August 17, 2004

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now, it's 602 973 4602 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 and now with today's topic. Here is James white.

Upcoming Travel, Conferences, and Hurricane Updates

And good morning. Good afternoon, whatever it is where you are. Welcome to the dividing line. We are live again today. We will not be live on Thursday. In fact, we just we just won't be here on Thursday because I'm heading back To the Harrisburg, Pennsylvania area in essence middle to south middle to southern portion of the state and I'll be the first time I've been there in a while.

I was there about 94 is 1994. I think was last time I was there and Spent six years there lived six years there. Hurricane was it Agnes? Was that the one that came through there? Well, we got hit with a hurricane at one point and it.

Really.

Well, we've got flooded in our house. Had this crawl space underneath the house and and the Susquehanna River and all that type of stuff. But anyway, that's where I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be speaking on Friday and Saturday.

And on Sunday, in fact, we speaking in the morning services as well. And in fact, I need to repost the now that's just thinking about it. Can't keep up with everything you need to keep up with on the blog you know that I've tried to put some stuff up there if you go to www .rctr .org resource index and resource blog.

That's Jeff downsite and all the information is there for the 2004 apologetics conference Calvary Orthodox Presbyterian Church, Middletown, Pennsylvania and You can find the information there my silly looking picture and I'll give you addressing just about everything there is to address at some point in time challenges to justification the challenges of open theism, in fact, one of my open files here on my system is a PowerPoint presentation on that particular subject and Then scripture alone, by the way, I've been told by Bethany house they expect.

They want the scripture alone book in bookstores by October 1st. So that means it should be shipping late September and this is August. So we're we're talking about the possibility of it at least shipping to us In as little as what maybe 40 days or so.

So let's have 40 days of purpose. Never mind, I think that I was gonna take him. But anyway scripture alone in the first session 7 9 p .m. On Friday night and on Saturday couple different sessions on various subjects Saturday evening King James the King James only presentation and I'll probably go ahead and use the new presentation that I came up with for the American Bible Society because I put all sorts of neat and fun stuff in that and then I'll be preaching on Philippians chapter 2 at Calvary Orthodox Presbyterian Church Sunday morning and Lord willing getting back here to the Phoenix area Sunday evening.

So that's coming up this coming weekend. For those of you in the Pennsylvania area and then we're heading off to believe it or not. The the calendar on the website is actually pretty much right. It's not from 2002.

Anything like that those of you who knows for a long time know that the calendar has always been somewhat of a joke. But it's not September 10th through 11th. I'll be up in in Toronto, Canada. Eh and At the solo scriptura ministries Conference up there again linked from our website presenting truth in a truthless age and then two weeks later Southwest founders conference meeting Mansfield, Texas and who knows where anything is in Texas, Texas is a nation unto itself and Then October 15th through 18th Henderson Hills Baptist Church, Edmond, Oklahoma.

October 29th to 31st in the Chicago area just waiting for all the details on that one and then the very next weekend. It's gonna be a week. I'll tell you November 4th through the 13th Los Angeles and the Pacific Ocean Debate conference and cruise and all the stuff going on with that.

So by the way those of you who were thinking about The folks, California Tom Askew who's going to be one of our speakers at the conference. They were smack-dab in the middle of Hurricane Charlie, but Tom's home and the The church did all right, but they did have of course Members of their church that that pretty much lost everything 145 mile an hour winds can wreak havoc and Michael Fallon went down there yesterday and dropped off some supplies and things like that and he said it was just just looked like a massive bomb had gone off and just blew everything away and it is amazing what things look like and how how accustomed we we become to what things are supposed to look like and how.

How uncomfortable we get when they change. I know we had a little bit of a Blow here the past few nights and Sunday night I was coming home from church and came around a corner and there were two big trees right down in the right in the far right lane and No one evidently had known anything about it yet because there weren't any flares lights.

It was a dark area and Was very fortunate to get over in the next lane before I ate the tree. So. And that was probably what 60 mile an hour winds at the best and so double that and add a few more. And there would not be many trees here in the Phoenix area.

That would that would still be upright. Because we just trees here just don't go that. That deep no to no two ways at all. So anyhow, that's Tom Askel is doing all right but of course their church could use assistance and the prayers and and a lot of the Saints down there is they try to clean up from Charlie and You know that that's it's sort of like Complaining a little bit about the heat when you live in Arizona, you know.

And the heats bugging me a lot these days you live in Florida. This little peninsula and the amazing thing was I was listening like Michael Fallon and people and they were talking about. Well, my house is 14 feet above sea level and in Florida, that's like a mountain.

It's like wow, okay. You know you live on a sliver of land that juts out into the ocean and boy. It's just something you something you expect, you know, it's eventually, you know, Tampa was spared this time.

It's gonna get hit, you know someday. It's just gonna get hit. It's it's just it has to happen. Eventually. That's just sort of how mathematics works and you spin enough storms out of the Atlantic and it's it's eventually gonna spin around the back.

And and hit Tampa the way that they thought it was going to so it is an amazing thing. Anyhow, eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one is the phone number eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one by the way, I Was on KGO V this morning, which is up in Oregon, Southern, Oregon and what had happened was I had gotten this email last week and Dave Hunt had been on this program.

Talking about the book debating Calvinism and I may have misread the email. Okay, but it seemed that the person email was saying that if you listen to that program. You would not have known that this was a book that had two authors.

And I.

Hadn't no one had contacted me. In fact since the since the book came out I had not done a single radio program on The on the entirety of the book and that's pretty unusual. Generally the publishers have someone who sends out press kits to to all these Christian talk-show hosts and You know you as an author make yourself available and you fit it into your schedule and and you you try to work around these Radio programs and I've done hundreds of these programs.

I mean when Bethany house put out letters to a Mormon elder originally I think I did a minimum of 90 programs in the first few months just on letters to a Mormon elder. That's how aggressive they were in in promoting the Promoting the the book and so I've done dead zillions of these these programs and and you can you can tell When the person doing the interview has read the book and when the person during the interview hasn't a clue What the book is about?

I mean, I've done some programs before where it was really sad. It's just oh man, but anyway. So I get this email and and basically this person's asking me do you turn these down and I'm like No, I haven't been offered any of them.

And so I contacted Multnomah and I'm like, um Are y 'all promoting this book, but I just don't get to be a part of it or you know, what's what's the story here and Basically, I was told wow. I guess there are two authors here and So they're going back to all the stations the day's been on saying oh by the way, you know There's two two sides of this and if you'd like to have the other side and so this morning I was on KGO V and of course I did get the opportunity and it was only 30 minutes long and I talked really really really really fast much faster than normally Talk on this program and I got lots of stuff in there, you know in a short period of time.

And there were good questions that were asked they were right on on this on the subject. They're right on on the topic and and they did represent what Dave Hunt would say and what he did say in the book.

And so that was that was good but I did get to mention that.

The.

You know, I'm willing to come on with Dave Hunt. I want to debate Dave Hunt. I believe a debate would be an extremely Useful, you know the videotape of debate the CD the DVDs of a debate along with that book would be wonderfully useful.

And I've said that for a long long time that's been on the blog forever in a day and There are articles out there and Dave Hunt well knows that I am more than happy to debate him if he would be willing to do so, but he's not willing to do so and So, you know the the host fell by his Perry was saying I'll talk to Dave.

We'll get you both on and I'm like, yeah. Okay. Well, good luck. I'm all the best all the best to you. I would like to see that happen, but I just don't get a feeling that's how it's gonna work. But that's okay.

Let's. I hope he's very successful. I hope he's very persuasive. I'd like to see it happen, but the interesting The hunt for Dave Hunt. Yes. Very good. I like that. Anyway, what was really interesting?

Was at one point it was mentioned that there were gonna be some pastors local pastors who were gonna come on after me to comment on what I said and That they were sitting in a car in the parking lot listening to the program and I I didn't want to waste time Discussing that but I'm sort of like well, you know, I'd be happy to stay around if you like.

You know, I mean, why do you have to have pastors come in to comment afterwards, you know I mean, I mean, I'll stay around and talk with them or you know. Whatever so I requested a tape and they're gonna send me a tape of the second section that I didn't get to hear.

Where the folks responded and if they're not reformed pastors I can pretty much guarantee you that we probably heard something about second Peter 3 9 verses 2 4 math 23 37 but we'll find out so hopefully the tapes will be sent and and I wonder if there were any local reformed pastors invited in to respond to Dave Hunt.

Hmm, that would be interesting. I Don't know folks I I Confess to a certain level of frustration. Because You know you I I thought you know, you would think anyway that These issues would be issues where there would be such a willingness Since we're talking about the gospel and we're talking about the glory of the gospel and the the meaning of the cross and the effect of the cross.

You would think that this would be stuff that would would really be something that would be openly discussed and and and so willingly embraced and Unfortunately, it just doesn't seem the way the way it is in the vast majority of instances and and I just hear people Repeatedly saying.

Yeah. Well second Peter 3 9 says and so you exegete second Peter 3 9. And do you get a response? Do you get a refutation? Do you get something textually based? Well, I don't find that compelling so second Peter 3 9 says and it that's just the that's as far as it can go.

You know, it's that's because it's philosophically driven and not exegetically driven and yeah. Well, we've covered all that before eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is phone number you can get involved in the program today and This is the third time that we've had this caller I believe and and.

Total Depravity, Regeneration, and Imputed Righteousness

So I'm hopefully gonna get the name right even though it's always been provided to me before I think it's Jamin in South Dakota up. There. Hi, how you doing? Good?

Good. I just got a couple questions again. Okay? It's kind of concerning with depravity. And what I've been reading in this book is how can. Well man is unable to uh, which book are referring. Well the Olsen one.

Oh. But this but before I get to that a man cannot choose a Contrary to his nature, right? I mean, you know a man with a sinful nature will not choose anything spiritually good.

Well, Jesus did say that he who commits sin is the slave of sin, you know, right?

But then doesn't the reverse follow that that that nature is is crucified when the Believers is Regenerated. And upon what basis does any man then sin with the new nature?

Well, remember the scripture tells us that there is still abiding sin within us and when you say crucified that means it's control over us is broken, but until we Stand in the presence of God completely sanctified and perfected the the Christian experiences that Conflict between the old and the new Throughout his life and that's that's one of the Areas where you have some who developed a perfectionistic theology that in essence says no you know, we can be perfect in this life in the sense of experiencing perfection of sanctification prior to death and and the Obliteration of the old nature and there's just too much clear teaching of scripture concerning If any man sins we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous and and so on so forth so the the issue is Is not a black and white.

Well, if you were a slave in the sense of You know, all you had was the the evil desires of the heart But now that's all gone. That's a perfect sanctification and and now therefore you'll never sin and and here's why so-and-so.

Case.

Then how does it send in the man?

That's due to the perfect righteousness of Christ, which is imputed to us and is our present possession and That's one of the one of the issues that's up for grabs in the in the debate right now about those who who deny the imputation of the righteousness of Christ to us the the answer has has been the past that We we are clothed in that alien righteousness and that's why as Paul says Romans 5 1 therefore having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ and It is it is Christ's work within us that that makes it possible for the Holy Spirit to to dwell within That which is not yet fully perfected and sanctified.

But the the normal answer as to how that is has been based upon the imputation of the righteousness of Christ. Now you have people saying well, no, we went too far with that. And that's that detracts from Christ.

I don't know how that can detract from Christ, but that's one of the many questions I don't get any answers to and ask these things and people say you're just attacking people. Well, I'm just trying to ask some questions here.

Why in the world do you say that? But anyhow, that's neither here nor there. That that alien righteousness and the the perfection of that righteousness then becomes a foundation upon which the Spirit of God Works within us and and continues to conform us the image of Christ.

So it's not a righteousness that is our own. It's it has to be the perfect righteousness of Christ.

All right.

On page 110 of Gordon Alton's book He says. I've also argued that a tripartite Nature of man implies that the human spirit the God conscious part of man became inoperative in the unregenerate man. Spiritual death means separation from God Ephesians 4 18 not the total destruction of the spirit.

This is also a basis for God's ability sinners. What he's basically saying and I think you've already read the book, but uh He's saying that Spiritual deadness does not.

Necessarily imply spiritual inability. Well first I'm not. I don't hold to the tripartite view. I hold to a bipartite view so I would disagree with him on that. And secondly No one believes that the spiritual nature of man.

Well, at least no one who's reformed believes that the spiritual nature of man is destroyed. The issue is Capacity and ability. That's one of the misrepresentations of Dave Hunt and and even amazingly enough shockingly enough Norman Geisler.

That's reformed people believe that the the will has been destroyed or the image of God has been Utterly erased and and removed and so on so none of those things are true. The issue when we come to ability or inability really is a biblical issue because the Bible continuously uses the term inability and not ability.

It's it's amazing how people avoid that rather simple fact and. So I would not even begin to agree if that is a a proper representation of what you just read. Because it assumes the reformed person is is promoting somehow the connection of inability to the the radical destruction of that element of man's nature that would give him that ability know the the the you know, I can be a Quadriplegic in one of two ways I can have my arms my legs cut off or I can have no Ability to use my arms my legs due to a spinal cord injury.

Yeah, so I can have the those elements intact that. Before the fall we're capable doing X Y or Z and after regeneration are doing cable doing X Y Z. But that doesn't mean that I can use them in a fallen state.

All right one last question. Yes, sir. What do you say when people kind of say like like after you've said You know that Jesus saved, you know, and doesn't just make it a potential salvation. When they say well, no, he really didn't because They're not saved yet.

I mean it hasn't been applied yet. The Holy Spirit hasn't applied yet. I mean, what is I? Mean, what do you what do you say to. Well, he really didn't save yet.

Well, well such a person is confusing categories very very badly when I say that Christ is a perfect Savior. And he actually saves. I am NOT saying that he only saved the people who lived up until that point in time.

It is very clear and very obvious in light of the doctrine of the union of the elect with Christ and in Ephesians chapter 2 the the fact that the Apostle can look at All of the elect joined with Christ and can view their salvation as a past tense reality from God's perspective.

It is absolutely certain. There is no question about that. And so since it is God's intention to create a people Through the ages in the church who are zealous for good deeds and peculiar people in Christ Jesus on so forth.

Then it's rather painfully obvious that that has to be something that transcends time and that our union with Christ is something that Transcends time as well and that we then experience and we see this in the New Testament.

I mean that there were people being saved Who were coming to know Christ in the New Testament who were not alive at the time of the crucifixion? Young people who were coming to know Christ at the time who were not even alive at the time of crucifixion.

So that had already begun even what we see in the New Testament. So the person is confusing the reality of the fact that this has to be applied in my experience because I'm a temporal being I I don't have conscious recollection of my union with Christ at the time of the cross.

I mean I didn't exist at that time so obviously there has to be a temporal application of The certainty of that union with Christ that was that was accomplished in the past. What they're confusing that with is Their viewpoint which is that Christ I and again you'd have to ask the specific person.

But evidently some would be saying That that some were united with Christ and he's going to fail to save them or that he is attempting to save Everyone who was united with him that every all of mankind was united with Christ in his death.

I suppose that would be the only Consistent way of having universal substitutionary atonement so all of mankind is united with Christ in his death, and it's Christ intention To save those individuals the father's decree to save those individuals the spirit tries to save those individuals and in all of those things.

It's not a matter of application. It's a matter of failure of application the application is attempted. But it fails because of the lack of human cooperation with it those are two completely different things.

The the fact that God tries and fails. That's that's one problem the fact that we as temporal creatures have to experience in our own experience. The application of what has been certainly one for us in Christ.

That's a completely different issue to put them on the same plane is is just simply to confuse categories.

All right, well, thanks.

Okay, thank you, sir. Eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one. Yes was just mentioned channel John Murray's redemption accomplished and applied there there's a lot of. And it's really touches on some of the stuff.

We've been talking about on the blog There are many people today Who? Do not believe that the scriptures are clear enough in their teaching to Produce what is called an ordo salutis an order of salvation?

They do not believe and in fact what they're really actively promoting is That we have gone too far. We have systematized beyond the level of what the scriptures actually allow us to systematize and We have and you know you got to take this kind of argument seriously in light of our own use this argument against others in essence what they are accusing us of is is elevating certain traditions to the level of dogma or doctrine and That we have not followed solo scriptura in The creation of this of this ordo salutis and there are all sorts of different takes on this.

That's that's one of the things I've been sharing with Some of the brothers in the ministry some of the folks at church brother John Sampson came by our church Sunday night and Afterwards we were we were chatting for a while and and I've just been very very open in Sharing with anyone in the ministry of people to church.

And some of my quite honestly misgivings and concerns about the upcoming debate simply in the way that it could go as far as topic goes and my concern that unfortunately a large number I would estimate 85 of the people walking into that debate are Going to hear a debate on a subject other than what they expected to be on.

In other words I know many people even people in our chat channel people I'm looking at right now in the chat channel who think that the federal vision movement of which Douglas Wilson is a Representative and there are numerous viewpoints within the federal vision movement.

That the federal vision movement is identical new perspectivism it isn't. It comes from a much more conservative perspective. It has a much more conservative doctrine of scripture. Douglas Wilson has criticized elements of the new perspective certainly not as strongly as as I would and there are places where new perspectivism and federal vision is a touch and And come up with similar conclusions.

I mean when I hear Steve Schlissel and I've played this on on the dividing line in the past. And when I hear Steve Schlissel saying look all justification is that Jews and Gentiles together in one covenant.

That's Nt. Right, but Nt. Right got there from a completely different road. Then Steve Schlissel did and I honestly don't know How Schlissel Fleshes out that assertion, but I don't think that's what Douglas Wilson's saying.

So I see conflicts there and my problem my concern is is that when your audience walks in? with all sorts of wrong ideas. About what this debate is going to be about. The fault of that is never the audience's.

My experience in 53 some-odd Moderated public debates my experience now is that that if there is any confusion no matter how hard you tried it is your fault and. So I confess to being somewhat concerned about This this particular issue because I don't know if there's anything I can do to.

You know even in the period of time that I have during the debate surely I don't. I cannot do so and there's not much I can do beforehand other than maybe addressing it on the dividing line a little bit more regularly, but The fact the matter is there's gonna be a lot of folks Who are going to be very confused? By what we're saying because they bring the wrong presuppositions with them to the debate.

And.

They're thinking we're gonna be talking about XY and Z now I can tell you right now what Doug Wilson's gonna say. Doug Wilson's gonna say Roman Catholics are heretics. He's gonna say we need to fight them to the last ditch he's gonna say that we we need to Grab them by their baptism and call them to faithfulness to to the covenantal baptism that they've received the name of the Father's done Holy Spirit.

That's where the problem lies for me because I don't believe That any action whether it's baptism or the Lord's Supper or anything else you want to put together any action that is not taken within the context of the truth of the gospel is not a Christian action and That's where we disagree.

Because as far as I understand what he's saying and I've listened to him. I have his books sitting here next to me. I have one of the newest books that Covenant Media Foundation just put out Backbone of the Bible covenants in contemporary perspective edited by P. Andrew Sandlin Forward by John Freeman.

Let me tell you something. We're gonna go ahead and take our break. I want to talk a little about John frames forward to this because it was it was just wrong. That's just all there is to it was wrong and Is is is bad stuff?

But anyway, I've I know what Doug Wilson believes I I. And I also know I'm gonna be straight for this. There are people outside the federal vision movement that have misrepresented Douglas Wilson. There's no question about that.

So my job is so multi multi-pointed That it's that it's it's daunting. There's no two ways about it. It's going to be a tremendous challenge. I am taking you very seriously, but it's gonna be a tremendous challenge.

We're gonna take our break. Our phone lines are wide open at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. We'll be right back.

Justification, the Gospel, and the Coming Debate

Try to save your soul from death. It's all works righteousness, you know. Can I manufacture grace myself to die some religious place? By weeping hard on your face saying prayers. At the heart of the controversy between Roman Catholic and Reformation theology is the nature of justification itself.

It is a debate not merely about how or when or by what means a person is justified. But about the very meaning of justification and the gospel of Jesus Christ. What's a debate reserved for Roman Catholics and the Reformers.

The doctrine of justification is now being challenged from within the walls of reformed? evangelicalism itself. Join Alpha and Omega ministries as we embark on our first national conference and confront this very issue.

Justification the heart of the gospel. With pastor and co-author of Holy Scripture the ground and pillar of our faith David King the president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Founders Conference.

Tom Askel New Testament Research Ministries founder and author of evangelical answers. Eric Svensson. The founder of the Spurgeon Archive and executive director of grace to you Philip Johnson. Nationally renowned Reformed Christian artist Steve Camp and the founder of Alpha Omega ministries and author.

Dr James White. Join us at the Los Angeles, California LAX Sheraton ballroom on November 6 2004 beginning at 845 a .m. Seating is limited. So order your tickets now at a omen org. That's www .aomin .org.

Answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the Word of God James White in his book the King James only controversy examines allegations that modern translators Conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true Christian faith.

In a readable and responsible style author James White traces the development of Bible translations old and new and Investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611.

You can order your copy of James White's book the King James only controversy by going to our website at www .aomin .org.

Convictions once held and died for among Bible-believing Protestants are now being reconsidered with the advent of the recent Auburn Avenue movement. Is there currently a common basis for dialogue between Roman Catholics and Protestants?

Were the signers of ECT correct in their ecumenical efforts and all of the reformed scholars who opposed them in error? Does Trinitarian baptism make one a member of the New Covenant our Roman Catholics our brothers and sisters in Christ?

Join us in Los Angeles, California on November 5th 2004 for a full three hours of moderated debate between dr James White of Alpha and Omega ministries and Douglas Wilson of the Auburn Avenue movement and new st Andrews College as these topics are debated between two of the most respected representatives of the opposing viewpoints.

Additional information and tickets can be ordered at a omin org. That's www .aomin org.

Open Theism, Greek Philosophy, and the Authority of Scripture

And welcome back to the dividing line and we're taking your phone calls live today discussing lots of important stuff. And we have a number of callers who've already called in today. Let's start off with Len in Knoxville, Tennessee.

Hi Len. Hey James.

I don't get your program here yet, but I follow you through other means I guess.

Oh, you you can because we're only on the web. So as long as the Internet has arrived in. Yeah, we aren't on any radio stations because that costs lots and lots and lots of money.

My question is on open theism and I probably they're all related the viewpoint that is other than the Western theology has been corrupted by Greek philosophy Via Augustine and that was passed and I get the distinct impression worried about it.

You even though they critique That the problem is him is a strong position on immutability and so forth. But it seems that Augustine and the Reformers share the Share predestination as a doctrine they share.

And so I'm wondering how do you answer that that the Greek philosophy the Reformers did did read quite a bit of Augustine. But I've never been able to establish a strong way.

Between the Reformers and Augustine. Well, there's there's no question of the connection of the Reformers with Augustine and deep Deeply drinking at the well of Augustine that the the problem is in reality that I'll explain why I said that in just a moment.

Okay. The problem is, you know. The Greek philosophy argument is always a two-edged sword as has been pointed out in in all of the books that have responded to open theism. In reality you can you can demonstrate the existence of elements of Greek philosophical thought in any theological system including and very clearly That of Clark Pinnock and and the open theist as well.

The the question is Does that mean that every element of Greek philosophy is wrong? Well, if the Greeks were wrong about everything then I mean who's who's really saying that? And of course the the real issue is.

The only weight that that kind of an argument would have is if you cannot go to Scripture and and find clear affirmation of the perfection of God and the immutability of God and and. So when I when I debated John Sanders on this subject, that's why I I really emphasize the biblical Exegetical presentation of God's perfect knowledge of the future the existence of prophecy.

And those passages where he himself speaks of his unchanging nature and. Ironically one of the responses that I got at one point was well, you know, that's a really good question. You Calvinists have had hundreds of years to work out your theology.

We open theists are still working on how it's so, you know. It's difficult especially with people like Pinnock to overly take seriously the accusation of of an undue. Let's put this way a what turned I want to use a an undue influence of Greek philosophy that is not representative of biblical theological teaching didactic teaching from Scripture when in point of fact you look at his theology and the the post-mortem evangelization and open theism and and Inclusive ism and and all this stuff that he has he has embraced.

Where is that coming from? It's certainly not come from the text of Scripture. It's coming from his philosophical presuppositions. So it's it's amazing to me that that that type of argument is is presented with the regularity that is.

But I just basically when someone presents that say well, you know. If you're saying that that there were some Greek philosophers who believed in the immutability of God. There's no question of that. The question is is that a true or a false belief and is it?

Consistent with biblical teaching or is it not consistent with biblical teaching? Let's go into the Bible and find out and that's where I find a lot of folks just aren't willing to go with me and as I do in many other areas to.

Couldn't you also say that a Platonism that Augustine sort of bought into via Plotinus.

That.

That is as far as being an unbeliever that he got a lot of things, right? I guess that would sort of fall under their critique, you know, right if we're uncritically accepting that but it seems to me that That he was a pretty smart cat.

Along with some people like Aristotle and maybe and you know in Gandhi on his view on you know, nonviolent, you know.

Whatever. So well, it seems it does seem odd that someone like Clark Pinnock would be using this kind of argument in light of the fact that he would have to See those very things and he would not just simply throw out Every non-christian philosopher as having gotten everything wrong.