good.

He's solid.

Matt Papa is solid.

Get his stuff.

Listen to it.

What's that?

What's the album that he and Matt Boswell did?

What's it called?

I'll look it up.

I'll have to look it up.

Give me a second.

Let me let me finish this thought about where solution.

I'll look it up and I'll share it.

Um, it's so good I listened to it yesterday.

It's so good Anyway worship leaders if if you have someone in your church

or is interested in or you yourself or Your kid or whoever is

interested in being a worship leader in the church I wholeheartedly believe in scripture backs me up.

Then in order to facilitate Singing the word in order to facilitate the order that takes

place on the Lord's Day that those people must must must

meet the Qualifications of a pastor and elder according to Titus and Timothy.

No questions asked.

Yep Chris do you mean that that means do you mean that that you are you saying that a

woman?

Cannot lead worship.

What I'm saying is a woman should not be leading The Lord's Day service when it

comes to the songs that are singing.

Do I?

I'm not saying that women can't be on stage singing, right?

I'm not staying saying that women shouldn't be on stage playing music and instruments.

That is not what I'm saying.

I know a lot of solid young ladies old ladies ladies period who who

understand their place.

And and play guitar sing drums percussion.

All sorts of stuff.

Okay, but the person responsible for that meet must meet Be

examined and meet all of the qualifications of an elder.

Yeah period.

Yep.

That's right.

So if you have somebody in a deep v -neck t -shirt and skinny jeans.

Who who Gives no regard to what the scriptures teach about how the Lord's

worship is to be is to be ordered he's not qualified or she is not qualified and

And and you need to have some conversations with leadership in that church.

I was visiting a church a couple years ago.

When we were looking for a church, we found one now thankfully.

Where the the the main worship director was a woman and they were playing Bethel and they were playing Hillsong.

And they were playing elevation and everything else.

But the I mean the pastor's preaching solid solid, but the answer is no.

I'm not the you know and I kind of fought that a little bit because we had been searching for a

church and I'm just like, oh my gosh like started feeling the weight of that and I was talking to a good friend of mine you guys know

I'm Daryl Harrison of the just thinking podcast and Was sitting around a table with him and Melissa his wife and

I'm like brother I just I mean I kind of feel like I should stay and just tough it out.

You know and just just get over myself, but you know what?

He said to me.

He was like, nope.

It's a Christ Church Chris.

It's not yours.

It's not that pastors.

It's Christ Church and he desires a pure bride.

Will we be perfect?

Is there a perfect church?

No RC Sproul I'm gonna quote RC a lot today evidently RC Sproul always used to say that if you find a perfect church as soon as you walk through the

doors.

It's no longer perfect.

And that's the truth but it's Christ Church the goal and the aim should be to be structured

according to scripture.

Now I'll say this too We are about to join officially a church where the

pastor the Lord has gotten a hold of him with the doctrines of grace and He is and it's a it's a

it's like an aircraft carrier that he's trying to turn and so that does take some

shepherding nourishing.

Feeding.

Protecting caring for everything.

We read out of first Peter 5 that word shepherd.

And so that's what he's doing.

And so why yes, there are things that he knows that it's not.

It is not a biblical ecclesiological model yet, but we are moving that direction.

And he is a solid brother and man.

I put on Twitter This week.

I love one -on -one time with my pastor because it has been just a balm to the soul.

But yeah, man, we're guys worship leaders.

No, they don't see teenagers.

They don't need to be.

Oh, well, it's not true I mean anyway, they need to be examined and make the qualifications period good.

A church I was visiting a couple years ago.

They had brought in this guy to do worship and I was talking with him.

I was talking with him and I said I said I say yeah, man.

So, uh, do you not sing any any hymns or anything like that?

It was like man, I love hymns.

I love old stuff like Stephen Curtis Chapman and things like that.

And I was like, bro.

Now look, I love me some Stephen Curtis Chapman, I'm not gonna lie about that.

But I was like really.

Was a bondservant for Jesus.

That I just.

I just did that I just did that.

Matt Papa, so there's there's.

Oh, yeah.

Well, I've got I got you.

I've already got it.

It's a an album with Matt Papa and Matt Boswell.

It's called his mercy is more the hymns of Matt.

No, good, so good.

Highly recommend it.

And their hymns that Their hymns that that their modern hymns that they've

written are all in the hymns of potholes.

That was me.

Were you talking to Donald said he almost choked on a sandwich.

You talking about the guy singing saddle up your horses.

That was me, bro.

Oh, he could.

Maybe it was when I've made the Stephen Curtis Chapman remark.

Oh, okay but but yeah, I think they're they're modern hymns are in the.

The hymns of grace.

Hymnal, yeah that and you guys need to get psalms of grace.

If you don't have that too, by the way I do want that as well.

It's good.

I I just got a copy.

So here's some Bob Coughlin Sovereign Grace music.

Know the Stephen Curtis Chapman comment on all said gotcha.

They just haven't they have a new one unchanging God songs from The book of Psalms volume

2 and it's very good.

But yeah, Matt Papa and Boswell have done a couple a couple different records together.

Yeah, they're they're they're phenomenal they're just they're awesome.

Those guys are solid good.

Hanholz did put a comment up here and I started and I want to To bring it out because this is this is huge

right here He says and sadly too many churches will refuse to consider this because they want

The music because it appeals to people and when the goal is Grow numbers.

You don't care about those details and that's absolutely right when when the person's goal is

To get more people to fill the seats.

Mm -hmm all Everything else goes out the window you stop caring about those

little things now.

I've said this a ton of times to you The marks of a healthy

church is Not that you're growing in number.

It's that you're growing in holiness.

Amen.

That is the mark of a healthy church.

So if you have if you have a church with 500 people in it But

no one is actually living in holiness.

What what have a healthy church question, right?

What what what are what is the first thing that marks a A believer in the Lord Jesus

Christ who you would say is solid.

Right.

That they're growing in their sanctification that they're growing in holiness.

Why should the standard for churches the church which is made up of people?

Be any different.

That's right.

Yeah, just because your church is a hundred miles wide doesn't mean it's not a half -inch deep, right?

Okay, I'm referencing Tozer there.

Yeah, right.

So it would be much better Instead of having 500 people who are a

half -inch deep to have five people Who you know are growing in holiness

and walking Lord and actually care.

Yep.

Yeah.

Somebody mentioned Robert W Robert Godfrey earlier.

I have a quote from him About this very topic.

He said this quote people come to church wanting an experience and seeking the kind of music That gives them the kind of

experience and feeling thereafter.

It's not that experiences and feelings are altogether wrong.

But if my main reaction to the experience of worship is how I feel in response to music.

I've been distracted from Christ.

I've not.

I've not really been drawn to him.

I think that you could make the argument that for many in the modern church music has become a new

sacrament and They think they can find God through the music.

Period.

Close quote.

That's spot -on man.

That is spot -on and when we do that brothers and sisters when we

win we do that because at some point each of us will and is guilty of

Self -styled pragmatic normative worship in our walk with the Lord.

Everybody is nobody can say.

Ultimately, nobody can say that they've they've been immune to that.

But but the but the problem with that is that when we do so we make God jealous and

It's just like Thomas Watson said in a body of divinity.

He said let us give.

Let us give God no caught just cause to be jealous a good wife will be so discreet and chaste as

to give her husband.

No, just occasion of jealousy.

Let us avoid all sin, especially.

Especially this of idolatry or image worship.

Period.

Close quote.

I mean we we have to we cannot engage in that it makes the Lord jealous and it angers him and

That's I mean, that's not something you hear a lot anymore, right the anger of God.

Yeah, I mean, no, no, no.

No God is love.

God is not anger.

Don't say that.

Yeah, let me bring let me bring this up.

Bond -serving Jesus as.

Wow.

I thought it was gonna be a subpar show without Andrew.

This has been great.

Thank you.

Thank you.

We're glad we exceed your expectations.

All right, right.

Yep, that's funny.

But yeah, man, it's I Wish more people would take seriously

worship and

It's so disheartening to see so many people who just want worship to be

about themselves.

And Bodhi's mentioned this too.

He's like, well the teaching is great but the worship.

It's not the music we like.

Yeah.

Then you're not worshiping.

I'm sorry.

Well, but see that here's it.

Here's here's what you we don't Understand realize and I agree with you.

I feel like that statement.

You just made I wish more people would get it about worship is.

The most frequent sin seen and mentioned in the Old Testament is idolatry

and nothing's changed.

Nothing has changed.

The the the golden calf wasn't an image to an unknown God and

The the golden calf of our day is not an image to the unknown God and the golden

calf of irreverent.

Pragmatic normative worship is a golden calf that people have fashioned and

Called it Yahweh.

Which which which he does not accept.

Right worship.

Brothers and sisters.

Worship is not primarily about you and me.

It's not or any other person created in the image of God.

Period paragraph end of discussion.

Worship in any way shape or form that is based upon our preferences.

It's not worship of the triune God according to the scripture, it's it's it's worship of self.

Melissa Melissa Owens put put up here earlier.

She said most of these songs And above God and that's absolutely true.

Absolutely true.

So Andrew told us this a couple years ago when We were all talking about worship

and he said when when he was a pastor he had a worship leader that These songs and

he would say he would sit in the front row and when these songs came on and he heard these lyrics.

He would look at the worship leader and he would point to me.

He would point to this guy.

He would point to himself point to this guy He said.

And what he's saying is he saying is this song about me or is this song about God?

So.

I'm gonna mention a name here.

And I and I still have friends in in his circles, but Chris Tomlin.

So our son is seven years old and one of the things that we do in the car is

We plug in my my phone and right now his favorite record to listen to is Shane and Shane's new Psalms hymns and spiritual songs

record.

And His favorite songs on there are all creatures of our God and King and you've already won.

He he loves those two.

He's like play it again play it again.

But.

Because you were talking about your son and singing the Gettys have.

An album that's kids singing.

Yeah, I know we have and one of the ones on there is all creatures.

Yeah, so.

But I introduced him.

And I know some of you out there gonna be like You did what after talking about everything you talked about

I introduced him to old Chris Tomlin.

Okay.

Songs like not to us which is based out of Psalm 115 not to us O Lord not to us.

But to your name do the glory because of your love and faithfulness.

Yeah back when Chris was solid back when Chris was writing songs and in when when I knew Chris and when I

Was in the worship ministry at Passion City Church is as far as set up and tear down and all that's when I was involved in that

Chris was very much.

I mean that was the that was around the time.

They wrote chosen generation, right?

We are chosen generation out of out of first Peter.

I mean, hello.

Could that be a more of a perform song?

So so Generation rise up Holy Nation.

Yeah.

Yeah, I used to play us on a ton.

But so so he loved it.

He loved what we were listening to but but there's a good example right of.

Because Chris used to write very God focused songs.

Mm -hmm.

I mean and he would talk about that.

He would say worship is to be God focused not man focused and he he went through that whole phase of saying I try

to write songs that give the church a voice to express their worship

to a big and holy God and I'm like Spot -on man, that's awesome.

That's awesome.

And it's changed.

It's changed a little bit.

Yeah, and and unfortunately who he is partnered with has changed.

Yeah, and that's why it's changed.

I wholeheartedly believe that.

But um, but but but the type of songs that are sung they should be God focused songs.

I'm glad that I'm glad I can't remember who said that now, but I'm glad that they.

That they brought that up.

Man, I keep I keep going back to What you just said?

About Somebody said the glory of God not to us bond servant for Jesus.

Yeah, there's.

Anyway, um, I'm gonna go off on a rabbit trail on Tomlin because I do love the guy I really do and and like I said, I have

still close friends that are in very close with him.

But they know where I stand on this stuff and they're still my friends which is good.

But something you said bro, that's sticking with me.

Because we have right we're having all these conversations about Christian nationalism.

We're having all these conversations about the dangers of wokeness and CRT and those are needed conversations.

I mean I used to I was on the just thinking ministries team for a year and a half you know, like those are my

boys like.

Yeah, you know it's needed all those conversations are needed.

But you don't have a lot of people talking about the issue of false worship and idol

worship in the church.

And I'm gonna read a quote from me.

Something I said in that episode a biblical critique of or a reckless of reckless worship take two.

I said this in the episode I said the whole of the modern evangelical church not just in this country.

But as a whole in the world is sick and they've allowed it to be done with to them.

They've been infiltrated and Invited in wolves that have infected Christ's bride with the

disease dare I say a venereal disease as they have joined themselves

with harlots bent on prostituting the bride of Christ for sordid gain they the

wolves Have infected Christ's bride with the doctrine of demons disguised in

songs analytical tools based upon CRT I and etc and The reason I said

they've allowed it to be done to themselves is these wolves.

They've been invited in by so -called leaders and shepherds who are nothing of the sort

there is a sincere lack of true biblical courage and Leadership from those who have

given themselves the name of pastor.

Those who is JC Ryle said they have a morbid fear of controversy and when those wolves

peddling this damning teaching are found out those in the church still accept them because of unity and

peace in air quotes.

There are still so many who refuse to because of erring on the side of grace also in air quotes to call them out.

Hold them accountable and or seek to protect and equip the flock to be alert

or to be on guard or to watch out to stop listening to and Participating

in these unfruitful works of darkness, even if you like it.

I mean, that's what we see today.

And the results are the results speak for themselves the X if when we

move when pastors and Not just pastors when Christians

when those who call themselves little Christ's.

When those when those who say they love God with all their heart mind soul and strength when

those who say they love his word when those Even those who say that the God's Word is inerrant infallible sufficient and authoritative.

When they refuse to fence the table based on the songs that are being sung.

They are swinging the door wide open to all sorts of heresies all sorts of ideologies to

come in and take captive those to whom Christ has paid for.

One of the reasons that you see these ideologies run amok in those professing churches I

think it starts with their refusal to say we are going to be regulated by the scriptures and how we

worship the Lord on the Lord's Day and Be regulated by the scriptures and everything we think

say and do.

That's it.

That's it man.

I'm gonna bring up a couple comments here.

Send it.

One eternal perspective.

Says I am grieved When the church that I've been at for 19 years continues to sing Hillsong

Bethel and Elevation songs.

Because I know what these churches stand for praying for wisdom.

We are praying for that as well.

And then our brother Kofi my man.

I Preached a series on worship to start the year at our church.

Nice to date.

I have received more unhappy emails calls texts For that series more than any

other and we are unapologetically reformed.

Read that Anthony Matheny a quoting Andrew Anthony Matheny a Paul washers pastor

says nothing angers the self -righteous more Than when they're told their worship is

unacceptable to God and now think about this.

Okay, so Kofi thank you for doing that bro.

Keep pressing on man.

That's awesome.

Absolutely now think about this.

Okay there because I kind of jokingly when you were about to talk about

John MacArthur I said John Snyder.

Yeah, so John Snyder is The pastor of Christ Church, New Albany in

New Albany, Mississippi.

He is the author of the behold your God Bible study.

He's y 'all don't know who John Snyder is.

Y 'all sleeping on that boy.

That's not good.

You need to know who John Snyder is.

Yes, and I think he's actually the director of media gratia.

So yeah, put out logic on fire about Martin Lloyd -Jones through the eyes of Spurgeon

the Puritans documentary.

Mm -hmm.

So in when they were doing and we taught you and I when

Matt Robinson Matthew Robinson was yeah was the director

For media gratia, we talked to him about this and when they were doing the behold your God study

the most pushback they got was on the part about worship and

I'll never forget when when Matthew Robinson told this story he said When

they were talking about worship people were just saying well I can worship God how I want I can worship God how

I feel and Someone who was a boot a Buddhist said well, no you

can't because What I when I was when I was in Buddhism I would take this bowl of

rice and I would put it before this Buddha every day.

Right, and that's how we worshiped.

We would do that.

And so but I can't do that now that I'm a Christian I must do away with

that and I must come to God and worship God.

How he says I must come to him and worship him.

Yeah, and that's what we must do and that's what Christians in

These churches today don't understand and I love what Kofi says here.

John Snyder is a general Kofi that is a perfect way to describe it.

That is that is great.

It's funny because I had a phone call with John Snyder a couple years ago.

And and I was telling him all this stuff and all this stuff that I was thinking was right and he was very

gently very softly rebuked.

Correcting me and rebuking me at the same time and I said hold on slow down.

I'm taking notes.

He's such a good dude.

He is without a doubt one of my favorite favorite pastors to

listen to.

But let's get to some of these.

Because we're running out.

Well first before we get to some of these Comments, let's uh, let's talk about our sponsor

my pillow.

I Have to I have to talk about my story you do you are contractually obligated.

I'm contractually Obligated so it's not gonna get paid.

Yeah, but I'm not gonna get paid so if Chris and I have bored you at all maybe maybe you have tuned into this

show and you are an advocate for Bethel and Pragmatic normative worship

and we afford you with all this Bible talk repent.

First thing you need to do is repent.

The second thing you need to do is get on my pillow.

Okay, my pillows are really comfortable.

Andrew actually gifted me one a couple years ago.

Actually, it wasn't a couple years.

Yeah, I guess it was a couple years ago now.

It's almost two years.

It's it's weird to think about but he gave me a my pillow and I

absolutely loved it.

I loved it.

And I've said on here so many times I loved it so much.

My wife kept stealing it from me.

Yeah.

And so she kept stealing it and I would say give me back my pillow and she would say well then you get me

one and so I got her on my pillow and So we have my pillows.

Andrew goes everywhere with his my pillow and if he if he can he tries to take his is my pillow mattress topper

with him but go to.

If you go to the my pillow Use the promo code SFE get a

discount.

You you will not be sorry.

They are such such comfortable pillows.

You got anything to add about a my pillow?

I don't you did a great job thank you and bond servant for

Jesus.

Reminded me of another one now, which is funny because Andrew actually didn't mention this one,

but I'm gonna throw it up here.

Anyway, Lagos Bible software is also a sponsor of the show.

I Have actually started using my Lagos Bible software more.

As I just prepare small little Bible studies.

And things like that and one of my favorite features is the Word study tools

that you can have because it breaks down the the tenses the voice of Whatever

word shows you other places where it's used and how it's used.

I Absolutely love it so Get Lagos Bible software go to Lagos comm

slash a fee and get you a discount on Lagos.

So now let's get into some of these comments that I kind of starred

The regular let's see if I can actually get it to pull up.

There we go the regulative principle of worship.

Yep, we are Regulative principle people.

That's what you should be.

That's what the Bible promotes anything other than regulative principle

is Only your principle is only worshiping yourself.

That's all it is, right?

So be regulative principle people.

Melissa.

She says the Psalms are beautiful examples.

Mmm worship shouldn't like Absolutely God gave us a

songbook now one of the things that's actually really crazy.

Okay the Psalms.

Singing Psalms is so neglected in church now.

It's making it's making a comeback more and more people are starting this to sing the Psalms.

But it is so neglected in our churches today

Chris.

I think Chris dropped his headphones.

You back with us.

Yep.

Sorry.

I was getting something in my headphone came out.

But Yeah, there we go.

Psalms of dirty.

Sorry now this if.

If I'm correct this Psalms of grace, it doesn't just have Psalms, but it also has other hymns in there too, right?

Correct hymns that are based upon the Psalms and then The text that they use the

scripture is the LSB, but then they'll have the Psalms themselves prayers.

In between devotions, so I've been using it as like I'm reading through

Psalm 92 is where I am right now.

Like I read it'll read I'll read the Psalm and then they'll have a few songs based upon Psalm 92.

Like there's one that's make music to the Lord and the second one is how good and pleasant it must be.

And so you just read through the lyrics if you can't read sheet music.

Don't just read through the lyrics of the song and then go look up a solid version.

So of the song if you want to listen to it, but it's it's it's great.

Just go to hymns of grace org I think it is and then that's where you can get the copy of Psalms of grace, which is

different than hymns of grace.

So yeah, yeah, and now they're I Do say that Psalms.

Singing Psalms is very neglected in a lot of churches.

Not many churches today even sing hymns.

Right, and what we see in Scripture is we see that we are to edify each other with psalms hymns.

Now Admonishing one another that's right.

And so in in Greek a lot of times word order is important and I've heard dr.

Lawson say this that That first position is known as the

emphatic position.

So it's it's the most important position and so we are to sing Psalms and we are to sing hymns and we are

to sing Spiritual songs and now I I have heard people say that well, that's just three different ways of saying

sing the Psalms.

I would disagree with you.

Mm -hmm, and I would disagree with you on the account of Scripture itself.

Yep.

Okay, so in Exodus 15 you have the song of Moses.

Okay.

And in Deuteronomy 31 Moses is told to teach that song to the

people so that they may worship in Judges 5 you have Deborah and Barak singing and hit a singing a

hymn in 1st Samuel 2.

You have Hannah who sings a song of Thanksgiving?

But then but if we go to Revelation 5.

Right.

Yes, revelation 5 revelation 5 John's vision of

The book with seven seals where we see four living creatures and the 24 elders and they're singing a

new song.

So worthy, so when we get to heaven, we're also going to be singing songs.

That we don't even know yet.

Yeah, right sing a new song to the Lord so it so scripturally it can't

just mean only sing the Psalms even though we love the Psalms and The

church that I am an elder at now.

Was that is actually the first church that I've ever been to where we've done song singing.

Yeah, I mean, I mean, it's wonderful.

Let me there was a question about John Snyder.

Yeah.

Did you okay so on the chat?

Okay for with Grace Bible Theological Seminary.

I don't know if he still is I know he was Doing some teaching online teaching.

Just for some of the students at one point a couple years ago, but I don't know that he is anymore.

Yeah, I don't I don't think so.

I don't think he is.

Because I think yeah, I don't.

I've not seen anything that would that would say that so but yeah.

KTN Jesus says speaking of Churches and worship we

walked out women leading and elevation music lyrics.

I had been cringing how for you worship to that good for you.

Exactly.

Good point in this is your worship to that.

Kathy Deming says a church with a high view of Scripture and Christ will not

settle for superficial worship and emotional Experiences.

Amen.

This is true.

That's right.

You speak truth Kathy.

Mm -hmm.

We am into that.

Now this question here was sent by John earlier and I wanted to save it till towards the end to kind of

deal with it.

So question drew do you call yourself a dominionist believe the seven mountains

mandate is?

Post -millennialism the same thing.

No, we would not be friends if you did.

That's right.

Millennialism is not the same thing as the seven mountain mandate now the

the seven mountain mandate is a newer teaching and It actually

it's promoted by Bethel and I hop Kansas City the International House of Prayer, Kansas City.

Which is led by Mike Bickle.

Now the seven mountain mandate was mainly developed by Mike Bickle when he was with the Kansas City prophets.

So it would have been Mike Bickle Bob Jones, and I think oh

gosh Rick Joyner, I think was a part of it.

I don't have defining deception here where I tell you.

Yeah, but but the seven mountain mandate basically is it's says it's the

Christians job to take Dominion over different aspects or areas of

Life so like entertainment and politics and things and once we do that Then we will

usher in the coming of Christ.

That is a heresy 100 % heresy.

And that's actually not what post -millennialists believe now the thing about seven mountain mandate

and Bethel.

The vast majority of Bethel's eschatological teaching is actually Dispensational

premillennialism and I know that because I have had friends who have gone to their school

their ministry schools.

And that's what they teach as far as eschatology now.

They do teach and this is kind of my theory and I talked to Andrew about this before

when.

Right before Jim and I had our conversation on the show my theory is that Bethel

is trying to take from different portions of Eschatology so they take the

there there is a Dominion aspect in post -millennialism.

But that comes through the proclamation of the gospel.

So we take Dominion not by trying to seize these different mountains.

But it's just by the preaching of the gospel the growing of the local church and