46 - Mass / Transubstantiation / Scholasticism

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Comments are disabled.

00:00

All right You all are just sitting there and wild anticipation. I can tell

00:09

What what might we be studying today? Well Yes, we're gonna press on what if of course what else would we do and I believe

00:22

That we have come Let me verify this we've come to factors in the rise of the

00:27

Reformation am I correct about that is that correct? No, no, which is the pre -pre -reformation no when

00:37

I even there sorry Goodness gracious. See I use these same notes at other times and I lose

00:47

We haven't Oh goodness We did the Crusades last yes, so we're on doctrinal development, right?

00:58

Yes Transubstantiation and sacrifice of the mass.

01:06

Yep. Yep doctrinal development. Okay. Yeah, we still got a ways to go. Sorry I use these notes more than once so I Yes Well, yeah

01:53

Obviously the Reformers would have Seen those actions.

01:59

Well, it really comes back to sacralism State church the concept of Christendom We even sing a hymn once in a while That struck me after I did

02:16

My talk on the two Luthers Luther Martin Oh way too many of them 165 166 sounds familiar

02:30

Once in a while we will sing No, that's not it 165 166 207 there's a there's a hymn by Luther that Specifically Oh There's only so many of them 461 it'll be why bets last time

02:56

I look at It's not 461. So I went for the later ones and of course

03:03

We know what 81 is so it must be 91 It's a short one.

03:09

Yeah. Yeah 91 Yeah, the second one

03:15

Lord Jesus Christ I power make known for thou art Lord of lords alone Defend thy

03:20

Christendom that we may evermore sing praise to thee and you know,

03:26

I I know what that meant to to Luther and And Yet as You know

03:38

Baptists don't have a a sacralist history The last

03:44

I mean the group that has the longest and the latest martyrology in Europe are Baptists and Mainly at the hands not of Rome but of Protestants of state church

03:57

Protestants all the way into the early 1800s And so we are in in a in a sort of a no -man's land where we recognize that Placing theology and The nature of the gospel and things like that in the hands of The magistrate is

04:26

Has had really really bad results in the past At the same time, you know as you say, you know, it's

04:33

Europe would have been very different place had it been conquered by the Muslims. Well, that's obviously true as well

04:40

But were the Crusades actually relevant to that Some would argue that given that one of the

04:47

Crusades hung a left and sat Constantinople it actually assisted in the eventual fall of Constantinople and hence the pressure that was felt

04:56

Against Vienna and places like that at a later point in time, you know, it's sort of like what if Lee had had his cavalry at Gettysburg, you know, what would happen if there had been a

05:09

United States and a Confederate United States when World War one started, you know, there's there's all sorts of ways of Speculating what might have happened or everything else and there's there's really no way for us to know those things just theologically

05:25

The motivation the the granting of indulgences the the fact that to this day the cross is a

05:37

Sign of idolatry or military conquest in the Muslim world has to be overcome.

05:44

I Can't I can't see the positive aspect God God chose to do it that way and it had an impact upon Europe in the sense of you know

05:53

Rise the middle class and the economics and you know, all those things, you know about but You know just looking at it from a biblical perspective

06:03

You know calling for people to write off and leave their families to To make it possible to pilgrimage to Jerusalem.

06:11

I can't see how that's you know a positive thing and so It the interesting thing is to my knowledge

06:21

The Muslims viewed it purely as politics and military Until just the past couple of decades then it's become useful to you know, religious persecution blah blah blah in the

06:33

West But up till then it was like hey you fought us. We fought you. Yeah, you know no big deal, that's just sort of how things supposed to be and so they didn't really view them the view it the way that's

06:45

That is being viewed today. So At least that's my understanding of it. So yeah, it's something definitely something to think through I am a little

06:53

I do get a little creeped out when when there are certain Christian writers or at least sort of Christian writers who sort of go rah rah crusades, you know, and I'm like Oh, okay

07:08

You know All right. Well anyway So something to think about definitely it's a mixed bag.

07:15

All right doctrinal development very important here a purgatory and the

07:21

Treasury of Merit we had We'd already talked about this didn't we? Yes, and so we talked about the value of relics

07:29

And so the next one was the sacrifice of the mass, I believe How did the

07:35

Catholic Church claim that they actually kept track of the Treasury of Merit That's the power of the keys.

07:42

It's a supernatural thing. It's not like there's a book someplace with Basically they claimed that as long as they said there was merit there to dispense there it was

07:52

Yeah, there's no account there's no accounting system there's no accounting system I mean you would think there almost could be but there there isn't so All right, the sacrifice the mass now if you if you think back to the early church period we talked about the missa

08:08

Which was the dismissal you can even hear in our English term derived from Latin going back to that time period

08:15

The dismissal of those who are not baptized from the worship service in the early church So when you dismissed them it was time for the mass

08:26

That dismissal and then the Lord's Supper afterwards developed into what eventually becomes known as as the mass and During the

08:36

Middle Ages the mass took over the role of preaching and in in the church as literacy declined as knowledge of Scripture declined the central act of worship became the supper and all the symbolism that was connected to the supper in essence and I'm not at all exaggerating to state that Even to this day in modern

09:12

Roman Catholic teaching the Roman Catholic authors themselves will tell you that the central act of worship within Roman Catholicism is the mass and So it's you know, they will say oh, well, there's scripture readings as part of the mass.

09:34

Well minimally the idea of the exegesis explication of the text of Scripture as central act of worship.

09:43

That's really one of the main differences between reformed Protestants and Roman Catholics, I'm not sure.

09:50

It's really the case any longer with many other Protestants, but And that is in in one you have

09:57

The ceremony and other you have the communication of communication and application of divine truths there's a real difference between the two and So anyway with that decline literacy in the

10:13

Middle Ages the mass took over for preaching There were many miracles associated with the host primarily after the turn of the

10:29

Millennium And we'll explain why that is and in just a moment, but some of the there's there's a couple

10:37

Key, there are two two names that you need to know if you want to understand something about the development of The theology during the

10:51

Middle Ages and middle middle period of time paschalius radbertus pass

11:01

Gazeous Radbertus and in my mind.

11:08

There's always the connection between radbertus and another fellow by the name of Rattramnus and I don't have

11:17

Rattramnus his first name or if he had Trampas my bird is a rattramnus.

11:27

It's just stuck with stuck with me and my thinking anyways Radbertus in either 818 or 831 we're not exactly sure which

11:41

Developed the idea of the body Being in the host that is a change in substance of the host

11:49

In his work de corpore et sanguine Damini Till this time the real presence of Christ had indeed been believed, but the specifics of how this

12:01

Occurred was not really discussed and in the early church It's it's clear that when you had

12:12

The host if you're if if you're familiar with with the mass many of you if you're raised the

12:18

Baptist it's just a mystery to you, but you have the the priest

12:24

Lifts up this wafer the host and in the old Latin would say hocus corpus mayhem.

12:30

This is my body And then Vatican to allowed vernacular language masses, and there are still

12:35

Roman Catholics that are upset about that and there is this mysterious miraculous change in the substance

12:44

Not the accident substance. It's a Aristotelian distinction between something it Something is substance is what makes it what it is its accidents is what makes it appear to be what it is and there are two different things

12:57

So the substance has changed in the body soul blood and divinity of Jesus the accidents remain the same

13:02

So it still looks like tastes like feels like a piece of bread a cracker But it's not anymore its substance has been changed which changes.

13:12

What's actually going on and Aristotle is starting to be studied again

13:20

Toward the end of the first millennium and so these Category issues start coming into into play now you can tell that the early church didn't have any of this because though they had the mass and the

13:35

Consecration of hosts and things like that they would take them to sick people who for example couldn't come to church

13:43

Now what happens with those hosts today in Roman Catholicism They are treated like the body and blood of God and so that's why when you go into a church

13:53

You genuflect if you look very carefully there always be this tabernacle or monstrance sometimes in the center sometimes over in the corner where there are consecrated hosts that are reserved there and That's the physical presence of God in the church, and that's what you're bowing toward Worshiping you're allowed to worship that because that's literally

14:17

God and In Roman Catholic countries there will be processions you almost never sit here, but you see down,

14:23

Mexico Where the pro the priest will put one of these consecrated hosts into into this container or pick

14:30

Seborrheum whatever different words for it, and they will parade it through the streets and everyone will bow down and because God's coming by and The fact is in the early church

14:43

Once those hosts were distributed to the sick they did not They didn't do anything with if anything was left well eat them give them to somebody else there's no big deal because they didn't have this idea of some type of wholesale change of the substance and this

15:01

All that literal physicality that would come in later centuries They certainly believed it was important and that Christ was present with his people in a spiritual sense, but this physical stuff took took a while to to develop and so Rad Burtis didn't use the term but eventually the the term transubstantiation began to be

15:33

Utilized and Rad Burtis was a monk at a place called Corby C -o -r -b -i -e

15:41

Rattramnus Who died in 868? Contradicted Rad Burtis and a work titled de corpore et sanguine domini liber

15:51

Though he was also at Corby and was under Rad Burtis's authority so Rad Burtis was Rattramnus's senior in amongst the monks, but he contradicted

16:06

Rad Burtis's view he argued the supper is a memorial a symbol and that no change took place

16:13

So we could call him read Rattramnus the Baptist if we wanted to Though he would probably not appreciate that Rad Burtis's position was finally codified at the fourth ladder and council in 1215 and So that I think that's a date

16:33

I've mentioned to you before 1215 the fourth Lateran Council and when when the inevitable question is asked of me as it always is well, when did

16:50

Roman Catholicism start and You know people try to say well, it was with Constantine or well.

16:56

It took place here as Gregory the Great I Think one of the most convenient

17:05

Dates that I can offer someone To where you could sort of identify?

17:11

I mean you've got the huge increase in the authority of the papacy and everything else

17:16

For flattering council sounds good you need you need to have the mass you need to have transubstantiation

17:22

I think they have Roman Catholicism even though purgatory is not going to take its final form until 14 14 14 or so so it's still a matter of development and and I've already warned us many times of all those books that have the list of dates and this started here in this that all this

17:43

I mean 1215 that's almost 400 years after Brad Burtis before you have a a

17:49

Dogmatic definition of these particular these particular things so radburnis and radtramnus sort of cast a light on This point of development and even in the mid 9th century

18:07

There is still Disagreement there's you know when you when you hear Roman Catholics and others

18:14

Oh universal faith the church universal faiths of church. I just want to go What books are you reading son?

18:22

There there are very few things you can identify as being absolutely universal I think monotheism is about as close as you can come on on some of those things so anyway

18:34

Also, you might ask the question well whatever happened with that old old guy named

18:40

Augustine and His doctrine of predestination because we know We know that that doctrine is not exactly something that the the lost man really likes or is going to be grabbing hold of in and and promoting and So this time period actually gives us a little snapshot about that as well because after the days of Augustine About hundred years after his death you have the

19:16

Council of Orange and At the Council of Orange you you you get

19:23

You know yes, Augustine was right about many of these things, but you get some compromises

19:29

That lead to the utilization of the term semi Pelagian ism by later historians looking back

19:39

Once Augustine was gone his high strong view of the sovereignty of God and the decree of God That just doesn't fit with a lot of people people don't that goes against man's natural tendencies toward wanting to be able to push himself into the center of things and be in control of things and and so you you get at the

20:03

Council of Orange an Affirmation of the general truths of what? Augustine said but you get enough compromise to allow man to sort of sneak back in there

20:13

And so you get what we would call semi Pelagian ism which as a broad term is is what you have in the vast majority of Evangelicalism today as well

20:24

And that is a synergistic System that Will give varying levels of lip service to the concept of God's sovereignty decrees election so on so forth, but It's its deepest desire is to make sure

20:45

That whoever is in final control. It's man God can do 99 .9

20:52

% of it, but you've got to give that 1 % control to man so that everything works out

21:00

One of the interesting Names, and I think this would be a great name for a kid a dog

21:09

Maybe not a kid and a dog at the same time, but I just think it's one of the best I think it's one of the best church history names, so keep this in mind church history names right here gives us

21:21

Then that rock gots chalk gots chalk oops, it's got there's two

21:30

T's there gots chalk I that that name just I don't just That would make a good that make a good soccer team.

21:40

I mean just it's just it's just it just rocks. It really does Gots chalk 804 to 869 869

21:57

Gots chalk was a big fan of Augustin who else and he felt the church should follow more closely the teachings of Augustin over against Council of orange and semi

22:08

Pelagian ism that had become popular in the time period after him he found great solace and delight in the concept of God's absolute sovereignty and the doctrine of predestination

22:23

He saw that Augustin had taught double predestination strong view

22:30

Even though that doesn't require you to believe in what's called equal ultimacy. We've talked about that before but the idea that that's when you talk about double predestination most people assume what you mean is

22:42

God predestines some to heaven and predestined some to hell and it's just it's the identical thing the extension of divine power to save a rebel sinner and bring them to heaven is very different than The natural application of God's justice which brings a person

23:02

Into condemnation, it's divine power that saves it does not require divine power in the same context or even on the same level

23:11

To bring condemnation. So but there are some people that just want to well many people who just want to say that's

23:17

Just flip side of the same thing. That's way too simplistic a perspective anyway

23:24

So He saw it Augusta taught double predestination well It wasn't popular back then.

23:31

I and so he was he was condemned for his views Now you might say.

23:37

Oh what he he he didn't get enough likes on Facebook He started getting negative comments on Facebook, you know stuff like that.

23:44

No, he was condemned and then he was scourged and Then he was condemned to lifelong imprisonment

23:53

So so a little bit of a different context then then we have today

23:59

I Have folks on Facebook that would like to see me scourged and and given lifelong imprisonment as well

24:08

But thankfully they're not they're not in charge yet. And so we're we're good and so what's interesting is

24:18

Guests who came to Gottschalk's aid at least in the sense of In a written form defending his

24:30

Perspectives Retramnus very good Retramnus came to Gottschalk's aid

24:37

Sort of looking at whether you're surfing the web there and then oh, come on here.

24:43

I thought here I thought you had gone. Hey, I bet you Nah You know

24:51

Uh -huh. Uh -huh. So so while I'm sitting here talking you're actually reading Wikipedia about Gottschalk Okay, well

25:06

I Think we're gonna have to I think we have to put a

25:11

Wi -Fi blocker in here or something like that. So that's There you there then that is that why

25:20

You don't you don't want you don't want your students actually correcting you Hey doctor, that's not what

25:26

I said Wikipedia, you know Well, that's what you get for using

25:32

Wikipedia you fail get out of here. Anyway So retramnus came to Gottschalk's aid writing a work called you want to you want to go with the

25:41

Latin on this one? I Can't read it.

25:47

I got it here day pray Destination day II the predestination of God though in reality he wasn't as dedicated double destination as Gottschalk was so he wasn't quite as fervent as Gottschalk, but He he did come to his his aid though.

26:03

I do not does does the article say whether Gottschalk received any? Amelioration for of his sentence or did does it just simply

26:13

Yeah, yeah, I don't have anything about that either so I don't I don't think he got out So just you know as as you may have opportunity of having discussion with people online about your beliefs

26:28

Be thankful that you live in the early 21st century Where you can have that discussion without life imprisonment

26:39

And scourging as as a result Because that's what happened back then though.

26:45

We may be heading back that direction. I just don't think it would be Fellow Christians that would be doing that though.

26:51

I like I said I just this morning I was I was encountering one that would I'm sure love to do that have all that done to me anyway

27:00

So there you have Gottschalk, so I'm fully expecting At some point in the not -too -distant future to hear that someone who gets a new kitty or doggy or something

27:10

Named name that cat or dog minimally Gottschalk, maybe a retram this

27:15

I think retram this would be really cool as well And who knows maybe some kids someday will get at least a middle name of Gottschalk, I actually ran into somebody once that did have like a million of Gottschalk I said so which parent is the church history person and Yeah, we can go from there all right now during this time of course you have the development of What is eventually going to be known as?

27:42

scholasticism obviously You know what scholasticism is the scola the church on a school though coming into English as school

27:52

The school men as you would hear the Reformers refer to them We're a group of men between the 12th and 14th centuries who wish to make

28:02

Christian theology defensible according to the rules of logic and So they wish to organize and systematize so as to destroy all contradictions make everything you know write that systematic theology, and we can get to write the last one and nobody'll ever have to do this again because we'll have figured it all out and It'll all be logically defensible, and we're done

28:27

The goal of the schoolman was to validate truth by reason and So Christianity needed to be something that was entirely reasonable in the sense of Reason pointing to all of its various elements

28:44

Now the method of the schoolman was that they predominantly utilized Aristotelian philosophy

28:50

Which had come back into Europe at this time primarily through a

28:56

Muslim by the name of Averroes an Islamic scholar He Had been rediscovered around the 10th century his influence upon learned men was tremendous

29:08

Greek scholars displaced by attacks from the Muslims fled to Italy and as I said

29:14

Averroes a ve RrOes translated Aristotle and struggled with the relationship between Aristotle and Islam Aristotle resilient this is a

29:26

This is a difficult time period within Islam as well It's interesting that Islamic culture reached a high point and Then what's what's really interesting is its decline and fall a lot of it was due to the rise of The same forms of Islam that give birth to groups like Isis today

29:53

That's why when people say oh You you you can't be nice to Muslims because they might just take over the whole world.

29:59

I'm sorry Have you looked at the Islamic world? As soon as they get to a certain percentage

30:07

Of the population even if even if they are you know in what happens in places where they are 90 % of the population

30:17

Well, they they murder Christians. Yeah, that does happen, but who gets murdered a whole lot of the time more in Muslim countries than Christians Muslims they turn on themselves

30:26

There are deep divisions. You know I I had two Muslims I was listening to a hour and a half video two

30:32

Muslims put out about me a couple days ago on on a ride I was doing and One of the things they they said one of the criticisms

30:42

They had was I had I once quoted a Shiite source as if it was relevant to true Islam Well that tells you where they are you know they're they're

30:50

Sunni and so you can't can't quote the Shiites unless you're talking to a Shiite and then you can't quote the

30:56

Sunnis and and Then you've got the Akhmadi, and then you got the Druze, and you know you so on and so forth and so Hopefully we all realize the vast majority of Islamic violence the world today is aimed at Muslims and It's a it's a tragic thing so That form of Islam a very fundamentalistic form

31:20

Assault what's called the Salafi form of Islam which today would be called wahhabism Was really a major part in the

31:30

Destruction of what had become a rather high Civilization with a lot you know

31:35

Averroes doing Aristotelian philosophy there was philosophy. There's mathematics There's a lot of it, and if you do anything in astronomy today

31:45

Last night I grabbed my Astronomical binoculars you've you know

31:50

I've got I've got a scope got a new scope coming. I can't wait but I setting up a scope that that has

31:58

Electronics and stuff like that in it take some time. You've got to get it out there. You've got to you know

32:05

Get attached to two different stars so it knows where it is and then you know all the rest of time take some time Didn't have a lot of time so I've got this

32:11

Set of astronomical binoculars, which you can just plop down go And I looked at two binary star systems one that I showed some

32:26

Brothers this down here alberio, and I know right where our burial is now, so it's pretty easy to find

32:32

I wasn't sure with the light cloud cover last night, but I was able to get to it I said I wonder if I can find out mock

32:40

And Al mock is a much tighter binary system. It's actually not two stars. It's four.

32:46

It's really fascinating the yellow one You've got a blue one, but the blue ones actually be being circled by a double so you got one two three four you have four

32:53

You can only see two But they're really tight close together. I wasn't sure if I could

32:58

I had never seen it through my binoculars I was I was able to distinguish it was like yay, but notice alberio and I'll mock what language that Arabic In astronomy, it's either

33:10

Greek Arabic or Latin or in the case of alberio. It's Arabic badly translated through Greek into Latin or something like that and it ends up making no sense at all

33:22

Because somebody didn't understand it, but it's what's gotten attached to the name and once it's there you sort of stuck so Do I do

33:35

I do I you showed her I'm on a little diagram of the orbits. Oh there you go Thank you very not, but but your phone isn't big enough to show everybody else.

33:44

That's the problem. So yeah, thank you. Very good Having some problems once again with the young man down front anyways

33:58

So We got we got to find someone to take care of this guy that's just all there is to it so I don't know so Astronomy Mathematics, you know, there had been a very high civilization

34:16

But it didn't it didn't survive and it crumbled from within primarily from this form of Islam that is extremely

34:27

Self -destructive so anyway, so Aristotle comes in and Through the use of Aristotelian philosophy deductive logic

34:42

They would take a verse of Scripture call it a proposition and then would deduce truths from that Aristotelian syllogism which

34:56

Can have in some Minimal Context can have some value to it, but that's not

35:06

What John intended his gosh don't John did not intend each verse of his gospel to be taken separated out and turned into some type of a basis for some syllogistic

35:20

Assertion Neo did Matthew needed mark near the Paul you do that to the

35:25

Psalter for example with poetry and You can come up with almost anything you want and so the the schoolmen

35:36

Very influential But a lot of the Reformers theology and philosophy was actually a reaction against the schoolmen because they were dry and dusty dry and Dusty would be a nice a very kind way of putting most of what the schoolmen wrote.

35:56

It's not that they weren't Smart brilliant to start at the wrong point And then you had the discussion in the nature of existence there were two main schools of thought amongst the schoolmen realism and nominalism

36:09

Realism and nominalism realism was based upon platonic philosophy and the concept of eternal forms

36:16

All around us is reflection of the mind of God nominalism said that there are no universals or forms or general categories reality is found in the particulars and so so Realism you have these forms you have the ideal table

36:33

That exists somewhere and everything else is just simply a shadow of the ideal table the nominalist nomina name concrete things and so Reality is found in particulars.

36:48

They must be verifiable So categories of the ideal table that don't does it doesn't work

36:57

Categories just names realists tried to prove God existed Nominalists said you couldn't do it

37:05

So if you sort of believe in just general categories of things and this is just a reflection of that well Then we should be able to prove

37:11

God's existence to the reflection of God, but the nominalist said no it's in specific It's only it's only basically there was sort of a

37:20

Beginning of the materialist that says you know if you can't weigh it Analyze it whatever else doesn't really exist

37:28

Rationalism of I'm sorry realism led into mysticism contemplation almost equal to experience and when we get down to the next guy

37:38

Anselm of Canterbury he was a realist and you can see how that impacts his theology so let's look at some key personalities here real quick we're actually making some decent progress here and I wrote too big here, so we'll

37:53

We'll take some of this off here real quick some of those great great names

38:00

And let's talk real quickly about Anselm of Canterbury Anselm of Canterbury 1033 to 1109

38:17

He became Archbishop of Canterbury in 1093 He had a tremendous influence on medieval thought in the area of the knowledge of God and of the atonement

38:27

So doctrine of God theology proper arguments the existence of God and the doctrine of the atonement

38:36

Now it's very important that you understand His motto was

38:48

Credo ut Intelligam Credo ut

38:56

Intelligam I Believe so that I may know

39:01

I Believe so that I may know so in other words

39:12

Belief Acknowledgement of God and God's categories

39:21

Foundational to human knowledge human knowledge must be derivative from God's revelation and God's being

39:30

And so for him faith Is the all -conditioning thing it comes before?

39:39

Knowledge now that's going to be Contrasted with The next guy we're going to look at which

39:48

I'm not sure we're good today, but and that is Abelard Who was the canon of the

39:54

Cathedral of Notre Dame? and His Credo was intelligo ut credum

40:05

I know that I may believe and So his perspective was much more man -centered

40:19

Than that Anselm's is that's going to have a huge difference, you know impact upon So something you wish to Abelard Abelard yeah,

40:31

I'll get to him next Abelard Abelard you just want to go ahead and buzz ahead go ahead fine.

40:39

Why don't we just sit here and wait for you? Yeah, mm -hmm. Yeah lunch, please. Please tell us tell us about Abelard now

40:46

Okay And besides there's clearly more that you could tell us from from the net than I have in my notes so anyways

40:57

Where were we? Oh, yes, we're Moses was in the bold rushes, so I believe that I may know his now

41:06

I'm almost tempted But I'm I just think it'd be too early in the morning and it probably ruined everybody's day

41:15

Even if we did this next week I'm almost tempted does anybody know aside from looking at your phone?

41:26

What Argument for the existence of God Anselm is famous for Anselm is the one that gave us what's called the

41:46

Ontological argument now you've probably heard the cosmological argument

41:57

There are various you know Thomas Aquinas put together a whole list of the various and you know these these are the classic schoolman arguments for the existence of God theistic proofs

42:11

I Remember taking a philosophy class at those brother

42:18

Callahan's philosophy class at Phoenix College and I still have the textbook.

42:24

I never I never well I guess some I did, but I almost never sold my textbooks back. I how do you get a big library if you sell your?

42:31

textbooks back and So I still have my philosophy textbook fact.

42:37

I've even purchased it since then in Kindle format. Oh my goodness are those expensive But I remember

42:45

Eating at the the old Arby's. It's gone at 15th Avenue in Camelback After a class at Phoenix College with that textbook sitting there reading the presentation of the ontological argument and just Trying my darndest to figure out

43:12

Exactly what this argument is is all about and And Honestly the the

43:20

I think the only way to ever make it through the ontological argument is Is is at least to Advil before you start?

43:30

and Some schnapps might help to be honest with you it might open your mind up a little bit.

43:37

I guess I it is Exceptionally difficult, and it's one of those arguments that You sort of feel like you're climbing this mountain, and you finally get to the top and you pull yourself up and I got it, and then you walk out of the restaurant.

44:00

You sit down the car go. Oh, I lost it Because that's about how long it lasts you know And you you just know

44:07

You could never ever ever ever ever express this to anybody else even for those few seconds where it's like I?

44:13

Think that might I think that might work, and then it just It's like trying to hold on to fog.

44:20

You know it. Just you got it for a second, and it's gone It is extremely difficult

44:27

I'll think about it because I actually I just realized that since I have that very book on Kindle and I have kindle on this unit

44:35

I could We I could subject you to the horrific experience of Trying to figure out the ontological argument, and you know the only reason

44:45

I would do it is so that you could tell people If it ever came up Ever heard of Anselm's ontological argument.

44:54

Oh, yeah And then move on Because you wouldn't know you just but it does give you a almost

45:06

It's probably the classical example of the schoolman and scholastic thought so I'm gonna give it some thought.

45:14

I mean I've I I'm supposed to be here, and I'm supposed to be here next week, but it's going to be a really busy week

45:20

I'm gonna be gone most of it, and so I don't know but I'll think about it. I'll think about it because Yeah the

45:29

The ontological argument is just wow But now that I've said all that you're probably go all right go ahead see what see how hardy

45:36

We really are we can take it go ahead and try to drive us crazy. Yeah No, but depends on which

45:47

Proposed universe we're talking about Yeah, so anyways pretty wild stuff anyways.

45:53

We'll come back to Anselm Next time we've run out of time. Let's pray together Father we do thank you for this day the opportunity of looking back once again

46:03

Because we ask that that would give us light to look forward be with us now as we go into worship We pray in Christ's name