Stunning: Mormon Doubting Mormonism

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What's up? Hey, it's so good to finally see ya. Yeah. So, uh, my name is Dan, by the way. Okay.

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I, uh, I... Long story short, I was just talking to him, by the way. I was, um, born and raised in the church, went on a mission, married in the temple, all that kind of stuff.

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Oh, wow. And I am, I'm very familiar with your tract. I've watched your YouTube videos.

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Okay. I agree with a lot of what you're saying, and I have a problem with the church.

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Okay. And so, what I'm running into right now is I kind of feel like I'm in a spot where I, I see the contradictions.

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This is definitely, in my heart, I'm believing that this is really not the one and true church. Why don't you come over here?

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Yeah. Essentially, what I'm at right now, and I was speaking to, I didn't even catch his name, he was so busy, but, uh,

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I'm at this place where I see the, I see the contradictions in the church, I see the contradictions against the prophets, you know,

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Brigham Young, or the blacks and the priesthood, I'm aware of all of it. I, I'm having a hard time retaining my

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Christianity. With the same methods. And so, for example, I know that, I know that you know the

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Bible so well. And, I, I run into problems, for example, I know atheists say, which

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I'm not an atheist, by the way, but I know that they, they love to point at scriptures that look like they contradict each other.

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Right. And, I, I want to know if there are answers towards that.

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Also, at the same time, I was speaking to whoever's in charge of your social media, and to see like, hey, when are you guys out here?

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Because, it was really cool that I, I was having all these issues, I ran into one of your videos, and you guys are local. So, I, basically the way they said it, is

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I have a lot of Mormon baggage. And so, I, now that I am questioning the church,

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I'm having a hard time understanding what, you know, the Bible, I believe it says, there's a need for prophets, there's a need for, you know, in Ephesians, prophets, pastors, evangelists, for the perfecting of the saints,

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I believe. And so, you know, I'm, you're aware of Amos 3 -7, and all those kind of things, and so I'm just curious, if, if I'm to believe, which,

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I'm having a hard time, that this is not the true church, and that these prophets are not true, am

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I supposed to believe that prophets are needed in this day? And so, where, where, I guess my question to you is,

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I agree with your tract, and I don't know what to do from this point. Okay. If you go to the

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Bible, and you say, okay, what does the Bible tell me about how God's gonna weave history together, right? Yes, God has spoken,

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Hebrews chapter 1 says, to the fathers, through the prophets, in many times, in many ways,

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He says, but in these last days, God has spoken to us through His Son. So why do we not, as Christians under the

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New Covenant, believe that we have a mediator today, as a prophet, between us and God, speaking to us from God, because fundamentally we have

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Christ? That's the answer. And when someone says, you know, oh, we have a prophet today in Salt Lake, he speaks to us, he speaks to us from God, I would say, well,

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Paul says, there is one God, and one mediator, between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

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So why in the New Covenant, do we not have a prophet today who mediates for us between us and God?

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Because Christ is the full and final revelation of God. The writer of Hebrews demonstrates that Christ is the better priest.

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He's the better prophet. He's the better king. He's the mediator. So, when someone says, yeah, but God always had prophets in the past.

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Right. They were foreshadows of what we would have in Jesus. Why were they so ineffective? Because they all were sinners and died.

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Like, guess what else we had in the Old Testament? Priests, who sacrificed and gave offerings in Yom Kippur.

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And you know what was their problem? They sucked at it. Why? Because they were sinners. The guy who offered sacrifices in Leviticus 16, on Yom Kippur, he had to get up before he ever did the scapegoat, and then the one that died.

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He had to sacrifice for himself. He had to sacrifice for himself, because he was a sinner. So, the writer of Hebrews demonstrates that we've got a better prophet, a better priest, a better king with Christ.

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In the past, yes, God spoke to the fathers, to the prophets. But in these last days, it's through His Son. And when someone says, yeah, what about Ephesians, where it says that God, you know, builds upon, you know, you got pastors, evangelists, teachers, apostles.

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Why don't you have apostles today? And the answer seems rather easy. Apostle, in the

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New Testament, was somebody who had to be a witness to the risen Christ. Okay. So, how come we don't have apostles in a

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New Testament church? Because the apostles are dead. The guys who witnessed the resurrection, the ones who were commissioned as apostles, who witnessed the resurrected

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Christ, they're all gone. They died. So, no more apostles. No. Revelation is, in terms of special revelation, is ceased because the new covenant now is underway.

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We have Christ now. We have bold and confident access, Hebrews says, to come before the throne of God now because we have the righteousness of Christ.

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We're all priests now before God. Not like they say, like they told you.

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I mean, they told you that you, that people have the Melchizedek priesthood.

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Yeah. But Hebrews 7 says that Christ is Melchizedek and His priesthood never passes to another.

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So, the fact... Melchizedek was the high priest.

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And this is another example. You brought up a good point. Like, what about prophets in the Old Testament?

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And you had all this stuff going on. Well, why not today? And I said, well, it's a foreshadow of what we would have in the substance, which was

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Jesus. Those were all shadows. Melchizedek, and the writer of Hebrews says, Melchizedek was a shadow of Christ.

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He appears out of nowhere, right? So, he has no beginning of days and no end of days.

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In the Old Testament, he just sort of appears. And Abraham basically gives him tribute. But he has no beginning and no end.

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And he's the high priest, right? That's the Melchizedek priesthood. He says Christ has the

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Melchizedek priesthood. No beginning of days, no end of days. And He lives forever. And He's the high priest forever.

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And Hebrews says that His priesthood doesn't pass from one to another. So, the fact that in the Mormon church, we're passing around the

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Melchizedek priesthood, and it's like, that's the high priesthood. That's Christ's priesthood. But my point in bringing that up was, not just to try to diss anything, but just to point out that even that priesthood, the

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Melchizedek, how come it's not something that we have in the New Testament? Like, you've got to have a guy who raises up, and he's the

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Melchizedek. Because Christ is Melchizedek. How come you don't have now a mediator between us and God? Because Christ is the only mediator.

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How come you don't have a prophet today, a living prophet? Because Christ is our prophet, our king, our redeemer.

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And so that's fundamentally why. And I think, one of the things I hope you catch as like, bottom line, is, when

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Joseph came along, this is important, I know it's probably hard for you to hear sometimes too, because there's so much, I hope you didn't take that the wrong way, baggage, like, a hurtful thing.

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No, it makes sense. Okay, good. Joseph's whole situation, as big as all this is, as much money as there is, and as far and wide as it's gone, his story, his whole situation, this, all of this, is not unique.

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Muhammad did the same thing in the 6th century. He said, I believe that revelation, the

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Bible, all that's good. He says, but God now has spoken to me, and this is my new revelation.

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And guess what? It's all corrupted. All that stuff is corrupted, but I still believe it. It's still the words of God, but it's all corrupted.

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Well then, what's not corrupt? My book. My revelation, right? So that's Muhammad. Then you've got, in the same century of Joseph, Joseph Smith comes along.

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He says, I've got private revelation from God. This is my revelation from God right here. I believe that book right there.

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I'm standing on it, but it's been corrupted. Believe my message. And then Charles Taze Russell comes along 50 years after Jesus, and he starts the

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Dawn Bible Student Society, and he's now named as pastor, and he comes out with the

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Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, the Jehovah's Witnesses. So it's the same thing. Watch. Bible.

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We believe that, but it's been corrupted. You need our translation. But more important, you need our revelation, our books.

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And if you say, yeah, but those books are contradicting that foundation, they go, well, you believe us.

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Well, why wouldn't I believe that? Well, because we are the authority, right? So if you take it as a position of what has the ultimate authority, it's either going to be

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God, or it's going to be somebody or something else. So for Mormonism, they'll say, I believe the

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Bible, but you say, well, what's the ultimate? They say, well, our revelation. In the Watchtower, they say, believe the

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Bible, but what's the ultimate? Well, it's the Watchtower. If you say Rome, Roman Catholicism, you say, well, you believe the

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Bible? Oh, yeah, we believe the Bible. But how do I know what the Bible says? Oh, you have to listen to the church. We'll interpret that for you, and we will give you divine answers as to what is authoritative.

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So what's that mean? The church is the authority. So every man -made religion always tries to subvert

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God's authority in His word by saying, my voice, my authority. So from the

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Christian church's perspective, for 2 ,000 years, we may disagree with minor things amongst each other, right?

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But if you ask any Christian for 2 ,000 years, where do I go for solace? Where do I go for truth?

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Every Christian has to say. It's not my words. It's God's word. So even as a pastor, when

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I tell my church, and I preach a sermon, I tell them, everything I'm saying to you is only binding insofar that it's actually consistent with Scripture.

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If I say anything that contradicts this word, you reject me. That's a pastor saying, it doesn't matter how

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I feel or what I believe. If it's not consistent with God's word, it's not binding in your conscience. The reason we would say as Christians the creeds and confessions are helpful is not because they're authoritative, because they're consistent with Scripture.

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If they're not consistent with Scripture, you reject it. It's not the authority. So the creeds and confessions are just essentially ways to distill as Christians what the

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Bible teaches. They don't have any authority in themselves. It's the word of God. And so that's the big difference.

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But in the end, I'm thankful to God for where you're at, because as confusing and as hard as all this is,

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God has preserved your mind and your heart, and He's been gracious to you to protect you, in one sense, to show you what's going on, but He hasn't let you fall off into darkness.

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And that's grace. That's God's love. And so I would say that the main thing you need to focus in upon right now is, of course, get your questions answered.

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Yes, get them all answered, right? But the most important thing is your relationship with Christ, the true

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Christ. Faith in Him. Peace with Him. The Bible says, in 2

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Timothy 2, 24 -26, it says, The Lord's servant must be patient when wronged, able to teach, in humility correcting those who oppose themselves, if perhaps

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God may grant them repentance, leading to a knowledge of the truth. So the order there is

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God, by His grace, opens rebels' eyes. We're all rebels and sinners.

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By His grace, He opens our eyes. He grants to us repentance. And that leads us to a knowledge of the truth.

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Right? So I would say this right now. I'm committed in this with you to go and answer all your questions and go through all the hard things, 100%, all the way, as long as it takes.

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But what you need is peace with God. What you need is reconciliation with God. So I think my biggest,

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I would say, issue right now is I know the questions are miniscule. It's not really that important. Coming out of the church,

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I have also in my history a very misconscued version of grace. Yes, of course.

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I've seen how you address that. I'm still confused on where the commandments come in and where work comes in.

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I know the scriptures say we're saved by grace, not through works. But I've also heard you say, you know,

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I still believe that following the commandments is still important. And so I'm curious because we have scriptures that say it's only faith.

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Yes. And then like Matthew, it's 1917 or 1719, he's talking to the young, rich guy.

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Yeah. It's like, what do I do to get into heaven? Right. He gives him the commandments. Right, right. And so I'm not saying Christ has never said you need to have faith.

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But I'm having two things. And so is, or like John 5, is baptism, you know, by water, which

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I, my church, the LDS church, I'm still on that fence, but is baptism important by immersion to enter the kingdom of God?

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You know, my church believes, oh, he went 60 miles or however long it was to go to John the Baptist because he had the Aaronic priesthood.

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That's why the priesthood is so important. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I'm like, my biggest question

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I think you could help me with right now is help me understand what exactly is living faith?

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You know, let's say today I say I accept Christ, I accept his grace. Forget me trying to go to the temple and Earn your salvation, righteousness.

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You know what I mean? But then tomorrow I sin. Am I out of living faith anymore? And I have to regain living faith?

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And is it just this, you know, back and forth? I got it. So the promise of the old covenant, let's start in the

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Old Testament. The promise of the old covenant coming into the new was that when God gave a new covenant, it wouldn't be like the old covenant where we had all those things, right?

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Yeah. That faulty priesthood, like we'd have redemption completed, purchased, and done.

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But there's more. It says that in Ezekiel 36 what God was going to do, he was going to cleanse us.

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He says he was going to put a spirit within us and cause us to obey his statutes.

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He'd give us a new heart where he'd give us a heart of flesh where there was a heart of stone. So what

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God does in the new birth when he raises someone to life and causes them to see

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Jesus for who he is and to trust him, God gives us a new disposition towards God, a new nature.

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And so when we talk about the good works that flow out of our lives, it's in that very same text. If you just read

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Ephesians 2, that's your whole story, man. It says, you were dead in your sins and trespasses, but God made you alive together with him.

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By grace you've been saved. So think about that. Grace is so much grace in Scripture.

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It says that this is what happens. You're dead. Not sick. You're dead.

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You're not moving. You're not breathing. You're spiritually so alienated you're not even crawling to God. You're dead.

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And he says, but God made you alive. By grace you've been saved. That's how gracious God's grace is.

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You're so alienated from God you don't want him. We're rebels against God because we're so sinful he's so holy.

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It says, but God made you alive together with him. And here's where that famous passage comes in. By grace you've been saved through faith and that not of yourselves it's the gift of God not according to works lest any man should boast.

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And here's what lots of people forget to quote. For we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus on two good works which

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God has already prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. So that's why when James is addressing, in James 2, not how we're justified before God.

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He's addressing how do you know someone has living faith? And he says, basically, don't you see

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Abraham? He says, how was he vindicated? How was he justified? Wasn't it through offering his son

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Isaac? How do you know he had living faith? Because he offered Isaac on the altar. That's how you know his faith is real. That's why from a pastoral perspective if, say, in my local church context

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I have someone that's professing the faith in Jesus but there's no pursuit of holiness, no love for God, no love for his word and like a life and pattern of sin

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I'm of course going to try to restore that person but at a certain point I go your life doesn't demonstrate fruit of God being present.

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Right? So I don't go, hey, there's not enough works here to be saved. What I say is there's no works here, no fruit to demonstrate that you even know

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Jesus. You don't know him. And so when you ask the question what if I turn from sin to trust in Christ?

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I have peace with God then I sin tomorrow. Like, do I go in and out of grace with God? The answer is in the major difference between every man -made religion and the faith,

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Christianity. Relationship with God. Every single religion in the world. All of them.

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Even the ones that ape Christianity and try to blend Christ's work with works and righteousness.

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They all teach that it's in some way you stand before God with your record, right?

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Yeah. Of good deeds and bad deeds somehow. Even if it's with Jesus somehow. He's in there too and it's also my righteousness.

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Which is every religion that apes Christianity says that. It's, oh yeah, Jesus did his part. But it's also you gotta have your righteousness.

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Every religion says that you stand before God with your record, your righteousness before God. The Bible says all of our righteousnesses are as filthy rags before God.

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You probably already know that. Sure. But the Bible says in Philippians 3 has one example. Paul gives his resume.

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He says, as to the law of Pharisee, as to zeal, I persecuted the church.

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He says, I was of the tribe of Benjamin. He says, I was circumcised the eighth day. It's a big deal in Judaism.

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And he says, as to the law, as the righteousness and the law, he says, blameless. That's rather tongue -in -cheek because he says that nobody.

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But he says, what you could see, blameless. He says, but whatever I gained with that record of obedience, he says,

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I count it as skubalon, which is essentially the Greek way of saying shit. That's what he says in the

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Bible. He says, it's skubalon. That's how graphic he wants to get. He wants you to know that this record of righteousness before God is skubalon.

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And he says, and I want to be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the law, but that which comes from God through faith in Jesus.

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So what he says is that when you turn to Christ and you're in Christ through faith, you have

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Christ's righteousness. His obedience to the law is credited to you. Your guilt and sin and shame was credited to him.

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That's the great exchange. In Christ, you have his righteousness through faith.

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He took your debt. There's an exchange. And it's not that you get some of his righteousness.

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Right? If you stand before Christ, in Christ, before the Father, the Father sees you in his

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Son, in union with him. Christ's righteousness is your righteousness. The Father doesn't look at your life of sin and righteousness in terms of how you can have peace with him.

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If you're in his Son, you're united to him by faith. You have his righteousness as a gift.

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Your sin and guilt and shame went on Christ on the cross. And the only way to know that you are in Christ, that you have his righteousness, is through faith in Christ.

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But of course, it has to be Christ, not some other object or imagination.

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It's got to be Christ himself. And so, when I sin as a believer, I don't fall in and out of relationship with God, like we're at peace today and not tomorrow.

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I have peace with God forever because of Christ, because of his righteousness.

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He took all my sin and debt on that tree 2 ,000 years ago, not just for my sins today and yesterday, but all my sins.

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And so, as a believer, now in Christ, I have a life of sanctification where God is growing me and he's molding me and I'm dealing with personal sins and he's causing me to hate him.

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Ezekiel 36, he causes me to observe his statutes. And so God's not done with me, but I don't fall in and out of relationship with God while God is sanctifying me.

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And the way that I know from on a personal level, I'm not talking about like on a philosophical level, how do you know

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God's word is true? But I would say the way on a very personal level that I know what's up with God and I is the fact that God daily is sanctifying me, causes me to hate my sin, which

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I would have loved before. He causes me to desire him and to pursue holiness. That's the experience

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I have with God. But all of that holiness and that righteousness and all that obedience,

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I don't want any of it before God's throne. None of it. Because all of it before a holy

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God is scubalon. If it's not Christ's righteousness, it will not avail before God.

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So in like the shortest way of explaining, what would you explain is living faith?

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Is it as a sinner, I understand that I sin, I might sin periodically, but in my mind,

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I know what sin is. I can address what my typical sins are and I'm trying to, of course

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I have faith in Christ, you know what I mean? I'm not trying to earn my way, but I'm aware of my sins and I'm trying to shed them.

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And in the best way I can, you know what I mean? And so like I'm just, I'm still, it's such a difficult thing.

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Like I understand the grasp of have faith in Christ and you're saved. I understand.

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You're trusting in him and his own work. But I still,

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I'm having a difficult time understanding what's the point of the commandments then? So, great question.

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And Paul addresses it in the same text in Romans 3 and 4 where he's saying that by the deeds of the law no flesh can be justified in his sight for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.

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It's amazing as he wraps up that whole discussion about how we're all sinners, none of us seek for God, there's no fear of God before our eyes and the law can justify nobody.

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He actually says in that same text he says do we then make void the law through faith? He says may it never be.

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We actually establish the law. Now that we're reconciled to God no longer enemies.

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Now with new hearts. Now we have the ability to obey the law the way that God intended.

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Not to be justified by it but because it, the law is the very character of God.

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Right? It's a reflection of God's own character. So if I'm no longer at war with God, now

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God's commandments aren't burdensome to me. I delight in them. I want to do them, right?

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Also they're God's standards. They don't change. So that's one thing I think you'll see a lot of modern evangelicals professing

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Christians today have a very perverse view of the gospel. Which I think screws things up for the church when we want to witness to Mormons when a

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Mormon has just talked to someone that says they believe in Jesus and they're like you just have to say you believe in Jesus and you're fine.

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It's like, what is that? That's not what the Bible just say you believe in Jesus.

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It's true faith in Christ, right? Repent of your sins and believe in Christ. But so a lot of modern evangelicals this is a weird time in history, bro.

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They'll even say things about the law of God like that contradict what Christians have said for ages.

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In terms of they'll say oh, no we're under the new covenant now. The old testament all our laws. Like it doesn't matter anymore.

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It's like it's the same God. And God says in his law that this is his law.

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These are his standards and it's perfect and holy and true. God said in the old testament it couldn't save you.

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And the law is given to show us our sin and drive us to Jesus. We know that. But now in the new covenant as believers who know

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Jesus who are saved now God's law becomes the desire of our heart. Like for example as a

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Christian today I look around at the injustice in society and what

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I say is society needs God's law. They need God's standards not man's standards.

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Like I believe that not only does God's law apply in my personal life in my family life in my church life

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I think God's law ought to be the standard of our nation. Like I think that instead of and this just gets off to a tangent but I think it's important God's law says that if somebody steals from somebody they have to pay it back double.

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Right? That that's justice. Pay it back and then some. Now we have standards in our society that say if you steal something maybe you don't even ever pay it back.

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Maybe we'd now just put you in jail for five years where now the society around the jail has to have taxes taken from them to pay for your food shelter, medical maybe your sex change.

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Right? And that's because you stole something. God's law says no. You must pay it back double.

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There must be reconciliation. Our society today says if you rape a woman maybe six months in jail.

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That's what happened to my high school sweetheart. She was raped by somebody in her bathroom in her home and the guy got six months in jail.

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God's law says six months. God's law says if you rape somebody and it's demonstrated in independent evidence two to three witnesses it's a death penalty.

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That's how much God shows concern for the woman is that if you violate someone to that degree there is no harmony that can be made except just you lose your life.

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So I believe that God's standards are in light of those sorts of things they're his standards.

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They don't change. And we ought to believe those things. Now if someone said well which parts of the law don't we follow?

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I would say all the ones the New Testament tells you not to. Like when it says no longer a temple no longer priests no longer sacrifices no more dietary restrictions because those were just boundary markers between Jew and Gentile pointing to Christ.

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When the New Testament authors tell you hey that passed away with Christ because it was only pointing to him.

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Now we have the new covenant that's how you know which laws are not abiding. But in terms of God's law it's his law.

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It represents his character. And I would say this God's law Jesus says is the full foundation of or it's founded under love

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God love neighbor. So all of God's law is about loving God loving neighbor. So if someone was to say to me they said well how much of God's law do you think we ought to follow today?

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I would say well do you believe we should love God and love our neighbor? If they were like well yeah definitely that I would say then great.

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You just gave me the entire law of God. Because all of God's law is love God love neighbor. Call me. Let's get together.

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Cool? Alright man. I'll be praying for you. If I was you I think where you need to hang out is

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Romans chapters Yeah I would read Romans chapters one through five.

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And I would not read it to try and finish it. I would read it to respond.

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I would read it and let God talk to you and just respond to God. When you see God saying something about how you can know

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Christ or what he accomplished don't go intellectually oh that's how this works. I would think in light of well that's me.

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Like for example Romans three is this huge indictment on all of us. It's like there's no fear of God.

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They've fallen short. They're enemies. They're hostile. They're helpless. They're sinners.

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It's real tempting to go like when you read that to go who do I know that's like that? Right? Like oh that's really bad for the world but that's me.

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Like I'm the enemy. I'm the helpless one. I'm the sinner. I'm the one with no fear of God. That's how you have to read that.

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Like this is God telling me about me and how the law won't justify me and how Christ did this and how the only way

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I can receive that is not through my obedience and my deeds but through faith and God Paul says in Romans four he justifies the ungodly through faith and that makes no sense.

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That actually sounds kind of wicked that God would as a judge declare someone righteous who is wicked but that's not all he says.

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He doesn't just say God just does that like he just justifies the ungodly. He justifies the ungodly because they're in his son.

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Because he didn't just wink at our sin and turn aside from it. He gave it all to Jesus.

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That's how God justifies the ungodly. He does not as they have suggested justify the righteous.

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He doesn't go to righteous people and say okay now you're justified. It says he justifies the wicked and the only way he can do that is through as a just God giving us a righteousness that is perfect and giving his son what we deserve.

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All of it. Not piecemeal. All of our sin. All of his righteousness as a gift.

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Okay? So Romans 1 -5 man. Alright? You have a good night. Yeah you too man. Great talking to you.