Aug. 13, 2015 Show with Chelsen Vicari on her book “Distortion: How the New Christian Left is Twisting the Gospel and Damaging the Faith” & Latayne C. Scott on “Abortion: You Never Know Whose Life is Taken Every Time”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

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Now here's our host.

Well, good afternoon Cumberland Valley, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living

on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Wednesday.

I'm August, 2015, and I

am very excited about today's program.

We're going to have two dynamic Christian women, each on for one

hour, and they are going to be addressing some very vital topics.

To start off the two -hour broadcast today, for the first hour, we have Chelson

Vicari, who is our guest to discuss her new book,

Distortion, How the New Christian Left is Twisting the Gospel and Damaging the Faith.

And then following our interview with Chelson, starting at 5 p .m. Eastern time,

we're having my old friend Latine C. Scott.

She is going to be discussing abortion and why you never know whose

life is taken every time an abortion occurs.

And Latine C. Scott is no stranger to the Iron Sharpens Iron audience from years past, when we had

the original Iron Sharpens Iron between 2006 and 2011.

And she is a former Mormon who, by the grace of Jesus Christ, converted to Christianity,

and she has been serving him very well ever since as an author and speaker

and teacher.

And I'm very delighted to have Latine return to the Iron Sharpens Iron program.

But let me, for the first time, introduce our guest, Chelson Vicari,

and it is my honor and privilege to introduce her to the Iron Sharpens Iron program.

She serves as the Institute of Religion and Democracy's Evangelical Program

Director, and as I said earlier, she has written a book, Distortion, How the New Christian

Left is Twisting the Gospel and Damaging the Faith.

And according to Todd Starnes, a host on Fox News and commentary author, God

Bless America, that's L -E -S -S, he says, at a time when religious

liberty is increasingly coming under attack, the church needs prophetic voices like Chelson

Vicari's.

And I welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron, Chelson Vicari.

Hello, Chris.

Hello, Iron Sharpens Iron listeners.

It is a pleasure to be here.

I'm really excited.

About our hour -long discussion today.

Yes, so am I, and I'm sure many of our listeners are as well.

In fact, I have to give a shout -out to a very dear friend of mine, Pastor Ron

Glass, who is the pastor of Wading River Baptist Church in eastern Suffolk County,

Long Island, not very far from the Hamptons.

And Pastor Ron Glass is the one that eagerly and enthusiastically urged me to interview

Chelson today and introduced me to her book that we

are addressing today.

And for those of you who are living in eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, or you're going to visit

there, or you have friends or family or loved ones that you'd like to refer to this church because

they live nearby, Wading River Baptist Church's website is

wrbc .us, wrbc for wadingriverbaptistchurch .us.

And you can hear more about or learn more about Pastor Ron Glass's own radio

show that he hosts called the River of Life broadcast that

broadcasts out in eastern Suffolk County and worldwide over the internet.

So that's wrbc .us.

But first of all, Chelson Vicari, before we even go into your book or into

the organization that you are involved in there in Washington, D .C., tell us something about your own

background.

Yeah, so I was born to two very young sinners

who had a very tumultuous marriage early on.

And they were headed for destruction.

I mean, personally, their marriage.

So they wandered into a local church just desperately seeking help for themselves and for their marriage.

And that's where they found Christ.

I was about eight years old and so raised in an Assembly of God church ever since.

And then now I attend a Baptist church actually in the D .C. area.

So I just prefer to say I'm evangelical.

Generally, I'm evangelical.

I've seen it all, experienced it all, tried it all.

I don't know if it's Capitol Hill Baptist Church that you are a part of, but I happen to be familiar with that one.

It's not, but you know, if I lived closer to Capitol Hill Baptist, I would definitely go there.

Lots of friends that go there.

But I also have been to Triumph, D .C., and also another Baptist church in Falls

Church where I live, and that's the church I attend now.

Great.

Well, tell us something about the Institute on Religion and Democracy.

What is your responsibility as the evangelical program director?

Yeah, so it's the IRD for short, and we have a very unique role

within the conservative Christian movement, which is what drew me from Concerned Women

for America, where I worked for three years prior, right out of grad school, to IRD.

I was so focused on what was happening on Capitol Hill and with legislation and

really wanting to advocate biblical principles there, and that's absolutely necessary.

But then I learned that there was an organization that was focused on the root of the problem, which we

know that sin is a major issue that is causing the issues we have at the local, state, and federal

level, right?

It goes a bit back to sin.

And then I learned that there are churches who are actually advocating these particular sins, are at

least staying silent on sin, and that's a huge root of the problem.

So what IRD does is it monitors the church, and it reports on cultural issues that

affect the church, and we seek to reform those churches who capitulate to culture

and who are actually staying silent on sins, or in some cases advocating

for sins like abortion or same -sex marriage.

So that is what I do.

So I particularly am the director of the evangelical program, so I monitor

the new Christian left.

So many of your listeners have probably heard of the religious left, but that's largely mainline

denomination leaders who compromised Orthodox or traditional Christian teaching.

But now we have a lot of younger evangelicals or evangelical leaders, or

really just mainline young leaders dressed up as evangelicals or

feeding this repackaged version of Christianity to evangelicals.

So that's what I monitor.

So I work very hard to empower young evangelicals not to remain silent

on abortion or the harvesting of unborn baby parts or radical feminism or the

deterioration of family or whatever it is, the attack on religious liberty.

I try and be a voice educating my fellow evangelicals out there on what Scripture actually says, how

social science affirms that teaching, and why we actually have to have a strong social.

Witness.

Well I want to, I'm sure I'll repeat it throughout the broadcast, but I want to make sure that I get it done

right now.

If I happen to forget, the website for the organization that Chelson

is a program director for is theird

.org.

So that should be simple enough for you to remember, but jot it down

because I'm sure you're going to want to visit that website often.

That's the Institute on Religion and Democracy.

You just mentioned a term that might be foreign to some of our listeners,

the new Christian left.

People very often in conservative evangelical circles or fundamentalist circles would

say that that's oxymoronic, that those two words, Christian and left,

are in polar opposition to one another.

But if you could give a definition of what you mean by the new Christian left and how it may be

different from the old mainline Christian left that started out with the

higher criticism movement in Germany and so forth in the 19th century and just continued to steamroller

through denominations one by one.

In the earlier part of the 20th century.

Right, so in many cases the Christian left is really just a liberal

movement cloaked in Christianity, one where for most cases God's

supremacy can be diminished or inconsistencies in scripture are painted, or truth,

and this one's the one that we deal with mostly or see mostly, is that truth is made relative.

You have listeners who may have heard of red -letter Christians, Christians who no longer look to the

Old Testament or even the Pauline text.

They specifically just look at literally the red text of Jesus, and those are the only scripture

verses that they apply to themselves.

So when I'm talking about the Christian left, there can be two different kinds.

The most common is cafeteria -style Christians on the left, and they're the ones who tend to treat

scripture like the Shoney's buffet line, walking down it, picking and choosing which scripture verses to apply to

their lives, which ones not to.

So they'll often apply scripture verses that don't put them at odds with popular culture today,

and that's what we saw with the mainline leaders on the religious left.

Or we have, on the other hand, we have the couch potatoes Christians on the left, and they're the ones who, yes,

they see injustices, but they stay silent and encourage others to do so as well.

But most common, most popular, and when I'm talking about the Christian left, I'm really talking about the cafeteria -style

Christians on the left, or who lean left politically.

So again, they will exclude mentions of sin or hell or transformation from their sermons

or lectures on Sunday School or blogs or whatever their platform is.

And you'll hear them using liberal political buzzwords like tolerance and coexist and

political correctness, and they portray this very hippie -like portrait of Jesus, right?

And so they don't, again, they don't focus on sin per se, or let's use same

-sex marriage as an example.

Many on the Christian left advocate for same -sex marriage as a union that can be blessed by God.

Instead of saying, you know, Genesis chapter 2, Jesus, the Pauline text, they actually do

show that God's model for marriage is between one man and one woman.

So we're seeing, basically, boiled down for an easy definition, I

usually say that the Christian left is a very liberal political ideology,

draped in Christian.

Tone.

Yes, that's how liberalism has always made a lot of headway in the United States from its

inception.

And would you include in that group of

the new Christian left, even the more hardcore leftists and liberals

like the so -called evangelical homosexual movement, being

led predominantly in the spotlight right now by Matthew Vines and others, and the

Metropolitan Church movement, where they will have a worship service that may, in many respects,

appear identical to your typical evangelical worship service or charismatic worship

service, but in fact they are teaching people that homosexuality, at the very

least monogamous homosexuality, is acceptable to God and should not be opposed in

any way, shape, or form.

Would you include that in that camp of the new Christian left?

I would absolutely include.

Matthew Vines in the Christian left.

Sometimes you'll hear me say evangelical left, and that is because they themselves will define

themselves as evangelicals.

But again, that's often done not because they are on street corners trying to

evangelize and spread the gospel.

It's done largely because there is a huge audience, when you're talking about evangelicals, especially young evangelicals,

that's a big audience that is very receptive to their political ideology.

Yeah, I was very shocked recently when I... I'm not going to mention the

name of the university because they don't have somebody here to represent them and defend

themselves, but I was shocked not long ago to see

an advertisement for a very well -known university known for evangelical

Christianity that was having a symposium or conference on the church's response

to homosexuality, which is obviously not a bad thing in and of itself, but the

way that it was being conducted, they even included a woman

minister who was advocating that homosexuality in

and of itself was not a sin, and I saw a video recently on

YouTube promoting this woman's church, who was one of the teachers at this

symposium, and one member after another was identifying themselves as gay

and Christian.

But we can continue on to that specific area of our discussion a little later about the

homosexual community, which is a phrase that I despise.

I don't believe there is a homosexual community.

That there are people involved in homosexual activities.

They're not in a community as if they're an ethnic group or nationality.

But your book, Distortion, it provides an interesting look at evangelical Christianity through the

eyes of a millennial, and for those of you listening who know that I'm having our eschatology week

next week, I'm not referring to anything in regard to the millennium

prophesied in the scriptures.

A millennial is someone, as many or most of you know, who came to adulthood

around the year 2000, at the dawn of the new century, and

in your introduction, you say that American grown -ups, America's grown -ups, who

have the ability to influence and pray for young Christians, must not declare defeat and give up on us.

Instead, they must start understanding and confronting the false partisan teachings influencing the

next generation of evangelicals and take back America's Christian culture.

What are the false and partisan teachings to which you're referring?

I know you already mentioned some, but do you have any more that you'd like to address?

Yeah, well, when I wrote that, I was thinking of a lot of the, quote, grown -ups in the church,

who I know you look around and you think, okay, something is wrong with the younger evangelicals in this

church, or in my town, or what have you, and you think, why is their

worldview so off when it comes to traditional Christian teaching that has been agreed

upon over millennia?

What is going on?

So I wrote Distortion, and I wrote that particular headline because,

not because I'm some wonderful religion analyst, but because I actually bought into

distorted Christian teaching when I was in college, and so that's why I wanted to write Distortion.

It was because I wanted to give readers or radio listeners a glimpse into

the world of what does it look like to be a millennial evangelical right now, and it can be a bit tough.

It's very confusing.

So, well, first off, to start, I don't want to put all the blame on the Christian left itself.

So when I say, look, grown -ups, don't give up on us millennials, I mean that because I

do think there are a lot of pastors and lay leaders who have given up on

discipleship of younger Christians, or maybe discipleship wasn't done very well,

and we focused more, and I say this humbly and respectfully, but I do think in many evangelical

churches, we focused more on evangelizing at our coffee and donut time before

service than we did actually tackling tough issues that young people,

that adults in the church actually deal with, like abortion.

How do we deal with a post -abortive woman?

How do we deal with someone struggling with same -sex attraction?

What are we doing?

And we ignored those issues in our Sunday school lessons and our youth group, we just didn't

talk about them.

So what happened was that allowed the Christian left and their ideologies and agendas to

come in and fill a void.

So when we're confused about what Scripture says about same -sex marriage, and I will say

that's because a lot of young Christians don't actually pick up their Bible and read what it says, then they're listening to the

opinions and interpretations of the Christian left, and they're buying in and saying, well, you know, I

really feel bad if I have to tell my friend who says they're gay that I believe marriage

is between one man and one woman.

They're going to get offended, it's going to hurt their feelings, they're going to call me uncompassionate.

The worst word in the world for a millennial to hear or be called is uncompassionate.

So when the Christian left comes along and says, oh, you know that actually to be compassionate like

Jesus is to affirm same -sex relationships and marriage, you buy in.

And I don't say that in a condemnation type of way.

I say it because I, again, bought into it.

I'll never forget when I was in college, coming back from a family vacation, Chris, and my parents were in the car,

and I had been going to this new campus ministry while I was in college, and it

wasn't overtly Christian left by any means, but there were particular leaders who were.

And so I had friends who were gay in this Christian ministry.

I loved them very much.

And because we weren't talking about sexual sin of any kind, and I'm not just talking about same -sex

marriage, I'm talking about premarital sex or pornography or what have you, I just began to say or

to believe those Christian writers that I was reading, oh, you know, you can be gay and you can be a

Christian and there's nothing sinful about same -sex relationships.

So I was fighting and yelling at my parents and telling them they were old -fashioned and outdated and bigoted and hateful, and all

those words that I had heard churned over and over again.

I was studying political science, so I'd heard those terms used politically, but now I was hearing them in the Church, and so it

sounded right, it made me feel enlightened and progressive, so I bought in.

And so that's what's happening with younger evangelicals, and that's what I try and expose

and explore, not just, again, with the same -sex issue.

I talk about the topic of Israel, I talk about the topic of religious liberty, Christian persecution,

radical feminism.

There are a lot of social justice, what does the social justice movement look like and mean?

And there are some things that are going wrong even within that phrasing, so I do delve into

what's going on, I say, behind the hip Church appearance.

Yeah, that's a great description.

I'm going to give our email address if you are a listener and you'd like to ask Chelsen a question

about her book and about our topic, Distortion, How the New Christian Left is

Twisting the Gospel and Damaging the Faith.

The email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R

-N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

And please give your first name, at least, and, in fact, I've got a surprise for you.

If you're one of the first four listeners who send in a question that is good enough to be read

on air, that is relevant to the topic, you're going to receive a free copy of Chelsen's book, Distortion,

How the New Christian Left is Twisting the Gospel and Damaging the Faith.

So if you'd like to get a copy and you have a question that is relevant to the topic,

and that is a good question, and it's read on air, you'll get a free copy.

So include your mailing address, and I'm sorry we have to restrict this free offer to our

United States listeners.

We love to hear from you in Canada and in Europe and other places overseas, South

Africa and other places that we've received listener emails from, and we urge you to please

continue, today even, to send in your questions, no matter where you live in the world, but we can only give the free

books to the United States listeners due to a sponsor who ships them out

and cannot be overwhelmed with rapidly mounting overseas shipping charges.

You know, you brought up an issue that I don't know what your personal view on this is,

but there is a thing called the youth group movement that has been popular for

a number of decades and very often will isolate the

teenage Christians or teenage members or the children of members

in the congregations into their own church atmosphere where their music is more

lively and they do fun things, recreational activities, and of course

I'm not against any of that, and I know that there is debate in the body of Christ about

whether these youth group activities should be conducted almost as a separate entity,

like a separate church, but the fact is that very often in these youth group

outreaches and so on, you will have a person that is not much older than the youth that are

going to these activities, and it seems when I have been exposed to some of them, and

please I'm not broad -brushing, I know that there's probably many that are absolutely wonderful, when I've been exposed to some of them,

it seems the main message that they are declaring is you can be cool and be a

Christian.

Go out and tell your friends in high school and in your neighborhood that being a

Christian is cool, you can be a Christian and go bowling and play softball and go square dancing and

all these different things, and you can listen to modern music and be cool and be a

Christian, and therefore, of course when I just mentioned square dancing, I just aged myself, there's

probably nothing cool about square dancing, but you know what I mean,

they don't have to live like they're in a monastery, which of course that

is true as well, but do you see a danger in some of the way that the youth group movement is

handling.

The education of our youth?

You know, as far as should we have youth groups separate or not, I really don't have a dog in that particular

fight.

I see the benefits of both sides of the argument, I see good and bad.

I would say what bothers me more is the leadership put over the youth,

right, so we don't, again, it goes back to the discipleship issue.

I don't see discipleship happening in youth groups.

What I see is, and what I experienced, and I will say that when I was in high school, I loved my youth group, but I'll be honest,

I went because we had pizza, we had games beforehand, I got to talk to friends, I

heard a very squishy sermon that was very, it made me feel good

about myself, it didn't really challenge me at all, and then afterwards we had more pizza and

punch and I left.

So I think that formula is becoming archaic and it's

ineffective.

I will say that.

I do not, so I do not advocate for the pizza party, let's

attract as many youth as we can to just get them here in the church, you know, like the old

switch and bait, just get them here and then we'll share Jesus with them and they'll become a Christian.

I didn't, I don't see that being effective.

What I do see effective are leaders who are serious about sharing the gospel with

youth enough that they're willing to be consistent and take millennials or high school students under their wing

and show them what it means to be a Christian, to live out the example, to talk about the hard stuff.

They go to the students, they don't lure them in with pizza, you know what I mean?

So I do think our formula needs to change a bit.

You mentioned, you know, there's just questionable teaching.

Yeah, that's my biggest concern.

I see a lot of cheap grace when it comes to, it was Dietrich Bonhoeffer, he used that phrase, by

the way, cheap grace in Sunday school.

So we'll talk about God's love and grace and mercy and all that, which is wonderful,

it's certainly important, but there is two sides to the coin, right?

We have God's love and mercy and grace because there is sin in the world and brokenness,

and we need our lives transformed and saved by Christ.

But I don't hear us talking about the negative side of the coin.

So I'm not sure that young evangelicals fully understand the totality of the

gospel, what it means to die to ourself, to lay down our own desires to follow Christ,

what it means to be persecuted in the name of Christ, to know that like Christ Himself

said, that like me, they're going to hate you, and what it

actually looks like to live in the world, but not of the world.

Or to do like what in Ephesians 4 .15 Paul says, to speak the truth in love.

So I see a lot of, well, let's talk about love, let's be loving, but I don't hear much

about truth.

And there is a way to balance that I've had to learn myself, that I've struggled and wrestled with, and you see that towards the end of

distortion, me working through this idea of speaking the truth in love, that it doesn't look

like lying to my friends about their sin, because that's not showing them love.

So I think that youth groups need to focus in on the curriculums that they're using,

maybe reconsider them, maybe reconsider that the strategy they're using to try and share the gospel, because

they don't think the pizza parties are working.

We're going to go to a break right now.

If you have a question for Chelsen Vacari, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

We already have a couple of listeners who have sent in questions that we'll get to after the break.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away, we'll be right back with Chelsen Vacari and the discussion on her book, Distortion, How

the New Christian Left is Twisting the Gospel and Damaging the Faith.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arms.

And if you've just tuned us in, our guest today is Chelson Vicari.

And we are discussing her book, Distortion, How the New Christian Left is Twisting the Gospel and

Damaging the Faith.

And before I move on with that interview, I just want to announce that Chelson's boss,

Mark Tooley, who is the president of IRD, the Institute for

Religion and Democracy, or the Institute on Religion and Democracy, he is going to be discussing

taking back the United Methodist Church, a denomination, as most of you may know,

has been overrun with liberalism.

And yet Mark Tooley and others are hanging in there in the denomination, seeking,

by God's grace, to transform it.

And he is going to be talking about that book, Taking Back the United Methodist Church.

That's Mark Tooley, who also for eight years worked for the CIA.

And I'm not speaking about the Culinary Institute of America.

I'm talking about for the Central Intelligence Agency.

So it should be a fascinating interview tomorrow.

And the week after, as I was mentioning, we have Eschatology Week, actually for six days, from the 17th

of August to the 24th of August.

We're going to have different representatives of all of the major end times views

or last days views.

Every day, there will be a different representative defending his position

on eschatology.

So I know that should be fascinating to many of you.

And I want to welcome to Iron Sharpens Iron, our newest sponsor, Providence Baptist Church in

Norfolk, Massachusetts.

Pastor Mark Lukens has been a loyal listener of Iron Sharpens Iron since back in the earlier

days between 2006 and 2011.

And when he learned that we were relaunched and on the air again, he rallied support

from his church to provide monthly sponsorship for this program for a year.

And we want to thank those folks from the bottom of our hearts for their sponsorship.

ProvidenceBaptistChurchMA .org is their website.

ProvidenceBaptistChurchMA, for Massachusetts, dot o -r -g.

Once again, I want to let you know about our email address if you have a

question.

It is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

Chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

And before I move on to the listener questions, Chelson, you begin your book by saying this,

peek behind the curtain of some hip or progressive evangelical churches, pass the savvy

technology in secular music, and you will find more than just a contemporary worship service.

You'll find faith leaders encouraging young evangelicals to trade in their Christian convictions for a gospel

filled with compromise.

They're slowly attempting to give evangelicalism an update, and the change is not for the good.

You also say that the sad truth is that the ideological gulf between America's

evangelical grown -ups and their kids, aka the millennials, seem to be widening

too.

Can you explain this in more detail?

What is the gospel filled with compromise, which is the ideological gulf that you mentioned,

and why should older church members be.

Very concerned about this?

Absolutely.

So the Christian West theology usually looks like this.

It looks like accepting same -sex behavior and lifestyle, questioning scripture's authority, so

sometimes even denying that some parts of it were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Others will say that liberating women from their supposed place of oppression in the church and home needs to be the

focus of our sermons, or expanding the federal nanny state welfare programs is a tenet of Christianity,

or thwarting climate change, or gun control.

These are all theological issues.

Well, that's not core to the gospel, and many of those, especially when we're talking about abortion or

same -sex marriage, that's very clear -cut in scripture, right and wrong.

It's black and white, and some are saying, no, there are gray areas, and we have to explore those gray areas.

And the reason why I say this is bad, and why the older generation should be concerned,

is because we know where this progressive, liberal version of Christianity gets us.

It gets us declined, actually, in our church numbers.

So while many people are compromising scripture, especially pastors and lay leaders, because they think

it will bring in people to the churches and fill the pews, it doesn't, which I know is very

surprising, because it surprised me.

So you think, oh, I'm going to tell the world that my Bible Belt Evangelical

Church now says the Holy Spirit told me that same -sex marriage is a union blessed by God, so I

expect to see my congregation grow.

Well, the reality is, churches that are doing that actually see a decline.

So last summer, I did a study on churches in Washington, D .C., which ones are growing, and

which ones are on the decline?

The churches that are dying, as a denomination, are those mainline, liberal

denominations that have a very progressive version of Christianity that they are teaching.

I mean, they're the churches that have the rainbow banner flags outside, saying we affirm, you know, basically we

affirm every lifestyle.

Not just that we welcome, because I will say, every church should be welcoming to sinners.

That's where sinners should be wandering in, like my parents, off the street into churches, but not

affirming.

And so anyway, those churches have maybe 30, 50 people on a given Sunday.

The Orthodox, conservative, traditional churches that are supposedly so outdated, those are the

churches, though, that are growing, that are spilling over with young people, too, young

families.

They're doing something right, and I truly believe it's because God is blessing the faithful, and he's not

blessing those who are not being faithful.

I was just going to say that it's because, you know, people,

they'll go maybe for, you'll see a short spurt of attendance, maybe, if you've made this polarizing

statement, going against traditional Christianity, but if you can, if truth is relative,

even when it comes to Christianity, why are you going to stay going to this church?

You're not.

You're not.

You want discipleship.

You want accountability.

I mean, our souls crave this, right?

So to go to a church where anything goes, well, you're not going to get up on Sunday morning and to go and just

feel good about yourself continually.

You're going to sleep in and go.

To brunch.

That's how it works.

Yeah, I'm assuming that's why the mainline liberal churches are dying numerically,

because why go to church if none of this really matters?

If the God that you're allegedly worshipping may or may not even exist,

and all these things that the Christians of old have viewed

as sinful are really okay, you know, what do we need to repent for?

What do we need to ask forgiveness for?

Who are we worshipping?

And I could just see that this is a ridiculous

blueprint to imitate the churches if they've already seen it's a proven disaster, just like

Marxism becoming more and more popular here in the United States amongst

politicians.

Of course, they never call it that, but where this has been failed, this has been a

failed way to govern a people all over the world, a proven

failed way to operate a country, and yet we have, you know, people

in our own nation here imitating that.

Exactly.

So if the self can determine truth for itself, well, people are selfish innately, so they're

going to live according to how they want, and you're right.

There's no reason to go and think about repentance and be contemplative about your actions or corporate

prayer.

No,.

There's no reason for it anymore.

Yeah, the higher that a theology raises man in his goodness

and righteousness, and the lower that theology makes God, he is not a God worthy of worship,

nor do people feel a urgent need or desire to worship him or her, as

the case may be with liberalism.

So it's just a ridiculous blueprint to be following.

We do have a question from Bruce in Farmingville, New York.

If a pastor of an evangelical church is pro -choice or pro homosexual, what should neighboring

pastors who are holding steadfast to scripture do in their response to these unbiblical

actions of their neighboring colleagues?

Sure, well, I would follow.

Scripture's instructions and say that it would be helpful if those pastors went,

if you're a pastor, or you are a pastor, go to this particular pro -choice pastor, talk with him, ask him

where he gets his theology from, and of course be prepared, like Paul says,

to show where there is distorted teaching.

And if that doesn't work, then I would say, I would personally want to talk to

the pastor, because this is a critical issue.

If we are not willing to stand up for the most vulnerable among us, the

unborn, then how is our pastor going to teach us to stand up for other injustices out there?

I don't see how that will work.

So I really encourage, if you're a lay leader or a pastor, to go to this particular pastor, set up a meeting,

talk with him, of course be ready to to use apologetics to show where he's gotten things

wrong in a graceful way, right?

Speak the truth and love to him.

And maybe you have friends in that particular congregation.

Ask them if they know that their pastor is pro -choice, and ask them to bring this up.

I mean, this is a congregation, and he's implosing the entire congregation.

This is something not to take lightly.

But I would start with the pastor, talking to him in private, and then if that doesn't work,.

Then appeal to the congregation.

By the way, for those of our listeners who are out on Long Island, I just want to let you know that the Long

Island Family Coalition, the Long Island Remnant Awakening, and other Long Island

pro -life groups are inviting you and your congregation to join them at a peaceful pro -life

demonstration that will demand an end to the horror of abortion and the government funding of Planned

Parenthood.

They're going to be having that peaceful demonstration in front of U .S. Senator Chuck Schumer's office,

which is located at 145 Pine Lawn Road in Melville, Long Island, this Monday,

August 17th, starting at 11 a .m.

And if you'd like more information about this event, you can reach the Long Island

Family Coalition chairman, Pastor Bruce Bennett, on his cell phone, 631

-806 -0614, 631 -806

-0614, or at PastorBruce at

optonline .net.

That's PastorBruce at O -P as in Peter, T as in Thomas, online .net.

So that's a very worthwhile endeavor to be involved in, obviously.

And we do have another listener, this one from Fort Myers, Florida.

Mike in Fort Myers, Florida.

Hi there, Chelson.

I recently learned of your new book, Distortion.

In view of the Christian left, would you please briefly delve into the doctrine between faith and

policy and its influential basis that it has derived from?

Thank you.

Do you know exactly what our listener is speaking of?

I'm not exactly sure I followed.

I'm sorry.

He says, would you please briefly delve into its doctrine and policy?

The doctrine, the, delve into the, its doctrine between faith and policy,

the Christian left.

If you can't answer that or it doesn't, isn't clear enough, we'll just have Mike send us a new

question.

Oh, no, sure.

So there are certainly differences and there's a huge spectrum though when it comes

to the Christian left.

So it would depend on who we're talking about, but I would say, in large part,

the Christian left would say that they, that the scripture was written by men, not necessarily

influenced by the Holy Spirit, and therefore is up for interpretation.

It's not necessarily, it's not doctrine because it's not, it doesn't serve as a guide for Christian

living.

I've heard them say this, that the scripture doesn't serve as a guide for Christian living.

So therefore, again, like we were talking about earlier, it's all relative, and so then everything

is up for debate and nitpicking and reconsideration.

I might not be answering your question right.

I will say I'm not a theologian.

I am a public policy and religion analyst.

So I'd be happy to somehow, if Chris, if you could connect us, maybe we could,.

The gentleman and I could talk further about this online.

Oh yeah, sure, sure, that would be fine.

And we do have another listener.

We have Susan in Newville, Pennsylvania.

Do you think that the reason why leftism is on the rise

within so -called or self -professed evangelical Christianity

is because it has a facade of being more compassionate and loving

and forgiving than conservative evangelicalism, and in their minds is more of a

reflection of the true attributes of.

Jesus Christ?

Excellent question.

That's well said.

The lady is absolutely right in many ways that the religious right of the 70s and

the 80s and even the early 90s, in younger evangelicals' minds, that's very

harsh, their tone is very strident, and we want nothing to do with that, right?

So unfortunately we're confusing, we don't like the tone, so therefore in many ways we're dismissing

the truth of the message.

Which is what I'm trying very hard to to work against, right?

That's why I talk about Ephesians 415 all the time.

There is a way to soften our tone, to be loving, but to still stand firm for

biblical principles.

I will absolutely stand by that, and sometimes that loses us friends.

I've lost two friends in particular because I was speaking the truth in love.

But yes, there is a facade of the Christian left that it's compassionate, it looks more like Jesus and the religious right,

therefore the principles they're talking about are also true.

It's not necessarily.

The case, depending on what the issue is.

And I think after reading over Mike from Fort Myers, Florida, reading over his question

again, I think what he means is, is there a difference between the theological

beliefs of the Christian left and what they actually practice in public?

Perhaps that's what he's trying to say, delving into the doctrine between faith and

policy.

You know, I think that the Christian left is motivated by well -intentioned feelings.

I think they truly have big hearts, and they care about those in need.

So when they talk about the LGBTQI community, they really

care about those, quote, being marginalized.

So I do think they're trying to be compassionate in life, but I think that causes them to drive their

theology a certain direction.

And I do think it causes them to nitpick, cherry -pick which scripture verses they.

Apply in their life and their theology.

Yeah, you have for quite a long time had liberals who say whether they're being honest or not is another

question, but you have had liberals say, I am personally against abortion,

and I am personally opposed to homosexuality.

But I think the loving and compassionate thing to do is, in a

free country, to let those issues be decided between a person,

and their minister, and their own understanding of who God is.

I'm not doing...

Oh, right.

Perhaps that's what the listener was meaning, but between the different...

Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

And if that's what he meant, then surely I've seen this.

At the conservative Christian graduate school that I went to, I knew of a woman who,

while she would say she's pro -life, happily drove her friend to the abortion clinic because she

wanted to be compassionate.

Well, there's something wrong with this picture that's not being compassionate to your friend or

to the unborn child.

Again, I get very passionate about the abortion issue, but

it's not compassionate, it's not Christ -like, because we're just dismissing what scripture

says in order to make our...

It really comes down to, she made herself feel better because she drove her friend to the clinic.

Right, and then there's a murder taking place, and not only a murder, a very torturous and brutal and

barbaric one.

So that's just a smoke screen of the left, and it always has been, and it's

just disturbing, as you said.

Where are the millennials attending our churches on the major social issues today?

Issues like, as you were saying, the LGBT thing, abortion and politics.

Is there any improvement going on with the millennials in churches today?

Yes, abortion is actually an issue, and I know you've probably talked about this, Chris, where

millennials' hearts and minds are completely different than generations before them when it comes to abortion.

They're overwhelmingly pro -life.

My concern is that they're not being convictional about it, though.

So, like we were talking earlier, yes, I'm so glad that my generation is more pro -life

than ever before, but I want them to be convictional about it.

I want them to stand up and talk about the harms abortion has on women.

I want them to be willing to give support to women who have had abortions and pray with them,

but to not deny the reality that this was a murder, right?

I'm optimistic about the future because my generation

is changing its mind as far as abortion goes, because again, if we're not willing to stand up for

vulnerable life, then there's no social justice issue out there that we're going to actually stand up

on as far as leaving our Twitter screens, you know?

I mean, beyond the social media activism.

I mean, actually doing something that is loving and compassionate and also shares the Gospel uncompromised,

and abortion is that issue.

So I encourage older Christians to not be afraid to talk about it.

I'm certainly not.

I'm a Sunday school teacher.

I forgot to mention this, I think, and I talk about abortion in my Sunday school class, and I've had a

mother ask, why are you talking about this with my kid?

And I've said, because they actually deal with this.

They have, you know, 14 -year -old friends who get pregnant and consider abortion.

Don't you want them to know how to handle this topic?

Don't you want them to know what Christ would actually want them to say about this issue?

So younger Christians, though, we are more polite than ever before, probably largely to do with the sonogram and our

love for human rights, and that unborn baby has a human right to live,.

And that's an easy message to convey.

You mentioned social media.

I happen to thank God every day for social media, because that's how the majority of people discover

my show, Iron Sharpens Iron.

In fact, I have listeners globally because of it.

But what has social media contributed to the problems that you're describing?

Yeah, so I would say that the left are really good with soundbites, right?

They're really great with 142 characters on Twitter that make them seem really compassionate and

loving, and can really make the other guy look like a bigot, right?

So when it comes to talking about these issues, apologetics, those are tough issues and

complex.

It's hard to put them into a tweet.

It takes time and consistency and studying, and it doesn't take that much time when you just

have a fluffy little tweet that, you know, is more about your politics than your theology.

So I do worry that a young Christian sees a very popular blogger and author online,

and their tweets sound really pissy and good, yet they don't know the truth or the

inaccuracy behind that statement.

You know, for example, Jesus only hung out with the marginalized.

Well, that's not entirely true.

Jesus' disciples were pretty boring and non -marginalized people.

You know, Paul was not marginalized before he met Christ by any means.

He was very prominent in position, but God still chose to transform his life and use him.

So I just think that they know how to use really nice -sounding words, but there's nothing behind them.

Well, how do you think, or how does.

Music contribute to this ideological gulf?

As you see it, what is contemporary Christian music doing to the health of

evangelicalism?

I know this is one of the most divisive issues in the church, is music, but if you could

comment on that.

Sure, I love all, I will start.

By saying I love all kinds of worship music, but it's more about the lyrics to me than anything.

I love contemporary Christian music, I love hymns, but it's more about the message that I'm singing,

and unfortunately there are some Christian songs out there on the contemporary radio station that

don't have any substance to them, or at times actually aren't completely accurate

as far as theology goes.

So I do think that might be contributing to this cheap grace idea that God is

love and he transforms our lives, but really there's nothing to be transformed from because sin and

hell don't actually exist, they're human constructs.

So I do have a problem with some songs from artists on the contemporary Christian radio station,

but I would do not dismiss the style.

Of worship by any means.

And to define, you've used the term cheap grace throughout the program, cheap grace is basically

fruitless Christianity, an alleged conversion that occurs with no real

evidence being demonstrated in a person's life.

Isn't that basically what you're saying?

Exactly, yeah.

And to read more, I strongly recommend Dietrich Bonhoeffer's The Cost of Discipleship.

It's a great book, especially if you want to disciple young Christians, that's a book to start with that will really help you.

Now going back to the music, although I agree with you, I have a very eclectic taste in music, but I think

that the style of music does come into play especially when you have

worship services becoming more like concerts and more like entertainment than actual worship.

And when words of a song cannot really be sung by a congregation, and you're just

viewing one or two people or groups singing, and you're just as a spectator

absorbing this.

Now I'm not saying that that's always wrong either, having the music that's not meant for congregational singing, but

you see where I'm coming from?

Don't you think that that can...

Absolutely, yeah.

And you know, I recognize there are, and we also recognize there are savvy marketers behind the music, even the

Christian music industry, and they know that pop music like Taylor Swift does really well, so how

can we transform Christian music to sound like pop Taylor Swift's music?

And I have heard it called Jesus is Your Boyfriend music, and no, I do have a problem with that type

of style.

And yes, I would say that there probably are certain styles of music that are more vulnerable or

susceptible to that marketing strategy.

That can be problematic.

Are traditional churches with traditional worship services the problem?

From the perspective of young adults, is traditional worship a total turnoff?

No, there are a lot of young Christians.

Who are actually becoming more drawn to a more liturgical style of service and

worship, which is good news as long as that liturgy is orthodox.

So I wouldn't say it's style, I think probably in the late 90s, early 2000s, we heard a lot about style.

You have to change, you have to wear skinny jeans in order to attract

millennials.

That's not necessarily the truth.

You just really have to be consistent, willing to create a relationship, disciple, and

stand firm, and I do think that's a formula that has worked throughout history and will continue to work.

So don't buy into the media strategies that don't work.

And finally,.

Is there any credible hope for evangelical Christianity in the next generation?

Yes.

When the Supreme Court decision happened, standing outside representing the conservative Christians were

mostly young Christians, most of them my friends, who work for non -profits for very little money in this city,

who are working very hard to influence this country for the common good and for Christ.

So yes, that's good news, and I hope that you.

Don't give up on us.

We do exist.

Well, I want to thank you so much for being a part of my program, and I definitely want you to return, in fact, often,

if your schedule permits, and God willing.

And thank you so much for being a part of the broadcast, and we do still have a couple of listener

questions that we did not have the time to read, and you will be, since you took the time to write, you will be

getting a free copy of Chelsen's book, Distortion, how the new Christian left

is twisting the gospel and damaging the faith.

And the website, once again, for the Institute on Religion and Democracy is theird

.org.

That's T -H -E -I -R -D dot O -R -G.

Thank you so much, Chelsen Vacari, we look forward to you returning to Iron Sharpens Iron.

My pleasure, Chris.

And we're going to be going to a break right now, and if you please stay with us,

because we have Latane C. Scott, who is a former Mormon, who, by the grace and mercy of

Christ, converted to biblical Christianity, and who, through the atoning blood of Christ,

is saved and is worshiping the true Christ of the scripture,

the second person of the triune God, and is worshiping together with us the Trinity,

and is believing in and embracing the authentic beliefs of the scriptures.

And we thank God that she was delivered from the cult of Mormonism, but we're specifically going to be addressing abortion,

and we're going to be addressing the fact that you never know whose life is taken

every time an abortion is performed.

And if you have any questions for Latane C. Scott, we urge you to email us at

chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail

dot com, and please include your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence,

if indeed you live outside of the USA.

Chrisarnson at gmail dot com, that's chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

Don't go away, we'll be right back with Latane C. Scott.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

And if you've just tuned us in, this is now beginning the second hour of our program today on

Iron Sharpens Iron.

We just had Chelsen Vakarian for the first hour discussing her book, Distortion,

how the new Christian left is twisting the gospel and damaging the faith.

Right now, we've got a dear friend of mine for a number of years, Latane C. Scott,

who is a brilliant author.

She has written books such as The Mormon Mirage.

A former member looks at the Mormon church today, Why We Left Mormonism, Eight

People Tell Their Stories, and Discovering the City of Sodom, the fascinating true account

of the discovery of the Old Testament's most infamous city.

And I am going to, God willing, be interviewing Latane C. Scott and her co -author

on that last book sometime in September.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, my dear friend Latane C.

Scott.

I'm so happy to be back here, Chris.

Thank you so much for inviting me.

Well, the pleasure is all mine, and I'm sure my listeners as well.

And I know that you are a Mormon who, or should I say you were a

Mormon, who converted by the grace of God to Christianity

and the embracing of his shed blood on the cross alone

for your deliverance from sin and the penalty thereof.

And if you could, before we go into our main discussion today, because we have

gone into this in depth in the past, perhaps just give our listeners an abbreviated version of your coming

to Christ out of the cult known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day.

Saints.

I have often said I was the happiest Mormon I knew.

I lived in great satisfaction the life of a faithful Mormon,

and it was right after my junior year at Brigham

Young University that I was attending on scholarship.

I went back to my hometown and met a young man who

challenged some of my Mormon beliefs, and I did not feel that it was any

danger to my faith to explore these things with him.

And after all, I was waiting for a Mormon missionary who later became one of the general

authorities of the Mormon Church.

So my future, I thought, was quite tied in and that I would, you know, get married in the

temple to this missionary when he came back from his mission to Germany, and that

as my patriarchal blessing given to me by my state patriarch said, I was going to be a leader of women

in the church and a leader of women in the state where I lived.

And so for me, being home for the summer, working through the money to go back to

BYU for the expenses that were paid for by my scholarship,

just dating this young man seemed very innocuous.

I wasn't engaged to the Mormon missionary, and so I met this young man

and he started asking me questions about Mormonism, and he did a very wise thing.

He got reliable books about Mormonism that made me think, because he himself did not

have the background in Mormonism to be able to counter many of my beliefs in Mormonism.

And I spent that summer becoming more and more miserable because the books were showing me

that what I'd been taught in Mormonism could not be reconciled to what the Bible itself taught.

And of course, as a Mormon, I respected the Bible, but I also had just a little bit of

hesitancy about accepting it as God's Word, because as a Mormon, I believed that it had

been mistranslated in certain places.

And because of that, whenever there was a difference between what the Bible said and what another Mormon

source, such as a prophet or the Pearl of Great Price or the Doctrine and Covenants,

said that I would always go with what the Mormon source said, because it was more

recent, it was directly from the horse's mouth, as we might say, and because

100 years, 1900

years of translations that I thought made it unreliable, I've been taught by it.

But when I saw that some of the things that were left in the Bible, according to the Mormon view of how the

Bible got here, those things condemned Mormonism.

It really started me thinking, and people have often asked me, well, wasn't that a glorious thought to, you know, to

be through with Mormonism and break into the light of Christianity?

And I tell them, no, it was a horrible, miserable, because I loved

Mormonism so much, and also because any Christian

listening, if you woke up tomorrow morning and found out that the God that you were with

had never existed, and that you had placed all your faith and all your hope and trust in a fictional

character, you would not feel liberated and wonderful to find that out.

You would feel devastated, as I did.

So I finished that summer and went back to Brigham Young University, thinking that I could just finish off my

year there and get my degree and just sing

at Brigham Young University through the eyes of someone who had questions about it.

It made it a very different extent.

I left EYU just a couple of weeks into that first hometown,

and I kind of hammered it out with this young man and with his minister and with other people

until I was satisfied that Mormonism was wrong.

Mormonism was wrong didn't make his way of thinking, this young man's way of thinking, nor his

pastor's way of thinking.

I had to go through yet another process

in the right direction, and I put on my Lord in Baptism in September of that year.

At the end of September,

I surrendered to the Lord Jesus Christ, but it was a long time before I could actually trust him and

love him.

I was willing to admit he was the God of the universe, that his father and he had created

this world and it excluded those

writings that were exclusively Mormon.

Well, you

can learn more about the Mormonism.

That Latane left and the new

faith that she embraced, the faith that is taught in the Holy Scriptures about the

Lord Jesus Christ and his cross and his resurrection and his grace.

We could read more about the journey of Latane C. Scott from Mormonism into Christianity

and more about the technical aspects of Mormonism and the heresies of

Mormonism in the Mormon Mirage.

A former member looks at the Mormon church today and why we left

Mormonism.

Eight people tell their stories.

You could go to Latane's website for more information at latane .com, that's L -A

-T -A -Y -N -E dot com, that's latane .com, and

you'll find out how to order those books.

You can also get these books from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, and their

website is C -V for Cumberland Valley, B -B for Bible Book, S for

service dot com, C -V -B -B -S dot com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service,

who is a sponsor of the Iron Sharpens Iron program, and we thank you, all you

folks over at C -V -B -B -S for your support.

In fact, a percentage of every book you buy from C -V -B -B -S, a percentage of the

monies that come from those purchases will be donated to Iron Sharpens Iron.

So I just thank C -V -B -B -S for that arrangement that they graciously and willingly

made with me and Iron Sharpens Iron.

And today's subject is actually on abortion.

A friend of mine, who many of you in the Iron Sharpens Iron audience have heard me

interview, Dr. David Murray, posted an interesting, a

fascinating, and very moving article by Latane C. Scott.

You could go to Dr. David Murray's blog at HeadHeartHand

.org.

HeadHeartHand .org.

Dr. David Murray is a professor at Puritan Reform Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan,

and even though I've known Latane for years and have interviewed her a number of

times, I did not know this story that she's going to share with us today.

And Latane, this is about, as you know, the abortion issue, and you know someone very

well who was a candidate, if you will, for the typical

abortion story.

Somebody who would typically be prone to, or even counseled to, get

an abortion.

If you could start with the story of this woman that you know very well.

Well, I know a woman who was.

Telling me her story about,

she told me about growing up in a Christian home, you know, a church going home, and

even though she believed in the Lord herself, and even though she was a

believer herself, she was quite rebellious against her home life, against the

community that she grew up in in Tennessee, and she

met a young man that she was quite taken with, and her parents just strongly

disagreed with her choice of a boyfriend, and just told her, you know, this is not a good choice for you, this is not

what we had hoped for you.

But the more the parents objected to this young man, the more attractive he became to her, which is kind of the way.

And she continued in her relationship, and one day she got up, and she

decided she didn't want to go to high school anymore.

She was 17 years old, and this young man was actually going to be leaving

to go take a job at West, and so she and he ran away from home.

She just left a note for her parents saying that she'd call them later, that she had run away to get married, and

they crossed the state line into Mississippi, where she could marry without her

parents' permission, being underage.

They were married, and within, you know, 48 hours she found herself over a thousand miles

away from home, and discovered to her horror that this man was a violent

man, that he was mentally ill, and when she did call

her parents to tell her parents where she was, her parents told her, now you've made your bed,

now you lie in it.

And she, there she was, without even a high school diploma,

thousands of miles, or over a thousand miles away from her home, everybody she knew, except for

her new husband, and

began at that time, and had

no resources to

finish her high school, and she

got a job and found herself, a couple of years after they were married, found herself pregnant.

And she knew that everything her parents had told her was true, that this was

not going to be a good life, it was not going to be an easy life, but she had no options.

And if she tells me that if she had had the option of aborting that baby that she was carrying at that

time, she certainly would have done it.

Not out of, not out of revenge against her husband, or, or any other bad

motive, but she did not want to bring a child.

An atmosphere that she very well knew was violent, and

abusive, and also with

that wild

card

element

of mental

illness.

She tried to maintain, really yearned for, the piano

really

well,

and

started

attending a

little,

not only was he

unstable in that way, he would take off with the family money, and she'd have to go through the house and find furniture, or

other things to sell.

Meanwhile, he was a railroader, started out

as a, at the very bottom of the rungs in the railroad industry, and worked his stuff up to

being a fireman.

Engineer on the senate, began

taking mistresses on the other end of his run, and he would come home and tell

his wife that these women were younger than her, and prettier than

her, and then an emerald ring for

Davis' wife, twenty dollars, and told her three children and

herself.

Finally though, through work, and she filed for

divorce, and the day that the,

tells me the story about how difficult it had been, you

know, anybody made about that marriage came true, it really was.

A

deal of love for her, and, and think about the fact that when she had that first baby, her husband dropped her off at a hospital and

said, don't call me till in the morning, I, you know, I need my sleep, eat

whatever the baby

is, and well, you

know.

Absolutely.

I know that

everything, but I

also have another set of knowledge,

and is greater than my own, the

bible says,

even with all of this great

planned parenthood,

born children are sometimes birth shame children, taking

their organs.

That is one issue, but the other issue is, why any woman

would think that she knows enough about

telling another human being to prevent that human being from

experiencing what the mother predicts, and that is exactly

the position my mother found her.

She knew enough about the future that she could, I guess, in her way of thinking, protect

a child against the violence that, that

none of us have.

Playing into business, the fact human beings, the bible tells us that it

has a

life

span just out of the

womb, or at any other point.

After that death, there are no do -overs, there

aren't any second,

what they call the

gospel,

there

are no

second, my childhood,

the great amount of, it

was not a great childhood, but

it was

a witness to what

Romans 8, 28

says,

and

I wonder if

you have

lived my life, and not have any life at

all, no matter how rotten,

none of us know, no

one knows,

and no one else human life, and

especially when it's

the human life.

Yeah, that's

quite a,

thinking about that.

Well,

that's

quite a powerful story, and I hope that God uses that story,.

Not only during the live broadcast that is being conducted right now, but as this

program is archived, and many other people hear it in the future, God

willing, that women are moved to realize that it would be a grave

and serious and damnable mistake to murder the life of

their unborn child, to snuff it out, and in a very barbarous way that it usually

occurs, and hopefully this will also inflame the zeal of many

to be more vocal against this horrific, wicked sin that our nation is guilty of,

the sin of infanticide, and people have long used

the facade of being compassionate and merciful, even in

this particular subject, you have

physicians telling people that because a child may be born with a

deformity or disability, that the better thing or the best thing or the more merciful and kind thing to do is to kill it,

and you even had the Nazis, who as a part of their educational

films, being hosted by scientists and physicians in the Third Reich,

when they began to perform euthanasia on retarded and

other mentally handicapped and physically disabled individuals, they

did it as of being merciful and kind and compassionate, and this is just the absolute

opposite of what it is, it's really born out of selfishness, and it is born

out of evil, and it is born out of hell itself, and we're going to be right back with our

guest, Latane C. Scott, to discuss this matter more after these messages, if you'd like to join

us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com,

chrisarnson at gmail dot com, please include at least your first name and the city and

state of your residence or your country of residence if outside the USA, and I understand of course if this is

about a personal and private matter, especially if it involves an abortion or

something to that effect, you may feel free to remain anonymous when you write in, that's chrisarnson

at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com, don't go away, we're going

to be right back with Latane C. Scott, and more of our discussion on abortion,

you never know whose life will be taken as a result of an abortion

being performed, we'll be right back.

Contact me at 717 -254 -6433.

Lending faith, finances, and generosity, that's the Thrivent story.

Introducing 1031.

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That sounds like sweet music in the hell -bound sinner's ears,

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how wicked you are.

If you would like to learn more about 1031 Sermon Jams, visit us at our website at 1031SermonJams

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It's about God and His glory, and the gospel is about man and...

I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries, the New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Zarnes.

And if you just joined us, our guest for this second hour of Iron Sharpens Iron is Latain C.

Scott, who is a prolific writer.

And she is also a speaker and a former Mormon who by the grace and mercy of

Christ converted to Christianity and was saved by his atoning blood.

And we are discussing abortion.

You never know whose life will be taken every time an abortion is performed.

And Latain just gave us a very moving account about a woman who

was the perfect type of candidate for an abortion, a

young woman who was facing spousal abuse and brutal treatment and

facing a future of poverty and violence and pregnant.

And she was faced with the type of choice that many women are

faced with and unfortunately and tragically are often counseled not only by

friends, family, parents, but even physicians and even clergymen,

whatever that means, clergymen and clergywomen, to

have these babies, these precious babies murdered in the womb.

And we thank God that Latain's mom did not go through with

that act of abortion.

As Latain revealed, that was her mother that she was speaking about

during that very moving story.

And we hope you join us on the air with a question for Latain, even if you must remain anonymous.

But if you can, provide your first name, your city and state of residence and your country of residence

at chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Before I return to our discussion with Latain, I just want to repeat the information about the

pro -life event this Monday in the New York City metropolitan area.

The Long Island Family Coalition and the Long Island Remnant Awakening and other Long Island pro

-life groups are inviting you and your congregation to join them at a peaceful pro -life

demonstration that will demand an end to the horror of abortion and the government funding of

Planned Parenthood in front of U .S. Senator Chuck Schumer's office located at 145

Pine Lawn Road in Melville, Long Island on Monday, August 17th, starting at

11 a .m.

If you'd like more information about this event, you can reach the Long Island Family Coalition Chairman,

Pastor Bruce Bennett, on his cell phone, 631

-806 -0614, 631 -806

-0614, or email him at pastorbruceatoptonline .net,

pastorbruceatoptonline .net.

We thank Pastor Bruce Bennett of the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, for submitting that very

important announcement.

It might be interesting to our listeners to know that a couple of people, and I'm sure the list would be far too long to

read, but a couple of people that most of you have heard of, Andrea Pacelli,

who is the very well -known blind opera singer, he was

a candidate for an abortion.

His mother considered having him aborted.

He was born out of wedlock, and thankfully his mother did not

have this young baby, this precious baby, murdered in the womb.

And Andrea Pacelli is now very passionately pro -life.

I don't know anything else about his faith or religious beliefs, but he has a very moving

YouTube video that you can look up on YouTube where he discusses his belief

in the sanctity of human life in relation to his own testimony.

And of course, Tim Tebow, the NFL player that many of you have heard about,

who is a born -again Christian, his mother also contemplated having an abortion, and she

now goes and speaks at churches about the dangers and horrors of

abortion, and the fact that how thankful to God she is that her own

son Tim's life was spared.

But Latane, the thing that puzzles a lot of us who

are looking at Mormonism from the outside in regard to the issue of abortion, because

you were a Mormon at one point, we find it mind -boggling that there are Mormons who

seem to be members in good standing of the Church of Jesus Christ of

Latter -day Saints who are pro -abortion.

You have Harry Reid, for instance, and at one time, for most of his

political career, Mitt Romney, another Mormon who is running for president and so

on.

How does this contradiction exist in the

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints?

Because they typically come across as being in agreement, lockstep agreement, with

the conservative evangelical movement in regards to matters of

morals and social behavior and so on.

They did not agree with Mormon doctrine, pretty much kept their mouths shut.

You know, they were not open about it, and I don't think anybody would have been electable in the state of

Utah in the 1960s and 70s if he or she had been pro -abortion

or some of the other social issues that we think of as being associated with what is

otherwise conservative.

Now, I understand that Harry Reid is not

conservative, but I'm saying the Church itself is conservative.

In fact, in the last few years, the Mormon Church

actually took quite an active role in defeating

legislation in California to bring about

the Church.

We've done some tremendous changing, not only doctrinally, but in its practices, and

the Mormon Church of today would be unrecognizable to the Mormon of the 60s or the 70s or even the

early 80s, because the Mormon Church is conceding

in an official way.

It is conceding acquiescence to

abortion, such as same -sex marriage,.

That it...

And is it

true that if a bishop in a private consultation

with a pregnant woman gives her the seal of approval to have abortion

performed, is that within the realm of Mormon orthodoxy?

Is that looked upon as acceptable?

Not to my knowledge, no, perhaps.

Okay.

Well, going back to the

issue of this being a matter that has fallen under the

disguise of women's rights, you are a woman,

a very brilliant and gifted woman, a very accomplished woman,

and has this ever been a part of your ideology where you

viewed the fact that since women have had their rights trampled on

in years past and have been treated at times brutally and like property and

so on, and as the rights began to emerge

for various freedoms that are considered to be

inalienable rights of every person living in this nation,

was that ever a part of the makeup of your mindset, to think that a woman should have

the right to do what she pleases to do with her own body, and if she is going to be the one

carrying a baby and giving birth to it, she should have the right to quote -unquote terminate that.

Pregnancy?

First of all, I belong

to...

I do that...

I don't do that because it's imposed upon me.

I do that because it's again from the outside

of

silence, and it

says

I'm not there

anybody, I'm

there,

and

that

is

toward

the novel,

the logical

candidates

were even

likely that.

Priscilla wrote, that's kind

of where you start to

get a woman in that way to produce scripture.

Well, he did with Mary and the Magnificat,

and we have more words from Rahab in the Old

Testament than

we have from

the

spies

that may out of

there live.

To

me, and as my precious

little Canaan couldn't exist if his mother hadn't made a decision after

having several children out of wedlock, that this one was going to be different and turning him over to an adoption agency, by

which he came into the home of my son and daughter -in -law, and so that's

another big reason why abortion is is reprehensible to me, because

I wouldn't have that precious little boy in my life.

Well, you know, the Lord could do anything, but the Lord chose to let us know the preciousness of human life through this

little boy that is part of our lives.

And you know, Chris, while I say that abortion is reprehensible, it's a sin like any other sin that

separates us from God, and it's not unforgivable.

It's certainly not anything that the Lord, that his grace and compassion

cannot extend to, but my purpose is not to condemn the person who

has aborted or even has considered abortion, but my purpose is to help

the woman who might someday find herself in that position to understand that that's not her choice to make,.

Even though it is her body.

It's not her choice.

Yes, we have the Apostle Paul as a prime example of someone who had men

and women rounded up to be executed when he was sole of Tarsus before his

conversion, and acting upon the zeal of his Pharisaic Judaism,

was involved in the murder of people, including Stephen.

He was a coat -check boy, if you will, at the stoning of Stephen and

observed it and gave it his approval.

So if the Lord and the blood of Christ can cover that sin

and those sins of the Apostle, who calls himself in the scriptures the chief

of sinners, then that blood shed by Christ can cover

the sin of anyone who comes in repentance and faith to him.

We do have an anonymous listener who writes and says, when you are

sitting one -on -one in your living room or elsewhere with someone considering

an abortion, do you have a brief step -by -step scenario

that you can share with us that might be helpful to us as we seek to

rescue these babies who are potentially going to be murdered in the womb in a

way that will not frighten these women away, but at the same time give them the

realities of what they are considering to do?

A very good question.

There is a great article that came out not too long ago, maybe about five or six years ago,

a study that was done in the Netherlands, and these researchers

took fetuses or took women who were carrying fetuses and used different sound devices that

a fetus could hear inside the womb and used these little sonic devices

to show that babies can become habituated to certain sounds, or they can be startled by certain

sounds, and that they will actually react to these sounds based on

their memories of previous times that this has happened.

In other words, fetuses can remember things, and I think a good way, I

think a good way, a good third -party way to show a woman

that what she's carrying inside her is something that not only feels pain

and would, in dying, would not do it

pleasantly, as we know from abortion procedures, but this is something that is already

interacting with her, just because the baby is in the womb does not mean that baby is

not interacting with her voice and with the rhythms and sounds of that woman's spine.

And so it's very artificial, I would say, to consider that when that baby's

head through the woman's tissues to the outside world

that there is a giant change that has happened, because that child has already been interacting with

you, has already become part of your family and part of your home, just because through the

sounds and the sensations that the baby not only experiences,.

But remembers and draws conclusions from.

We do have a listener in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, Christian, who

wants to know your response to this.

I find it ironic that women who describe themselves as feminists,

who are very pro -abortion and use that issue as

a hallmark of the women's rights movement in our modern day, I find

it ironic that they are really giving a free pass to

chauvinists and misogynists who view women

in a very disgraceful way and can therefore have more freedom to

use them sexually, free from responsibility, because they know there is a likelihood

or a possibility that the women will receive or have an abortion.

If you could react.

To that.

I would not only agree with that, I might go even a little bit further,

not only themselves become more

subject to men and kind of be ironic the way that the other person said, if you look just historically at,

especially in China, my husband and I actually visited China in

the 1980s when it first was open to westerners, and on tour

guide we were asking about how many children he had, and he had one child.

Historically, abortion has been used to limit the number of females who are fever light of

day, literally.

And so it's kind of ironic that women would be advocating this, what they would call

their reproductive freedoms, when actually people who end

up being murdered by abortion, statistically, in a focused and

aimed way, are women.

First.

Yeah, that's a great point.

In fact, it reminds me of a story that I just brought up recently in the

news.

You may recall this as well, there was a very heavily televised and publicized case

of a husband who murdered his pregnant wife, and

because the baby within her womb died as a result

of the mother being murdered, the husband was being charged with double

homicide.

And the National Organization for Women, their initial reaction to that was protest

that this monster of a husband who murdered

his wife, they were demanding that he not be charged with

the more serious crime of double homicide, because they realized it jeopardized

their fight for women's freedom to have abortions.

But isn't that totally ironic.

And absurd when you think about it?

Yeah, it really is.

My friend Mark Toombs, who is a minister, brought up a point that

Planned Parenthood stands in the same case as the great red

dragon in the

book of Leviticus.

The Bible, except in the book of Leviticus, I think, doesn't really even

approach the subject of abortion per se.

Just this one image of that being something horrible and reprehensible, standing

literally at the feet of a woman and ready to devour her child.

Or sell it or dismember it or whatever.

Yeah, that's a profound image there.

When all is said and done, when it comes to this issue,

one's self is really being exalted far above the place where one

should view their place in this world, and they are clearly putting their own

concerns above the life of a helpless, defenseless child.

It is a disgrace and an insult to womanhood that women's rights

are cloaking this barbarous behavior.

Do you have the occasion or the opportunity to speak to many women

in your travels that are convinced that this is really just a part of a woman's freedom here in

America?

I really don't.

Most of the time when people want to talk to me, they want to talk to me about Mormonism or they want to talk to me about writing,

about the process of writing and getting published.

My own personal experience with my husband and myself was he had a young woman that was his assistant

at work, and we invited this young assistant to come to a concert with us, which was performed by

acapella, a group that you're familiar with, Chris.

Oh, yes, definitely.

And acapella had a song at that time called, What Was I Supposed to Be?, and it's a

child ever achieve

whatever it was that God had in mind for me

to be.

And ironically, this young woman that we had taken to the concert, we did not know at the time was pregnant.

And after hearing that song, she went home and made the decision she would, even though she was pregnant by a

married man, often involved in burying a child

with nothing in the

child's life.

Right.

And unfortunately,.

There have been many parents who, because of their

nominally held Christian beliefs, but maybe even from more of a conservative

background, because of the very fact that they are ashamed of their child having

a child out of wedlock, they have been very often the ones to convince these children of

theirs to have the abortions.

Yes.

Well, if you could, let's just leave our listeners with what you want them most to leave this program with in their hearts.

And minds.

We serve a Lord who is a Lord of Sacrifices, even though that's not a popular word.

He was a Lord of Sacrifice and Submission.

And I've just been reading the book of John, and he says over and over again, I just came to do the

Father's will.

And how can we be any any less willing to do that?

If he, the God of the universe, with limitless power, would take on the form of a

servant and submit to his Father, why would we not?

And, well, I want to thank you so much, Letayne, for being my guest.

I look forward to having you back.

And I know your website is letayne .com, L -A -T -A -Y -N -E dot com.

I want to thank everybody who listened to both hours, especially those who took the time to write questions.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater Savior than

you are a sinner.

Even if you've had an abortion, there is forgiveness at the cross if you come with faith and repentance.

We love you, and we thank you for joining us on Iron, Sharp, and Zion.

God bless.