July 22, 2004

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. And now with today's topic here is James White.

The Perpetual Virginity of Mary and the Problem of Historical Continuity

So it requires you to have a topic. I don't have one. So we'll sort of let you handle that at eight seven seven seven five three thirty three. Forty-one. I haven't heard of any rolling blackouts today.

It is a hundred and nine and I don't know about this year has been very odd. In fact, they're talking about last night on the news. One of the weatherman was saying yeah, I'm hearing all these complaints about how hot it is and Yet in reality, then you've started putting the stuff up on the screen.

I remembered this I had actually been telling folks that in reality. It's it's been it's been a good bit Cooler this summer than it was last summer, especially in July. We were seeing 116 117 stuff like that.

And it just you know, it just hasn't gotten up that high in fact the the Average so far is like five and a half degrees cooler than last year. But for me it has just felt really really really hot and I'm not a hundred percent Sure, why it is.

It may be a government conspiracy. Maybe it's a terrorist action or possibly Possibly we have something like a Jesuit plot and Perpetual, you know 20th century is a in a nutshell You got five centuries of early fathers that upheld the perpetual of virginity of Mary.

Oh, really? Who in the first second? And third century thought that as a dogma I'd be interested in knowing that was even though 20th century solo up. It's scrolled by there I guess I could make this a little bit larger window here to do.

So all the scripturists say otherwise Obviously didn't hold the soul scriptural alone or the scriptures don't seem to say what Protestants say that it does. So, let's let's see if we understand this argument, I'm just reading this in channel and so, you know, I don't think we have a Anything, you know sitting Waiting to be discussed.

So here we've got a Roman Catholic and channel and first of all, we Excellent illustrations here of how not to read early church history. First of all, we say we have five centuries of and I'm assuming this is from the beginning to at some point I mean, I don't know up through Jerome.

That's like five centuries there, but I mean How does that work? I'm not sure how that works, but the idea being they all upheld the perpetual virginity of Mary well, no, they didn't in fact most of them didn't discuss it and It arises primarily through the arises together with the concept of monasticism and the unbiblical view of sexuality comes along with that so that's wrong a.

Secondly, well and since somebody has believed something that means soul scriptura must not be true. Well, if somebody believes something, let's say someone believes. Oh, let's use a real let's talk about the Pope and Some of the things the Pope has believed like when the Pope said that Satan had been seen in Germany in the form of a toad That somehow impacts soul scriptura.

Well, it might indicate that that the Pope's not functioning on the basis of soul scriptura. That's quite true. And of course he he wouldn't be.

But.

Does that somehow mean that the scriptures are unclear? Well, he was reading the Bible. Certainly anyone who reads the Bible should come up with the right understanding of it. Really? I know many Mormons who read the Bible and because of oh It's an extra scriptural authority.

Oh, there it is because of an extra scriptural authority. They don't actually listen to what the Bible says and what it teaches. Hmm. So you mean there might have been people who well, might there have been some people in the early church who were ignorant of the Bible, I mean we do have that odd statement that that is made in Scripture about untaught and Unstable men distorting the scriptures seem to have been happening even during the course of the Apostles ministry.

Hmm well if they were there during the Apostles ministry, then What basis do we have to think that. Maybe they? Didn't continue in the church and you know what? I bet untaught and unstable men could write things.

I bet they could write things. I don't know about you but look at the internet and We have their clear evidence.

That.

Untaught and unstable men write things that they can type. Even if they use the hunt-and-peck method they can still type and. So there you go with that and so. Maybe some of these early church fathers didn't know the Bible really well.

In fact, you know in teaching on the development of patristic theology this last time we noted that the wide variety of Insight and an understanding of the Bible That we could detect even in the very first writings That are presented to us outside the New Testament.

I'm not talking about the Delvey. That's supposed to be devil. I bet and a frog. I'm talking about church fathers. I read you the list to affirm what the Bible or so were told say otherwise. Having the foggiest idea what on earth that means.

That's not in the English language and it's not a language that I actually can recognize. And so I have been talking about church fathers and we have some church fathers who are insightful and know the scriptures and.

Then we have other church fathers who don't seem to know the scriptures at all. I think I asked the same Roman Catholic That if this is a dogma that has been delivered To the church in light of for example, St. Thessalonians 2 and if he understood if he views it that way.

Then.

Wouldn't that also mean the bodily assumption? Had to be delivered in the same way. And can you find those same early church fathers affirming? That is a dogma and of course the fact matter is you you can't and.

It's not there. Well, anyway, eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one is the phone number. Hey, did you see the article? Someone sent it to me today.

That.

Researchers, I think it was University of Chicago or something like that Have come to the conclusion that sometime but maybe even by the end of this year Protestants will no longer be the majority in the United States.

That the percentage will drop below 50 Now problem is what they define as Protestants is Basically any semi Christian religion that has arisen since time of the Reformation so they include the Mormons in there and stuff like that so if you actually talk about historic Protestants who actually know something about justification or something like that, then obviously those kind of Protestants are way in the minority and It was interesting.

It said the no religion category has just rocketed skyrocketed as far as percentage goes. And when you if you would add into that the number of people who Functionally have no religion not just well I don't call myself a Baptist because I went to a Baptist Church once with Aunt Selma and therefore a Baptist Doesn't work that way.

And if you added those people in Wow, we'd be talking about extremely small percentage of folks who really honestly Are our Protestants today and of course that that group has all sorts of issues. That's well these days as to what in the world they believe.

In fact, I was I was reading fact. I'm gonna bring this up. I Was reading a fascinating blog article and you know how blogs are blogs are no blogs are very bloggy and The the current blog article at a reformed Catholicism.

Which again the the wonderful oxymoronic? How in the world can we make a sense out of this reformed Catholicism?

Calm.

Has an article from a a scholar who teaches at Montreat College, Pennsylvania. And Well well known to me anyways and the the first Quotation is from 1st John 2 19, which is rather fascinating says they went out from us.

But they did not belong to us for if they had belonged to us. They would have remained with us however, they went out so it might be made clear that none of them belong to us and There's nothing provided there.

As far as the translation goes, maybe it was the authors. I don't know but that's very important passage there seems to be a us and a them and It's interesting. We're talking here about people who went out from the fellowship in John's day and they were teaching Christological heresies and yet they were still baptized.

Properly at some point which wouldn't that make them brothers, but well anyway and it says um I Have been thinking a lot lately about the state of the church and our relations with Rome. I Evangelical church is beyond all recovery both morally and theologically and that includes my own denomination the PCA as I look at the ruins which surround me.

I often wonder where and when did it all go haywire? When did the wagon lose its wheels? It often seems like God is not with us as though we Like the disobedient Israelites of old have gone to the battlefield without the blessing Lord.

We have not listened to prophetic advice. Don't go because the Lord is not among you and will you will be defeated by your enemies numbers 1442. I'm just reading something the channel here. I have a new idea of the value line.

We can have dr Oakley call folks at home that are in channel mass.

Hmm.

You know now I think about I think we might have a number of these folks phone numbers That are in channel. Honestly, I think we do That Happen. Call local Arizona Sun about churches and have a massage for secretaries about the Trinity.

That's that's that's good. Mm-hmm. Okay back to reading this insightful article. I reminded the promise of Jesus I'm with you always the end of the age Matthew 28 20. Why then does it seem like Jesus is not now with the evangelical church?

May I stop there and Suggest maybe in passing that it's the definition of the church. That's a problem here and not necessarily anything anything else, um, I Have a feeling it has something to do with our relations With Rome.

I'm going back to reading here. That's what the author says. I have a feeling it has something to do with our relations with Rome. Please do not misunderstand me. I am NOT calling for us to return to Rome gotta get that in there.

I Suggesting that what the evangelical church needs is to return to Geneva and Wittenberg and by so doing we will necessarily change our relationship with Rome. Geneva and Wittenberg. Geneva and Wittenberg.

Oh Geneva Calvin. If Calvin had wandered into Catholic territories, what would have happened to Calvin? Um, oh burned at the stake. That's what would have happened. Okay, and Wittenberg. Yes. Yes Wittenberg.

We've we've all read.

Pope Pope.

That the Pope's bowl of excommunication there and some about wild boar in a vineyard and Lord arising and didn't sound good didn't didn't sound good at all. No didn't didn't sound good at all. Anyway.

Okay, so we have to go back to that. All right. I thought we had made some some Progress there. Here's my proposal. The God has made a promise to be with his church. That church exists always in some visible form.

It was an agreed premise three formers that the Apostolic Church the first century continues visible existence within the developing Catholic Church of the second through 16th centuries. They recognized the true flock of God within the Catholic Church, which it was their objective to reform now.

Just in passing I've seen this particular Scholar interact with a pastor on this subject and just absolutely get pummeled right and left with extensive citations that Calvin especially had a very clear view as to The flock of God and things like that, but I continue on this is where the Reformers differed from the Anabaptists.

Didn't take long to get the Anabaptist terms. The Anabaptists lacked a sense of historical continuity with the Catholic Church. They were schismatics the same spirit as those condemned by the Apostle John long ago.

Let's stop right there. So the Apostle John. The Apostle John is condemning schism. I Thought John had said that there was. The purpose that they went out was so that it might be made manifest that they were not.

Of.

The the people of God. Hmm, that's that's odd. I had never seen that as a view of Passage it was condemning schism before. Well, let me continue on. Therefore God's promise of his presence and blessing could not apply to them as It applied to Roman Catholics Greek Orthodox and Protestant Reformers the main branches of visible church.

So Here we have being Presented to us a concept that says that if you don't have a sense of historical continuity the Catholic Church Then God's promise of his presence and blessing could not apply to them.

Keep that in mind because that that that explains a lot if that's if that's what you need Then. Wow, okay. This is why Calvin Luther opposed the Anabaptist was such a vigor. They saw in them a danger both the political order and spiritual health.

There's a lot of reasons they opposed the Anabaptists. I don't remember that being Central but well, you know we continue on. Maybe this is the essence the difference between the Reformers and contemporary Evangelicalism is Evangelicalism closer in spirit to the schismatic and a Baptist that it is the vision of the Reformers.

The Reformers recognize their historical connection with Rome in the Catholic Church whereas it seems a contemporary evangelicalism is courting the favor and casting its lot in with a version of Christianity which lacks any meaningful sense of its indebtedness to and continuity with the Church of Rome.

Hmm. Well, that's interesting the Church of Rome That would be the modern Church of Rome with all of its modern creeds and beliefs and dogmas and things like that, which I thought the Reformers can you imagine what Calvin would have said about the concept of papal infallibility or the bodily assumption of Mary or Those types of things that have been defined long after the time the Reformation.

Oh, well that I'm sure the author meant to get to that but But didn't get to that. So we continue on here Church of Rome keep the mind the Church of Rome. How is it that the sectarian spirit of anabaptism has managed to invade the camp?

Could it be? That the ease with which Presbyterians get along with Baptists in our evangelical culture is a sign that something is desperately wrong. Now if I just completely lost you Don't feel too badly.

I Want to read that one again because you some of you are sitting there going you said what? Could it be that the ease with which? Presbyterians get along with Baptists in our evangelical culture is a sign that something is desperately wrong.

Yes, folks. There you have it you see what's happened here, of course is that a a Certain view of the Reformation has been turned into what Presbyterians as a whole are supposed to believe and the Anabaptists have become the Baptists now in the process the Christological heresy of first John 2 has been transferred and Toto with its alleged schismatic elements into The Anabaptists and into Baptists as well and of course this particular author had said earlier that if he were to give someone Advice.

That.

He would rather have them in a Catholic Church than a Baptist Church. This is a Presbyterian speaking and That's that's that's fascinating I I continue on here. In other words like the Anabaptist evangelicalism has lost its Catholic roots and Displays in its words and actions the very spirit of schism which st. John Calvin and Luther opposed knows.

That was st. John comma Calvin and Luther not st. John Calvin, which is which would really Well show an ecumenical spirit. Wouldn't we did a debate once where a Catholic fella Said that as a result of the stuff on justification we could now pray to st. Martin Luther.

That was just one of those interesting evenings.

So.

Anyway, so we continue on here, let's see and we wonder why God is not with us. He has promised to be with his church the Catholic Church, which has existed in visible form through the ages. God has not promised the blessing of his presence amongst schismatics who lack any historical connection with the Catholic Church.

Hmm. I've been told that if Rome's the mother church. Then we all came out of Rome and therefore we all have that alleged historical connection. I'm I don't know I'm getting a little confused here. Therefore as long as we continue to fail in word and deed.

Here's this is a this is a person who teaches in a Presbyterian school. Let's listen in carefully. Therefore as long as we continue to fail in word and deed to give all due deference and honor to Rome our mother We will not be able to claim the blessing and presence of God and I propose that therein lies the key to a second Reformation.

Whoa, there you go, folks. It is not overly surprising at this same individual does not believe that that there is a specific a specific enough clarity to soteriology to remove Rome's teaching from from being considered to be a true gospel, so that should give you an idea of where the Reformed Catholics are coming from.

Let's get rid of the clarity of the gospel and And go from there someone just asked is The doc quoting Lance Armstrong.

You know.

Sometimes I See what people say in channel, and I just want to go what did that come from? Maybe Lance Armstrong at the very end of a really tough stage and climbing a 7 .9 grade or something might come up with something like this because I can assure you That most of his blood is in his legs at that particular point in time, but I don't know that's this is not Lance Armstrong, and I'm really not sure how anybody came up with the idea.

And that does by the way raise the interesting issue. Some of us in in this odd world do really really really enjoy following the something called bicycle racing and if any of you are Aware of the fact that right now Lance Armstrong is is only three stages away from winning his sixth consecutive Tour de France.

You might go. Oh who cares, but you know it's funny Americans. Don't really have a proper attitude an aspect on this. People look at like the Boston Marathon, and what's the winning time the Boston Marathon to something two hours something?

Is that is that about what it is? You know you you run it one time, and then you recover and you go do other things. These guys started the July 4th weekend there's 20 stages they get I think three rest days and.

Like today today's stage was just over six hours in length. Yesterday they did a time trial up L 'Alpe d 'Huez that that was nine miles at an average grade of 7 .9

That's.

Let's face it 99 of the people listening to me right now would have a hard time Pushing a bicycle on your feet walking up that hill with a bicycle most of a lot of folks listening right now could not even do that and So so to ride up that hill and to ride up that hill at the speeds they do.

Absolutely incredible today. Armstrong won his third Stage victory in a row and Did so I think he was angry. I think he really was angry. I think something happened between he and Ulrich and Clotin and and So he he crushed everybody at the end and as as as he's been doing for quite some time now I Mean these people go up these huge mountains, and then they come down like 50 55 60 miles an hour in fact.

One of Lance's teammates died back in the mid 90s. He crashed out on a descent went headfirst into a into a concrete abutment and and died. So it's not it. It's a 20 20 plus day marathon that these guys are doing that just in the in terms of sports incredible and To survive a Tour de France is amazing to he this is Lance's 10th Tour de France and to win Five in a row and if I'm unless I'm wrong here the only people ever done that were Merckx, you know Indurain and now Armstrong and he's going for number six and He's gonna do it unless he crashes out I mean he's not gonna have you know unless he crashes out in the time trial tomorrow or something he's gonna do it.

He's put everybody else way behind him, and he's gonna do it, so it's an amazing thing. It truly is it is is just unbelievable in the history of sport. And I did want to mention one thing. I'm actually gonna make an application here.

We're gonna take our break and then come back with our callers, but I Have to admit that I get a little I don't know I don't have a whole lot of sympathy when some big professional golfer like I heard I could be wrong about this.

But I've heard some professional golfers who've complained about a cell phone going off in fact I think that Matt with Tiger Woods. You know he was getting ready to do a putt or something and somebody's cell phone went off in the gallery and I guess his his caddy went over and grabbed the phone or or Whatever and I'm just like.

Wow.

Compare that with what Armstrong did yesterday for example in climbing L 'Alpe d 'Huez.

And.

There are five hundred thousand people lining this little teeny tiny road and he literally He literally has a matter of feet between them and they there are no barriers except right towards the end. I Mean he even even said that in there I saw stories he was spat upon by people yell that scream that and he somehow can put all of that off to the side and Still put out this massive incredible physical effort.

And so I'm sort of like if he can do that then why can't you putt through a cell phone ring? You know why can't you serve through you know somebody yelling something? You know this I don't know it just seems really odd to me, but the whole reason I mentioned Lance Armstrong is I mean I mean talk about the most incredible display of Simply being on another plane.

You know it's sort of it's it's very much like Michael Jordan When Michael was sick that one time when they were playing Utah jazz. And he just he went out there, and how many points his were 42 or some outrageous thing like that even with a fever and the flu and the whole nine yards and That's what he is he's just He's just on another level there.

You know there's all the really great cyclists and then there's Lance. And he's just so far beyond them and for those of you don't know he's won the first his first tour in 99 like 18 months after completing Cancer Therapy he had cancer in in his lungs and his brain and all over his body was given a very small chance of survival and not only to survive, but he recovered and Boom he's won five Tour de France's and is going for number six, and why do I mention all this?

Well I mentioned all this because he's not a believer and It would you know I don't like when people say oh, just be wonderful of such and such person well be wonderful anyone becomes a believer, but here's someone who's just been given such massive gifts and And such clear gifts, and it would be so wonderful if someone Could come into his life in such a way as to share with him.

It would just share with him proclaim to him the gospel that God would be merciful to him. Really really would be because you know here's someone you'll look at you look at this guy and Man what what in a what an incredible capacity just just absolutely positively unbelievable well anyway 877 -753 -3341 our Roman Catholic Participant in channel Who was talking about?

The perpetual virginity of Mary and early church fathers is called in so we're going to take time to Revisit that subject and we come back from our break and take your phone calls as well at 877 -753 -3341.

877 -753 -3341.

A Call from Steve on Early Church Fathers and Marian Dogma

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The Meaning of Sola Scriptura and the Limits of Church Tradition

And welcome back to the dividing line, my name is James White we started off program didn't really have a Specific direction we were going to be going today and So right as the program began. I saw a citation regards to perpetual virginity of Mary some of you will recall our discussions on this subject last year when we had a debate in Salt Lake City and with Jerry matics on the subject of perpetual virginity of Mary and beforehand or was it Afterwards it was afterwards.

We then had a dividing line broadcast where Eric Svensson joined me and we Talked with Jerry matics for quite some time it was a very very interesting encounter and that is still available to listen to in real audio or to download the mp3 mp3s, however, you want to do that and So I guess this is in reference to the concept of solo scriptura something along those lines I'm not a hundred percent certain But I responded to what was being said in channel at the beginning of the broadcast and we moved on from there but the But Steve who had posted those comments has called in as everyone was in seemingly encouraging him to do so and So we'll start taking our phone calls with Steve and yours at eight seven seven seven five three three Three three four one.

Hi Steve. What are you doing doing?

All right. Okay, that message really was was just for you. And and then when you read it, I just felt, you know compelled to call in.

What message was that. The one I read? Yeah, the one you read. Okay, but that's fine. It makes for a lively show that way. I guess I don't recall that it was a private message.

Well, it was on the I put it on the board. I didn't private to you. It was a pre-show question, right, okay, but either way it makes no difference. Here's my question if you remember I called in two weeks ago along these lines and I read you that long list of early fathers that Affirmed strongly the perpetual the perpetual virginity of Mary.

As a dogma as. Well as a as a concept but not as a dogma right as a concept as a reality.

But not as a dogma, right? I mean, for example, you mentioned basil that basil specifically says it's not a dogma, right? Well, that was yeah, but that was that was one line from basil. Okay, so but basil but basil was.

See the problem is Roman Catholic apologists have gotten away with a long long time with Absolutely destroying history and making broad statements that just simply aren't true. So I'm just trying to make sure everyone understands did was Tertullian on that list.

I.

Think Tertullian was the only one that I found in that period that said that she had other children.

Okay, did he just miss the apostolic tradition memo or or or why would why would Tertullian not be aware of that?

Well, you know as you brought up all the way through acts and Into the period where I was referring to there were heretics.

Okay.

So and I even asked you about these early fathers. Did they have the scriptures. And then you then you start saying well Steve don't didn't the Judaizers have the scriptures. And then you started? Listing off the Aryans and everyone else that were gross heretics who had the scriptures.

Yes, who had the scriptures. The list that I gave you were supposed great church fathers in your opinion possibly.

Tertullian wouldn't actually even be considered by Rome at least in his later writings as Orthodox because he became a montanist. But going back to this this list was was Ignatius on it.

Let me see here. I've got now and this is a partial list that I did two weeks ago. I had Clement origin which Clement Clement of Rome.

Where did he saying about?

Well in I didn't bring the book this week.

But I have I can guarantee you I can guarantee you Clement of Rome never never said a word about it. Okay. Well Clement origin.

Athanasius Ephraim.

Epiphanes Basil, okay. Wait a minute that now I'm assuming that you're probably wrong about Clement of Rome. You're probably thinking Clement of Alexandria. So you're starting. You've you've pretty much skipped the first numbers of generations.

So I guess that's a a recognition on your part that nobody in the most primitive writings We have the Apostolic Fathers made any reference to this whatsoever. Even though they did talk to Mary is that does that talk about Mary not to Mary?

Duh, they talked about Mary, but they never say anything about this. Is that true?

Your only it's one that I pulled out I think was Clement.

And if that's Rome, then I would say you're completely wrong. And if you mean Alexandria both Alexandria both Clement and origin if you want to start there that says a whole lot if you know anything about the fact that as I said those two concepts are directly related to a very unbiblical and perverse view of sexuality which was very common in Alexandria and in their writings if you've ever looked at the stromata and tried to figure out any of the stromata You would really not want to base your argument there.

But let's let's be that as it may so you're you're starting Century century half two centuries down the road. You've got Ignatius and others. You've got these writings nothing there and then in areas where monasticism begins to Really blossom now you start having this belief, but it's not viewed as a dogma.

It becomes a dogma. When did this become a dogma again even in your own communion?

I live that I really don't know. Okay, really? I think that that's a separate issue.

Why is that it? Why is why wait a minute? Why is that a separate issue if for example Jerome asking me when it when it became dogma? Well, because if this is an alleged apostolic doctrine Then what you have to do is to do a gerrymatitis does and every time gerrymatitis makes these broad Brush comments about church history and then you try to pin him down and you say well, what about this particular person?

What about this particular person? Well, hey, there's always heretics. And so if in other words if an early church father disagrees with me He's a heretic and if he doesn't disagree with me Then he obviously was holding to this apostolic tradition that I claim comes from the Apostles and what I'm pointing out to you.

Is that? Jerome for example Recognizes that there were people who didn't believe what he believed on that subject and those people were actually in positions of authority and leadership at that point in time and I think that you know, it's rather odd that in this situation.

We look at Jerome and go Oh Jerome said this give much give much weight here. But then when Jerome tells us that the Apocrypha isn't scripture, then we just dismiss him Because he's contradicted by later councils.

It's this Completely inconsistent use of sources and giving of weight to sources that just drives me nuts.

Okay, well Maddox may do that. I'm not doing that. What I'm doing is in your debates you've cited these film. Sure. I have as church fathers. I.

As early church writers, yes. What you and I mean by that are different things.

I'm sorry.

What you and I believe about what an early church father is are different things. An early church writer is not infallible.