Imam Shamsi Ali Debate in Queens: Q&A and Closing Statements

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Following the same pattern, I would like to start with a question for Dr.

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White. If God is divine, if God is eternal, how would you justify

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God defining for the sins of these creations?

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If everyone is responsible for their own sins, then what is the original sin?

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I'm going to assume that it wasn't defining, it was dying. So, I see two questions here, in essence.

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If God is eternal, how would you justify God dying for the sins of the creation? Remember, Jesus is the

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God -man. He voluntarily gave his life. Remember, all the Old Testament sacrifices were pointing forward to Jesus Christ's fulfillment of them.

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And Jesus said, no one takes my life from me, I give it of my own accord. He said it was necessary that I go to Jerusalem to give my life.

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And so he does so from the very past of eternity. The Father, Son, and Spirit together chose the roles that they would take in the eternal covenant of redemption.

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It was not the Father who became flesh. It was not the Spirit who became flesh. It was the Son who became flesh. And he gave his life as a sacrifice for sins.

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A perfect substitutionary atonement. Those whom God chooses unto himself, he unites to his

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Son so that his death becomes my death. The Apostle Paul said, I have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless

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I live. Yet not I, but Christ lives in me. And the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the

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Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. The Bible teaches the original sin of Adam.

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The Bible teaches that we were in Adam, so that his sin becomes that which has caused our fall.

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That's why, my friends, you never have to teach your children to lie. You never have to teach them to say no to you and rebel against you.

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You have to teach them to be good. You don't have to teach them how to do wrong. That's original sin.

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Here's the fact tonight. Dr. James White has said that God has never been mentioned as...

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Jesus has never been mentioned as begotten Son. But you read that in John 3, 16.

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That for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believe in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

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He is mentioned. And that, of course, was taken out in the Revised Standard Rationalism. And this is another fact.

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The Bible changes from time to time based on the interest, based on circumstances.

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And how are you going to preserve the Word of God if from time to time you change it? One, you say you need the

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Son of God. One, you say begotten Son of God. Now you say he gave his only Son.

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This question is for Imam. David has dropped one of them.

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Interesting. Actually, the question that I was referring to has already been answered by Shamsi Ali, which is, to be fair to the question here, as a

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Christian, I believe that Jesus Christ is God. And, quote, I and the

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Father are one. You see me, you see the Father. The Muslims do not believe this, do they?

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This is for Imam Ali. You will never see

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God unless you see me. That's basically the meaning of what the Bible says. It does mean, my friends, that Jesus Christ was sent by God to teach the people about God.

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And to teach the people about how to worship God. Muhammad, in the Holy Quran, is mentioned in this way.

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مَنْ أَطَاعَنِي فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهِ If you don't want to obey God, then obey me.

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Because you will never obey God unless you follow the way Prophet Muhammad showed you, how you should obey

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Prophet Muhammad. All Prophets of God, Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, have come to show us the way to God.

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And that's why if you have seen him, you will see the way. If you follow the way Prophet Muhammad teaches you about Islam, you will see the way to God.

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And this is similar to Jesus Christ. So we don't believe that if we know Jesus Christ as Jesus Christ, as the

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Prophet of God, that is the way to God. And that's why Muslims believe in Jesus Christ. We don't deny Him as the way, as the path.

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But He is not the divine, He is not the Son of God, He is not the incarnated God, He has never been God and will never be

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God. He is a servant of God, given the revelation to teach us how to go to God. So He is the way.

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I invite you to consider the actual context of the text that is just cited, which is John chapter 10 verse 30.

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Jesus is talking about the fact that He and the Father are one in providing salvation for God's people.

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So when Jesus says the Father and I are one, notice what happens in the very next verse. The Jewish leaders picked up rocks again to stone

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Him to death. Why do Jews stone people? For saying that they are just a prophet and if you follow me, then you will get to heaven?

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No, they stone people for blasphemy. And if they just read on, it says, they themselves said that we are not going to stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy because you as a man are claiming to be

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God. The Jews fully understood what Jesus was saying in John chapter 10 verse 30. Amen. Before Dr.

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White relates to the deity of Christ, I'm going to ask maybe one more and then try to sit through to find questions of a different topic.

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But the one I have here, Dr. James White, If Jesus is God, how come

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He can eat, drink, and sleep? If Jesus is God, how come He can die?

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Because the question only assumes half of what Christians believe. Yes, Jesus is truly God. But the

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Bible says, The law of us who created all things, sarx agenitop, became flesh.

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He entered into His own creation. Is it beyond Allah's power to enter into that which

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He created? If He created it, can He not, if He chooses to do so, enter into it? That's what the incarnation is.

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So why can He eat and drink and give His life? Because He is truly man. God did not cease to exist because remember, we believe in one being of God shared by not three personalities, but three persons.

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The Father, the Son, and the Spirit. It was the Son who gave His life upon Calvary's crops. He didn't cease to exist.

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We don't believe that men cease to exist when they die. His spirit continues to exist, but He gave

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His life as a sacrifice for sins. And may I clarify something? I did not say that some

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Bible translations do not use the term begotten of Jesus. What I'm saying is it's a misunderstanding. You see,

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I can look at my translations of the Quran in English and his translations of the Quran in English, and they will translate

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Arabic words with different English words. That's the process of translation. The Greek term used in John 3 .16,

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the Greek term used in John 1 .18, is monogamous. Monogamous does not come from genao, which means to beget.

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It comes from genes, which means kind or tight. That's why monogamous means unique.

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That's the same term used in John 3 .16 as well. Thank you. Dr. James White mentioned a very interesting point.

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If a God does want to do something, He can do it, including enter into the flesh body, into His servant.

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There are two things here. Number one, possibility and impossibility, of course, is in the hands of God.

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But let me just tell you that it is impossible for God to do something that contradicts

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Himself. God is so unique. God is so powerful. God is not limited.

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Now enter into human flesh that He's not unique anymore. Jesus eating, He was circumcised, He was in the wombs of the mother,

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He was running away from His enemies. He's not unique anymore. Do you think God the unique becomes not unique anymore?

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So the impossibility is clearly that God is impossible to enter into human flesh because that is contradicting to God Himself.

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This question is for Imam Shamsi Ali. He'll have 90 seconds to respond. Please explain the scheme of the corruption of every copy of the

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Bible without the knowledge of all who owned a copy of the texts in the original languages.

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So, please explain how all copies of the Bible were corrupted without someone knowing who had all the various copies.

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Is it clear? Do you want me to clarify? They're asking how all the

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Bibles could be corrupted when there are many copies of the Bible. Yes, there are copies of the Bible all over the place. How are all of them corrupted?

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I don't have to take 90 seconds to answer this one. The existence of different Bibles itself is a very direct indication or sign or fact that the

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Bibles are corrupted because you have different versions. Okay? From time to time, I have,

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I think, six Bibles now. I can open it to you and I can show you differences inside of those

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Bibles. New international versions, new King James versions,

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King James versions, revised standard versions. And on those versions, basically, some verses are taken out and the latter are inserted again.

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Now, what do you do with the books of God? Do you have that right to insert and take out, insert and take out?

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This itself, the different versions itself, basically, is the representation that Bibles have been corrupted throughout the history.

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It's very clear. Thank you. I have in front of me the current edition of the

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Quran in Arabic. Many of you have seen this edition. You will notice there are no notes at the bottom of the page giving you the various readings, the

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Fawz, Palimpsest, Manuscript 328, any of those other places that I showed you on the screen where they have varied readings from what you have here.

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However, if you look at my Greek New Testament, you will find all sorts of notes giving you all the readings of all the manuscripts so you can examine them yourself.

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If you want to talk about corruption, the point of fact is that we as Christians put forward all the information and we are confident that in that manuscript tradition the original readings have been preserved for us to this day.

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That's why I brought up the Uthmanic revision. That's where we really have to be discussing this subject this evening. Thank you.

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Reversing the normal, this question is for Imam Shamshi Ali. If Mary was a virgin, where did the baby come from?

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If Jesus is not the son of God, then how are our sins atoned for?

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Jesus clearly stated that He is the son of man, the son of God, John 8 .58.

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He says He was, He has before Abraham, John 5 .18

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and Luke 2 .49. We confirm that Jesus was without a father.

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He was born to a virgin Mary, a virgin woman, Mary. And Mary is so respectful.

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She is the master of women in paradise, in our belief. But there is a beautiful verse in the

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Holy Quran that says, إِنَّ مَثَىٰ لَعِيسَىٰ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ كَمَثَىٰ لِآدَمٍ That the examples of Jesus in the sight of God is like Adam.

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He created him from clay and He said, Be, and He is. So my question to you, my

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Christian friends, if it is easy for God to create someone from nothing, from clay, and suddenly into an existence,

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Adam, is it more difficult for God? Of course the concept of difficult and easy in our minds.

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Nothing is difficult in God. Is it more difficult for God to create someone through a mother without a father?

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So do you want to say that this is the reason why Jesus Christ is God? Because He doesn't have a father?

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How about Adam? How about Eve? No father, no mother. Eve, no mother, from a father.

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So I think let's use our rationality. Let's think. The Holy Quran challenged the

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Muslims. Don't you think? Don't you reflect? Don't just follow blindly. I think the Bible also teaches us that use your rationality.

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Don't follow the Bible just blindly. Learn it. Study it. Question your priests and your pastors and your judges. We most certainly do question everyone who teaches.

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I do it all the time and all Christians do. The question asked, Is Jesus truly the Son of God or not?

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Now, the birth of birth is not the evidence of the deity of Christ. But when Jesus identifies himself as the

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Son of God, it has been said that lots of people identify as the Son of God. Not as Jesus did. In John chapter 5, which was cited,

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Jesus says, My father is working until now and I am working. He was referring to working on the Sabbath. The Jews understood what he was saying.

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And John 5 .18 specifically tells us, For this reason the Jewish leaders were trying even harder to kill him because not only was he breaking the

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Sabbath, but he was also calling God his own father. Peculiar formation there in the Greek.

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Thus making himself equal with God. Jesus is unique as the Son of God.

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Now the question is a little bit getting better. It's more about scientific.

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This is for Dr. White. How do you explain all the scientific miracles in the Quran? i .e.

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the sun and the moon's orbit, how the mountains go down the ground, how there is a barrier between sweet and salt water.

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The list goes on. There are similar books that are written by Christians that sometimes are embarrassing to me because they do not interpret an ancient text in the context of the ancient text.

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I think one of the clearest examples of this is the allegation that the Quran somehow contains miracles of embryology.

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To say that this is stretching things far beyond the original language of the Law is really to understate the issue.

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I think we need to be very careful that we do not insert our modern understandings into an ancient text and make those ancient texts say things that the ancient authors never intended them to say.

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There are all sorts of things. We can point to the hydrological cycle in the Bible and all the rest of these things, and I could say, well, how do you explain that?

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It's all been corrupted. I don't think that that is a meaningful direction to go. I think the fact of the matter is we have two texts here that we call

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Scripture. One makes reference to the other. One comes after the other. Which one is consistent in teaching what the other has said?

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And if we're going to allege corruption and things like that, have we really had proof of that offer?

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Looking at various versions of the Bible is not, from a scholarly perspective, evidence of the corruption of the text of Scripture any more than different versions and translations of the

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Quran are. And I have given evidence that there was the Ibn Masud reading. It wasn't just his notes.

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We've clearly seen evidence of the continuation of his readings. That's the scholarly level that we need to be focusing on this evening,

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I believe. If the

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Bible doesn't move into the modern time, there is an indication that the Bible is the pastor. The Holy Quran is talking about modern scientific -proof doctrine.

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And I can give you a lot in the Holy Quran. Dr. James talked about genealogy. One of Canadian genealogists, his name is

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Professor Keith Moore, became Muslim because of what he found in the Holy Quran. He's one of the best genealogists in the modern time.

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He became Muslim because of the fact that he found in the Holy Quran. He did say, if this is produced by Muhammad, it is impossible.

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It's 14 centuries ago in the desert. Now I have done my research more than 20 years,

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I can't go confusing just parts of what the Quran talks about genealogy. The Bible says, I want

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Dr. James to respond to this basically, that the mother's birth to female is unclean twice than to a male child.

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They say Leviticus 12, 15. This one is especially for Dr.

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White. If I believe in Jesus now, and I kill somebody, should

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I go to heaven now just because of my belief in Jesus? Scriptures teach us that when

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God saves a person, He causes that person to be regenerated, to be raised out of spiritual death, spiritual life.

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And that is the entire purpose of the tri -human God, that those who are born again are to be conformed to the image of Christ and made to be like Him.

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That means we are given a new nature and a new set of desires. Now, Christians still sin, they have abiding sin within them, but it is something that they should hate, it is something that they should be warring against, out of love for God, and because their new nature makes them to desire to be like Jesus Christ.

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And so, I will admit that there are some who call themselves Christians who go around and who teach that all you have to do is tip your hat toward Jesus and you will go to heaven no matter what you do.

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You can become an atheist, you can become an axe murderer, it doesn't make any difference. And that is a perspective that I call absolute heresy.

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It is wrong, it is not what the Bible teaches in any way, shape or form. God is glorifying

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Himself in conforming a people to the image of Jesus Christ. And so, He changes their hearts and He changes their desires.

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And so, the idea that a person can become a Christian and then just live as they will is not what the biblical teaching is.

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Instead, the Bible teaches that when God saves a man or a woman, He saves them from the inside out by changing their heart and making them a new creature in Jesus Christ.

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Two billion

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Christians, including Catholics today, are all wonderful people because of that faith. Because you say that the moment you say you believe in Jesus Christ, He changed you from your inside to become better persons.

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So, no more killings, no more discriminations, no more spitting, no more corruptions.

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But my friends, when God created us, He gave us freedom. And then He helped us to follow that freedom by sending prophets and sent down guidance.

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So, our salvation is in God through our efforts. Even Prophet Muhammad, let me end with this.

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Prophet Muhammad said to his daughter, My daughter, do something to save yourself because I cannot save you in the

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Day of Judgment. I can only show you the way. Thank you. There are a lot of questions addressing the issue of, well, pointing out

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Imam Shamsi Ali attacked the morality of prophets in the Bible and then giving long lists of things

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Muhammad did. Many of these are very mean -spirited. So, I'm going to try to bring up one of the nicer ones.

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Why did Muhammad have more than four wives?

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And did he trade mankind and captive women? Did he fall in love with his adopted son's wife?

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Thank you. My friend, we are talking about an issue in the 7th century.

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And I hope when you talk about an issue in the 7th century, you use the mind of the 7th century.

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You cannot use your mind in the 21st century to talk about an issue that takes place in the 7th century.

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Prophet Muhammad married more than one wife. You are talking about David. What did the holy book talk about David?

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Solomon. So, please be fair when you judge about the practices of the past. Because this is the reality in the holy books.

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Secondly, about treatments of the wives. About treatments of... I think they are talking specifically about his adopted son's wife.

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My friend, there is an issue mentioned in the Quran to show basically to the people, because Islam has come as a law, to tell the people that it is not wrong for the father, the so -called adopted father, to marry the former wife of his adopted son.

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This is a law that basically God wanted to deliver. And many of those wives of Prophet Muhammad basically were married for many, many other reasons.

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If Prophet Muhammad wanted to marry many wives just simply because of his human desires, his sexual desires, then he could have married her before he moved to Medina.

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He was young at the time. You know what? He married the first wife when he was only 25 and his wife was 40 years.

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She married 3 times before, had 6 kids. Do you think Muhammad is so sexually inclined to marry more than one wife?

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So, my friends, please do use the 7th century mind in talking about this. Well, I'm not sure how we can use the 7th century mind to talk about that and use the 21st century mind to find genetics and embryology in the

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Quran. Amen! Amen! I would like to suggest something to you.

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And to suggest this to the Muslims who have access to this, this information is available online. Take the time to read

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Ibn Kathir and Al -Khutabi on the subject of Zaynab and the relationship that developed there.

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I think it is, I mentioned in my presentation, it's very troubling to me. From the

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Tafsir sources and Hadees sources themselves, it strikes me that there is a problem there. But I do not believe, in the

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Islamic perspective, in saying that prophets somehow have to be sinless because clearly, I've already addressed that in the previous question.

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Again, following the pattern to Imam Shamsi Ali, why should I accept the claim of...

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As long as we get both of them. As long as we get both of them, I guess it doesn't matter. All right. Did I...

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Did I... It doesn't matter, right? Yeah, go ahead. Okay. All right then.

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To... This is a question to the priest, as the note says. Who do you think wrote

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Al -Quran? I would like to correct the address.

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Christians believe that all of us are believer priests, but we do not use the term priest in that sense.

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At least, I do not. We believe that Jesus Christ is one high priest, so I would like to correct that. I do not...

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No problem. There are all sorts of theories amongst orientalists about compilations of the

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Quran over time. There are some very interesting questions, especially about the change in regards to the direction between Mecca and Jerusalem, and the

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Qibla angle, and there's a number of things like that. But I don't have any problem debating the subject on the assumption that there was a man in 7th century

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Arabia named Muhammad who wrote this book. Now, the question then becomes, why do

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I believe, why must I believe this man was a prophet? Especially when he says things, like Surah 4, verse 157, that go against every bit of factual history concerning the crucifixion of Jesus Christ from the 1st century, 700 miles away, in a different language, when he never read my book in its original tongue.

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I don't understand why I should accept that. Would you accept someone who came along 7th centuries after Muhammad, never read the

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Quran, but then just says, I'm a prophet and the Hijra never took place, don't face Mecca, just because he claims to be a prophet?

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No, you would test him. And that's what I think we need to do in regards to Muhammad as well. Dr. James White, basically your point, pointed out clearly that the

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Holy Quran is an inspiration from God. Muhammad never read the Bible, never read the

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Torah, but yet the Quran talked a lot about them. So who taught him? Muhammad never went out to see the sea, the

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Quran talked about sea. Muhammad never went up to the sky, talked about the skies. So who taught

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Muhammad? God Almighty. That's why the Quran is تَنْزِلُ الْعَزِزِ الْحَكِيمِ The Quran has been revealed from the

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God, the Noble One, because Muhammad never altered it. He's not the author of the Holy Quran. Back to the questions for Imam Shamsi Ali, why should

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I accept the claim of the Quran of Jesus not being crucified when the

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Bible predicted it in Messiah 53, 700 years before Jesus was born.

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The Bible has a proof and it seems like the Quran has none. Even the

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Jesus admitted in the Talmud he died on the eve of the Passover. Thank you so much.

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The issue, first of all, the issue of crucifixions goes back to the issue of original sin.

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Why the only, let's say, use the word unique. The unique Son of God has to be sent down, enter into the flesh of human body to be crucified because of the original sin.

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Now the Holy Quran refutes about the original sin. The original sin is non -existent. So if the

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Holy Quran affirms that he was crucified, then you will find the Holy Quran contradictive. So what the

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Holy Quran says, وَمَا قَتَلُهُ وَمَا صَلَهُ They didn't kill him, they didn't crucify him, but some was made similar to him.

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Similar to him. So who was the similar to him? We can discuss that in the lengthy, we can find that many verses in the

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Bible explaining who that person was, basically. But unfortunately, it's not the issue tonight, it's not the subject tonight.

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I can do some research if one day we didn't want to discuss about the issue. But my point is that since the

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Holy Quran doesn't believe in the original sin, then what is the necessity for, let's say the son of God to be crucified?

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Of course for Christian friends, to save us. But now if there is no original sin, in fact all people are born pure.

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Everybody is born pure. And then the circumstances surrounding you, my friend, who make you evil.

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They make you evil. So we see people from a positive perspective. Everyone, regardless of the mothers, that is for Christian mothers,

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Jewish mothers, Hindu mothers, Buddhist mothers, every single born child born pure.

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That is how we believe as Muslims. Here is the text of Isaiah chapter 53 written in the

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Hebrew language 700 years before Christ. And it prophesies one who gives his life so that many can be justified.

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He is poured out. Look at Psalm 22, look at Psalm 2, Isaiah 53. It is the prophecy of the

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Messiah who will suffer for the sins of God's people. This is what has been written 1300 years before Muhammad.

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And 40 Arabic words in Surah 4157 that many people disagree with.

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Look at Asad's translation of the Quran and his commentary. He disagrees with what Imam Shamsiali just said.

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He said there is no basis for every believing that someone was made to look like Jesus. In fact,

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Shubhi Halaikum does not mean he was made to look like him. It was made to look like him. So we need to be very careful how we take that verse.

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We need to give both our participants time to have a five minute conclusion.

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Of course, everyone is free to stay around afterwards. If we didn't get to your... and to ask more questions afterwards.

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If we didn't get to your questions, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry I didn't even finish looking through the pile of questions. I think we need to have both of these men in another exchange very soon so that we can get to more of these issues.

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For Dr. Dwight, you mentioned the Trinity. Is the Trinity original to Christianity?

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If so, then what about the trinities of the Sumerians, the Mesopotamians, the Babylonians, thousands of years before Christianity occurred?

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I love set up questions. There is absolutely positively no parallel whatsoever between the paganism and its triads of gods and the belief of Christians that there is one eternal

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God who created all things, who is manifested in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Anyone who studies any ancient triads and then looks at the basic affirmation of Christians that from the beginning there is one true and eternal

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God. We say the shema that goes back to Deuteronomy 6 .4. There is one God.

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There is no parallel in any monotheistic religion where you have God revealing himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

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All those religions were polytheistic religions that believed their gods came out of the creation itself.

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One God cut another God in half and now you've got two gods and all the rest of this kind of silliness that you have in the various Mesopotamian religions and things like that.

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Christianity comes from Judaism and its absolute affirmation in the shema, shema yisrael

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Yahweh Eloheinu, Yahweh our God. Here in Israel, Yahweh is one. Yahweh is our

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God. And we continue to believe that. We simply believe what the New Testament teaches when it tells us that the

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Father is identified as Yahweh, the Son is identified as Yahweh by quotations from Psalm 102,

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Psalm 110, Isaiah 6. The Spirit is the Spirit of Yahweh. One divine name, the being of God shared by three persons who are distinguished from one another.

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We believe in the doctrine of the Trinity and can define it because the Bible teaches it. Let me just take the last point that the being of God, being of God is shared by the three.

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And let me ask questions here. When he was in the stomach in the wombs of his mother, are these shared by the three?

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When he was born, was this shared by the three? When he was crucified, was this shared by the three?

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When he died, was this shared by the three? When God was crucified and is shared by the three, who was controlling the world at the time?

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Thank you. Imam Shamsi Ali, can you answer

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Dr. White's comparison of the differences in the texts of the Quran, not just that there are different translations of the

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Greek and Hebrew texts? Can you answer

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Dr. White's comparison of the differences in the texts of the Quran? I really wanted to see the different versions of the

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Quran that Dr. James White has to see that we have different versions because that's what he claimed.

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But show us, where are those different versions of the Holy Quran? And my response to you that many people claim around that there are versions of the

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Holy Quran but yet we never found that. We have some kids probably here memorize the Holy Quran from the beginning to the end.

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Millions of Muslim kids today memorize the Holy Quran. And everywhere you go, go to India, go to Pakistan, go to Bangladesh, anywhere, you will find when the kids memorize the

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Holy Quran, the same word, no different at all. When you open different printings, let's say printings in different countries, you'll find difference.

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We don't find versions of the Holy Quran. Yeah, Dr. James claimed that there are versions of the Holy Quran but if you ask me where are the versions of the

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Bible, I can give you. Different printings, different contents. Taken out, inserted in.

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So what kind of the Holy Books we are talking about? If you took out, inserted again, took out, inserted again, so what kind of Holy Books?

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The Holy Quran guaranteed the preservation of the Holy Quran. The Holy Quran says itself, إِنَّ نَحْنُ نَسْهَلَ الْقُرْآنَ وَإِنَّ لَهُ لَحَافِقُونَ

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Verily, we have indeed revealed the Holy Quran unto you, Muhammad. God said, unto you. We revealed it unto you,

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Muhammad. And certainly, we will take the guarantee. We will be responsible to protect it.

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So Quran is being protected by God Himself through the efforts of Muslims, of course. Thank you.

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I've always wondered why Muslims believe the Quran is protected when God failed to protect the books he sent down in the

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Torah and the Injil. The reality is I never said there are different versions. I gave you photographic evidence on the screen of variant readings and I demonstrated to you that the early

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Muslim writers themselves speak of the Ibn Masud readings. I gave you specific references to these.

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I gave you examples of these. I don't know how much more I can do than to document it for you.

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Maybe you've not seen those things before but this information is generally available within scholarly realms and is available, as I showed you, an entire page of variations published by Muslims from Turkey.

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So I would suggest to you that you do what I've done. That is, go buy the books. Unfortunately, they're very expensive but go buy them anyways and take a look at them.

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Alright, at this point we're going to have a five minute closing statement from each side beginning with Dr. White and again afterwards if you'd like to ask a question of either participant you're welcome to do that.

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So five minutes, Dr. White. I wish to thank all of you very much for being here this evening sticking around through the heat.

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Wasn't it great to have the first day of summer today? I want to especially thank my Muslim friends for being here and I hope that some of you have listened and heard.

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It has become a tradition of mine in my debates with Muslims to present gifts to my opponent.

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I gave Imam Shamsi Ali a copy of the scholarly work on the New Testament. I have over here a

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New American Standard Bible, two of my books, Scripture Alone, and my book on the Trinity where I do actually define the

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Trinity very clearly and I would like to give those to Imam Shamsi Ali. I wish to close by reading one text from the

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Quran and asking some simple questions based upon it. Sura 5, 46 says, and we sent

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Jesus, the son of Mary, after those prophets confirming the truth of whatever there still remained of the

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Torah. Now that's an interesting translation in this English version which is very different from other English versions I point out.

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And we gave him the Gospel wherein is guidance and light and which confirms the truth of whatever there still remained of the

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Torah and a guidance and admonition for the God -fearing. Listen to verse 47. Let the followers of the

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Gospel, the Allah Al -Injil, the people of the Gospel, judge by what Allah has revealed therein.

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May I ask you a question? In fact, it goes on to say, and those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are the transgressors.

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How could anyone in the days of Muhammad have judged by what was in the

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Injil if the Injil did not exist? I need an answer to that.

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I've asked many Muslims and I've gotten some amazing answers. But I need to know, how could the people of the

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Gospel in the days of Muhammad judge, how could Allah hold them accountable to what was in the

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Injil if the Injil did not exist? I submit to you that your own revelation puts you in a quandary.

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I was trying to explain this in my rebuttal but most of you left. So let me just very briefly summarize it.

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If you look at the preceding ayahs, the Qur 'an actually, in one of only two places, actually quotes from the

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Torah. And it's the exact citation we have today. He is the one who put it on a pillow and said,

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I believe everything in this book. We know what that Torah was. We have versions of that earlier than that.

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So the question is, if you're going to believe the Qur 'an, then how can you believe this allegation of wholesale corruption that stands against the greatest manuscript tradition of any ancient work of antiquity?

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I debated Bart Ehrman, one of the most famous agnostics and opponents of the Christian faith just a few months ago and he admitted in our debate that the

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New Testament is the most widely attested and earliest attested work of antiquity. So you have to stand against that united testimony.

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And I think we do need to continue these dialogues. I think tonight has been excellent and I would like to offer to Imam Shabsi Ali.

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I don't know about you, but it's hard to get to Queens for me. If I had to use a GPS to get here, I'd still be riding in circles.

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But I'll tell you what, I'll be happy to come to your mosque too. I'm happy to do so because we have demonstrated something this evening, folks.

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We have listened. Some of you have not heard a word I've said and some Christians have not heard a word that Imam Shabsi Ali has said.

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That's expected. But I think there's a bunch of you who have heard both sides. And you've tried to be fair and you've tried to open your minds and that's what this is all about.

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We are going against the flow of our culture today. Our culture says we should not be allowed to do this.

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And folks, I don't know how long we're going to have the freedom to do this. But while we have this freedom to do this,

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I want to continue. I want to thank you for being here this evening. I want to emphasize the fact that there are all sorts of things that both of us said the other did not have time to get to.

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But this dialogue needs to continue. And I would challenge you to keep your mind open and to examine the things that are said.

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Go back over the notes. We'll be putting these audios and videos available. Check out the facts for yourself.

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Don't just accept what either side says. Check us out. That is my challenge to you.

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Thank you for being here this evening. Thank you so much

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Dr. James White. Thank you so much for being here tonight. It really is an honor for me. As I mentioned, this is my first time.

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And it really encourages me to study more. Because I feel that I am not experienced in this.

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I am not as rich as Dr. James. They give me a lot. But I have only this one book.

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An old book. Because I didn't have the money to buy. So I want to present this to you. What did

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Jesus really say? Created by a student, basically a PhD student, seven years ago.

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And I wanted to present this to you. You have it. But this is just an honor to give it to you again. And I hope

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I can buy it again. Dr. James, thank you so much for quoting

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Al Maida 46. You know, the point is that the Holy Quran acknowledges the

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Torah and the angel, which were both given to Moses and Jesus. So, the

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Holy Quran basically commanded the Jews and the Christians to follow those books that have been revealed to their prophets.

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And to our prophets too. Because Moses and my prophets. But unfortunately, it didn't happen. And that's why the

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Quran later on criticized those who did not follow the commandments of God in the

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Torah and the angel. Those who did not follow the Torah and the angel, they are blasphemers.

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That's what the Quran says, basically. So we acknowledge the existence of that. And it doesn't mean that there is no angel, basically.

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Let me just mention this. Prophet Muhammad's wife, cousin, basically.

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He was a priest in Mecca. His name is Wara' bin Naufa. When Muhammad received the revelation for the first time, he experienced a new experience.

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So he was a kind of scarer, and he went to his wife, and his wife went to his cousin, because his cousin was very religious.

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So she asked him, who did come to Muhammad? Who is that person? And he said, The person that came to your husband is the one who came to Moses.

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If I were to be given a long life, I would follow him, because he would be expelled from the city.

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His people would hate him. And this is what happens, basically. So it is nothing new, basically. But as you mentioned, that Muhammad never studied the

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Bible. Now, let me mention this as a last point. People rejected the truth because of two reasons, at least.

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The first reason Number one is ignorance. And number two is arrogance. If the people are ignorant, we need to remind them.

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And the Holy Qur 'an is called dhikr. Inna nahnu nazzalna dhikra We have revealed unto you, Muhammad, a reminder to remind the ignorant people, to remind us that there is a truth.

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So the Qur 'an has come to remind us about the truth in the Bible, and about the truth in the Torah. So again, the

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Qur 'an has come as a reminder. Those who are ignorant, the Qur 'an has come to remind you. But be careful about arrogance.

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Let me just, before I come to my last point. Dr. James recited the last verses of chapter 5 of the

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Holy Qur 'an. And in the day of judgment, God, He knew everything, He knows everything.

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But just to uncover to everybody, He will ask Jesus, Jesus, did you and your mother say to the people who worship me beside God?

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And Jesus said, No, I never said that God, except what you had commanded me to say. So Jesus Himself will witness in the day of judgment, and that message is a good reminder for everybody to search for the truth.

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But this is the last point my friends tonight. Especially for me and Dr. James. We have mentioned many reasonings, many proofs tonight from the

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Bible, from the Holy Qur 'an. But I think we need to mention some spiritual basis also in our religiosity.

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God challenged us in the Holy Qur 'an that if you still insist in your faith, and I'm sure you believe 100 % in the

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Bible's truth. If you don't believe in that, the Qur 'an says, فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْي نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءَنَا وَأَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَأَزْوَاجَنَا وَأَزْوَاجَكُمْ وَأَنفُسَنَا وَأَنفُسَكُمْ فَنَبْتَحِلْ أَنَّ لَعْنَةَ اللَّهِ عَنِ الْكَافِرِينَ

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The Holy Qur 'an challenged us that if you insist on what you do believe as a truth, raise your

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Holy Qur 'an and raise your Bible and ask God the curse, the curse on those who lie.

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So I challenge everybody of my Christians and my Muslims here tonight. Do you believe 100 % in your

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Bible and your Qur 'an? Raise your Qur 'an and say, God, if I'm a liar, please do curse me.