June 12, 2003

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James wife.

Responding to Roman Catholic Message Board Claims

And welcome to the dividing line. It is a Thursday evening. We are live here in Phoenix, Arizona and This evening. I have a special program. Well, we like to think that they all are. But this one is a little different.

I You know someone asked me I forget who it was. Asked me how do you keep up? With with all the goings-ons all the stuff that's posted out there in the web. And you know what? I I don't I really I really don't the what I do is people a certain small number of folks.

Take the time to send me interesting URLs and I've sort of learned Who is out there and and who is finding the best stuff and they send me good stuff. They don't send they don't overwhelm me, but they they encounter stuff I think I'd find interesting and most of the time I do and so I was sent a link this week to a Thread on a message board now message boards Generally and those of you who run message boards, please do not take this.

Take this negatively, but message boards generally are the biggest time Destroyers on on the planet. And that's coming from someone who used to be very big into the BBS scene. Some of you may recall BBS is that existed before the Internet did and I remember our little we had a high speed computer 10 megahertz Computer it wasn't even a 3d 6.

There's an 80 88 10 megahertz clock speed and and like oh, I forget probably had like a you know, 20 30 megabyte hard drive, you know, it was big in its name and Anyway, we we had a BBS that we ran off of it.

It was 33 and we took it down. Yeah 33 megahertz. Yeah, I know but the we started with that 10 megahertz thing that had it was a 3d 6. Yeah, but We started with the 10 as I read the 10 megahertz machines.

I recall and we ran. What's it possible again, what did we call it now forgotten? Yeah, it's probably called possible again. Yeah, that's that's our chat channel now. But we had a BBS and we had echoes on it and all that stuff.

Anyway, I'm getting off topic and that's sort of like a message board because you would write stuff but at least back then. When you'd write a message to somebody else it took time to get to their BBS and to their system and then they'd respond and it would take time to get back sometimes as as much as days and so it it didn't necessarily overwhelm you quite as much as As modern-day message boards do and I could spend literally I could spend all day Just responding to messages on message boards if I want to do that.

It would it would be very easy to do every once in a while. I've done that recently I I sort of did a we called it the shock and awe campaign on one particular Message board because they were getting inundated by by Roman Catholics specifically.

Anyway, I was sent a Thread on the Envoy magazine web board and It's you know, speak your mind. Let's see, what's this specifically called if I can Sort of go back here just a little bit. There's a specific name.

It's envoy magazine comm slash forum on Patrick Madrid's website and The planet envoy speak your mind discussion forums is what says the top of the screen and I started reading through it and I found it Just fascinating.

I really did. In fact, I mentioned that I was going to respond to it and Someone who remained nameless said well, why is it upset you so and I don't have to be upset to respond to me. I just found it fascinating the kind of comments and the rumor mongering That goes on out there in regards to myself and the the ministry that we have and the debates that we do and this particular thread was begun by a Person who identifies themselves as skyfire and this was posted on March 27th.

Good grief. Is this is this right? Does it say 2002? That that long ago and I that doesn't make any sense because then the rest of them say 2003 so Who knows that's the dating looks a little bit weird here, but be that as it may I found the thread most interesting and I hope you will find it interesting too as I respond To some of the things that are said here.

Skyfire wrote in his article Can any Roman Catholic apologist beat James White in a debate? I was browsing the internet and encountered a good Roman Catholic site. The site has links to debates between James White and Roman Catholic apologists such as Roberts and Jenna's Tim Staples Jerry, Matt, it's father Mitch Paco, etc.

Granted that James White's arguments are flawed and dwelled on Misconceptions, but however his skills a debater is awesome because he successfully in my opinion Embarrassed his opponents in the eyes and ears the general public whose knowledge and scriptures are not as extensive.

To recognize the errors in the contents of James White's arguments. James White's skill in a debate I must say outweighs many others because his spinning skill with scriptures Seemed genuine in the general public's eyes and ears.

Are there any Roman Catholic apologists that can face James White and beat him in a debate? Well, that was an interesting way of starting it, of course, I I Rarely get to hear anything Fleshed out when statements like Let's see when it talks about Misconceptions and things like that flawed his arguments are flawed and dwelled on Misconceptions not sure what that means.

I hear that a lot but I don't see much in the way of specifics and in my experience if I were to write to this person and Ask for specifics and I've done this every once in a while people will send me URLs and I'll sort of pop into the middle of a conversation and Someone will just be you know.

They'll be on a roll about how bad I am and how my understanding of this that and the other thing is flawed. And then all sudden I just show up and say hi. My name is James White and what specifically am I?

Misunderstanding here and all of a sudden man, you know the the the wheels start smoking. With people who slam it into reverse and well, I didn't really mean to say that but I mean Dad and and it's it's been I've and it's not I've not done it just once.

I've done a number of times where I have simply walked into a situation and said, okay, you say they're all flawed show me where and very rarely do I get much in the way of meaningful response, but Anyway, it seems that the assertion here as well.

He spins stuff. I have a spinning skill and again, you know this last debate with Mitch Pack was the 47th we've done you would think there would be a tremendous body of examples of these basic Biblical errors that people could draw from but I haven't seen.

I just don't see anyone. You know drawing these things out and providing the documentation it's it's most interesting. Well. Then that there is a response posted by SK ripper 2001 whatever in the world that means His answer is James Aiken.

James Aiken can beat white and debate and has in my humble opinion He did it on Hank Hanegraaff's radio show the Bible answer man Catholic answer sells it in a three tape audio cassette tape set called The Bible answer man debate.

Let me stop right there and You know I've expressed to both Carl Keating and James Aiken that I think they they really should should be a little more upfront in Demons in you know, at least admitting that this is a Bible answer man program.

They seemingly and this has been my my take on this in examining these things a number of times. If a person doesn't simply self-destruct that means they win. And I found it strange that that people who believe that Roman Catholicism is infallible.

That it's the only true church that it's the church that exists for 2 ,000 years can actually be Satisfied that their debater doesn't just self-destruct that that somehow is a sufficient basis To to establish an infallible system.

I've found that to be very very interesting. I would sort of think That in reality if Roman Catholicism is what Roman Catholicism claims to be That it shouldn't be survival means victory. It should be vanquishing those who who obviously don't know the truth.

I would think that would be the standard. But that isn't the the standard for victory for Roman Catholics is was the person still standing and had not made Massive gaffes like pay me now or pay me later.

You know that kind of a thing that somehow indicates that that Roman Catholicism wins the day if Their debater isn't to basically drooling by the end of the evening and and I just I don't find that to be a meaningful standard.

How about how about looking at it and for example, this is Patrick Madrid's web page and he's actually I'm gonna read his responses down here. Someone I think the individual actually who sent this to me.

I thought made a very You know Insightful statement when when I wrote wrote back to him He made the statement. I hope it doesn't mind my Reading this on the on the program. He said the Saints and images debate that was the bay I had with Patrick.

We did wasn't even close when you asked him would the Latria Dulia Distinction have worked in Moses his time and he said no then you asked then what was what has changed his response as well. The second command dealt with a particular propensity towards idolatry, which no one in the modern era has.

That lost the debate for him. I just wish someone would have forced him to deal with the linguistic material you presented on and then there's a number of words given here Avada Kedavra to you all etc and how they're used over and over together throughout the Old Testament.

He didn't even attempt to touch that stuff. That is what? People who listen to debates carefully have commented on a number of times the first thing that was said to me by a Protestant after the debate was This man Patrick Madrid could never debate Barry Lynn.

He could never debate him on the subject of homosexuality. Because the entire argument that he used was well, if you find anything that contradicts my position That was only relevant at the time. There was a special propensity toward idolatry then that doesn't exist anymore.

So it's not relevant to what I do well, that would very easily be used in response to homosexuality that's in fact, that's a very argument they use that the the Argument against homosexuality was merely culturally based at that particular point in time.

And it doesn't have anything to do with the modern situation. I just I was just on issues, etc barely an hour ago talking about this very issue in light of the episcopate the election of the Episcopalian bishop the first openly gay Episcopalian bishop in New Hampshire and I I pointed out that this is part and parcel of their argumentation is the the cultural relevance concept and that's what Patrick Madrid used now if you think that's a a valid argument then I guess you could you could say that Patrick Madrid did well in that debate, but I The people that I see saying that would never buy that argument from a homosexual.

The inconsistency is is very very clear. And so it's interesting that That this kind of presentations being made going back to the the James Aitken thing. We have twice tried to get James Aitken to do the Long Island debate.

I'm actually in correspondence right now Mr. Aitken on on the subject of doing the apocryphal because I think that that he'd probably be One of the better people to try to handle the that material. I haven't seen a whole lot of interest on his part is yet.

But next year's debate is beyond the apocrypha and everyone keeps saying just as what's said here. This person the web board says James Aitken can beat white in debate and he did so on the Bible answer man you know, I listen to those tapes of the Bible answer man program and I Can I can tell you that a lot of folks that I've heard that listen to that?

Yes. I'm sorry. That's Jimmy Aitken. I'm I'm sorry, but I'm just used to calling him that name, but he's officially formally changed his name and I need to Use his official name Jimmy Aitken. I Don't think it went nearly as well as they do.

But I guess the the fact the matter is since it was a radio discussion that never dwelt on any one subject long enough To get past surface level things. Well, we're gonna you know, we're gonna call it a debate.

It wasn't a debate. Quit calling it a debate. They they insist on doing so because well, I don't know why but they insist on doing so so. This particular post continues on as you noted above white is a skilled debater.

Wrong-headed but skilled dare. I make the comparison with Satan's skills as a wrong-headed debater. So if you're looking for someone to just demolish white in debate, that's not going to happen. But if one had to pick a winner, honestly, it would be Aitken for those reading who are unfamiliar with who Hank Hanegraaff is.

He is a moderately anti Catholic Protestant. He is also president of a moderately anti Catholic organization called CRI. He also hosts a radio show called the Bible Ants man where he enlightens his listeners with his personal opinions on what he thinks scripture.

Means he has guests such as white who do the same. I like that there is a form of pyrrhonism there I guess from his perspective. Unless the Magisterium tells you what the scriptures mean. You can't know what they mean, but of course then the problem is the Magisterium hasn't told you so well anyway.

Yes, I need to turn my my timers off here timers off there we go. For anyone unfamiliar with who James Aitken is he is senior apologist Catholic answers the Catholic evangelization Apologetic organization based in Southern, California.

There's someone who has listened to Catholic answers live a couple times too many. He is also for my money the best Catholic apologist in the country bar none including Han. And so he goes on from on from there, and he says but anyway give a listen to the debate.

It's good and Aitken does best white of course white scores his debating points. But that's all they are because he is a good debater, but Aitken actually wins the debate although. Maybe not every single battle within the debate.

But I think if time wasn't a factor he could and would prevail on every individual point. Well if that's the case you know I would like to see some debates with with James Aitken. We have certainly been open to do so, but so far have not been able to.

To arrange that the next guy is called buddy the Catholic buddy the Catholic. And he says as I stayed before in the who is your best Catholic apologist window James Aitken is just the previous person said get the debate tapes and Catholic answers get him from us.

In fact do we have that and I don't think we have that in mp3 as of yet posted anywhere. But maybe we do. I don't know you're that or it might be on straight gate. I don't know the Bible answer man program with the Jimmy Aitken.

Let's see and see for yourself. James Aitken does a great job. Not only defending the faith, but gives biblical answers and rebutting every single remark. James white gives well that let's stop right there.

That didn't happen it can't happen because of the format of the Bible answer man. There are times when he got the last word there are times when I got the last word so that's an untrue statement right there.

And Jake James Aitken even gives callers some things to think about as they question the beliefs of our Catholic faith. Also, I would highly recommend Pat Madrid versus James white on solo scriptura tapes in which you can purchase here at this site.

And I would like to add I think Tim Staples did an all-right job. Also on the Bible answer man with James white. But it seemed he was nervous and did not expect white to be so outspoken and Hank Hanegraaff to be so involved also.

Well, I'm not sure what he was expecting, but clearly by the Aitken versus white tapes, and you will be Relieved to see the Catholic Church is awesome. That's a buddy the Catholic buddy Rodriguez Rodriguez.

Yes, I I love very fair. You know analysis of things then Patrick Madrid weighed in. And he basically said Let me see here. He says I can understand that some people might wonder about this. I've attended some of these Catholic Protestant debates and have listened to audio tapes of a few others and the results have definitely been mixed in.

Some exchanges of matics and others. James white did very well though and others a Catholic debater clearly vanquished him. Not given any specifics there interestingly enough. And I see a little swipe at matics possibly.

Personally of the dozen or so major formal debates. I have engaged in with Protestants ministers Protestant Protestant ministers, it's just misspelled Mormon leaders, etc over the years. Two of those debates I had were with James white the first which took place in the fall of 1993 so soul scriptura about three hours second debate, Long Island and He says personally my view is that James Jim white didn't make his case much less win in either debate.

Nor could he since both positions he took in the debates, especially the one soul scriptura are simply untenable. True my own performance in each debate has imperfections and missteps, but overall I believe the Catholic teaching was amply vindicated in each exchange.

So Patrick Madrid claims to have won both of those debates. He then says he's not Obviously objective he's a subjective. So he mentions where the audio tapes are available from and Then you can buy them then someone named 5 .0 apologist.

Who says I'm a convert to Catholicism and sort of a debate junkie. I have it's available. Oh, it is available on mp3. Okay number 468. That's the one that the Bible answer. You know now that I mentioned it.

I remember that it is available. So hey y 'all might want to listen to it and you can not have to wait for a tape to download. I have tons of debates on tape and was in the audience of the communion of Saints debate.

I wonder if that's the fellow who who I might might be thinking it is. I don't know. Anyway, he makes a number of interesting statements in here. I've heard Patrick Madrid debate many times and he always does a great job.

I thought he presented a more solid case than did white. Of course, we have the truth which is the most important aspect of any debate but matchups or mismatches among seasoned debaters can heavily influence an untrained audience.

And of course, you know, I wonder what is what is untrained mean? Does that mean someone actually following the argument and dealing with the biblical information, I don't know. What is a smart man and a savvy debater?

So it is rare that he will get knocked out. So to speak Pat uses a nice relaxed speaking manner in conjunction with a quick wit to present his case. He is also no pushover when things get a little testy.

One of his best lines was on a prodding Protestant radio show. When these anti Catholics were quoting Catholic inventions and the dates that they were supposedly conjured up by the church Pat replied I wasn't aware.

This is comedy hour a great line to answer their ridiculous claims. It can be so easily that can so easily be dismissed. I stopped for a moment if I ever said anything like that. If you know whenever I use anything that could possibly be construed as humor the very same folks will Interpret that in the worst possible light, of course, but anyway both times that the Pat debated white I feel it Pat presented a more biblical and historical defense of his position.

The only time I saw what I would refer to as a knockout was when Pat and Keating debated soul scripture against Jackson and Nemec, well, you know what I finally get to agree with someone that's exactly right.

Of course, I would only point out and this is generally not known. Is that that debate with Jackson and Nemec in Denver in 1993 was only arranged after both Keating and Madrid declined my challenges to debate there and They just happened to arrange it for a night when they knew I could not be there the second night of the papacy debate.

Because I can guarantee you things would have been different had I been able to be there. So I've always found that to be somewhat Strange. Anyways, the Protestant side was terrible and to be fair if I were to present this to a possible convert I'd explain to them that this isn't the best representation of soul scripture from a Protestant perspective.

That's for sure. Keating is a great writer, but not a great debater. Madrid was by far the best debater that day. I have white debating some genus matatix Vin Lewis parentheses a madman. These clothes father packed with Tim Staples Aiken the Aiken white to be on the Hank Hanegraaff show was not a formal debate as white Says, but it was a great interaction.

I also have those two on a radio debate on perseverance, which by the way if you'll go back I don't remember when this was it was when a guy named Sivone was Posting our chat channel who called into Catholic answers live and asked James Aiken about the errors that he made in that debate.

Specifically the errors and the notes that he has posted on the EWTN website where he mangles Absolutely mangles the aorist tense the syntax the aorist tense you'll hear on this program on the dividing line that call and The demonstration that Aiken has absolutely no foundation whatsoever.

For the comments that he makes there he's been fully refuted on that but to my knowledge may not even be aware of that. I suppose I should maybe you know make him aware of that at some point, but I didn't.

Aiken is as bright as they come. I would like to see them debate in a formal setting though as would I. Staples white on solo scripture is won by Tim. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. White spent some of his time whining that the audience was too pro staples.

Which is surprising for such a seasoned debater. I don't remember anything like that at all. I do remember the audience misbehaving horribly and people yelling out things from the audience like the Eucharist.

But I don't remember any whining many Catholics go into hostile Protestant venues and don't complain about it. Oh Well, you've just you've missed the complaints. I guess I heard staples didn't do well in a papacy debate with white.

Understatement. I haven't heard it in the lost debate now. This is the thing that just blows me away in the lost debate art. Sippo did great against white on solo feed a excuse me. Excuse me, but um, this was all he said.

This was only part one and no one knows where part two can be found. No Catholic answers lost the tapes. So how in the world, you know how he did if you only have half of it that that absolutely amazes me.

I would love to hear it. Manatee is a good debater when He is prepared. Jerry is brilliant, but scatterbrained. He has done well against white even though he doesn't claim to have done so well many times himself.

That's me talking father. Paco a true scholar knows his stuff, but is almost too nice to soundly defeat white in a debate. So Janice always has done well against white whether it be a debate on solo feed a the papers of the math, etc.

Sometimes they can get very snippy with each other, which is fine. Vin Lewis did terrible. I thought in their radio debate. In conclusion, I don't think white will ever get knocked out by anyone. He is a savvy debater who is well prepared.

He talks smoothly. Hey, I don't talk nearly as smoothly as rich does. I don't have the rich Pierce pillow talk voice so I can't talk nearly as smoothly as Rich does. He talks smoothly so he comes across well and not choppy, but it is a shame that now.

Here's here's where I wanted to talk about this. It is a shame that he truly knows the Catholic position. But chose to follow Objective truth now, that's what it says. It I'm just reading it. It is a shame That he truly knows the Catholic position, but chose to follow objective truth.

Yeah, that's true. It's interesting an earlier person said. Oh misrepresentation misrepresentation this person says no. He he truly knows the Catholic position, but chose to follow objective truth. That's that's what I did now.

Listen to this now. Here's where the rumors go. Father pack what told me that? Madatics had a talk with white after a debate. Now, let's let's follow this one here. So this is a this is Allegedly coming to this fellow from Mitch Pacquiao.

Allegedly coming from Jerry Madatics. Okay that we had a discussion after a debate. Now, I know that Jerry. Let me see. I'm trying to think of discussions of Jerry after debates. I can't think of any.

I mean Rich can rich may remember the discussion after the papacy debate in Denver where we both rich and I were standing there and All my stuff was all packed up in a. I had all these volumes the early church fathers.

And I I had packed them up in this in fact the sitting right here next to my left foot this this book bag and All my stir. I had two book bags and they were on my six-foot table. And that was all it was.

There was two packed up book bags the put the chair was pushed in and we look over at Jerry's table and You cannot see any of the wood of Jerry's table. There's yellow notepads and pieces of paper and books half open and all this stuff and then under.

Under the the the table the only place you could see the carpet was where his feet had been. I mean this is it is a disaster area and we did have a conversation then because he looked at rich and I who were looking at him and his table and he said okay you win you win the organization competition and We sort of had a chuckle about that.

But anyways he goes on to say Father Pacwa told me that Maddox had a talk with white after debate. Jerry said James the cameras are off and the crowd is gone. You can't honestly say the loo of all the facts that you truly believe that Peter is not the rock.

Referred to in Matthew 16 James said of course I know that Peter is the rock. But I'm simply presenting the Protestant position. End quote. Sad if true. Well Let me tell you let me see. Is this 5 .0 5 .0 apologist.

Not true. That's called rumor mongering. No such conversation has ever taken place. And if you'll simply listen to the material that I've presented in the debates With Jerry and with Mitch Pacwa on the subject of the papacy.

No. That's not what I believe now. Why would someone you know what fascinates me is the is the mindset behind someone who would repeat? This fourth fifth hand. Why even say something like this. Is it just desperation.

Is it just trying to explain. Because you know think about it from a Roman Catholic perspective. I should not be able to do what I do. I Mean if Rome is what Rome claims it is. Then I should not be able to go toe-to-toe with these people.

Mitch Pacwa knows 12 languages for crying out loud. He I should not be able to go toe-to-toe with these people. If Rome is what Rome claims it. It is to be. It shouldn't happen. So this seems to be the way that people explain the stat of true to an unknowing audience.

James will twist the writings of the fathers and play to the audience and the examples given. Nope. Recently James listen to this recently James said that Luther never claimed that James is a pistol straw.

That's baloney. I've never said anything like that at all. What I said was Luther did not remove it from the canon and In fact in his later years quoted from the epistle of James numerous times. Completely different thing but getting people to actually you know.

Say something honest is hard. Our online apologists like Apollonio and Mike Burnett pointed out with footnotes. This was not the case. Well if it came from Apollonio, then you know where it got misunderstood.

And so on so forth I'll go on with the with the next one here. When we take our break and continue looking at this fascinating thread and how people hear or don't hear Debates. We'll be right back.

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Further Discussion of the Message Board Thread

And welcome back to the dividing line. My name is James White. We're just doing something a little different tonight we're looking at a a thread of posts from Roman Catholics on the Envoy website about to myself and about our debates it's it's interesting to me to listen to what people have to say and to see the responses and.

The next one actually the next post is from my sister. Of course. She thinks that Patrick Madrid Madrid did real well because my only leg to stand on was solo scriptura. Which has no legs to stand on thus making my whole argument a lame-duck.

So I guess demonstrating that Lottery and Julia cannot be distinguished and that mr. Madrid's position would then make all of the Bible's arguments against Homosexuality and things like that Irrelevance is is wrong because solo scriptura is is not defensible.

We are told that The problem with debates is that so often the Protestants come with no actual knowledge of what the Catholic Church is or teaches. Well, of course I would say most Catholics come without any knowledge of what Protestants believe either unless they're Former Protestants and even then somehow they frequently get twisted.

They have never understood tradition or church history. And so James's arguments sound comfortable and familiar and are drawn completely from the prejudices He and they were raised with so I guess when I presented arguments, for example Drawn from Roman Catholic sources in the debate with Mitch Pacwa a couple weeks ago.

Demonstrating that they say that the concept of priesthood was something that developed over time. And that this use of presbyteros was not found the first century and when I refuted every use Mitch Pacwa made of Clement for example that you know.

That's just my prejudices that I was raised with is my knowledge of the early church fathers. But anyway. And Then then and this is this is where I I wish I I actually tried to get in touch with this fellow.

A fellow who has indeed been in our channel, but it's been about 12 days. Who comes in with a the Nick coach, but the O is not an O. It's a zero C zero ACH he posts on this website as coach Mick Mick McGurk I guess is the is how you'd say it's people's names on websites and boards and in channels are Strange, of course.

I mean mine's dr. Oakley. So what can I say? I Wanted to say that I really appreciated coaches Participation in this particular dialogue. Here's someone who obviously I think has has read a lot of my material he's in what I have read has accurately Represented my position in a very fair way and I would just like to say I really appreciate it.