God and Mental Health

Mr. Smalley, do you believe that abortion is moral? Oh boy. I'm glad I'm debating him instead of you.

This is Apologetics Live. To answer your questions, your host from Striving for Eternity Ministries, Andrew Rippaport.

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go down to the icon, the duck icon for the StreamYard, join us, ask us your most difficult question.

Just remember one thing. I don't know is a perfectly good answer.

I am your host. I'm Andrew Rippaport, the Executive Director of Striving for Eternity and the Christian Podcast Community, of which this podcast is a proud member.

So we're here to do Apologetics, train you in Apologetics. I'm going to bring in my co -host, another

Andrew, Drew. What's going on? We got two Drews, one with hair, one without.

That's right. So you guys figure out which one's the older. One good -looking, one not. One what? I said one good -looking and one not.

The one with hair is good -looking, got it. All right. I didn't say that. We will let the audience decide.

So we're going to talk about God and mental health. And we've been getting some, this cracked me up.

Fatima says, Hi, everyone. I've been waiting since last night. Ha ha ha. That, for the folks who don't know, who are looking in the chat,

I'm going to let you in on a little secret. This person is from the Philippines. So yes, it was last night because when we posted it, you know, it was night, you know, it is 8 a .m.

there in Manila. So, so yeah. And others have been saying, Melissa is saying that she's been waiting at least that long.

So we're glad we'll get to some of those things.

And so let's see. Where is it?

Jolene says, Ha ha, I've scheduled it on my calendar since the Strange Fire conference. Well, that was several weeks ago now.

Well, actually depends if she's speaking of the Manila conference or a hall there in the

Philippines, because they were one week apart. So and so with this,

I want to before we get into, we're going to do an in the news section, things like that. But before we do,

I just want to say I do recognize that for some people, this topic and is going to be very emotional.

There's a lot of people that I've noticed over the last few weeks, ever since MacArthur's comment, that this is a very, very emotional topic for many.

And so because of that, I just want to give kind of a warning and say, like, all right, we're going to try to address this from Scripture, what

Scripture says. And I just want to be cautious because I just know that for many, this becomes something that they can react to what they think we're saying rather than what we're actually saying.

And so I want to ask you as a listener to be careful in this episode to hear what we're actually saying.

And don't assume what we're saying. Don't think that you know what we're saying and jump right to a conclusion.

I want you to hear us out. And you may disagree with us.

I don't mind that. Disagreeing with us is fine. But attributing to us something we don't believe is not.

I unfortunately had to block someone on Facebook because the person, ever since the comments about MacArthur, has been trying to convince me how wrong

I am on this issue by addressing something that is not my position nor MacArthur's.

Okay. I said this back then, but MacArthur did not say that the experience of PSTD or ADD or these others do not exist.

He explained it, the experience, but he didn't agree with the label and the treatment.

And so he was addressing it saying that the Bible has an answer on how to deal with these experiences.

And so the person just kept trying to convince me that MacArthur says that there is no such thing, that no one has that experience.

And he kept arguing that, well, that's like telling Justin Peters he doesn't have cerebral palsy. Two completely different things, right?

Cerebral palsy is a physical thing. It's not an emotional thing. And so it's also something that you're not going to address the same way.

You're not addressing the cerebral palsy by saying, here's some drugs. We're just going to give you a label. And that way you don't have to try to work on it, right?

So it's very different. So I ended up saying to this person, I tried being as polite as I could, but I'm like, look,

I'm ignoring you. Stop posting. I'm not reading any of it. I'm not, you know, because it's just you keep blowing up my inbox and you're not listening to me.

And so he wouldn't stop. And I pleaded with him, I said, look, I'm going to have to block you just so that I stop seeing this blown up because you're not getting the message.

You're not engaging with what I said, and you won't stop. And so I told him another time,

I'm like, look, on your next comment, if it's, I love you, but on your next comment on this subject,

I'm blocking you. And within seconds, you know, boom.

And so I didn't want to have to, but I did. And so I don't want to do that with anyone.

I want to, I recognize this could be emotional. And so we need to be a thinking people, not a feeling people as Christians.

And this is half the problem with our culture. They don't think anymore. They feel. Which actually gets us to some of the in the news segment.

Because there were some funny things. I wish I had gotten the video of some of the things.

I think last week we talked about the person who was, but it was unfair that they were hungry on a hunger strike.

So, you know, yeah, I mean, you know, the liberals, it's hard to, you know, if you're trying to do parody, it's hard to do parody with these liberals, like, you know, because they just do things like I'm going to stick my hand in a bucket of concrete as protest.

Okay. Well, I love this one. There was some actress or something that I saw and she's being interviewed, you know, and someone's talking to her.

And ever since the, it was announced that Roe versus Wade was going to be overturned.

She has been in protesting. And I mean, they were just like, she's on this and saying, she's been doing this protest for over two years, like two and a half years.

And she's been protesting the overturning of Roe versus Wade. She is going to stick it to those conservatives.

And the person's like, you go girl. What is she doing to protest the fact that, you know, abortion is not federally legal anymore.

She's been celibate. Oh, oh my, you're really going to stick it to the conservatives.

I say go girl too. Good job. I encourage this.

This is, Hey, let's do a campaign right now. All the people who are in favor of abortion, go celibacy to show us how strong your protest is.

Be celibate. In fact, I'll be, we'll do it even worse. How about you be celibate with anybody other than your spouse?

I would love to see that sort of thing. So I encourage this. I think that we should all encourage the protest for those who want to protest the overturning of Roe versus Wade by going celibate.

In fact, I think what they should do is since they haven't been allowing different crisis pregnancy centers, like the one

I used to work for to go into the public schools to teach about the dangers of STDs, that's actually how we would teach the abstinence was to talk about STDs.

You couldn't just go in and teach abstinence, but you could go in and teach STDs and explain that.

Well, the one way to prevent STDs is abstinence, save it till marriage. So now that it's a protest,

I think that like all of, you know, we should get a lot of Christians going into the public schools, you know, get the crisis for any says going to the public school saying we would like to teach about celibacy as a protest against the overturning of Roe versus Wade.

That's a genius. I think it would be great. Like we should encourage the liberals to continue to teach our values to show us that they're going to stick it to us.

Yep. Yep. You know, I just, I, I gotta say, uh, because Melissa puts a comment up here.

She says, I wish all liberals would stay celibate, you know, and here's the thing, right?

Here's the thing. Which group is it that's killing off their children in droves, right?

It's the liberals. And now who are the ones that are protesting in the form of celibacy to not have intercourse so they could not get pregnant?

It's the liberals. I say this is a clear testimony to post -millennialism and the

Christians taking over the world. Okay. Clearly. Yeah.

And you don't quite see the numbers of Muslim births and post -millennial births just saying, so I, I do like the idea of having a campaign of celibacy to protest the overturn of Roe versus Wade.

I think that, uh, we should do that. Uh, I actually had an idea for Trump. You know, it would be interesting.

You've been following this stuff with the Trump, um, debates with Biden and, you know,

Biden, Biden, the tough guy, Biden, you know, Hey, you, you lost two debates to me already.

He hasn't debated anyone since then. I hear you're free on Wednesday. Bring it on. Um, now, first off folks, it, if you'd go and look, it was only like a, like three minutes, maybe of a clip there and they had like 10 cuts.

So he couldn't even do like, you know, five seconds without them going, okay, cut. We got to do this again.

Right. But first off, so he's saying he won two debates.

I guess he's admitting that he lost one of the three debates against Trump. Cause he said he only won two of them.

Oops. And so the other thing that I thought interesting was it is he's like, he hasn't debated since then.

Uh, yeah, because he hasn't been running for president since then. What would he be debating for?

Yeah. I mean, so I, you just got to sit there and like, um, who wrote, you know that Joe didn't write the script, but who wrote this for Joe?

Unless he just got it wrong and they got tired of doing takes and they were just like, okay, yeah, just go with it.

I don't know. I can tell you who didn't write it. Obama's speech writers.

You know, it's, it's so crazy because Joe obviously was vice president to Obama, but when you see just the caliber of speeches,

Oh no, no, no. You're wrong there. You're wrong there. Yeah. Because Biden announced in a, in a speech that he was vice president during COVID and what

Obama had done to stop COVID. The only thing we can figure is he must have been vice president to Donald J.

Trump. I don't know. I don't know what to make of that. That guy is right now.

I mean, honestly, I mean, I know James White has said it before numerous times. I believe, I think we've probably said it on here too, but it is elderly abuse to just keep berating

Joe Biden up there the way he is. You know, you really get to see that when you look at like a

Donald Trump who could be off the cuff and smart and witty and he's only a few years younger. It really showed like,

I, I think a debate against Joe Biden and Trump will actually show that age.

It is kind of interesting because if you've noticed Joe Biden hasn't been able to get through speeches without yelling, it's like what keeps him going.

So I think whatever I, I do believe they're giving him some sort of drugs. Like I don't believe that cocaine found in the white house was his sons.

I think that's what they're giving him to stay awake for his meetings today and debates and things.

But that's how, you know, that's how Sherlock Holmes was able to stay up all night and solve crimes.

Cocaine. There we go. But you know, it is something where, you know,

Trump in that first debate, if you think about that first debate, they did. Trump, I think was trying to get under Joe Biden's skin, thinking that Joe Biden was going to lose it.

And what ended up happening was, I mean, Donald Trump just looked like a jerk, you know, he really did.

He came off and I get what he was trying to do if, if that's what he was trying to do. But because Biden kept this cool, but he kind of lost it, but the moderator was kind of helping out.

So Trump was debating two people, but, but he came off looking like a jerk. Now I think that it may be the reverse this time, because if Biden has to yell at people to keep himself awake and alert to keep going, if Trump, and I know this is, this is hard, but if Trump could just keep his cool.

Yeah. Like, look, just let Joe Biden unravel himself. All you gotta do is get them on stage, you know, and he'll, he'll do it.

But here's what I think since Biden's arguing, he won't debate if RFK is there, what would happen if, if Trump just turns around and says,

I'm going to be debate RFK forget Biden. And the two of them just talk about Biden's policies.

You know, I I've always thought it would be an interesting conversation between RFK junior and Donald Trump.

Yeah. Very much so. Because I mean, RFK, you know, RFK, if he wasn't a liberal and if he didn't have the stances on abortion that he does, right.

You know, he might be a good candidate, but, you know, he's too far left to be able to vote for.

I mean, and, and honestly, I think Trump is too far left to, to be able to vote as well.

But I think the conversation that they could have, I think, I think that might be a good cause

RFK is a very intelligent guy to him. Talk. This guy does his research like no other.

Exactly. Yeah. I think, I think the, the, the interesting thing, if you had a three way debate, okay.

The interesting thing would be that many conservatives would end up agreeing with RFK when it comes to vaccines.

And he would probably bring that up because it's, it's something that separates him from the other two.

What, what Trump would really should do. And he's just, it's,

I don't think it's in his nature to do this, but if he was to get into a debate like that and just admit he was wrong, he didn't have all the information about the vaccines.

I don't think he can admit he's wrong. That's, that's one of the issues. Okay. I just don't think he has it in him, but if he could admit he was wrong and he didn't have enough information,

I think he would do better in a debate with, with RFK or even

Joe Biden. But I don't think either Biden or, or Trump can admit that they're wrong.

Right. And, and that's a problem. And so RFK, I think would win on the, on the vaccine issue.

So, but it would, it would be interesting if you have RFK and, and Trump both debating each other against Biden's policies.

Yeah. And Biden not be there. Like that would be the thing to get. I mean, you'd have so many

Democrats that would just vote for RFK. Now I say that, but Dan Bongino actually had an interesting thought that since Biden won't resign, the thought is that they're trying to get rid of Biden.

They know he's failing, but he won't quit. So what do they do? And some are arguing that they put up an early debate so that they could show how bad he is and say, look, your numbers are now really tanking and replace him.

And he had an interesting thing. The thought of replacing with RFK at the convention, because they clearly don't want to seem to want to have

Kamala Harris, because if they wanted her, they would have just said, Hey, look, he's not competent to stand in trial.

Then he's not competent to be president. And they would just, you know, replace him.

Yeah. I forgot what that's called, but. 25th amendment. 26th. 26th. Yeah.

Yeah. Where if a president's not competent and. Which is what they ruled.

So, so with that, let's just see. Years worthwhile says good morning from the other side of the globe.

Pastor Andrew. Well, it is good to see you, Lorraine. And let's see.

What else do we have? Oh, yeah. Fatima said this. And this gets us into our topic of mental health says it's an emotional topic, but scripture puts me in the right place before God.

Thank you for the reminder. No assumptions, listen and pray. And that's what we're going to ask you guys to do now.

This was, I think, Drew, this was an idea you had after talking about MacArthur's comments, but you really want to talk about it in a broader sense.

Right. And so, and Aaron Brewster is going to come in later on tonight. After he's done teaching.

And so, and, you know, just to, you know, for Drew, I know that Aaron's kind of far from you, but, you know, he's, he's going to be, you know, just coming off of teaching people how to punch and kick and, you know, just, just keep that in mind if you disagree with him.

No, but, he ends up, he teaches karate on, on Thursday nights.

And so he can, he can get in, but, but late. So he's going to join us in a bit. So, and I should say, just as a programming note,

StreamYard, or I shouldn't say StreamYard, Facebook has taken away the ability to have us have this in different groups.

And so the groups that we usually post it in, we can't do it. So I know that people are not able to watch us on Facebook groups as they used to.

So here's my encouragement to everyone. If you could take this stream wherever you're watching it, whether it's on ApologizeLive .com

or Twitter or Facebook or YouTube, can you share it on other social medias right now?

Since Facebook is being, well, the tyrants they are. So we cannot, we can't share it in groups, but you directly, but you can.

And so if you guys could do us the favor and go out to wherever you are right now and share this so that we can just, that way folks will know about it because it's kind of hard for me to go sharing it while I'm doing it and trying to find it is a bigger issue.

So, so let's get into the topic, Andrew. I'm going to, I want to let, I mean, I'm going to let you start it off because, well, it was your topic.

So why don't you take it away and then we're going to have some discussion. Yeah. So obviously, you know, we have

John MacArthur's comments, which really caused a, a stir among people, especially on Twitter where everyone can be civil.

Nothing ever creates a stir on Twitter. What do you mean? That is the most civil place in the world.

It is the most holy place in the world outside of the church. Right. Yeah. And so that caused a stir, but you know, one of the things that I, that I think

Christians especially we tend to ignore and we tend to look over is that, especially in light of Dr.

MacArthur's comments is that mental health is a real thing. And we, we kind of look over it, brush past it because it's almost like that phrase mental health has kind of been taken and then been tainted by the left where everything now is just a result of mental health.

And it's not just someone living in sin, right? Everything has been chalked up to mental health, but we can't ignore the fact that mental health is a real issue especially when dealing with sin because it affects the mind.

But you know, you mentioned, I did want to, it also, I meant it in kind of a broader sense as well as, as though not just the mind, but also how we take care of the health of our body because that's important too.

And I made this comment a couple of weeks ago, especially me living here in the South.

Everyone is overweight. Let's just say that now. I thought everyone was

Christian in the South. They're that too. But now, now let me just, let me just make sure

I kind of cover my bases here. Like I'm not talking about overweight because of some kind of glandular issue, medical issue, you know, something where maybe they have something that they have to take medication for and that medication maybe causes them to retain a lot of water and gain weight or something, right?

We're not, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the people who gain weight because of a lack of discipline and putting down the fork, right?

Gluttony is still a sin and that affects your health, the health of your body, which

God has given to you, which you are to take care of. And so, so that was kind of the launching part.

But also, you know, dealing in this idea of mental health because we also have to be disciplined.

Where does that come through? It comes through the mind. We have to be disciplined in what we do. We have to be disciplined in our actions.

You know, we just, Oh, and Brewster is in the background. I see him. No, he's not.

He's in the foreground. What do you mean? He's in the foreground now. Wow. I feel like I'm in the foreground now.

Yeah. He's trying to see if my, okay. Yeah. All right. Sometimes the camera doesn't look good and then sometimes it looks,

I'm in it. So it already looks bad enough as it is. Andrew, man.

Long time no see. How's it going? Well, it's good for you. That's long time no see. Oh, which way, which Andrew? Sorry. No. That's why we go by Andrew and Drew.

It just makes it a little bit easier. That's right. It does make it easier. I appreciate that. You guys have got this whole topic figured out, right?

You are. Oh yeah, absolutely. All we did was watch a couple of YouTube videos, state the main points and we're pretty much done now.

Yeah. Is there anything that we need to do than a YouTube video? No. I mean, you literally can learn anything from a

YouTube video. And I want to, I want to look up and I forget, I want to think,

I want to say it's a first Timothy five, but I'm looking for the passage.

It says that talks about, you were talking about physical, not just the mental health, but the one that talks about your physical exercise is good.

Yeah. I'm trying to find it.

So someone in the chat, we'll think of it and let us know before I could find it. I'm sure. We're talking about the one where it says that physical exercise is of little profit.

Yeah. That's, that's what I'm thinking. Cause it's, it because there's, there's something important with that to note.

Wait, you misuse that. And, and it's something where, it's a first Timothy four, eight, first Timothy four, eight.

Okay. I was in five. So, so it says for bodily discipline is of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.

Now, an interesting thing with this passage is I could pretty much tell you, if I hear someone preach this passage,

I could tell you whether they're overweight or not. Not absolutely. By the way, they preach this because it, you know, you're talking about people that have trouble with, with gluttony or with putting down the fork.

And, and I should, I should admit, you know, for, for the audience with all openness is that gluttony is a sin that I have struggled with very much in the past and still in the present.

Okay. I used to, I used to run 40 to 60 hours a week and I would think

I was joking. I said I would, I run so I can eat like a pig and it doesn't show. And then when

I was at America's Keswick and I was counseling a guy that I was working with there and he was there for gluttony.

And as I am, so everything I said was right biblically as far as the council goes. But as I was counseling him,

I mean, the words were coming out of my mouth and somehow before they got to him, they, they made a turn and you know, went around the back of my head and smacked me upside the back of the head.

I remember when, when I left America's Keswick, I, I called my wife on the way home to let her know.

Cause I do, back then I'd always call to let her know I'm leaving. And, uh, and so now she could just see exactly where I am with the phones.

But I, I told her I was leaving. I said, and we're driving home. And I said, I realized tonight I'm a glutton and you know, it actually ruined my running for years because I actually was running so that I could give into my gluttony and feel okay about it.

And so this passage is one where people who are overweight and don't take care of themselves, the way they read this is see, you know, bodily, bodily disciplines.

It's a little profit. No good. You don't need it. Those who exercise and those who take care of their body point out that the, it's little profit in comparison to the godliness, which is profitable.

And there is that comparison because there's the, but there, so it's, it's not this, but this. So we're, we're physical exercise is good for us.

And this is how someone who exercises with how I ended up reaching, right. It is good for us, but compared to godliness, it's of little profit compared to the profit of godliness.

And so I think we have to recognize that overall for the

Christian, we talk about some of these things. The overarching thing is godliness.

That is going to be what's profitable for us as Christians. And therefore when we speak about the issue of physical health or mental health, we have to put it in light of how do

I glorify God in this? So, I mean, you were, you just got, you were just getting started though with some of the, some of the issue.

And when we get to the mental health issues I do want to say, you know, cause it's interesting.

I don't, I don't share this very often. And so this guy that I started off the show is saying that I had to block. I tried to explain to him.

He's like, well, you can't understand what it's like to have the issues I have. And it was interesting because he, he sent me a voice message so that I could hear his voice.

And what it is, I said, like, I'm not interested in your personal experience. I'm interested in the truth of God's word.

He says, well, I'm not arguing from experience. And then he sent me a 30 minute message that was nothing but his experience.

And I said to him, listen, just go and listen to how many times you used personal pronouns.

Just go and Jack, you know? And so the thing is, is that he's like, well, you can't understand what it's like because you've never lived this.

So as we, well, yeah, as, as we discuss this, I mean, first off, I disagree with that argument.

Like you have to live it to, you know, I don't have to be divorced to be able to count. Of course, just going to say that.

Yeah. Um, but I come from a background with a serious issue with OCD.

Uh, I would be classified as ADHD. Okay. But see,

I don't use those terms for me because A, they're not biblical. And I, you know, there are like the

OCD, I learned how to overcome that. And it's, it, was it easy? Absolutely not.

But it's a difference of your thinking versus your feeling. And so I would feel like some, like I gotta go check the door lock, even though I lived alone and there's nobody else in the house.

It's not like someone snuck in my window and came in and unlocked the door, but I would check my door seven, eight, 12 times a night.

Just, I mean, I would be sitting in the room where the door is and cause I had a one bedroom apartment and I would,

I would go to check to see, you know, is it locked?

And it's, it was a feeling thing and it was painful. But what I had to do is stop feeling and start thinking.

So I ended up, um, you know, dealing with the fact of saying, look,

I just have to, I know I feel like I got to check the door, but I just got to ignore that because I know that there's no one that came in.

Um, same thing with checking the stove, there'd be things, you know, I had to have my clothes ordered a certain way in the closet.

And so my wife was really good with helping me with a lot of that when I, when I got married, it helped. So can you recover from some of these things?

Some of the things? Yes. But some things, no, I recognize that there's, there's going to be physical things there.

There are things. And I do want to say that, uh, we do need to be aware when, when people put out studies that say, well, look, these studies show that someone with PSTD has this gene and, and things like that.

I get that the studies show that, but we have to also take into account. There's a, a area of research called epigenetics.

And the thing with epigenetics shows that the question is, you know, when they were talking about the gay gene, all people that practice homosexuality, they can't help, but they just have this gene.

Well, what epigenetics shows is that behavior can actually change the genes.

So now the question is, did someone have, because they never checked when they say that people have the, the gay gene, they only check those people who practice homosexuality.

So now that we have this study of epigenetics, the question becomes, did the behavior change the genes?

And therefore it's because they all behave the same way that they have that gene was there beforehand.

You know, and talking about that, it kind of brings light almost to Romans one, right?

Where God gives them over to their sin, right? They live in that, they want to live in that and engage in that behavior, that sinful behavior.

And God says, okay. And I love how Dr. Steve Lawson says when God gives them over, he's pushing them in that direction.

He's saying, there you go. Right. Going right on down the Hill. So I think what you just said, kind of, you know, when you engage in that behavior, when you engage in sin to that extent and reject

God, it does have an effect on you in that way. Yeah. So I I'm hesitant to even say this next part because the the chat is on fire tonight.

Well, I want to just post it. I want to post it. So, you know, so John is saying this, cause

I do want to address this. John says, and Brewster, thank you. Just so you know, I will not listen to you because of your views on yoga.

I strongly disagree with you. So John, let me just speak to this for a moment before Aaron says anything. First off, even if you disagree with him on his view on yoga, that doesn't mean he's wrong on everything.

In fact, he can be wrong on everything but yoga, right? I mean, down that episode, we, you know,

Aaron and I disagreed on that, but just because I disagree with him on that does not mean

I'm not going to listen to him on other areas. In fact, I do listen to him because I value his advice and I value his counsel and I value his, his views on a lot of things.

It doesn't mean I agree with everything, but so do, do not.

And this is something as Christians and we're right, we're here on this show to teach apologetics. One thing you never want to do is wrote everything someone says out because you disagree with one thing, one position they have.

Okay. That actually hurts you more than anyone. Okay. So, um, but yeah, if that's how we lived and did ministry, right, we would all just be a bunch of islands, right?

We would have nobody. Well, that's why we fill ourselves with, you know, surround ourselves with our echo chambers and so on and so forth.

I mean, and you're right. Like I, I, I would want to separate from myself most days, honestly, because there are days

I don't disagree. I don't agree with myself. Um, but I, I, I say this because what

I'm about to say, I'm going to be really transparent with you guys. Um, people could weaponize this against me, you know,

Hey, you know, may the Lord judge between us. But so growing up, I'm thankful that I grew up in a time when mental illness didn't exist.

And you'll understand why I say that in a minute, but had it, had I grown up in this day and age, I would have been diagnosed, clinically diagnosed with ADHD.

Um, I would have been diagnosed with ODD. I would have been diagnosed with.

What is ODD? That is, um, uh, it's a defiance disorder. I always get the

O wrong. Um, I would have been diagnosed with, uh, my, my, my brain's going blank now.

Even when I was five years old, I would have been diagnosed with gender dysphoria, believe it or not. I wanted nothing more than to put on a bunch of a girl's clothes and flounce around.

So, uh, depression, anxiety, all this stuff. Thankfully again, my parents wouldn't have bought into that.

And, uh, that wasn't in vogue. The reality is that, and I don't like to use the term mental illness unless I'm saying, but I don't like to use the term mental illness because first of all, it makes no sense.

Illness is a breakdown of a tissue. Your mind is an immaterial thing. You can have a brain illness.

You can't have a mental illness. It's not a thing. Um, it doesn't even, it doesn't even make sense from a linguistic standpoint, but we can have things.

Let me ask it in this way. Do you believe that we can have physical things that affect the, the immaterial mind or have things in the immaterial mind that affect the physical?

Yeah, for sure. So we are, I'm a dichotomous, so I believe that we are made up of a body and a spirit and those things are intrinsically linked in a way that we can understand.

I believe that our emotions, uh, our feelings actually are a significant link between those two.

Again, in a way that we can't explain the Bible doesn't take the time to explain it for us. So yes, um, when

I'm, uh, I have, I have a family member who basically died of bitterness. She killed herself because she was a bitter person.

Now she didn't commit suicide, but the effect that her rampant life altering bitterness had on her body, uh, ended in her dying.

And I believe that, yes, we have temptations that can affect us when we're sick and we're broken, right?

Physically. Um, but that doesn't can't make a sense. So the example that I use is this, if I had a 50 pound backpack on, it's gonna be hard for me to jump rope.

Now I can, I can try to jump that rope with a 50 pound backpack on and mess it up and stink.

It's, I'm not going to be able to jump rope well with a 50 pound backpack on, but that doesn't mean

I have to sit in the process. I don't have to get angry and frustrated. I don't have to curse the rope and throw it across the room.

I don't have like, that doesn't make me do that. That brings a lot of temptation into the situation to discontentment and not being thankful and angry and whatever else, but it doesn't make me do that.

So yes, I will argue that of course, a brain illness can put stressors and pressures into my life that increase that temptation to sin.

But biblically speaking, that can't make me sin. So the whole argument of a mental illness breaks down completely, but from a biblical standpoint, it doesn't exist.

Um, now we have to be careful because people swing into two camps. There's the, you know, the secularists on the one side and say, everything about us is biological.

Everything about us is an issue. I'm not going to go into it. I have the DSM five sitting right here.

Um, Wait, wait, wait, wait. You have the DSM five. You keep a copy of that.

Yeah. I'm going to step off the camera here real quick. You are the first person I know that actually keeps a cup.

Like I know the only people I know it's covered in dust. There it is.

Yep. So, uh, boy, oh boy. Now what's interesting is that they're not even consistent with themselves.

Things that would have been in here being considered a mental illness in the past, all of a sudden aren't anymore. And what's really strange is those things are all political.

Homosexuality used to be in here, mental illness, transgenderism used to be in here, mental illness, not anymore.

Why? Because the science shows that it's not because the culture says that it's not. So the, so we have physiological issues.

Okay. But we also have spiritual issues. We call those sins, right?

OCD oftentimes grows from, uh, ultimately not trusting God, not trusting other people.

I'm not saying by the way, please don't hear anything I'm saying and just go, Oh, Aaron says that OCD is always a trust issue.

I'm not saying that you can have, um, a physical illness that causes you to feel depressed, but that's very different from the, the spiritual depression that relates in hopelessness and despair and giving up on God.

Okay. So to say that it's all a sin is not what the

Bible says. And to say that it's all biological physiological is not what the Bible says. So the wise

Christian, whether they're the counselor, the person experiencing it, whatever the case may be, it's going to try to do two things.

Number one, what are my stressors? What's going on in my body? Am I sick? Do I have a breakdown in my tissues?

Um, things like that, that are encouraging increasing the stressors and the pressures in my life. Number two, we've got to say, we recognize the fact that I'm not as spiritually mature as I should be, or as I could be.

I obviously I'm going to grow by God's grace and be conformed to his image until the day that I die. So I have to leave the door kicked wide open for the fact that in, though I might have physical issues that yeah, of course

I have spiritual issues. I'm not perfect. I'm not going to be that, uh, first John guy who lies to myself by saying

I don't have any sin. So we want to find out where am I sinning potentially, where might there be a physical issue that could use some addressing.

And that's how we're going to work at this. We're not going to call something a sin that God doesn't call a sin, but we're also not going to say that something that God says is a sin isn't.

So that's kind of the introductory want to throw it out there. I don't use the term mental illness because I don't believe it exists.

I think it's just a repackaging. Uh, it's a, there are better biblical words to use in my opinion.

And that's what I prefer to do. And that's what I think MacArthur was trying to say. He does. He's not saying that the, the experiences don't exist.

It's it's the, the label that they give toward it and the treatment that they give toward it that he, he was disagreeing with.

And so just some of the comments that are here, um, and folks, just reminder, you are welcome to join us.

Just go to apologetics, live .com. Click on the duck icon, get joined into stream yard.

Uh, when you join stream yard, you just have to give permission on your browser to use the mic and camera. You don't have to be on camera.

If that's an issue for you, that's fine. Uh, I see. I mean, the comments are quite active.

It's a, which they always are. If folks, if you're not watching this live, um, I, for those,

I mean, I know there's thousands that listen on the podcast, but if, if you're not watching it live, you, you know, you're missing out on the comments that they can be off, but, uh,

Stan got it right. Danine got it right. It's oppositional divine. I was going to get to that one. Uh, Stan, who is a member, the little icon next one means that he supports us on, uh,

YouTube. So, and you can do that. You can give us super chats. If you like what we say, you can even go to super chats.

If you don't like what we say. Uh, and, uh, you know, so Stan says, sin creates mental health issues.

Uh, and that is his background. He's, he's a counselor. So, you know, I meant to say at the beginning of the show, actually drew, uh, this was your idea to discuss.

So I should, I did want to save to the folks who are listening. Uh, if you, if you have any issues, if you totally disagree with the show, just remember this was

Drew's idea. And if you, if you really liked the show and you thought it was great, just remember that I approved the idea.

Yeah. Aaron's turning to himself to say, Hey, yeah, count me in. Okay. I slide in at the end and say my thing.

Uh, Melissa says, I have a question for am Brewster is counting as I've been diagnosed with OCD.

A lack of self -control. I have accepted it as being part of, of what

I do, uh, that is to relieve stress and cope. So what are your thoughts on that?

Well, first of all, I never going to make some wide ranging diagnosis without having spent time with an individual, getting to know them.

I don't know your heart. Man sees the outward appearance. Okay. I can say why some people do it and I can say why potentially you might do it.

But obviously this is not me saying this is your issue. Um, we do oftentimes,

I mean, think about any habit that we have. Okay. I'll be honest about my habit. You were talking about food earlier, Andrew.

And, um, I can eat subconscious stress eating. It's like, I don't even realize

I'm doing it. It's terrible, which is why I have a phone tracker and I track all the calories I take in.

Cause I, when I don't do that, it's a, it's insane how much food I'll eat. Um, and I, so there are things that we do habitually that we don't even realize we're doing it because it became part of who we are over time.

However, that doesn't make it right. Like one of the worst arguments in our culture today is this is just who

I am. Christian version of that is this is how God made me. Uh, well, correct.

Yep. Yes. It's how God made me. It's how he wired me. This is just who I am.

And we, we kind of throw that out there basically. Like it's kind of really ends up just being an excuse for why I don't have to try to change.

Yeah. But the reality is that God is in the business of changing people. Okay. That's what he came to do.

He came to give us new life and to change us into his image spiritually, though, not physically. We know that we live in a cursed world and so our bodies are going to break down.

All right. All of that to say, you gotta ask yourself why, um, you know, different people handle different ways.

I don't know exactly how you handle it, but whether it's the counting of, uh, the tiles and you're sitting in the restroom and you feel the need to count the tiles, uh, whether it's, uh, you know, wanting to count the number of, um, ketchup packets that you have in your refrigerator, whatever the case may be, you have to ask yourself why because Philippians chapter four commands us to think in a certain way.

And one of the things that we find very often is that this type of obsessive behavior doesn't fit into any of these categories.

It's not valuable. It's not commendable. It's not excellent. It's not worthy of praise.

Uh, you can argue that it's true. I counted it accurately. Great. You counted it. Why are you counting it again?

You know how many are there. So when you start to ask those questions and you start to potentially many people start to realize that I don't really have a reason.

I can't say it is glorifying to God that I need to do this. Is it wrong to count?

No, but you know, as well as I do, if you've been, um, if you've been labeled OCD, you have a compulsion to count.

You feel like you must count. And so I have to do this thing because of the way that I feel, and it has nothing to do with glorifying

God. Well, then if that's the issue that is in and of itself, self -worship, I'm doing this for me because the way that I feel, what

I want to accomplish, what I want to do with no thought whatsoever to God. So I would say, if you really try to dig down, why do

I do this? Why do I feel the need to do this as a child? I'll just use this example and I'll turn it back over to those two guys. And when

I was probably about six, seven, eight, uh, I, this is very typical for people who have

OCD. Um, some people, anyway, if I had looked, if I saw something caught my eye over here, I turned to look at it.

Okay. I will look at it. And then I will come back to center and I just, everything inside of me felt unbalanced.

If I did not turn my head in the opposite direction, the equal and opposite direction and look for the same amount of time, even if I weren't staring at anything and then back to the center,

I would just feel like I just couldn't move forward until I felt balanced again. I did that all of the time.

And I remember being about eight years old, walking down a supermarket with my mother. She was ahead of me.

I looked at something in the seafood section and I turned and I saw my mom and I was walking toward her and I felt that urge in my soul to look the other direction.

And I started to look and I had a thought, my eight year old brain said, Aaron, what are you doing? Why do you do this?

My mom was getting further ahead of me. And I felt the need to look down this aisle for no reason whatsoever before following her.

And I argued with myself and I said, this is stupid. Stop. And I remember that day forcing myself to not complete the look and just stare at my mom and keep walking forward.

And it was so uncomfortable. It was like tearing me up on the inside. But I took that step and then

I took another step and then I took another step. And by God's grace, it was a very short period of time. I say very short in my span of my lifetime.

It probably took over a year or so. And this is just an eight year old, eight year old self -control. Right. Um, I actually, and by the way, when

I was eight years old, I also wasn't born again. Okay. So I was an eight year old, an unsaved eight year old.

I forced myself to get over that. I broke the habit. And now I no longer feel that way.

And I haven't felt that way for a long time. So just because you do a thing, doesn't mean you have to do the thing.

Doesn't mean you should do the thing. We have to say, does this glorify God? What, why am

I doing it? And does this please him? If I'm not, then I need to fight that. And if I am by God's grace, continue doing it to his glory.

Yeah. And you know, something that you said is important. And we got someone backstage, uh, but it says his devices, he or she is devices not connected.

So once they see that's connected, we could bring them in because otherwise we can't hear their audio. So, um, but I mean, the thing to point out with what you had said there,

Aaron, is the fact that when we label people, it does have an effect.

I knew someone who he was labeled bipolar and what he would do regularly.

Unfortunately is whenever he acted out, that was his excuse.

I can't help it because I'm bipolar. I'm just manic right now.

And so the, the reason that I'm against some of the labeling is because one of the effects that it has,

I'm not saying the only effect, I'm not saying it has that effect on everyone. I'm just saying one of the effects it has on many people is to excuse sin.

Now I'm not saying everything's a sin either, but it is something that people use to excuse sin.

And for that reason, I prefer to use biblical language and, uh, make biblical arguments.

So, uh, Drew, I'll hand it over to you. Yeah. So, uh, when

Aaron was talking, one of the things I was thinking of, and maybe Aaron can speak to this as well is, uh, you know,

I think about my four year old and, uh, when he was, when he was two, everyone was starting to say that he's autistic.

Uh, and because he would just, he would do things, he would do things where he would, they do, uh, they say what's called stemming.

You know, he would just have these reactions and then he would, he would have to do it in order to get this, uh, fulfillment, um, that causes him to stem.

And then, uh, but he does this thing when he plays with his cars or he used to do this thing and he would line up all of his cars in a particular way.

And then he would mess them all up and then he would line them all up again in the same way. I mean, he would do things.

Dinosaurs. Yeah. He would do it so meticulously and you weren't allowed to touch them.

You were just allowed to watch and he would, but he would do this constantly and then he would do a run.

Do that as an adult. What's the problem? I love, I line up all my cars too, man, out in the garage.

Come on. Um, well, not as cars, but yeah. But and then he, he also runs, right?

He, uh, uh, he runs back and forth in the house and I say, Lawson, stop running.

And he goes, but dad, I gotta run. Right. And then he just, he keeps running and it's a form of stemming.

And so, uh, person now, my thought, Aaron, you know, you can speak into this as well.

Uh, my thought is he's four. He's got a ton of built up energy that he needs to get out.

And I can't just throw them out in the backyard cause we got tons of poison Ivy that I need to get rid of. But if I could,

I just throw them out there. Just to let them run it all out. Actually that you can let him run in the poison Ivy. There's a trick to poison

Ivy that he's going to love. Let them run in the poison Ivy and then rub. No, no rubbed dirt.

It's a little, little known fact. I learned this in military. If you're in poison Ivy, you rubbed the dirt, the dirt absorbs the, the oil.

So he gets the benefit of not only playing in the backyard, running around and then getting himself full of mud and dirt, which he'll love as well.

Your wife will love it too. Have her have them do that. They'll thank you for it next time.

Yeah. Next time do that. Just toss them out there. Take off kid. But it's just, so my view of it is he's got all this energy because he's four and he just doesn't know how to control that energy and release it.

So he just runs back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. Again, I can't say exactly.

I would say you always want to make certain that some pure medicine is done. And when I say pure medicine,

I mean a doctor who's not also a philosopher, you know, who's actually just going to say, okay, he's, he doesn't have any bacterial infections.

He doesn't have any fungal infections. He's not broken here and there, right? His brain scans look good. You know, whatever, whatever you're going to do, spit tests, blood tests, whatever, you know?

Okay, fine. A lot of this stuff is behavioral. In fact, vast majority of the

DSM five is identifying people with mental disorders based solely off of their behavior.

There are no tests being done and that is so dangerous. The thing about autism though is that autism has become kind of our catchphrase.

Somebody in the chat was mentioning Asperger's a while ago. Asperger's officially doesn't exist from a medical perspective. So if you were told you have

Asperger's, well, you've been cured because the medical profession says there is no such thing as Asperger's anymore, but they've lumped in a bunch of stuff.

They've lumped in people who have legitimate what we call physical handicaps, special needs people.

Okay. They've put them into the autism spectrum, but they've also put in the people on the other side who have basically everything that they're struggling with is behavioral.

And so a child who is, you know, who is very rebellious and doesn't obey, doesn't listen to class or whatever,

ADHD or whatever, he's lumped into the autism spectrum potentially too, not because of ADHD, but because of his behaviors.

And that's part of it also, right? With my four year old, because sometimes he doesn't obey.

Sometimes he does, but if he's like, let's say he's at school, right? He obeys perfectly.

There's no issue. Yeah. Which is always a tell. I love when the ADHD kids can't pay attention to the things they don't like, but can pay attention to the things.

That's always been my thing is okay, but they can play games for three hours and keep complete concentration.

We got some people in the back. Now I know Christian is in the back from the Philippines, just listening. So actually here's someone else that's, and this may be the same

Christian who is in backstage. So it's early morning there. I want to go through some of these quickly just to get them, but there's some specific ones.

And I know Melissa's backstage. I'm going to bring her in. I want to deal with some specific comments, but I just want to go through some of these.

So Fatima says, yes, it helps to know that there are neuro, neuro, neuro biological or physical basis for mental conditions, such as schizophrenia, thinner frontal lobe, which has the physical and behavioral symptoms.

So yeah, there are some things. And as Aaron said, there, there's things with the way the material and immaterial part of our soul works that we just don't understand.

Okay. So we have to recognize that this is from earlier, but Stan says, yes, epigenetics is spot on environment impacts genes behaviors impact.

So that brother John is referring to what I said earlier.

He says, interesting advice. Andrew, my comments was regards to yoga. Doreen let us know what

ODD stands for oppositional defiance disorder. Uh, I'm totally disagreeing with that.

I'm, I'm being, Oh wait, no. Um, John, John says, Andrew. Yeah. Um, I'm still odd.

Thank you, Andrew. You talk about strong men arguing often. I have fellowship with Drew Post Mill and others in my church.

My problem is yoga and it's danger in the church. And I'll, I'll say, John, I agree that there's, there could be a danger in the church with it, but that doesn't mean that everything

Aaron is going to say is wrong. Uh, he also had said, um, Andrew, you can flush my comments on the screen and say that I'm an error or in defiance, not saying

ODD, uh, defiance of Aaron Brewster's teaching on yoga on your show. Interesting response.

I'm a long time viewer. I know you're a long time viewer. Um, I, you know, I think that it's just something where I, I don't want you to throw out the baby with the bathwater to use that thing.

Uh, Anthony says the stupidity continues this coming from a guy who thinks that the

Bible teaches that people can practice homosexuality or at least be in a same sex cuddling relationship.

But we'll have that debate soon. I'm sure. I haven't gotten to all my emails, but, uh, he wants to have a formal debate this time.

He says the Bible teaches that well, he teaches that he doesn't have a def a proper biblical definition of lust and therefore he can't because if he has a biblical definition of lust, it throws out his idea that he can as a male cuddle with another male, you know, in a relationship, as long as they don't consummate it.

And so that'll be an interesting debate we could do, uh, to my comment that if people don't like the show, that it's you, it was your idea.

Melissa said, Drew's the fall guy. You can blame everything on me. And my response will be this.

All right. It's your post meal. Um, so, um,

Kathy had said, um, I accept the way God made me, uh, as he has transformed me to be so, uh, brings self control to bear on my thinking through scripture.

And that's part of the thing. Now I went through some of those quickly. I want to get to these next couple that we have.

And Aaron, I know you've been engaging with this. I started off the show talking about someone that I did not want to have to block, but, um, but I did.

And so, um, you know, it was just because I just was being inundated and I'm, you know, and if he wants to come in, we could have the discussion here.

But the thing is, is this is going to show, cause I want to be fair and put up his comments.

We can engage with them, but this is the point that I made is that I want you to listen to what we're actually saying, because in the comments,

Aaron already corrected you on something and you went on to continue to say, he's saying what he didn't say.

So, um, uh, AW Pink Panther says the problem with the denial of physical brain impairments, other than the fact that the entire premise is denial of reality is the process of everything from their own experiences, but we didn't deny physical brain impairments.

That's the thing. He went, goes on to say, it's a false dichotomy to force people to choose whether the issue is physical or spiritual, because it's both.

You have deliberately denied the reality of the worldview and the consensus of medical science.

We have not, we said that there is, we clearly said the physical can affect the mental and the mental can affect the physical.

So we said this and you're ignoring it. This is why I ended up having to block you. He says to say someone with a brain impairment is merely making an excuse of sin is outright lie.

As much as to say, Justin Peters is in sin for not walking. It's no different than brain damage.

I believe you at the beginning of the show, you, the guy you had to block.

This is the guy. Yeah. Okay.

And then he goes, uh, you guys are nothing more than bullies who beat up handicapped people.

I don't remember beating up anyone. So I just want, you know, so Phil don't think that I was a big meanie for blocking someone.

Um, you're seeing here that in the engagement he's having and we, we, we clearly, clearly are not saying what he keeps accusing us of saying and saying that we're the big bullies.

I believe we preface this in the entire beginning of the show. Maybe he didn't hear the beginning.

And I came in and said it when I came in. Right. But, but even if he came in later and that it's possible.

Okay. So, but even if he came in later, we were very clear when he was responding that we're not doing the things he's claiming that we're doing.

Okay. And I've been going back and forth in the chat. I'm just like, no, it didn't say that. Exactly. And, and this is, this is why

I said this, this is an emotional topic that some people get so wrapped up in, um, that it's like, and, and, and what he is trying to do, and I want to give his real name, but what he's trying to, he's like, he's trying to convince me that he's right.

Okay. Now you're taking his quotes out of context. Correct. I thought you just posted them.

You know, I thought that's what you did. He's just read them literally in context. Yeah. Oh, he said, wait,

I didn't get down that far. He said I took it out of context. Yeah. And then you're twisting his comments. I'm twisting his comments.

All I did was read them. Yeah. All I did was read them. And, and so this is the issue is if you have to listen to what is actually being said, okay.

Um, you know, cause he's saying here, uh, I have the same, uh, exact theologies in MacArthur, but I don't deny the reality of physical impairment.

Neither does MacArthur does any of us. I don't. Okay. Andrew, let me, let me, let me just, uh, say this because, you know, it's just, it does seem like the

AW pink Panther. All he wants to do is just be right. Okay. So AW pink

Panther. Hey, you're right. You're right. You're right. Homeboy, you are right.

Now let's move on. So I think an important piece of this conversation, um, uh, is listen, the

Bible says more so than any other command in scripture, fear not.

The Bible says that do not be afraid. And the Bible gives us tons and tons of reasons to not be afraid.

Now, when a person experiences what they call fear, there's one, generally one of two reasons that they're experiencing that one is actually a misunderstanding.

A lot of people say that that adrenaline rush that a person gets, um, is they define that feeling as fear.

That's inappropriate because later on, they're going to define that feeling as exhilaration. They might define that feeling as a romantic attraction.

Okay. But sometimes they define it as fear. So I can go into that. We can talk about chemistry later, but that's one side of it is that they say, oh, there's this adrenaline rush.

I'm afraid on the other side of it though. There is a sinful fear that results from not trusting

God that results from looking at the wave like Peter did and starting to sink and freaking out and crying out, help me

Lord. Okay. And the key is to identify which one it is.

Is it the sinful fear that God clearly says is a sin or is it just an, a feeling being produced by a fungal infection or an adrenaline rush or the medication that I happen to be on or the fact that I haven't gotten enough sleep, which one is it?

But regardless of what I'm feeling, if I'm choosing to sin in that experience, it's a sin.

All right. And that's the key. If you don't like the Bible, right? And you want to say that fear is never a sin because fear is always physiological.

I have to disagree with you because God disagrees with you in his word. Yeah. So let me,

I noticed this in bring scripture out of context here. Don't break the bruised reed and don't quench the smoldering wick.

Yeah. You referring to us doing that? Well, yeah, because he says, um, you're lying again.

So I do want to, I want to get some audience participation in the chat. If you are in, um, if you're in, uh,

YouTube, you can chat. Uh, so here's the question I want everyone to do me a favor and, and just identify which who's lying.

Are the three of us lying? Um, because he, he, he said here, where was it?

He said, the, you said, quote, it's all behavioral unquote, several times.

I don't remember ever saying that. Um, and so my challenge to A .W.

Pink Panther is I want you to go back and count, give us exact timestamps where we said it's all behavioral.

I wanted the exact timestamps and accounts, but he accused us of lying. And so here's what

I want audience participation. So my question, when he says it's all behavioral, because I'm wondering if he's referring to something

Aaron said, where Aaron was speaking about something specific.

And the DSM five. Yes. Also the things that they used to diagnose, which has nothing to do with tests.

I had to say it only one time. That's correct. Yeah. So, so what I want the audience to do is

I'm going to give it to you guys to vote. Uh, I'll let you all vote. I think on Twitter, you might be able to respond as well on Facebook.

I think, I think we could see the comments, but, uh, you're going to decide. You're going to post who's lying

A .W. or the three guys. So go ahead. You put your votes in.

Uh, we'll wait for the tally while, while we're waiting. He, he's saying, um, let me on your

YouTube live and I'll speak for myself. Uh, let me in live. Uh, there's no one stopping you.

Anyone can come live gatekeeper. He there's no gatekeeper. Melissa's backstage.

She's going to come in, uh, soon. And then a Christian is from the Philippines is just watching, but I do want to get to two comments, uh, that in, in Aaron's exchange here,

A .W. Pink Panther said, this is not different than the teacher who thinks every kid is lying, who needs to use the restroom and toxicity builds up, forcing the child with a small bladder to wet his pants.

To which Aaron responded with wedding. Your pants isn't a sin.

Okay. So here's the thing. Look, if you wet your pants, let me tell you what you do.

Okay. It's really simple. Just go out to mypillow .com

and get yourself a towel and carry it around with you. So you can, you know, keep that from, from, you know,

Brian pillow wants their towels being used like that. Well, I was looking for a way to transition and that was well done.

The most creative that we could, you don't want a pillow for that. And so Melissa's cracking up,

I think backstage. And so, so the, the reality is go get yourself a nice towel.

It's they're super absorbent. So you got that going for you. They're not really heavy like others absorbent towels.

So you get the benefit of a lighter towel. It's heavier than some, it's kind of a midway towel, but super absorbent.

I think they are still having their extravaganza where everything is like $25 using a promo code.

And the promo code to use is S F E. It stands for striving for eternity. And so that is something that you can go get.

If there was ever a time you wanted to get something from my pillow, now is it because I've never seen them have the prices where like so much of their stuff is just $25.

So now would be a great time to go out. You can get their brand new two dot O pillows, buy one, get one free.

Their original standard pillows I think are $25. So go to my pillow .com use promo code

S F E. And that lets them know that you heard about them from here so that they keep supporting us.

Now, after you get your pillow and the definitely get the three inch mattress topper, that changed my sleep.

But after you get that, and we, I had a guest in my wrap report podcast and he, he had a bed that he didn't want to have to replace the whole bed.

And so what he did was he just got that three inch mattress topper from the, you know, from them.

And what ended up happening was he said, it was like getting a whole new bed. And so you could go and do that like he did and get a much cheaper feel of a brand new bed.

But after you get yourself a good night's sleep, then what I suggest to do is go to squirrely Joe's coffee and get yourself some good coffee to wake up in the morning.

Now what you do there is go to striving for eternity .org slash coffee.

That's where you go. And that's where you go to do your reorders. Because if you go to striving for turning .org slash coffee, that lets them know that you heard about them from us every time you reorder.

But remember something on your first order was squirrely Joe's coffee. And it is a very good tasting coffee,

I will add. But when you go there, you the first time buyers can get themselves 20 % off using the promo code

SFE. And so it is, it's a, a good coffee. You're supporting a fellow

Christian brother in Christ. So go to striving for turning .org slash coffee to get yourself a good cup of Joe and make sure that when you do that, if it's your first time ordering, you are using the promo code

SFE to get your discount. I suggest you do that for your whole church.

And so go in and get that. So let's see how our voting came in. Did we get some votes in from folks while I was doing the commercial?

Not really. Not really. I think people are being, they're being kind. They're being nice.

But, but I, what's funny is that I was being the meanie. If A .W. wants to come on, what's funny is that he's, he's, he, or she,

I guess is asking a hundred different, he's asking a number of different times how to get on.

Give me a link. Give me a link. Give me a link. And we're like, dude, here's the instructions on the very bottom all night long.

You might find it on Thursday nights to ask questions or offer challenges. Apologetics live .com.

It's right there to see that at the bottom. You just go to a pilot. We start every show explaining it. I, you know, apologetics live .com.

You go there, you click on the duck icon, the stream yard link to join.

You give your browser permission to use your microphone and you're in. I do.

I do. He's thinking is I think, Oh, sorry. Tag, you're it.

Okay. Um, I think he thinks we are streaming from YouTube rather than through YouTube.

So, so we stream from stream yard, which allows us to stream through Facebook and YouTube.

So we're not streaming from YouTube where you go and you get in from YouTube. We go to stream yard because, and we all have to go to stream yard in order to get on here.

So that's how it works. I was explaining in the chat too, but you're totally misrepresenting everything

I said because you're not providing a link for me. And yet the link is right there on the bottom, scrolling through.

So I have to make a, just a prediction that I hope I, I make the prediction hoping that it will be unsure.

I'm hoping that people will work to make certain that it is untrue. Um, I really, I would love for a w a w to get up here.

Um, because I, I love having charitable conversations and whatnot. My concern is that it's not gonna be charitable.

My concern is that it's going to be the same live as it was in the chat with pejoratives and absolutely 100 % completely dismissing things clearly communicated.

Now, Lord willing, it won't be that. Okay. I'm, again, I'm saying this because in a way I'm, I'm inviting for it to not be that.

Um, but, um, everyone, everyone is watching. Some people are like, you know, why do we have to have a vote?

Or why do we have to talk about this? Can't we just move on? Well, the reality is that we are to speak truth in love.

And these things that are being said, these, these accusations, but these claims that are being put out is really, it's indicative of the huge problem that we have in our culture today, where people just get to say, they get to make up truth.

They get to say that such and such didn't happen. It's like, well, I'm literally on video doing it. I mean, I think politicians are fantastic.

They will say things knowing they're being recorded for posterity, that their images and their words will be on the internet for the rest of, until Christ comes back.

Right. Um, and yet they will contradict themselves and just act like that past thing they said never actually happened.

And we live in this delusion. So I, if, I'd love to have a conversation where someone can say green is my favorite color.

And the other person says, I see that green is your favorite color, not you hate green. All right. But, but we'll see.

That's my prediction. We'll see what happens. Well, I mean, and, and I, I, look, I had to block him when

I blocked him. I told him, I said, if you have to respond, that is the, that is pride.

I mean, that's the evidence of pride. So like, if you feel you have to respond, that is something that tells you, like that's what pride does.

Apparently I'm poisoning the well. I just poisoned the well by what I said. He says, uh, these are the kinds of people who will distort every word you say, uh, to, to a person and crack jokes, but they're lying and know how to manipulate their audience.

We're not lying. We read your comments. We didn't take it out of context. Uh, so he says that, uh, it's extremely immature.

Well, he is backstage. Um, so yeah, he did say we're poisoning.

Well, so I'm going to go to Melissa first because she wasn't first. And this way we can have a new Melissa has some, some question wants to talk more.

And I think he's going to disagree with some of what we said and that's okay. So Melissa, welcome to the show.

Hi, can you hear me? No, we can't hear you at all. Okay. Um, well this, well, as you know, this, uh, subject started off with a question and answer to John McArthur, but then

I also watched a sermon that John McArthur was, uh, he was, um, talking about, it's called crisis sufficient for all your crisis.

But then what happened to me, all that first that I was all upset it was that he was talking about mental illness.

And we, uh, I don't know if he said exactly, but he said it does like it basically does this.

And what happened is it got me all upset because, uh, what happened is

I, I was, I talked to my friend and she's like, what is it that it's upsetting you about? It's because like for a long time,

I've been on medication. She said, I, I'm not telling you not to be on medication. And he didn't either.

And also what else happened is most of my life is, is around mental illness.

It's like, I get my money from cause I have been diagnosed. And, um, and so all these things were bringing up insecurities that things like fear the future of fear that God's not going to take care of me.

And even the accounting, I thought about it. Like you said, you want to know what makes me do it?

Like when I count, it helps me think like, it helps me relieve the thought that I have insecurity that, that I think

I'm going to go to hell. If, if I don't do this thing, if I don't count, if I don't make sure

I feel better about it. And so that's one of the things that I went to have it.

It's give you insight on that. And maybe people with mental illness or that think they, whatever you would call it, that they might be thinking that might be touching on their insecurities and in themselves and in God.

First of all, I just want to say, thank you so much for sharing that. That is not an easy thing to discuss on an open forum on the internet.

So thank you for that. As we talking about insecurities. Okay. If I were to go to a classical psychiatrist today,

I would be definitely diagnosed with clinical inferiority complex that just 100 % in the flesh.

I, Aaron Brewster, perpetually doubt myself, basically think that nobody likes me, that at bare,

I mean, and this is true for Andrew, but that they tolerate me at best and that I always see myself as a failure and I always think of myself as being, but here's the thing, biblically speaking, here's the reality, that's pride.

I'm obsessed with self. I'm constantly thinking about self.

I'm always wondering about what people are thinking about me, but when I take my eyes off of myself and when

I'm focusing on God and the greatness of who he is and what he's done for me, when I'm focusing on the command he has for me to love others and to serve others and I'm not thinking about myself, the beautiful thing is, is that I don't feel inferior.

I don't struggle with those things because my eyes are where they should be. So that's just me.

I'm not saying anything to you. I'm just being honest and transparent as you were honest and transparent with me. So is it sinful that every time you speak,

I sit there and go, man, I wish I could be as smart as him? Is that then the same thing for me when

I'm looking at you going, man, is that an inferior? I don't know. Maybe, maybe, but when it comes to doubting our salvation, and again,

I'm not putting this on you. Thank you, Fatima. And you can't just say thank you to Fatima and not say, so I put up there beautifully said

Aaron Brewster. You can't just respond to that because the listening audience. Oh, sorry, the listeners, they don't know.

That's right. That's right. When people doubt their salvation, really, again,

I just, I mean, this is just a general statement. It's when we are looking to self instead of God.

When we are looking to God, when we know his promises that there's no sin that we can commit that would make it possible for us to lose our salvation or keep him from wanting to save us.

And yes, all of you people are thinking about the unpardonable sin. Just be quiet for a moment. God loves us and we don't add anything to our salvation.

It is fully 100 % totally of him. When we meditate on the truth, like Philippians chapter four tells us, think of these things.

We are overwhelmed with the amazingness of God and our issues and my struggles and our things fade into the background.

And it really is all a question of really our focus. Now, again, I'm not saying that you or I or anybody else doesn't have a legitimate physical handicap or struggle or pressure or stress in their life.

I'm not saying that at all. We're just talking about the things the Bible addresses. I want to give you an opportunity to respond if there's anything you want to say or anything you want to ask based off of what

I said. So I'm going to be quiet now. Well, OK, I guess. How should I?

You think I should go about it? You think I should ask God to help me see to have more confidence in him?

Or should we all need to do that? So, amen, sister. I mean, I mean, but when

I count what do you think I should do? Like should I just pray to God? Should I? What should

I do? So I would experiment like I did as an eight year old, just just trying to try something different.

But I definitely would not try to do it in your own power. I as an eight year old did it my own power. But yeah, I would definitely say any time there is something, um,

Danine just put in the comments, be in the word. So you want to fill your mind with God's truth so that when you find yourself, because what does the

Bible say? Your word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against you. Yeah. If I have a thought that what

I might be doing could be a sin, then I want to search for the things in scripture that are going to help inform my decision.

Uh, sometimes it's good to have it on a three by five card. If you find yourself counting a lot while you're in the bathroom or counting a lot when you're in the kitchen or something like that, put it up on something in that area so that you can see it and be reminded of it.

And then yes, then you can definitely try that. I'm not saying it's a, it's a cure or cure all it's a silver bullet, but I'm saying we take those steps.

We say, okay, God, here I am. I'm counting again. And I really don't know why I count. I feel better when

I count, but I do know that my ultimate pleasure and satisfaction is supposed to be in you. And I want to try not counting to your honor and glory.

So Holy spirit, please give me the strength that I need to do this. I'm looking at this verse and it's, it's reminding me of this truth.

So on and so forth. I'm rehearsing that and you're praying for a while. And you may find that, that, that draw in you to continue counting is still there.

That's doesn't say one thing. It doesn't say it worked or it didn't work. You know, it's just, just that's, that was the experience.

And you just keep trying. In itself is a sin. That's what I was worried about. We all teach our children to count cause it's good to know how to count.

So good on you for that. Um, but it all comes down to the like, cause remember this obedience requires, obedience requires four things for it to be biblical obedience.

I have to be doing the right thing in the right way. And here's the key for the right reason.

And only then can I do it in the right power, the power of the Holy spirit. If I'm not, if I'm doing the right thing, a good thing counting and I'm doing it in the right way,

I'm not skipping any numbers, but I'm not doing it for the right reason. God's ultimate glory whatsoever.

You do do all to the glory of God. If I'm not doing it for his glory, I am insane. And I'm definitely not doing it in the power of the

Holy spirit. So no counting itself is not inherently bad. Lots of things aren't inherently bad, but when we're doing it for our own glory, for our own pleasure with no thought to God, that does make it a sin.

So Melissa, Melissa says, uh, how should someone deal with, uh, oh no, that wrong one.

That was, let me get back to that one. Uh, where is it? Oh, here. She said, uh, instead of counting, maybe recite a

Bible verse and that is good. Right. We're saying Bible verse is, is always good.

I just say, it goes back to what Aaron just said. The reason like, so one of the things for me was when

I was dealing with the, what we call OCD, the, the, the feeling of, I had to like, if I touch something, sometimes a certain way,

I had to keep like rubbing something to have that feeling or to check a door lock. I had to ask myself, why am

I doing it? And there wasn't, there really like, like I'll give the example of the door lock.

There was not a rational reason for doing it. Okay. It was a feeling.

And I, I just had to recognize it's a feeling, but I didn't have to give into that feeling.

And I will say, and Aaron kind of said this as well earlier that the first time that I tried to resist that man, it was, it was like,

I thought I was going to go insane. I mean, I literally remember sitting at my desk with my hands holding onto the edge of the chair rest.

And like, I just want to go up and check the door. And I'm like, I'm fighting it for myself. And it was a while, but the next time it was less and less and less and less.

And now it's not a problem at all. Right. So there are certain things you can do that with.

And so so I hope that that helps. There's one more question.

Okay. You don't suggest anybody go off their medication. That's why

I was worried about people not doing that. Look, I'm not a medical doctor, but my, my thing is to never get off medication without your doctor's help.

A lot of these medications, because we, we said there is, there is this thing where medications can affect, or that's a physical thing, but it affects the mind, which is an immaterial thing.

And we don't know how that happens. So these things can not, I mean, I've seen people get in big trouble when they just go,

I want to get off the meds and they just stop. You cannot just stop some of these medications.

Some you can, some you can't. And so do not, and this is my counsel to everyone, do not get off medications without talking to your doctor.

Now I'm saying this as someone who completely violated that when it came to my blood pressure meds. All right.

My, my cardiologist was upset with me because I take this into my own hands. Right. But notice there's a big difference between the blood pressure medicine, which regulates, you know, the, the way your vessels work inside the bloodstream versus something that is affecting the mind.

Right. It's different. And because we don't understand, that's why I think some of these medications, that's why

I'm saying such against the medications is because we don't fully understand what they do. Now they could help, but they could hurt.

And that's the thing that, you know, I'm just, I'm against any medicine anyway. Okay. But I'm really not big on, on medication.

I prefer finding natural ways as I did with my blood pressure. My cardiologist flipped out when he found out that I wasn't taking any of the meds, but he was like, what in the world are you doing?

I'm taking potassium. Tell your patient, you know, my, my son -in -law's father's a medical doctor and he had high blood pressure.

He's now doing the same thing I'm doing. And he texted me, he was like, you should be a cardiologist. He's like, this has been great.

My blood pressure is down in two months. He's like, he's like, I'm telling everyone to do this. And so there's a big difference between the types of medication.

Right. And so like I did ask my, my doctor, can I cut the medication?

Well, how would that affect me? And, and he was like, well, if you're, if your blood pressure is not regulated, it's going to go up, but you know, like there's no, there weren't going to be other side effects, but not all medication is like that.

Okay. So I, I'm just saying all that to say, talk to your doctor first when it comes to that.

I'll come in here and I'll second everything he's saying. Don't, don't get off medication because anything that anybody says, here's what

I would encourage you to do. I would encourage you to go to a website called biblical counseling.

I always forget if it's a .com or .org. I think it's .com. I'm verifying. Yes. Biblicalcounseling .com.

That is the home of the association of certified biblical counselors. Well, maybe, yeah, but I know for sure it's got .com

and they have a place where you can find a counselor. Try to see if you can find a, an

ACBC certified biblical counselor, someplace in your area, or one who will meet with you online.

Because here's the thing with, sometimes we go to Facebook or we go to a situation like this and we'll ask a question, hoping for the answer.

But the reality is we can't give it to you. This takes time. This takes investigation. It takes study.

And so you find someone who can work with you, biblical kind of, again, I can't just put a stamp of approval on everyone in the association.

But still, you know, you're pretty good chances of finding somebody who understands your situation and understands what God's word says about it, who can help you work through.

And then maybe by God's grace, who knows? I don't know. Maybe in the future, one day with your doctor's help, you can taper off those and find that you can glorify

God without it. Maybe not because I don't know what particular physical issues you have, but I do know that by God's grace, you can grow from one degree of glory to another.

You can be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ and working with a biblical counselor, a

Christ honoring, a biblically minded, mature pastor, a discipler, these types of people can help you continue to grow.

And you know what? That's what I need. I just got back from an eight day men's discipleship retreat where I was in the group of guys being discipled because I need that.

We all need that. So don't so many of us were like, oh, you know, go for biblical counseling. My life's not an absolute dumpster fire.

It doesn't have to be. We need that in our lives. And it's always good to have both men and women on that thing.

Yes. Okay. Good. Cause I wouldn't try again. Yeah. Yeah, no, for sure. Yeah. That'd be great.

And I hope that people have experienced through me some of the insecurities, like I said, like people on materials usually are, are on social security.

So they have their whole lifestyle like to, um, to, uh, to through mental illness with it.

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I understand that I'm a similar, different, but similar situation, you know, because of the amount of money

I make, I've been on food stamps. I've been on other social services. And I know that when that change is made, what's funny is that in order to be kicked out of this much social services,

I only need to make about that much more money. So I understand what it's like to be like, oh, if I make that change,

I do get that. But remember who is our stronghold? Who was our refuge? Who was our shield?

Who was our rock? God is he owns the cattle on a thousand Hills and he can care for you and provide for you.

You don't need the government. You don't need the services. If that is as well for you. Yeah. Okay. This helped a lot of people just me discussing this and thank you for talking to me about it.

Thanks for coming on Melissa. Yeah. Well, it was just kind of in general.

Cause I know Andrew, you had mentioned, uh, physical issues, you know, like, uh, high blood pressure and things like that.

Uh, there's, there's things we don't think about that are actually medications to our body, natural medications in terms of helping with the physical, which can also help, uh, our mental and our, our brain cognition and things like that.

And that's, you know, diet, proper diet, how we eat. Um, and then even if it's just a little bit of exercise, right.

I'm not saying lift, you have to go out and lift weights, but even just walking, going out for a 20 minute walk, something like that, getting out in the sun, vitamin

D, um, is good for you. But, uh, your diet is really good.

When you start eating, you start, uh, changing your gut health and what, with what you're putting in your body.

And then even one of the things that Christians have gotten away from is fasting, right?

Fasting is when you fast, you actually allow your body to get rid of all the toxins and pollutants that you've been putting in it through all the junk food that we eat and the processed foods that we eat that are so readily available.

When we fast, we get to clean our body out and our body gets to actually heal itself.

And so if you ever notice, like why you get, when you get really, really sick, like you have a stomach virus that you just don't want to eat, right?

That's your body telling you it needs to repair itself. It needs to get out all of the bacteria and toxins and just, uh, everything that's not good for you so that it can begin to heal.

Uh, so fasting is one of those things that's really, really good for you. Yeah. And I would say doing, if you can, a multiple day fast is good.

Yeah. Try to talk to your doctor about that too. Yeah. Yeah. So that, that becomes an issue.

Yeah. And don't fast. Amy says, uh,

Melissa, you may need your medication for the rest of your earthly life, but you will be perfected in eternity.

Something you can all look forward to. And that's a good perspective to have with it. Um, and so, you know, and, and, uh,

Melissa, you're saying I'm fasting right now. It's great. I try to do a, you know, a two to three day fast weekly.

Um, no, I stopped doing the ice plunges because my, both doctors were like, no, but it's a thing that, you know, um, you know, here,

Jesse said, uh, most doctors are not taught to deal with the cause of illness. It appears they're taught to throw meds at it.

And that's the problem, right? And so a rude, just dealing with the center, right?

Like here's, here's some medication. It takes care of the problem. And so I think that's where we have to be careful.

Like, so it's not a matter of shopping around until you get a doctor to tell you what you want to hear. Some people do that, but we do want to, you know, we have to recognize that the doctors are also studying from a position of medicine.

Uh, they're, they're taught of how to prescribe things and they don't always think about how food affects things.

And that's why my cardiologist was shocked that I brought down my blood pressure and my cholesterol the way

I did. He, he just, he couldn't, but he was like, what are you doing? Um, now

Jason cave makes this mistake. He says, grapefruit for blood pressure. No, see, see,

I believe that grapefruit, that is the fruit that brought the sin into the world.

I hate grapefruit. I like grapefruit in things, but I hate grapefruit.

It tastes like sin. That's, that's what I say. I disagree on this because of one of the medications

I take. I can't even eat grapefruit. Yeah. But with the medications, like we were talking with vitamins and there's people that take lots of vitamin supplements and we're going to end with this.

Cause I want to get back to, I want to get to a w pink or pink Panther. Um, is, is this, we got to remember that, you know, when we, when we look at some of this stuff, okay, people take vitamins.

There was a whole bunch of things that I had people who said, you, you know, you take hibiscus tea and your blood pressure is going to go down.

It didn't for me. I had no effect. I tried so many things that people said they swore this would take care of it.

And, and yet it didn't work for me at all. And so I just kept looking.

Now, the thing is that we have to recognize that your vitamin supplements and stuff are general. They're generalities.

They're not specific to you. And you know, what I ended up doing, one of the things I did with, in my case was

I did a genetic test that would tell me my specific, you know, so they, they are, they basically gave me supplements that were designed based on my blood work and my genes.

Right. So it's specific. So it's like, okay, you need this much of this, this much of this, you know, so there's things like that, that would help more, but there's not a lot of doctors that do that.

Um, and so that becomes the issue, but Melissa, I thank you for coming in.

I'm going to put you backstage and we're, I want to bring in. So I am going to say this. I know we have gotten a ton of questions.

I want to get to them, but I want to make sure that we give Matt plenty of time.

So I'm going to announce now that we are going to go longer, uh, specifically as I do not want

Matt to feel that we're cutting him off. I want to make sure that we give him a chance to be heard. So for that reason, uh, and poor

Drew had all this stuff he was planning on saying tonight, and this is a great direction.

Yeah. We're this fantastic. Yeah. So Aaron Brewster is saying it's Andrew time.

Well, yeah, there's two Andrews. So, yeah. So Matt, I want to, I want to welcome you in.

Um, um, I purposely, uh, am not going to, uh, let the names be shown. Um, and I actually, maybe

I should just call you a W pink Panther, but I'm just going to call you by your first name. Uh, unless you want to give your last name that's up to you, but I just, because of the conversation,

I don't want anyone like trying to look you up or anything like that. So, uh, welcome to the show.

I want you to be able to, uh, share your, your, your view. And if you could,

I mean, I'd really be interested if you could try to, for you to explain what you think we're saying in my own life right now.

Am I able to hear me? Yeah, we hear you fine. Okay, good. So I think it's be good for a moment just to introduce myself.

My name is Matt Agen. I have no problem with my name being on live. Um, you know, anything

I say I'll stand behind it. So I just use the AW pink Panther there as a, uh, pseudonym because, you know,

I've been doing a lot of research with lately. And that's the reason that I have that pseudonym.

So, um, I think it's easiest for me because I haven't met the other two guys. And most of the comments

I have would be regarding the statements that MacArthur had made. So they're not going to be necessarily,

I missed the whole first half of this discussion. Um, Melissa had not the Melissa that was on here.

Another Melissa had given me the link. So she, she, um, told me you guys were live and I came in after,

I mean, I missed probably the first half of your discussion. So yeah, the first half we were doing in the news segment.

So we're just talking about Joe Biden and people who are, um, upset because, you know, they're, they don't think it's fair that they're hungry on a hunger strike.

And, and we, we talked about the fact that, you know, I, I, you know, there's some people who are trying to show their defiance and protest against, um, the overturning of Roe versus Wade by being celibate.

And I just said, that's a great campaign. We should encourage it. We should all encourage liberals to protest the overturning of Roe versus Wade by being celibate until marriage.

I, I, you know, so that's what you mean. That was the summary. So I guess, I mean, the, the two guys that you have on today, they seem to have views that differ quite a bit from what

MacArthur said. So most of my comments would be towards the statements he had made. Now, I know MacArthur's not here.

Sure. But I mean, I transcribed the first 12 and a half minutes of what he said, so I can quote him verbatim on that.

Okay. Um, so, but I, I just, I just want to make sure that we're clear that my disagreement is with his comments saying that, um,

ADHD is not a physical impairment and that it has no connection to a physical deficiency in the brain of any kind.

So that, that's the actual, um, target and focus of what I have to, you know, my disagreement.

I'm just going to stop there and say, just say, I can't speak to that because that's not what I heard. That's not the clip that, that I played.

And I, I, I can read it real quick. If you, if you give me just a second, I can, I've got it right here.

So it says he lists off, um, the brain diseases, um, infections, tumors, masses, brain trauma, concussion, brain injury, birth defects.

And then he says, um, those can be discerned. They can be seen. Those can be understood. They can be objectively identified.

Then he says, they, um, they can be seen in a cat scan or an MRI, right. Or an x -ray sometimes or surgical procedures.

This is a quote from MacArthur about those forms of, um, brain issues. But then he adds, that's not the case with mental illness.

Mental illness is a term that is really not identifiable by any objective means. You can't see it in an

MRI or an x -ray or a cat scan or surgery. You can do brain surgery and you're not going to see schizophrenia.

This is a misnomer. So essentially, you know, what he does is he outlines all the things that he says he would say are physical deficiencies in the brain.

But then whenever it comes to things like ADHD, OCD, and PTSD, which I can't speak on any of them, like really just autism and ADHD would be the two that I would speak on.

But he says, um, um, that they can't be identified in any kind of physical means.

So I guess I would have to ask the panelists. Well, I guess I would have to ask the panelists or in you, if you agree with him, whenever he says, um, there's no such thing as ADHD, attention, hyper -deficit, hyperactivity disorder, that's something that's embedded in the brain.

Okay. I want to make sure I'm clear. Do you believe that ADHD, ADD, OCD, PSTD, do you believe those are physical things or are those mental things?

Uh, well, I can't speak on a lot of them. I haven't done any research, but so for the

ADHD and for, um, autism, which are, um, very closely related, uh,

I would say that is definitely a physical thing. So, and, you know, MacArthur says, may

I respond to that? Do you mind Matt? Yeah. I just want to add the one point here. This is like the exclamation point on his statements.

He said, uh, this is not to say that people don't have problems. It is to say they have problems, but they're not connected to some mental deficiency.

So that his explicit statement is that ADHD is not connected to some mental deficiency.

So, and so I know, um, Andrew has said several times that MacArthur didn't say that and has repeatedly said that he didn't say that.

So I just want to come out and just give the exact point that he definitely said that. Before you say something,

Aaron, this is the problem that I have with you, Matt, because when you say, I, I, you start talking about these 12 minutes and I said,

I cannot speak to that because I didn't hear that part. And now you're telling me that I have,

I've told you the very opposite from what I just said.

You could actually go back just a few minutes. Yeah, exactly. We can. And it's on there, man. You did say that, but you,

I mean, you denied that, you know, MacArthur said that. So that's fine. We'll look at it. It doesn't matter. We don't need to argue for sure.

Cause it's, it's there. It's there. All right. Okay. This is, I'm not sure if you were on when I said that I pulled out my, my copy of the diagnosis, diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders, fifth edition text revision.

All right. So as far as I know, this is the newest, most up -to -date DSM five that is available. I have to double check that someone will probably correct me in the comments.

Anyway, it's really close. Um, I'm deficit and hyperactivity disorder page.

All right. And they give a list of diagnostic criteria and in this list of diagnostic criteria, there are two things, um, that, well, okay.

There are, there are much. So for example, the first one is a persistent pattern of inattention and or hyperactivity impulsivity, right?

So if you're going to diagnose ADHD, you're looking for inattention, looking for hyperactivity, you're looking for impulsivity, right?

Those are the main ones. This whole section and this whole section is dedicated to that. They've got some other ones in here, several inattentive or hyperactive impulsive symptoms.

And they keep, they keep mentioning over and over again. There is clear evidence that the symptoms interfere with or reduce the quality of social, academic, and occupational functioning.

So then they build on that and they say, okay, it now it's qualitative. You know, are they impulsive and are they, um, inattentive to the degree that it affects their relationships?

All right. So basically it's those two things on the next page. And this is interesting. Um, I'm going to find it real quick while you're looking for that.

Just to clarify, you are speaking from the diagnosis process in psychiatry and psychology, correct?

Well, this is also informed by the medical, by the medical profession as well. This is not just psychiatry and psychology.

This is, this has got the entire backing of the medical profession on it. Now, here's the thing. Diagnostic markers.

Listen very carefully. No biological marker is diagnostic for ADHD.

They're saying it right here. You cannot do any brain scans, blood tests, urine tests, spinal taps.

You cannot do any of that to say that a person has ADHD. The only way that you're going to be able to diagnose it is by looking at their behavior and concluding whether they're inattentive, hyperactive, so on and so forth.

And to the degree to which that affects their lives. Is that the exact thing that MacArthur said? It sounds like it.

Can I, can I respond to that real quick? Sure. Yeah. Okay. So whenever it comes to ADHD and autism, they're, um, they're both neurodevelopmental disorders.

They're both, um, uh, neurological disorders. They can both be seen on neuroimaging and brain scans.

Um, they both have reduced brain volume that they can identify physically within the brain, cortical thickness, prefrontal cortex abnormalities, um, anterior, um, cingulate cortex.

The basal ganglia is misshapen and that is, um, specifically to do with motor control and behavioral regulation.

Um, the corpus callosum is reduced in size, structural anomalies, um, there, right.

That have to do with hemispheric communication. The amygdala is, um, damaged or is not the same.

These are, I mean, I've got a list of 20 different. Are you saying, are you saying that the DM, the

D the DMS five is wrong? I'm saying,

I'm not looking at anything from the DSM five at all. I'm looking at specific, um, information that has to do with the physical impairment.

Wait, wait, can I just finish my sentence here? That has to do with neuroscience and neuroscientists and PhDs from the medical field.

So the people that they use their information to make the book you're reading, those people have all of the physical empirical data to prove that ADHD is 100%.

I'm going to jump in before Andrew, because we have to be really careful. I just want,

I don't know you. I want to encourage you. Okay. I appreciate your fervor. I appreciate the intelligence with which you're communicating, but you have to be very careful when you make these, these, these total, especially if you're not dealing, if you're dealing with the, like the, the concrete evidence of God's word be as 100 % as you want to be with it.

But you're, you're speaking with a level of confidence you have to be careful of. All right. Okay. So let me explain this. Why? Well, hold on, hold on one second, because I want to,

I want to read this. All right. Because you're, you're making claims about this that are untrue and potentially just because you don't know, but you're speaking as if you do.

So I told you, I don't look at the DSM. I'm looking at neuroscience. I understand that. But so is the DSM. So is the

DSM. Listen very carefully. It's the paragraph I didn't read. Although some neuroimaging studies have shown differences in children with ADHD compared with control subjects, meta analysis of all neuroimaging studies do not show differences between individuals with ADHD and control subjects.

And let me just say something to you really quickly about those medical studies that are being done. And this is a huge topic and I can point you to some resources that can be very helpful for you from the association of certified biblical counselors.

But just because a study comes to a conclusion and says a thing, doesn't mean that that's what it is because you'll oftentimes be able to find a study that patently disagrees with it by people of the same medical caliber.

Okay. This, this looks at it from all of the information. Okay. And it specifically says that here, meta analysis, and it has it in italics.

All neuroimaging studies do not show differences between individuals with ADHD and control subjects.

So just be careful how confident. Or we shouldn't trust that book because it's hard to tell if you're saying we should trust that book or we shouldn't trust it.

I'm going to tell you that psychiatrists and psychologists and medical professionals are fantastic at making observations.

They're not fantastic when it comes to trying to diagnose the why the observation exists or the cure for the observation.

So when it comes to making an observation, when they said they looked at all the neuroimaging that they had and they were able to say, okay, this one, this one, this one, not for this one, not for this one.

And they came to the conclusion that the neuroimaging was inconclusive because there was, they couldn't say, trust me, these people want nothing more than to say there is a definitive biological reason for ADHD, but they couldn't do it.

Give me a moment because you're painting a narrative right now that says, you know, like I'm on the fringe here whenever I never said that.

Let me explain what guys, you got to give me a chance to talk. I know there's three of you, but just give me a second.

Um, so whenever you've got something and you're saying, Hey, you know, you can't trust in, you know, just particular test or, you know, this particular image scan and things like that, right?

This is your kind of argument that you're making. But the, the issue is, is a worldwide consensus that this is a physical disorder.

This is worldwide. You to say that it's not a consensus is to deny the worldwide consensus of medical science.

There's that confidence again, that it's not true. Let me explain. You're also speaking on something that's not in the

Bible. And then you're having a level of confidence as if you've got the authority. So you're still looking at the very thing that you're accusing me of.

Matt, Matt, I want, I want to take what you said and I'm doing this to help you because I, I believe you have,

I'm saying, trying to say this respectfully, I believe you have a blind spot. You are suffering from a confirmation bias.

You look at what you want to hear. You're reading back to me what I told you in text already. Like, this is what

I've told you about the things you were doing and you're saying it back to me. Like I told you, you have the confirmation bias and this is the echo chamber of ACBC.

Are you going to, or is it just your key?

Cause you've cut me off many times and I, you, you keep accusing me of cutting you off, but every time

I start talking, you jump in, you go back and listen. You've not let me finish a sentence yet.

You didn't start talking until just now. And there we go. So I don't want to have to mute you to finish a sentence.

So please don't make me do that. You just made the claim worldwide consensus, correct?

Yes, that's correct. Okay. Is the DSM considered part of worldwide consensus?

You keep asking me about the DSM when I've told you I've never even looked at the DSM. It doesn't matter. Is it part of the worldwide consensus?

It's a simple thing. It has nothing to do whether you studied or not. Is it a medical journal that all medical people look to for medical consensus?

I don't, how would I know the answer to that? I just told you. The answer is yes, because that's the purpose of the, of the, this document.

That is the very purpose of it. So the fact that the worldwide consensus is the

DSM and it disagrees with you. That's, that's not true because what

I'm talking about is neuroscientific medical data. Like whenever there's going through charts and graphs, you're talking about people that are reading diagnostic information on off of a chart and graph.

Matt, I want you to engage with what I'm actually saying. Can I finish my sentence too? Cause I, you know, I'll let you ask me a question and go with that narrative, but I would also like to have an opportunity to explain what

I'm trying to tell you. Matt, do you mind if I answer the question you just asked?

What was the question I just asked? Whether or not you can continue. Here's the thing.

There's a, there's a thing hanging up on my wall. I'm not going to, I'm not going to bring it closer for everyone to look at, but in order to have communication that actually works.

Okay. Well, there has to be a foundation worth of truth. If I say to you and Matt, I don't know what your favorite color is.

I don't know what your favorite foods are, but if I start describing you to somebody using all of the wrong descriptions,

I'm not describing you. That's a pointless conversation. A person who knows you would be wise to say, Hey, Aaron, stop.

You're not even talking about Matt. I don't know what you're talking about, but you're trying to convince this person that Matt is like this and that's not him.

Okay. So please understand that when you say something that is factually untrue, you're speaking, like I said earlier, you speak a lot of confidence about something and you're speaking these overarching terms that are because the

DSM five disagrees with what you said. Therefore, there can't be worldwide consensus.

The proof, the existence of this book and what I just read to you that you heard me read, you cannot say there's worldwide consensus because there's clearly not.

Let me ask you to do something. That's all. That's all we're saying. That's all I'm saying is to be careful that you, what you say is true, because if what you're saying is not true, we can't move forward and have a legitimate conversation.

And this is, I just want you guys to bring it down a notch real quick and be, you know,

I don't want to be so combative with you guys. Let's just bring it down a couple of notches. Yeah. So deep breath.

Yeah. So Matt, I just want to, I want to say something to you. Aaron is Aaron's first communication with you, right?

Okay. Well, there's a little bit of commenting in the, yeah. Yeah. But tonight. So in the short time that Aaron has been conversing with you, he just said the same thing that I said to you in private texts or private messages.

Okay. So I want you to notice something. Two people in a short period of time are recognizing the same thing that you're doing.

Two people that agree with the same lie that ADHD isn't a physical reality. So, I mean, I understand that you guys.

Okay. So if we don't agree with you, we're lying. No anybody.

And this is what I want the audience to do. Everybody go to your, go to your AI, your chat

GPT. And I want you to type in there. What are the physical proofs for ADHD if it's brain or not?

And this pulls information from the entire internet. And it repeatedly puts out the information that it is a worldwide consensus, that this is not a spiritual issue.

The behaviors you can't sit here and say every single behavior that comes through is, is a result of somebody's spiritual corruption and has nothing to do with their brain.

I want to, before you two answer, I'm going to, I'm going to address this one. So when you're going to talk about chat

GPT and you want to ask if it's spiritual, right? Cause now you're the one bringing the spiritual thing in.

We will mock it. You can't just mock it. That's ad hominem. You can't, I mean, you need to review what it's saying and not just say that God doesn't exist.

All right. I'm, I'm muting you to finish a sentence. I hate doing it, but I have to.

Okay. This is my area of expertise, AI. It's what I got 36 years doing.

Okay. So it is my expertise. I do know a thing or two about this, Matt, chat

GPT is biased. You, you brought up something new that we haven't been discussing and you're saying it's a lie.

None of us talked about it being spiritual. We talked about it being an issue of the mind and body.

That's the wording that we used. So you're calling saying that we believe in a lie and your evidence is chat

GPT, which is biased. Okay. Everyone is biased, but the thing that you want to keep avoiding, you made the statement, it is a worldwide consensus.

And Aaron just gave you something that is part of the worldwide consensus that disagrees.

And the reality is, is when we look at it, the, the, whether you read it or not, the purpose of the, the

DS, uh, DMF DSM, DSM five, the purpose of that is for medical professionals to make diagnosis.

And so that is the purpose of the book. That is what they do the research for.

So this is what doctors use to make diagnosis.

So when you say this is the worldwide consensus, you start with that and you're not letting anything, even the very document that is designed for giving diagnosis, you're rejecting that.

Can I, can I say something now? Yeah. When I'm done, because when I'm done, okay.

All right. Because what you're doing and I'm Matt, I'm saying this because I care about you and I love you.

I I've heard your messages. I know the struggle you have had. Okay. I get it, but I want to see you grow.

This has nothing to do with the discussion we're having now. Okay. Because what you're doing is going to hurt you in a lot of other areas as well.

You're, you're latching onto something and you're seeing everything through that. And so it's like you're rejecting everything that's being said by Aaron to you because he has this book that disagrees with something that you want to believe.

And you're saying it's, it's law. It is illogical. It's an, it is not.

So once we know that it's not logically valid, we know it's wrong. Let me ask you this because you've got kind of a filibuster going on and I feel like you're putting so much in there that I don't have any opportunity to really defend myself.

So I just would like an opportunity to say something in retort. So you made the claim that this information, you know, you can't use chat

GPT, but you don't agree that you said that it's biased, but you haven't proven that it's biased.

Give me a second, man. I just let you speak for like three, four minutes straight.

I just want to get a phrase out, you know? Um, so you, you're making the claim that this is somehow corrupted information or that it's or that it's, you know, but you're insinuating that it's biased in some way that you can't.

Okay. But listen, you haven't proven that you're just making a dry assertion. No, no, no. Chat GPT says they're biased.

There's actually a way to get it in an unbiased mode. Hold on, Andrew. Can I read this? I'm not attacking you personally.

I just put this into chat GPT and I asked, is chat GPT biased?

And here's what chat GPT said. Chat GPT, like any AI language model can exhibit biases due to the data it was trained on.

These biases can stem from a variety of sources, training data, reinforce, uh, reinforcement learning, algorithmic design.

So yes, it, yeah. Chat GPT says it can be biased. Let me give everyone -

But it's not saying that it's giving you false information. It's telling a difference. Yeah.

That's actually what, what, what it is saying. It can be biased because of the specific data it was trained on.

So if I only train my AI to look at certain data, then it's only going to give me that data.

Matt, if you go ask AI what 1 .1 and it says it's 2, then all of a sudden you're just discredited by ad hominem.

Matt, hold on, hold on. Matt, do an experiment. I want you to type into chat

GPT to try this. Chat GPT, give me five reasons to vote for Joe Biden and then say, give me five reasons to vote for, for Donald Trump.

I've done this. It gave me five reasons to vote for, for Joe Biden. And for Joe, for Donald Trump, it said, we can't get into politics.

Let me explain something. The level of fallacies here, the one, I'm not saying that chat - This is not a fallacy. I just gave you the one you could do.

How about you all talk at once? Listen for one second, would you? I wish you would. I really wish you would.

This is the thing that you do, man. Just give me a second here. I've looked at multiple different sources for the past 32 years.

I have plenty of information when it comes to this. Chat GPT is not my only source of information. So what

I'm trying to say here is that you guys, first of all, we're way off the topic. The topic was, first of all,

I don't know what these other two guys over here, what they even truly have their stance is. It seems like they're acknowledging the physical reality.

So I don't know what they're all riled up about because it really, that's not my beef. My beef isn't against people that admit that this is a physical reality.

But you accused us of not believing that. You accused all of us of that. And yet now you say you don't believe the positions.

I got the last three or four, man, you've got three or four videos in a row where you're, or the last couple of videos that you've had,

Andrew, where you've come out directly denying that MacArthur said this wasn't a physical deficiency in the brain.

You said it over and over and over. And then you're lying now saying that you didn't say it. Okay. Then, okay, folks, here's the thing,

Matt, you accused me of lying. Yes, I did. I want you to give me the exact point stamp that I said exactly what you just said.

And I'm so much sure of it that I've been talking to some friends. I'm thinking about starting my own YouTube channel and I'm going to take little clips of where you say one thing and then you come back later and you, and you lie about it.

I don't, I don't know if it's a debate tactic. Because what you did is you, you added something that you take what

I do say and you add words to it. Okay. And then you say that that's what

I feel like I'm talking to a politician right now, man, you were working in pivoting. So that's actually what an ad hominem actually is, but that's good.

So, you know what these things are and you practice them and then, but you project your behavior on others. I'm not trying to debate

James White here, man. I'm trying to have a talk with you, but you got your apologetic machine guns up at me. So I just want you to bring it down.

What I have is a concern for you. That is that it's a false concern because you're basing it on the premise of a lie.

Right. Let me jump in here real quick. One more sentence out here.

Whenever they come out and they try to tell you that this has to do with the sufficiency of scripture, whenever it's so far removed from the

Bible, this issue is a topic of neuroscience. And so what you're getting are people gaslighting others and telling them that has something to do with the sufficiency of scripture.

It's the same as to say Down syndrome, palsy, Alzheimer's, dementia, any one of these other diseases that they don't exist, that has absolutely nothing to do with the sufficiency of scripture.

But what you're trying to say is mind over matter or spirit over matter. So you're trying to say, look, if you could just repent enough, then you won't have the

ADHD because it's a sin issue, right? You're going to repent away from this. But you can't remove this physical thing any more than Justin Peters can remove his cerebral palsy by repenting.

Matt, I'm doing the same thing. Matt, you are a perject, Matt. Both of these are physical realities.

And the fact that you guys are combative over the issue is evidence that you do deny the fact that it's a physical reality.

This is why you're not. This is the proof that you're not listening. Oh, my gosh. We have all.

You know, there's like a million people that disagree with you guys. OK, I'm muting you, Matt, because you will not let anyone speak.

Matt, I'm muting you. Even people are asking me to mute you. It sounds a little bit like what

I predicted. I'm just throwing that out there. Now, Matt, listen, listen. Well, I'm sure you can manufacture what you. All right, I've muted.

This is what we're talking about. This is what we're talking about manufacturing, Matt. You have put you have spoken words and claimed that we have said them.

That we have categorically said, yes, you did. You said, I don't know about these two guys, but it sounds like they're doing this.

And you're talking about forgiveness and all this other stuff. And and I specifically said to you in the chat that I completely disagree that being that walk, not being able to walk is not a sin.

But here's the thing. Disobedience is a sin. Disobedience is a sin.

What the Bible says that children need to obey their parents. And then a child doesn't obey their parents.

Do you think an autistic kid. Are we talking about autistic children? ADHD and autism are in the exact same genetic realm.

They're the same. That is not. It is true. Yes, it is. This is because if every child with ADHD would be put onto the autistic spectrum and every child with autism would be would somehow exhibit

ADHD. If you go to my Facebook right now, I have the 20 physical exact similarities listed between ADHD and autism.

You're you're lying to your. What's your source? What's your source? I show

Adams, Adams and Robert D. Smith. No, no. It was a medical journal.

Yeah. And these are the only people who are allowed to diagnose ADHD. Your medical doctor is not allowed to.

And what are the neuroscientist is not allowed to. These are the only people allowed to diagnose ADHD. And what is your source?

And they diagnose it off the behavior. What is it? So how do you know that two people that have the same behavior?

One of them has a physical impairment and the other one doesn't. That's a fantastic question. They don't know. Yeah, but they specifically said you don't know either.

And that doesn't work. Matt, you're being muted again. And if you continue this, Matt, we're muting you until you can be respectful.

OK, and if you're going to continue with this, then we're going to have to block you. Just just like I told out a lie and then you want to block me.

So it's not a lie. You did lie. The I got out a lie and you keep denying it.

Yeah, I mean, I guess we're then we're just going to say I tell you to repeat it. You tell me to repeat it.

I call you a liar. The difference is anybody listening, Matt, anybody listening knows that.

No, no, that's not true. You have an audience of 26 people on. OK, I just I'm going to keep muting you or block you if that's not anybody listening.

There's a million people that disagree with you. OK, there's also a million. Actually, there's billions of people who are going to hell.

And they're all PhDs. Who cares if they disagree? There are PhDs in neuroscience who are going to hell.

The fact that I disagree with the person doesn't inherently make them right. All right. So I just what makes them right is the truth,

Matt. And we are trying to find the truth. Do you honestly believe that just because there are people who disagree with you because there's a bunch of people out there who disagree with you about things that you believe to be true, does that mean they're right?

I mean, are we going to say that that volume, that numbers might makes right?

Is that what we're going to argue? Is that the basis for your argumentation? Please, Matt, be consistent,

Matt, because that's what's ridiculous. No one we tell children that it doesn't matter how many kids are stand up and you do what's right.

And now you're telling me you're basically telling me that because all these people agree, I need to just bow to their collective understanding.

Come on, man. Come on. You can do better than this. I believe in you. OK, so. This is just a thing for Drew.

So, Drew, so we know for the future, what I did was I went into the his the three dots there to edit and I just.

Take the automatic adjust volume. I put it down to zero so he can unmute himself all day long.

Oh, gotcha. We can completely control his his rude behavior and, you know, everything he's projecting on us claiming we're doing what he's doing.

So let me let me get in here real quick, just because they say one thing really quickly. At least it's true.

Just I want people because I'm getting private messages. Someone just sent me said, I'm watching you live and I admire how you handle this man.

All right. He he would disagree with that. Here's the thing. My challenge and I have challenged him with this.

You guys heard this several times. You give me the exact timestamps where I said the things he accused me of saying.

He has claimed things that both Drew and Aaron supposedly said all three of us deny.

We did not. So he says, oh, we're lying about our denial. Then he should be able to later produce the exact timestamps and give it to us and show us where we said the exact wording that he said we said because we were really clear.

And this is what we started the show with. And I begged everybody, listen to what we're actually saying, because this is what

I was afraid of, because there are people that are so emotional about this that and I get it.

I understand. And he studied this for many, many years. And I'm not denying his study. He's done OK. But any of us could be wrong, myself included, if we reject.

Evidence that is like when we say we make statements that are illogical, we say that the world consensus, therefore, this has to be right.

Well, all of German's consensus agreed to kill Jews. Should we do that? Is that make it right?

Because there's consent? Of course not. And the thing is that we're we made it clear that there's a difference between physical ailments and mental ailments.

We made that clear. But every time we're talking about these mental things, things of the mind, he's going, well, you're saying that Justin Peters can't walk.

He's in sin for not walking. We said that's not the case over and over and over.

And then he says, that's the case that we're making. It's so the point is, is anyone can go back.

And the reason because I know each of us are trying to talk, but, you know, it's frustrating and I get it and forgive me,

Matt, forgive me, audience, if I seem that I'm frustrated, but it is hard to communicate with someone who refuses to actually listen to what you're saying.

I hear what he's saying. I understand his argument. What he doesn't realize is he's making the argument that we're making and then telling us that we're believing a lie.

He, you know, we all, all three of us have said that we believe there is, and we didn't use the word spiritual.

So with, for the Jack TPT, we talked about the mind and the body. And we said that there are things in the physical that affect the immaterial, the mind.

And there's things in the mind that affect the physical, the body. We all said that we believe that he said, we said that doesn't exist.

Those two can't be the same. That's all I'm trying to say. So we can, we can actually test this and go back and he can find the exact timeframes where we said it.

And we'll see if he does that. Drew, go ahead. And then we'll bring him back in. Yeah. So one of the things, uh, immediately that just, uh, uh, caught my attention in this exchange was when

Aaron asked for his source for his information and then he turned it back on Aaron and Aaron said, well, here is my source that he already read from.

And then he, but he doesn't want to give his sources. Um, well then, you know, okay.

Why should I, why should I listen to you then? Or when you tell me to go and now

I'm speaking here, let me just, because I spend most of my time listening than speaking so that I can kind of speak into these things.

What I'm hearing when someone tells me to go to chat

GPT, to look up a definition of something immediately, my thought is now

I definitely don't need to listen to what you have to say or Wikipedia, that's even worse or Wikipedia, or even, or even when

I type in the very question, he wants, uh, uh, the very question on chat

GPT about if it is biased and it confirms that it is, which is what

I said when I said it's it's they admit their bias, right? It's actually programmed in and we know what that program is because they've put it out there.

It's public, right? And so, so these are things that I'm listening to, and then

I'm hearing things like ADHD, autism being compared to dementia and Alzheimer's, which are not the same because eight dementia and Alzheimer's is something that, and those are things that I've seen in my life, um, personally.

And it's, it's heartbreaking to see because someone, you know, uh, who has had a functioning mind, you see that mind deteriorate.

Um, and so that's not the same thing as ADHD or, or autism, um, or a physical impairment such as, uh, cerebral palsy.

That is not the same thing. And so you're trying to compare apples and oranges and you're trying to not even compare apples and oranges that are in the same, uh, field.

They're, they're in completely different parts of the country that you're trying to compare them. Um, and so my question to Matt, as someone who has been listening this whole time, and then also saying, well, there's a million people that disagree with you.

My first, my first response to that is so what I don't care if a million people disagree with me or not.

I don't live my life based on what a million other people think. And I think Aaron brought out that point in the fact that there's millions of people who are

PhDs that deny Christ. So what if they disagree with me?

They need Christ because, and I'm, and Matt, I'm sure you would, you would agree that they need

Christ as well, but just because a million people who have PhDs and who have studied whatever, does that make, does that make them right in the area of knowing

Christ? No. Um, so just cause people disagree with, with my position,

I, I don't really care about that. But, um, my question to you,

Matt, as someone who has been listening to this exchange the whole time, given that you haven't given any of your sources, um, that you've told us to ask unreliable, uh, artificial intelligence databases, what, why should

I listen to what you have to say? Okay. So let me just say something about the unreliable part. So what we, when we do deal with genitive

AI, uh, AI has been around for a while, what we're talking now is this AI that is based off of large language models.

Um, there is a thing that we call hallucinations. Okay. That's the term that we've given toward, toward it.

It's the idea that based on the models, they, they come up with things that are not accurate. Okay.

There was a court case, actually, it was really kind of funny. Some guy used chat GBT for a court case, a lawyer, and it made up a case and he used it in court and the judge actually threw it out of court.

And I, I think they might've disbarred the guy because he didn't check the resource, but he claimed a court case that wasn't true.

So now I want to, I know Aaron, you want to say something, um, but I just want to point something out to Matt as well.

So you got the question, what is your sources? But I want you to notice Aaron in just a few moments said the same thing that I told you privately.

And now Drew is saying the same that you are doing. You're mixing apples and oranges.

I told you, you have a category error. So when you start seeing a number of people who in a short period of time keep noticing the same thing about you and keep bringing that up, instead of saying everyone's wrong because they believe a lie, maybe they're right.

I mean, we care about you. That's why we're telling you. Okay. So I'm going to go with Aaron and then we're bringing

Matt back in. I know Matt, you might, by the way, I thank you that you're still on here. I appreciate that you haven't logged off yet.

Um, I, I know that a lot of things are just presented. And as you said earlier, sometimes it's really hard just even with one person bringing up a bunch of different stuff.

Okay. I don't want to mix the pot here, but I want to just, I want to present something that is just, just a simple example of where yours and my, just the two of our communication is struggling and breaking down why it's making it very difficult for me to listen to you.

Okay. According to the Cleveland Clinic, who has locations in Abu Dhabi, Canada, Florida, London, Nevada, and Ohio.

Okay. So they get around, they're a thing. Okay. In an article about attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, where by the way, they argue all of the same points that you're making, they say here that ADHD and in many different ways, that is a neurodevelopmental disorder.

Okay. So they argue your points. However, when asked the question, they put it in a question answer form, uh, toward the end of their article, is

ADHD a form of autism? The Cleveland Clinic, clinic categorically says, no,

ADHD isn't on the autism spectrum. Now the very next sentence is, but autism spectrum disorder and ADHD are both neurodevelopmental disorders.

They share some of the same symptoms, blah, blah, blah. Right. But they specifically say, no, ADHD is not on the spectrum, the autism spectrum.

So it's one thing to say, my source says that it is. It's one thing to say that I found 50 sources that says that it is, but to tell, to look at somebody in the face and say, your argument doesn't, you don't get to have your argument which

I can't, you didn't, you didn't use those words, but basically, you know, worldwide consensus. You're the only people who think this is wrong because somebody who believes that ADHD is exactly what you say it is categorically, these medical professionals, and I can give you like,

I'll put the link in the, this in the comment. If that will make everybody happy category. Oh, so, you know what?

I'm not allowed to put links in. I think I can. Yeah. Let's see if I put it in there.

There we go. Put it in the private chat. Anyway, so, so, so just, if you, when you come back on, you probably have a lot of thoughts going through your mind and obviously you can talk about whatever you want.

I can't control you, but I would just encourage you just to interact with that one thing. Can you see what I'm saying? When you make these sweeping generalities that aren't true, it makes it impossible to have a truthful conversation with you because what you said was false and we can't move forward on your premise because it's false.

And Aaron, that's the exact same thing that I said to him before I said I was ignoring him and eventually blocking him.

So Matt, the floor is yours. All right. So can you hear me?

Yes. Okay. So first of all, I just want to say it's tough getting filibustered by three people in a row, but well, it's fine.

And I understand that we're both entering into this. All four of us are entering into this discussion with different presuppositions, right?

You guys are presupposing that ADHD is not a physical impairment. We didn't say that.

Wait, wait, wait. I'm just correcting it. We emphatically disagree with that.

So you're saying ADHD is a physical impairment? We said that there is a effect that the mind and body have on each other.

Wait, that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking you because he said that, okay, here, let me give me a chance to just say something real quick.

So you've got the claim that when I bring up all of these other dementia,

Alzheimer's, Down syndrome, and all these things, that that is somehow different than ADHD or palsy even, right?

And the reason I'm, and let me explain why I bring those other things into the discussion. Okay. Because when you have a degenerative brain disorder or anything that's neurological that's happening in your brain, the reason

I'm pointing those out is it manifests itself in a person's behavior, right? So in the similarities, the reason they're the same is because ADHD is also a physical brain impairment that manifests itself in a person's behavior.

Okay. So whether or not autism and ADHD there,

I would never claim that ADHD is on the autistic spectrum. That's not what I'm saying. I was, I was, what

I'm saying is the next sentence that you said, when you were quoting from that manual was that it, they're both neuro biological.

They're both neuro developmental. They're both physical ailments in the brain.

They're both genetic. They both have the exact same or the exact genes isolated, which this is a hereditary disease of the brain.

This has, you know, and neurons, they're, they're, those are physical things. You agree with that, right? Like neurons are physical, right?

You don't, you don't deny the physicality of neurons, right? Can you, can you explain how the physical and immaterial work together?

Yeah. Yes. Okay. So whenever you're, whenever you say, okay, take somebody that's gotten a frontal lobe lobotomy, you slice the sliver off their brain.

Do they act different? Does their behavior, personality, and character change at that point? I mean, you've got people that are serial killers that turn into, you know, the most domesticated, you know, kind of people.

You're asking the question, do, would you like an answer? Yeah. I mean, you didn't answer my question, but you didn't answer my question either, but yeah.

Um, okay. So the answer to your question is, do they act different potentially sometimes, but here's the, here's the question

I have for you. Why do they act different? This is the old chicken or the egg argument in the medical and psychiatric sciences.

Okay. And Aaron, this is why I brought up the epigenetics.

Exactly. Yeah. So yes, a hundred percent. This, this is clearly proven through epigenetics. It's also proven through a lot of experiential data.

The fact that oftentimes a person's choices actually because of plasticity of the brain, because of lots of other things actually has a physiological effect.

I made the statement, I believe, I thought I was talking on this show, maybe it was another show that my grandmother literally killed herself because she had a spirit.

She was a spiritual sin issue that had an effect on her physical body. You cannot, because nobody was there at the

Genesis of it. Nobody can go back in time and say, did the sin come before the physical issue or did the physical issue come before the sin?

Nobody can do that. So to make a claim that any one person categorically knows which one came first, the chicken or the egg in this particular situation, they're, they're foolish because they don't know they're coming.

Like you said, with a presupposition. So the answer is yes, their behavior sometimes changes, but the question is, why does it change?

Okay. So can I, can I respond to that? Yes. It gets a little tough, but for me,

I hope you understand when there's three people who disagree with my position and, and, and so the optics of this, and especially when, you know,

Andrew, and this is funny, I mean, it works great whenever we're all in agreement because most of the time I'm in agreement with everything that Andrew has to say theologically.

So, but when you post the comments of, you know, just the people that have said things that disagree with me and stuff, the optics of it on here, it's hard for me.

I do have a form of autism and ADHD, right? So it's tough when you got three people that are coming at you and getting you charged up and interrupting and then disagreeing it.

And the confrontational emotional regulation part of it is difficult for me. Does that mean that I'm going to want to jump into sin?

No, but it does make it 10 times harder sometimes to try to have a clear discussion and not to, and not to get riled up.

May I speak to that briefly for a moment? Sure.

Okay. I want you to go back and listen to the beginning and I want you to see that you were the one, it doesn't matter if there's three of us, you were the one that created a confrontation, confrontationally.

Okay. You kept interrupting. You kept speaking over and we would, you'd say, we say things and yes, we did interrupt to cut you off to say, we didn't say that.

We've done that multiple times and you ignore that and go on. We ask you things and you ignore answering our question and just go on.

Before we escalate this, because I'm a security officer, just to give you my profession, deescalation is something

I do on a daily basis. So I want to deescalate. And I just want to remind you that prior to getting into this discussion, you had the jokes about, you misunderstood what

I was trying to say about the child raising his hand and need to use the restroom.

And then you went with all the jokes about the pillows and all that stuff. So you kind of - Well, I did take that and I did use that as a transition.

It wasn't to mock you. So if you took that as mocking, please forgive me. Okay. You're forgiven. No problem.

You know, like it's water off a duck's back. How did we misunderstand? How did we misunderstand your comment? I mean, I'm asking you,

I've asked you a number of questions and you haven't answered any of them. So I'm curious if you're going to answer this one. How did we misunderstand the urinary tract?

Yeah, I'll explain it. So I only have so many characters to type in and it's a previous thing.

With the way I articulate things, sometimes I need to wait till I'm in an environment that's peaceful and quiet and I have an opportunity to think clearly.

And so I've got these audio messages ready and I can forward them to people as well. But the thing is, if you've got a child that's in a class, right, and he raises his hand and he needs to use the restroom and he needs to do it like 10, 15 times a day.

And the teacher gets to the point where he picks up on this. This child is exploiting the, um, you know, trying to use the restroom so he can go play in the halls all day.

Right. So at that point. You're saying the child is doing that or not doing that?

That's the child exploiting it. This is the child exploiting it. So this would be the person with the mental impairment using it as an excuse for sin, for instance.

Hey, I just want to clarify. So, so it's not the fact because then I, maybe I, because I read that as someone who has to go to the bathroom a lot and you're calling it sin.

It's not a sin. No, that's not what I was saying. Okay. So let me further explain. Let me finish the thing because there wasn't enough characters to give you the whole, what

I was trying to say. That's why I wanted to get on live so I could kind of flesh out. It's always better to be on live so we can have dialogue.

Okay. So what happens is the kid, he keeps raising his hand. He abuses it to the point that the teacher recognizes what's happening.

And so then he stops allowing him, says, no, you know, you need to wait until recess or wait until the appointed time like everyone else.

Right. Well, then in that same classroom and now after all these kids have been abusing it, now there's a child that shows up, raises his hand.

Now he has a small bladder, wets the bed at home. He has a real issue. Now, whenever the teacher wrongly discerns that one child from the rest of the group, that kid ends up having to urinate on himself.

And it gets traumatized in this situation in the classroom where he's got a disorder of some kind. But the teacher didn't believe it because all of the other kids had been exploiting it.

So and so there's a Latin phrase that Gavin Ortlund had used when he was explaining this.

And it is it means that abuse does not negate proper use.

Right. So and so that I agree with everything you've said so far, like that teacher was wrong to do that.

But I'm still trying to figure out you haven't answered the question what we misunderstood. Well, because I got to finish.

OK, so OK, he already said he misunderstood it. That was why

I misunderstood. I didn't say that at all. I'm pretty sure I understood it because you're saying everything that I understood.

But I'm waiting for you to continue. OK, so so what happens is that kid could have had a doctor's note, would have had he's a legitimate case, for instance.

Right. But a lot of the other kids aren't. So from the teacher's perspective, and in this case, you guys would be the teacher.

Say you're the biblical counselor. Right. How do you discern the kid that has the legitimate impairment versus the ones that are just abusing if you're only going off of a behavioral basis?

You're going to answer your question. But I'm still waiting for you to answer my question. I will answer it.

I thought your question was to explain the teacher and the kid raising his hand. No, no. You said you said that we we said that we made fun of it because of his little my pillow jokes.

Right. But you said that we took it out of context. You said multiple times about context.

You said this is not different than the teacher who thinks every kid is lying about needing to use the restroom and toxically ends up forcing the child with a small bladder to wet his pants.

That was read. Right. And you said, here's the question. What is not different than the teacher who does that?

What we're doing. So again, my answer to your question is no.

When I say that if a child who has been diagnosed with ADHD is sinning, according to what the

Bible says is sin, it's a sin. What I just said cannot be compared to a teacher who doesn't know why that who just assumes he knows why that child is doing what he's doing, because that doesn't involve sin.

That doesn't involve what the Bible says about sin. It's just a teacher is fed up with the kids abusing something and making an assumption, which is foolish and punishing a kid because of it.

Those are two very different things I'm talking about. When the Bible talks about a specific, clearly outlined sin and when a child's engaging in that sin,

I don't care if he's red or yellow, black or white. I don't care if he has ADHD. I don't care if he's 85 or if he's 18.

I don't care. I don't care about any of that. The Bible says it's a sin. So that's what I'm saying. I understand that you just OK, so let me make the analogy relevant for you.

So you've got the instead of that scenario you've got is still like the kids in the class.

But now we're going to talk about two. We're going to talk about a kid in the class with a behavioral impairment or a mental impairment that causes a certain behavior.

And we're going to talk about the rest of the kids in the class having bad behavior, but they don't have a mental impairment.

OK, so now there's bad behavior. So you don't have to explain it because you already said it's bad behavior.

Just want to finish, man. I want you to finish too, but you said it was bad behavior. So that means it's bad.

Yeah, I just I just get you got to finish. Let me finish out the thought for you to understand it. All right. Because some of this stuff, it takes a minute to actually explain it.

So it doesn't just come out in the short. I mean, just give me a second. All right. So now if you've got the one person with the impairment, a real physical impairment, and they're having behavioral issues and the other ones are just having behavioral issues.

Now, your your assessment, if I understand correctly, is to say all of those kids are just having behavioral issues and it's the same thing, right?

Never said that. No, I'm asking. I just asked you if that's what you're saying. Am I correct? No, no. I'm saying that the

Bible said that sin is sin. Disobedience is sin. Impatience is sin.

Unkind words and cutting speech is sin. So if I have a so if I have a room full of children who are calling each other inappropriate names,

I'm going to say to each of them, you need to not do that. That's wrong. So let me ask you this.

If if that one kid that's in the class and I'm using autism as an example, because that's one that you're not going to deny that is a physical impairment.

So autism is autism is a big word that doesn't mean anything until you define what slice of autism you're talking about.

But continue. All right. Let's say it's a nonverbal autistic, you know, high end of the spectrum, low functioning autistic person.

It's in there. All right. OK, yeah. And this child's grunting, making noises, singing, making kind of sounds behavioral issues.

Is that a behavioral issue? I'm asking you. I'm asking you. I don't know. Did the teacher tell everyone they needed to be quiet?

Nonverbal children have the ability to be quiet. That's part of the problem. They don't have to make their noises in that moment.

Are we talking about a child who potentially has a different physiological issue that they can't control?

They make sounds to the degree that they breathe. We're talking about that child. If if if a teacher is saying no one's allowed to make any noise, that teacher needs to be fired if they're working with that person.

That's not that's not poor authority. Right. So that's something that that child wouldn't be able to control.

But what I'm talking about is I'm talking about using simple terminology. I'm talking about using disobeying.

I'm talking about impatience. I'm talking about things that the Bible clearly define as sin. I'm not talking about a child grunting.

But let's just go with your nonverbal thing. If your nonverbal child was everyone's enough for the next 10 seconds, we're all going to be quiet as we observe the injustice going on in the

Gaza Strip. I don't agree with any of that. But they say because it's a public school, so they say that.

Right. And that child just start that nonverbal child starts making a bunch of these sounds just to make sounds they don't have to.

They've been quiet up until now. But now they're making the sounds. I would argue that that child made a choice to do something that was inappropriate and had nothing to do with their being nonverbal.

So how would you handle that? How would I handle that? Oh, well, I'd have to have a conversation with the child, but I would

I would I would sit down. I mean, OK, assuming, OK, that I'm in a context where I actually have any type of spiritual authority in their life where I'm able to speak into this conversation,

I would just have a conversation with say, hey, buddy, you know, I love it when you interact in class.

You know, I do when I ask a question and you make your special sound for agreement, man, I think that's so fantastic.

But we also know that you spend a long time in class really quiet. And that's also helpful, too, because when you're really quiet, everyone can hear the lesson.

But, you know, I think it's interesting that that for those 10 seconds I asked everyone to be quiet.

That was the one time that you chose to make noise. Now, just to answer your question, because you can't put these things into you have to have these things in context.

Is this the first time this kid has done this? If it's the first time this kid has done this, I'm going to have a slightly different conversation with him.

Is this the second second time? Is this the 72nd time? All different conversations because the child is proving who he is when he as he does these things.

So I have a conversation and I just say, hey, listen, so the next time I ask for 10 seconds of silence, we're going to be quiet for those 10 seconds.

OK, right. And we're going to have that conversation. And again, if he sits if this child possesses the ability to sit for anything longer than 10 seconds in silence.

And he does it all throughout the day, but he chooses those 10 seconds to make a ton of noise and just go on and on.

And his classmates are laughing and giggling, and he's kind of like, you know, being egged on by it. And that is a behavioral issue not tied to his nonverbal struggles.

So that's a behavior to be repented of. Well, the answer, Matt, it was a choice to disobey the teacher to get a laugh from his co from his peers.

Yeah. The Bible's clear about so. So the thing is, Matt, you deal with this and I'm going to put the post that you put up.

You deal with it individually. You've created a false narrative.

Right. So the post that we're talking about was you said this is not different than a teacher who thinks every kid is lying about needing to use the restroom and toxicity is forcing a child with a small bladder to wet his pants.

Okay. Now, granted, here you've added more to that. Okay. All right. So you have something like Twitter sized messages are very difficult.

Here's my advice. When you recognize that it's a Twitter sized message and you can't fully express yourself, then do not accuse people of lying when you haven't provided enough information.

Okay. Because when you do that, I mean, as other people commented here, when you accuse people of lying, you're not deescalating.

You're picking up. I thought you said if it sounded like I'm on you, please forgive me. And I said, okay,

I forgive you, but you're rehatching it. Because you're discussing this. You brought this topic up, right?

We were talking about something completely different than that. You brought this from like a minute ago.

A minute ago. Correct. So am I mocking you? Am I using this to turn it into a commercial and transitioning?

No. Yeah, that's fine. I said water off a duck's back, man.

It's no big deal. Okay. So now we're dealing with what you brought up with this that you asked

Aaron to answer. I'm trying to give an answer. And really, it's not about this post.

I'm trying to help you with the behavior that you're exhibiting. And so I'm actually answering your question by practicing exactly what

I say. I'm dealing with you as an individual. And so individually, you acknowledge that you did not give all of the context in this.

And yet, because we disagreed with this, you accused us of lying. That is a big leap.

You accused us of taking you out of context when you admit you couldn't provide the context.

So that's what I'm addressing. It's your behavior. In lieu of not having all of that,

I mean, you were very quick to just jump to conclusions as well. No, that is inappropriate.

Slow down, slow down. What you said was not true. And this is why I have to stand and I have to say, brother,

I love you. And I hope that you are a brother in Christ. But I have to say what you said was fundamentally false.

You don't just get to make up reality. What actually happened was that you said something.

We responded to the words you said. That is all we did, the words that you chose to communicate your ideas.

I feel like we could have a more productive conversation. If a minute, just a second ago, before we rehatched this, we were talking about, you know, asking you the question about how you would handle this autistic child in these scenarios.

And the reason I'm asking you those questions is fundamentally, I'm trying to understand the disconnect that you're making between a person's physical brain impairment, that it completely changes their character and behavior and ability to process information and regulate emotion and think.

We actually addressed that already. And hold on. And sin. So I'm trying to understand your connection there so that I can understand more where you come from.

Because like I said, you're what you're saying is I think it's reminiscent of what MacArthur said and what he said.

But it's I think you're I don't know you guys. I wasn't prepared to answer that before he does.

Andrew, I need to bow out. It's getting late. I got to work early. But Aaron, always great being on the show with you.

I love it every time you come on. Andrew, it's good to see you, too. Matt, thanks for coming in.

No problem. And Drew, maybe we'll do this again next week so you can get to what you're.

Maybe we may have a different episode next week. Yeah, we will. So, Matt, let me let me answer the question.

And you can see this. There's a consistency here. Every time we bring up something that you need to work on.

You know, that's all you're doing that instead of having a discussion about the keep trying to be confrontational about me.

I'm not being I don't know why you're trying to finish your sentence. I'll just listen to you talk about me.

I'm not I'm I'm trying to help you as a brother in Christ. I'm trying to help you. That's the narrative.

It's not a narrative. It is definitely a narrative. OK, so you're not going to let me finish a sentence.

This is this is that this is the escalation you're taught in your job. No, this is like somebody that's trying to be a bully and me saying, man, just quit.

I agree. You're being bullied. I agree. Being a bully. I'm not. You needed me for like four minutes.

Why are you on the show, dude? It's a show. Yeah. So but that doesn't give you the right to be like a dictator. I'm not being a dictator.

What I'm doing is trying to control things so we can have civil conversation, which you seem to want to prevent.

Now, here's the thing. You've been asked several questions throughout. You haven't answered any of them.

You asked us to you wanted a specific answer to a question that we have answered about four or five times in the show.

And yet, when do you keep bringing it up? You keep bringing this up because we're trying to address something.

You accused us of taking you out of context and lying when you admit you could not provide the context because it was a

Twitter sized thing. So the behavior that I'm addressing with you is you you should not, especially if you say you're de -escalate.

It is not de -escalation language to accuse people of lying and taking out of context when you admit you did not provide the context.

So here's what I think. We were making a lot of good ground. I think we're getting productive and trying to get to the core of this discussion where we're trying to isolate what's going on between physical impairments and behavior and sin.

But we've answered that. And you're going to burn out the time that you have.

All you're going to filibuster this thing, trying to talk about me and this narrative of sin and my personal issues or whatever you think.

And you're avoiding all of the real issues that we really came on here to talk about. No, no, because if you want to listen, if you want to have a discussion with me.

Matt, listen, we answered that. You weren't listening. This isn't a public counseling session,

Andrew. This is not a public counseling session. What we're doing here is trying to discuss if certain things are actually true.

And that's really important. Tell me that. He's right. The question has been answered.

My friend, my friend, hear my heart. This is why it's becoming a counseling session.

OK, it's becoming a counseling session because we want to have a discussion with you. But what you're showing, and I teach this,

I teach this to parents. If I walk into my son's room and I say, hey, bud, make sure you get your room cleaned up before this weekend.

And he goes, fine. I just want to say that the constructive criticism is a one way street with you guys.

It's not it's not a one way street. Here's the problem. I think he's commenting to something

I put up here. Jason Cave said constructive criticism is necessary and hard to take when we don't let go of self.

Exactly. I agree with that 100 percent. And I think that it needs to be a two way street here and not. OK, and so you bring it up the numbers that I tried to point out when you accuse us of lying and taking something out of context and you admit you didn't provide the context, then it wasn't constructive criticism.

It was false. And that's the reason we're giving you constructive criticism.

And whereas Andrew has been able to admit a wrong and ask for forgiveness, there have been multiple times where we have shown to you categorically that something that you said was false.

And you have not yet admitted every question that has been asked of you. What are you talking about? Answer what you got to remember.

You got three or four people asking a guy with says nothing. There's nothing to do with it. When you work, when you came back onto the show,

I specifically said something to this effect. A lot of things have just been said. I'm asking you to respond to a simple question.

And I did. Which no, you did not. No, you did not answer it. What's the question? I'll answer any question you have, but you can't just machine gun me with this stuff.

You know, Matt, to say that I am machine gunning you with this stuff is inappropriate as I have not done it.

Look, talking to me like I'm four years old doesn't help either, man. I can come on. Matt, I've tried.

I've tried lots of little things. I have. I have. So when I said to you is this, according to the

Cleveland Clinic, you made the claim and you, you argued with me. You actually is one of those times that you

I've stepped on your lines. You stepped on my lines. Just ask me the question you want to ask me.

I'm very. I am asking you the question. I want to ask you. I am. I am asking you. So please listen. All these problems you think you have with me.

No, I'm not. I'm just telling you what happened. You had said earlier in the show that ADHD is a form of autism.

That's what you said. So Cleveland Clinic, I said to you, no, ADHD isn't on the autism spectrum.

Will you please answer that rebuttal? You didn't do it. And then you casually, we can go back into the video and we can watch it.

You're, you're saying a bunch of other things. And then you, then you just threw in the claim. I never said that ADHD was a form of autism, which was false.

So you didn't answer the question. You claim to have not said the thing that, that, that was the very reason

I, I presented the material in the first place and asked you to respond to it. So, so we are at, we are presenting things that you're saying this.

And we just found a piece of data that, that shows, that proves that there is not worldwide consensus. You said this, and we just found a piece of data that says, that's not true.

Will you please respond to that? And then you don't. And then you talk, start calling, talking about how you're three against one and counseling sessions and you're, you're distracting.

We're playing the victim that was asked about that too. It's so I'm curious if you would answer the question.

Yeah. So there are two questions that was asked. There's that question. The other question that was asked was where, what are your sources?

So Matt, you now have two questions that were asked for you from both Aaron and Drew. Please answer only those.

Go ahead. Could you restate the questions? Because I was kind of caught up in all this other stuff he's saying.

Well, when I asked you, the first question was what your source was from Facebook. I'm just curious about your source that you said

I should go to your Facebook page to see. Okay. And now, okay. So here's my question.

Cause I'm kind of preempting where you're going with this. Is that you're going to try to discredit the source. You just tell me not to do that.

Didn't you just tell me just to talk to you like an adult and ask the question. I'm not trying to discredit the source. I'm actually just curious. And what you just did is you just projected onto me something that's not true.

Because you don't know my heart. Man looks on the outward appearance. God looks on the heart. And I just, I'm just genuinely curious of what your source is.

One second, Matt, this is the thing. This is what

I told you privately. And this is what I've said to you multiple times tonight. You're not listening to what we're actually saying.

That was a great example. He asked you a very simple question. What is your source? And what did you do?

Well, let me preempt it. In other words, you're saying you already are making a conclusion of what he's really saying.

And you want to answer that instead of answering the question. He's actually saying that's the proof that you're not listening.

And that is why I keep asking you to listen to what's actually being said.

Because you're not responding to what we're saying. You're responding to what you think we're going to say.

Okay. So the first question is what's my source, right? What's the second question? Yep. Because you disagreed with the...

Can we get one answer before we put on the second one? Yeah. So what's the first question?

What's the source of my information? The source? No. You told me to look at your Facebook page.

Yeah. Because I listed out all of it. There's a worldwide consensus. Well, I'm not even going back to the worldwide consensus.

This was just about... You specifically said go to your Facebook page and you had an article posted there. And I don't know your

Facebook page. So I was just asking you to tell me what your source was. All right. So one at a time. All right.

So one person talking at a time at least. Um, so whenever the information that's on my

Facebook, that, as far as I understand, I already told you it was chat GPT, but it...

All of it? I didn't realize all of it was. No, just like the most recent ones that show 20 different...

I mean, there's more than that, but it shows 20 different physical similarities between ADHD and autism.

Thank you so much for answering the question. I really appreciate that. And as far as I understand, because I know you guys don't have any respect for chat

GPT, but you have to understand just because chat GPT could be, you know, biased or wrong about something doesn't mean it's wrong about everything.

Correct. And the other thing is accurate. Yeah. And the other thing is, um, whenever you get very good, goodness, whenever you get, let me...

Hey, I got ADHD for real, man. Cause you keep interrupting me and you don't let me get my thought out.

You do the same thing, but it's okay when you do it. Let's go from your worldview.

You're going to do that thing when others do it to you. Okay. Don't do that. You, you, you, you, you say it's wrong.

So are you, my friend, you can laugh all you want, but so are you. Because I just tried to answer your question. I couldn't even get two words out.

That's not, no, that is not true. You got more than two words out. You actually said a lot of things. And if I had a photographic memory, I could tell you exactly what they were, but you talked about chat

GPT. You talked about it being on your Facebook page and how most of the things are on their chat GPT. And I asked, I asked a clarifying question and you said, yeah, that one's chat

GPT. And I said, thank you. Those are a little bit more than two words. You guys should get Academy Award for filibustering, man.

Wow. And you can't even acknowledge the fact that what you said was fundamentally untrue. You got more than two words out. So what's fundamentally untrue?

That you got more than two words out. That's, that's a nomenclature figure of speech, man.

You're trying to be literal with my, everything I say. I mean, you're getting real picky on me. You are.

So, so the thing is, you look, okay, so here's my question. We asked for the source.

Yeah. Chat GPT, which pulls this information from all of the more specific.

Can I ask, are you going to bully me? Well, before you ask me the question about my comment, can I finish my thought about chat

GPT and I'll be done with it. I just want to say one last thing about chat GPT. It pulls its sources from all of a bunch of very substantial places as well.

And the more specific and technical that you get with chat GPT, generally, the more accurate it is.

If you ask it some vague question, it's not going to be as accurate as if you ask me, give me all the technical jargon for neuroscience.

It's pulling that from a very specific sources on the internet. It's not pulling that from just all over, you know, anywhere.

Okay. Hold on. So what you're referring to is what we call prompt engineering. Okay. So for folks to understand prompt engineering is it's new because this whole genitive

AI is new. It's the way you ask a question can affect the answer you get from chat

GPT. Right. The question that we asked was your source. And so chat

GPT, just so you recognize, is not actually a source because it's pulling from sources.

Correct. I agree. I agree. Okay, good. We can get some agreement. So when you made the comment, the reason we asked for the sources, you said there was worldwide consensus and we asked what was your source.

So chat GPT was your source for the worldwide consensus? Yes, it was.

Okay. And yet you do agree that chat GPT is not an actual source, correct?

Yeah, that it pulls from all of the other sources, which is how it comes to the conclusion that it's a worldwide consensus.

Good. We're getting somewhere. So do you have sources that can support your claim?

Because Aaron gave a source that contradicted the claim that you called a lie.

He has it. Because you have to remind me which claim that is. I contradicted the claim that science proves that ADHD is a neuro issue.

And you quoted that from what you said in the DSM. Is that what you're talking about? That is correct. The only people who are legally allowed to diagnose somebody with ADHD said that those neuro research is not conclusive.

Right. And then the second thing I did is when we made it very clear and we had a little back and forth, were you saying that ADHD is in fact in the autism spectrum?

Okay. And I said that you can have a person with both, but it doesn't automatically mean it's in there.

Yes, it did. I provided you a source that said. All right. So let's lay that one, that second part to rest.

You can look at everything I've got on that. I've said and written about this. Like I said, all the information

I'm citing and the stuff I've got on my Facebook and the stuff I've sent to all of my friends on Facebook and everything else.

And I've never said that ADHD is on the autistic spectrum. So if you'd heard that, or if I said that it was a mistake, so we can just let that one go.

You know what, Matt, I really appreciate you saying that because I was going to suggest that Andrew just go back and pull the clip out for the next show because it is definitively there, but I appreciate your willingness to admit that that was a mistake.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if I did say that I misstated that and it was, you know, but yeah,

I've never, I don't, that's not something I claim at all. What I claim is that the way that autism is diagnosed from everything, from the neuro developmental to the neuro biological, to the neuro chemical, to the fact that it's hereditary and genetic and they've isolated the genes, all of these physical things that have to do with the synapses and the neurons and neurotransmitters and all of these very specific physical components of autism are also true of ADHD, which is why they are exactly the same when it comes to how they're diagnosing them.

And it's exactly the same when it comes to how they're proving this empirically with scientific method and with neuroimaging and brain scans and, and, you know, actually knowing exactly what components of the part are malfunctioning.

And I mean, they've got this thing down to what you might say, a science. Okay. And this is why, and this is why

I asked you in private chat, if you understood anything of epigenetics.

No, I don't even know. I don't even know what that word means. Okay. Well, I did talk about it. We talked about it and I explained it to you.

Epigenetics is a study that shows that behavior can affect your genes. So the example that I gave, you have someone that you have people, they do this study and they say, everybody who practices homosexuality has this same genetic marker.

I feel like that's a huge category error. It is, but he's just using it to, to, to show that there is a correlation between behavior and genetics.

That's the only reason he's bringing it up. He's not comparing homosexuality to what you're saying. Listen to what he's saying. Yeah. Yeah.

I think, okay, well, let me see if I understand what you're saying. I'm explaining epigenetics.

So they say that the, so the argument they make is that people practice homosexuality because they have this genetic marker.

So they're preconditioned to, or designed to be homosexual.

And therefore, let me finish, please.

I was agreeing with you, but go ahead. I get it, but you're not listening. So what epigenetics, that science has shown is that behavior like practicing homosexuality can affect the genes.

Therefore, someone who practices homosexuality, the genes will change.

This is what the study of epigenetics shows. Therefore, when you look at this and you go, oh, look, someone has this gene.

That's why they're homosexual. The question, it's a cart before the horse issue.

The question is, did the gene cause homosexuality or did the behavior change the gene?

When they do these studies, they only look at people in this example.

They only look at people that practice homosexuality. And then they conclude everybody that practices this, they have this gene.

Therefore, anyone that has this gene is going to be homosexual. Now they make that conclusion, but epigenetics shows that the behavior is changing the gene.

Therefore, that throws that argument out. Why? Because the behavior is changing it.

And what they need to do to do a proper study is study everybody, both heterosexual, homosexual, long before they practice homosexuality and study their genes.

OK, and this is why when people make the claims now to the autism or other things that you're saying, is there something in behavior or as some people feel, is there something in vaccines that cause the genes to change or a behavior that then affect the genes?

Right. So now if you're doing that and you're only having a sample in your test sample of people that have autism and they all have the same gene, is it because of the behavior change the gene?

Or maybe a vaccine change the gene? Or is it that they had that gene and that caused?

Now, we can't tell. You know why? Because you have to have a control group to be able to do the test.

Example, COVID vaccine. What did they do? You had a control group.

And so you had some people that got the actual vaccine and some people got a placebo. OK. OK, can

I can I say something real quick? Because when when we're talking about some gene for homosexuality, first of all,

I don't even believe that exists at all. And a gene for ADHD exists either.

Wait, man, I only got you guys got me down to three or four words again. All right.

So we said that was OK. Come on. You can't accuse us of bad behavior when you're practicing it.

I'm just pointing it out. Hey, he's not he's not listening. Let him go. Let him let him keep talking.

OK, because I'm trying to read something to you guys and explain something. But goodness gracious.

All right. So so we've got genetic predisposition for ADHD, right?

It's polygenic. And and it's hereditary up to 70 to 80 percent heritability rate.

So this isn't this is saying that it's completely it's like, wait, let me finish.

I'm asking you to repeat it because I didn't hear it. Oh, well, when you're talking.

OK, so you know how Matt Slick spends 20 minutes trying to get his his stuff right. And if it's getting feedback and it's repeated, that's all just for me to hear it.

OK, OK. Calm down. All I'm saying is it's hard for me when you talk while I'm talking. It'll destroy my entire train of thought.

So I'm just trying. I'm just explaining to you that I'm I'm really dealing with this stuff. This isn't something that that I'm just out here talking about because I have, you know, no no skin in the game.

You know what I mean? Like this is something I'm really dealing with on a day to day basis for 42 years. And so maybe you guys, you know, are superior.

You know, you've got some kind of mental discipline and self self -discipline. You've repented from whatever I didn't stop attacking us.

And just repeat what you said. Stop the virtual signaling and the victim card.

Just I'm not a victim. I'm not a victim. I can call. All right, so here's what it is.

70 to 80 percent heritability estimates for ADHD. That's a very strong genetic component.

And it's polygenic, which means there are several different genes that contribute to ADHD and that it is it is a physical thing.

Family and twin studies consistently show higher rates of ADHD among biological relatives, indicating a significant a significant genetic influence.

This isn't something that, you know, it's like some person's just claiming that they've got that. It's not what you're talking about, like you're saying behavior affects the genes or something like that.

It's not that at all. May I speak to what you just said? This is a highly, highly predictable.

Oh, yeah, it is predictable. It is predictable. You know how I can tell you that it's predictable? I just want to say something.

It's just as predictable as transgenderism is predictable in liberals.

You if you look at all the factors and you can look at the genetics. It's nothing like that.

That is completely false. Like what you're saying is the narrative. OK, stop bullying me and cutting me off.

I'm going to call you out on what you do. OK, I'm tired of it. Wow. I'm talking. I'm sorry.

I'm really tired of it because you keep doing this and then you play the victim and go, oh, you guys are being bullies.

You call it bullying. Fine. It's bullying. Stop it, Matt. I'm talking hard because you need to be or talk too hard because you need to correct your behavior.

OK, it's not you. All right. Go ahead, Matt. If it's wrong with me, then it's wrong with you.

Matt, listen, buddy. All right. If this is what a counseling session looks like with you guys, man,

I feel so bad for the people and what you see, what you're what you just did is a jerk move.

Yeah, well, so what you're yelling at me, Matt, I have not actually actually raising your voice is not rude.

It's all throughout the script. Oh, well, seeing one's voice is appropriate. Y 'all are the ones doing it. No, no,

Matt. It's just what the Bible says. Now, Matt, listen, OK, I'm I'm done, OK? I work at a boy's home for at risk.

I honestly think five years and I've had so many of these conversations. So how many people do you want interrupting me right now?

So I'm just talking and you're being very pejorative. You keep refusing all of these things that you're doing.

Now, here's the thing. Here's the thing that actually is going to matter. What you said, I'm going to agree with you. Yeah. Children turn out like their parents.

You know what my speciality is, Matt? My speciality is parenting. And the reality is the biblical reality.

The scientific reality is that children turn out like their parents. So if ADHD is actually more behavioral than it is genetic, then it actually would make 100 percent scientific sense for children of parents and other family members who behave in a certain way to behave in similar ways.

Now, here's the thing that you can't prove that at all, that those are just you are making so in the same way that I can't actually prove that,

Matt. It's literally. Yes, Matt. I'm sorry that I literally can. OK, I literally can't.

No, you literally can't. OK, so which of us is right based on what source? OK, look, listen, whenever you start talking about what you view this as versus what no one agrees with you.

If you if you listen, if you got into a debate with an actual neuroscientist, you wouldn't even be able to say a word because you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

I wouldn't even agree. You're going to go find some you can do like MacArthur and get a psychologist up there after you spent 30 years denouncing psychology.

And then you want to cite a psychologist to agree with you as if that's. No, I don't. I want to prove to you that what you're saying is not true.

And the people who would otherwise be on your side are disagreeing. But here's the thing, Matt, you said that you have the same theology as MacArthur and that you agree theologically with Andrew, so on and so forth, which means you probably agree a lot with me.

Maybe not eschatology, but yeah, sure. And that's fine. I don't agree with him on eschatology either. I'm kidding. Anyway, he and I are the only dispensationalists that are left in the world.

So I'm a dispensationalist. See, there you go. OK, so great. So but here's the thing. But here's the thing. This is what I want to encourage you to do, my friend.

This is what I want to encourage you to do. And I have to be done. So my wife is very patiently waiting to come into this in my bedroom. She's patiently waiting to come in here.

So so I'm just going to for the sake of my wife, I need to be done. But here's how I want to encourage you. OK, first,

Peter tells us that God has given us as a second Peter. I can't remember now that God has given us everything that we need for life and godliness through the knowledge of Jesus Christ and his word.

OK, that means that, though the Bible doesn't teach us that two plus two was four and the Bible doesn't teach us how to change an alternator.

It does teach us how to glorify him when we're adding and we're doing it the right way and how to glorify him when we're changing an alternator to the same degree.

The Bible also teaches us how to glorify him when we have physical stressors in our lives.

OK, when the Bible calls something a sin, it is always going to be a sin. One hundred percent all of the time.

And I really don't care who the person is and how many letters are behind their name. When they look at me and they say,

I don't really care what your Bible says. That's not a sin. The reason this person is acting that way is their genes.

And I agree with you. You cannot blame homosexuality on someone's genetics. Absolutely not.

And if a child and you're using the big picture, the inattentiveness and so on and so forth.

I'm focusing on disobedience and I have been focusing on disobedience the entire time.

Right. Supposed ADHD is, quote unquote, causing a child to disobey.

The Bible says that's a sin. And I'm saying that and I've been very clear the whole time. I'm saying that no physical biological issue can force a person to disobey.

If you disagree with that, you disagree with the Bible. And that, my friend, is a huge deal.

OK, so I do not disagree with the Bible. I do disagree with what you're trying to say right now to some degree.

And I would say this, too. Let's focus on the gospel for a moment. Paul said, I am determined to preach nothing but Christ and him crucified.

Right. If you go to Grace to You and you listen to them every time one of those podcasts or whatever come on, it's going to tell it has that little echo in the background and where it's

MacArthur saying it. I am determined to preach nothing but Christ and him crucified. And we know that Christ is the stumbling block of offense.

Right. That he is the offense. The gospel is the offense, not neuroscience.

So whenever we whenever we walk away from the Bible, we abandon expositional preaching and we start talking about stuff we have no business talking about.

Right. And we have no business talking about it. I always want you to explain why do we have no business talking about it here?

Here's why you can have the discussion. But this isn't something you preach from a pulpit. We're not preaching. We're having a conversation.

We're having a discussion. No, I know why MacArthur did from the pulpit. I'm not MacArthur. We're not talking about that.

OK, but let me let me say this. But let me say this, though. This issue of whether or not it's a physical or not a physical deal.

Right. We're whether or not ADHD is physical or not physical. That is a non biblical issue.

And whenever whenever. Yes, it is. And you're making the person is if the person is sinning, it's a biblical issue.

You listen, listen. If the person sinning, it's a biblical issue. You're you're violating a fundamental principle of Scripture that Jesus Christ needs to be the rock of offense, not you running over here talking about neuroscience or whether or not

ADHD is physical. Obey your parents and the Lord for this.

And we're not the ones talking about neuroscience. It's it's. But what I'm saying is when you go out denying it at the expense of handicapped people and you're making that I'm not doing that.

Yes, you are talking about that. Handicapped people can obey their parents. That's all I'm saying. Despite their handicapped, handicapped people can and should obey their parents.

That is all I'm saying. This is what we're going to end up with. You can't say that the autistic kid is going to obey in the exact same way without behavioral issues that never claimed that kid would literally never claim that.

We've gone over three hours. And so we're ending on this is the fact that what we you know,

I was going to give you one hour. We we went way over that, gave you an hour,

I think an hour and forty five. So we've we've gone longer. I was going to time box it. All right, because I wanted to make sure we give you the time.

But here's the thing. We're going to end it by this, Matt. You have not listened to what we've actually said, and that was the reason that I told you

I was going to block you. It's the reason that I told you I was ignoring you because you're not listening.

I hear what you're saying. I disagree with you. That's totally different. It's no, it's not. I completely understand what you're trying to say.

I've been listening to it. OK, OK, all right, let's do it. We're going to do a really quick test. What is my view?

Here we go. I asked you this. I asked you this in private chat. You never answered.

Explain to me my view. Don't laugh at it and mock me. Answer the question and tell me my view, because if you can't get it right, then you weren't listening.

That's not true either. That's not true either. It's not how that works. Not how that works.

You couldn't tell me my view either. Yes, I can. I can tell you your view so easily. Here's your view.

Let me answer the question. OK, so here's what I remember from everything

Andrew said so far. Andrew doesn't like the fact that I don't listen. He doesn't like the fact that I did this and that wrong.

He doesn't like this other thing. And so listen, but yeah, but when you supercharge the conversation with every critical, criticizing comment you can make, it makes it really hard to listen.

Listen, it makes it really hard to distinguish what you guys are actually trying to say. You're not answering the question. Let him go.

I want to hear my answer. I want to hear the answer. Hold on. Let me go. So go ahead. So from what

I understand, you guys essentially just agree with MacArthur. You agree with his stance. OK, what's his stance?

He said that ADHD is not a physical deficiency in the brain. OK, so so we believe that that ADD is not a deficiency of the brain.

Is that what we believe? As far as I understand, that's what you guys agree with. I want you to go through because we've spent three hours denying that.

Three hours. And you have not listened. You want to say, well, you believe what

MacArthur says. And then you're doing the same thing I warned you about. And wait, here's the other thing that's your view.

OK, so I can't finish. OK, go ahead. You want me to answer. So the other part that's your view is that you believe that physical impairments have no contribution towards bad behavior that you might call sin.

That's another thing that you have said. No, we disagree with that. Categorically said the opposite. So what you guys are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

No, we're not. No, we're not. Go back. We're being consistent. You are not listening.

Because you're answering what you want to hear. If you quit talking like you're getting in a fight with, you know,

Rick Steiner from the WWF. Go ahead. Go ahead. You make it so difficult to understand you when it sounds.

It sounds like you say it really clearly and you don't listen. No, it's always convenient when you can blame the other person.

Do you realize that every every podcast you spend half the time talking about how you ran some atheists off and he only lasted two minutes.

You're so cocky, man. Wow. That episode was last week.

And we still have to hear about it. We still have to hear about five minutes. And for some reason, you just love the idea that Mr.

Apologetic and whatever is out here beating up everybody. And you get so riled up, man. It's like you're on steroid pills or no.

Actually, actually, Matt. Yeah. Yeah, dude, it gets really hard to have a conversation with somebody that's as combative and confrontational as you as you.

I agree. You are. You do it every episode. I just met you on this thing. Every episode. Yes, I can pull up millions of times.

Anybody I show your podcast to, every one of them say this guy, his face is turning red, he's angry.

Matt, do that. Because everyone who watches every week says that I'm for a week.

Let me read to you. Let me read to you what's being said privately that you don't know. You're the 26 people that you've been able to keep following you this whole time, man.

Hold on, hold on. No one wants to hear your echo chamber. You said it's every episode. Oh, so now it's an echo chamber if people agree with me.

So you're never - We've got 26 followers and you've got a debate channel, man. Come on. Matt, okay, listen.

I'm going to jump in here because I'm done. You are being incredibly rude because you have attacked our character.

You have attacked our character. We have not attacked your character one time in this entire show.

You have repeatedly attacked our character. You are not glorifying God because you're not answering the questions.

You're just turning it into pejoratives and you're tearing down people's character. It is completely inappropriate what you're doing.

God is not glorified by how you're conducting yourself in this conversation. All right. I'm done. I love you guys.

I love my wife a little bit more. So - Oh, fantastic. No, I removed him.

I removed him so that - Oh, okay. You know, I have KT's thing up. Andrew has been quite patient with many people.

Matt, you've gotten under his skin more than others. And that is true because of the fact, you know, when he makes statements like,

I do this all the time. You know, folks, listen, we do this to show you why did

I raise my voice to him? Because when he, you know, why did Aaron have to treat him like a child? Because when he acts like a child,

Aaron's going to treat him like a child. There are people you have to speak over when they constantly are playing the victim card.

And they're constantly, it's never his fault. He did admit to one wrong. So that was good. But the overall issue that I said from the very beginning of the show is he is not listening to what

I'm actually saying. And that has been proven out. He did the same thing with Aaron and the same thing with Drew.

Okay. And I really wanted to get, there's a bunch of really good questions. And I know people wanted to,

I wish there was a way for me to save these questions. There was a question Melissa had early on.

Aaron, maybe you want to just, how should individuals deal with, let me put it up actually. How do people deal with, individuals deal with ruminating thoughts due to past trauma?

Yeah, ruminating thoughts is something that, yeah, again, I've been there. I've struggled with that.

It depends a hundred percent, again, at what they're ruminating on, what their experiences are. Again, it does get really difficult.

We want to look at it on an individualized basis. I can say for me, as a perfect example, there are sins of my past that frequently my flesh and Satan will try to bring up.

And I start obsessing over thinking about these things that I've done and so on and so forth. I spoke with a gentleman recently. He's very, very similar.

He gets so caught up regretting the sins of his past, the sins that he admits that he knows

God has forgiven him for and that he's turned away from. He gets so caught up regretting those things that he's actually not living for Christ now.

So again, it depends on what they're considering, what they're thinking on. We talked about past traumas. I've experienced

PTSD before, things like that. I'm not going to compare my trauma to anybody else's, but the reality is this.

God tells us how to think. Okay, Philippians chapter four, that means that he will provide the power for us to do it.

So if what I'm thinking on is causing me despair, discouragement, I say to these people all the time, if you are not experiencing peace, joy, contentment, and gratitude in whatever you're doing, mowing your lawn, thinking about the past, parenting your children, watching

TV, right? If you're not experiencing biblical peace, joy, contentment, and gratitude, you are in sin.

So despair and discouragement, if my thoughts are leading me to that fear and anxiety, those thoughts are sinful.

And what I've done is I've created a habit of meditating. That's the biblical term for it, meditating on these things.

But what does God call us to meditate on? He calls us to meditate on truth.

He calls us to meditate on him. So I'm not going to say that every single example that someone has of ruminating thoughts is categorically a sin.

I want to talk with people, but I know that in my life and in lots of other people's lives with whom I've worked and what the

Bible says, it reveals that more often than not, the issue is ours and more so than it is our biology, which

I don't think Melissa was saying, by the way, in her question. So let me just say, we've got to be all things to all people, right?

And there's different ways. I've said this before, right? The way that I talked with the atheist last week is very different.

The way that I talked with the Orthodox rabbi that came in months ago, right? The way that I speak to Matt is different.

Matt is attacking the character of Drew, Aaron, and myself, claiming that we're lying.

Right? That is not something that you take lightly. And when we point out the fact...

In all fairness, I did tell him he was lying too. But the difference is he was shown that what was said, right?

He said we are twisting out of context, we were lying, and he admits he didn't provide the context.

That right there is now a sin on his part. And instead of repenting, he just keeps changing the topic.

He keeps going, oh, you're bullying. I get it. It's frustrating to hear. And I know and I feel bad for the one person who was triggered because her husband was 18 years that same way.

And we don't want to cause the trauma. But we do want to...

I mean, look, we do this so that we can not only show how to answer things, but also explain why we do what we do.

Why did Aaron start treating him like a child? Because he was acting like one. Why is it that I got loud and talked over him?

Because he would not listen. He's playing the victim. He still is.

He's going, oh, now you're brainwashing and filibustering. He refuses to acknowledge his own behavior.

I should put that up, not just to say it, but so the evidence is there. He said, now here's the brainwashing and filibustering.

The fact is, is that what you have is an individual that... And I want to make sure

I put this up because someone knows him personally. And where is it? Ah, here we go. Melissa said,

I know Matt personally. He's a very sweet guy. He does suffer from autism and struggles with verbalizing his thoughts.

And so I'm putting that up and I put it up during the show purposely to say, we're not being, we're not trying to be a bad guy to Matt, but there is sin in his life that needs to be addressed and he doesn't want it addressed.

And so what, and he's saying, I do this on every episode. This is a behavior,

Aaron, you could speak to. What is it that when Peele do? He's in every episode, right?

He hasn't watched every episode. He's, he made the comment that on, I do this on every episode with the atheist that happened last week.

So it only happened on one episode and then I did it on, talked about it for five minutes, but he says,

I do this all the time. He's over -exaggerating, you know, to make it like, oh, it's everything.

Okay. And so here he's saying, denying physical reality of ADHD, A -H -D -H, which

I think he got wrong, but okay, is sin. We never, see, this is the whole thing.

What's funny is actually, I want to, I want to address that real quick. So we actually didn't establish what

ADHD is. He tried to, he tried to put a lot of things about, you know, proving that it existed, but we, he never really established what exactly he was talking about.

I established it from the DSM. I established what ADHD was. And I also established that you can put point to any neurological issues conclusively.

Do I believe that ADHD as the world views it exists?

Yes, I do. Do I believe that it's mostly a pattern of behaviors as the world does as well?

At least the people who are allowed to diagnose it do. Yes, I do. Is it possible that those individuals have other physiological issues in their life?

Yes, of course they are. But do those physiological issues make them sin? No, that's the answer.

That's it. That's all we've said from the very beginning. So no, I have not said that ADHD doesn't exist.

I have not said ADHD isn't physical. I've been very clear and precise working through each of the little pieces and explaining biblically, you know, where it comes from.

And the point that we kept making, and I think people that watch and listen realize, the point we made was he was not listening to what we said.

He was reacting to what he thought we meant or what we thought we said.

We were able to clearly point that out. But because he's refusing to acknowledge that he could be wrong, he doesn't see it.

And so he takes loving correction as bullying. Meanwhile, he's attacking our character.

He's making overgeneralizations. He's avoiding answering questions.

He's playing the victim. And then he says, oh, that's now he's going to say, you know, he'll say that that's us or what he said was that's us filibustering.

The reality is, Matt, people could see your behavior. Multiple people pointed it out.

You have the choice. You can continue in sin or you could repent. Now, when people come to me with something and tell me

I'm in sin, the thing is, what is the source? Does it matter?

No, it actually doesn't. The question is, are they right? Well, you're shaking your head.

It could. I understand what you're saying now. I get it now. Yeah. Are they right? Yeah, I get it.

A lost person who doesn't know Christ can point something out and be right.

OK, and so he's saying attributing sin to every misbehavior is wrong when you're talking about mental disabled person.

No, because every sin is a misbehavior. It's the very definition of a sin.

Right. Saying that it's not a sin is excusing the sin. We're not saying that the mentally disabled person doesn't have other difficulties.

But if it's a sin, it's a sin. This is the whole reason I said I have the problem with the labels.

Because people make excuses for sin. And that's the danger I see.

And so I know this was frustrating for some. I hope it was helpful for all, maybe.

But here's the thing. OK, he's saying the brain literally regulates behavior.

You cannot alter the brain and behave the same way. And yet the science of epigenetics proves that wrong.

So he's making a statement that is unscientific and even worse, unbiblical.

Because the Bible is really clear that it is not the brain that regulates behavior.

It's the volition. The brain is a defense. But the brain leads to the emotions, leads to the volition.

That's what the Bible says in James. So the reality is, is that this is what happens.

And I feel bad for him. So my prayer and my request from all of you in the audience, please pray for Matt.

Pray for Matt. This is a very emotional topic for him.

You saw that. He's struggling. OK, the struggle is real.

And I want each of us to be praying for him. Because he needs to grow.

All of us need to grow in our sanctification, all of us. OK, so it's not just him.

But we see some glaring issues that he needs to work on.

And we want him to be more like Christ, just like I want me to be more like Christ.

He's now saying that you're emotionally yelling at me half the time. Yeah, there was what, two minutes?

That's half the time. It's these overgeneralizations that is the issue.

He says volume isn't a sin. OK, good. Or no, it's you saying it, sorry.

First I thought he said volume is a sin, then I realized, OK. So the issue is that we have to be praying for him.

He's struggling right now. OK, pray that the Holy Spirit would work on him and help him to see what

I think Aaron and Drew and I genuinely, lovingly wanted to encourage him with.

OK, unfortunately, it did turn the way that I thought it might.

And Aaron predicted it would. And that's sad. And we don't want that.

So Matt, we care for you. Aaron said this earlier, I'll say the same thing. Listen to our voice.

Stop telling us that we don't mean it and we're lying when we tell you we genuinely care for you, love you, and want to see you grow in Christ.

That is, at least that's my heart's desire. But I think it's Aaron's. He said it was. I think it is.

So stop rejecting what we're saying because you disagree. Stop assigning what we believe.

All right. We're telling you categorically you're not listening and you're wrong about what we're claiming.

You can go back and listen, but you need to do that. So folks, pray for Matt, please.

All right. Aaron, I'm going to let you close out. Anything that you want to say or I'll just close.

Yeah, I appreciate it. I thank you for the opportunity to come on to here. I made the comment to Matt there at the end.

You know, I really am. I'm tired. I've worked with enough at -risk teen young men.

I know all the rigmarole. I know all of the stuff. And it was just invaluable.

So why did I stay on? You know, I said earlier about my wife wanting to come into the room and whatnot, and she did sneak by. She's over there.

But why did I stay on? I said, because that wasn't valuable. This de - what's the word

I'm looking for? Debrief. This is valuable. And this is helpful for everybody.

And I just want to encourage everyone to please, please, please, please open your Bibles. See what it has to say.

If medical science or whatever it is contradicts the scriptures, then it doesn't matter who those people are.

It doesn't matter what they say. We need to repeatedly go back to the scriptures. It is eternally relevant.

And that's where I'm going to stand. I am not going to stand there unapologetically. And when it becomes clear that what, you know, what the

Bible says, you don't believe it. Well, honestly, our conversation probably needs to end because you're not going to convince me and I'm not going to be foolish enough to think that I'm going to convince you outside of the

Holy Spirit's work and in your life. So we probably went too long with that conversation, honestly.

Probably did, but you were being kind. Yeah. I mean, I really wanted to only go an hour and we went to.

And so, but I just, it's because, and he would disagree with this.

It's because I wanted to get him to, I wanted to actually have the interaction with him and I wanted him to be able to express his views, but he couldn't, he just couldn't seem to do that without saying things that, claiming things we said that we never said.

And that's the problem. And he probably will create a whole YouTube channel and, you know, put things not in context and, you know, because he said,

I said something and what he said, I said was right up until the last part of it where he added something

I didn't say. That's the point. That is not, you know, like when you put something in quotes and say, he said that it's got to be exactly what was said.

So, so next week, I don't know what we're going to do for next week. We do have the possibility of a

Muslim coming on that is going to disagree with me on Islam. We'll see if that will happen. But we'll be here,

I'm sure, next week. And with that, we'll see you next time. And remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of God.