Christless Christianity Q&A

Our Father in heaven, Lord, we thank you for all the blessings that are ours in Christ Jesus as we think about our own lives, what we've done, what we've failed to do, the many ways in which we have tried your patience, how we've done what we've known to be wrong, when we've failed to do what we knew was right.

Father, we are sinners, and we thank you for Christ Jesus, who lived the perfect and righteous life that we ought to have lived, died for our sins, and rose gloriously on the third day.

Father, we thank you that in time you caused us to believe in him. We thank you even for men like Michael Horton today who would proclaim the gospel, who would teach us to always preach

Christ and him crucified, and to put him forth not only for salvation but also for sanctification, teaching us not to rely on our own goodness for anything.

Father, I pray that as we talk this morning that the men would be edified, that you would be glorified, that your son would be front and center.

Father, we pray for these things in Jesus' name. Amen. Now, good leaders are always prepared.

That makes me an absolute failure, because honestly, I was telling Brian before he got here, I'm like, okay, where are we on this?

Because I'm looking and I'm going, I think we did all these questions. And, you know, true confession, before we went to the

Midwest, I was like, I thought I was set. I came back and I'm like,

I've got Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Sunday, and I'm like, I'm done. And then

I come in here this morning and I'm like, so let's open our Bibles for a moment to Revelation.

So the true confession is, I'm totally unprepared for this morning. Let's go to Revelation chapter 18.

Because I thought it was interesting, you know, why is it good to go on vacation?

Well, sometimes it's good to go on vacation because of the church that you go into. What's that?

It comes really, really close. Okay, Revelation chapter 18, beginning in verse 9.

And the kings of the earth who committed sexual immorality and lived in luxury with her will weep and wail over her when they see the smoke of her burning, her being

Babylon. They will stand far off in fear of her torment and say, alas, alas, you great city, you mighty city

Babylon. For in a single hour, your judgment has come. And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn for her since no one buys their cargo anymore.

Cargo of gold, silver, jewels, pearls, fine linen, purple cloth, silk, scarlet cloth, all kinds of scented wool, all kinds of articles of ivory, all kinds of articles of costly wood, bronze, iron, marble, cinnamon, spice, incense, myrrh, frankincense, wine, oil, fine flour, wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots and slaves, that is, human souls.

The fruit for which your soul longed has gone from you. And all your delicacies and your splendors are lost to you, never to be found again.

The merchants of these wares who gain wealth from her will stand far off in fear of her torment, weeping and mourning aloud.

Alas, alas, for the great city that was clothed in fine linen, in purple and scarlet, adorned with gold, with jewels and with pearls.

For in a single hour, excuse me, for in a single hour, all this wealth has been laid waste.

And all shipmasters and seafaring men, sailors and all those, all whose trade is on the sea, stood far off and cried out as they saw the smoke of her burning.

What city was like the great city? And they threw dust on their heads and they wept and mourned, crying out, alas, alas, for the great city, where all who had ships at sea grew rich by her wealth.

And in a single hour, she has been laid waste. Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, for God has given judgment for you against her.

That was the text that we had when we went to this church. Keeping in mind,

I mean, it's interesting to me, you know, when we talk about things like the Bible Belt, we think about the

South. There are churches all over the place. Well, in the Midwest, there are kind of churches all over the place too.

One of the denominations is that the Christian church is all over the place. The Christian church is not

Christian. You know, like the Lutheran church is not Lutheran. But we went to a church that is, let me see if I can remember the denomination.

It has reformed in it. It's like, it's not the Doug Wilson branch of things, but it's a,

I'd have to look it up. And it's in a little town. When I say little, it's probably like 20 ,000, 25 ,000, which makes it a metropolis compared to Janet's hometown of 2 ,000.

So we drove the half hour, we went to this church, and it was probably about half the size.

Well, less than half the size of BBC. The people were basically friendly enough and everything.

So what was interesting is a couple of things. One is it was high church, and by that I mean, have you been, or can you even imagine,

I don't know, it's been a long time since we've done this. Can you imagine an Old Testament reading that was reader response?

You know what that is? And so they had, he divided the church into two sections, and he had one side do one part and the other part.

But he would read and then they would talk and talk and talk and talk. And so we were doing this whole thing.

I thought, oh, this is fine, New Testament reading, Old Testament reading, this confession of sin, all these things.

We sang songs, they had two different hymnals, because they had one that was older and one that was a little bit newer.

And one thing I thought was interesting, because it's a very, like I said, pretty high church place, we sang, what's the

BBC anthem? Wonderful Grace of Jesus. And I thought, okay, this is very interesting.

At a marginally slower tempo, just a little bit slower so that you could actually breathe, which

I found rather refreshing, actually. And you're just out of breath.

But he gets to this sermon, and by the way, he basically announced, without saying he had 30 minutes, that he had 30 minutes.

Because it was almost like a countdown clock and stuff. Now when you read that passage, can you see any way in which you might preach the gospel?

So, I mean, you know, I'm just going to, I want you guys to think like preachers for a minute. And if you're looking at a section of scripture, and it closes with something that gives you an opportunity to preach the gospel, then what do you do?

And I was like, you know, he mentioned Jesus a few times. There was a lot of talk of judgment, a lot of talk about relying on riches and wealth and all these kind of things, because that's kind of what the passage is about.

But I wish I brought his outline this morning, but it was like, you know, judgment, judgment, judgment, because that's kind of how it breaks down, three parts, right?

So he had variations on this judgment. But I, you know, we left, because we do this a lot.

I don't know, do you guys do this with your wives? As you're going home, do you just go, so what did you think?

You know, what was the message? Kind of break it down a little bit. You know, what were the strong points?

What did Mike chomp? Oh, no, no. You know what? In other words, what were the good points?

What were the weak points? You know, that kind of thing. And so we leave.

And I was like, so what did you think? And she, you know, was kind of talking about the strong points.

And I go, you know, did he preach the gospel? So like, we came really close.

Maybe he will next week, and I just thought. And, you know, it's funny to me, because I don't know exactly how to put it this way, but it was like you guys were all in high school.

Most of you made it to high school. And, you know, like when they do a high school game, when they're introducing all the players or having the players come out, you know, the cheerleaders might like line the little thing and they run between the cheerleaders and, you know, like the captain will be at the end and they high -five the captain or whatever, you know, however they do it.

So somehow or another, we all get funneled, and we're not out in the lobby yet, but we all get funneled to where the pastor is standing.

And so we walk by, and so we shake hands with the pastor, right? Now, you would think,

I don't know, I would think that if you're in Podunk, Iowa, which is where we were.

Actually, there is a Podunk, Iowa. We weren't in Podunk, Iowa. This town, though, let's see if you've ever heard of this.

Oskaloosa. How many of you have been to Oskaloosa, Iowa? And that's what I mean. I mean, this is like, you know, middle of nowhere, although it is on the way to Pella, and it actually is the windows place.

I mean, it's like, because we went there. Did we go there Sunday afternoon? Yeah, I think we went there

Sunday afternoon, and we just kind of drove through it. Everything's shut down. This is just Iowa. Everything's shut down, but, you know, you could see the massive

Pella plant and all that. But anyway, so we funnel up here, and we say hi to the pastor.

He doesn't say, oh, where are you guys from? He doesn't say, oh, how did you find us? None of that stuff.

And I'm like, interesting. They didn't do anything to kind of, like, there was no welcome packet.

There was no, like, registration. There was, like, nothing. And I just thought, it's pretty old.

You know, and it was interesting to me because it had a good mix. You know, you look around, too, because you could wind up going to a church where everybody is, you know, where Keith walks in, and he goes, oh,

I'm feeling like a spring chicken today. What's that?

He's probably my age, so you know old. Yeah. Yeah. And I just thought, this is just a bizarre thing, but more than anything,

I just thought, would you mind giving us the gospel?

You know, if it wouldn't be too much trouble. I mean, after all the things that they did, you know, the confession of sin, all the things that lead into, like, a high church and all these kind of things, and then to go to this passage and ultimately not preach the gospel,

I just thought was very, very peculiar. So, yeah,

Brian. I would say it was missing.

Like, if you're looking for good news, like, how do I get forgiven of my sins, or how can

I be assured that I have eternity in heaven, I think it was missing. And I think you're on to something.

You know, it was like, you people already know the gospel. Okay? Excuse me.

But I mean, just by virtue of the fact that you have visitors, and I'm sure, you know, I'm sure we're not the only visitors they ever see, but you would think, okay, if I have anybody in the church who's new,

I'm not going to assume that we're all up to speed on this. I want to make sure and preach Christ and Him crucified.

I mean, this might be the only time that these people hear the gospel. It might be the last time that they hear the gospel.

Or they might just be looking for a place that preaches the gospel, so don't I want to make sure that I give them the gospel?

And I just thought he just ultimately whiffed.

Well, let me... Yeah, go ahead, Jonathan. Yeah, you know,

I thought about... I think I saw the program. I mean, I thought about dropping him an email.

What I wouldn't do is, hi, we were there. You didn't preach the gospel. How could you? And I know that's not what you're suggesting.

You know, I do think that there's a... I mean, there's part of me that wants to just engage with him, but I don't think

I'd probably get too far because I think, you know, you just kind of get stuck in this rut.

I did find it interesting, though, along the same lines of what you're asking. They're actually on the local radio.

And I go, hmm. Again, if you're going to be broadcasting,

I mean, we listened to the Machen sermons, you know, and it was very Christ -centered, very, you know, not every week had exactly the gospel in it, but certainly a lot of references to sin, salvation, etc.

And I'm just like, I just kind of wonder what sort of response you get from that, and I don't really know.

You know, there are a lot of churches there, but they're like Roman Catholic or...

I mean, there was a Christian denomination. There was an evangelical, you know, broadly evangelical.

Because, you know, when I say it's 20 ,000, you know, the other thing is, and you guys can imagine this, there are a ton of farms, you know, a ton of farms.

So, you know, as you're driving, I mean, you just pass all this farmland and everything, so all those farms have people.

So it's not like everybody just lives within the confines of the town or the city. They also live on the outskirts.

So, yeah, there were a lot of churches, Catholic, you know, etc., etc., etc.

And, you know, another thing that was interesting about the church is however our church may look to other people,

I mean, I don't look at it and go, this is a perfect representation of Worcester because we're not that, you know, multicultural, but I don't look at it and go, okay, this is a perfect reflection of West Boylston either because West Boylston is basically as wide as you can get, right?

So we're in a town there in Oskaloosa that's very, very wide, and the church was very, very wide.

I mean, everybody, you know, lots of, given the size of the church, which was probably, like I said,

I think I said probably about 125 people there, it was a lot of young, a lot of kids too, a lot of young families, and they did children's church right there.

I mean, not children's church, what do they call that when they bring all the kids up? Yeah, okay, children's sermon.

So I was half like, when you read children's sermon in the bulletin, what do you think?

I mean, because I'm not really used to it, I just kind of thought, oh, man, I hope some 10 -year -old isn't going to get up there and, like, give me a sermon, right?

And instead, he's got, he brings the kids up, and this kind of goes with the book, he brings the kids up, he's got, like, 12 kids, let's say, 12, why did

I pick that number? I don't know. Probably about 10 or 12 kids, and they're all just sitting down, and he's talking to them, but he's talking to them, and we can all kind of hear, right?

And what do you think he said to them? I mean, if you want to instruct kids on Christianity, I mean, keeping in mind that I'm sure they're probably infant baptizing church, how would you teach these kids?

What would you tell them? La, la, la, okay?

Okay, an object lesson, something to catch their attention, and then followed up with a clear gospel message.

So I listened to him, and he starts talking about, because, you know, here we've got these cities and stuff, he's kind of prefacing his message, and he's talking about, you know, far off cities and lands and stuff like that, mentions one of the missionaries that they support, and he says, you know what those missionaries do?

And the kids are like, tell people about Jesus? And he goes, that's right.

He goes, so you know what you should do? Tell people about Jesus? That's right.

Okay, now. You would think that, right?

What do you think? You know, how do you tell them about that? And it was just like, okay, that's good.

Yep, tell people about, I mean, I'm shortening everything up. It was probably like, but it was still only six or seven minutes.

And ultimately the message was, tell people about Jesus. Well, I'm like, so, you know, did he focus on any particular aspect about who

Jesus is? No. So, okay. So tell people about Jesus.

Is that law or gospel? It sounds like, it sounds like gospel.

So it kind of sounds like glossable, right?

Doesn't it? But the reality was, it was 100 % law.

Because if you don't say, you know, like, I mean, it would have been marvelous if you would have said, you know what, kids, you're sinners.

You know what that means? And one of the kids, you know, yeah, that means we don't do what we're supposed to do.

Great. Love it. But there was nothing like that. You know? Okay, what's another definition of sin?

You know, somebody else might say, well, we do the things that we're not supposed to do. Great. Love it.

You know, some kid might say, well, you know, my dad was talking about it last night. It means to miss the mark, to fall short of God's glory.

Did you hear that? You know, I mean, there was nothing like, where I, instead it was just kind of like, it's like he woke up that morning and thought, okay,

I got to do children's church. You know, I'll just have, we'll just talk about telling people about Jesus.

Okay. All right. I mean, they're a confessional church, I think.

But there was nothing really gospel centered about that. And the whole, the whole thing,

I just thought, okay, they're on the verge, they could be a very much a

Christ centered, gospel centered church, but they're on the verge of this.

Right? Because it's like, we have, we believe the gospel, but we don't really proclaim the gospel.

And that's the problem. You've got to hand it off. You know, this is 2

Timothy 2. You know, we have to hand it off to the next generation so that they can hand it off to the next generation, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Which isn't an exact quote, but it's close enough. Because you have to entrust it to faithful men who will then entrust it to faithful men, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

We're a little microcosm. You're visiting that church one time. Right. And you visit other churches one time, you're going to get probably universal, according to this book.

That's what's happening to the American church today. And so, how does a group like BBC impact the world to help move it so that the gospel is preached?

I think that's a great question. I mean, you know, while you were saying that... Well, no, because I did come up with an answer.

I go, just imagine, I'm going to go on vacation again to Iowa. And I go, you know what?

Let's go to that same church. It has to do with preaching. Well, yeah. So it's roughly the same thing.

And as we're leaving, I just get the pastor. And I say,

Sir, we would see Christ. And he'd be like, What? I thought

I... That is a good question. What are some of the ways that you think we can do that?

I mean, anybody have any thoughts on that? How do we encourage other churches, in other words, to preach the gospel? Podcasts.

Okay. I think I need to ask. Because when a weak answer is given, it reveals, assumed

Christ Jesus. We're supposed to correct, right? And train, disciple.

Okay, so what I hear you saying, Brian, is that I should have used some restraints that I learned on the

Sheriff's Department and torture him until he confesses. No. That's why catechism is so good.

You're just asking questions. Who can fault you for asking questions? Asking questions is good. And, you know,

I mean, it might have been a little awkward in the reception line, only because there's people behind me.

Well, time and place. Yeah. So, I mean, it wouldn't be wrong. And maybe I should just, you know, maybe, you know,

Holy Spirit's convicting me through you guys to just write him a note. And, you know, the problem is,

I'm probably trying to think to myself, how can I write this note without lying? Thank you for your hospitality.

Okay. There was no hospitality. It was a joy to meet so many people. Well, it was nice, you know, and I could tell people were.

The funny thing, though, is when you see like little kids opening the door and being nice to you and stuff like that, that's good.

It's good to be good. And it's nice to be nice. But that only gets me so far.

And, you know, I just think it wouldn't be wrong maybe if I was a little old lady who kind of had lost some of her reserve and I would just say at the reception line,

Sir, we would see Christ. You know, just give us the gospel.

Give us that two by four of the gospel right between the eyes. Because there was, there wasn't that.

You know, there was no solution for sin.

And that's ultimately a problem. And Jonathan, go ahead. And you know what?

Because there was a certain intensity to my search. That's a good point. You know, maybe this is an off week or whatever.

So there was a certain intensity in my church or church search. And, you know, what do you do?

Because, you know, what Janet said beforehand was, you know, we could go to her brother's church.

Her brother's church is like an hour away because we were going to go see Gary anyway. Gary lost his wife here a couple of years ago.

We like to go see Gary. The problem with going to see or going to Gary's church was

Gary's church is super broadly evangelical.

And I mean, like lots of lots of law, no gospel.

And, you know, six ways to be a better husband or whatever, you know, every week, that kind of stuff.

So I said, well, let's just see if we can actually go and worship the Lord somewhere. So I started looking around and, you know, around.

It's interesting because if you just, you know, one of the typical things you do to find a church, you go to the

Master's Seminary website. Well, there's nobody. This is kind of sad. There's not one graduate of the

Master's Seminary in Iowa. Nowhere. What's that? Yeah.

But, but I mean it. And it's interesting because I'm like, I go, I said, if I go, well, you know, we're only three hours away from Omaha.

We could just go here, Pat. You know, that's a pretty good drive, though. I mean, if there was any reason to make that drive,

I guess we maybe could have. But so you look around.

You know, you go to the different church finders, whether it's nine marks or, you know, whatever. Founders.

I mean, I did all the usual tricks, and I'm like, OK, so then

I just started looking for denominations and, you know, different things. and what, what, what is the name of this denomination?

I'll have to find it. What's that? OK, so there it is.

Yeah. And so, and I went and I looked at the Confession of Faith. It wasn't bad, you know, and everything, and I actually did go to the website of the church, and I pulled up one of his sermons, and I just like went to the middle of it, and I listened for like 10 minutes, and I go, it was biblical.

I just thought, I hope he's not always this kind of monotone and, you know, not very excited, but he was.

And I also thought it was interesting that when you walk in, they give you,

I should have brought this, you know, an outline of the sermon, the three points that he's going to make, and I thought, well, these aren't really bad points, but again, they were like warnings or, you know, statements of judgment or whatever, and I just thought,

OK, I mean, judgment, judgment, judgment, and especially like you said,

John, the last verse, you know, in the judgment there, you could definitely go into a gospel message, but I think, you know, if you think about it this way, well, here was something he did.

Let's think about a 30 -minute message. OK, what should be, what do you think, what are your goals, besides giving the gospel?

What are your goals if you only have 30 minutes, and it's like a hard stop, like, I don't know, like people are going to get up,

I mean, have you ever been in a church like this, where if you get to like, let's say, 1045 or whatever it is on Sunday morning, what time, oh,

I guess it'd be 1145, you know, 1145, people are going to stand up and walk out.

You ever been in a place like that, where people are just like, yeah, OK, thanks, thanks,

Pastor, we're out of here. Well, I've seen that, OK, where people are just like, yeah, you know, we like our church to end it.

So, let's say you have 30 minutes, and let's say, let's just assume, that during that 30 minutes, you want to give the gospel.

What else do you want to do in that 30 minutes? What would be your goal if you're the pastor?

OK, expose it, let's just hang there for a minute, why do you expose the text? Because that's your job.

OK, that's your job. That's your job. And what do you ultimately want when you say expose the text, what do you mean? OK, get out of the way so that Christ is proclaimed.

Yes. Preaching for a verdict. OK. Let me ask you this.

I'll ask the question. When you say exposing the text, when you say preaching Christ, you know, and all these other things, is my goal, is your goal, as you get up and you assume the pulpit, is your goal to think,

OK, I've got Revelation 18, verses 9 to 20 this morning. Do you want people to leave there that morning thinking,

I know something more about Revelation 18, verses 9 to 20? OK, now, if you only have half an hour to do that,

OK, and how many of you guys have preached before? Just any kind of sermon. OK, you know that what, half an hour is a long time?

Half an hour is a short period of time. I mean, I would be like, my intro better be like, yeah, one point message.

So, what does that, what does that, what would that make you think in your mind? What do you not want to do?

Waste time. Go off on tangents. What would be a tangent that would be dangerous if you've got half an hour to do?

Personal experience, personal application, what else? News events, which, there was a little bit of that.

I mean, not like I would expect in some of the Bible studies that I used to go to where it was like, OK, everybody, put down your

Bible for a moment, let's open the LA Times and I'm not really exaggerating. OK, so, what would be another tangent that might suck up a lot of time?

OK, application, yes. Four different views, those are deadly.

But I had something else in mind and that would be cross -references. OK? Cross -references can really be helpful in some cases.

But in other cases, they can just be time sinks.

And especially if you go to, and I really wish I brought my outline here this morning, but if you go to another place and you just kind of park there and it doesn't really help illuminate

Revelation 18, right? You know, maybe, for example, you know, you go, well, look at how it talks about ships.

Let's go and look at Jonah, how Jonah was on a ship. You're just like, dude, are you out of your mind?

What happened? You know? And it wasn't that bad, but there were some Old Testament references he used like three or four, and some of them were rather lengthy.

And, you know, in my mind, this is, I mean, this is like a hazard.

You know, I'll just give an illustration because I can do that and, you know, waste time with it. But, you know,

Jonathan probably knows, you know, more about mathematics and a number of things than most of us do because it's his livelihood.

So let's say, you know, I'm up here talking about, you know, formulations and, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Well, he's sitting there as a professional, right, evaluating it and just going, yeah,

I wouldn't say that. Mm, nah. You know, that's dopey, you know.

So I'm not really going to call myself a professional preacher, but I am trained, whether that makes me a professional or not.

So I sit there and I listen. And when he goes to these cross references, in my mind, what's going on?

I hear tick, tick, tick, because I'm just like, dude, you're telling us you're running out of time and you just read us 15 verses and now you're going to actually talk about those 15 verses.

What are you doing? The clock's ticking. You're running out. We're not going to leave here today.

We're not going to know anything about Revelation 18. Absolutely nothing. And guess what?

You didn't. We didn't. And you know, here's something. If you're preaching, what's another thing that you want to do?

Big picture. You're preaching sequentially through the book of Revelation. Well, what's the book of Revelation about?

Jesus Christ. Okay. It's a revelation of Jesus. And by the way, I saw somebody put this, you know, the book of, somebody put this on their

Facebook page. The book of Revelations is not in the canon. So, and I thought, okay, we've got the revelation of Jesus Christ.

So it seems like your sermon should show us something about Christ, right?

And I'm like, okay, as I'm leaving, I'm going, did I learn anything about Revelation 18? Maybe. Did I learn anything about Jesus?

Absolutely not. Did I hear the gospel? Close, but no cigar.

So, you know, I left there going, I could probably join this church.

But if I did, I'd probably want to say, you know, can

I preach next week? Would you mind if I just gave this a shot here? Bad.

You know, if you're going to walk through a passage like this, make sure you do.

And if there's some kind of time limit, and I don't, you know, I don't pretend to understand that. And maybe that's it.

But even so, you know, then what would I do? I would say, well, boy,

I, if I had to gear my sermon to make it half an hour, because I didn't have an editor, because, you know, when, you know, sometimes sermons here on Sunday morning wind up being the no code show.

And so what has to happen? Have to edit stuff out. And I'm like, okay, that would be fine.

You know, instead of like, it's a five or six minute introduction, you know, then maybe it winds up being, when it gets edited, it's 30 seconds or it's 45 seconds or something, but you've got to explain the text.

If you don't explain the text, then, you know, you're going to go from Revelation 18 to Revelation 19, and you're just going to keep going through the book.

And at the end of the entire book of Revelation, people are going to go, there's a lot of judgment in that book.

It's just a weird book. Yeah. Yeah, because you're really not, you're really not explaining things as you go.

And by the way, why do you suppose

I would not really care to preach Revelation, the book of Revelation?

Why is it incredibly hard? Well, it depends on your point of view, right?

You have to go back to the foundations. Keith's got it right. You have to go back to the foundations, meaning what?

If you don't have almost an encyclopedic understanding of the Old Testament, you're almost sure to get

Revelation wrong. So, I mean, I just find it, it's not like I would say, oh,

I would never, ever, ever preach through Revelation because that would be sinful. But what

I would say is, Revelation would not be my first, second, third, fourth, fifth, or sixth choice, because I just look at it and go, it's going to be so much work.

And I'm not, I would not want to come in and say things like I used to hear, like, well, obviously the grasshoppers are helicopters.

You know, and this is the UN or this is, you know, whatever.

I mean, I'm just like, I can't do that. I mean,

I think, you know, it's interesting because you know what the reformers would teach, like Luther, when he was teaching through Revelation, more of his concept of the book was, you know, basically

Roman Catholicism against the truth, right? It's so that it's all this spiritual warfare stuff and the oppression of the

Catholic church. And why do you suppose that would be? Because that's the world he's living in.

And I'm like, so really, when you think about it, there isn't that much difference between what he does and what some people do today.

But, you know, again, if you just think, what's my goal when I preach through passage and you guys now, you know, anytime

I'm preaching, you'll go, okay, did Steve help us understand this passage? You know, did he waste a lot of time with cross?

Now, by the way, are cross references bad? Okay, what would be a good time to use a cross reference?

Okay, when it supports what you're reading in the first place, you know, here's a good example. If you're teaching through the book of Colossians, what do you think a good cross reference is?

What's that? Psalms. Psalms, maybe, you know, depending on the exact passage.

I mean, when it talks about maybe in Colossians one where it's talking about Jesus, but overall, here's my point.

There are a lot of similarities between Colossians and what book? Not Romans, not

Philippians. If we keep going through the epistles, eventually we'll get there. The answer is, the answer is

Ephesians. Now, why, how can I say that? Because it's true is the correct answer.

Colossians one and two are about what? Okay, the supremacy of Jesus Christ.

And in fact, we could say they're about doctrine. The truth is about God. Ephesians one, two, and three are about doctrine.

They're about Jesus Christ. They're about, and his work.

I mean, we look at Ephesians one. So, and then Ephesians four, five, and six are, okay.

And Colossians three and four are. And if we look at, you know, a lot of the things are very similar, you know, husbands and wives and children, and, you know, just different.

In chapters three and four and, you know, and sometimes they explain things that Ephesians leaves out or leaves kind of undefined or vice versa, right?

They kind of expand. So, I mean, they're often helpful in developing one or the other, okay?

Those are, that's a good example of cross -references. Other examples are where it's virtually demanded by the text.

In fact, I think what he did, and I know he went to Daniel in one part, and I wonder why he did that.

I mean, he just, yeah, but I, yeah, but I think there was something else that he did.

And, you know, I'm not saying it was bad, but it was just, again, it was too long.

When you know that you only have, you know, X amount of time, you've really got to sort of focus on it.

And I don't even remember things impossible for God has given you judgment over it.

I don't remember exactly what the thing was. I mean, you know, frankly, when, you know, and I do apologize for canceling last week, because boy, that would have been a disaster since I couldn't talk or anything else, but, and hadn't done my work.

When I came back, I was fine for a couple of days, and then I started getting this little cough. And by Sunday evening, two weeks ago,

I could tell I was sick. And, you know, it just kept getting worse to the point where, I don't know if I, some of you guys might've heard me, but I don't remember actually coughing to the point before,

I was talking to Pradeep, and he had the same thing, where I was coughing to the point where I was going to vomit.

And I'm like, I have never coughed like that before in my life, and I'm just like, this is awful.

And I would wake up, you know, two o 'clock in the morning and cough like that, and I'm gone. And, you know, for several nights before Saturday, and the reason

I canceled, I basically, I was sleeping like maybe 15 minutes at a time, you know, just because of all the coughing and everything like that.

So I just thought, I can't do this. And so last Saturday, I was in urgent care. And, you know, why do you go to urgent care?

Okay, because you urgently need care, but there are more practical reasons for it. You don't want to go to the

ER, and you can't get to your regular doctor, you know, they'll see you in a few days.

But I, you know, I haven't even, I've yet to meet my regular doctor. I'm looking forward to it.

My regular doctor retired. I see him at the gym. That guy's buff. But if you go to your regular doctor, at least my doctor, because he was, even though I'm an 80 -20 patient, what does that mean?

No, it means I have 80 -20 insurance. But he's used to seeing people who are part of the HMO. And so what do

HMO doctors do? They try to get rid of you.

You know, and they try to get rid of you with the least amount of cost to the company. So it's usually no prescription, no nothing, you know.

And so when you go to urgent care, what do they do? They try to give you as much as, you know, whatever you want, you know, if you're like, you want to sign up for some kind of, you know, new trial, you know, drug or whatever.

They're like, sure, you know, here you go. Because basically you're paying them to give you something, right?

I mean, that's why they exist. I mean, if you go to urgent care and they do nothing for you, are you going to go back?

So, I mean, it's kind of like, when you go to the urgent care, it's almost like going to the supermarket. Here's what

I would like. Next stop. Okay, well, let's just stop there for a moment.

Where would I talk about? Oh, it was last Sunday at Sunday school. Probably not too many were there. My sister -in -law, back to vacation land, and we'll tie this back in in a minute.

Sister -in -law is very devoutly Roman Catholic. She had this book on her computer desk that talked about the

Eucharist. And so I flipped it open and the introduction said, you know, that roughly,

I thought this was interesting. It wasn't a Barna survey, but according to this author, two thirds of practicing

Roman Catholics don't believe the Eucharist is physically the blood and body of Christ.

Okay, good. Well, yeah, you say good, but what does that really say? It says that they're practicing

Catholics, but they're practicing Catholics who don't understand Catholic doctrine. So here's my point.

You say, you know, does your church preach the gospel? Well, that assumes one question, that she knows the gospel, right?

So it's almost like you want to say, and this kind of, you know, you have to handle this a little bit delicately.

You can't just say, I bet you don't even know what the gospel is. Because that's like, bam.

Yeah. Could you share the gospel with me? Yeah. So, you know, it's almost like, well, you know what?

Let's just role play for a second. How about you be the evangelist and I'll be the unbeliever? And, you know,

I bet you're gonna hear a lot about how Jesus makes her feel, you know, the security that she has, you know, how he's her best friend, you know, and he walks with me and he talks with me and et cetera.

But will she be able to articulate the gospel? And the answer is, I don't really know. Jonathan. Right. Right, because, you know, now if you ask me what the gospel is,

I'm gonna say, well, that's a good question. And then I'm going to talk about it, right? But I think for some people who've kind of pushed the gospel aside in their ministry now, you know, because I think, let's say, let's presume that he knows the gospel.

What you've really done is, you know, he's got an infected and bloody wound on his shoulder, you know, that he's been ignoring and you just put your fingers right on it and it's just like, he's in pain, right?

But getting back to Keith's friend here, you know, how could you like present this in a way that doesn't basically back her in a corner or offend her, you know, and make her think, okay,

Keith just thinks I'm a dummy or Keith thinks I'm an unbeliever or whatever.

Brian. Again, what did Jesus actually accomplish?

Why do people need the gospel? What did Jesus actually accomplish, Jonathan? Okay, and I think this is good because this gets back to one of the themes of the book too.

So you kind of go through a message that you've heard at BBC, then the woman says to you something like, well, we all know that.

Why would the pastor do that on Sunday morning? Because you have to be reminded all the time.

Because the gospel is for Christians. Okay, because the gospel is for Christians. It's an encouragement. It is an encouragement, right?

All these things are true. I mean, you know, the day, I mean, we haven't been to a

Red Sox game for a while, you know, I think with COVID and now the avid, I have a hard time, true confessions, maybe

I should turn the microphone off. I have a hard time with any company or organization that pushes really hard on BLM.

I just do. You know, when we were up in Vermont, you know, we were at the hometown of Ben and Jerry's and I'm just like, that tour is not happening.

Or, you know, I was thinking, well, maybe if we go back there next year, maybe we'll all just make sure that everybody has a

Blue Lives Matter shirt on and we'll just, you know, we love police officers or whatever, then we'll go in there and they'll be like, yeah, yeah, they won't like that either.

You know, I stand with Israel, shame on you. But when we would go to the

Red Sox games, you guys have probably, how many have ever been to a Red Sox game? Okay, when you walk, you know, toward what used to be

Yawkey Way, I don't know what they're gonna call it now, you know, it turns out Yawkey was the man of his time.

So as you walk along there, there's usually a guy giving out tracts and preaching the gospel, right?

Now, you know, he may not articulate things or whatever, you know, but I would always find myself going, you know, thank you for that.

I mean, I think the day that a Christian says, I am offended that you would preach the gospel.

I don't even understand that. Because if we understand the gospel to be, you know, and I think what

Jonathan said about this other pastor is instructive because he says, you know,

I know the gospel because the way I live my life. What's he saying? You know, if you wanna learn the gospel, watch me.

Okay, bro. So what are you gonna do? Everything perfect all the time.

No, that's not what I mean. Okay, then what do you mean? I mean, gospel means what?

Well, it means good news. So how would I know that you know the gospel the way you live your life, right?

What's that? I mean, look, if, you know, cause that's what it gets down to.

If the gospel is be a good neighbor, you know, then

State Farm is there. This is just like that kind of thing where somebody is gonna get offended because you're questioning their knowledge of the gospel or you're questioning their proclamation of the gospel.

What they should be thinking is, I know I don't do great all the time. You know, I know when

I get up here on Sunday morning, you know, I'm picking on this guy, but other people could go home and say, you know what,

Steve spent way too much time doing this, doing that, and he could have done this instead or whatever.

And you know what? Even sometimes when I get home, I find myself going, I probably could have stressed this or I could have done that.

You know, even sometimes this is the worst when you're preaching and you go, yeah,

I wish I'd done that instead. I mean, like, you know, you can second guess yourself while you're preaching.

That's rather uncomfortable. But here's the point. I do think I comfort myself this way sometimes by thinking, yeah,

I could have done that, but that would have taken the sermon in a whole different direction, which would have been good, but that's not what

I was doing. And why do I say that? Because I remember, and I probably told you guys this before, but not for a long time, so you bear with me.

There were a few instances in which, because in seminary, when you're doing the preaching labs, they would tell you, okay, this week, you're going to do an

Old Testament narrative. This week, you're going to take a gospel passage.

This week, you're going to, so sometimes, guess what? The two guys who are preaching have exactly the same text.

Now, in that case, which do you want to be? The first guy or the second guy? Right?

Well, you think that, but here's the interesting thing. Because when we, the truth is, we say about scripture that it's a multifaceted kind of diamond or jewel or whatever, you look at it in different ways, you see different things, and that's the reality.

When you come to preach a passage, Chuck, you and I could have the same passage and we might emphasize different things and we might both be correct.

Does that mean that there are multiple ways of interpreting scripture? No, that's not what it means.

It means that when I come to a passage, even if I'm interpreting right, I might decide to emphasize a different part of it because, you know what?

No matter what, whether it's in a class, whether it's in a church setting, whatever, I'm not

John MacArthur. I can't go, I, Paul, and we're going to be doing this for the next six weeks.

Right? I can't do that, nor would I want to. Um, but, you know, my passage could be,

I, Paul, and I could take it off, which, don't ever try to do that. I could take it off in this direction and then

Chuck could get up right after me and go in another direction, and you know what the end result will be, and the third person could do the same thing.

And everybody in the congregation would be thinking, their initial thought would be, I can't believe

Chuck's taking the same passage Steve took. And then they'd sit and listen and go, but Chuck's saying some things that Steve didn't say, and they're right, and they're good, and they don't contradict what

Steve said. This is kind of amazing. And that's the nature of scripture, right?

So, all that to say, you know, again, when we look at Revelation 18 verses 9 and 20,

I could differ in my understanding of what, excuse me, of what it means, or how it should be applied or whatever.

But if I had, you know, that text, I might take it a certain way, somebody else might take it a different way, and we might do different things with it.

But ultimately, as long as we're faithfully exposing the text, saying what it means, applying it in the overall scheme, not just of the book, but of scripture in general, keeping in mind that there is a cohesive kind of storyline going on.

We could each sit there, I mean, it'd be, we won't do this, but it'd be fun some Sunday morning to like, have

Mike do a sermon, and then me do a sermon on the same passage. Just because we'd be like, people go, some people, you know, let's say 89 .9

% of the congregation go, I like Mike's better. And then you go, but Steve did say some things that Mike didn't say, and kind of helped me understand the passage a little better, and you know, and that's all fine.

I mean, like you said, the problem with being second is, you find yourself second guessing going, okay,

Mike already said that. So do I repeat that?

And the answer is, yes. Why? Because probably not everybody who is listening to Mike probably caught on to it, you're going to frame it in a slightly different way, which is going to help people in a slightly different way.

And the overall idea is to help people understand the context, the meaning of the passage, and to better appreciate what the

Holy Spirit's doing there. Well, because, because, you know, then you just say, okay, that's very interesting.

So maybe you could explain, you know, a couple things to me, you know, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on, and just kind of like, because the reality is, when

Paul talks, you know, and let's just, I think this is an apropos place to go here in Romans, you know, here was a guy who knew, you know, true or false,

Paul knew a little bit about the scriptures and about God. And so when he says in chapter 11 of Romans, verse 33,

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God, how unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways for who has known the mind of the

Lord or who has been his counselor. Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid for from him and through him and to him are all things to him, be the glory forever.

Amen. When he says that, you know, what is he thinking? Is he thinking, yeah, you know, the gospel pretty rudimentary.

Christ died for my sins. He lived for my righteousness. He rose on the third day. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Why is it unsearchable? Why is it inscrutable? Why are all the ways of God so amazing to Paul?

Why can he say in first Timothy, I am the chief of all sinners.

Why can he say things like that? Because as he gazes more on Christ, as he considers the gospel more and more, as more of his sin is laid bare to him, he becomes more amazed at the love of God.

Right? He's not thinking, I'm done with doctrine, you know, enough of that.

I think I know just about all this Jesus thing that I need to know. Jonathan.

Yes. And that's exactly right. You know, over time, you will learn more. You'll understand more because you're being sanctified and you're being conformed to the image of Christ.

And I think, you know, the day that somebody says, I'm bored with the gospel.

I'm bored with the fact that Jesus redeemed my life from the pit. This is just old news to me.

What would you say to somebody like that? I mean, they've somehow in their mind, that's exactly right.

They somehow in their mind narrowed this gap, you know, or maybe it's just kind of fixed even, you know, they're like, yeah, that's pretty impressive what

God did. Okay. Pretty impressive.

I mean, I think, you know, like you said, I think it kind of gets to the point where people think they're pretty good.

And, you know, these days, I think it's easy to make yourself good because, hey, I'm not a

Palestinian terrorist. Yeah.

I'm not, I'm not going in and shooting, you know, grandma and I'm not decapitating babies and I'm not doing all that stuff.

Good for you. So I must be, you know, on the scale of morality,

I must be doing all right. I'm better than most. And I think that's so true, you know, right?

Because it should soften our hearts, right? Instead of hardening our hearts. And if I could put it another way, when we understand rightly what

God has done for us in Christ Jesus, how he's forgiven us of our sins. And this is one of the reasons why

I just say, you know, every Christian, especially married Christians, should memorize

Ephesians 4 .29 and Ephesians 4 .32. Why? Because Ephesians 4 .29

would tell us to only speak edifying words. And I mean, it would not be good for you to do this to your wife or for her to do it to you.

But as soon as you said something, have her say, you know, is that edifying? What's right would be for you to think to yourself, okay, what

I'm about to say, is it edifying? Does it build up?

Or does it tear down? Even if it's a correction or something else, am

I saying this in the most edifying way I can? But Ephesians 4 .32,

when it talks about how God in Christ Jesus has forgiven us, that's how we're to forgive others.

And it's this idea that John's getting to, or John's saying, basically, when we understand how much we've been forgiven, it makes us more likely to hold grudges against other people.

No, more likely to forgive. I mean, that's the point of the parable in Matthew 18.

And this is why I think, you know, forgiveness, Mike and I talk about this, and it's like, you know, if you don't have anything else to preach on Sunday morning, if you know you get tapped at the last second, preach about forgiveness.

Why? Because we're really bad at it. You know, no matter how good we think we are, it's probably like D minus, you know, that the best of us forgive, like at D minus level.

And the worst of us are probably at F plus. But fail but try.

I always wanted to see that on a report card. F plus. And I never really thought about that until seminary, because, you know, seminary, they're really big on the half grade.

So you get, you know, if you get a 96 or above, it's an

A, but if you get a 95, it's an A minus. And the minus counts, you know, it's 3 .7

towards your GPA instead of. So I'm just like, okay, well, if I'm going to fail a class,

I'd at least like to get to the F plus level. So I get, you know, 0 .3

added to my GPA. So well done,

Steve, you didn't fail. You got an F plus. Yes. So forgiveness.

Yes. The gospel ought to drive us to that. You know, in fact, I would say, you know, we talk about, we joke about all these how to things, how to be a better neighbor, how to do this.

If I said we're going to have a five part series on how to be a better forgiver, that would be pretty good.

That'd be pretty good. Why would that be pretty good? Isn't that just law? What's that?

Yeah. I mean, because it's going to point us towards that. It's going to say, you know what? In light of all

I've been forgiven, in light of all I have done, the reality is, and I hope you men at some point have had this experience where you just go,

I don't know how God could forgive me. If I was God, I wouldn't forgive me.

I'd go, all right, Steve, you're on double secret probation. We'll see how you do.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, off with his head, but it, and it goes back to Ephesians 40 to 32.

Well, how does God forgive us? Well, according to Psalm 103, how does he forgive us? He forgives us.

He removes our sins as far as east is from the west. And, you know, the picture there is just amazing of God literally turning his back on our sin.

And, and this is, this is how we need to forgive others.

And if we just think about that, how do I really forgive? Well, I kind of go, okay, we'll see how you do going forward.

And, you know, to some extent, I'm going to, I'm going to encourage you men in this one way. Why do you think it's easier for guys to forgive?

Do you think it's easier for guys to forgive? Because generally speaking,

I think we, we tend to, you know, be more like that. You know, thinking about one thing at a time, holding onto things is exhausting.

And it's like, you know, who has time for that? Because I need to, you know, yeah.

And so we can do things like show up on Saturday morning, all excited about Christless Christianity, and then realize, wait, we've already finished all the material, you know, that I had.

So, because we're focused on one thing at a time, just want to get through that vacation.

Just want to do that. Whatever. Just want to get better. But I think this is, you know, getting back to the idea of how do we evangelize people who think they're saved?

Right? I mean, this is ultimately kind of Keith's question. How do we present the gospel in such a way that I don't necessarily, or unnecessarily offend somebody who is saved, but I also entreat them to keep on believing, to keep on pressing, to keep on growing.

And I think, you know, there's, there's the idea, you know, to tie it up with, again, with what Jonathan said.

Somebody says, well, I'm pretty much done with doctrine. I've, I've learned all the theology there is to know.

That is just a mind -boggling claim. When you think about men like Goodwin and, and,

I mean, Owen and all these men who wrote thousands and thousands and thousands of pages because they didn't have the internet, because they, you know, um, didn't have access to all the things that we have.

But was it because they were, they, they had learned everything? Or was it because they knew that they were in the process of learning and growing and they were sharing what they learned as they went?

And, you know, I think, if I said to your brother -in -law, okay, well,

I'll tell you what, why don't we meet next Saturday? And why don't you just produce, like, between now and then, maybe about 100 pages of theology.

like, let's just say, you know, just pick your favorite doctrine, you know, and let's, let's just kind of see how that goes.

Um, he would look at you like you have three heads. Because what they want is essentially just the kind of the gospel.

And, you know, yeah, I understand sin. No, you don't. Yes, I understand what

Jesus did. No, you don't. I bet you can't even tell me who he is. I mean, there's a shocking, you know, for example, here's a shocker.

I went to church the other day. You know what they told me? They told me that Jesus is eternal, that there was never a time that he didn't exist.

Can you believe that? And your friend would probably say, well, yes.

Well, okay. And then they told me that, as a second person of the Trinity, that he came down and took on human flesh.

Okay. So just imagine that baby was simultaneously helpless and sustaining the universe.

Have you ever thought about that? Oh, I think about it every day. No, you don't. Right? I mean, there's so much to just ponder and to think and to learn and to just go.

It is ultimately just mind blowing. And so when people say, you know, either

I'm done with doctrine, or this is what my church does, and it doesn't sound very gospel oriented.

Well, why is that? It's because people have this idea that they can somehow contain the gospel, that they can, you know, kind of wrap their arms around it and understand it.

And I'm like, I think if you look at the scripture, I think if you look at somebody like Paul, who spent three years being taught daily, you know, there's another mind blowing thing.

Well, what exactly was it that Paul was doing, you know, while Jesus was teaching him for three years?

And then what was going on there? We'll never know, but you can only just think, why did it take so long?

I'd say basically because we're stupid. We forget things, you know, and Paul's no different than us.

But by the time that's done, you know, Paul should be saying to everybody, yeah, you know, this doctrine thing, not that big of a deal.

I got it wired. This gospel thing, it's no big deal, but that's not what he does. Instead, over and over again, whether it's in Ephesians 1, whether it's in Romans 11, he explodes in praise to God.

Why? Because he's consistently amazed by the grace of God to him in Christ Jesus.

We need to pray. Father, thank you for this morning. I thank you for these men, for their patience with me. Father, I pray that you'd forgive me for not being ready this morning.

I thank you for these men and their contributions, for the questions, for the time that we've had. I pray that you'd bless each one and help them today to serve their wives, to do the things that they've mapped out to do, and to prepare us for tomorrow, to worship you and to hear your word in Jesus name.