Aug. 13, 2015 Show with Chelsen Vicari on her book “Distortion: How the New Christian Left is Twisting the Gospel and Damaging the Faith” & Latayne C. Scott on “Abortion: You Never Know Whose Life is Taken Every Time”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

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Now here's our host Arnton. Well good afternoon

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Cumberland Valley, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

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This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Wednesday, I'm sorry a happy Thursday on this 13th day of August 2015 and I am very excited about today's program.

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We're going to have two dynamic Christian women each on for one hour and they are going to be addressing some very vital topics.

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To start off the two -hour broadcast today, for the first hour we have

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Chelson Vicari who is our guest to discuss her new book,

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Distortion, how the new Christian left is twisting the gospel and damaging the faith and then following our interview with Chelson, starting at 5 p .m.

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eastern time, we're having my old friend Latine C. Scott. She is going to be discussing abortion and why you never know whose life is taken every time an abortion occurs and Latine C.

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Scott is no stranger to the Iron Sharpens Iron audience from years past when we had the original

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Iron Sharpens Iron between 2006 and 2011 and she is a former

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Mormon who by the grace of Jesus Christ converted to Christianity and she has been serving him very well ever since as an author and speaker and teacher and I'm very delighted to have

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Latine return to the Iron Sharpens Iron program. But let me, for the first time, introduce our guest

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Chelson Vicari and it is my honor and privilege to introduce her to the

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Iron Sharpens Iron program. She serves as the

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Institute of Religion and Democracy's evangelical program director and as I said earlier she has written a book,

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Distortion, how the new Christian left is twisting the gospel and damaging the faith and according to Todd Starnes, a host on Fox News and commentary author,

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God Bless America, that's L -E -S -S, he says at a time when religious liberty is increasingly coming under attack the church needs prophetic voices like Chelson Vicari's and I welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron, Chelson Vicari.

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Hello Chris, hello Iron Sharpens Iron listeners. It is a pleasure to be here. I'm really excited about our hour -long discussion today.

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Yes, so am I and I'm sure many of our listeners are as well and in fact I have to give a shout out to a very dear friend of mine,

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Pastor Ron Glass, who is the pastor of Wading River Baptist Church in eastern

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Suffolk County, Long Island, not very far from the Hamptons and Pastor Ron Glass is the one that eagerly and enthusiastically urged me to interview

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Chelson today and introduced me to her book that we are addressing today and for those of you who are living in eastern

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Suffolk County, Long Island or you're going to visit there or you have friends or family or loved ones that you'd like to refer to this church because they live nearby,

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Wading River Baptist Church's website is wrbc .us,

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wrbc for Wading River Baptist Church dot us and you can hear more about or learn more about Pastor Ron Glass's own radio show that he hosts called the

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River of Life broadcast that broadcasts there out in eastern Suffolk County and worldwide over the internet, so that's wrbc .us.

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But first of all, Chelson Vakari, before we even go into your book or into the organization that you are involved in there in Washington, D .C.,

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tell us something about your own background. Yeah, so I was born to two very young sinners who had a very tumultuous marriage early on and they were headed for destruction,

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I mean, personally, their marriage, so they wandered into a local church just desperately seeking help for themselves and for their marriage and that's where they found

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Christ. I was about eight years old and so raised in an Assembly of God church ever since and then now

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I attend a Baptist church actually in the D .C. area, so I just prefer to say

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I'm evangelical, just generally I'm evangelical. I've seen it all, experienced it all, tried it all.

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I don't know if it's Capitol Hill Baptist Church that you are a part of, but I happen to be familiar with that one. It's not, but you know if I lived closer to Capitol Hill Baptist, I would definitely go there, lots of friends that go there, but I also have been to Triumph D .C.

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and also another Baptist church in Falls Church where I live and that's the church I attend now.

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Great, well tell us something about the Institute on Religion and Democracy.

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What is your responsibility as the Evangelical Program Director? Yeah, so it's the

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IRD for short and we have a very unique role within the conservative

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Christian movement, so which is what drew me from Concerned Women for America where I worked for three years prior right out of grad school to IRD.

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I was so focused on what was happening on Capitol Hill and with legislation and really wanting to advocate biblical principles there and that's absolutely necessary, but then

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I learned that there was an organization that was focused on the root of the problem, which we know that sin is a major issue that is causing the issues we have at the local, state, and federal level, right?

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It goes back to sin and then I learned that there are churches who are actually advocating these particular sins or at least staying silent on sin and that's a huge root of the problem.

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So what IRD does is it monitors the church and it reports on cultural issues that affect the church and we seek to reform those churches who capitulate to culture and who are actually staying silent on sins or in some cases advocating for sins like abortion or same -sex marriage, so that is what

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I do. So I particularly am the Director of the Evangelical Program, so I monitor the new

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Christian left, so many of your listeners have probably heard of the religious left, but that's largely mainline denomination leaders who compromised

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Orthodox or traditional Christian teaching, but now we have a lot of younger evangelicals or evangelical leaders or really just mainline young leaders dressed up as evangelicals or feeding this repackaged version of Christianity to evangelicals, so that's what

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I monitor. So I work very hard to empower young evangelicals not to remain silent on abortion or the harvesting of unborn baby parts or radical feminism or the deterioration of family or whatever it is, the attack on religious liberty.

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I try and be a voice educating my fellow evangelicals out there on what scripture actually says, how social science affirms that teaching, and why we actually have to have a strong social witness.

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Well I want to, I'm sure I'll repeat it throughout the broadcast, but I want to make sure that I get it done right now.

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If I happen to forget, the website for the organization that Chelson is a

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Program Director for is theird .org,

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theird .org, so that should be simple enough for you to remember, but jot it down because I'm sure you're going to want to visit that website often.

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That's theird .org and that stands for the Institute on Religion and Democracy.

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You just mentioned a term that might be foreign to some of our listeners, the new

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Christian left. People very often in conservative evangelical circles or fundamentalist circles would say that that's oxymoronic, that those two words,

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Christian and left, are in polar opposition to one another, but if you could give a definition of what you mean by the new

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Christian left and how it may be different from the old mainline

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Christian left that started out with the higher criticism movement in Germany and so forth in the 19th century and just continued to steamroller through denominations one by one in the earlier part of the 20th century.

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Right, so in many cases the Christian left is really just a liberal movement cloaked in Christianity, one where for most cases

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God's supremacy can be diminished or inconsistencies in scripture are painted or truth, and this one's the one that we deal with mostly or see mostly, is that truth is made relative.

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You have listeners who may have heard of red -letter Christians, Christians who no longer look to the

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Old Testament or even the Pauline text, they specifically just look at literally the red text of Jesus, and those are the only scripture verses that they apply to themselves.

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So when I'm talking about the Christian left, there can be two different kinds. The most common is cafeteria -style

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Christians on the left, and they're the ones who tend to treat scripture like the Shoney's buffet line, walking down it, picking and choosing which scripture verses to apply to their lives, which ones not to.

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So they'll often apply scripture verses that don't put them at odds with popular culture today, and that's what we saw with the mainline leaders on the religious left.

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Or we have, on the other hand, we have the couch potatoes Christians on the left, and they're the ones who, yes, they see injustices, but they stay silent and encourage others to do so as well.

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But most common, most popular, and when I'm talking about the Christian left, I'm really talking about the cafeteria -style

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Christians on the left, or who lean left politically. So again, they will exclude mentions of sin or hell or transformation from their sermons or lectures on Sunday School or blogs or whatever their platform is, and you'll hear them using liberal political buzzwords like tolerance and coexistence and political correctness, and they portray this very hippie -like portrait of Jesus, right?

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And so they don't, again, they don't focus on sin per se, or let's use same -sex marriage as an example.

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Many on the Christian left advocate for same -sex marriage as a union that can be blessed by God, instead of saying, you know,

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Genesis chapter 2, Jesus, the Pauline text, they actually do show that God's model for marriage is between one man and one woman.

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So we're seeing, basically, boiled down for an easy definition,

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I usually say that the Christian left is a very liberal political ideology draped in Christian tone.

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Yes, that's how liberalism has always made a lot of headway in the United States from its inception, and would you include in that group of the new

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Christian left even the more hardcore leftists and liberals like the so -called evangelical homosexual movement, being led predominantly in the spotlight right now by Matthew Vines and others, and the

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Metropolitan Church movement, where they will have a worship service that may in many respects appear identical to your typical evangelical worship service or charismatic worship service, but in fact they are teaching people that homosexuality, at the very least monogamous homosexuality, is acceptable to God and should not be opposed in any way, shape, or form.

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Would you include that in that camp of the new Christian left? I would absolutely include

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Matthew Vines in the Christian left. Sometimes you'll hear me say evangelical left, and that is because they themselves will define themselves as evangelicals.

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But again, that's often done not because they are on street corners trying to evangelize and spread the gospel, it's done largely because there is a huge audience when you're talking about evangelicals, especially young evangelicals, that's a big audience that is very receptive to their political ideology.

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Yeah, I was very shocked recently when I, I'm not going to mention the name of the university because they don't have somebody here to represent them and defend themselves, but I was shocked not long ago to see an advertisement for a very well -known university known for evangelical

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Christianity that was having a symposium or conference on the church's response to homosexuality, which is obviously not a bad thing in and of itself, but the way that it was being conducted, they even included a woman minister who was advocating that homosexuality in and of itself was not a sin, and I saw a video recently on YouTube promoting this woman's church, who was one of the teachers at this symposium, and one member after another was identifying themselves as gay and Christian, but we can continue on to that specific area of our discussion a little later about the homosexual community, which is a phrase that I despise,

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I don't believe there is a homosexual community, that there are people involved in homosexual activities, they're not in a community as if they're an ethnic group or nationality, but your book,

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Distortion, it provides an interesting look at evangelical Christianity through the eyes of a millennial, and for those of you listening who know that I'm having our eschatology week next week,

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I'm not referring to anything in regard to the millennium prophesied in the scriptures, a millennial is someone, as many or most of you know, who came to adulthood around the year 2000, at the dawn of the new century, and in your introduction you say that America's grown -ups, who have the ability to influence and pray for young Christians, must not declare defeat and give up on us, instead they must start understanding and confronting the false partisan teachings influencing the next generation of evangelicals, and take back

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America's Christian culture. What are the false and partisan teachings to which you're referring?

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I know you already mentioned some, but do you have any more that you'd like to address? Yeah, well, when I wrote that,

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I was thinking of a lot of the grown -ups in the church, who I know you look around and you think, okay, something is wrong with the younger evangelicals in this church, or in my town, or what have you, and you think, why is their worldview so off when it comes to traditional

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Christian teaching that has been agreed upon for over millennia? What is going on?

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So I wrote Distortion, and I wrote that particular headline because, not because I'm some wonderful religion analyst, but because I actually bought into distorted

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Christian teaching when I was in college, and so that's why I wanted to write Distortion. It was because I wanted to give readers or radio listeners a glimpse into the world of what does it look like to be a millennial evangelical right now, and it can be a bit tough.

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It's very confusing. So, well, first off, to start, I don't want to put all the blame on the

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Christian left itself. So when I say, look, grown -ups, don't give up on us millennials,

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I mean that because I do think there are a lot of pastors and lay leaders who have given up on discipleship of younger

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Christians, or maybe discipleship wasn't done very well, and we focused more, and I say this humbly and respectfully, but I do think in many evangelical churches, we focused more on evangelizing at our coffee and donut time before service than we did actually tackling tough issues that young people, that adults in the church actually deal with, like abortion.

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How do we deal with a post -abortive woman? How do we deal with someone struggling with same -sex attraction? What are we doing?

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And we ignored those issues in our Sunday school lessons and our youth group, we just didn't talk about them.

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So what happened was that allowed the Christian left and their ideologies and agendas to come in and fill a void.

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So when we're confused about what Scripture says about same -sex marriage, and I will say that's because a lot of young Christians don't actually pick up their

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Bible and read what it says, then they're listening to the opinions and interpretations of the

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Christian left, and they're buying in and saying, well, you know, I really feel bad if I have to tell my friend who says they're gay that I believe marriage is between one man and one woman.

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They're going to get offended. It's going to hurt their feelings. They're going to call me uncompassionate.

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The worst word in the world for a millennial to hear or be called is uncompassionate. So when the

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Christian left comes along and says, oh, you know that actually to be compassionate like Jesus is to affirm same -sex relationships and marriage, you buy in.

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And I don't say that in a condemnation type of way.

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I say it because I, again, bought into it. I'll never forget when I was in college, coming back from a family vacation,

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Chris, and my parents were in the car, and I had been going to this new campus ministry while I was in college, and it wasn't overtly

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Christian left by any means, but there were particular leaders who were.

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And so I had, you know, I had friends who were gay in this

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Christian ministry. I loved them very much, and because we weren't talking about sexual sin of any kind, and I'm not just talking about same -sex marriage,

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I'm talking about premarital sex or pornography or what have you, I just began to say or to believe those

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Christian writers that I was reading, oh, you know, you can be gay and you can be a

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Christian and there's nothing sinful about same -sex relationships. So I was fighting and yelling at my parents and telling them they were old -fashioned and outdated and bigoted and hateful, and all those words that I had heard churned over and over again.

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I was studying political science, so I'd heard those terms used politically, but now I was hearing them in the church, and so it sounded right, it made me feel enlightened and progressive, so I bought in.

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And so that's what's happening with younger evangelicals, and that's what I try and expose and explore, not just, again, with the same -sex issue.

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I talk about the topic of Israel, I talk about the topic of religious liberty, Christian persecution, radical feminism.

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There are a lot of social justice, what does the social justice movement look like and mean, and there are some things that are going wrong even within that phrasing.

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So I do delve into what's going on, I say, behind the hip church appearance.

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Yeah, that's a great description. I'm going to give our email address if you are a listener and you'd like to ask

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Chelson a question about her book and about our topic, Distortion, How the

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New Christian Left is Twisting the Gospel and Damaging the Faith. The email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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And please give your first name, at least, and in fact, I've got a surprise for you.

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If you're one of the first four listeners who send in a question that is good enough to be read on air that is relevant to the topic, you're going to receive a free copy of Chelson's book,

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Distortion, How the New Christian Left is Twisting the Gospel and Damaging the Faith.

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So if you'd like to get a copy and you have a question that is relevant to the topic and that is a good question and it's read on air, you'll get a free copy.

22:52

So include your mailing address, and I'm sorry we have to restrict this free offer to our

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United States listeners. We love to hear from you in Canada and in Europe and other places overseas,

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South Africa and other places that we've received listener emails from. And we urge you to please continue, today even, to send in your questions, no matter where you live in the world, but we can only give the free books to the

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United States listeners due to a sponsor who ships them out and cannot be overwhelmed with rapidly mounting overseas shipping charges.

23:32

You know, you brought up an issue that I don't know what your personal view on this is, but there is a thing called the youth group movement that has been popular for a number of decades and very often will isolate the teenage

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Christians or teenage members or the children of members in the congregations into their own church atmosphere where their music is more lively and they do fun things, recreational activities, and of course

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I'm not against any of that. And I know that there is debate in the body of Christ about whether these youth group activities should be conducted almost as a separate entity, like a separate church.

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But the fact is that very often in these youth group outreaches and so on, you will have a person that is not much older than the youth that are going to these activities, and it seems when

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I have been exposed to some of them, and please I'm not broad brushing, I know that there's probably many that are absolutely wonderful, but when

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I've been exposed to some of them it seems the main message that they are declaring is you can be cool and be a

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Christian. Go out and tell your friends in high school and in your neighborhood that being a

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Christian is cool. You can be a Christian and go bowling and play softball and go square dancing and all these different things.

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And you can listen to modern music and be cool and be a Christian and therefore, of course when

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I just mentioned square dancing I just aged myself, there's probably nothing cool about square dancing. But you know what

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I mean, they don't have to they don't have to live like they're in a monastery, which of course that is true as well, but do you see a danger in some of the way that the youth group movement is handling the education of our youth?

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You know as far as should we have youth groups separate or not, I really don't have a dog in that particular fight.

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I see the benefits of both sides of the argument. I see good and bad.

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I would say what bothers me more is the leadership put over the youth, right?

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So we don't, again it goes back to the discipleship issue. I don't see discipleship happening in youth groups.

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What I see is and what I experienced and I will say that when I was in high school I loved my youth group, but I'll be honest

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I went because we had pizza, we had games beforehand, I got to talk to friends,

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I heard a very squishy sermon that was very it made me feel good about myself.

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It didn't really challenge me at all and then afterwards we had more pizza and punch and I left.

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So I think that formula is becoming archaic and it's ineffective.

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I will say that. I do not, so I do not advocate for the pizza party, let's attract as many youth as we can to just get them here in the church and you know like the old switch and bait, just get them here and then we'll share

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Jesus with them and they'll become a Christian. I didn't, I don't see that being effective. What I do see effective are leaders who are serious about sharing the gospel with youth enough that they're willing to be consistent and take millennials or high school students under their wing and show them what it means to be a

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Christian, to live out the example, to talk about the hard stuff. They go to the students, they don't lure them in with pizza, you know what

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I mean? So I do think our formula needs to change a bit. You mentioned, you know, there's just questionable teaching.

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Yeah, that's my biggest concern. I see a lot of cheap grace when it comes to, it was

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Dietrich Bonhoeffer, he used that phrase by the way, cheap grace in Sunday school. So we'll talk about God's love and grace and mercy and all that and which is wonderful, it's certainly important, but there is two sides to the coin, right?

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We have God's love and mercy and grace because there is sin in the world and brokenness and we need our lives transformed and saved by Christ, but I don't hear us talking about the negative side of the coin.

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So I'm not sure that young evangelicals fully understand the totality of the gospel, what it means to die to ourself, to lay down our own desires to follow

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Christ, what it means to be persecuted in the name of Christ, to know that like Christ himself said, that like me, they're going to hate you, and to what it actually looks like to live in the world but not of the world, or to do like what in Ephesians 4 15

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Paul says, to speak the truth in love. So I see a lot of, well let's talk about love, let's be loving, but I don't hear much about truth.

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And there is a way to balance that I've had to learn myself, that I've struggled and wrestled with, and you see that towards the end of Distortion, me working through this idea of speaking the truth in love, that it doesn't look like lying to my friends about their sin, because that's not showing them love.

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So I think that youth groups need to focus in on the curriculums that they're using, maybe reconsider them, maybe reconsider that the strategy they're using to try and share the gospel, because they don't think the pizza parties are working.

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We're going to go to a break right now. If you have a question for Chelsen Vacari, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

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ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. We already have a couple of listeners who have sent in questions that we'll get to after the break.

29:34

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Chelsen Vacari and the discussion on her book

29:41

Distortion, How the New Christian Left is Twisting the Gospel and Damaging the

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That's wrbc .us. Welcome back.

32:25

This is Chris Arns. And if you've just tuned in, our guest today is Chelsen Vacari. And we are discussing her book,

32:31

Distortion, How the New Christian Left is Twisting the Gospel and Damaging the

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Faith. And before I move on with that interview, I just want to announce that Chelsen's boss,

32:43

Mark Tooley, who is the president of IRD, the

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Institute for Religion and Democracy, or the Institute on Religion and Democracy, he is going to be discussing

32:55

Taking Back the United Methodist Church, a denomination, as most of you may know, has been overrun with liberalism.

33:04

And yet Mark Tooley and others are hanging in there in the denomination, seeking, by God's grace, to transform it.

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And he is going to be talking about that book, Taking Back the United Methodist Church. That's Mark Tooley, who also for eight years worked for the

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CIA. And I'm not speaking about the Culinary Institute of America. I'm talking about for the

33:27

Central Intelligence Agency. So it should be a fascinating interview tomorrow. And the week after, as I was mentioning, we have

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Eschatology Week, actually for six days, from the 17th of August to the 24th of August.

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We're going to have different representatives of all of the major end times views, or last day's views.

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Every day there will be a different representative defending his position on eschatology.

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So I know that should be fascinating to many of you. And I want to welcome to Iron, Sharp, and Zion, our newest sponsor,

34:05

Providence Baptist Church in Norfolk, Massachusetts. Pastor Mark Lukens has been a loyal listener of Iron, Sharp, and Zion since back in the earlier days between 2006 and 2011.

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And when he learned that we were relaunched and on the air again, he rallied support from his church to provide monthly sponsorship for this program for a year.

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is their website. ProvidenceBaptistChurchMA, for Massachusetts, dot O -R -G.

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Once again, I want to let you know about our email address if you have a question.

34:51

It is chrisarnson at gmail dot com. chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

34:58

And before I move on to the listener questions, Chelsen, you begin your book by saying this.

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Peek behind the curtain of some hip or progressive evangelical churches, past the savvy technology in secular music, and you will find more than just a contemporary worship service.

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You'll find faith leaders encouraging young evangelicals to trade in their Christian convictions for a gospel filled with compromise.

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They're slowly attempting to evangelicalism an update, and the change is not for the good.

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You also say that the sad truth is that the ideological gulf between America's evangelical grownups and their kids, aka the millennials, seem to be widening too.

35:41

Can you explain this in more detail? What is the gospel filled with compromise, which is the ideological gulf that you mentioned, and why should older church members be very concerned about this?

35:53

Absolutely. So the Christian West theology usually looks like this. It looks like accepting same -sex behavior and lifestyle, questioning scripture's authority, so sometimes even denying that some parts of it were inspired by the

36:08

Holy Spirit. Others will say that liberating women from their supposed place of oppression in the church and home needs to be the focus of our sermons, or expanding the federal nanny state welfare programs is a tenet of Christianity, or thwarting climate change or gun control.

36:24

These are all theological issues. Well, that's not core to the gospel, and many of those, especially when we're talking about abortion or same -sex marriage, that's very clear -cut in scripture, right and wrong.

36:37

It's black and white, and some are saying, no, there are gray areas, and we have to explore those gray areas.

36:42

And the reason why I say this is bad, and why the older generation should be concerned, is because we know where this progressive, liberal version of Christianity gets us.

36:53

It gets us declined, actually, in our church numbers. So while many people are compromising scripture, especially pastors and lay leaders, because they think it will bring in people to the churches and fill the pews, it doesn't, which

37:08

I know is very surprising, because it surprised me. So you think, oh, I'm going to tell the world that my

37:15

Bible Belt Evangelical Church now says the Holy Spirit told me that same -sex marriage is a union blessed by God, so I expect to see my congregation grow.

37:27

Well, the reality is, churches that are doing that actually see a decline. So last summer, I did a study on churches in Washington, D .C.,

37:35

which ones are growing, and which ones are on the decline. The churches that are dying, as a denomination, are those mainline liberal denominations that have a very progressive version of Christianity that they are teaching.

37:49

I mean, they're the churches that have the rainbow banner flags outside saying, we affirm, you know, basically, we affirm every lifestyle.

37:57

Not just that we welcome, because I will say, every church should be welcoming to sinners. That's where sinners should be wandering in, like my parents off the street into churches, but not affirming.

38:08

And so anyway, those churches have maybe 30, 50 people on a given Sunday. The Orthodox, conservative, traditional churches that are supposedly so outdated, those are the churches that are growing, that are spilling over with young people too, young families.

38:27

They're doing something right, and I truly believe it's because God is blessing the faithful, and He's not blessing those who are not being faithful.

38:37

I was just going to say that it's because, you know, people, they'll go maybe for, you'll see a short spurt of attendance, maybe, if you've made this polarizing statement going against traditional

38:52

Christianity. But if you can, if truth is relative, even when it comes to Christianity, why are you going to stay going to this church?

39:01

You're not. You're not. You want discipleship. You want accountability.

39:06

I mean, our souls crave this, right? So to go to a church where anything goes, well, you're not going to get up on Sunday morning and to go and just feel good about yourself continually.

39:16

You're going to sleep in and go to brunch. That's how it works. Yeah, I'm assuming that's why the mainline liberal churches are dying numerically, because why go to church if none of this really matters?

39:29

If the God that you're allegedly worshiping may or may not even exist, and all these things that the

39:39

Christians of old have viewed as sinful are really okay, you know, what do we need to repent for?

39:47

What do we need to ask forgiveness for? Who are we worshiping? And I could just see that this is a ridiculous blueprint to imitate the churches if they've already seen it's a proven disaster, just like Marxism becoming more and more popular here in the

40:10

United States amongst politicians. Of course, they never call it that, but where this has been a failed way to govern a people all over the world, a proven failed way to operate a country, and yet we have people in our own nation here imitating that.

40:33

Exactly. So if the self can determine truth for itself, well, people are selfish innately, so they're going to live according to how they want, and you're right.

40:43

There's no reason to go and think about repentance and be contemplative about your actions or corporate prayer.

40:49

No, there's no reason for it anymore. Yeah, the higher that a theology raises man in his goodness and righteousness, and the lower that theology makes

41:01

God, he is not a God worthy of worship, nor do people feel a urgent need or desire to worship him or her, as the case may be with liberalism.

41:12

So it's just a ridiculous blueprint to be following. We do have a question from Bruce in Farmingville, New York.

41:21

If a pastor of an evangelical church is pro -choice or pro -homosexual, what should neighboring pastors who are holding steadfast to scripture do in their response to these unbiblical actions of their neighboring colleagues?

41:36

Sure, well, I would follow scripture's instructions and say that it would be helpful if those pastors went, if you're a pastor or you are a pastor, go to this particular pro -choice pastor, talk with him, ask him where he gets his theology from, and of course be prepared, like Paul says, to show where there is distorted teaching, and if that doesn't work, then

42:06

I would say, I would personally want to talk to the pastor, because this is a critical issue.

42:13

If we are not willing to stand up for the most vulnerable among us, the unborn, then how is our pastor going to teach us to stand up for other injustices out there?

42:26

I don't see how that will work. So I really encourage, if you're a way leader or a pastor, to go to this particular pastor, set up a meeting, talk with him, of course be ready to use apologetics to show where he's gotten things wrong in a graceful way, right?

42:42

Speak the truth and love to him. And maybe you have friends in that particular congregation.

42:47

Ask them if they know that their pastor is pro -choice, and ask them to bring this up. I mean, this is a congregation, and he's implosing an entire congregation.

42:57

This is something not to take lightly. But I would start with the pastor, talking to him in private, and then if that doesn't work, then appeal to the congregation.

43:05

By the way, for those of our listeners who are out on Long Island, I just want to let you know that the

43:11

Long Island Family Coalition, the Long Island Remnant Awakening, and other

43:16

Long Island pro -life groups are inviting you and your congregation to join them at a peaceful pro -life demonstration that will demand an end to the horror of abortion and the government funding of Planned Parenthood.

43:30

They're going to be having that peaceful demonstration in front of U .S. Senator Chuck Schumer's office, which is located at 145

43:38

Pine Lawn Road in Melville, Long Island, this Monday, August 17th, starting at 11 a .m.

43:46

And if you'd like more information about this event, you can reach the Long Island Family Coalition Chairman Pastor Bruce Bennett on his cell phone, 631 -806 -0614, 631 -806 -0614, or at PastorBruce at OptOnline .net.

44:09

That's PastorBruce at O -P as in Peter, T as in Thomas, Online .net.

44:15

So that's a very worthwhile endeavor to be involved in, obviously.

44:21

And we do have another listener, this one from Fort Myers, Florida. Mike in Fort Myers, Florida.

44:29

Hi there, Chelsen. I recently learned of your new book, Distortion. In view of the Christian left, would you please briefly delve into the doctrine between faith and policy and its influential basis that it has derived from?

44:43

Thank you. Do you know exactly what our listener is speaking of?

44:49

I'm not exactly sure I followed. You can see the muffled sound. I'm sorry.

44:55

He says, would you please briefly delve into its doctrine and policy, the doctrine, delve into its doctrine between faith and policy, the

45:07

Christian left. If you can't answer that or it isn't clear enough, we'll just have Mike send us a new question.

45:14

Oh, no, sure. So there are certainly differences, and there's a huge spectrum, though, when it comes to the

45:23

Christian left. So it would depend on who we're talking about, but I would say, in large part, the

45:31

Christian left would say that the Scripture was written by men, not necessarily influenced by the

45:38

Holy Spirit, and therefore is up for interpretation. It's not necessarily... it's not doctrine because it's not...

45:45

it doesn't serve as a guide for Christian living. I've heard them say this, that the Scripture doesn't serve as a guide for Christian living.

45:52

So therefore, again, like we were talking about earlier, it's all relative, and so then everything is up for debate and nitpicking and reconsideration.

46:01

I might not be answering your question right. I will say I'm not a theologian. I am a public policy and religion analyst.

46:08

So I'd be happy to, somehow, if Chris, if you could connect us, maybe we could... the gentleman and I could talk further about this online.

46:17

Oh, yeah, sure. Sure, that would be fine. And we do have another listener. We have

46:23

Susan in Newville, Pennsylvania. Do you think that the reason why leftism is on the rise within so -called or self -professed evangelical

46:36

Christianity is because it has a façade of being more compassionate and loving and forgiving than conservative evangelicalism, and in their minds is more of a reflection of the true attributes of Jesus Christ?

46:54

Excellent question. That's well said. The lady is absolutely right, in many ways, that the religious right of the 70s and the 80s and even the early 90s, in younger evangelicals' minds, that's very harsh, their tone is very strident, and we want nothing to do with that, right?

47:14

So, unfortunately, we're confusing... we don't like the tone, so therefore, in many ways, we're dismissing the truth of the message.

47:23

So, which is what I'm trying very hard to work against, right? That's why I talk about Ephesians 4 .15

47:30

all the time. There is a way to soften our tone, to be loving, but to still stand firm for biblical principles.

47:39

I will absolutely stand by that, and sometimes that loses us friends. I've lost two friends in particular because I was speaking the truth in love.

47:49

But yes, there is a facade of the Christian left that it's compassionate, it looks more like Jesus and the religious right, therefore, the principles they're talking about are also true.

47:59

It's not necessarily the case, depending on what the issue is. And I think, after reading over Mike from Fort Myers, Florida, reading over his question again,

48:08

I think what he means is, is there a difference between the theological beliefs of the

48:16

Christian left and what they actually practice in public? Perhaps that's what he's trying to say, delving into the doctrine between faith and policy.

48:27

You know, I think that the Christian left is motivated by well -intentioned feelings.

48:33

I think they truly have big hearts, and they care about those in need. So, when they talk about the

48:39

LGBTQI community, they really care about those, quote, being marginalized.

48:46

So, I do think they're trying to be compassionate in life, but I think that causes them to drive their theology a certain direction.

48:54

And I do think it causes them to nitpick, cherry -pick which scripture verses they apply in their life and their theology.

49:02

Yeah, you have for quite a long time had liberals who say, whether they're being honest or not is another question, but you have had liberals say,

49:11

I am personally against abortion. And I am personally opposed to homosexuality, but I think the loving and compassionate thing to do is, in a free country, to let those issues be decided between a person and their minister and their own understanding of who

49:34

God is. I'm not doing... Oh, right. Perhaps that's what the listener was meaning, but between the different...

49:41

Absolutely, absolutely. And if that's what he meant, then surely I've seen this.

49:47

At the conservative Christian graduate school that I went to, I knew of a woman who, while she would say she's pro -life, happily drove her friend to the abortion clinic because she wanted to be compassionate.

50:01

Well, there's something wrong with this picture. That's not being compassionate to your friend or to the unborn child.

50:09

Again, I get very passionate about the abortion issue, but it's not compassionate, it's not

50:17

Christ -like, because we're just dismissing what scripture says in order to make our...

50:23

It really comes down to, she made herself feel better because she drove her friend to the clinic.

50:28

Right, and then there's a murder taking place, and not only a murder, a very torturous and brutal and barbaric one.

50:37

So that's just a smokescreen of the left, and it always has been. It's just disturbing, as you said.

50:44

Where are the millennials attending our churches on the major social issues today? Issues like, as you were saying, the

50:51

LGBT thing, abortion and politics. Is there any improvement going on with the millennials in churches today in the...

50:59

Yes. Abortion is actually an issue, and I know you've probably talked about this, Chris, where millennials' hearts and minds are completely different than generations before them when it comes to abortion.

51:11

They're overwhelmingly pro -life. My concern is that they're not being convictional about it, though.

51:17

So, like we were talking earlier, yes, I'm so glad that my generation is more pro -life than ever before, but I want them to be convictional about it.

51:27

I want them to stand up and talk about the harms abortion has on women. I want them to be willing to give support to women who have had abortions and pray with them, but to not deny the reality that this was a murder, right?

51:43

I'm so... I'm optimistic about the future because my generation is changing its mind as far as abortion goes, because again, if we're not willing to stand up for vulnerable life, then there's no social justice issue out there that we're going to actually stand up on as far as leaving our

52:04

Twitter screens, you know? I mean, beyond the social media activism. I mean, actually doing something that is loving and compassionate and also shares the gospel uncompromised, and abortion is that issue.

52:17

So I encourage older Christians to not be afraid to talk about it. I'm certainly not.

52:22

I bring it up... I'm a Sunday school teacher. I forgot to mention this, I think, and I talk about abortion in my

52:27

Sunday school class, and I've had a mother ask, why do you talk about... why are you talking about this with my kid?

52:33

And I've said, because they actually deal with this. They have, you know, 14 -year -old friends who get pregnant and consider abortion.

52:41

Don't you want them to know how to handle this topic? Don't you want them to know what Christ would actually want them to say about this issue?

52:48

So younger Christians, though, we are more pro -life than ever before, probably largely to do with the sonogram and our love for human rights, and that unborn baby has a human right to live, and that's an easy message to convey.

53:01

You mentioned social media. I happen to thank God every day for social media, because that's how the majority of people discover my show,

53:10

Iron Sharpens Iron. In fact, I have listeners globally because of it. But what has social media contributed to the problems that you're describing?

53:19

Yeah, so I would say that the left are really good with soundbites, right? They're really great with 142 characters on Twitter that make them seem really compassionate and loving and can really make the other guy look like a bigot, right?

53:33

So when it comes to talking about these issues, apologetics, those are tough issues and complex.

53:40

It's hard to put them into a tweet. It takes time and consistency and studying, and it doesn't take that much time when you just have a fluffy little tweet that, you know, is more about your politics than your theology.

53:56

So I do worry that a young Christian sees a very popular blogger and author online, and their tweets sound really pissy and good, yet they don't know the truth or the inaccuracy behind that statement.

54:11

You know, for example, um, Jesus only hung out with the marginalized. Well, that's not entirely true.

54:17

Jesus' disciples were pretty boring and non -marginalized people.

54:24

You know, Paul was not marginalized before he met Christ by any means. He was very prominent in position, but God still chose to transform his life and use him.

54:33

So I just think that they know how to use really nice -sounding words, but there's nothing behind them.

54:42

How do you think, or how does music contribute to this ideological gulf? As you see it, what is contemporary

54:50

Christian music doing to the health of evangelicalism? I know this is one of the most divisive issues in the

54:58

Church, is music, but if you could comment on that. Sure. I love all, I will start by saying I love all kinds of worship music, but it's more about the lyrics to me than anything.

55:07

I love contemporary Christian music, I love hymns, but it's more about the message that I'm singing.

55:14

And unfortunately, there are some Christian songs out there on the contemporary radio station that don't have any substance to them, or at times actually aren't completely accurate as far as theology goes.

55:29

So I do think that might be contributing to this cheap grace idea that God is love and he transforms our lives, but really there's nothing to be transformed from because sin and hell don't actually exist, they're human constructs.

55:45

So I do have a problem with some song, some artist on the contemporary

55:50

Christian radio station, but I would do not dismiss the style of worship by any means.

55:55

And to define, you've used the term cheap grace throughout the program. Cheap grace is basically fruitless

56:02

Christianity, an alleged conversion that occurs with no real evidence being demonstrated in a person's life.

56:12

Isn't that basically what you're saying? Exactly, yeah. And to read more, I strongly recommend

56:17

Dietrich Bonhoeffer's The Cost of Discipleship. It's a great book, especially if you want to disciple young Christians.

56:23

That's a book to start with that will really help you. Now going back to the music, although I agree with you,

56:29

I have a very eclectic taste in music, but I think that the style of music does come into play, especially when you have worship services becoming more like concerts and more like entertainment than actual worship.

56:45

And when words of a song cannot really be sung by a congregation, and you're just viewing one or two people or groups singing, and you're just as a spectator absorbing this.

56:58

Now I'm not saying that that's always wrong either, having the music that's not meant for congregational singing.

57:04

But you see where I'm coming from? Don't you think that that can... Oh, absolutely, yeah. And you know, I recognize there are, and we also recognize there are savvy marketers behind the music, even the

57:13

Christian music industry, and they know that pop music like Taylor Swift does really well.

57:19

So how can we transform Christian music to sound like pop Taylor Swift's music? And I have heard it called

57:25

Jesus is Your Boyfriend music, and no, I do have a problem with that type of style.

57:31

And yes, I would say that there probably are certain styles of music that are more vulnerable or susceptible to that marketing strategy.

57:40

That can be problematic. Are traditional churches with traditional worship services the problem?

57:45

From the perspective of young adults, is traditional worship a total turnoff? No, there are a lot of young Christians who are actually becoming more drawn to a more liturgical style of service and worship, which is good news as long as that liturgy is orthodox.

58:03

So I wouldn't say it's style. I think probably in the late 90s, early 2000s, we heard a lot about style.

58:09

You have to change, you have to wear skinny jeans in order to attract millennials.

58:15

That's not necessarily the truth. You just really have to be consistent, willing to create a relationship, disciple, and stand firm.

58:24

And I do think that's a formula that has worked throughout history and will continue to work. So don't buy into the media strategies that don't work.

58:32

And finally, is there any credible hope for evangelical Christianity in the next generation?

58:39

Yes. When the Supreme Court decision happened, standing outside representing the conservative

58:46

Christians were mostly young Christians, most of them my friends, who work for non -profits for very little money in this city, who are working very hard to influence this country for the common good and for Christ.

58:59

So yes, that's good news, and I hope that you don't give up on us. We do exist.

59:06

Well, I want to thank you so much for being a part of my program, and I definitely want you to return, in fact, often if your schedule permits, and God willing.

59:16

And thank you so much for being a part of the broadcast. And we do still have a couple of listener questions that we did not have the time to read, and you will be, since you took the time to write, you will be getting a free copy of Chelsen's book,

59:31

Distortion, How the New Christian Left is Twisting the Gospel and Damaging the

59:38

Faith. And the website, once again, for the Institute on Religion and Democracy is theird .org.

59:46

That's T -H -E -I -R -D dot O -R -G. Thank you so much,

59:52

Chelsen Vicari. We look forward to you returning to Iron Sharpens Iron. My pleasure, Chris. And we're going to be going to a break right now, and if you please stay with us, because we have

01:00:05

Latane C. Scott, who is a former Mormon who, by the grace and mercy of Christ, converted to biblical

01:00:11

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01:00:21

Christ of the Scripture, the second person of the triune God, and is worshiping together with us the

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Trinity, and is believing in and embracing the authentic beliefs of the

01:00:35

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01:00:53

And if you have any questions for Latane C. Scott, we urge you to email us at ChrisArnzen at gmail dot com.

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ChrisArnzen at gmail dot com. And please include your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if indeed you live outside of the

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01:04:55

This is Chris Arnzen, and if you've just tuned us in, this is now beginning the second hour of our program today on Iron Sharpens Iron.

01:05:04

We just had Chelsen Vakarian for the first hour discussing her book,

01:05:09

Distortion, how the new Christian left is twisting the gospel and damaging the faith.

01:05:16

Right now, we've got a dear friend of mine for a number of years, Latane C. Scott, who is a brilliant author.

01:05:24

She has written books such as The Mormon Mirage. A former member looks at the

01:05:30

Mormon church today, Why We Left Mormonism, Eight People Tell Their Stories, and Discovering the

01:05:37

City of Sodom, the fascinating true account of the discovery of the

01:05:43

Old Testament's most infamous city. And I am going to,

01:05:49

God willing, be interviewing Latane C. Scott and her co -author on that last book sometime in September.

01:05:56

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, my dear friend,

01:06:01

Latane C. Scott. I'm so happy to be back here, Chris. Thank you so much for inviting me.

01:06:07

Well, the pleasure is all mine, and I'm sure my listeners as well. And I know that you are a

01:06:14

Mormon, or should I say you were a Mormon, who converted by the grace of God to Christianity and the embracing of his shed blood on the cross alone for your deliverance from sin and the penalty thereof.

01:06:34

And if you could, before we go into our main discussion today, because we have gone into this in depth in the past, perhaps just give our listeners an abbreviated version of your coming to Christ out of the cult known as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

01:06:51

Saints. Well, Chris, I was, and I've often said

01:06:56

I was the happiest Mormon I knew. I lived just in great satisfaction the life of a faithful Mormon, and it was during my, right after my junior year at Brigham Young University that I was attending on scholarship.

01:07:14

I went back to my hometown and met a young man who challenged some of my

01:07:22

Mormon beliefs, and I did not feel that it was any danger to my faith to explore these things with him.

01:07:30

And after all, I was waiting for a Mormon missionary who later became one of the general authorities of the

01:07:36

Mormon Church. So I was, my future I thought was quite tied in, and that I would, you know, get married in the temple to this missionary when he came back from his mission to Germany, and that as my patriarchal blessing given to me by my state patriarch said,

01:07:53

I was going to be a leader of women in the church and a leader of women in the state where I lived.

01:07:59

And so for me, being home for the summer, working through the money to go back to BYU for the expenses that were paid for by my scholarship, just dating this young man seemed very innocuous.

01:08:14

I wasn't engaged to the Mormon missionary, and so I met this young man, and he started asking me questions about Mormonism, and he did a very wise thing.

01:08:26

He got reliable books about Mormonism that made me think, because he himself did not have the background in Mormonism to be able to counter many of my beliefs in Mormonism.

01:08:37

And I spent that summer becoming more and more miserable because the books were showing me that what

01:08:45

I'd been taught in Mormonism could not be reconciled to what the Bible itself taught.

01:08:51

And of course, as a Mormon, I respected the Bible, but I also had just a little bit of hesitancy about accepting it as God's word, because as a

01:09:02

Mormon, I believed that it had been mistranslated in certain places. And because of that, whenever there was a difference between what the

01:09:10

Bible said and what another Mormon source, such as a prophet or the

01:09:16

Pearl of Great Price or the Doctrine and Covenants, said that I would always go with what the

01:09:22

Mormon source said because it was more recent, it was directly from the horse's mouth, as we might say, and because the

01:09:32

Bible had gone through 1 ,800 years, 1 ,900 years of translations that I thought made it unreliable.

01:09:39

I had been taught by Mormonism that made it unreliable. But when I saw that some of the things that were left in the

01:09:47

Bible, according to the Mormon view of how the Bible got here, those things condemned Mormonism.

01:09:53

It really started me thinking, and people have often asked me, well, wasn't that a glorious thought to be true with Mormonism and break into the light of Christianity?

01:10:03

And I tell them, no, it was a horrible, miserable experience because I had loved

01:10:09

Mormonism so much, and also because I challenge any

01:10:14

Christian listening that if you woke up tomorrow morning and found out that the God that you were worshiping had never existed, and that you had placed all your faith and all your hope and trust in a fictional character, you would not feel liberated and wonderful to find that out.

01:10:32

You would feel devastated, as I did. So I finished that summer and went back to Brigham Young University, thinking that I could just finish off my year there, and actually a little more than a semester, get my degree, and just try to sort things out.

01:10:48

But seeing Brigham Young University through the eyes of someone who had questions about it made it a very different experience.

01:10:58

And I left EYU just a couple of weeks into that first semester, came back to my hometown, and kind of hammered it out with this young man and with his minister and with other people until I was satisfied that Mormonism was wrong.

01:11:16

But just because Mormonism was wrong didn't make his way of thinking, this young man's way of thinking, nor his pastor's way of thinking right.

01:11:25

And so I had to go through yet another process of just making sure that I was going in the right direction.

01:11:34

And I put on my Lord and Baptism in September of that year, the end of September, and I surrendered to the

01:11:45

Lord Jesus Christ. But it was a long time before I could actually trust Him and love

01:11:50

Him. I was willing to admit He was the God of the universe, that His Father and He had created this world and excluded those doctrines and practices and teachings and writings that were exclusively

01:12:04

Mormon, that the God of the universe was not what I'd been taught. That it took a long time before I felt a warmness and a trust toward Him, which, praise

01:12:15

God, I do now feel. Well, you can learn more about the

01:12:22

Mormonism that Latane left and the new faith that she embraced, the faith that is taught in the

01:12:34

Holy Scriptures about the Lord Jesus Christ and His cross and His resurrection and His grace.

01:12:41

We could read more about the journey of Latane C. Scott from Mormonism into Christianity and more about the technical aspects of Mormonism and the heresies of Mormonism in the

01:12:54

Mormon Mirage. A former member looks at the Mormon church today and why we left

01:13:02

Mormonism. Eight people tell their stories. You could go to Latane's website for more information at latane .com.

01:13:10

That's L -A -T -A -Y -N -E dot com. That's latane .com.

01:13:16

And you'll find out how to order those books. You can also get these books from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

01:13:24

And their website is C -V for Cumberland Valley, B -B for Bible Book S for Service dot com.

01:13:32

C -V -B -B -S dot com. Cumberland Valley Bible Book is a sponsor of the

01:13:38

Iron Sharpens Iron program. And we thank you, all you folks over at C -V -B -B -S for your support.

01:13:45

In fact, a percentage of every book you buy from C -V -B -B -S, a percentage of the monies that come from those purchases will be donated to Iron Sharpens Iron.

01:13:58

So I just thank C -V -B -B -S for that arrangement that they graciously and willingly made with me and Iron Sharpens Iron.

01:14:08

And today's subject is actually on abortion. A friend of mine who many of you in the

01:14:18

Iron Sharpens Iron audience have heard me interview, Dr. David Murray, posted an interesting, a fascinating and very moving article by Latane C.

01:14:31

Scott. You could go to Dr. David Murray's blog at Head Heart Hand dot org.

01:14:40

Head Heart Hand dot org. Dr. David Murray is a professor at Puritan Reform Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

01:14:49

And even though I've known Latane for years and have interviewed her a number of times,

01:14:56

I did not know this story that she's going to share with us today. And Latane, this is about, as you know, the abortion issue.

01:15:05

And you know someone very well who was a candidate, if you will, for the typical abortion story.

01:15:14

Somebody who would typically be prone to or even counseled to get an abortion.

01:15:20

If you could start with the story of this woman that you know very well. Well, I know a woman who was telling me her story about her experience with abortion.

01:15:36

And she told me about growing up in a Christian home, you know, a church going home.

01:15:42

And even though she believed in the Lord herself, and even though she was a believer herself, she was quite rebellious against her home life, against the community that she grew up in, in a little town in rural

01:16:01

Tennessee. And she met a young man that she was quite taken with.

01:16:07

And her parents just strongly disagreed with her choice of a boyfriend and just told her, you know, this is not a good choice for you.

01:16:15

This is not what we had hoped for you. But the more the parents objected to this young man, the more attractive he became to her, which is kind of the way it often goes.

01:16:26

And she continued in her relationship. And one day, she got up and she decided she didn't want to go to high school anymore.

01:16:33

She was 17 years old. And this young man was actually going to be leaving to go take a job out west.

01:16:41

And so she and he ran away from home. She just left a note for her parents saying that she'd call them later, that she had run away to get married.

01:16:50

And they crossed the state line into Mississippi, where she could marry without her parents' permission, being underage.

01:16:59

They were married, and within, you know, 48 hours, she found herself over 1 ,000 miles away from home and discovered to her horror that this man was a violent man, that he was mentally ill.

01:17:15

And when she did call her parents to tell her parents where she was, her parents told her, now you've made your bed.

01:17:23

Now you lie in it. And she had no resources.

01:17:30

There she was without even a high school diploma, thousands of miles or over 1 ,000 miles away from her home, everybody she knew except for her new husband.

01:17:42

And the physical violence against herself began at that time.

01:17:48

And she was devastated and had no resources. Well, her husband made her go back to high school and finish her high school.

01:18:02

And she got a job and found herself, a couple years after they were married, found herself pregnant.

01:18:11

And she knew that everything her parents had told her was true, that this was not going to be a good life, it was not going to be an easy life.

01:18:20

But she had no options. And if she tells me that if she had had the option of aborting that baby that she was carrying at that time, she certainly would have done it.

01:18:30

Not out of revenge against her husband or any other bad motive, but she did not want to bring a child into an atmosphere that she very well knew was violent and abusive.

01:18:45

And also with that wild card element of mental illness that would be unpredictability of such a person.

01:18:58

And she tried to make the best of it. And 19 months later, she found herself pregnant with another child.

01:19:05

Again, no options, no, you know, she knew what she was bringing the child into, and she had no way of doing anything better about it.

01:19:17

And she tried to maintain her spiritual life. You know, she really yearned for a spiritual life.

01:19:23

She could play the piano really well and started attending a little Baptist church in a rural community, very, very small community.

01:19:33

But her husband thought men were looking at her playing the piano, and so he would take the spark plugs out of her car so she could go to church and just kind of heighten the noose of his influence around her.

01:19:48

And she continued on, and a while later, about nine years later, she had another child.

01:19:58

And they moved to a slightly larger town, but it still, it was a cycle of violence and a cycle of abuse and a cycle of unpredictability.

01:20:09

And not only was he unstable in that way, he would take off with the family money and she'd have to go through the house and find furniture or other things to sell to be able to get money for groceries.

01:20:23

And meanwhile, this man who was a railroader, he had started out as a, at the very bottom of the rungs in the railroad industry and worked himself up to being a fireman engineer on the

01:20:38

Santa Fe Railroad. And he began taking mistresses on the other end of his run or his line.

01:20:47

And he would come home and tell his wife that these women were younger than her and prettier than her.

01:20:54

And the last Christmas that they were married, he bought a beautiful diamond and emerald ring for one of his mistresses and gave his wife $20 and told her to buy

01:21:05

Christmas for the three children and herself. Well, she had finally, though, through work and through other things, she had saved up enough money for a divorce.

01:21:18

And she filed for divorce. And the day that the divorce papers were served on her husband, he became very ill with a brain abscess.

01:21:27

And she stayed with him and tried to help him recuperate. But this exacerbated his mental condition.

01:21:38

And she was left to raise these two children, three children, two teenagers and a toddler by herself.

01:21:49

And when she tells me this story about how difficult it had been, you know, she's crying, I'm crying.

01:21:54

And she says that, you know, everything that every bad prediction anybody made about that marriage came true.

01:22:01

It really was not a good place to raise children. But I feel this great deal of love for her.

01:22:10

And think about the fact that when she had that first baby, her husband dropped her off at a hospital and said, don't call me until in the morning.

01:22:17

You know, I need my sleep. Whatever the baby is, well, you know, we'll deal with it later. And shows the photograph, she shows me this photograph of her holding that baby, black and white photograph of a kind of a stunned looking young 20 year old woman holding a little baby.

01:22:35

And the baby was me. Absolutely.

01:22:41

And I look at that picture. And as I speak with my mother about her experiences,

01:22:47

I know that everything she said was true. I mean, I lived through it. But I also have another set of knowledge that superintends and is greater than my own experience or her own experience.

01:23:03

And that is what the Bible says about human life. And I'm puzzled because even with all of this great furor over Planned Parenthood's selling of the parts of young children, unborn children or sometimes birth children, living children taking their organs.

01:23:29

Um, I, that is, that is one issue.

01:23:35

But the other issue is why any woman would believe and think that she knows enough about the future that she can kill another human being to prevent that human being from experiencing what the mother predicts.

01:23:54

And that is exactly the position my mother found herself in. She believed she knew enough about the future that she could,

01:24:03

I guess, in her way of thinking, protect a child against the violence that ended up happening.

01:24:11

But none of us have that knowledge, of course, you know. And also playing into this is the fact that as human beings, the

01:24:23

Bible tells us that it's appropriate for a man or a woman or a child wants to die and then comes judgment.

01:24:32

So each of us has a lifespan that begins, I believe, at conception and can be cut short in the womb, just out of the womb or at any other point in time.

01:24:45

And after that death, there are no do -overs. There aren't any second chances.

01:24:51

Despite that lovely thought that, that I, that so enamored me about, about Mormonism, that you got a second chance at making a decision for what they call the gospel after one's death.

01:25:04

And you could be, have a baptism for the dead then, for you or for someone else.

01:25:09

Well, that's, that's unbiblical. That's not true. Unfortunately, there are no second chances.

01:25:15

This is all there is. And if the Bible's true, there are, there is no reincarnation.

01:25:22

There are no overs. And when I describe my childhood, even just passionately from this distance, about what happened to me, about the great amount of violence that happened, especially toward my brother, more toward my brother than toward me, it was not a great childhood, but it was my childhood.

01:25:44

It was my life. It's what I came out of to be who I am. And it stands as a witness to what

01:25:54

Romans 8, 28 says, that God works all things together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose, to those who love

01:26:04

Him. And that He will do that for anyone's unborn child.

01:26:10

And I wonder, you know, as I say this story, when I, when I have heard,

01:26:15

I'd rather have lived than not have lived. I would rather have my life than not have any life at all, no matter how rotten elements of it were.

01:26:27

And so I appeal, if there's anyone listening here who might be contemplating an abortion, none of us knows enough about the future to predict what's going to happen.

01:26:39

No one knows enough to try to protect someone by killing them.

01:26:46

And no one else has the right to take a human life and sacrifice it because of what they think is best.

01:26:56

And especially when the human life that has done no wrong, has done, has committed no fault, and who is in the position he or she is in as a fetus, or as a, even as an embryo, who made no choice to be there in the first place.

01:27:17

Yeah, that's quite a... When thinking about that, I urge them to consider the fact that none of us knows enough to do that.

01:27:27

No one can, no one can with any certainty predict how life is going to turn out.

01:27:35

Well, that's quite a powerful story. And I hope that God uses that story, not only during the live broadcast that is being conducted right now, but as this program is archived, and many other people hear it in the future,

01:27:53

God willing, that women are moved to realize that it would be a grave and serious and damnable mistake to murder the life of their unborn child, to snuff it out, and in a very barbarous way that it usually occurs.

01:28:13

And hopefully this will also inflame the zeal of many to be more vocal against this horrific, wicked sin that our nation is guilty of, the sin of infanticide.

01:28:26

And people have long used the the facade of being compassionate and merciful.

01:28:34

Even in this particular subject, you have physicians telling people that because a child may be born with a deformity or disability, that the better thing or the best thing or the more merciful and kind thing to do is to kill it.

01:28:54

And you even had the Nazis, who as a part of their educational films being hosted by scientists and physicians in the

01:29:05

Third Reich, when they began to perform euthanasia on retarded and other mentally handicapped and physically disabled individuals, they did it as a way of being merciful and kind and compassionate.

01:29:24

And this is just the absolute opposite of what it is. It's really born out of selfishness, and it is born out of evil, and it is born out of hell itself.

01:29:36

And we're going to be right back with our guest, Latane C. Scott, to discuss this matter more after these messages.

01:29:43

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:29:50

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please include at least your first name and the city and state of your residence or your country of residence if outside the

01:29:59

USA. And I understand, of course, if this is about a personal and private matter, especially if it involves an abortion or something to that effect, you may feel free to remain anonymous when you write in.

01:30:13

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:30:19

Don't go away. We're going to be right back with Latane C. Scott and more of our discussion on abortion.

01:30:26

You never know whose life will be taken as a result of an abortion being performed.

01:30:33

We'll be right back. Hi, I'm Mike Gallagher.

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01:33:43

This is Chris Zarnes. And if you just joined us, our guest for this second hour of Iron Sharpens Iron is

01:33:49

Latane C. Scott, who is a prolific writer. And she is also a speaker and a former

01:33:56

Mormon who, by the grace and mercy of Christ, converted to Christianity and was saved by his atoning blood.

01:34:04

And we are discussing abortion. You never know whose life will be taken every time an abortion is performed.

01:34:11

And Latane just gave us a very moving account about a woman who was the perfect type of candidate for an abortion, a young woman who is facing spousal abuse and brutal treatment and facing a future of poverty and violence and pregnant.

01:34:37

And she was faced with the type of choice that many women are faced with and unfortunately and tragically are often counseled not only by friends, family, parents, but even physicians and even clergymen, whatever that means, clergymen and clergywomen, to have these babies, these precious babies murdered in the womb.

01:35:06

And we thank God that Latane's mom did not go through with that act of abortion, as Latane revealed that was her mother that she was speaking about during that very moving story.

01:35:24

And we hope you join us on the air with a question for Latane, even if you must remain anonymous, but if you can provide your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:35:38

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Before I return to our discussion with Latane, I just want to repeat the information about the

01:35:46

Pro -Life event this Monday in the New York City metropolitan area. The Long Island Family Coalition and the

01:35:53

Long Island Remnant Awakening and other Long Island Pro -Life groups are inviting you and your congregation to join them at a peaceful Pro -Life demonstration that will demand an end to the horror of abortion and the government funding of Planned Parenthood in front of U .S.

01:36:11

Senator Chuck Schumer's office located at 145 Pine Lawn Road in Melville, Long Island on Monday, August 17th, starting at 11 a .m.

01:36:21

If you'd like more information about this event, you can reach the Long Island Family Coalition chairman,

01:36:26

Pastor Bruce Bennett, on his cell phone, 631 -806 -0614, 631 -806 -0614, or email him at pastorbruce at optonline .net,

01:36:43

pastorbruce at optonline .net. We thank Pastor Bruce Bennett of the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island for submitting that very important announcement.

01:36:54

It might be interesting to our listeners to know that a couple of people, and I'm sure the list would be far too long to read, but a couple of people that most of you have heard of,

01:37:05

Andrea Pacelli, who is the very well -known blind opera singer, he was a candidate for an abortion, and his mother considered having him aborted.

01:37:21

He was born out of wedlock, and thankfully his mother did not have this young baby, this precious baby, murdered in the womb.

01:37:34

And Andrea Pacelli is now very passionately pro -life.

01:37:40

I don't know anything else about his faith or religious beliefs, but he has a very moving

01:37:46

YouTube video that you can look up on YouTube where he discusses his belief in the sanctity of human life in relation to his own testimony.

01:37:56

And of course, Tim Tebow, the NFL player that many of you have heard about, who is a born -again

01:38:03

Christian, his mother also contemplated having an abortion, and she now goes and speaks at churches about the dangers and horrors of abortion, and the fact that how thankful to God she is that her own son

01:38:21

Tim's life was spared. But, Letaine, the thing that puzzles a lot of us who are looking at Mormonism from the outside in regard to the issue of abortion, because you were a

01:38:36

Mormon at one point, we find it mind -boggling that there are Mormons who seem to be members in good standing of the

01:38:46

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints who are pro -abortion. You have

01:38:52

Harry Reid, for instance, and at one time, for most of his political career,

01:38:58

Mitt Romney, another Mormon who is running for president, and so on.

01:39:04

How does this contradiction exist in the

01:39:10

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, because they typically come across as being in agreement, lockstep agreement, with the conservative evangelical movement in regards to matters of morals and social behavior and so on?

01:39:28

Well, when I was a Mormon, Chris, people who did not agree with Mormon doctrine pretty much kept their mouths shut.

01:39:38

You know, they were not open about it, and I don't think anybody would have been electable in the state of Utah in the 1960s and 70s if he or she had been pro -abortion or some of the other social issues that we think of as being associated with what is otherwise a politically conservative group.

01:40:01

Now, I understand that Harry Reid would not be regarded as politically conservative, but I'm saying the

01:40:08

Church itself was politically conservative. In fact, as recently as the last few years, the

01:40:17

Mormon Church actually took quite an active role in defeating legislation in California to bring about homosexual marriage.

01:40:34

But the Church has done some tremendous changing, not only doctrinally but in its practices, and the

01:40:42

Mormon Church of today would be unrecognizable to the Mormon of the 60s or the 70s or even the early 80s, because the

01:40:49

Mormon Church is conceding in an official way.

01:40:56

It is conceding acquiescence to a lot of the social issues, such as abortion, such as same -sex marriage, that it so adamantly opposed earlier.

01:41:11

Now, not so much with abortion, but certainly with same -sex marriage. And is it true that if a bishop in a private consultation with a pregnant woman gives her the seal of approval to have abortion performed, is that within the realm of Mormon orthodoxy?

01:41:36

Is that looked upon as acceptable? Not to my knowledge. Now, perhaps anecdotally, someone can provide information about that, but that's not my understanding, even today, of Mormon doctrine.

01:41:52

Okay. Well, going back to the issue of this being a matter that has fallen under the disguise of women's rights, you are a woman, a very brilliant and gifted woman, a very accomplished woman.

01:42:13

And has this ever been a part of your ideology where you viewed the fact that since women have had their rights trampled on in years past and have been treated at times brutally and like property and so on, and as the rights began to emerge for the various freedoms that are considered to be inalienable rights of every person living in this nation, was that ever a part of the makeup of your mindset to think that a woman should have the right to do what she pleases to do with her own body, and if she is going to be the one carrying a baby and giving birth to it, she should have the right to, quote -unquote, terminate that pregnancy?

01:43:09

Well, I see several questions there, and I'll try to tackle them as I can.

01:43:15

First of all, I belong to a fellowship in which women remain silent during church services.

01:43:22

And I don't do that because it's imposed upon me. I do that because it's a biblical picture to anyone coming in from the outside of the way that the church submits to Christ and Christ submits to the

01:43:37

Father. And so by my silence in a church service, and I don't mean I don't sing, but by my holding myself back, you know,

01:43:47

I've got a PhD in theology and yet I don't, you know, I would never dream of trying to take over a church service or hijack a church service because I'm not there to correct anybody.

01:43:59

I'm there to model something for my fellow brothers and sisters and for any outsider that came in, and that is a biblical picture of submission that even

01:44:11

Jesus Christ does. And if he submitted, who am I to say that I refuse to submit to the structure that set up?

01:44:21

Now, that being said, I have explored in a full -length novel the ancient notion that perhaps a woman wrote a book of the

01:44:37

Bible, and that is the Epistle to the Hebrews. And I've researched that quite thoroughly, and I think that according to even some ancient writers and some more modern ones, the logical candidate for the writing of the book of Hebrews, because of the different style and because of the positionality of the writer and the fact that that person's name for some reason has never come down through history, definitely attached to a book of the

01:45:12

Bible. I believe it's very possible and probably even likely that Priscilla wrote the book of Hebrews.

01:45:20

Well, that's kind of where you start getting personal with people when they have to consider the fact that the

01:45:28

Lord could possibly have worked with a woman in that way to produce

01:45:33

Scripture. Well, he did with Mary and the Magnificat, and we have the words of Hannah in the

01:45:39

Old Testament, and we have the words of Miriam, and we have more words from Rahab in the

01:45:46

Old Testament than we have from the spies, for instance. So it's not that women,

01:45:52

I believe that women don't have the ability for the Lord to work with them and perhaps even produce, as in those cases that I just mentioned, to produce his truth coming out of their lips.

01:46:08

But there's a big difference between being used by the Lord that way and deciding that you have to lord it over men or women because of something that you know or have been given from the

01:46:24

Lord. Another reason why I'm just, you know, that it reaffirms to me the wrongness of abortion is my first grandchild, my precious little

01:46:38

Cainan, wouldn't exist if his mother hadn't made a decision after having several children out of wedlock that this one was going to be different and turning him over to an adoption agency by which he came into the home of my son and daughter -in -law.

01:46:55

And so that's another big reason why abortion is reprehensible to me, because I wouldn't have that precious little boy in my life.

01:47:06

Well, you know, the Lord could do anything, but the Lord chose to let us know the preciousness of human life through this little boy that is a part of our lives.

01:47:16

And you know, Chris, while I say that abortion is reprehensible, it's a sin like any other sin that separates us from God, and it's not unforgivable.

01:47:26

It's certainly not anything that the Lord, that His grace and compassion cannot extend to.

01:47:35

But my purpose is not to condemn the person who has avoided or even has considered abortion, but my purpose is to help the woman who might someday find herself in that position to understand that that's not her choice to make, even though it is her body.

01:47:53

It's not her choice. Yes, we have the Apostle Paul as a prime example of someone who had men and women rounded up to be executed when he was sole of Tarsus before his conversion and acting upon the zeal of his

01:48:11

Pharisaic Judaism, was involved in the murder of people, including Stephen. He was a coat -check boy, if you will, at the stoning of Stephen and observed it and gave it his approval.

01:48:26

So if the Lord and the blood of Christ can cover that sin and those sins of the

01:48:34

Apostle, who calls himself in the scriptures the chief of sinners, then that blood shed by Christ can cover the sin of anyone who comes in repentance and faith to him.

01:48:51

We do have an anonymous listener who writes and says, when you are sitting one -on -one in your living room or elsewhere with someone considering an abortion, do you have a brief step -by -step scenario that you can share with us that might be helpful to us as we seek to rescue these babies who are potentially going to be murdered in the womb in a way that will not frighten these women away, but at the same time give them the realities of what they are considering to do?

01:49:31

Very good question. There is a great article that came out not too long ago, maybe about five or six years ago, a study that was done in the

01:49:43

Netherlands, and these researchers took fetuses or took women who were carrying fetuses and used different sound devices that a fetus could hear inside the womb and used these little sonic devices to show that babies can become habituated to certain sounds, or they can be startled by certain sounds, and that they will actually react to these sounds based on their memories of previous times that this has happened.

01:50:17

In other words, fetuses can remember things, and I think a good way, I think a good way, a good third -party way, to show a woman that what she's carrying inside her is something that not only feels pain and in dying would not do it pleasantly, as we know from abortion procedures, but this is something that is already interacting with her, just because the baby is in the womb does not mean that baby is not interacting with her voice and with the rhythms and sounds of that woman's mind, and so it's very artificial,

01:50:59

I would say, to consider that when that baby's head breaks through the woman's tissues to the outside world that there is a giant change that has happened, because that child has already been interacting with you, has already become part of your family and part of your home, just because through the sounds and the sensations that the baby not only experiences, but remembers and draws conclusions from.

01:51:29

We do have a listener in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, Christian, who wants to know your response to this.

01:51:39

I find it ironic that women who describe themselves as feminists, who are very pro -abortion and use that issue as a hallmark of the women's rights movement in our modern day,

01:51:58

I find it ironic that they are really giving a free pass to chauvinists and misogynists who view women in a very disgraceful way and can therefore have more freedom to use them sexually free from responsibility, because they know there is a likelihood or a possibility that the women will receive or have an abortion.

01:52:28

If you could react to that. I would not only agree with that,

01:52:35

I might go even a little bit further, not only do women themselves become more subject to men, and kind of be ironic the way that the other person said, if you look just historically, especially in China, my husband and I actually visited

01:52:54

China in the 1980s, when it first was open to westerners to visit it.

01:53:03

And on tour guide, we were asking about how many children he had, and he had one child. Historically, abortion has been used to limit the number of females who are female light of day, literally.

01:53:15

And so it's kind of ironic that women would be advocating this, what they would call their freedom, their reproductive freedoms, when actually people who end up being murdered by abortion, statistically, or in a focused and aimed way, are women first.

01:53:39

Yeah, that's a great point. In fact, it reminds me of a story that I just brought up recently in the news.

01:53:48

You may recall this as well, there was a very heavily televised and publicized case of a husband who murdered his pregnant wife, and because the baby within her womb died as a result of the mother being murdered, the husband was being charged with double homicide.

01:54:14

And the National Organization for Women, their initial reaction to that was protest that this monster of a husband who murdered his wife, they were demanding that he not be charged with a more serious crime of double homicide, because they realized it jeopardized their fight for women's freedom to have abortions.

01:54:45

But isn't that totally ironic and absurd when you think about it? Yeah, it really is.

01:54:52

My friend Mark Toombs, who's a minister, brought up a point that Planned Parenthood stands in the same case as the great red dragon in the birth, so he could devour it.

01:55:11

There are so many, with all the Bible, except in the book of Leviticus, I think, doesn't really even approach the subject of abortion per se.

01:55:24

Just this one image of that being something horrible and reprehensible, standing literally at the feet of a woman and ready to devour her child or sell it or dismember it or whatever.

01:55:39

Yeah, that's a profound image there. When all is said and done, when it comes to this issue, one's self is really being exalted far above the place where one should view their place in this world, and they are clearly putting their own concerns above the life of a helpless, defenseless child.

01:56:10

It is a disgrace and an insult to womanhood that women's rights are cloaking this barbarous behavior.

01:56:22

Do you have the occasion or the opportunity to speak to many women in your travels that are convinced that this is really just a part of a woman's freedom here in America?

01:56:36

I really don't. Most of the time when people want to talk to me, they want to talk to me about Mormonism or they want to talk to me about writing, about the process of writing and getting published.

01:56:49

My own personal experience with my husband and myself was he had a young woman that was his assistant at work, and we invited this young assistant to come to a concert with us, which was performed by acapella, a group that you're familiar with,

01:57:05

Chris. Oh, yes, definitely. Acapella had a song at that time called, What Was I Supposed to Be?, and it's a song, the lyrics are a child saying, what was

01:57:15

I supposed to be in life, and yet you took my life so I never achieved what I thought it was that God had in mind for me to be.

01:57:25

Ironically, this young woman that we had taken to the concert, we did not know at the time was pregnant. After hearing that song, she went home and made the decision she would, even though she was pregnant, she was unmarried and she was pregnant by a married man, she made the decision to go ahead and give birth to that child, which turned out to be a tremendous blessing to her, and just a testimony that God can take care of things, and true, there is shame often involved in burying a child when you're not married, but it's nothing,

01:57:57

I don't think, comparable to taking the child's life just so you won't be embarrassed. Right, and unfortunately there have been many parents who, because of their nominally held

01:58:12

Christian beliefs, but maybe even from more of a conservative background, because of the very fact that they are ashamed of their child having a child out of wedlock, they have been very often the ones to convince these children of theirs to have the abortions.

01:58:31

Yes, I know several cases of that in my own acquaintances.

01:58:37

Well, if you could, let's just leave our listeners with what you want them most to leave this program with in their hearts and minds.

01:58:45

We serve a Lord who is a Lord of sacrifice, and even though that's not a popular word,

01:58:52

He was a Lord of sacrifice and submission, and I've just been reading the book of John, and he says over and over again,

01:59:00

I just came to do the Father's will, and how can we be any less willing to do that?

01:59:08

If He, the God of the universe, with limitless power, would take on the form of a servant and submit to His Father, why would we not?

01:59:16

Why would we not? Amen. Well, I want to thank you so much, Letaine, for being my guest. I look forward to having you back, and I know your website is letaine .com,

01:59:25

L -A -T -A -Y -N -E .com. I want to thank everybody who listened to both hours, especially those who took the time to write questions.

01:59:32

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

01:59:40

Even if you've had an abortion, there is forgiveness at the cross if you come with faith and repentance.