April 23, 2024 Show with Virgil Walker on “A Christian Response to Illegal Immigration”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 23rd day of April, 2024.

Before I announce my guest today, I just have an announcement to make.

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But now I am thrilled to announce a dear friend of mine who is returning to the program.

I just absolutely love interviewing Virgil Walker, and he is no doubt no stranger to—or at least his name is not unfamiliar for certain to most of my

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listening audience. In fact, he's just recently received a promotion at G3 Ministries.

Now he is the vice president of ministry relations at G3 Ministries, in addition to being an author, a highly sought -after conference speaker, and the co -host of the

Just Thinking podcast. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Virgil Walker.

Hey, man, thanks for having me. Glad to be here. It's great to have you back on the program, and we are discussing a very controversial issue, an issue that, like many others, divides the body of Christ, and you—as you do with many other issues within Christianity, you have folks on either ends of the spectrum of an issue that either fall into the error of being kinder and more compassionate than Christ on a certain issue, and then you have others on the far right extreme of that viewpoint who will sometimes allow things to open the door to hate and bigotry, to invade their minds and hearts, and we are hoping to, during our discussion, to lead those listening to a balanced and biblical view, and of course, the

Lord may even correct things in our own minds about this issue today. And in fact,

I'm really the one asking the questions because there are a lot of things, like many issues, that I am not 100 percent certain about, but I am very confident

I'm going to be in agreement, in wholehearted agreement with much of what—or most of what my guest is saying today.

First of all, why don't you let our listeners know, for those tiny percentage in our audience who don't know what

G3 Ministries is, why don't you let them know about that? Yeah, G3 Ministries is a ministry kind of birthed out of Praiseable Baptist Church.

The president and founder of G3 Ministries is Dr. Josh Bice. He's been founder and president for about 13 years now over this incredible organization, which started out as a conference -based ministry.

G and the three standing for—the three Gs, rather, standing for gospel, grace, and glory.

This was a national conference, a theology conference, a pastor's conference, a preaching conference,

I should say. It's really for the entire family, but a preaching conference that's available for folks to participate in.

And so we've watched it grow from its inception in 2013 to in 2023, having over 8 ,300 people join us here in Atlanta for our national conference.

The conference is a biennial conference. And then in the off years, we do smaller regional conferences around the country.

But the ministry has transitioned to a content -producing ministry as well.

And so we produce incredible content for folks to consume online, whether it's our podcast, whether it's our

G3 Plus app where we put all kinds of training and educational resources for laypeople, for pastors, for churchmen, and the like, and just a lot of great information.

We do blog articles. G3 Press produces books, curriculum, homeschool materials, and so just a variety of things that we're providing here at G3 for those who are looking for sound biblical doctrine on a variety of different issues.

Well, if anybody wants more details on G3 Ministries, go to g3men .org, g3men .org.

And I know that you are having a cessationist conference coming up. Why don't you tell us about that? Yeah, we've got a couple.

In fact, May 9th through the 11th, we'll actually be in South Lake, Texas at Countryside Bible Church for the

Reformation Conference. We're doing that in conjunction. You mentioned earlier Dr. Joel Beeky. And so we're doing that in conjunction with Reformation Heritage Books.

And so their bookstore will be there with all the things that they bring to the table. And then we'll be there with the conference side of that house.

So that will happen May 9th through the 11th. And then you mentioned the cessationist conference. That will be happening in Mustang, Oklahoma, just outside of Oklahoma City.

We'll be there at First Baptist Church in Mustang. And, man, we're looking forward to that. Both conferences have incredible speakers, a variety of topics, everything from the foundational ideas surrounding the

Reformation at the first one and then dealing with some of the heretical things that come or have come over the course of time from the prosperity gospel movement and the ideas that we have apostles today and that there's actually men who are faith healers and the like.

And so we'll be dealing with and addressing all of those issues. It won't simply be a polemical conference.

It will also involve really equipping the saints to really deal with what we see in Christian circles as error.

Well, once again, go to g3men .org if you want to register for either or both of those events and find out about other events that are scheduled for the future.

And I certainly look forward to returning to the next G3 National Conference, God willing, as that is such a joy for me.

And I can't even describe in the English language how blessed I always am, manning an exhibitor's booth for Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio at those events and not only the new friends that I make there, but meeting listeners, many

Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio listeners that I've never met before who approach my booth and also rekindling old friendships and getting to interview people on site there at the booth and just all kinds of wonderful things that always occur as a result of being there, not to mention being edified enormously by the speakers.

So I'm looking forward to that. Well, we are discussing an area that I've already mentioned, a

Christian response to illegal immigration, and this does divide the body of Christ and how we are to respond to it.

And I think it might be wise for you to set the stage on how people that you believe are in error in this area, and these would typically be people outside of the true body of Christ.

These would be typically mainline liberals, apostates, those that even though they might not ever say it in these clear and honest words, but these people would be typically the enemies of the

Bible, who would say things like that Joseph and Mary.

Well, why don't you tell us about how those who are on the opposite side of the spectrum of your view on illegal immigration would define or describe

Joseph and Mary, and even to the point of calling Mary very often an unwed mother.

Right, right. This, as you mentioned, this particular subject really divides the body of Christ.

I mean, folks fall on one side or the other of this issue. I think first just kind of walking through, and I'll do this very briefly, when we talk about illegal immigration, what we're talking about here in the

United States is a natural process of emigrating, of coming to the United States. It is a long process.

It is a tenuous process, no doubt about that. But man, we're grateful for those who've navigated the process, sometimes taking years in an effort to become citizens, naturalized citizens of the

United States. And so that's not what we're talking about. We're not talking about those who follow the rules, who've checked all the boxes, who've done the right things in an effort to come into any country, whether it's ours or any other country, from a legal standpoint.

What we're talking about are those who would abuse the system, either through obtaining some temporary status, a work visa, what have you, and overstaying that in an effort to undermine government and have an opportunity to stay in the country or have crossed the border illegally.

What you have when that happens is a divide. Folks say, well, they're people. They're not illegal. No one's an illegal person.

They're not an alien. They should be treated with dignity, humanity, and respect. And I don't disagree with that.

But oftentimes what you hear from those who are perhaps more progressive, perhaps more left -leaning, at least left of center in their view on this, they'll often biblically, they'll often appeal to Joseph and Mary.

And they look at the departure that they had on their way to Egypt.

And they say, well, Jesus was born, and Mary and Joseph fled in an effort to get to Egypt.

And so they were refugees, and so they were illegal immigrants, if you will, to a foreign land, a foreign territory.

And my response to that, and again, I think folks are utilizing or trying to leverage

Scripture in ways that it was never intended. I don't think the story of Joseph and Mary in Egypt had nothing to do with whether or not illegal immigration or being a refugee was biblical or appropriate.

It had everything to do with prophecy. It had to do with validating who the

Christ was on the basis of what Scripture said about Christ. And so what often happens in a lot of progressive thought as it relates to theology and the narrative of the text of Scripture, folks will begin to utilize the ideas there.

And my argument with regard to Joseph and Mary being refugees, they were not, definitely not in the modern sense of the word.

The idea that them leaving where they were, Bethlehem, and heading out to Egypt, first of all, during that time frame, all of that area, whether it was the area where they came from, whether it was portions of where Jews inhabited as well as Egypt at the time, was all a part of the

Roman Empire. So it would have been the equivalent of moving from Texas to Florida, right, and navigating that space and deciding they were in a different area.

All of it governed by the same federal oversight, if you will. Again, as you delve into some of these analogies, they definitely break down, but it's the same concept as there.

They weren't refugees from a foreign power to a different foreign power. It was all under the umbrella of one government.

Furthermore, refugees, usually when they depart from one place to another, coming, let's say, from some part of Mexico or some

South American country to the United States, they never return. And the reason for that is because they've left on the basis of the fact that they were in harm's way, that the government intends them harm, and their process is one of staying in that location permanently, and that was not the case in the instance with Jesus.

Now, one of the issues that brings serious problems into not only the discussion, but the way things physically and in reality are happening because of lax views on illegal immigration, is that people who are claiming to be champions of compassion and kindness, they very often are far out of harm's way themselves.

They don't live in the areas and raise their children in the areas where illegal immigrants are streaming across their own backyard.

And, you know, this kind of thing was made very clear when you had different government officials shipping illegal immigrants to these sanctuary cities where those involved not only in government positions of authority, but those who voted them in, made the big boast of immigrants, legal or otherwise, are welcome here with open arms.

And then when they came streaming in there, they were on the next flight out of town.

So you have a lot of hypocrisy, and you have a lot of people being not only harmed in many ways as far as theft and destruction of property, but even the murder of loved ones.

So when people claim to be champions of compassion and kindness and tenderness, they better put their money where their mouth is and be willing to bear some of the danger that they are in fact creating.

Am I making a big deal out of this? You want to respond to that,

Virgil? Virgil, are you there? For some reason,

Virgil is not with us. I don't know what happened. Well, you know, we are going to go to our first break here, because Virgil has been booted off somehow.

So please be patient with us, folks, as we try to rectify the situation. Don't go away.

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We apologize for the technical malfunction there where one of us got kicked off the live stream, but we are now back.

And I don't know how much you heard before we disconnected Virgil, but I was saying that there are many people who are, as the saying goes, very generous with other people's money.

They're very brave with other people's safety, not their own.

They act like they're champions of compassion, tenderness, and kindness, but it really physically and in reality doesn't have any effect upon themselves.

So if you want to pick up where I left off there. Yeah, that's really true.

I mean, when you think about kind of what's happened as it relates to this issue, it was in 2021 there were a number of immigrants, illegal immigrants, that were taken from the state of Texas right at the borders.

They came in, put on airplane planes and sent to Martha's Vineyard. I think it was 41 or 44 illegal immigrants who were dropped off in Martha's Vineyard.

And those very kind, generous, left -leaning ideologues who lived there quickly found themselves, you know, getting all those folks wrapped up and out of Martha's Vineyard relatively quickly.

That very night, I think. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Unfortunately, I guess the lesson was lost on many of the sanctuary cities, or at least those that claim to be sanctuary cities, as they opened the door, opened the floodgates, if you will, to having illegal immigrants come and engage their citizenry there in their cities.

And to the point that you made earlier, I think many of these places and spaces that are doing this are willing to be beneficent, benevolent on behalf of their citizenry.

But when havoc is wrecked upon the lives of those citizens, they have a different response.

And so when you look at sanctuary cities, for example, the top ten are San Francisco, Los Angeles, New York.

You're not surprised there, right? Chicago, Seattle, Portland, Denver, Boston, Philadelphia, and Washington, D .C.

All of those are places that really cannot afford a massive influx of illegal immigrants into their cities.

And those who have opened their arms to that kind of an influx have been overwhelmed.

And now what's happened, while, for example, the mayor of New York was openly saying in 2021 and 22 that he was in favor of illegal immigration, in fact, had tweeted out a welcome, if you will.

He said this, it was Mayor Eric Adams. He said this, he said, quote, we should protect our immigrants, end quote, period.

Yes, New York City will remain a sanctuary city under an Abrams administration or under an

Adams rather, Adams administration. This was in this this tweet was was sent out

October 20th of 21. Again, at the time when it's popular nearing an election cycle for all of these politicians to signal that they are in favor of some of the most left leaning policies.

Of course, here we are in 2024 and the city cannot withstand another onslaught of illegal immigrants.

I generally think that the governor of the state of Texas was wise in that he packed up a number of those immigrants, placed them on buses and sent them to the places that were were opening their arms to welcome them in.

I think New York and Chicago in particular learned their lessons quickly as it relates to just being absolutely overwhelmed.

City and state resources were overwhelmed. Most of these mayors thought it would be beneficial because they saw some both political benefit as well as to a degree, a financial benefit as the federal government stepped in, particularly this

Biden administration and sent millions of dollars to states in an effort to help them manage the crushing number of illegal immigrants that came.

But what they found out quickly was that those those dollars never went as far as they thought they would.

And furthermore, the illegal immigrants who came weren't grateful. They were demanding, for example, in the state of New York, there was a kind of a cash opportunity for illegals.

They were given on on debit cards, a certain amount of cash, up to ten thousand dollars per per per household.

They've they've they've gone through that. And now there there was even this past week, there were a number of them that were at the at the state's capital complaining that at the city capital, rather complaining that they needed additional funds and resources.

And so they weren't grateful. They weren't thankful. They weren't. It was it was the idea that now that they had been given some, they needed to be given even more for their own well -being.

So these are the kinds of things that backfire against these politicians who are who are kind and generous when it comes to the money of others.

But the reality is when when when push comes to shove, they begin quickly to recognize that there's no and that there's no benefit in them.

They quickly change their tune. Eric Adams has done that as well as the mayor of of the of the city of Chicago.

Yes, it's it's quite fascinating how hospitable people can be with other people's property.

Most of those who are the strongest, most vociferous advocates of the illegal immigration live in very safe, protected, gated communities.

They're called gated communities for a reason. And they're surrounded by the high walls that they mock conservative politicians for wanting to erect on the border.

They don't seem to think that it's ridiculous or cruel or mean or bigoted to have a wall around their property.

Right. But people have to really evaluate when they start to condemn, even if you want to say from a so -called

Christian perspective, this is not the way Jesus would act. This is not the way the disciples would act. How dare you behave this way?

Well, these people have to really do some self -evaluation if they are being inconvenienced or endangered in any real way by this boastful speech.

I mean, it's like, you know, just because you think you're being hospitable doesn't mean it's a good thing.

When lives are being threatened and even taken, there have been people murdered because of this.

And it's just as irresponsible as if a married man with children in his home were to, without any kind of examination of a stranger's life and motivations, just let people into their home that come knocking at the door and let them stay in their home when they might be putting their own children's lives at risk.

Am I making a proper analogy there? No, you absolutely are. When you consider the fact that, for example,

I'm here in the state of Georgia. There's a young lady named Lakin Riley. She was a college student who was killed by a migrant, illegal immigrant.

And what was catastrophic about that was that this immigrant had multiple violent charges and had been put in jail, but because of the legal system and its cavalier attitude toward illegal immigration, was left in place in space and able to enact harm even for young Lakin to the point of death.

That was a national story. One of the things that has drawn national attention in more recent days is the violence that's being perpetrated upon folks who rent their homes.

The squatters. While this began in New York, as the stories often come from big cities like New York, where squatters, those who are illegal, enter a home or space.

They get there. They have, I guess, enough money and resources to actually change the locks on the doors.

They're that they're that, you know, ingenious as far as as far as figuring out what they need to do to protect themselves.

They change the locks on the doors and dare the homeowners, those who are renting those properties, to kick them out.

And they're having to reevaluate the laws for squatters rights there in New York. But at the same time, it's not just it's not just New Yorkers.

They're actually doing that here in the state of Georgia, the same kinds of situations. We have a massive problem, very similar to here in the metro

Atlanta area. And only recently has government responded.

But even if even if you if the laws are changed, it is still a process of time, a length of time before.

If someone, a legal immigrant or otherwise squats your home, that you're able to do anything about it.

And that legal process may take weeks, may take months before they're removed. And so these liberal policies that have been pushed forward by liberal politicians and the leftists who love them have not been to the benefit of the citizenry.

And at the end of the day, from a Christian perspective, we know that government is instituted by God.

And the purpose is to protect its citizenry from evil. That is the primary role and responsibility of government.

They serve they serve an almighty God and God has placed them in a position of authority to wield the sword in an effort to protect us from evil.

And when that's not happening in government is actually the one that's embracing the evil. We just have we have some real problems to consider.

And don't you think that those of us on the right side of things have to be careful?

We have to be careful. And I'm not saying that we should have less stringent laws about illegal immigration.

I'm not saying that at all. But at the same time, we have to be careful that we are not broad brushing every person that is coming into this country, even if they're coming in illegally.

Not everyone is a criminal. Not everyone is a murderer. And it is really the greatest level of fault lies at the feet of these leftist politicians, including our president, who welcomed initially at least these illegal aliens to come on in.

And even now are behaving in somewhat of a schizophrenic behavior, schizophrenic manner, where, on the one hand, they're saying that they want the borders to be more controlled.

But when they capture these people, arrest them, they just set them free. So, you know, there are no doubt some people who are fleeing perhaps persecution in their homeland.

They are fleeing poverty. They don't want their children's lives to be misery filled with misery.

And on and on I could go. So we who are critiquing this whole subject, this whole invasion that's occurring on our soil, we have to be careful not to just just as we don't want people to broad brush us with others.

We don't want people to accuse us of every nutty and hateful thing that everybody has done in history in the name of Christianity.

We don't we have to be careful that we don't bear false witness, even against those that are coming here illegally.

Don't we have to do that? Yeah, no, I think I think you're absolutely right. As it as it relates to this, it's very easy to have a knee jerk reaction and the opposite direction.

When you when you have a young lady, like I mentioned, Lake and Riley, who was who's killed, who's murdered.

It's very easy to have a knee jerk reaction to that and broad brush a group of people.

And, you know, easy for us to do that at the same time. It's easy given the nature of this. And you meant you called it an invasion.

And I would argue it's not it's nothing less than that. When you when you look at the course of the past, you know, three years in office for the

Biden administration, we have an unprecedented six point three million illegal immigrants who have crossed the border that we that we know about.

Those are those that we know about that that entered the country. And that I once I thought, what how can we wrap our mind around that?

That kind of a number. So I went and looked at the population of the some of the states in our nation and six point three million people represent the combined populations of Wyoming, Vermont, the

District of Columbia, Alaska, North Dakota, South Dakota, Delaware and Montana.

So if you removed the American population and the states that I just mentioned, you could fill those all.

You could you could go one for one with the population of illegal immigrants who've crossed the border that we're aware about.

And and and feel and feel those those spots. That is that is an overwhelming number of people.

For example, during the same period of time under the under the administration of Trump, you had one point three one point five million people rather that that crossed the border.

So, again, we're talking about one point five under Trump, six point three million under Biden.

And he's still got a whole nother year to to go before he's done.

That's a lot of people to consider. So given that tenor, given that kind of a setup, it's very easy for people to have knee jerk reactions and responses in a negative way.

But I think it's incumbent upon us as believers to see the issue for what it is and not to categorize a certain ethnic group in a certain way simply because we have bad actors.

And isn't it interesting that most of these countries of origin of the people flooding our borders, they those countries themselves have a lot stricter immigration policies, including

Mexico. Absolutely. Absolutely. When you when you consider the fact that it'd be tough, it'd be tough for an

American to quote unquote sneak across the border, much less stay there without without proper identification, without proper resources to to to make it there.

All those things have to be in place. And in fact, many of the countries in the in South America is much more difficult to enter their countries than it is for for for for them to enter ours.

Right. And let's see here. We have.

Julia in Brentwood, Long Island, New York, who has a question and Julia asks.

How do you respond to those who say that Christians should keep their noses out of the political issues and just view these illegal immigrants as more opportunities for evangelism?

Well, I think I think that's a great question. I think there are there are Christians who who say that and who believe that.

I would just argue that we've been left as believers. We've been been left in the world in an effort to have a have a have an impact.

And that impact isn't simply at our church, believing what we believe and being quiet about it as as we as we leave the church building, that we have a responsibility to enter the public square and to live out our lives in ways that reflect the goodness and grace of God.

And we are fortunate in that in the United States of America, we live in a country that where we have freedom of speech, where we have the right to vote, where we have a responsibility to be good citizens and good citizens don't keep quiet when they see bad things happening in the places that they live.

And so I think while on the one hand, I think you're I think the the idea that we need to preach the gospel is absolutely correct and right.

But the idea that one has to be done apart from the other, meaning we can't say anything about what we see,

I don't I don't find that in the text of scripture anywhere. I think we have a very real responsibility, given the kind of government we've we've been provided in the

United States to say what we mean to mean what we say and to stand on biblical principle as we do so.

Thank you, Julia. We have prudence in Toronto, Canada, and prudence says,

Don't you think that we who are on the right far too often fail to admit that many on the right want these illegal immigrants so that they can have cheap labor, not only in their businesses, but in their own homes?

No, I think I think that's a great I think that's a great thing to to to think through.

I would I would argue that both right and left have politicized this issue to their advantage.

Right. You know, illegal immigrants actually help the right.

Right. I mean, it helps. It especially helps during a during an election cycle. It helps galvanize the troops, if you will.

They can then act like the big bad wolf against this onslaught and benefit from a standpoint of of of elections, because now people who might have just stayed at home are going to come out because they don't want to quote unquote be invaded.

And so there's there's political advantage on both the right and the left as it relates to this.

And my argument is that neither one of those extreme positions really value the people caught in between the caught it caught in this mess, caught in the process.

I say that in light of the fact that when you have this many illegal immigrants crossing the border, there's all kinds of issues related to how they get to our country.

Some of them die on the way. We talk about, you know, children who are are put with other adults who are not there, who are not who are not related to them.

We talk about about sex trafficking that takes place as a result of of this kind of the drug cartel heavily involved in the illegal immigration of people using them as mules to bring in narcotics by the tons.

There's all kinds of issues related to this and that that that need to be addressed, which which, again, takes me back,

Chris, to what was said earlier. When you think about the evil that's taking place, how people are being taken advantage of, how much more do we have a responsibility to say something about it when we know these kinds of wicked things are taking place?

Yes, it used to be most often attributed to Edmund Burke. But there appears to be a question that he ever really said or wrote this, but it's still a great quote.

Nonetheless, the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

And that is very applicable to what occurred in Germany when

Hitler and the Nazis rose to power, the so -called

Christians in Germany. And I'm speaking speaking basically of the mainline churches, which were predominantly

Lutheran and Roman Catholic. Most of them did nothing. I don't think that most of them were ardent, vociferous cheerleaders for Hitler and the

Nazis. But they they they not only predominantly remained silent, but even gave it a biblical justification because of a twisting of scripture about being obedient to those in authority.

You want to say anything about that? Yeah, I mean, that's that's always the case. Right. The appeal when we do see wickedness, when we do see evil, the appeal to the

Christian in an effort to keep them silent is to say, well, you know, you Christians shouldn't say anything.

You don't want to you don't want to you don't want to say too much. You know, touch not mine anointed. I mean, there's all kinds of there are all kinds of issues that are raised as a result to silence

Christians on issues where they should be absolutely speaking out. I think that's

I think that's the right thing to do. You know, this week I was thinking about the the the issue of Mark.

Who was it? Oh, gosh. He was at a church where he was speaking out against a guy who was on a poll at the church.

Oh, yeah. Right. I know. I know what you're talking about. Oh, yeah. Mark Driscoll.

Right. Right. Mark Driscoll. And, you know, folks were upset with him about saying something.

And, of course, in typical Driscoll fashion, he actually capitulates on the issue later on. But at the at the end of the day,

I think we have a responsibility to say something. And the retort to him as to why he shouldn't have said anything was that was the whole touch not mine anointed argument.

We see that often time and time again in an effort to silence Christians and keep them docile.

Well, we have to go to our midway break right now. And if you'd like to join the others that have submitted questions and you want to ask one of your own, send it to Chris Arnzen at Gmail dot com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at Gmail dot com. Give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you have illegal aliens in your own employ or something like that, or you just disagree radically with your own pastors or church on this.

You might even be the pastor yourself who disagrees with his fellow elders on some things we're discussing.

Whatever the issue is that would compel you to remain anonymous, we will grant your request. But please, if it's a general question, give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence.

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That's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. And Virgil, I want to make sure that you highlight some of the most important things in a

Christian response to illegal immigration before we get too far afield with listener questions.

I want you to highlight first what you think are the essential things. Yeah, I think, first of all, really we need to think biblically about the subject of anthropology.

And the big fancy word just means the study of man. Who is man? What is mankind?

And how we treat one another is important. So rather than thinking of people in terms of solely ethnicity and ethnic breakdowns and then deciding whether they are friend or foe on that basis,

I think we have to go back to the biblical idea that all of us are image bearers of God. And as a result, we deserve distinct value, dignity, and worth.

And so I think it starts there and recognizing the humanity in us all and that for the most part, all of us want better lives for our children than ourselves.

I mean, there's always the exception to that rule, but for the most part, we want better lives for ourselves. And so there are those who see where they are and understand that they would be better off by pursuing a course of action that takes them out of their location and to a new one.

That's something that you can understand and respect about someone who would try to travel across the border.

That doesn't make what they do any less legal or any more illegal.

It's an issue that needs to be addressed from a standpoint of the fact that biblically speaking, we've been given borders, that in fact we see that in Acts 17, verse 16, where the

Scripture says that He who is God made of every nation of mankind to inhabit the face of the earth.

And He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation.

And so the idea that God is against borders or that we need to not have borders, that's not borne out as it relates to Scripture.

In fact, we have in Genesis 11, we have the Tower of Babel and the separation and division of ethnic groups, if you will.

The great dysphoria, diaspora rather, where mankind was moved across the face of the earth.

And that God set their boundaries, their times, where they would live. And then He placed and gave us government.

We see that in Romans 13 where God is the one who gives government for the purpose of managing and maintaining

His sovereign rule, the idea of peace, those who would thwart evil.

The government is given the sword for the purpose of thwarting evil. And so when you look at those conditions,

God is not a God of no borders or of a borderless world. No, we have borders for a reason.

The fact that God is sovereign and that He's established governments. And as a result, there is a legal way in which to enter a sovereign nation.

There is national sovereignty as a result of borders and governments.

And so we have to respect those. We also need to treat people like human beings who are created in the image of God.

And so when we combine all of these things, I think we can adequately and effectively be for sovereign borders, for walls that divide, for places that are kept safe from invasion.

And we can also honor, respect, and love people who don't look like us and with the hope that they would operate from a standpoint of legal immigration rather than illegal immigration.

Well, perhaps you could clarify something that you said before people misunderstand what you said.

Sure, sure. First of all, let me let our listeners know that my guest is black. And I hate to find that necessary to mention sometimes, unless they think that there's some kind of racist agenda behind something that was said.

And, of course, black people can be racist, too. And I know that Virgil knows that to be a fact. Racism is a sin problem, not a skin problem.

But the fact that God had dispersed people of all national and ethnic groups across the globe, that has been used, as you probably well know, as a motto of white, true white races, white bigots.

And, of course, I hate the word racist, too, because there are no races. We're all one race, the human race.

But it actually reminds me of one of the most hilarious scenes of All in the

Family when Archie Bunker is sitting in his living room with Sammy Davis Jr. And Archie was saying that,

Don't you think people do better when they just stick with their own kind? And that's why God put all of you folks in countries across the world, in Africa, and he kept us white people in the white countries, he said.

And Sammy Davis Jr. responds, Well, somebody must have told you where we were because you came and got us.

But you were not saying as many. And it's a tragedy that these people actually exist in the 21st century.

But kinists and others who are heretics, they are false Christians who are true bigots, true white supremacists who think that, yeah,

God put them there, and that's where they have to stay forever. If you could comment on that. I just don't want people to get the wrong idea.

No, absolutely. The whole reason for God removing people is because in Genesis 11, as we see it, it was because they had come together in an effort to overtake

God, God's rule, God's authority. The establishment was that God is indeed sovereign and that man is not.

This is not the indication that we should not love our brother, not love our neighbor, because they're part of a different ethnic makeup.

In fact, that's the beauty of God's diversity that we see meted out, if you will, across the globe.

But no, there's no mandate by God that we don't interact with each other.

Even within sovereign borders, there are people of multiple ethnic groups here in the

United States. That's the case, definitely. That's the case in parts of Mexico and even around the world.

The Jews, they're not all of one level of melanin. We have a variety of those, and we all interact.

Again, with the Archie Bunker joke, I thought that his day and time is so long gone.

We unfortunately can't joke like that anymore, given our current cultural context, even though the jokes are absolutely funny.

But when it comes to us being with our own kind, I would say yes and amen. We are with our own kind.

Our own kind is the humankind, and that's how that works. Amen. Well, we have a listener,

Miguel in Barnstead or Barnsteed. I'm not sure how they pronounce it in New Hampshire. But Miguel says—let's see here.

I've got to scroll up here. Oh, my—there it goes.

My computer was frozen for a second. He has a two -part question. I'll read them separately.

Would you say that most of this attitude—and I'm assuming he is speaking of the leftist attitude towards illegal immigration or even that leftist sentiment coming from professing

Christians— would you say that most of this attitude stems from the social gospel movement of the mid to late 19th century and from which the

Salvation Army was born? Yeah, I would.

I would say it this way. When you think about the early 1900s with men like Walter Rauschenbusch and the social gospel, he saw massive immigration, and Rauschenbusch and others thought that the gospel mandated that we do something.

And so you hear the mantra, we've got to do something. I don't disagree that the gospel moves us to act.

But that when you attach the gospel to action, saying that the gospel is not the gospel unless we attach to it some form of works -based righteousness in the form of taking care of those who are less fortunate, it's no longer the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

You've created a different gospel. But to answer the question directly, we have that kind of an idea going all the way back to that time frame here in America.

I doubt that most people today even know who Walter Rauschenbusch was, yet his ideas have definitely taken hold in our country.

He was a heavily influenced Martin Luther King, in fact, and the civil rights movement as well.

I didn't know who he was until I heard you and Darrell Bernard Harrison bring him up at a conference.

I believe it was a conference in Manhattan that you guys were speaking at. Yeah, so again, his ideas continue on to this day in different iterations, and I'd argue that much of what he taught and thought is on steroids if you compare what he did and the influence he had to the current modern -day social justice movement.

Well, Miguel's second question is, what would be the solution? Does this issue go beyond the statement on social justice and the gospel?

Yeah, I think so. I think as we witness what's happening in America to the degree that six million -plus people have, that we're aware of over the course of the last three years, have crossed the border into our nation, it won't take long for us not to recognize the very culture that is

American. Really, I mean, overnight, it'll be a different nation altogether.

We have a responsibility and a role that begins with government.

It begins with because government is the government's role and responsibility to protect the borders, and so we have to hold government accountable.

It's electing the right people, but in fact holding them to account to do what it is they claim they're going to do.

We witnessed what's taken place there in the state of Texas with Governor Abbott, who has now had to step up and defy the federal government in an effort to protect the border of Texas as they're feeling the brunt of illegal immigration.

And so it requires great courage. Those who hold political office and who hold the reins of power have got to be willing to stand up in the face of being called a racist, a xenophobe, and whatever else by those who are on the left.

Well, thank you, Miguel. And by the way, since you brought up the statement on social justice, which was drafted by Josh Bice of the

Praise Meal Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia, and G3 Ministries, Josh Bice is my guest tomorrow,

Miguel, so I hope you tune in. And we are going to be addressing why modern prophecy is false and God's word is inerrant and sufficient.

So I hope that you tune in tomorrow, Miguel, and perhaps send in a question to Pastor Josh Bice.

We would be definitely doing an injustice to our audience if we didn't bring up an important factor in the hypocrisy of many on the left in regard to this whole area of illegal immigration.

The left always claim to be the champions of looking out for what is allegedly the best for blacks and other minority groups in the

United States. And yet this haphazard and even beyond haphazard, the intentional flooding of our country with illegal immigrants likely just to create a larger voting block for the left.

This is doing above all citizens in the United States the greatest harm to black and Hispanic and other minority groups, is it not?

And if you could explain that. It really is. In fact, if you look at the city of Chicago, that is absolutely being overrun by illegal immigrants.

They're getting all of the housing that's available. They're accessing large hotels that are available.

They're being given government funding and resources in an effort to stay in the city to the degree that many of the residents in Chicago, primarily a predominant black area, have stood up and said, no, no more.

The resources that are being given to those who are foreign born, who are in this country illegally, those resources are the resources given to the government by the taxpaying citizenry that are there in the city.

And as a result, what took place, in fact, not very long ago, there was a big march on the city council there in Chicago.

Mayor Brandon Johnson and the city council stepped in and tried to keep residents from having the idea of a sanctuary city overturned.

The residents are done with it. They are sick and tired of it and want things to stop and come to an end.

Again, it's not just government handing out checks.

It's what's happening in hospitals, where hospitals are being overrun by those who are coming in illegally, who have all kinds of illnesses and sicknesses, and those who are residents of that city are not able to obtain access.

It's happening in the public school systems, where illegals are invading public school systems.

And again, all of the resources that are there are necessary to teach kids who don't have

English as a first language. The resources are being utilized in those ways and spaces. And so, again, you have constrained government resources being given to those who are not from those cities.

And as a result, what's happening is as the next election cycle begins to loom, those residents,

Black, Hispanic and otherwise, are looking for alternatives in the way of electing government officials.

I believe, it's my contention, that this election cycle, beginning with the

President of the United States, will see the largest shift, particularly in the Black community, the largest shift from Democrat, which we've historically voted 90 some odd percent, 80 to 90 percent for Democrats, and really 3 to 6 percent of us have voted for Republicans, and then the rest remain independent.

What you're going to end up seeing is a political shift in the double digits to the Republican Party.

Early polls suggest that anywhere from 7 to 20 percent of Blacks are leaning toward reelecting

Donald Trump. And if that's the case and it moves in that direction, this will be the largest shift from one political party to the other since the 1960s.

Now, I think we also should make it clear that we are not viewing

Donald Trump or the Republican Party as some kind of messiahs to cure the ills of our nation or the world, for that matter.

Don't we have to be careful that even though we believe that there would be a very positive direction in this nation, likely, with great numeric victories of conservative

Republicans, Republicans have been a part of the problem, too. They just don't seem to be as severe and extreme a problem.

Am I stating that accurately? No, I would agree. They identify, unfortunately, a lot of those who hold political office currently and who stand with the

Republican Party, they only – for the most part, they're quiet and they're operating in the same way that their

Democratic colleagues are in that. They've abandoned any kind of restriction as it pertains to spending.

They have no problem spending, just like Democrats. They have no problem advocating policies, especially when it benefits their own personal – either their personal lives or even a minority of a constituency because they have some political clout.

Maybe a friend or a neighbor or someone like that can provide a check for them for the next election cycle.

There's all kinds of crony capitalism that takes place in the Republican Party, and they only shout loud or loudly when a particular issue like, for example, immigration seems to benefit them because public sentiment has absolutely had enough.

Very few of them live where the rubber meets the road. Most of them are living lives disconnected from the status quo, disconnected from the average

Joe that they represent. And so for the most part, they even fought

Trump and some of his policies for his term in office. I just think at the same time,

I think what you're seeing is more and more people are beholden to Republicanism, this populism that Trump represents, because they actually feel like for the first time they're being heard.

It's the Democrats who now are being seen as the elites, as those with wealth and education who are disconnected from the rest of mainstream society.

So it's just going to be an interesting cycle to watch all of these issues unfold and how the parties shape and reshape themselves in the days to come.

Yes. When I think of Donald Trump, and there are a lot of people who think that we who are

Christians who support him politically, they think that we're all—now,

I know that some of us are, but they think that we're all stupid enough to believe that he is a bona fide, regenerate, born -again believer in Christ.

He's made it very clear by making such statements as he couldn't think of one thing to ask

God for forgiveness. And he's been in ads recently promoting a specific edition of the

Bible with the Constitution attached in it. And he said the Bible is his favorite book and he has many

Bibles. And the things he says, you would wonder, has he ever really read a page of it?

But at the same time, like Martin Luther once said—and I'm not talking about Martin Luther King Jr .—Martin

Luther, the reformer, said, I would rather be ruled by a just Turk than an unjust

Christian. And although Donald Trump is not a Turk, I'm just using that as an analogy, because even though he is not, in my estimate, yet anyway, a regenerate brother in Christ, I think that the policies that he stands for far support true justice and true compassion over and above the leftist, authoritarian policies.

The authoritarian governments that are being established by Biden and his minions.

I mean, that's the best way I think I can explain it. I don't know if you have anything else you want to say. No, I have a tendency to agree with you when you have a party, the

Democratic Party, who's advocating for the mutilation of prepubescent girls and boys for the purpose of advancing this notion of gender fluidity and calling it gender affirming care.

When you have a government that has made a decision that they are going to segregate and separate culture on the basis of ethnicity, on the basis of things that we can identify on an outward basis, but when we look at who human beings actually are as image bearers of God that we have more in common than we do from a standpoint of difference.

When they leverage that for their own political benefit and purpose, I think that's absolute evil.

When they advocate for the – as a religion, they advocate for the killing of innocent human life in the womb and as a natural human right, we've got a real problem.

Now, again, to the point you made earlier, I don't think Donald Trump is a saint by any stretch of the imagination.

And I do believe that even some of the ground that he has capitulated on as it relates to the issue of abortion is something we need to hold him accountable for and to.

The policies that he's enacted have benefited the vast majority of Americans regardless of their background in the years that he was in office.

Yes. Well, we're going to our final break right now, and if you do have a question, make sure you send it in fairly quickly because we're rapidly running out of time.

Our email address again is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Don't go away.

We're going to be right back with Virgil Warner. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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Here's Joe Reilly, a listener in Ireland, who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland.

Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, are largely to thank, since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.

Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

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For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com.

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

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That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

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Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

In the film Chariots of Fire, Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

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That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's Word, and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

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Now shipping worldwide. Welcome back. I also want to remind our listeners that this show is made possible partially due to the generosity of the law firm of Buttafuoco &

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Please make sure you mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We're now back with Virgil Walker, and we are discussing a

Christian response to illegal immigration, and we have Barrister in Vestavia Hills, Alabama.

And Barrister says, I understand that most on the G3 staff are in disagreement with Christian nationalism, but it seems that nothing you are saying today would be out of step with those who attribute their beliefs to the

Christian nationalism, at least those who are sane. I was wondering if you could explain. Well, yeah, here's the thing about, you know, the issue of Christian nationalism and the like.

I think there are a lot of things that, given where I've been a

Christian for, gosh, some 40 years, and we're coming up on 40 years, and the views that I hold,

I've held because of how Scripture has informed my theology and the way that I view the world.

So I don't necessarily need a label that has really advanced its cause over the course of the last year, year and a half, to identify with a group.

The group I identify with are those who are Christian. I don't have to go and redefine nationalism or paint a different brushstroke on something or an idea that men are trying to put together.

I simply go back out to do what I've been doing long before Stephen Wolf's book about the issue came out, which is to open my

Bible, read it, to believe it, and to walk it out in the public square. So I don't feel the need to adopt some newfound idea or identity.

Those often, I find when people attach themselves to those things, those often end with very bad results, mainly because people are looking to build a platform on a particular idea.

And I'm not against building platforms. I have one. Whether you consider G3 a platform or Just Thinking a platform or the books that I write a platform,

I'm not against building a platform. I just simply don't want to do so, some new idea at the cost of negating what

I'm already doing, which is living out a faithful Christian life. And, of course, Christian nationalism is not a monolithic movement.

It's a very divided movement under the umbrella of that term. And, I mean, even it was kind of humorous when during a panel discussion at the last national

G3 conference, our mutual dear friend Owen Strand assumed James White was a

Christian nationalist. And during that panel discussion, he said, well, I'm basically not even sure yet what exactly that means because of the fact there's so many voices.

And he made it clear that he is actually vehemently opposed to much of that which is contained in Stephen Wolfe's book.

Sure. And, again, we've written articles about it here. I won't redress all of the things that we've written about it here.

And at the same time, I don't hold any animus toward Stephen Wolfe or anybody that's in his camp.

My issue are with ideas. And I try to raise those to the best of my ability apart from personality.

And, you know, I'm hopeful to do so. Sometimes I'm successful at doing that. Sometimes I'm not so successful at doing that.

Amen. Well, thank you, Barrister. And keep listening to Iron Trump and Zion Radio in Vestavia Hills, Alabama.

And we look forward to hearing from you in the future with more questions. Well, I do want to make sure that you have an opportunity to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today in regard to this topic.

Before I go to any more listener questions, because I want to make sure again that what you have intended by speaking on this subject is at least as much of it as possible is made clear to our audience within the confines of this program.

No, absolutely. I appreciate the opportunity. It's a topic that I think is important for us to think through and think about biblically.

And I think there's a way forward that makes sense. This will be a hot topic over the course of the next 12 months, at least, as politicians on both sides of the aisle look to take advantage of public sentiment, be it negative or positive.

They will try to position themselves in ways that makes the most sense for them, politically speaking.

I think we need to be thinking about this from a biblical perspective and operate in the way that reflects that, both in how we treat others.

The fact that we are all image bearers of God and are deserving of distinct value, dignity and worth. But at the same time that we are a land of laws and that those laws need to be respected, that there are boundaries that have been given to us both by God and then instituted to be protected by government.

And no name calling of racist or racism should negate our stance that immigration should be legal if it is at all attempted and that we reject illegal immigration.

And so those are the things that I think are most important. I think we can think about these things in a biblical way, in an honest way, in a direct way that doesn't convolute the issue and doesn't leave more believers, especially young believers, in confusion.

All right, we have time for at least one more question, maybe more. We have Augustus in Denton, Texas, and I actually visited

Denton, Texas several years ago. Were you there with Darrell? Was Darrell alone?

No, he was he was solo. I was actually at that time when that conference went on in Denton Bible.

I was I was moving from Omaha to Douglasville for this opportunity to enroll that I'm in here at G3.

Well, Augustus asks, do you think it is the Christian duty of a law abiding citizen to report whenever they believe illegal immigrants are in their area working for companies?

Yeah, yeah, that's a that's a great question. And, you know, I think if you know that and you're aware of that and you can definitively say that, you know, you have a responsibility to to care for, you know, your your neighbors, your loved ones and the like.

And you do so with with great humility and honesty and care.

I think that's wise. I would if I were in that situation, primarily from a standpoint of protection.

You have people there illegally, and I know statistics suggest that many who do who do live illegally in a particular space and place that they are that most of them operate from a from a honest perspective or are law abiding because they don't want to be found out.

I understand that. But in the instance of what we saw here in the state of Georgia with Lake and Riley, who was killed, it would have been wonderful for someone to have actually stood up and done the right thing and made mention of the fact that there was someone illegal here and that they that they intended harm.

I think that's wise. Now, don't you think we have to be very cautious, though, if it's just some kind of a suspicion?

We have to, again, I think you're right. I started out by saying we've got to be crystal clear.

This is not a this is not a hey, I see some people who who who happen to speak

Spanish, and I think they're illegals and so I'm going to make a call. I think I think that's that's that's that's illegitimate.

But if you're aware and, you know, and you're aware of the situation, this is not a guess on your part.

I think you have a responsibility to do the right thing. And one of the reasons that even popped into my head is that when

I owned a home years ago on Long Island and Suffolk County, Long Island, where there are a lot of illegal aliens and some of them have proven to be very dangerous members of violent gangs who have murdered people out on Long Island, especially in Suffolk County, where I am originally from.

When I had a home and I had a landscape architect redo the entire property,

I suspected that nearly every single one of his workers was an illegal alien.

And not one of them spoke English, but I didn't go running to the police or or challenging the man in charge of the work on my and all of those workers that he had, at least as much as I could understand, because they didn't speak

English. Well, I do want to remind our listeners about the two upcoming

G3 Ministries events. Why don't you repeat that information, Virgil? So our listeners.

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. The first one will be May 9th through the 11th.

They're in wonderful South Lake, Texas. They're at Countryside Bible.

The Reformation Conference. We'll be hosting that there with them in partnership with our dear friends at Reformation Heritage Books.

And Joe Beeky and his team, they'll be there with us alongside us May 9th through the 11th.

And then the Cessationist Conference, October 3rd through the 5th. They're in Mustang, Oklahoma, right outside of Oklahoma City.

My old stomping grounds. And so I'm looking forward to kind of going back. It'll be a little bit of a homecoming for me. Going back home, seeing some folks, and even seeing some folks who

I was a part of a continuationist church there in Oklahoma.

But the Cessationist Conference, October 3rd through the 5th, it'll be there in Oklahoma. You can go to g3men .org

and get your tickets for either one of those events. And don't forget, my guest tomorrow on Iron Trip and Zion Radio will be

Pastor Josh Bice of Praise Mill Baptist Church in Douglasville, Georgia. And also president, founder and president of G3 Ministries.

He will be our guest tomorrow talking about the modern prophecy movement. I want to thank you so much,

Virgil, for doing such an exquisite job as you always do on the show. I look forward to many frequent returns from you in the future.

I want to thank all of our listeners. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater