September 2, 2016 Show with Tim Challies on “The Discipline of Spiritual Discernment”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron.

So one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

Now, here's our host.

Good.

Afternoon.

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Friday on

This first day of Labor Day weekend, and I am so delighted that on this

second day of September 2016 I've got two New guests who have never been

on the program before and I am eagerly looking forward to our interviews.

For the first hour We're gonna have Tim Challies on the program.

He is an author blogger book reviewer for world magazine Which is one of our sponsors of iron sharpens iron

and he's co -founder of cruciform press.

He's addressing the theme the discipline of spiritual discernment, which is also

a book by crossway Publishing and we always thank crossway for

producing some very solid literature.

And the second hour We have Isaac Evans who is pastor of Glastonbury

Baptist Church in Connecticut.

And he is one of the speakers at the conference coming up in Pittsburgh Indiana

on the centrality of Christ throughout redemptive history.

He's gonna be speaking along with Russell Fuller who is an Old Testament professor at the Southern

Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky and some other speakers and We will have him as

our guest for the second hour.

God willing but first let me let me welcome for the very first time to honors iron sharpens iron

Tim Challies.

Hey Tim, it's great to have you on the program and as I typically do especially with guests that

I'm Interviewing for the first time if you could let our listeners know something about

Your own upbringing in regard to religion when and how you came to faith

in Christ and Where you are at now in regard to your own

Theological positions of obviously in summary form if you could tell us about that.

Sure.

Yeah, I was raising a

Christian.

Oh, yeah.

Came

back

praise

God.

Well, I happen to be very pleased with the the shift in your view on baptism because I also happen

to be a Reformed Baptist and actually have been since shortly after

my conversion in the mid 1980s I was raised Roman Catholic and

The very first church.

Thanks be to God according to his providence.

The very first evangelical church that I began to Regularly attend and

which I eventually was baptized in and joined was a Reformed Baptist Church so very

soon after Going to that church.

I did come to embrace those distinctives and praise God for them.

Yeah, and.

You.

Also are a prolific writer and you've got this Book that

Crossway has published titled the discipline of spiritual discernment.

I have been in Christian radio For over 30 years and that seems to be

a very seriously lacking discipline in the lives

of many people in broadcasting and obviously in those who

run operate and work for and own Christian publishing houses, unfortunately

I remember Hank Hanegraaff of the Bible Answer Man once saying that most Christian bookstores should have

a sign over the door that says enter at your own risk and I know that those local Christian

bookstores are a dying breed because of the internet, but that certainly should be true with Internet

Christian bookstore or book warehouses and.

So tell us what was the motivation behind the discipline of spiritual discernment?

Yeah,

and.

Then let me give the email address if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

At CHRISARNZEN at gmail .com please give us your first name at least your city and state

and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA and Obviously you may

remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable.

Especially if we're discussing something like this on occasion we have listeners who

are members of churches that they are noticing something that is giving

them Hesitation to agree with the leadership there and obviously they may feel uncomfortable about

identifying that church.

We would actually prefer you do that.

Not identify this church or religion or what have you unless it's of course

a major False religion or cult or something like that, but if you

feel More comfortable remaining anonymous you may do so and by the way, I

also want to make sure I announce before I forget the upcoming G3

conference where our guest Tim Challies is one of many speakers.

This is going to be held January 19th through the 21st in 2017.

I am so delighted that I will be there.

God willing With an exhibitors booth.

Thanks to Josh Bice and the folks at Praise Meal Baptist Church and also

getting out there to Atlanta, Georgia, thanks to one of my sponsors Linbrook Baptist Church on

Long Island, New York and I just really want to thank everybody who converged together to make it

possible for Iron Trip and Zion to be there and This is one of the most phenomenal

lineups of Speakers I've ever seen at a conference and one of the

lengthiest if not the lengthiest Paul Washer, Stephen J. Lawson, DA Carson, Voti

Baucom, my dear friend of nearly 27 or 8 years Dr. James

R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries our guests today Tim Challies.

Conrad M. Bayway who's been a friend of mine since 1995 one of the most powerful preachers on the planet Earth if not

the most powerful preacher from a Kibwata Baptist Church of Lusaka, Zambia, Africa.

Phil Johnson who has been on Iron Sharpens Iron I think more than any other guest that we've ever interviewed.

Phil Johnson is the executive director of Grace to You the ministry of John MacArthur and We

have Rosaria Butterfield who we've had on this program twice.

Who is a former lesbian and leftist professor a tenured

professor at Syracuse University in New York and she by the grace of God was

rescued from that damning and deadly lifestyle and Transformed by the grace of God.

She is now married to a Presbyterian pastor and Has written a number of books.

I'm looking forward to meeting her in person after having interviewed her twice.

Todd Friel who's been on this program a number of times from wretched radio and wretched TV.

And that's just about half of the speakers.

So if you'd like to go to that conference go to g3 conference comm.

G3 conference comm that's G the number three conference Comm

and please if you register tell them that you heard about the conference from Chris Arnzen at Iron Sharpens Iron

radio.

Well, you know Tim I remember as I was just Recalling earlier of my my

all the years I've worked in Christian radio.

I Remember chuckling when the one of the stations I worked for for 15 years

Would have surveys for their listeners On who their favorite

program hosts were and sometimes you would have people picking things that had nothing to do with one of the

It was 180 degrees polar opposites.

You'd have people like saying something like my favorite programs are John MacArthur and Kenneth

Copeland or something like that.

You know people who are in direct opposition to each other.

This is obviously a reflection of poor discernment or not even really listening to what people are

Saying or seeing what they are writing.

If you could Tell us because this is obviously Cultivating

a discipline.

It's not just telling people they must have spiritual discernment and then leaving them On their own you

are actually giving a blueprint of some kind for Cultivating or

developing the discipline of spiritual discernment.

What would be some of the initial things that people should start doing?

When they are trying to achieve that goal of being.

Biblically

sound

in

their

spiritual

discernment.

Well,

you

know

in Acts

8 31 we have that.

Classic verse.

How could I?

Understand unless someone guides me.

Philip was being asked that question by the Ethiopian eunuch and

Obviously Reading the Bible and studying the Bible is vital and

perhaps the most important thing along with praying about what you're studying, but obviously

There is some kind of a need for a guide to those who are teaching us.

And unfortunately, we live in a fallen world.

We are surrounded by in the church by sinners and just other fallible men.

And we don't have a in the in the True genuine church

that Jesus Christ founded.

We don't have a Pope and even the Roman Catholic Pope Does not really settle

all issues because the Roman Catholic Church is splintered and probably in more

directions than Bible -believing evangelicals are which is why

it's somewhat comical when when the Roman Catholic apologists accuse us

of having a blueprint for anarchy in our understanding of sola scriptura when they are

Probably more divided than we are just under the same umbrella of Roman Catholicism.

But how do you answer to that question when?

We do need teachers and we need the right kind of teachers.

Well,

we all

need

teachers

and

and of

course

you

have

to be.

Berean you have to test everything that your

Teachers are saying to see if they are in accordance with the Word of God just as Paul

Commended the Bereans for doing he did not get insulted and say who are you questioning?

I'm an apostle.

You know, he actually applauded them.

He commended them for making sure everything he was saying was accurate.

We have to Cannot elevate our leaders and pastors to the point where they are

such.

Heroes, I mean, I'm not.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having heroes.

I think it's a very right thing to have yours, but when they be when we become blind to their

faults and inconsistency inconsistencies and their fallibility.

We can erect idols in our lives with these teachers.

Can't we?

Sure and

Right, we do have

a

listener

from

Lindenhurst,

Long Island, New

York CJ.

Who asks in your opinion?

What would be the three best books to give to a brand new convert in

Jesus Christ?

Yeah, well we got to have you back on the program to discuss that book and who publishes that.

That's from Zondervan.

Oh great.

Well, well, by the way CJ You're gonna get free of charge as our gift

to you the discipline of spiritual discernment thanks to our friends at crossway books

and That's going to be shipped to you by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service

CV BBS comm that's CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service

comm and we thank CV BBS comm for being a faithful sponsor of iron sharpens iron.

So keep your eye open for that in the mail CJ and we hope you enjoy that and feel free to pass it

on to a new convert if that's Why you're asking that question, perhaps, you know somebody who's just came

come to Christ and you want to give them some good books.

Well, Tim Chalies is a very faithful resource.

So We hope you enjoy that.

What do you think are the the most prevalent and.

Harmful.

Things being taught in the church today that seem to be even causing

those who were known for theological soundness to

Start to drift into aberrant thinking, you know some of the what are the areas that

are perhaps even shocking to you that coming out of even some of the

circles that you and I are in or theologically reformed or Calvinistic circles or having

influence over them.

Well, it's interesting that that young in fact all of

these encounters seem to be Getting a wide audience even in

Roman Catholic circles and that strikes me as being odd because you would think that these people would be in

purgatory Not in heaven or immediately.

So you and in

some

ways they sound

remarkably the

same

the other

funny.

Amen.

We have.

Yeah.

Inevitably every time.

Eventually removes the focus from the Word of God and you know through our sin We don't have the kind

of access to go

into sin now

God is

greatly going back to God's

word.

Think about we

have Tyler

in

Mastic Beach,

Long

Island,

New

York.

Who asks why is it that many professing modern?

Evangelicals say the doctrine does not matter when it divides correctly

between heresy and orthodoxy.

Well, I

think

that's

been

a

key.

Well.

Guess what.

Tyler you're getting a free copy of the book that we are discussing today the discipline of spiritual

discernment by Tim Challey's.

So keep an eye out for that and thanks again to crossway books for providing those

Copies of the discipline of spiritual discernment and also thanks to CVB BS comm

For shipping those out to our winners.

And in fact, we are going to our first break right now, and if you'd like to join us on the air as well.

Our email address again is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We're gonna be right back after these messages with Tim Challey's and more of our discussion on

the discipline of spiritual discernment, so don't go away.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnsin.

If you just tuned us in our guest for the first hour is Tim Challey's author blogger book reviewer

for world magazine Whose ad you just heard moments ago and co -founder of cruciform

press.

He's addressing the theme of his book the discipline of spiritual discernment.

And the second hour.

We're going to be joined by Isaac Evans of Glastonbury Baptist Church in Connecticut.

Who will address the centrality of Christ throughout redemptive history.

Our email address is Chris Arnsin at gmail .com.

Chris Arnsin at gmail .com.

And we have BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Who wants to know it seems that most of the ministries with enough financial

resources to be on?

Television are theologically bankrupt and dangerous.

Can you list at least a few that you would highly recommend

televangelists, yeah, yeah.

I'm assuming that.

Well, I definitely.

John MacArthur's program grace to you is on.

Television networks throughout perhaps.

I'm I'd be shocked if they weren't in Canada as well.

Run stations in Canada and also RC Sproul's program

Renewing your mind, which is an excellent program.

He is on radio stations and television networks all over the country and.

I.

Can't think of another one right off the top of my head but I'm sure that I will before the end of the program and I'll let you know.

And I apologize to those who have TV programs that I'm overlooking right now.

But there are a number of them but they are in the minority.

I would agree with our listener BB.

And by the way, BB you're also getting a free copy of the discipline of spiritual discernment by our

guest Tim Chalice.

One of the chapters in your book Discusses the

will and discernment if you could comment further on that.

The will and discernment.

Yeah, well,

obviously.

When I read that title, I'm thinking that That this is not something that

even though we're Calvinists both you and I it's not something that is going to zap us and we're automatically going to

be having a brain like a computer that can spit out anything that is

unbiblical and absorb everything that is we've got to be willingly involved with.

Disciplining ourselves.

I'm assuming that's what you may be talking about.

Yeah.

We

have

Jeff from

Clinton

Township,

Michigan.

Who says John Stott was an annihilationist.

Tim Keller is an evolutionist?

How does a Christian determine what teaching is acceptable and what isn't and what's allowed?

I guess he's speaking about What teaching from each of these individuals and others who may have

some things that are very solid that they teach and they have some things that

surprise us that they That we might consider to be aberrant the

the reformed faith.

There are many in the reformed faith that you and I embrace that would uphold

both of these men as as Trustworthy leaders and yet what

our listener is saying is true.

John Stott, although I don't know if he was a committed an annihilationist.

He certainly believed it was an acceptable understanding of

eternal eschatology and Tim Keller is on the record for being a believer in theistic

evolution and Both of these men also have been praised by

some of my heroes.

Like I know Sinclair Ferguson who's one of my modern -day heroes had Tim Keller write the forward for his latest

book.

So if you could comment on that

Yeah, and another Name like like John Stott

would be J. I Packer who has written things that have been such an Enormous blessing to the

body of Christ and yet many have their eyebrows raised over the extreme ecumenism

embraced by him and even Dr. Martin Lloyd -Jones had problems with his ecumenism.

So I just like what you said earlier the best of men are men at best

and although we are to glean all we can

from Men who have a reputation for biblical soundness.

We cannot be blind to their their failings and faults and Errors

and look upon them as infallible in any way.

Right

and just

have to.

In fact, I've had a

couple of

guests

on.

Recently who are very strong Calvinists the theologically reformed brethren

and yet they Were on my show talking about the great need for especially

seasoned Christians to be willing to Learn from and

read the writings of some great men of God who are not Calvinists.

Would you agree with that?

Well, Jeff You are also getting a free copy of the discipline of spiritual discernment by our guest

in Charlie's so thank you very much for the question and One of the chapters in

your book, I hope that you remember something about this chapter, but it has

such a Striking title.

I'm thinking it may jog your memory the dangers of discernment that almost seems oxymoronic.

I.

Couldn't help but immediately think when you were starting to describe that chapter.

I couldn't help but think of AW pink who has been such a tremendous

blessing to the body of Christ and so theologically sound So right on the money.

I even know Anti -calvinists who love a lot of what a W pink wrote.

And yet he wound up didn't he become somewhat like a hermit?

He just kind of withdrew himself From the church.

He just thought everybody was going to hell in a handbasket and it was Hardly a remnant to be found

anywhere.

Yeah,

that's my

understanding

anyway, right.

And

by the

way, I do not

want anybody to

hesitate.

Buying and reading books by a W pink because he certainly was a phenomenally

gifted brother in Christ prolific writer and He

is definitely somebody that every one should include in their library shelves.

Because he Just he has he has been used of God to open up the eyes of

Countless individuals to not only the gospel, but even some of the finer points of theology like

the doctrines of grace.

So.

But

and what specifically are you going to be addressing?

I don't even know if you are fully.

Have it nailed down yet, but do you know what you're specifically speaking on at the g3 conference?

Then just to

remind

our

listeners again.

That website for more details on the g3 conference is.

G the number three conference comm.

G the number three conference comm and I really hope to

see as many of you as possible at that conference.

Put a little

pitch out.

Put a

little pitch

out

for

it.

Amen, and I have had.

Most of the speakers there on this program and I am eagerly and

Enthusiastically trying to get all of the speakers.

I possibly can to be interviewed before The conference itself and I can tell you that

Josh Bice the organizer Of the event is returning.

God willing to iron sharpens iron once again on Monday September 26th 4 to

6 p .m. Eastern Time and he did a wonderful job the last time he was with us and

I'm hoping to as I said get all of these speakers on the program and

I just Thoroughly excited about this.

Now going back to the the discipline of discernment

Can You Basically give some more as we conclude

the program some practical advice regarding Prayer

and and reading and not only scripture reading but any other kind of study that you would

Recommend to help cultivate this kind of discernment in the life of a Christian.

Yeah,

I think we

see

the value that's

considered.

His is

probably his

magnum opus

isn't it.

Or his

at least

is one

of

his

Greatest and highly recommend works.

Yeah, the cross of

Christ.

I think.

And why not plug.

Cruciform press since it's something that you helped found.

The website is cruciform press.

Comment that actually that the title has Something near and dear to my heart because I have

an ad agency that I operate.

That is cruciform media.

So, I love that term cross -shaped cruciform, yeah.

Yeah, in fact, I

don't

even

know if you're

aware of

this but

someone over at

crucifix.

Someone over at cruciform press was kind enough to ship us Books

for all of the pastors that attended my last iron sharpens iron

Pastors luncheon.

In fact, I believe it was do more better now that I think about it.

Yellow cover.

Yeah, we had nearly a hundred men there at the iron sharpens iron pastors luncheon

recently a few months ago and We were very happy to give those out to

each and every pastor that attended the event.

So we think we thank cruciform precedent.

Of course, I can't forget solid ground Christian books who sponsors this program.

Solid -ground -books .com.

Solid -ground -books .com if you have a book that you want to buy it for a loved one

or yourself.

It's a very faithful and trustworthy resource as well.

From with the authors from the past and the present.

The best of the authors from the past and the present.

We.

Have a listener who wants to know in this day and age

of rampant homosexuality There seems to be two extremes in the

Christian Church.

On one polar opposite end you have those who demonstrate hate and

or even unconcerned towards those Involved in that activity and then you

have on the other extreme even evangelicals who seem to have become very soft on that

sin and View it as being no more serious than an

occasional losing of the temper or something.

What is your guests advice for having biblical discernment on how to

address this issue?

Well,

I

would

like

you

to.

Basically summarize in the next three minutes of what You would most want

etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before they leave the program today.

Amen.

Anything other than what you've mentioned on the the drawing board

for.

Upcoming books that you

plan on on

writing and

publishing.

Yeah,

we're

talking about.

Wow.

Well.

Definitely I know that your website is chalice .com Ch a LL is calm

and people can go to that for more details and please if you could tell dr Sproul, we would love to

have him back on Iron sharpens iron.

He was a guest once on the program and I know it's harder and harder to get him interviewed But I would love to get him

back on this program again.

Well, you know, it's been an honor privilege to have you on Tim and I really look forward to

God -willing having you return as a guest on a number of occasions in the future if you are willing

and if God opens the door For that, that would be great.

Thanks for having me.

Hey my pleasure.

And once again, Tim Chalice website is chalice .com ch a

LL is calm and His website for his publishing ministry that he co -founded is

cruciform press calm Cruc if as in Frank or

M as in Mary press calm god bless you Tim thank you and

Coming up in our second hour of the program.

We have a pastor Isaac Evans joining us he is the pastor

of Glastonbury Baptist Church in Glastonbury, Connecticut and He is going

to be talking about a conference That he is going to be speaking at along with

Russell Fuller of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and a number of other folks and if you

stay tuned, we're gonna be joined by Pastor Evans after this state.

Don't don't go away.

We're going to be right back after these messages.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said.

Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains.

Pruessley has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid ground Christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart.

The mission of solid ground Christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and

future and To publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish God -centered Christ exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com That's

solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or

present You can unearth from solid ground.

Solid ground Christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen and our second guest for this evening is Pastor Isaac

Evans.

He is pastor of Glastonbury Baptist Church in Glastonbury, Connecticut.

And he is one of the featured speakers at the Christ our Redeemer Conference to be

held next weekend Friday and Saturday of next week at the Pittsburgh Baptist Church in

Pittsburgh, Indiana.

That's Friday September 9th and Saturday September 10th.

Among the other speakers include my very dear friend pastor Josh Fryman of Community Baptist Church in

Riverhead, Long Island, New York Pastor John peoples of Grace Presbyterian Church in Indianapolis,

Indiana and dr Russell Fuller who is the plenary speaker?

He is a professor of Old Testament at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky and

We are honored and privileged to have for the very first time one of the other speakers Pastor Isaac

Evans.

Welcome to iron sharpens iron.

Hey.

Yeah, it's my pleasure brother.

And.

As I always do when I have a first -time guest if you could especially if they are a

pastor.

Let us know something about Glastonbury Baptist Church and and forgive me if I am mispronouncing that.

Oh.

Sure, it's a it's glass and berry.

But anyway, it was a church plant in 2008 and the pastor

left in May of 2015 and so on.

The second pastor, I guess we did have.

I've been there since November of 2015 and

Glastonbury

is small and growing we.

Great.

And as you know, I also happen to be a Baptist.

I am a member of Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, which is a reformed Baptist Church

Adhering to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, but as you know being a Baptist as well.

There are all kinds of Baptist.

Can you kind of summarize?

What kind of Baptist Church Glastonbury Baptist Church is the best

kind?

We work convention and.

I.

Kind of I can and just try to you know, teach what the

Bible says, which is what everybody says.

Well, even Charles said Well, you answered it as best as you wanted to and

Charles Haddon Spurgeon is In the same company of those who was called a hyper Calvinist on

one side and another Arminian on the other.

So sure, and now I typically ask especially with

first -time guests a summarized version of their testimony of

what kind of religious atmosphere you were raised in and How you came to know

the Jesus Christ of the Bible and trust in his gospel?

Well, I was elect before the foundation of the

Off and on the Baptist

Church off and on when I was nine, my dad took me to a real rural Baptist Church

in Indiana and Central, Indiana and I service

and got saved and then was baptized and I've always kind of felt like

I can be a thing.

In In.

Growing up until I was about 19.

I

That's kind of my testimony in a nutshell say

when

I was nine was

praying for me and I was Resisting and didn't want to go and

then now would that be?

Would that be pastor Brock Evans?

Yes, he

is my brother.

Pretty sure.

That's the only reason he's having me speak.

Ha.

Yeah, he is pastor of Pittsboro Baptist Church in Pittsboro, Indiana who is running this conference

the Christ our Redeemer conference and it's on the theme the centrality of Christ throughout redemptive

history.

And.

What specifically do they have you speaking on at this conference next weekend?

You know the idea is Testament a lot of times we

just Make the Old

Testament into more and as

you know.

But the name of God is sometimes people have a hard time finding God let alone.

It's

not it's very evident that the

main character for to that.

Well, if you

could.

I don't want to steal the thunder of your messages at the conference, but if you could summarize the most

profound Thing that you saw in Esther as a

As a picture of Christ being vividly present in those texts,

you know.

It's not necessarily in my opinion a matter of like types and figures and pictures as much

as It's it's a lot of it's just hermeneutics.

Look at the way people interpret Not just Esther but really

a lot of stories in the Old Testament, they'll look at Joseph or Moses or Jonah's and

They'll film and it's kind of just to

be honest.

It's kind of a formula that I've adapted From.

I don't know if you know who David Prince is.

He's a Southern Baptist and

it is a hermeneutics of

finding in.

The

bad guy is

but really While they

are the we are probably will

be like David or be like Esther and be like Mordecai.

So then you find

coming

from heaven to

earth, you

know,

he's born

as it were

Beyond enemy lines just like Esther was you know, she grew up in in the Persian Empire and and was

a person that was Persecuted and and really a stranger to the earth

and to her the Christ was those

similarities.

But she's not the ultimate hero of the grand story of redemption

that Christ

Little boat people

I'll preach that the same way a lot of people preach.

You don't even need the Bible where you have this problem in your life.

And we don't know what to do

and and make your life better.

But

Especially in this conference in the Old Testament.

Stories really helps us see the redemptive themes.

Not only in the New Testament which are pretty evident but also in the Old Testament that Christ is the ultimate

Redemptive hero that he comes the story of the text.

That he saved the Jews in a way that Esther Could not ultimately do and then

he'll return and eventually crush the serpent and so

You know, we have to the same way that Esther the same way that she responded

in faith is the same way that we face, you know, we

Esther but It's it's now, you know, God has a plan for us and it's not a matter of

fitting

and.

Yeah, we have been having a number of guests on lately Providentially who have been talking

about Christ in the Old Testament and Really to to not see

Christ in the Old Testament where he is intended to be seen.

You may really develop a very unbiblical concept of the Godhead because it's

it many Christians act as if Christ did not exist until his incarnation

Which which is obviously a heretical understanding of God and of Christ.

I've heard and get into

the the little

nuances of creation and

the the what and the strength theory and they're talking about

space time and And all this stuff and it's and they never mentioned Christ and the Bible says that you know He

spoke all things that are but the

word of his mouth.

You really caught up in

the what and

not what

it does.

Do

this

or do

that.

Schemes

and plan.

Jacob, but

and

we are too.

We

have a

listener

in

Augusta,

Maine.

John Who asks? Were the Old Testament saints

saved in the same exact way as the New Testament Saints and are the Old

Testament saints in glory with Christ right now.

By the way, how well do you know pastor Josh Fryman because your sense of humor is nearly identical to his so

far.

Yeah, we our wives tell us, you know, you don't always have to be funny.

We became friends about a year and a half ago.

We and he was kind of

relationships where you and social media and

then when I moved to Connecticut about a year ago.

We met and we went over to Long Island and he came over to New London and

even though we haven't Known each other really that long.

Yeah, he's a great brother and he almost Was going to be my pastor, but I Unexpectedly

moved to Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

So but I have nothing but the highest regard for for Josh from in and he's a really phenomenal preacher I

mean really gifted young man.

But I don't know how serious you were on passing on that question.

Really just a stalling mechanism.

I.

You know as far as how they were saved, you know.

The Bible sends an entire chapter in Hebrews 11 talking about the faith of the fathers, you know

talking about the great cloud of witnesses.

If you look at that

chatty the hero of the Old Testament.

Because you look at some of these characters and we would say yeah, I understand how Daniel

and and people like that.

But then you you know, you have really a hard time fitting Samson and Jephthah in

there and Jacob and

faith you have to look at

it.

My Thought on it is that they look

they look told to

flood the

earth with

Noah.

But the old that those promises, you know did

not looking forward to the Messiah that

God would would send him.

Is so to answer the question the exact same way.

It's not the exact circumstances.

But it is by great and by the blood of

Christ, even though he physically had not yet Died on Calvary's cross

in the Old Testament days.

They they are still only saved by his blood.

Are they not.

You know.

Somebody

explain it this.

When it's nighttime.

The night light shines and it shows just like a little bit of stuff and it's

just enough to keep.

It doesn't mean that the stuff Is not in her room.

Still when I come into the room in the morning and it's all lit up and I can.

It doesn't mean it was

it

doesn't mean that see it all and so we have more

information.

But they were

saved the

same it comes

down

to if there

was

another

way for people to get saved.

And this is a little bit of God.

I think that that's that's how

they got saved the Old

Testament as far as

they have a man in my church.

Basically like a Seventh -day Adventist understanding soul sleep.

Kind of.

Anyway, I Believe

that dying now in the

church

is happening.

It's part of the Old Testament saying nation you have

that time with with the Lord seeing Moses and Elijah.

Mm -hmm, and I don't think it I don't think it was just some You know type or figure, you know when the plain

sense makes sense.

It's no other sense.

The Bible says they saw Moses and Elijah Peter responded to that and said obviously

the Lord didn't want to do that, but so they're in some sort of intermediate

state

but and and so how all that works and and How they get there.

I don't think that the Bible really is super clear on on that supernatural

invisible realm.

I think sometimes people Speculate too much on that and teach it as dogma and I'm just not willing.

You know, I'd rather have tension in my theological system than to force everything into some sort of

pigeonhole.

I'll just admit that I don't think that the Bible is very clear on Where we go as far as New Testament

Christians, I think that It does appear that we are in some sort of intermediate state.

Paul says in first Matthew 15 that we shall not all sleep.

We shall all be changed and we'll put on incorruption and the nature of that.

I think that I believe that but the ethics of it I don't

know and I think that that is it's not.

You know something like we talked about with creation.

Sometimes we talk too much about the how and not the why you know is our

DNA and the human genome going to be changed somehow and you can get

and just totally miss the Why Paul even said that so.

So I could believe that You know Christians now are in some sort of intermediate state that we will be changed.

They're kind of the same.

Yeah.

Yeah, I would I would agree that there is an intermediary state that.

Because if you believe that the Day of Judgment is a future event that hasn't happened yet and it's a

fixed day Then obviously those both in

heaven Those headed for heaven and those headed for hell can't right now be in the

ultimate place where they will spend eternity.

Right, and you even see.

You know, I'm gonna mess up the reference but in Revelation I

want to say like

nine new heavens

in the new earth with

angels and fallen angels and there's all sorts of theories and stuff.

That make

a new

heaven and a new earth.

That seems to be

the and we have

to go to

our final break for the.

Day.

If you'd like to join us with a question for pastor Isaac Evans Our email address is Chris

Arnzen at gmail .com chris arnzen at gmail

.com.

Please give us your first name city and state and country of residence If you live outside of the USA

and we look forward to hearing from you after these messages.

Don't go away.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God or am I trying

to please?

Man, if I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi.

I'm Mark Lukins pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

Than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity.

But since that wasn't the Apostles priority, it must not be ours either.

We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and To be

vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth.

And love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area Please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750.

That's 508 -528 -5750.

Or go to our website to email us.

Listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our TV program entitled resting in grace.

You can find us at Providence Baptist Church ma org.

That's Providence Baptist Church ma org or even on sermon audio .com.

Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnes and we had some technical difficulty there with one of the ads that we were supposed to be playing.

So we apologize to our sponsors for not being able to air that for some reason.

What if you'd like to join us on the air with a question?

Our email address is Chris Arnes in a gmail .com Chris Arnes in at gmail .com and

Please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

We have a listener in Suffolk County, Long

Island Christopher who says I have family members in,

Massachusetts where it seems that a Christian has

Very little legal right to express his Christian faith in many spheres of life.

And I know that your guest is pastoring a church not far from Massachusetts in Connecticut.

I know this is off -topic, but is he similar.

Is he facing similar? challenges in his church to those in Massachusetts

where it seems that the government is nearly completely leftist.

It is you know, Connecticut in the government.

Personally, I don't put in who gets

elected or who does that's up Kings and puts down

in my

opinion.

It's not so much.

The.

Where you'll be a

lot

whatever your

opinion

is on recycling whether or

not you think it actually does one

thing I had to get used.

And growing up in Indiana, nobody did that.

I mean people were cycles recycle bottles and cans and stuff, but we don't have a bottle deposit

whether it's recycling or.

Little is part of being on

their margin over

recycling or how strict it is with Connecticut.

So I could I could

fall on my sword and make that these little things.

Oh.

All that does is minimize a

lot of

that comes from the that they just

grow up.

You can't can't say how you can be, you know, the

government's not.

I mean if we're just honest here.

It's not like we

live in New England and talk.

It's not a matter of

that.

You will get the police called on you.

If you're going door -to -door people would just call because it's annoying.

I mean, that's the truth.

They're not mad that you're passing out the gospel.

They're mad that you're knocking on their door and they would do that if you were doing anything.

If you're trying to sell them anything and so it's just a totally different mentality and if you

come in here, whether it's Massachusetts or Connecticut or really anywhere in New England or the Northeast

and you try to force a paradigm a

Methodology onto it you're going to be in a lot of trouble and you're going to be frustrated.

It's not cookie cutter it's unlike anywhere else in the country and You just have to be wise

about it.

It doesn't mean you don't take a strong position on things.

But you have to make sure that you have a wife disposition if you're just this annoying.

Do not a pragmatist.

So you just have to be wise about

how you people it's it's a plodding minute.

T -l -o -d -d -i -n -g.

It's it's a long you have to be in it for the long haul you know if you're looking to go start a church and

find 40 or 50 Baptists that are just looking to Join in

church because they're so you've got to be wise about how you

do things and you see that

with Paul how they you know, they were very convictional and

they spoke the truth and At times it potentially could have cost them their life and Paul

but they weren't you can take a strong stand on something.

I think that that's more evident

here than anywhere else in it and as you see with Daniel

Daniel, you know, they changed his name and They wanted to

teach him all sorts of stuff in basically the Babylonian public's but

where Daniel drew the line was the lifestyle.

He was not going to adopt the lifestyle.

He said you can change my name and whatever, you know I know what my name means and you can can

have me learn all kinds of stuff I know enough about don't mean to live but when it comes to

Defiling myself with the Babylon.

I'm not going to do that.

Daniel had taken some sort of stand on every single thing.

Well, then you're just you're just the curmudgeon.

That's against everything, you know, you're the Westboro Baptist Church.

You're just mad at everybody about everything and you

know, so you

have to just

decide that

and

and Be willing to I noticed I noticed on your website.

You have a quote from Rosario Dawson.

Rosario Butterfield.

Right, right

and being friendly and not, you know.

The people that that were calling her names and telling her whole lifestyle on a

front to God, you know she didn't listen to but the person I had over for dinner and I tried

to get to know her and didn't

call we we.

Have to expect that they have no other

nature, you know, people are going to be sinners and so we send it in and

You know.

Upset about it.

It is a mission field.

No.

No, I think you're doing a great job.

I want I want you to be as clear and You know, I

want you to answer the the questions as clearly as possible.

So you're doing a great job.

Different in every way that I had to decide.

Okay.

I'm just gonna recycle.

Anyone that really loves it.

But I just think it's a waste of time and I think it's gonna be a waste of time and you're actually hurting the environment.

More than you're helping it, but I don't.

I'm not gonna preach that from my pulpit, you know.

I I think that you have to be all things to all men that by all means you may win some and so if

I heard Al Mohler and he preached on that text and he said if

the things that we believe.

What is doctrine?

What is actual doctrine is very clear if our

theology is not on the table if our doctrine is not on the table than what is

and he says.

Everything else that we get so

things that are in

our generation and our culture and our civilization.

It's going to take all that.

We have that.

We cannot theologize that people do that.

And you just can't do that out here.

You really shouldn't do that.

Anywhere, but in the Midwest in the South the geographic South you can because people are just so

used to that issues.

But here, you know confront somebody about there,

you know out on Indiana you can get a handgun permit, you know.

You do fingerprints you pay like a hundred dollars and you have a lifetime.

Permit, you know and I might have some of this my point is out here.

It's like to pay a bunch of money and and it's just a big deal.

So I think that that like

shocks me.

I'm just not.

I just don't want to let things like that get in the way of someone's eternal soul.

You know whether it's in general you just have to

be spinning your wheel.

Yeah, Bill, basically We the gospel of Jesus

Christ is Offensive enough.

We don't have to add our own peculiarities to that offense and unnecessarily

offend people.

Is that basically where you're coming from?

You say on a Sunday morning is not the gospel.

If that's

not the most

offensive or to a person then you are doing something wrong.

Because like you said that's a as it on their tracks right there and

nothing else measures up.

We do have a listener in Kinross Scotland who has a question for you.

Murray in Kinross Scotland Says is there a sense

in which Christ was priest before his incarnation or?

Was he called by God as high priest after his incarnation?

Rendering Psalm 110 purely prophetic.

Well the the You you are uh, uh, you are a priest forever

after the order of Melchizedek.

Sure, you know in

Hebrew.

Yes.

Yeah.

You know, I think

that it's after the order of Melchizedek.

I don't know I could be

wrong about this fill in the blanks

there or

Melchizedek

now if

you believe that.

Yeah, I don't know.

I guess.

What do you make of?

Revelations 13 8 about the lamb that was slain from the creation of the world or before

the foundation of the world

was slain.

That's a

The lamb is slain before the foundation of the world it was

in the mind of God and that's where I think we get into Trouble by the way, not to

just sometimes when

people ask me questions.

I use Deuteronomy 29 29, which is a cop -out for me.

Which is the secret things belonging to the Lord our God.

And the rest of that verse things which are revealed Belonging to us and to our children

that we made are forever that we may do all the words of this law.

So I think sometimes we get caught up in secret things

belonging to the Lord

what we know to do.

Right.

So mind of God how

it

wasn't

some plans.

Just my personal take on that.

I don't know.

I know there's different uh degrees of.

Well, obviously obviously the effects of the atonement or the redemption that he provided through that shed blood

went uh to back in time to cover All of his people that he

called unto himself.

And that's why they are indeed Saved.

There was no other way that they could be saved if it weren't for the shed blood of the lamb, correct?

Absolutely, you know.

And and some of that is.

You know,

and

this is

where

a

little

bit is

the

timing

I did

not

in

like

some

sort of again.

That's

not them.

Well, even the

calvinists

disagree

over uh timing.

That's why

you have.

Infralapsarians and superlapsarians.

But uh if you could um.

Uh, basically summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before.

They leave the program today in just about three minutes time because we're running out of time today.

You know, I

think it it

you know, if you go

back to the we see

him and so I think that Whatever a person does they need to make sure that.

Not that christ is some, you know, they work a job or

they

ambition

if we

orient

ourselves

whether it's You know,

our context

might be

different but

when

sin

is tolerated from a ministry through them to them.

And so I think that we just have to be

Constantly

the way that we are

always speaking.

Well, I want to thank you so much for being our guest for the very first time, uh pastor evans.

Especially since it was such late notice.

And I want our listeners to know that the website for glastonbury baptist church is glastonburybaptist

.org.

That's glas as in sam t as in thomas o n as in nancy B

as in boy.

You are y baptist .org.

That's glastonburybaptist .org.

And don't forget about the upcoming conference That pastor evans is speaking at

along with pastor. Josh freiman of community baptist church in riverhead, long island, new york.

Reverend, john peoples Of grace presbyterian church in indianapolis, indiana and

dr. Russell fuller Who is professor of hebrew and old testament at

southern baptist theological seminary in louisville, kentucky.

This is going to be held at the pittsburgh baptist church in pittsburgh, indiana next

friday and saturday september 9th and 10th.

And for more details go to pittsburghbaptist .com.

P -i -t -t -s -b -o -r -o -baptist .com.

And I hope uh that if you go there that you mention iron sharpens iron radio.

I want to thank again pastor isaacs for being on the program.

I want to thank Tim challis our first guest for being on.

I want to thank all of you who took the time to write.

I hope you all have a safe joyful and god -honoring weekend and lord's day.

Especially since it's a an elongated weekend.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater savior than you are a

sinner.