September 2, 2016 Show with Tim Challies on “The Discipline of Spiritual Discernment”

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Chris Arnton Good afternoon

Cumberland county pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming

This is chris arns and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy friday

On this first day of labor day weekend, and I am so delighted That on this second day of september 2016.

I've got two New guests who have never been on the program before And I am eagerly looking forward to our interviews for the first hour.

We're going to have tim challis On the program. He is an author blogger book reviewer for world magazine, which is one of our sponsors of iron sharpens iron

And he's co -founder of cruciform press He's addressing the theme the discipline of spiritual discernment, which is also a book

By crossway publishing and we Always thank crossway for producing some very solid literature and the second hour

We have isaac evans who is pastor of glastonbury baptist church in connecticut and he is one of the speakers at the conference coming up in pittsburgh

Indiana on the centrality of christ throughout redemptive history. He's going to be speaking along with russell fuller

Who is an old testament professor at the southern baptist theological seminary in louisville, kentucky and some other speakers

And we will have him as our guest for the second hour god willing But first let me let me welcome for the very first time the honors iron sharpens iron tim challis

Hey, thanks for having me Hey tim, it's great to have you on the program and as I typically do especially with guests

That i'm interviewing for the first time If you could let our listeners know something about Your own upbringing in regard to religion uh when and how you came to faith in christ and Where you are at now in regard to your own

Theological positions of obviously in summary form if you could uh, tell us about that Sure.

Yeah, I was raised in a christian home Thank the lord for that my parents were saved into pentecostalism

And shortly after they were married went over to switzerland and bumped into a guy there named francis schaefer.

Oh, yeah came back Presbyterian and I was raised in in the uh reformed presbyterian and then eventually in the dutch reformed traditions primarily have since Changed one of my important views my view on baptism, which leads me now as a reformed baptist so, uh, but I have the joy of being raised in a christian home and uh

Myself and my brother and three sisters all know and love the lord and are following him now. So praise god

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, I happen to be very pleased with the The shift in your view on baptism because I also happen to be a reformed baptist

And uh actually have been Since shortly after my conversion in the mid 1980s

I was raised roman catholic and The very first church thanks be to god according to his providence the very first evangelical church that I began to Regularly attend and which

I eventually was baptized in and joined was a reformed baptist church so very soon after Uh going to that church.

I did come to embrace Those distinctives and praise god for them And uh you uh

Also are a prolific writer and you've got this book that Crossway has published titled the discipline of spiritual discernment.

I have been in christian radio For over 30 years And that seems to be a very seriously lacking discipline

Uh in the lives of many people, uh in broadcasting and obviously, uh in those who run

Operate and work for and own christian publishing houses, unfortunately uh,

I remember hank hanegraaff of the bible answer man, uh Once saying that most christian bookstores should have a sign over the door that says enter at your own risk and I know that those

Local christian bookstores are a dying breed because of the internet, but that certainly should be true with internet

Uh christian bookstore or book warehouses And so tell us what was the motivation behind the discipline of spiritual discernment?

Yeah, um, I actually wrote the book quite some time ago now So i'm thinking back and actually now just looking at the book again and thinking it's probably due for an overhaul

So i've been talking to various people about that and what it would look like to To kind of take another swing at it just to lightly revise it but where it came from was just uh

An understanding of my own life that I was not discerning enough and then just looking at the church and even a local church

That i'd left, uh fairly recently back in that time and just looking at the lack of maturity and the lack of spiritual discipline uh spiritual discernment in the people there and uh

Really came to see that spiritual discernment and spiritual maturity go hand in hand that you can't be discerning

And if you're not maturing you can't be mature if you're not discerning so Um and that way I wanted to emphasize discernment as a path to christian maturity as a necessary component

Of just growing up in the lord. You expect new believers to be Undefeated you expect long -time believers to be discerning and yet often that's not the case

They're still lapping up a lot of the nonsense that it's published by those publishers. You just mentioned And let me give the email address if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own

Our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com chris arnzen

At gmail .com at chris arnzen at gmail .com Please give us your first name at least your city and state

And your country of residence if you live outside of the usa And obviously you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable

Especially if we're discussing something like this On occasion we have listeners who are members of churches that they are noticing something that is uh giving them hesitation to agree with the leadership there and obviously they may feel uncomfortable about Identifying that church we would actually prefer you do that Not identify this church

Or religion, uh, or what have you unless it's of course a major uh false religion or cult or something like that, but uh

If you feel More comfortable remaining anonymous you may do so And by the way,

I also want to make sure I announce before I forget uh the upcoming g3 conference

Where our guest tim challis is one of many speakers Uh, this is going to be held january 19th through the 21st in 2017

I am so delighted that I will be there god willing Uh with an exhibitors booth, thanks to josh bice and the folks at praise mill baptist church uh, and uh also, uh getting out there to atlanta, georgia, thanks to One of my sponsors linbrook baptist church on long island, new york and I just really want to thank everybody who converged together to Make it possible for iron trip and zion to be there.

And this is one of the most phenomenal lineups Of speakers i've ever seen at a conference and one of the lengthiest if not the lengthiest paul washer stephen j lawson da carson vody baucom my dear friend

Of nearly 27 or 8 years. Uh, dr. James r white of alpha omega ministries our guest today tim challis

Uh, conrad and bayway who's been a friend of mine since 1995 One of the most powerful preachers on the planet earth if not the most powerful preacher

From a kabwatha baptist church of lusaka zambia africa Phil johnson who has been on iron sharpens iron

I think more than any other guest that we've ever interviewed phil johnson is the executive director of grace to you the ministry of john macarthur

And we have rosaria butterfield who we've had on this program twice Who is a former?

lesbian and leftist professor a tenured professor At syracuse university in new york and she of the grace of god was rescued from that damning and deadly lifestyle

And transformed by the grace of god. She is now married to a presbyterian pastor And has written a number of books.

I'm looking forward to meeting her in person after having interviewed her twice Todd friel who's been on this program a number of times from wretched radio and wretched tv

And that's just about half of the speakers, so If you'd like to go to that conference go to g3conference .com

G3conference .com that's g the number three conference .com And please if you register tell them that you heard about the conference from chris arnzen at iron sharpens iron radio uh, well, you know tim

I remember as I was just uh Recalling earlier my my all the years i've worked in christian radio

I remember chuckling when the One of the stations I worked for for 15 years

Would have surveys for their listeners uh on who their favorite, uh program hosts were and sometimes you would have people picking things that had nothing to do with one of the

It would 180 degrees polar opposites. You'd have people like saying something like my favorite programs are john macarthur and kenneth

Copeland or something like that, you know people who are in direct opposition to each other um

This is obviously a reflection of poor discernment or not even really listening to what people

Are saying or or seeing what they are writing? um If you could, uh

Tell us because this is obviously Cultivating a discipline.

It's not just telling people they must have spiritual discernment and then leaving them On their own you are actually giving a blueprint of some kind uh for Cultivating or developing the discipline of spiritual discernment.

What would be some of the initial? things that people should start doing when they are trying to achieve that goal of being

Biblically sound in their spiritual discernment I'd say the other thing it's not

I think this is important is it's not doing the work of discernment for people And there's a ton of ministries out there some of them good some of them appalling that Uh, just try to do that.

They're discernment ministries So what they do is create websites and say this person good this person bad and sometimes you can do that sometimes we need a little bit more nuance than that and Ultimately what we need is for people to grow in spiritual maturity spiritual discernment on their own

So they don't they don't need to rely on people the same way they can Develop the the ability to filter things

Uh on their own in their own mind and heart um I think one of the most important things people can do is focus primarily on the truth

Just to get to know god's word and get to know what's true get to know. It's lovely and right And when you know, what's good and what's true then what is evil or what is wrong really starts to stand out and start contrast

And where a lot of people go wrong is they spend all their time studying what is wrong studying what is bad

And eventually I think that can really spiritually cripple a person that can really spiritually harm a person

After a time because they're just dwelling in darkness So the absolute best thing you can do is get to know the lord get to know him through his word

Once you know who god is you'll start to understand very quickly when things do not match up or when things are polar opposite you said something earlier about people who

Like john macarthur and kenneth copeland and I think one of the things that that I find so difficult to understand and yet I'm sure we all do it in some ways is when we don't just like person a and person b

But we like person a and person not a if you will, you know We're not just people who believe slightly different things but people who believe polar opposite things

And yet somehow we can at times not not see that contradiction and I think a lot of people kind of get hung up there

They don't see the stark contrast the hundred percent contrast Between two different people and again, hopefully spiritual discernment allows people to see that Well, you know, uh in acts 831 we have that classic verse

Uh, how could I? Understand unless someone guides me, uh philip uh was being asked that question, uh by the ethiopian eunuch and Obviously Reading the bible and studying the bible

Is is vital and perhaps the most important thing along with praying about what you're studying, but obviously

There is some kind of a need For a guide to those who are teaching us

And unfortunately, we live in a fallen world. We are surrounded by In the church by sinners and just other fallible men uh, and we don't have a in the in the

True genuine church that jesus christ founded. We don't have a pope And even the roman catholic pope

Does not really settle all issues because the roman catholic church is splintered and probably in more directions than bible believing evangelicals are which is why why it's somewhat comical when

When uh, the roman catholic apologists accuse us of having a blueprint for anarchy in our understanding of sola scriptura when they are

Probably more divided than we are just under the same umbrella of roman catholicism. But uh, how do you answer that question when

We do need teachers and we need the right kind of teachers Well, we all need teachers and part of getting to know god's word

Yes, it's reading it on your own and having personal devotions quiet time, whatever you want to call it. That's important uh, but biblically the most important thing

I think is to be in a church to be under teaching of a

Somebody who's just teaching god's word that that person hopefully if he's going week after week to the bible and preaching

And just the point of the passage is the point of the sermon then, you know It's he's on the right track that hopefully over time you're being shaped and molded by someone who's deep in god's word

And one of the joys of sitting under expository preaching if you don't just get to know what the passage means

But you get to understand how to interpret the bible Right because you see the pastor going through the passage and the first question he's asking is not

How do I apply this to myself first? He's saying well, what did this mean to them? Then what did this mean to those people in that day once we understand that well now we can say, okay

How does this point to jesus? What does this have to do with him and only then do we start talking about how can I apply this to my life?

So just sitting under good preaching of the word someone who's basically week by week going to the bible drawing out his meaning

Showing you what it means to you through application. That's that's I think the absolute best way of growing in discernment

That's how to learn your bible And of course, uh, you have to be berean uh, you have to test everything that your teachers are saying

To see if they are in accordance with the word of god just as paul commended the bereans for doing he did not get insulted

And say who are you questioning? I'm an apostle Uh, you know, he actually applauded them.

He commended them for making sure everything he was saying was accurate we have to Cannot elevate our leaders and pastors to the point where they are such

Heroes, I mean i'm not I don't think there's anything wrong with having heroes I think it's a very right thing to have heroes, but when they be when we become blind to their faults and inconsistency

Inconsistencies and their fallibility We can erect idols in our lives with these teachers. Can't we? Sure and uh the best way you can

Be a berean is simply to literally have your bible open when the pastor's preaching Right.

I love it when the pastor says please keep your bible open That's not just so you can Have some memory aid or something to keep you on focus

That's so you can keep looking at the bible to make sure the pastor's right I don't know a good pastor who so thoroughly believes in what he's saying that he would say close your bible and i'll just tell you

Right every good bible believing pastor wants you to have your bible open so you can check every single thing

He's saying Against the standard of truth your pastor isn't the standard of truth. God's word is so keep going back there again and again and again

We do have a listener from lindenhurst, long island, new york cj who asks

In your opinion, what would be the three best books to give to a brand new convert in jesus christ?

Um, good question, there's some classics there's knowing god by j .i. packer.

There's um the what's it called Basic christianity by john stott.

There's there's so many um That would be ideal candidates But I think you'd want one that teaches him how to read his bible one that teaches him how to live the christian life

And one that teaches him how to get to know god So if you're if you're knowing god knowing how to live and knowing your bible,

I think you're well set up So, uh, one of the reasons I wrote a recent book called visual theology was to give to people who are new believers

To help them understand it's kind of a systematic theology of the christian life So there's lots of basic here's what the bible says about god.

Here's what the bible says about you books That's been well covered. Um, but I wanted to write one that kind of says, okay, you're a christian now

How does god expect you to live and so visual theology does that through words and then also through lots of Interesting graphics so that might be a candidate

That would be worth thinking about as well. Yeah. Well, we gotta have you back on the program to discuss that book

And who publishes that? That's from zondervan. Oh great well, uh, well by the way cj, uh

You're gonna get free of charge as our gift to you the discipline of spiritual discernment

Uh, thanks to our friends at crossway books And that's going to be shipped to you by our friends

At cumberland valley bible book service cv bbs .com. That's cv for cumberland valley bbs for biblebookservice .com

And we thank cv bbs .com for being a faithful sponsor of iron sharpens iron

So keep your eye open for that in the mail cj and we hope you enjoy that and feel free to pass it on to a new convert if that's uh, why you're asking that question perhaps, you know, somebody who's just came come to christ and you

Want to give them some good books. Well, uh, tim challis is a very faithful resource.

So We hope you enjoy that uh, what do you think, uh are the the most prevalent and harmful

Things being taught in the church today that seem to be even causing Those who were known for theological soundness to start to drift into aberrant thinking, uh, you know some of the what are the areas that are perhaps even shocking to you that Are coming out of even some of the circles that you and I are in theologically reformed or calvinistic circles or Having influence over them

Sounds like a good question for phil johnson since you have him on a lot Um, I think there's recently we've seen that whole heaven tourism genre come and now start to fade a little bit

But I think that was a fascinating case of people wanting to go beyond what the bible says people eager to find comfort spiritual peace

And yet going to going way beyond what the bible says to find it And when you look you step back and you look at the genre objectively

You just have to realize the utter absurdity of people finding greater comfort in the the supposed recounting of a six -year -old or a ten -year -old child

Rather than going to god's word, which has stood firm for thousands of years Uh, and yet people are really going to that kind of book and saying, okay now

I believe in heaven now I feel comfort in the afterlife. So It's one thing to examine the the book on its own and those books on their own

It's another thing to dig deeper a little bit and say, well, where did these books come from? What do they actually mean?

What did they mean to people? How were they? how are they sitting in people's hearts and minds and it's really

It's concerning to realize that people would rather take the testimony of a young child than of god's word

Uh, so that would be one that that jumps right out I had another in mind, but it uh flipped my mind as I was lathering on there

Well, it's interesting that uh that young, um in fact all of these, uh encounters

Seem to be getting a wide audience even in roman catholic circles And that strikes me as being odd because you would think that these people would be in purgatory

Not in heaven immediately And and a lot of them have done very well in new age circles as well and sometimes if you read these books

You read a little bit you want to look at the back cover and say hold on Is this a christian publisher or is this a new age publisher?

I find it's either or and they sound In some ways they sound remarkably the same But the other funny thing is every one of these heaven tourism books says a different thing about jesus

Coming into heaven. They're all different. So they're all the same in that they aren't going to the bible

They aren't saying what the bible says But then they're all different that their experiences are unique and very obviously a product of that author

Every author is seeing heaven in the way. He wants to see it whether there's an actual Near -death experience or whether you know, at least one of them was

Completely fabricated we know now so and I suspect time will show that that others were as well amen, uh, we have

I've got another one. I'd like to uh mention which is I think the growth of mysticism In christianity and that will probably be closely related to this but yeah mysticism defined as people wanting an experience of god apart from The word of god so people wanting to encounter god in this direct mystical way

And I think that's a very very dangerous teaching that inevitably every time Eventually removes the focus from the word of god and uh, you know through our sin

We don't have the kind of access to god that we wish we did right We're not face to face with him anymore.

That was cut off when we humanity fell into sin And that's the great promise of eternity To be restored, but for now god has graciously given us his word and his spirit and that's how we're to encounter god

Um, and so we need to be constantly going back to god's word not hoping for these kind of mystical experiences

That's where we think about um, jesus calling or a book like that by by sarah young Whose whose whole book is premised on this?

I sit down in the quiet and I listen and god speaks to me and i'm writing these things down and then

Handing them on to you as as new revelation And yet that book is sold tens of millions of copies and christians even conservative christians are

Are lapping it up and and not able to distinguish that from from truth

And so again, you'll have people reading sarah young and probably charles spurgeon or something as if those two devotionals

Are the same thing yet? They couldn't be more different We have tyler in mastic beach, long island, new york

Who asks why is it that many professing modern evangelicals say that doctrine does not matter?

When it divides correctly between heresy and orthodoxy Well, I think that's been a teaching for some time now and probably most of us have heard it at one time or another that Doctrine divides and you know in some ways

I understand because there's a lot of people who find Sound doctrine and then you know, they talk about the cage stage that for a while once you discover

Reform theology or you discover just theology in general It's almost like you need to lock yourself away because suddenly your eyes are open to this new thing and you want to talk about it and you can't understand why other people aren't excited about it and Theologically minded people have done a lot of damage often just by going in guns blazing instead of going in with With a peaceful heart and with good intention

They just they've gone into and really caused trouble and caused people to be hurt So in that way,

I think some of that reputation is well learned. However Doctrine is all that keeps us from from utter theological chaos.

That's all that keeps us from complete apostasy So we absolutely need doctrine But that's where and i've got a section in the discipline of discernment about this

The bible calls us to truth and love we can never ever divorce those neither one is more important than the other

So when we speak to people we've got to speak absolute truth With absolute love we get the two of those together

Now that's where the lord really starts to use us. So um Too many doctrinal theologically minded people neglect the love and I think that's where a lot of the trouble comes from Well, guess what tyler you're getting a free copy of the book that we are discussing today the discipline of spiritual discernment by tim challis

So keep an eye out for that and thanks again to crossway books for providing those

Copies of the discipline of spiritual discernment and also thanks to cvbbs .com

For shipping those out to our winners And in fact, we are going to our first break right now, and if you'd like to join us on the air as well

Uh, our email address again is chris arnzen at gmail .com chris

Arnzen at gmail .com Don't go away We're going to be right back after these messages with tim challis and more of our discussion

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that's wrbc .us Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnn's and if you just tuned us in our guest for the first hour is Tim Challis author blogger book reviewer for world magazine whose ad you just heard moments ago and Co -founder of cruciform press he's addressing the theme of his book the discipline of spiritual discernment

And the second hour we're going to be joined by Isaac Evans of Glastonbury Baptist Church in Connecticut Who will address the centrality of Christ throughout redemptive history our email address is

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and we have

BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Who wants to know it seems that most of the ministries with enough financial resources to be on?

television are Theologically bankrupt and dangerous Can you list at least a few that you would highly recommend a few

Televangelists, yeah. Yeah. I'm assuming that Well, I definitely

John MacArthur's program grace to you is on television networks throughout

Perhaps I'm I'd be shocked if they weren't in Canada as well on stations in Canada and also

RC Sproul's program Renewing your mind, which is an excellent program.

He is on radio stations and television networks all over the country and I Can't think of another one right off the top of my head but I'm sure that I will before the end of the program and I'll let you know and I apologize to those who have

TV programs that I'm overlooking right now But there are a number of them, but they are in the minority

I would agree with our listener BB and by the way, BB you're also getting a free copy of the discipline of spiritual discernment by our guest

Tim Chalice one of the chapters in your book

Discusses the will and discernment if you could comment further on that On what the will and discernment the will yeah.

Yeah Boy, you know what? I wrote the book long enough ago. I'm not

Well, obviously when I read that title I'm thinking that That this is not something that even though we're

Calvinists both you and I it's not something that is going to zap us and we're automatically going to be

Having a brain like a computer that can spit out anything that is unbiblical and absorb everything that is we've got to be willingly involved with Disciplining ourselves.

I'm assuming that's what you may be talking about. Yeah No, I think I talked about that but then more so I think it was how to know and do the will of God Part of discernment because so many of the

Christian books on discernment are essentially that how to discern God's will and we talked earlier about mysticism and a lot of them are really

Nothing less than full of mysticism that you have to be still and listen and God will reveal his will to you or he will reveal it through circumstances or through modern variations of places and all that and My point was that no we can discern

God's will by going to God's Word and discerning God's will is actually Generally quite simple.

It's not nearly as difficult as we make it. We simply Go to God's Word to find out what God says

We must do or must not do After that we try and discern what would be wise and if we still don't know then we get to do whatever we want to Do and God will bless us a long way

So we have a lot of freedom before the Lord to to figure out what his will is in so far as he reveals it

And then to do what we think will Satisfy God We have

Jeff from Clinton Township, Michigan Who says John Stott was an annihilationist

Tim Keller is an evolutionist How does a Christian determine what teaching is acceptable and what isn't and what's allowed?

I guess he's speaking about What teaching from each of these individuals and others who may have some things that are very solid that they teach and they have some things that surprise us

That they that we might consider to be aberrant the the reformed faith

There are many in the reformed faith that you and I embrace that would uphold both of these men as as trustworthy leaders and Yet what our listener is saying is true

John Stott Although I don't know if he was a committed an annihilationist. He certainly believed it was an acceptable understanding of eternal eschatology and Tim Keller is on the record for being a believer in theistic evolution and Both of these men also have been praised by some of my heroes

Like I know Sinclair Ferguson who's one of my modern -day heroes had Tim Keller write the forward for his latest book

So if you could comment on that Well, that's difficult, I don't know that I want to speak to either one of them specifically

I'm right that's not over and You know, both of them are I would say we could say broadly annihilationist

Evolutionist and yet even those words have various shapes and meanings We need to talk about exactly what they believe what they affirm and what they deny.

So Tim Keller would believe in theistic evolution perhaps I'm sure he believes in a historical

Adam, which many theistic evolutions would not evolutionists would not know But I think when we look at any person and we dig deep enough into them

We come to a point in their theology or in their character Where we just kind of have to scratch our heads and say something doesn't make sense

This doesn't seem consistent, but I was at Matthew Henry or one of them He said the best of men are but men at their best, right?

That's exactly what we find that all of us have these weaknesses and shortcomings And what's what's funny about it is we tend to be blind to our own

We see others so so clearly and yet we're convinced that we've got it all figured out that we couldn't possibly have

This big hole in our character or this big hole in our theology And so I think is looking at men who have had great ministries and look at John's thought and just I mean

Look at his commentaries read his commentaries and be blown away by his understanding of God's Word and his amazing ability to Summarize it and to bring application from it.

My library would be impoverished without John's thoughts commentaries And yet so we can look at that and say godly man the

Lord was used of the Lord I don't understand how he could have believed that but is does that undo the other things?

Is that the kind of theology or anything? We need to throw out his commentaries. He's not trustworthy I just don't think it is and that that's one of the

Perplexing things about being a human being we're all so messed up. We're all such a mess of contradictions in our own way

We just don't see our own. Yeah, and another Name like like John Stott would be

J. I Packer who has written things that have been such an Enormous blessing to the body of Christ and yet many have their eyebrows raised over the extreme ecumenism embraced by him and even

Dr. Martin Lloyd -Jones had problems with his ecumenism. So I just like what you said earlier the best of men are men at best and although we are to glean all we can from Men who have a reputation for biblical soundness.

We cannot be blind to their their failings and faults and Errors and look upon them as infallible in any way

Right and just have to assume that with anybody over time things will will come out again

Whether that's on the character side or on the doctrine side we are just To have everything just right

And so that's I think for many of the godly men We love and admire if you really got into their lives, you see that there's a lot of authoritarianism.

There's a lot of people left behind in their wake that have just been left behind at you know through various means so there's always something and We just can't discount an entire ministry because of that.

In fact, I've had a couple of guests on recently who are very strong Calvinists the theologically reformed brethren and yet they

Were on my show talking about the great need for especially seasoned

Christians to be willing to Learn from and read the writings of some great men of God who are not

Calvinists. Would you agree with that? Oh Absolutely. Yeah We need to I think we need to read the best of Non -Calvinist, right?

There's lots of good out there and I think we do well to read some of the people who are very head -on

Challenging what we believe how are you gonna grow if we just block our ears and kind of huddle on our own side? We need to read some of those critiques and I think we've seen that in a lot of ways in this world people in this

You know little corner of the Christian world people critiquing Calvinism Well, I think it's very good for us to read that people critiquing complementarianism doesn't mean we need to change our views but it does us a lot of good to see how other people perceive us other believers perceive us and Where maybe we are blind to our own faults?

We have to assume a measure of blindness in ourselves again. We see it in others

We've got to assume it's in ourselves as well and then humbly prayerfully. Here's some of that critique and say was this true?

Well, Jeff You are also getting a free copy of the discipline of spiritual discernment by our guest in Charlie's so thank you very much for the question and One of the chapters in your book.

I hope that you remember something about this chapter, but it has such a

Striking title. I'm thinking it may jog your memory the dangers of discernment that almost seems oxymoronic

Yeah, well it does except that I think we've seen over the last number of years that there really are dangers in discernment and the dangers are not the fault of discernment not the fault of God or the

Bible there are fault and I Think what we've seen is a lot of people get so deep into discernment that they begin to lose their joy.

They begin to Focus so much on what negative they begin to dwell in the world of the negative that they really become

Hardened and they become embittered they become sarcastic They can become very angry and there's been a number of people who have spent all this effort in being

Discerning but they themselves have become very hard to be around or they become very

You know, it's just their characters seem to suffer so that's why right from the get -go I said we've got to be focusing on what's true and lovely and beautiful and Trust them that as we do that all that's gross will stand out and really start

Contrasting and we'll find it does so you don't have to be discerning by going into the filth

You don't have to spend all your time crawling around YouTube looking for bad stuff And just trust that as you as you focus on what really is lovely and pleasing to the

Lord that the rest will stand out I couldn't help but immediately think when you were starting to describe that chapter.

I couldn't help but think of AW pink who has been such a tremendous blessing to the body of Christ and so theologically sound

So right on the money. I even know anti -calvinists who love a lot of what a

W pink wrote and yet he wound up didn't he become Somewhat like a hermit.

He just kind of withdrew himself From the church. He just thought everybody was going to hell in a handbasket and it was hardly a remnant to be found anywhere

Yeah, that's my understanding anyways, and I haven't read carefully enough but certainly my understanding that he ended up moving off with his wife and kind of getting further and further from the visible church and kind of discerned himself right out of the

Church and generally when people do that I think the church is pretty happy to see them go to because they don't

People who are awfully happy to be around and people who are awfully happy to serve in the church and all that and you know

Maybe in his circumstances that was all he could do Was right around him, but I've seen a lot of people essentially do that or over time

There's there's not a church that is good enough for them anymore And my oh my you've got to be pretty concerned if there's no church

If you go out to churches around and not one of them is good enough for you Definitely at least need to question yourself before you question every other church.

All right, and by the way I do not want anybody to hesitate Buying and reading books by A .W.

Pink because he certainly was a phenomenally gifted brother in Christ prolific writer and He is definitely somebody that every one should include in their library shelves because he just he has he has been used of God to open up the eyes of Countless individuals to not only the gospel, but even some of the finer points of theology like the doctrines of grace.

So And what specifically are you going to be addressing

I don't even know if you are fully Have It nailed down yet, but do you know what you're specifically speaking on at the g3 conference?

No, but I've been told I will in a couple of weeks. So the theme is 500 anniversary of the

Reformation and I think the focus will be on something drawn out of that time period

I would expect a point of Calvinism or the Solas or something like that.

I would imagine there will be a pretty steady focus right there Then just to remind our listeners again

That website for more details on the g3 conference is G the number three conference comm

G the number three a conference comm and I really hope to see as many of you as possible at that conference

Now put a little pitch out. Let me put a little pitch out for it because I've been to that conference since it started

I guess I've been there three or four years in a row since it began and it's a really nice conference

The church that has always hosted it. They've been wonderful and Josh Bice put together a really good event now this year

They've done it differently. They're not hosting it in their church. They're hosting it near Atlanta Airport Bigger event because of the magnitude of 500 years of since the

Reformation but it's a really good event and as you can see they've brought in this long list of speakers and Boy if you can hear da

Carson and James White and Bodhi Bachman all these people all at one time.

That's a pretty good opportunity, especially if you're local to in the Atlanta area Amen, and I have had most of the speakers there on this program and I am eagerly and Enthusiastically trying to get all of the speakers.

I possibly can to be interviewed before The conference itself and I can tell you that Josh Bice the organizer

Of the event is returning God willing to iron sharpens iron once again on Monday, September 26th 4 to 6 p .m.

Eastern Time and he did a wonderful job the last time he was with us and I'm hoping to as I said get all of these speakers on the program and I just Thoroughly excited about this

Now going back to the the discipline of discernment

Can you Basically give some more as we conclude the program some practical advice regarding Prayer and and reading and not only scripture reading but any other kind of study that you would

Recommend to help cultivate this kind of discernment in the life of a Christian Yeah, I think we see the value of good books, right?

And As Christians, we've been Christians for a while. We know that we we should be in our

Bible every day We know that God just expects us to be taking his word in and we know how good it is for us to do that And so I think it's

Donald Whitney's a Bible intake as a category So whether you're listening to it or reading it on your own or reading it as a family or reading with your spouse or with?

Friends or whatever, of course going to church to get the Bible into you The Bible can't change you the

Holy Spirit can't change you through his word if you're not bringing that word in So every Christian has to have this deep commitment to God's Word.

So every day being God's Word But then supplement as well with really good books

So read God's Word then read really good books and there's such joy and in reading

And just being changed through those books and if you're like me you you read a book and two months later

You can barely remember anything about it But we've got to trust that God is working in us still and that the our sanctification isn't dependent on what we can remember of a book

But just the attitude we had as we read it and our prayers as as we read it and our trust that God works

Even through the words of his people as they as they write for us So become a become a reader if you aren't now become a reader enjoy reading

Read widely read really good books and on my website. I've got a whole section of book reviews you can go diving in and find some read some of those

AW pink books or J. Ed Packer's knowing God or Some John Stott's book on the cross.

There's so many good books That's considered his is probably his magnum opus, isn't it?

Or is at least is one of his greatest and highly recommend works Yeah, the cross of Christ I think is probably his the book he's best known for and such a good book just on substitutionary atonement just a wonderful read and Why not plug?

Cruciform press since it's something that you helped found The website is cruciform press comment that actually that that title has

Something near and dear to my heart because I have an ad agency that I operate That is cruciform media

So I love that term cross -shaped cruciform, yeah Yeah, so cruciform press was a small publisher.

We started a number of years ago, and it really came out of a book I had written called sexual detox a guide for guys who are sick of porn and I was looking to publish it and was interested in trying something other than a standard

Christian publisher and so I got together with Kevin Meath who is already in Christian publishing and editing and we started it and That was the first book out the door since then.

We've got quite a collection going now and another recent book I wrote called do more better a guide to Christian productivity as well and lots of other books there as well

So all of our books are about a hundred pages and they're written for a general audience

And I think you'll find something there that you'll enjoy Yeah, in fact, I don't even know if you're aware of this but someone over at crucifix

Someone over at cruciform press was kind enough to Ship us books for all of the pastors that attended my last iron sharpens iron

Pastors luncheon. In fact, I believe it was do more better now that I think about it yellow cover

Yeah, we had nearly a hundred men there at the iron sharpens iron pastors luncheon recently a few months ago and We were very happy to give those out to each and every pastor that attended the event

So we think we thank cruciform precedent Of course, I can't forget solid ground Christian books who sponsors this program solid -ground -books .com

Solid -ground -books .com if you have a book that you want to buy it for a loved one or yourself

It's a very faithful and trustworthy resource as well From with the authors from the past and the present the best of the authors from the past and the present

We Have a listener who wants to know in this day and age of rampant homosexuality

There seems to be two extremes in the Christian Church on one polar opposite end you have those who demonstrate hate and or even unconcerned towards those

Involved in that activity and then you have on the other extreme even evangelicals who seem to have become very soft on that sin and View it as being no more serious than an occasional losing of the temper or something

What is your guests advice for having biblical discernment on how to address this issue?

Well, the Bible speaks very clearly and very plainly about the issue of homosexuality and I was just talking about good books

There's been some really good ones written on the subject. You mentioned Rosaria Butterfield earlier her book secret thoughts of an unlikely convert is a very good book on that subject and There's one called is

God anti -gay by Sam Albury, which is very good as well So, you know, we haven't for a long time in North America We haven't had a lot of social cost involved with being

Christians We've been able to be Christians and that was a respectable thing to be Maybe we get in trouble if we got all

Ray Comfort and started really preaching the gospel to people But you know as long as we just kind of behaved ourselves, there's there's really no cost or consequence to being a

Christian Well now there is There it's growing Anyways where the cost is getting higher and higher and I think what we're going to see is a lot of people

Drifting away from the church drifting away from their Christian beliefs or what they've always held as Christian beliefs now that suddenly it's hard to be a

Christian and people are looking down at You for being a Christian and this issue of homosexuality and transgenderism and everything that's caught up in it

It's really serving as a kind of filter and even very liberal Christians are essentially saying that this is the issue

That's going to divide one group of people who claim to be Christians from another who? Claim to be

Christian or maybe are tired of claiming that so We need to really be on our guard here.

We need to know what we believe We need to know what the Bible says and then be willing to well first We need to ask ourselves am

I willing to pay the cost am I willing to have people look down on me? because of this am I willing to be thought as as a bigot because of this and If we are and if we believe that's what

God's Word calls us to then We'll just have to suffer as Christians have always suffered in this world well,

I would like you to basically summarize in the next three minutes of what

You would most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before they leave the program today Well, I guess just the value of being a mature discerning

Christian and so be people of the word We've got to be people who are deeply rooted and grounded in God's Word There's no better place no firmer ground to stand than that And so we need to be

Christians of the word and that'll only happen if we're getting it into our lives, right? if we're getting it in through personal devotions and family devotions and couples devotions and meeting with friends and just in every way you can

Get the word into you and as that word goes deep it will transform you it will change your character

But it'll also give you the ability and the desire to separate good from evil. You'll hate to do what's wrong

You'll hate to believe what's wrong because that diminishes God and elevates yourself when you believe what's true when you see in God's Word What's true and it elevates

God and diminishes you both go into their proper place and once you've tasted a sound doctrine

There really is no going back. There's nothing sweeter. Nothing more satisfying than truly knowing who

God is Amen anything other than what you've mentioned on the

The drawing board for Upcoming books that you plan on on writing and publishing

Yeah, we're talking about another volume of visual theology perhaps coming out in a little while I've got something that may interest your listeners

I'm going to I've got an open invitation that people can take a course with RC sprawl He'll be teaching a course on justification and I'll be moderating it

Wow Right and look for the headline take a course with RC and me

You can sign up for that course and RC's got the the teaching done and then

I'll be Moderating it and there's about 3 ,000 people from I think it's 28 countries who are taking it so far.

So Wow Wow, well Definitely.

I know that your website is chalice calm Ch a LL is calm and people can go to that for more details and please if you could tell dr

Sproul we would love to have him back on Iron sharpens iron. He was a guest once on the program and I know it's harder and harder to get him interviewed

But I would love to get him back on this program again alrighty Well, you know, it's been an honor and privilege to have you on Tim and I really look forward to God willing having you return as a guest

On a number of occasions in the future if you are willing and if God opens the door for that That would be great.

Thanks for having me. Hey my pleasure. And once again, Tim Chalice website is chalice calm ch a

LL is calm and His website for his publishing ministry that he co -founded his cruciform press calm

Cru ci F as in Frank or M as in Mary press calm.

God bless you, Tim thank you and Coming up in our second hour of the program.

We have a pastor Isaac Evans joining us he is the pastor of Glastonbury Baptist Church in Glastonbury, Connecticut and he is going to be talking about a conference that he is going to be speaking at along with Russell Fuller of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and a number of other folks and if you stay tuned

We're going to be joined by Pastor Evans after this state Don't don't go away.

We're going to be right back after these messages Charles Hedden Spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read

He who never quotes will never be quoted. He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains

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See the Long Island galleries display ad at iron sharpens iron radio calm

Linbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Linbrook Long Island is teaching

God's timeless truths in the 21st century Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service

It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement

It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing We're a diverse family of all ages

Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship play and together. Hi I'm pastor

Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can

Call in Brook Baptist at 5 1 6 5 9 9 9 4 0 2 that's 5 1 6 5 9 9 9 4 0 2 or visit

Linbrook Baptist org that's Linbrook Baptist org. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen and our second guest for this evening is

Pastor Isaac Evans. He is pastor of Glastonbury Baptist Church in Glastonbury, Connecticut And he is one of the featured speakers at the

Christ our Redeemer Conference to be held next weekend Friday and Saturday of next week at the

Pittsburgh Baptist Church in Pittsburgh, Indiana That's Friday September 9th and Saturday September 10th among the other speakers include my very dear friend pastor

Josh Fryman of Community Baptist Church in Riverhead, Long Island, New York Pastor John peoples of Grace Presbyterian Church in Indianapolis, Indiana and dr

Russell Fuller who is the plenary speaker? he is a professor of Old Testament at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky and We are honored and privileged to have for the very first time one of the other speakers

Pastor Isaac Evans. Welcome to iron sharpens iron Hey, how you doing?

Good to be on. Thank you. Yeah, it's my pleasure brother and As I always do when

I have a first -time guest if you could especially if they are a pastor Let us know something about Glastonbury Baptist Church and and forgive me if I am mispronouncing that.

Oh Sure. It's a it's Glastonbury but anyway, it was a church plant in 2008 and the pastor left in May of 2015 and so on the second pastor,

I guess we did have some interims for a couple months there But I've been there since November of 2015 and Glastonbury is about six miles south of Hartford.

It's still in Hartford County, but it's kind of rural but so the church is is small and growing and We Are just kind of a young church will celebrate our 8th anniversary

September 18th, so we're getting excited about that Great, and as you know, I also happen to be a

Baptist I am a member of Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, which is a reformed Baptist Church Adhering to the 1689

London Baptist Confession of Faith, but as you know being a Baptist as well There are all kinds of Baptists.

Can you kind of summarize? What kind of Baptist Church Glastonbury Baptist Church is?

Oh the best kind We were unaffiliated with any sort of convention and you know, if you read our

Doctrinal statement you can read it online and and it It it would follow

In some aspects the 1889 or the Philadelphia Confession, but in some aspects it would deviate

At the you know, I hesitate to call myself reformed or Calvinist or Arminian.

I I feel like those labels are so nuanced that Sometimes they do more harm than good

So, so yeah, we're just You know

Unaffiliated Baptist Church Depending on who you talk to we might in essence depending on What Calvinist you talk to we might be

Arminian Just I kind of Labels as best as I can and just try to you know, teach what the

Bible says, which is what everybody says but Yeah, that's kind of how we are.

We What will even Charles hadn't Well, you answered it as best as you wanted to and Charles Haddon Spurgeon is

In the same company of those who was called a hyper Calvinist on one side and another

Arminian on the other. So sure, and now

I typically ask especially with first -time guests a summarized

Version of their testimony of what kind of religious atmosphere you were raised in and how you came to know the

Jesus Christ of the Bible and trust in his gospel Well, I was

We had we had gone to churches off and on to the Baptist Church off and on When I was nine, my dad took me to a real rural

Baptist Church in Indiana and Central, Indiana and I responded to the preaching that night

On a Sunday night service and got saved and then was baptized and I've always kind of felt like I was called to preach

If that can be a thing before you're saved I guess depending on who you talk to it and but um, and Then never really was discipled in Growing up until I was about 19.

I Surrendered to that calling and went to Bible College and worked in various ministries and now

I'm in Connecticut. So That's kind of my testimony in a nutshell Say when

I was nine, but really didn't Respond in any sort of Positive way 19 had graduated college or high school my brother actually had gone to college before me to Bible College before me and was praying for me and I was resisting and didn't want to go and then

Finally one day I just Acquiesced to the Holy Spirit. So now would that be?

Would that be pastor Brock Evans? Yes, he is my brother He's four grades older than me he's about three and a half years older so yeah, he's

My brother, I'm pretty sure that's the only reason he's having me speak at this Yeah, he is pastor of Pittsboro Baptist Church in Pittsboro, Indiana who is running this conference

The Christ our Redeemer conference and it's on the theme the centrality of Christ throughout redemptive history

And what specifically do they have you speaking on at this conference next weekend?

I'm going to be teaching a session on seeing

Christ in the book of Esther and You talk to the other fellows before but You know, the idea is think like the

Old Testament a lot of times we Neglect to see Christ and we just make the

Old Testament into morality tales and stories and and so when you get to Esther, it's particularly hard because As you know that the name of God is not mentioned in Esther.

So sometimes people have a hard time finding God let alone Christ and so I'm just going to expose that so how

Even though it's not Explicit it is very evident that Christ is still the main character in the book of Esther and I'm looking forward to that, but it's kind of a challenge but We'll see

Well, if you could I don't want to steal the thunder of your messages at the conference

But if you could summarize the most profound Thing that you saw in Esther as a

As a picture of Christ being vividly present in those texts

You know, it's not necessarily in my opinion a matter of like types and figures and pictures as much as It's it's a lot of it's just hermeneutics

Look at the way People interpret Not just Esther, but really a lot of stories in the

Old Testament. They'll look at Joseph or Moses or Jonah's and They'll they'll make them the central character

You look at it and you see it's kind of just to be honest It's kind of a formula that I've adapted from.

I don't know if you know who David Prince is. He's a Southern Baptist preacher and Assistant professor of preaching at Southern seminary

But he wrote a book called church with Jesus as the hero and it's it's it focuses on hermeneutics of finding the person that's out of order in the story and So just summarize that you find you find the person.

That's the bad guy, you know And a lot of times we look at stories like David and Goliath or in this case

Esther We say well the bad guy is a hazardous or the bad guy is Haman, but really

While they are the bad person in the story We are prone to be like that You know, we like to say we'll be like David or be like Esther and be like Mordecai But the truth is more often than not we are like as you are we are like Haman you know, we are out of order like God and we are living outside the covenant that God has

Wanted us to live in and we are in the predicament that there are people that are trying to kill us and and we are that that person so So then you find the

Small hero in the story which in this case would be Mordecai or Esther But they're still a sinner

They still have they have a heroic action and they are in line with the gospel, but they are still a sinner

They still have flaws and so The real hero is

Christ We see that Christ is somebody that's born into the

Coming from heaven to earth, you know, he's born as it were beyond enemy lines just like Esther was you know, she grew up in in the

Persian Empire and and was a person that was Persecuted and and really a stranger to the earth and to her context and we see that that's the same way that Christ was and so So you just see those similarities?

how Esther Fulfilled some of those things but she's not the ultimate hero of the grand story of redemption that Christ is

Christ meets all the criteria of Redemption He you know, the

Colossians one says has delivered us from the domain of darkness The same way that we see

Esther do but if you don't relate that to Christ then End up with moral stories that could be the same as in David Prince calls it little

Bo Peep theology It's remarkable I recommend the book

He says, you know little Bo Peep lost her sheep and You could you could preach that the same way a lot of people preach you don't even need the

Bible where you have this problem in your life and And then you were like, well, we all have problems in our life.

Don't we you know, sometimes we're And we don't know what to do and and then you kind of interject Jesus toward the end and say well

Jesus could solve your problems and he can make your life better. You don't even need a Bible text for that but Seeing the centrality of Christ in these

Especially in this conference in the Old Testament Stories really helps us see the redemptive themes

Not only in the New Testament, which are pretty evident, but also in the Old Testament that Christ is the ultimate

Redemptive hero that he can was the story of the text That he saved the

Jews in a way that Esther Could not ultimately do and then he'll return and eventually crush the serpent and so You know, we have to the same way that Esther The same way that she responded in faith is the same way that we were faced, you know, we

Esther, you know, the famous phrase is that she was put in the kingdom for such a time as this

And we think that we're just waiting for our time but It's it's now, you know,

God has a plan for us and it's not a matter of Fitting Christ into our lives.

It's a matter of how we fit into the meta narrative that Christ is doing throughout Scripture Particularly with redemption

And yeah, we have been having a number of guests on lately Providentially who have been talking about Christ in the

Old Testament and really to to not see Christ in the

Old Testament where he is intended to be seen is You may really developed a very unbiblical

Concept of the Godhead because it's it many Christians act as if Christ did not exist until his incarnation

Which which is obviously a heretical understanding of God and of Christ Sure.

Yeah, and you know, I think that I don't want to you know broad brush because you know,

I just hate being in that category or doing that but you do see a lot of this in some of the preaching that I've heard is

Particularly in the Old Testament how They people just don't don't even talk about Christ you can have a whole sermon and all this

You see this with creation, you know people talking and get into the little nuances of creation and the the what and the string theory and they're talking about space time and And all this stuff and it's and they never mentioned

Christ and the Bible says that you know He spoke all things that are with the word of his mouth

You know the Hebrews 6 or Hebrews 11 tells us that everything we see is made from things that were not seen and so you really

Caught up in the what and not the who With whether it's creation or moving on and seeing this big story throughout the

Old Testament and it's really sad because What it does is it it doesn't really give people the real the real answer to their their problem

Which isn't do this or do that. It's come under the authority of Christ And let him live in you and through you

And so It's teaching people. Well, you're six ways to do that. And here's five ways to do this and you know, here's

Ways to control your finances, but they just leave Christ out of that not That we have, you know, the only answer that we have to the world isn't our schemes and plans and because we're better businessmen to show people how to live their lives better somehow, but under the guise of a

Christian Filter but is that you have to let Christ Be what you orient your life around not just another thing that you add to it, so So, yeah,

I I think that that's needed or Preaching the way we interpret

Scripture understanding that not only did God have a plan for Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, but that They were part of fulfilling his overarching

Metanarrative and we are to God is still working and when we see tragedy, whether micro or macro

God is still in control of that and we fit in And it's that perspective that I think has to be taught and preached in our churches

We have a listener in Augusta, Maine John who s Do were the

Old Testament saints saved in the same exact way as the New Testament Saints and are the

Old Testament saints in glory with Christ right now By the way, how well do you know pastor

Josh Fryman because your sense of humor is nearly identical to his so far You don't always have to be funny

We became friends about a year and a half ago we I was going to do some personal stuff and he was kind of those relationships where you

Kind of get to know each other on Twitter and social media and then when I moved to Connecticut about a year ago we met and we went over to Long Island and he came over to New London and Just Even though we haven't known each other really that long

Yeah, he's a great brother and he almost Was going to be my pastor, but I unexpectedly moved to Carlisle, Pennsylvania So but I have nothing but the highest regard for for Josh from in and he's a really phenomenal preacher

I mean really gifted young man But I don't know how serious you were on passing on that question

Really just a stalling mechanism I You know as far as how they were saved, you know

The Bible sends an entire chapter in Hebrews 11 talking about the faith of the fathers, you know

Talking about the great cloud of witnesses were saved by faith through grace if you look at that chapter

There are and this goes back to the centrality of Christ and how he has to be the hero of the Old Testament Because you look at some of these characters and we would say yeah

I understand how Moses makes it in and Abraham is obviously the father of faith and and Daniel and and people like that, but then you you know, you have really a hard time fitting

Samson and Jephthah in there and Jacob and and and so you have to reconcile that it's not a matter of Because they were just great people of faith you have to look at it the object of their faith

And so that was Christ in the Old Testament. That's Christ in the New Testament my

My thought on it is that they looked toward the the Redeemer they look toward the desire of nations, which is

Christ the Messiah and and they appropriated their faith in that promise There were other promises with land or with Isaac or to flood the earth with Noah But the old that those promises, you know did not

Give them eternal life. I believe that Looking forward to the

Messiah and putting their their faith in him That God would would send him is

So so the answer the question in the exact same way. It's not the exact same Circumstances, but it is by grace through faith

And that's the way that anyone's ever been saved and by the blood of Christ, even though he physically had not yet Died on Calvary's cross in the

Old Testament days They are still only saved by his blood. Are they not?

Correct. Yeah, I mean those you see those things typified in the Old Testament sacrifices in the way that Christ fulfilled

Those sacrifices and even down to the dates of the sacrifices and and You know,

I heard somebody explain it this way how? Like my daughter have a four -year -old she'll should be four tomorrow and she has a nightlight and When it's nighttime the nightlight shines and it shows just like a little bit of stuff and it's just enough to keep her

Calm so she can go to sleep, you know kids are often afraid of the dark It doesn't mean that the stuff

Is not in her room still when I come into the room in the morning And it's all lit up and I can it doesn't mean it was gone in the middle of the night.

I Didn't show it. It's the same thing with the Old Testament when we See how

Christ Typified and fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies and types are fulfilled the types

It doesn't mean that if Christ wasn't there it just means we didn't see it all and so we have more information now

But they were saved the same way by grace through faith and Sacrifice and and how much of that they really understood is debatable.

I think It seems like the the disciples on the road to Emmaus were just reeling from the death of Christ So maybe they were just bad disciples even though the 12 or the 11 at that time were

Scattered and so it was definitely a traumatic event, you know, I think that they understood the resurrection but obviously

Paul In the New Testament as well as the gospel writer to elaborate on that stuff

And so I think that you have to just have that perspective Otherwise, I think it comes down to if there was another way for people to get saved ever

Then Why would Christ come I think it you know, and this is a little bit of just ration out which is dangerous

But if God could have just any other way you would think that he would do that instead of sacrificing his only son

If there was some other way that we could expiate our sin So I think that that's that's how they got saved in the

Old Testament as far as Are they in glory, I'm actually a man of my church that believes that when you die

That you are basically in a state of unconsciousness Basically like a Seventh -day Adventist understanding soul sleep

Kind of kind of you know, he believes that You know will be resurrected

You know, he takes some passages and out of Ecclesiastes how the dead they know nothing and and you know

There means they experience nothing and and Solomon is certainly writing from an under the

Sun on a perspective and so it's it's kind of Get you to get your theology from that.

Anyway, um, I believe that Testament saying

With the Lord, I believe that people that die now in the church age are with the

Lord it is Confusing I'll admit and it's not exactly clear and What exactly is happening because it's part of the

Old Testament thing You have on the Mount of Transfiguration you have the

Apostles or the disciples at that time with with the Lord seeing Moses and Elijah Mm -hmm, and I don't think it

I don't think it was just some You know type or figure, you know when the plain sense makes sense speak no other sense you know

Bible says they saw Moses and Elijah Peter responded to that and said build tabernacles and obviously the

Lord didn't want to do that, but So they're in some sort of Intermediate state.

I believe in a resurrection after later on but And so how all that works and and how they get there

I don't think that the Bible really is super clear on on that Supernatural invisible realm

I think sometimes people Speculate too much on that and teach it as dogma and I'm just not willing

You know, I'd rather have tension in my theological system than to force everything into some sort of pigeonhole

I'll just admit that. I don't think that the Bible is very clear on Where we go as far as New Testament Christians, I think that It does appear that we are in some sort of intermediate state

Paul says in 1st Corinthians 15 that we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed This corruption will put on incorruption and the nature of that I think that I believe that but the specifics of it,

I don't know and I think that that is deliberate because It's not

You know something like we talked about with creation. Sometimes we talk too much about the how and not the why you know is our

DNA and the human genome going to be changed somehow and you can get wrapped up and all that and just totally miss the point of Why Paul even said that so So I could believe that You know

Christians now are in some sort of intermediate state that we will be changed But Old Testament Saints are kind of in the same

Proverbial boat is that they'll be changed at different times and then we will ever be with the

Lord Yeah Yeah, I would I would agree that there is an intermediary state that Because if you believe that the

Day of Judgment is a future event that hasn't happened yet and it's a fixed day

Then obviously those both in heaven Those headed for heaven and those headed for hell can't right now be in the ultimate place where they will spend eternity

Right, and you even see You know, I'm gonna mess up the reference but in Revelation.

I want to say like 19 of the new heavens and the new earth and the false prophet and Antichrist are cast in a lake of fire

That God there's war in heaven You know, and there's there's so little about that realm

With with angels and fallen angels and there's all sorts of theories and stuff about that That You see

There is some sort of access that it seems like demons have to God right now you see that in Job and And so that you know if God is going to Make a new heaven and a new earth that seems to be the reason why is we obviously know that the earth is corrupted by sin, but The heaven seems to be

Like that as well with war in heaven and things like that. So you're right, you know, it does seem to be a an ultimate thing that God's going to purge and then finalize

And we have to go to our final break for the day if you'd like to join us with a question for pastor

Isaac Evans Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris

Arnzen at gmail .com Please give us your first name city and state and country of residence

If you live outside of the USA and we look forward to hearing from you after these messages Don't go away

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God or am

I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi I'm Mark Lukins pastor of Providence Baptist Church We are a reformed

Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts We strive to reflect

Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

Than how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity But since that wasn't the

Apostles priority, it must not be ours either we believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and To be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth

And love if you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area Please come and join us for worship and fellowship

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750 That's 508 -528 -5750

Or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our TV program entitled resting in grace

You can find us at Providence Baptist Church ma .org. That's Providence Baptist Church ma .org

or even on sermon audio .com Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio

Welcome back. This is Chris Orns and we had some technical difficulty there with one of the ads that we were supposed to be playing

So we apologize to our sponsors for not being able to air that for some reason

But if you'd like to join us on the air with a question our email address is Chris Orns in a gmail .com

Chris Orns in at gmail .com and Please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the

USA We have a listener in Suffolk County, Long Island Christopher who says

I have family members in, Massachusetts where it seems that a

Christian has very little legal right to express his Christian faith in many spheres of life and I know that your guest is pastoring a church not far from Massachusetts in Connecticut I know this is off topic, but is he similar is he facing similar challenges in his church?

to those in Massachusetts where it seems that the government is nearly completely leftist

It is you know, Connecticut is is super liberal in the government personally,

I don't put a Lot of stock in Who gets elected or who doesn't get elected?

you know, I think that it's God that Sets up Kings and puts down Kings and I'm not trying to obviate our

Responsibility to vote even though I struggle with that to be honest with you but In my opinion, it's not so much the

The fact that the government is going to limit you what you can and can't say or can and can't do

Where you'll be allowed in the public square as much as what you see out here is the worldview of the people is so Contrary to a biblical worldview.

I feel like even with Christians even people that are saved still struggle with Coming out of that worldview and let me just give you an example and I'm not trying to ruffle feathers, but Recycling whatever your opinion is on recycling whether or not you think it actually does good for the environment or or whatever one thing

I had to get used to in Connecticut was Recycling everybody does it

I would just throw papers in the trash and people literally would get them out of the trash and go recycle

And growing up in Indiana nobody did that I mean people recycles recycle Bottles and cans and stuff, but we don't have a bottle deposit and and all that and so whether it's recycling or gun control or whatever

Little issue I believe that that's part of being all all things to all men that by all means you may save some

I can fall on my sword and be a curmudgeon over Recycling or how strict it is with gun control or how liberal they are you know,

Connecticut just took in a bunch of Syrian refugees and It's just super liberal with their politics and all that so I could

I could fall on my sword and make that My battle of these little things

All that does is minimize the true message of the gospel

The only thing that is going to help these people is is a true heart change

But a lot of that comes from the world view that they have that they just grow up with it's so different Than what

I grew up with and what a lot of people grow up with and so you at with Restrictions on what what you can and can't say and and how

How you can be, you know the government's not I mean if we're just honest here It's not like we live in red

China where the government's knocking on your door You know Our church has a sign and we can we can pass out literature more of more of what

I found in Connecticut and New England and talk to the guys that have been here a Long time is it's not a matter of People are like hostile to the gospel if you if you knock on their door and hand them a piece of literature or That you will get the police called on you.

They're going door -to -door. People would just call because it's annoying I mean, that's the truth is they're not mad that you're passing out the gospel

They're mad that you're knocking on their door and they would do that if you were doing anything if you're trying to sell them anything

It's just a totally different mentality and if you come in here whether it's Massachusetts or Connecticut or really anywhere in New England or the

Northeast and you try to Force a paradigm a methodology onto it you're going to be in a lot of trouble and you're going to be frustrated because It's it's not cookie cutter.

It's unlike anywhere else in the country and You just have to be wise about it

It doesn't mean you don't take a strong position on things But you have to make sure that you have a wife disposition if you're just this annoying country

Southern preacher that's getting up there talking about all the stuff that you're against people just do not

Listen to that and it you know, not that I'm a pragmatist but Even your your

Christian people. They don't respond to that. They just think it's buffoonery So you just have to be wise about how you deal with things and how you talk to people.

It's it's a plodding ministry Pl od di ng it's it's a long you have to be in it for the long haul you know, if you're looking to go start a church and find 40 or 50

Baptists that are just looking to join a church because they're with the other church in town.

There's just nothing like that here So you've got to be wise about how you do things and and The way you interact with people you see that with Paul in the

New Testament and Acts and even Daniel in the Old Testament of just how they you know, they were very convictional and they spoke the truth and At times it potentially could have cost them their life and Paul it did but they weren't annoying about it, you know, you can take a strong stand on something and I'd be annoying and just a buffoon.

So I think that that's more evident here than anywhere else And as you see with Daniel Daniel You know, they changed his name and They wanted to teach him all sorts of stuff in basically the

Babylonian public school But where Daniel drew the line was the lifestyle.

He was not going to adopt the lifestyle He said you can change my name and whatever, you know I know what my name means and you can can have me learn all kinds of stuff

I know enough about the Old Testament law and how God wants me to live but when it comes to Defining myself with the lifestyle not just food and drink but the lifestyle of Babylon I'm not going to do that.

And so I think If Daniel had taken some sort of stand on every single thing

Well, then you're just you're just the curmudgeon that's against everything, you know, you're the Westboro Baptist Church Honestly, you're just mad at everybody about everything and and And I think that you have to be

Cautious with what you take a stand on. It doesn't mean that you Don't take stands and you don't believe in the

Bible But what are you going to actually what battlefield are you going to die on? Are you going to die on a battlefield of eschatology?

I'm not you know, so you have to just decide that and and Be willing to I notice

I know it's on your website. You have a quote from Rosario Dawson. I don't know Rosario Dawson It's like some actress

Rosario Rosario Butterfield right, right and Her book she talks about that a lot where it took her years to come to Christ and and somebody being friendly and not

You know the people that were calling her names and telling her her whole lifestyle Was just an affront to God, you know she didn't listen to but the person that had her over for dinner and and Tried to get to know her and didn't talk about all the little things that that they knew she was doing wrong

That's the person that wanted to Christ and so You know, we we have to expect sinners to act like sinners

That's they have no other nature, you know people are going to be sinners and so we shouldn't just be offended in and You know upset about it.

It is a mission field. So I Obviously rambled on that question, but I know no,

I think you're doing a great job I want I want you to be as clear and You know,

I want you to answer the the questions as clearly as possible. So you're doing a great job I know

Josh Fryman thinks I'm pleonastic and tautological, but I think it's just a matter of Because I guess in a nutshell the lifestyle here and the world view here is so different in every way

Than what I was used to that I had to decide. Okay, I'm just gonna recycle.

I'm not gonna fight that battle I'm not trying to like I said upset anyone that that really loves it

But I just think it's a waste of time and I think it's gonna be a waste of time and you're actually hurting the environment More than you're helping it, but I don't

I'm not gonna preach that from my pulpit You know, I think that you have to be all things to all men that by all means you may win some and so if I heard a message at the

Exposers Summit from molar about that now molar and he preached on that text and he said If the things that we believe that Kind of like how he worded it he says

What is doctrine what is actual doctrine is very clear and it's very concise

And so if our theology is not on the table if our doctrine is not on the table

Then what is and he says everything else and so I think that we get so Wrapped up in these these preferences and these

Little things that that don't matter Molar said in that same sermon

It's going to in our in our generation and our culture in our civilization It's going to take all that we have to fight for actual theology that we cannot theologize our preferences

And I think that people do that And you just can't do that out. You really shouldn't do that Anywhere but in the

Midwest in the South the geographic South You can because people are just so used to that.

They equate the gospel with with issues But here it's just a totally different thing that you can't

You know confront somebody about their Lack of a handgun permit, you know out on Indiana you can get a handgun permit, you know, you basically a cracker jackbox

You do fingerprints you pay like a hundred dollars and you have a lifetime Gun permit, you know, and I might have some of the specifics of that but my point is out here.

It's like Mortgaging a house you have to pay a bunch of money and and it's just a big deal

So I think that you know Christ didn't die for the Second Amendment and so I know that like shocks people but I'm just not

I just don't want to let things like that get in the way of someone's eternal soul You know that I won the argument

So you just have to you know, whether it's Massachusetts or Connecticut I think the Northeast in general you just have to be like that if you are brash and Obtuse about how you deal with people

You're just going to be spinning your wheel Yeah, well basically We the gospel of Jesus Christ is

Offensive enough. We don't have to add our own peculiarities to that offense and unnecessarily offend people

That is that basically where you're coming from? Right and and you know if it's the most offensive thing you say on a

Sunday morning is not the gospel and how people are Have a sin nature and are bound for an eternal hell and the only way that they can

Expedite their sin is through the blood of Christ If that's not the most offensive you say in a church service or to a person then you are doing something wrong

Because like you said that's as offensive enough that that stops people on their tracks right there and nothing else measures up to that Frankly We do have a listener in Kinross Scotland who has a question for you

Murray in Kinross Scotland Says is there a sense in which

Christ was priest before his incarnation or Was he called by God as high priest after his incarnation?

rendering Psalm 110 purely prophetic I Thought this was a fluff piece.

I thought I was just gonna be Well the the

You you are uh, uh, you are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek Yes You know,

I think that it's I don't have in front of me, but you know after the order of Melchizedek, I don't know

You know, I don't know and I'm just off the top of my head and I could be wrong about this, you know I'm not a

Dollar by any means, but I would probably take it as a Purely prophetic ordeal

Because of the future verbs The Lord shall send the rod he shall judge these and and so You know,

I don't know I would I Would probably take it as prophetic. I don't know. I Think that you have to kind of fill in the blanks there to say that Christ was

Some sort of priest before Melchizedek now if you believe that is that the

Mel Melchizedek was a Christophany to Abraham then Obviously you could say that that he was

I don't particularly take that But Yeah, I don't know.

I I guess I guess I would say it's pathetic and that Christ became our our high priest

You know whether or not he had that role Before the incarnation

He doesn't seem to exercise it for the incarnation still have to go to the high priest the actual, you know, whether it was

Aaron or Somebody else, you know They had to go to the high priest to sacrifice or to have atonement and so whether or not he had that role

I don't really know but it doesn't seem like exercise. Well, what do you make of?

Revelations 13 8 about the lamb that was slain from the creation of the world or before the foundation of the world

I mean, I think that's just in the mind of God the lamb that was slain. Mm -hmm. That's a phrase throughout

Scripture That He is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world and and even the foundation of the world you can debate that whether that's the actual creation the creative acts or if that's

God You know somewhere in that day. I think that's that's idiomatic the point of that is that the

Cross of Christ the sacrifice was not like a plan B for God It wasn't like Adam and Eve sinned and God is like, oh no now what?

You know, I guess I'll have Jesus come down The lamb is slain before the foundation of the world really just speaks to the nature of Redemption is that it was in the mind of God and that's where I think we get into trouble by the way not to just Digress, but it's when we presume to know the mind of God And and sometimes when people ask me questions,

I use Deuteronomy 29 29, which is a cop -out for me Which is the secret things belonging to the

Lord our God and the rest of that verse says But those things which are revealed

Belonging to us and to our children that we may or forever that we may do all the words of this law So I think sometimes we get caught up in What the

Bible doesn't say and those secret things belonging to the Lord whether it's the mind of God or or all these

Hypotheticals and we lose track of the things that are revealed, you know what we know to do

And what we know is right. So as far as the priesthood or you know

The the land that was slain for the foundation of the world. I think that really is just talking about Salvation in the mind of God it wasn't some sort of Backup plans is my personal take on that.

I don't know. I know there's different degrees of That Well, obviously obviously the effects of the atonement or the redemption that he provided through that shed blood went to back in time to cover all of his people that he called unto himself and that's why they are

Indeed saved there was no other way that they could be saved if it weren't for the shed blood of the

Lamb, correct Yeah, absolutely, you know and and some of that is You know, and this is where?

Where you know, we talked about this before about whether whether someone performed or Alanist or not. I think where I would

Would deviate a little bit is the timing of it. I think that sometimes we We try to force everything into this very specific timing and We do with with salvation, you know, is it is it faith?

Is it regeneration? Is it? Justification what's the timing of it and we try to make it chronological and I don't think

Bible presents it as chronological I think it's such a Bible looks at it as a as a one thing with many different aspects and so It's kind of what

I mentioned earlier I'd rather have tension in my system and have to make everything make sense. I don't think it's wrong

To admit that you just don't know something. Mm -hmm. I think I think that that's the way

Obviously Christ did not people didn't have atonement for thousands of years before the

Incarnation and then that was Retroactive if you want to use that word for all the

Old Testament Saints I Personally, I believe that they were you know, the story with the rich man and Lazarus I think that was an actual thing that Jesus saying

I don't think it was a parable and so you do have some sort of Abraham's bosom there, you know, whether or not you think that's heaven or or whatever

I Think that People went there in like some sort of holding zone

Prove that in a lot of ways from Scripture, but I think that that's what that shows us again. That's not the point of that passage

But you do pick up little things like that, so I think I think we have to be careful what we presume upon God and presume on the mind of God and that what

God has done in Eternity past so -called which is, you know an oxymoron in of itself eternity past but Before the foundation of the world,

I believe is just idiomatic to prove that that God has Had that plan

Before we existed Well, even the Calvinists disagree over Timing that's why you have in for lapser

Ian's and super lapser, but if you could Basically summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before They leave the program today in just about three minutes time because we're running out of time today

Sure You know, I think it you know if you go back to the

The original topic with seeing Christ in the Old Testament we see that we need to see

Christ not only Old Testament, but now and The Bible talks about how in him we have our life and we have our being

We exist for Christ and we were created to please him.

And so I think that Whatever a person does they need to make sure that Not that Christ is some add -on to their life.

You know, they work a job or they live life and they have priorities and things like that and ambition but that Christ is

Ambition that Christ is all that he is the preeminence in their life.

And I think that if we orient ourselves around the gospel rather than Just kind of have it be something that we tag along to our life that's really

God's purpose for us is To be single -minded in that so whether it's you know, our context might be different but our in our

Mission is the same and that is to fulfill the Great Commission here on earth.

Please God To obey the scriptures You know the greatest commandment love the

Lord thy God and love your neighbor as yourself And I know there are things that obviously we can't do and that's why we need

Christ to Work through us and in us through his spirit and all

I'll end with a quote from a famous Calvinist Lewis Berger says

When sin is tolerated in the life of believer the Holy Spirit changes from a ministry through them to a ministry to them and And so I think that we just have to be constantly

Having a healthy dissatisfaction with where we are in the Lord I'm not in the oppressive self -centered prideful way, but in a way that we are always speaking

To be conformed in the image of Christ until we are made like Christ Well, I want to thank you so much for being our guest for the very first time

Pastor Evans, especially since it was such late notice And I want our listeners to know that the website for Glastonbury Baptist Church is

Glastonbury Baptist org That's GLAS as in Sam T as in Thomas O -n as in Nancy B as in boy you are why?

Baptist org that's Glastonbury Baptist org and don't forget about the upcoming conference

That pastor Evans is speaking at along with pastor Josh Fryman of Community Baptist Church in Riverhead, Long Island, New York Reverend John peoples of Grace Presbyterian Church in Indianapolis, Indiana and dr

Russell Fuller Who is professor of Hebrew and Old Testament at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky?

This is going to be held at the Pittsburgh Baptist Church in Pittsburgh, Indiana next

Friday and Saturday September 9th and 10th and for more details go to Pittsburgh Baptist comm

PIT TS Boro Baptist comm and I hope that if you go there that you mentioned iron sharpens iron radio

I want to thank again pastor Isaacs for being on the program. I want to thank Tim Challies our first guest for being on I want to thank all of you who took the time to write.

I hope you all have a safe joyful and God -honoring weekend and Lord's Day Especially since it's a an elongated weekend

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater