Dividing Line/Sheologians Mash Up

Well, welcome to The Dividing Line. Sitting here with half of the Sheologians. What's half of the Sheologians? Is that a Sheol? Sheol. Sheol. Actually, folks have pointed that out. Folks have pointed that out before, that you've got Sheol in Sheologians.

You're talking Sheol herself? Yeah. That makes somebody else Ogins. Thanks for the info, dad. Anyways, welcome to the program. Hey, I know that even though we're live today, many, many, many people are either...

I suppose there's a live feed someplace of the SBC meeting. I don't know. I'm not watching it. I've seen a few things on Twitter. And at least from what I've seen, the morning hasn't been all that good as far as hearing people out.

And that's what you get when you have someone in charge who's been in charge for a year longer than he was supposed to be. I haven't heard back from Tom Buck. And tomorrow would probably be the day to do that.

I'm just not going to be available the vast majority of the day tomorrow. So I'm not sure what's going to happen there. But we continue to pray for the SBC and what's going on there. And I don't know.

Whatever you want. Whatever you want, dad. You know, whatever you want. You've told me more than once.

You've gotten in trouble for calling me dad. Yeah, yes, I have. But then some people are still like,.

Oh, that's your dad? That happens all the time. Yeah, it happened, I think, at the church on Sunday. I was like, did you see Summer? You mean, she at Logan's? Yeah. Is she here? Yeah, over there. That's my daughter.

Really? Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, it's... That's whatever. Yeah. Go team. I don't know. Go team. But no, evidently, yesterday there was a crime. Someone cried at the SBC yesterday. Yeah. And therefore...

Therefore, we'll leave all women or something.

The SBC, Due Process, and Cosmic Justice Now

Well, but therefore the person who allegedly made her cry should not be president of the SBC. And the thing that scares me is how many people actually believe that and don't do any digging in and just simply go, if you make someone cry, you are a bad person.

And I don't remember the first time I ran into this form of argumentation being used against me, but I would struggle responding to it without just going, what grade are you in? Type of a situation. And yet it seems to work really, really well for a lot of people.

And that seems to what's going on at the SBC too. I don't know.

Well, since you're saying it, yeah, this person was, I think is just clearly being used. She's very popular on Twitter. Really? I've never heard of her. I know. She came out of nowhere. I had an either.

She needs a lot of help. There were suicide attempts in her past. She left the faith very publicly in May. And then it was just really convenient that six hours before this statement that she signed, I think it's one of the resolutions about supporting sexual abuse survivors and her name was put on it.

And then like six hours before it was supposed to go live, suddenly she finds her faith again. She hears from Jesus. She goes to the SBC with reporters, approaches Mike Stone. There's all these photos.

It just, there's more than one way to use women. And it Smells like it's set us. Strikes me. And I feel for her. I don't think she should be used this way. I think if she seems to really be struggling genuinely with her faith and she should not be a prompt in getting resolutions passed, she should be being protected.

She should be counseled. Like there should be people around her that aren't using her for a photo op. And it's just really sad.

Well, I hadn't seen the thing from May where she was talking about basically being saved so she could heal and things like that. And it's like, these things are supposed to be handled In a certain way.

In a certain way, in a certain context where people would actually know everybody that's involved. Once you drag it outside of that, it just becomes a royal mess. And yet that's exactly, well, okay. I've said this a million times before.

So I apologize for saying it again, but when you buy into the cosmic justice now idea that there's not gonna be justice done on that day, that everything has to be done now. Then what happens is you don't trust local parameters for how these things go.

And so you have to bring in outsiders. You have to bring in unbelievers. You have to local church just isn't enough because, hey, it's true. There have been bad local churches and there have been bad.

I mean, the SBC isn't the best in having a robust ecclesiology. Let's just, I'll just be straight up front about that. The SBC tends to emphasize the deacon board model with the pastor is sort of a hireling type thing.

And that pastor can end up with massive amount of power. And so there's a potential for abuse there. No question about it. So what do you do in light of that? Well, if you don't believe that someday justice will be done in the most appropriate and proper way, that is at the SBC, then you have to throw out the biblical standard and come up with a new way of doing things.

And that's what people are saying you need to do because, hey, if we keep doing things the old way, someone might get away with it. And if you really have bought into this is it, you die, that there's nothing after that, then I understand why you try to do cosmic justice when you don't have the ability to do cosmic justice.

But that's when you start arguing against that silly biblical thing called due process and stuff like that. Because that helps people get away. Well, the biblical standard is you do not convict an innocent person.

And the guilty may get away with it in this life, but they will not get away with it before the throne of God. And that actually informed our entire way of thinking and law for a long, long time. And now it doesn't inform it at all in our society and evidently not in the church.

So I am obviously disappointed to see, I don't know, it's like watching the last two months before a general election in the United States, all the same political maneuvering and poisoning, everything else going on.

It's going on in the SBC. And it's not just the SBC, there's politics in every single denomination. Let's just be honest, let's say it's a given. That's just the way it is. But they're using a lot of the stuff that you all have been talking about for a long time as far as you're seeing the intersectionality coming in and intersectional exegesis and hearing differing voices and all the rest of this type of stuff everywhere.

And it could not have just happened since 2018. This was being, the preparation being done, the land was being prepared long before this. And did you hear Doug's blog, May blog where he talked about Baptist baseball?

No. Oh, oh, oh, you missed a fun one. Yeah, I'm good for this. Baptist baseball. Baptist baseball. He commented on the Russell Moore letters that were leaked.

Yes, okay, I did read that, yeah. Oh, okay, all right.

And it was only semi tongue-in-cheek. He was just basically saying, you know, this sort of looks like it was really intentional. And if this is the case, then if all this terrible, horrible stuff is going on, how come Russell Moore wasn't saying anything about it before he left the ERLC?

You know, just real basic Baptist baseball. It's not just Baptist who play baseball. I mean, there's Presbyterian baseball, there's all kinds of different levels of Presbyterian baseball.

I think the General Assembly is going on also, or it's about to be going on. Which one? For the PCA. PCA, or? I think the PCA General Assembly is going on as well.

They're not nearly as exciting as the PCA. Because you understand that there is a chance of a fist bump with the PCA. It's not going to happen with the PCA. It is a little bit less exciting. Yeah, yeah, but it's going on.

So yeah, it's that time of year. And so I'm going to be watching it very, very closely. And I'm sure that most everybody else is tuned into that right now, unless you've just thrown your hands up in despair and gone, oh, nevermind.

Because last I was seeing was Tom Astle arguing that there needed to be a discussion about these things, that many people had come to have that discussion, and then they were basically being ruled out of order.

And so if that's the best way in the world to create a split, is if you know all these people have come. And I think they have a record number of people. If you know all these people have come, and then you say, yeah, well, we're not really interested in that.

No, I'm not going to talk about that. And they're just going to go, well, we are going to talk about that, and it's just going to be under a different banner, and bye-bye. And unfortunately, what always ends up happening then is all the buildings and the institutions that have been built up for years and years and years end up in the hands of the people on the left, and the people on the right have to go and rebuild everything again, and 35 years later

The Politics of Denominational Drift and the Need for Local Church Foundations

Start stripping off some of these? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's sort of how it ends up going, which right now, given what's going on in our country, probably isn't all that bad an idea. The smaller your footprint and the smaller your target.

Though, to be honest with you, I was looking at what was the gentleman's name when I was not looking at that. Oh, hey, hey, look at that.

We're on Twitter, dude. Oh, great. I'm trying not to read my notifications today.

Chris Hanholtz tweeted a screenshot of us, but the pastor up in, I had it saved, but you know how that works with Twitter? Twitter hates me. Twitter hates me.

Yeah, Pastor Tim Stevens. Tim Stevens, yeah, in Calgary. Okay, so you saw this picture,.

But just a few minutes ago, I actually listened to the audio. There was audio of this, and he started talking to the cops, and this guy, this very guy, the cop, argued back to him that Jesus said, where two or three of you are gathered together, there I am with you.

So he wants to try to redefine the church as just two or three. And you know what? He's not alone in doing that. That's the sad thing, is that there have been many evangelicals that have given him that same idea, but it was, well, Jesus also said, two or three are gathered together, I'm with them, but we're not gonna talk about that.

We're just two of you. So he throws out the quote, isn't interacting with what Pastor Stevens said about the gathering of the church, and it's not just two or three. And then immediately defaults to the, we're just gonna like that.

And I saw another one, one of the reporters followed, after they dragged him off, one of the reporters followed two of the cops, including the lady cop, back to their car, and he asked the question I would like to ask, and that is, is this, why are you doing this?

Is this why you became a cop, to arrest people like this? And the lady said, no, it's not. And then just shut up. That was a lady cop? That was a lady cop. Said, no, it's not. Wow. So look, I'm sure they do not enjoy this.

Some of them. Some of them. But when is one of them gonna finally stand up and say, I'm not gonna do this. I'm not gonna do this. And it's like Another job's on the line. That's the point, they've got a mortgage.

And when you simply say, yeah, but I've gotta pay the bills, and how is that any different than every other abusive situation in the past where people have said, well, you know, okay, I'll be the jackbooted thug because I gotta pay my bills.

Right, right. Sort of destroys the, wow, we're so thankful for you running to the danger type thing, because it's just become a matter of paying your bills. So pray for Pastor Tim Stevens and his family.

Second time he's been arrested, and the thing that I think people need to recognize, they were meeting in secret. They were not meeting in a building. I did not know that. Yes, they were meeting in secret.

So they're arresting So how did they get caught? Well, I don't know, but there is a long history, sadly, under the Soviet Union. That was one of the greatest dangers was when someone expressed the desire to meet them in a secret location.

Who were they? And could you trust them? And there were many, many times people betrayed. Many, many times people betrayed.

I'm just convinced that no one might think that this could happen here. So even though it's happening just across the border, I think most of my peers are like, well, that's Canada. That's Canada. That's Canada.

So that's not America. I think that's what most people my age think. So yeah, that's not gonna bode well for us, is it? No, no.

It's the exact same argumentation, the exact same situation exists here. I have not been able to follow up on it, but the woman who was going to criticize the Michigan Attorney General, and appear on Tucker Carlson, did you hear about this?

Uh-uh. Who was arrested and dragged off to jail. For what? Because there are certain states where as long as the same party is in control of every aspect of state government, they can do whatever. And they will do it.

And it's in the United States, too. As well as in Alberta. So if you think it won't happen here, we've got one or two little hurdles I gotta jump over a little bit more. But I know last year, I was sitting there going, yeah, the cops, how many of them are really, I mean, who becomes cops?

But the people who believe in the Constitution, stuff like that. No. And no. Everyone that I know. No? No. Oh, I've known those states, and I sort of thought they were the majority.

I don't think they're the majority anymore. No, not anymore.

It doesn't need to be the majority. If it was 15%, it would make sense. Yeah. But it's not. It's not. So anyway, so there's the SBC stuff, and that's stuff going on there. And we pray for Pastor Stevens and his family.

I mean, it's gotta be pretty rough on the kids and things like that. I mean, they're gonna grow up with a very serious fate. Let's just put it that way. If you see dad being dragged off more than once, you're gonna grow up with a pretty serious fate.

And maybe that will be helpful for a lot of folks, to grow up with a pretty serious fate. So you never saw me dragged off, so I apologize for that. Just dragged on the internet. Well, that is every day.

That is every day. In fact, I had a dear brother who was, since I mentioned it, but a dear brother at church. Was that last night? No, today's Tuesday. Oh, okay. That was the day before last. Tuesday.

Kind of. Tuesday. This is gonna be a wild week. Anyway, I had a brother talking to me and basically apologizing for having gone postal with some people. I got upset with some people because they were coming after me.

And I am currently the apostate du jour in certain Facebook pages and groups and things like that. And I don't see most of it. You seem to see more of it than I do. I'm not sure what it is, but I have

People send it to me. Oh, people send it to you? Yeah. They're afraid to send it to you. Not at all. It's a no. You don't have to do that. I know. Well, I do need to know sort of what's going on a little bit.

Good, you guys. Yeah, yeah, so. But no, he was saying that how do you handle when people are just, I mean, you've been in ministry for coming up on 40 years and you've got all this long track where you're teaching this, that, and the other thing.

And then all of a sudden one little thing comes up and they're just willing to just, you're gone, you're history, you're done. We don't want you around anymore. We don't want you part of our club, et cetera, et cetera.

And I'm just sort of like, well, I'll be perfectly honest with you. You give to people, you give credit to people's criticism that their life in ministry demands. So if it's a faceless, nameless person on the internet, I'm sorry, if Jeff comes to me and says, you blew it, okay, he's got standing to be able to say something like that.

But people who have no earthly idea of who I am, and the vast majority of people think that I am the most straight-laced, boring, sit-around-reading-Greek-all-day type person. And then they ask you and they don't believe you.

Taking Criticism Seriously Without Confusing Ideas and Persons

Yeah, no, I think most of the problem right now is that you, reformed folk are very, we're very tribal and I think you're in, if you accept the wrong crowd, then all of a sudden you're just playing for the wrong team.

And so I think a lot of people want to believe that since you're on apologia now, that you've changed. And I think you're not really at the cool kids table. And so that means that you're allowed to be misunderstood.

And I just can't tell you how often I come across things, but I do think because you've been doing this for so long, because your focus is apologetics, and there's a lot of people who don't understand that.

They have a very kind of like ivory tower philosophical, like they study it for the sake of enjoying philosophy and not so much putting feet on it. And I do think that makes a really big difference in how you view things.

And at the end of the day, I think that you've been doing this for so long and you are so unbothered, so long. You're so unbothered that I think people read that as like flippancy, whereas you just have a different focus.

And I think you are obnoxiously consistent. Like I can't get you to do anything new. I can't even get you to eat anything new. And you still haven't changed.

I'm trying to think of something that I've eaten recently that's new and I really get it.

No, there's three meals that you make for you. It's tacos and pasta, just kidding. And then tacos again. And also I like cheeseburgers. Pasta. I'm not kidding, cheeseburgers. Anyway, the point is I think that there's just a lot of, the philosophy versus the apologetic.

You are so much more about what you do with your philosophy than just philosophy for the sake of philosophy. And I don't think a lot of people understand that. But like you were saying, Jeff was saying the other day too, there's criticism that we should take and we should take criticism seriously from people that we know have life behind it.

They have action behind it. They're doing things with their philosophy. They're putting legs on their beliefs. And if that's not something that you're busy doing, then your criticism just doesn't really, it's not something to really take very seriously.

And that doesn't say, that's not to say that the person saying it isn't worth anything. But what are you doing? If I'm doing this so wrong, show me how it's done right. And I would love to see how it's done right if I don't know what that is anymore.

Well, you posted a meme, I think on Facebook or Twitter, or maybe both, I don't know. Where you About garlic? No, well, you did do something about garlic. Yes, you did. That's the important stuff. Okay.

But you asked Eric about what the dust up is. Oh, yeah. About simplicity. Yeah. And what I think is the Thomistic, the inappropriate Thomistic extension of the true documents, which is very common in the West, but we'll talk about it.

Unfortunately, we'll probably end up having to talk about it a whole lot more than people want to talk about. Anyway, and you posted the picture of the lady, just doing the eye roll and walking away, because I guess you didn't find the topic to be

No.

Ubersimplified? I just thought it was so, I know what you believe, and so I've just seen so many people saying the most insane things that are not grounded in reality. And again, I do think some of it's miscommunication, a lack of having context, maybe.

But You do so much. I just, yeah. I got my unbotheredness from somewhere.

That's the way I was saying, I know that.

Yeah, well, some of it is that, but I just, it's so painful to see people that we should be, we have the same worldview, we have the same conclusions. And it's not even, it's friendly fire. Why are we shooting our own?

And I think a lot of people have the background of like, well, I've been in churches for a long time, and I've been in places where this doctrine was abused, or it wasn't taught, therefore I need it to happen this way.

I need it to be talked about this way. And it just seems so unhelpful. I just, I can't believe what I'm seeing coming from people.

But to be honest, with this subject, I challenge you to find almost anyone who was at a reformed conference from 1985 to 2015 that spoke on this subject. Yeah. I mean, yeah, no, it just didn't happen.

But now it's the new thing. And we tend to get really focused on Really excited. Oh, this is exciting, and I had never seen this before, and this is it, this is important. And then 10 years later, you're going, remember when?

And they're like, what? I don't know. We were all mad about this thing. Yeah, it's like, oh, no, not really. That's one advantage of age. It's one of the reasons, I think, I don't just get all worked up about stuff, is I'm like, yeah, but 20 years ago, it was something else.

And everybody was all excited about stuff back then, too. Five, 10 years from now, we're gonna be going, what were you talking about?

Right, anybody remember the emergent church?

Yeah, yeah, actually, I do, I do. Right, like They're still out there. They just morphed into something else. Right. This got swallowed up into something else. So anyways, so now, Shiel O 'Gins has been going a whole lot longer than you ever thought it would be.

Cheers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, it has. And so now, you have discovered that you have to find a way to start recovering ground, but doing it in a way you didn't quite do it last time, finding new ways of communicating with people and stuff like that.

It's not all that easy, is it? It's not that hard. Oh, see, there you go. There you go, there you go. Well, all right, we're done with that conversation pretty quick.

It's not all that hard. I just mean, my honest, I think Joy and I are, my honest take now is that things have changed so much culturally in our church since we started. That That was only four years ago, right?

Yeah, I mean, come up on five in September. Five. Five in September, because we started on September of 2016. And of course, that's when a lot of things changed. And I think there was a time when we first started where we thought what we needed to be was, we needed to speak persuasively about what we believe.

And that's just not the case anymore. And what I mean by that is that we're not so interested in changing people's minds, but I just want to encourage people. So our audience, they're extremely well-read.

They know the faith. They know That's because you do book clubs. The confessions we do, but we do book clubs. We do book clubs. They're extremely well-read. They're smart women. And what I'm finding is that so many reformed women are hurting for real community and discipleship.

We have so many listeners in Canada who haven't been to church since last year. And so they want community. They want discipleship. They're not getting it from their churches. It's super sad. And I don't know, I guess just, I'm not so concerned about convincing anyone of anything.

What I want to do and what Joy wants to do is to just encourage women. Like, here's how you live like a Christian. And so that, I mean, you can talk about that forever.

You don't feel any pressure to be coming up with novel new stuff?

No, I don't listen. If I come up with something new, it's probably wrong. Like, I don't want to come up with anything new or novel. I want to express the same ancient faith well. And it's when people discover new doctrines and new things that there tends to be a problem.

So no, Joy and I, we're not interested in doing that at all. And of course our biggest problem remains that sometimes we just, we want to do, like, I'm going to cover a really weird true crime story in a couple of weeks.

Because sometimes I want to. Like, I want to tell you about this weird thing that happened in the woods. And like, sometimes that's what we want to talk about. And so, but sometimes your brain needs a break, all right?

And we have a good time doing that. But yeah, I don't have that pressure anymore. In 2017, I wanted to be persuasive because I saw critical race theory. I saw intersectionality. It always happens in the women's groups first.

And so I saw it there and I wanted to persuade people. I wanted them to know what it was. I wanted them to stay clear of it. And that really brought about the split because I had a lot of listeners that absolutely hate us now because we took that stance back in 2017.

And that, you know, it's sad, but that's fine. Bye.

Oh, we've lost folks over, well, we've lost folks over decades. Let's just put it that way. Yeah, that's fine. Lots of, I can't tell you how many people love to come up to me and say, I was once a big fan.

Now I'm, and then, you know, name a religion. Now that's somehow meant to be an argument. Like I've proven you wrong by going in that direction.

I had someone tell me they're a Catholic because of you.

Oh, I've had lots of former Catholics tell me they're not Catholics.

Cool, so that's nice of you. But yeah, you know, people, I just feel like if you're in ministry right now or if you want to be busy at your church, like what people need the most right now is discipleship.

And they need that first and foremost by knowing their Bibles. Like if you can just, if you could just, what if Christian, thank you guys. Okay, remember how the Reformation really happened because people could read the Bible?

Like if Christian were just like in their Bibles and committed to their churches, like just think of the revival that would happen. Like you want to, people like put up tents when they want revivals and it's like, just go home and read your Bible and get other people to read their Bible and then do that in community.

And like, things are going to change. And that's really, that's really our focus now is like how do we encourage Christians to look like Christians? What else is there? I don't know what else is there.

Bible revival. Bible revival. There you go, yeah. Yeah, you know, I, did you see the second part of Jess' conversation with, I kept queuing it up and I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet. It was great.

Was it good?

Yeah, you should totally listen to it. I need to. He did a great job that first time.

Especially because he had been attacked by some Reformed folks for the first one. I've sort of.

What, he's Jess. Fired off into the rounds. That's what's going to happen with you, yeah. Yes, no, it was fantastic. Really, really excellent discussion. Got more into worldview issues, which is obviously the stuff that I think Jess is strongest on.

And he did a fantastic job. Super encouraging. Who's that? Oh, Clementine.

Where's Clementine? Do you want to say hi? Want to say hi to my audience? Okay. Don't be, don't act like you're crazy. See, there's a camera right there. Thousands of people looking at you. She just wants to find her charger.

She just wants to find her charger. Oh, is that your Super Nintendo thing? It's Mario. Mario, correct? Oh, okay. Will you go find your charger? He's wanting to say hi. Am I being offended? Because you've been on the dividing line before.

In fact, when you were in school. You don't remember it, but your first words on the dividing line, do you remember? Shoes? Shoes off. Shoes off. Yeah. Shoes off. That was pretty cute. Yeah, because you still had your shoes on and you felt like you should take them off.

So, shoes off. Shoes off. For a second. So, go find your charger. Love you. Try to, try to, try to get it. You can't stop her talking at other times, but then one time, you want to. This isn't the topic she wants to talk about.

It's not Minecraft, so. Oh, which I don't, I said nothing about. I could not ask. Keep it that way. Yeah. Just keep it that way. That's probably best. Yep. Yeah, no, I, obviously, much has changed over the past few years, and it's going to take a lot of wisdom to know how to, right now, we have, we still have access to people.

And so, you look at what Apology Studios is putting out, and you've actually got Apology Radio, and Cultish, and all the other programs that are being worked on, and special stuff, and regular stuff, and, you know, Zach's program, all the stuff that we're doing, and it's great to be able to put that stuff out there, but the time's coming.

The time is simply coming when that's not going to be allowed for the obvious reason that we consider it to be hate speech. And what are we going to do then? How are we going to have, if you haven't already established sources of sound teaching and encouragement locally, and I realize there are some of you in some rough places.

I mean, just, you sort of feel like you're pretty much alone out there, and I get it. That's why I've been saying for a long time, you need to be downloading stuff, archiving stuff. If they're in my debates or stuff like that, if you find them to be useful, you need to have them on jump drives, you need to have those jump drives in static bags, and maybe not just left out in the open.

You need to be archiving stuff, because right now it's so easy for you just to go, well, I'll just look at it on YouTube or whatever. It may not be there tomorrow. I mean, you just don't know. But the point is, I'm also concerned about folks who, I'm glad that we can provide this service.

I'm glad that we can talk to people. I'm glad that we can be encouragement to the providing lines around the world for decades. But if we're not building a foundation for the future, it always has to be, what have you done for me now?

I think that's a problem amongst reformed evangelicals, if that's a nice broad term. It's the what have you done for me now syndrome, which I think is across the culture that's coming to the church. Instead of really looking at people who have proven themselves over time, it's the, well, here's something new over here, here's something new over there.

No, it was people who've been consistent over time and laid solid foundations. But that's where it's at, and that's what's gonna last through whatever it is we're going to be enduring in the next generations of that.

That has to be said, it's got real foundations. And I'm not gonna sit here and say, I know exactly how that's gonna be done. We've just sort of mumbled and stumbled our way through it because I'm gonna tell you when I was your age or even younger, which I was once, I know it's hard for you to remember.

Well, I'm old now. Oh, well, yeah, yeah, well, as you've got... Yeah, I'm old now. So I'm getting hand signals from... Which one? Oh. Commenting on your...

That I'm old. No, actually she was saying no. Oh, okay, she wants candy.

She doesn't like candy. She doesn't like candy. Yeah, she wants something. Anyway, in the 1980s, you did not have this scenario. You did not have the idea of ministering in a world where you wouldn't know who boys and girls were.

Where marriage had been completely, not only redefined, but redefined out of existence in essence and turned into something completely different. And you did not even foresee, some people did. Francis Schaefer did.

Schaefer, I was about to say, Schaefer did. Schaefer did, Rush Dooley did, and there were lots of fiction writers who nailed it long, long ago. But that wasn't a part of our reality. We didn't, I wasn't raised to think about my great-great-grandchildren.

Well, maybe that's why we're in the place that we're in. Like maybe not thinking generationally is having a cascading effect on the culture.

Yeah, I'm not gonna say that's not the case. I think there's lots of things my generation didn't do. I'm not sure it's so much the things that we did as the things that we didn't do. Huh, yeah. And the emphases that we did not have because there was sort of a ceasefire with the culture.

In essence, there was a, it was more of a Cold War, but it wasn't much of a war at all. And I think that's where the myth of neutrality became so universal amongst the thinking of so many Christians that we've just got our sphere and you've got your sphere and everything's gonna be cool and you don't have to make any claims about what's supposed to be going on in your sphere of things and all the rest of that kind of stuff, so.

Hand signal. Hand signals, I don't know what that was. A little distraction there off to the side. It's great having munchkins around. But anyways, I think that does explain how things have changed so much and are changing so rapidly even now.

And so for most of us, it's like we're in uncharted waters. And that's why I try to be as gracious and as granting of grace to people who are struggling with these types of things is because none of us can claim to have the final word on exactly how we're supposed to handle every little bit of this cultural revolution.

It's finding that balance because we obviously have people that are trying to drag us off into not our land on this side. And then you've got the other people on this side that are just loading up flamethrowers and are ready to take on all the brothers and sisters and treat them that way.