Recap of the trip to Salt Lake City, audio clips of angry protesters at LDS Gen Conf

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.
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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the
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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.
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Here is James White And good evening and welcome to the dividing line a special edition of the dividing line this evening live on Thursday evening
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If you're listening on Saturday Yes, we record this on Thursday evening because I'm going to be out of town on Saturday Doing a men's retreat up in Prescott, Arizona, so we thought we would take care of the dividing line early we had things we wanted to share with everybody and Had some things want to play for everybody and get a little bit of your reaction to and so that's exactly what we're going to do this evening and So we would invite your participation.
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I don't know how much interpret interpretation Participation we're going to be able to have this evening
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But we will be taking phone calls a little bit later on if time allows us to do so we just got back from our
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Semi annual outreach in Salt Lake City, Utah and over the past number of years
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That outreach has taken on a new Characteristic to it in the sense that up until two and a half three years ago we only
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Passed out tracks, and well, I'll take that back. We had done some Some work in the sense of doing some radio programs and things like that.
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That was pretty much just myself Staying later after everybody else had already left But just a couple of years ago.
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We began doing some debates on the Friday night before the the general conference the first was with a former
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Baptist who had become a Roman Catholic and then all the rest of them have been on the subject of Mormonism with Authors and professors from Brigham Young University and at this time we did a debate with Martin Tanner he's an attorney a graduate of Brigham Young Law School and He is the host of a radio program,
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I think it's on KSL now up in Salt Lake City itself and he and I had done a number of radio debates before and This discussion was on the issue of deification so that's become a part of the ministry, but the distribution of tracks and sharing with Mormons outside of The convention has changed a lot over the past number of years specifically
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What has taken place is first we had the opening of what we call the
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Megan Ackle and the Megan Ackle the Very large meeting house across the street from the north gate of Temple Square Has changed the dynamic of the ministry because up until that point of the meetings took place in the
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Mormon Tabernacle the Mormon Tabernacle was on a Back we first started this anyways was in a situation where there were only three gates that people could go through other than the leadership
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Of the church itself to get to the general conference. They had to go with the North Gate the South Gate or the
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West Gate now that then changed when they opened the
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East Gate and Then that changed when they purchased the land over there and and basically
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Found a way to get people in from at least the Joseph Smith building across the street without crossing allegedly
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Public property that whole issue is still up in the air as far as whether that's going to remain a no free speech zone but anyways
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Then at that time, you know, you could with a fairly small number of people pretty much cover all the exits in and out exits and entrances to the general conference and Certainly when we first started doing this we had many more conversations than we have over the past number of years it has
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You know, there would be some years you'd have a lot of conversations some years wouldn't have as many but certainly Say up through about 1995 or so you'd have more than I have noticed that we've had over the past eight years or so then with the opening of the meganacle things really changed because People have to get in these long lines and and the the traffic patterns are different and people are trying to you know to get to where they need to go and It's just made it very difficult especially in the morning to have meaningful conversations with folks, but we've done the best that we could and you know developed good lines to get people to stop and talk and I certainly noticed that as soon as some
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Mormons, well, they're not really Mormons. They're fundamentalist Mormons began showing up with These signs protesting the
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LDS churches stand on abortion That a lot of the conversations began to to move away from wherever they were first of all
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Wherever anyone is standing like that with a sign that Mormons Automatically just lump everybody together once you walk outside of one of the gates
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Anybody who's out there? It doesn't matter how you're dressed how you're acting what you're doing They're just gonna lump you all into one group and when it was just our group that was fine
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Because they would come out and we would be there and we would be addressed nicely Frequently dressed similar to one another we're all distributing the same literature and we'd have lots of good conversations things like that But then as I said when these people began showing up with signs
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I noticed that we really needed to move away from them. You don't get into as many conversations As we did before then as most of you know
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Starting a couple of conferences ago. We a year ago. We had Pastor Phelps as he is called show up and his protests against homosexuals and at the same time as Phelps showing up we began to see the first Street preachers these are individuals with big old signs sort of walking for spiritual laws except not quite as complex as the four spiritual laws and We noticed them and but they were sort of overshadowed that first trip
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By Phelps and his people who were just absolutely outrageous in their hateful behavior and in their un -christian behavior and things like that then
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Six months ago Phelps and his people were not there but it was the King James only street preachers who were all over the place and we report on that we had a
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Main page article with pictures the article was still there on In the
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LDS section where we talked about street abusers, and we talked about them yelling and screaming at people
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Well, they of course were back again They were there in Salt Lake City, and we are going to have on the website pictures and Probably even some
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AVI files so you can sort of see some some brief sections of the video that we took of these individuals they were back in force and Since we had dared to criticize them
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Now they had two targets. They not only had the Mormons, but they also had me
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Specifically and So they were back in force and they started the way they normally start with their street abuse and I'm gonna play some sections for you, and I recognize some of these are gonna be difficult for you to hear
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For example the first two that I'm gonna play are off of my my camera
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And this is just a little teeny tiny Canon power shot. I mean it's a Very small camera, and it takes
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AVI files And I've stripped the the sound out of an AVI file to play this for you
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But if you listen carefully you can you can certainly hear it At least maybe on the archive you can if maybe not live streaming
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But anyways this first one just gives you a little bit of taste. This is an outrageous preaching
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It's just if you know anything about Mormonism. You'll know that anyone hearing.
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This is just gonna go Okay Yeah, all right, you know a lot about we believe now.
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We have not doctored this When when I first cued this one up,
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I almost didn't play it because up and saw up in Salt Lake City the the crossing signals have a sound for people who are blind and All the way through this little clip you can hear one of these walking signals
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And we did not put it in there, but it does sound rather ironic when you put the whole thing all together here
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Let me let me show you what I'm what I'm talking about The Mormons believe in the devil's
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Doctrine that's that's one of the street preachers. He's holding a sign If I recall correctly from the
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AVI that was down at the Northwest Well, it was across the street from the northwest corner of Temple Square, so it would be the southwest corner of the the
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Megan Ackle and so he's he's Just preaching that the devil said you become a god, and yeah, there's there's there's an element of truth to that But as you can tell it's not exactly preached with a
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Lot of knowledge of of what's what's going on there now. I took my little camera up to The main section this is directly across from the north gate it would be the south entrance to the what we call the
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Megan Ackle the meeting the meeting house there and The King James only guys were already there and One of them who is one of the ringleaders?
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We we have a number of It does sound like a cuckoo clock doesn't it it I told you we did not stick it in there anyways, one of the ringleaders one of the well, he's individual that I tried to talk to you six months ago and He was the one that I mentioned six months ago was just just berating the
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Mormons and in this this Mormon girl came up to him, and he just ripped into her and When we came back from lunch
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I was actually gonna roleplay a Mormon just simply to to shred this guy because it's obvious He doesn't know anything about the
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Bible. It doesn't know anything about Mormonism and When we walked up there was a Mormon that I've talked to many many times a very well -read
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Mormon who was already doing that now I watched as a Mormon embarrassed this man Just shredded this man left him standing there without anything to say other than just go back to a couple verses
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That he that this guy had already gotten around You would think that that experience would cause you
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Maybe to have some humility Not this guy no no no I think his name's
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Ruben at least that's what I've been told his name's Ruben and He's a big guy but he's a mean nasty guy, that's just all there is to it and He was up at the
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North Gate And I didn't get my camera out in time to catch the first thing that I heard But the first thing
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I heard was we'll call him Ruben yelling at the Mormons who are streaming into the conference center
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You shouldn't be called Mormons. You should be called morons Yeah, that's what he was that's what he was screaming isn't that deep
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I mean isn't that a wonderful way to share the gospel you shouldn't be called
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Mormons You should be called morons isn't that isn't that deep and so I I managed to get my camera out right after He had made this statement, and I started it right as he said and you know why they called him
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Brigham Young and Right then I managed to get the AVI file started and here's what the rest of that clip sounds like There's there's
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Ruben now, let me play that first section once again So what he says you know why
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I call him Brigham Young because he wanted to bring them young 12 and 13 years old and that's what this is what is being yelled at these well -dressed individuals who are
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Carrying their quads and and their their scriptures, and they're going in to their meeting house, and here's a guy in shorts and a black t -shirt carrying a sign that has very little to do with Mormonism at all and He's screaming at these
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Mormons. You know why they called him Brigham Young Because I as they want him to bring him young All that now what kind of response is that gonna get
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I think if you recall he wanted Reaching yes, he calls that preaching yes,
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I wanted us to preach yeah Yeah, later on we'll hear them saying let you know come out of the closet
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King James White and start doing some street preaching same same guy this this whole type of of attitude
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Is what is pervasive and what these guys are doing and what kind of response?
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Do you expect to get from the Mormons you expect the Mormons to get out of the line? And come over to him and go you know
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You're right. I had never thought it could could I find out what you believe of course not and that's not what they want
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They just want people to hate them They think that when people then act react in anger or roll their eyes
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I'll say I'm being persecuted for righteousness sake. I'm good That's how these people think they're a scourge a plague on anyone who's trying to do anything up there in Salt Lake City They truly are
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And they're proud of this kind of attitude. They really are proud of that kind of attitude.
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We watched it all day long now Let me say something There is everything right within a proper context of noting the the unbiblical un -christian activities of Early Mormon Church leaders in regards to polygamy
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There is no question the polygamy was a step back From what Jesus himself had taught one man one woman together for life
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Adam and Eve Not Adam and Eve and Isabel and Janet's and everybody else
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There's no question that there was that there's plenty of things to say about Brigham Young and Joseph Smith And I think you can make a very good case that Joseph Smith was was a was sexually debauched
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No question about that But what context are you going to be able to present that in that's gonna have any meaning for anyone?
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It's not gonna have any meaning when you're standing there Dressed like you just got off of work on a dock
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With a sign that means nothing screaming at people as they walk across Into a place where they consider themselves to be going to worship
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It's absolutely positively unbelievable To to try to deal with these folks it truly truly is.
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All right. I have then what we did Excuse me. What we did is
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We had some of our new video cameras up in Salt Lake City To videotape the debate that was going to take place that evening.
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It was gonna be a long day. I mean because financial constraints primarily
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The sponsoring church up there Christ Presbyterian Church had had obtained a place the University of Utah beautiful place and one of the one of the best
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Venues we've ever done a debate and I would say very nicely set up Really really nice place to do it
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But the only way we could afford it is if we did it on Saturday night Because they didn't figure anybody would want to do anything on the
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Saturday night of conference. And so We scheduled the debate for Saturday night and a bunch of people complained and yada yada yada
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And we'll of course take that in consideration and in the future. But anyways, we're gonna be doing the debate that evening.
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So we had Our video cameras up there with us very nice video cameras excellent video cameras and and they're digital now and so We had one of the video cameras out and we had it set up over in the section.
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We had contacted the city We wanted to be able to have some place Where we could actually try to have conversations with someone without these people standing there and yelling in our ears
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It didn't work out that way, but we tried so we had contacted the city. We had taken out a protest permit We had done the things you're supposed to do
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We rendered under Caesar the things that are Caesars and all did the King James a lot of people not like that But anyway, so we had a camera set up and so what we've done is we've taken the the audio portion of that and we've put it into a file and I went through it today and and pulled out a number of little
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Clips just to give you an idea now some of these clips It sounds like a bunch of noise and that's the whole point
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Imagine yourself put yourself in the position of the Mormon you used to come out of The tabernacle in Temple Square and there were some nicely dressed individuals
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Who offered you literature they weren't yelling at you They weren't screaming at you if you actually stopped to listen to them talking to someone else long enough
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You discover that they'd studied your religion. They're carrying your scriptures. They know what you believe and they show you respect
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That's not the way it is anymore Now you feel both going in and going out that you're running the gauntlet
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You no longer feel Outside of when you're actually in the building or when you get away from Temple Square and you get into where the food places are
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You no longer feel comfortable You don't like it there. It is a poisoned atmosphere
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Here, let me give you an example of what I'm talking about Oh, wait a minute.
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Okay. Wait a minute. This isn't the preaching part here is now I this is one of there were two main people
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Who later on we're gonna hear them yelling and screaming at me and they held signs about me about King James White With quotes from letters to a
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Mormon elder. Yeah, they actually made up signs about me for this trip and They call me
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King James White King Jimmy and they're mocking me and doing all the rest of stuff and This is one of the two.
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This is a fella who? Right after I recorded what we just listened to where the guy was talking about Mormons should it's morons and bring them young and stuff like that right after that I'm holding my little teeny camera up again taking another
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AVI and we have this AVI and all of a sudden something hits my hand and the camera and of course
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I flinch, you know because you it came from behind my head and It was one of these people with one of their signs well believe it or not at the time
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I thought I Naive me. I thought oh someone wasn't watching where they're going.
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Then I saw the AVI later and I realized wrong This was very purposeful this individual a quote -unquote street preacher
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Tried to use the edge of his sign to knock the camera out of my hand And when you watch the
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AVI file, you can see him looking back to see if he was successful Well, he wasn't thankfully
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This same guy, this is this section is him yelling at our people
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And interestingly enough during this particular point in time. I'm not there. I went down to the
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South Gate and Had taken the time to sort of get away from things We had some folks distributing literature at the
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South Gate and I went down there to scan through a new farms Publication that we had just published a print one more time purchased that day because it was relevant to the debate that night and there's no way you'd ever have time to scan through something like that in With all the noise and everything's going on at the
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North Gate. So I'm not even there though You'll notice I get mentioned anyway, so here's the guy who tried to use the edge of his sign to knock the camera out of my
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Hand, he's one of the two people who stand there mocking me for 45 minutes holding signs about me but this is between he's trying to knock the camera out of my hand and then the
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Encounter later on when I am there when they pull out the signs about me So this is this is one of those quote -unquote street preachers
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That's why people got saved the last one the conference that way you guys went told half -truths and they eliminate out of nothing boys
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You guys are in direct violation of God Dr.
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James White is about to get a malpractice suit from God himself for teaching another gospel himself
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You can't win Mormons teaching from an NIB from a perverted text, and he don't even preach
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Now can you can you start tell that to this fellow doesn't like me he
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Accuses us of half -truths They've never been able to document any of those and of course we have more and more video now of exactly how they are behaving
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And then God's gonna I'm gonna get a malpractice suit from God. I'm not preaching the gospel
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And why because I use an NIV well actually I don't He you know
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Amazing thing about these men is their absolute incredible ignorance I mean, they're some of the most ignorant men of their signs have misspelled words.
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Um. It's this guy at the north side and Just to give you a background
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He was just railing on me. He's holding this was sort of a yellowish sign, and it had all these false religions on it and I even had a guy come up to me over at where we were standing and Asked me said man, you know when you walked by they this guy was going make way for Lucifer here comes
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Lucifer What's his problem, and I got a chance to tell this guy all about these people, and he just couldn't believe him He could not believe these people actually exist, but that was so they were saying make way for Lucifer That's what they're saying about me.
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Well. Here's this guy standing there with this sign And I look at it and all of a sudden
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I realized one of the one of the groups that he's he's saying is wrong Our buddhists yes, bu dd is ts buddhists and We had a good time with that is is that a springtime group when when trees are budding just what is it?
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We know of course he meant buddhists bu dd h is ts but he couldn't spell it right and later we
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Think thing is later. We walk by him, and I just couldn't help it, but yeah, I was sick and tired of these people
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I said by the way It's he misspelled buddhists and His responses yeah,
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I did on purpose. I Thought yeah, should
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I stop and ask him exactly what your purpose was there, but I realized
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I Probably couldn't handle the inane response that I would get back from that so I just you just you just walk by and you go
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Ah whatever Oh Anyways the ignorance these folks. I you know I work on the new
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American Standard. He doesn't know that Where are we using the NIV I?
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You just sit there and shake your head, so we've got a false gospel because we've got the
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NIV and Just just absolutely
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Positively unbelievable this is this is you know once we get the pictures up. You'll be able to see this guy He was wearing a wine -colored
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Shirt and you know we'll point him out. We'll probably Attach this clip to it so you can you can listen to him
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You know railing away and and so on and so forth But this is this is the kind of stuff that we were putting up with let's listen to What are we gonna?
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Actually, we've got a couple minutes for the next next break, so let's let's listen to another another clip here I It goes on from there, but it's difficult to hear let me move it down a little bit for this
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I You can sort of hear it in the background there actually hear a number of them, and it was this cacophony of Wine W I any wine -colored shirt come on give me a break here
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There's this cacophony of yelling and and you listen to some of it Isaiah was a prophet, but Isaiah couldn't save you
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Moses was a prophet But Moses couldn't save you and again you have to try to put yourself in the shoes of the
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Mormons Who are walking by looking at these people going? Where did they land from I?
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Mean how can you ever expect any Mormon person to give you the time of day?
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When you obviously haven't given them the time of day you don't know anything about they believe or or showing them any respect at all absolutely positively
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Amazing it it truly truly is let's listen to another section Okay, all right all right,
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I gotta I gotta set this up. I didn't write down what all these cuts were the the lunch rush hits and it's
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Just just thousands of Mormons, I mean thousands of hungry Mormons heading for Crossroads Plaza and these the
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ZCMI Center in downtown Salt Lake. I mean I would imagine the the restaurants do 30 % of their entire year's money on those two conference weekends.
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I bet you they do It's just a zoo as they head to go get their food, and so here comes 30 ,000
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Mormons coming across the street And I had a feeling we knew they had some signs because we had seen them wrapped up and we had seen letters to a
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Mormon elder we had seen my name we knew it was coming so as soon as the big rush hits all of a sudden the
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Reuben guy in black and then the guy that we just listened to railing at us about the malpractice
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They whip out these two signs about me now the signs weren't that bad in fact.
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I found it absolutely I Don't know I Very strange because the quotations they used from letters to a
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Mormon elder were accurate There was a quotation from letters to a Mormon elder I said the Holy Spirit has never given anyone a testimony that Joseph Smith was a prophet and I contrasted
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Christianity and Mormonism is the difference between monotheism versus polytheism and All those things are true.
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The only thing I can figure out is they Somehow think that I'm ashamed of what I've said in my books and I'm not
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They don't seem to understand that the issue is not That Mormonism is right.
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It's very clearly wrong. It's how you communicate that to Mormons. That's the issue
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They don't know how to do it. I Mean, they're right that Mormonism is wrong They just don't know why and they don't seem to care to learn from anyone how to do it
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That that's the issue so they had these signs, but then they started mocking as you can listen to they're mocking me.
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They're just I Didn't I'm not gonna play this clip, but there's one point where they're saying
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That man's so intelligent his brain so big his hair fell out I mean at that point
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I said to riches these guys could go on the road. I mean, they're they're they're hilarious but That's the clip.
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We're gonna play and this is called a teaser See, we're gonna take our break and you and if you go away if you touch that dial
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There's not dialing computer But if you disconnect you're not going to be able to hear that particular section which are going to play
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Right after this break be right back It's all works righteousness, you know
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Can I manufacture grace myself Some religious place by weeping hard on your face
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Some dead saints, you know The history of the
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Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith Once the core of the Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine in his book the
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God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme
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Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute
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James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith
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Dr. J Adams says I lost sleep over this book. I simply couldn't put it down James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates
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This is no book for casual reading. There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words
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The God who justifies by dr. James White get your copy today at a omen org
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An easy way
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It's a journey to the son And welcome back to dividing line we are reporting on our
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Interesting experiences in Salt Lake City and as I said before the break the fellow who
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Wore the wine colored that's not wine. What is that? It's this it's not really. Is that the
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ASU color type thing? What was Colors, I'm not really good at colors. Anyways He the same guy we listened to before about the malpractice suit he and Ruben the dude in the shorts with the black shirt and There they've whipped out the
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King James white signs and here's here's what we listened to for 45 minutes
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By his book, but go ahead and spend your money on his book. He won't give it to you free.
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He's got the truth and the Bible does say Free you give it away
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That's what Jesus Christ says But if you want to know the truth about your cult in church, you need to read all about James White Oh We're alive today
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I Am watching the
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I'm watching the reaction of people in the channel and that's pretty much the reaction of all the Mormons Can you imagine what the
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Mormons are thinking while this is going on? They're looking at these people now what I didn't mention to you is
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Let me let me see if I can find this this one kid. There's this one kid in a blue jacket and And You know,
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I just felt sorry for him I Mean this this kid is just I mean he is not
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The sharpest knife in the drawer. You know what? I mean? I the term dimble becomes to mind here we're just not running on all eight cylinders and he's been sucked in by these guys and he thinks this is just wonderful and He's one you can hear going my favorite person's
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Gail Kiplinger There it is there it is
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I love Gail Kiplinger It's Rippling er, oh
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Now see you're all going. Nah, come on, but you gotta realize this kid put on a skullcap to make him bald to look like me and So he stand next to these other dudes there to yell in this stuff
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And this kids got this bald cap on and he doesn't even know what
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Gail Rippling er's name is I thank you. Oh man, oh
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Can you imagine what the Mormons are thinking here? I mean, they're just going you've got to be kidding me this this is this is
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Joseph and Brigham on the Jerry Jerry Springer show. Yeah, these guys look like refugees in the
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Jerry Springer show I mean either one of them could be the bouncers on the Jerry Springer show Especially the
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Reuben dude the the guy in the black if that's his name. He looks just like those bouncers in the
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Jerry Springer show Absolutely Simply amazing.
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Let's listen to some more of this. So wonderfully deep stuff Now do you hear that he is please come to the debates they knew about the debates
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And in this section they're taught they make some comments about the debates And if you heard that but he's going come out of the closet
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King James become a preacher That means
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Now never hear that last section take his literature He was upset because they only passed out a few pieces of literature and we're talking about The fact that we mentioned in the web article that when these people around Mormons will not take tracks they don't want to they just automatically assume everybody is
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Is all in the same group and one of the worst things that I thought other than just the the complete
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You know idiocy of these people were Portraying the Mormons was as we're gonna hear a little later on.
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They were dishonest. They started saying we're with them Now one little section here. This is This is a little clip this is only seven seconds long
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There are some Mormon girls and Of course, we we mentioned six months ago what these people did to some of these little
39:29
Mormon girls And it was disgusting But there's some Mormon girls watching these guys and you know
39:35
These guys the cap on that makes them look bald and they're sitting there yelling and what they're can you imagine? What does a
39:40
Mormon think King James White is I mean a white Bible? Is that what what are these people talking about?
39:48
I mean they really this is the Jerry Springer show as far as they're concerned but there's these girls that came up and We also noticed in the video some some missionaries would like stand in front of them and get pictures taken just like it
39:59
You know, hey, look You know sort of like when you have pictures taken in front of the the ape display at the at the zoo, you know
40:08
That circus is in town. Yeah, they they they've showed up outside the thing here well some of these girls were doing the same thing and I want you to listen to the comment that we found on the on on the video
40:26
Did you catch that let me play this middle section again They look like idiots
40:34
Well, you know out of the mouths of babes Yeah, that that's that's exactly what they what they look like.
40:40
There's no two ways about it. I mean you look at the videos this stuff It's absolutely incredible. Well, we continue on Oh Now did you catch that I had not
41:02
I had not caught that so just now he wants to take Joseph Smith's place This bald guy right there
41:09
King James White wants to take Joseph Smith's place Okay, right here at the gate want you to follow him
41:21
He wants you to follow his doctor. He wants you to get right with God James White Thank you guys tonight.
41:31
He's gonna rip your butts. He said Thank you guys tonight and show you guys
41:41
That's right I Noticed something that man.
41:53
This is the guy in the maroon shirt is the actual color. Thank you very much And he's losing his voice
42:01
Now, you know Gail Rippling or would undoubtedly come up with something interesting about that So would text Mars, but anyways,
42:07
I guess when King James only people lose their voice that's not relevant. But anyways He's lying.
42:14
I never said any of those things that he's attributing to me and he knows it He has absolutely positively
42:20
No problem whatsoever Lying through his teeth these quote -unquote street preachers have no problem lying as long as it promotes their cause
42:47
Please take these people They will put your Mormons in your place
42:54
Maybe he'll give you a Mormon discount since the church is already pleased to Maybe I'll have compassion
43:01
Give you a two -for -one discount I Help him out guys
43:24
King James white that was the the last little little section there. Don't worry.
43:29
There's only one left Because you're probably going stop Stop, I I certainly
43:35
You know after watching in the second time It wasn't enjoyable the first time but it was it was pretty incredible This last clip is a section where these men are simply lying.
43:45
They lied before But here you can see exactly what they want to do And you again one of the reasons we're doing this.
43:56
Let me just mention There are probably some some good people who might not like my
44:01
Calvinism or something like that But recognize that we're doing a good work Anyways, who may be sending money to the sponsoring churches of these organizations?
44:11
some of these people work with street preachers org And there is a church in Salt Lake City that was putting all these people up What was the name of that?
44:23
Do you remember the name of that place? I think it was Bible Baptist I know as a King James only Baptist Church up there.
44:29
I'm not sure if his Bible. I think Bible Baptist sounds right anyways We are encouraging folks
44:35
Find out if your church supports these people If you consider this preaching if you consider this
44:42
Christian activity then keep supporting them But if you recognize what any rational person can recognize in listening just to what and we have you we don't even have the videos here
44:51
I'm just showing you just little clips Then you realize these people are not deserving of a dime of God's people's monies
44:59
They they are individuals who have absolutely positively no sense of Biblical calling they don't understand biblical truth
45:09
They are they are mockers. I now understand the meaning of the the mockery of fools from the book of Proverbs this is very very much about it and so One of the reasons we're showing you they're playing these things so you can you can hear it from their own mouths
45:25
Because we have the video of them saying these things then notice what they're doing here. Listen to what they're gonna say I Catch that catch that we are all together.
45:52
We're working here together You heard me say, oh no, they're not now we're bearing false witness listen to what they said again
46:17
We're working with these guys we're with these guys That's a lie, he knows it's a lie he knows we would never for a second
46:31
It Associate ourselves these individuals and It's very clear that they have no concern about truth.
46:41
That's just all there is to it. And so they need to be They need to hear from the people of God And I think that it would be perfectly proper
46:52
Since some of these people are associated with street preachers org To contact street preachers org and say what
46:59
I heard on the dividing line is absolutely reprehensible and I'm gonna make sure that my church never considers supporting anything like this and I think you should repent of your activities and The sponsoring church up there that put these people up same thing
47:15
Now there is one individual and when I when one of the street preacher people contacted me
47:20
I sent him back an email filled with pictures documenting these things and I did include a picture of one individual
47:27
I don't know who he is. He was wearing a green jacket. He was an older individual sort of gray or blonde hair and I even took the time to get a picture of him from our our video that we have of what was going on and I sent it to the head of this organization.
47:46
I said now to be fair There is one individual that to my knowledge and I wasn't there the whole time but to my knowledge
47:53
I never heard this individual address us directly. I Never heard him say anything about us to anyone else
48:01
He never engaged in the in the mockery and in his preaching
48:06
I never heard him say things like Mormons should be called morons or bring them young or or any of that kind of stuff
48:16
Everything I heard from him at least and you've heard what we're listening to here.
48:22
I mean, it's not like you can You can't even listen to a lot of this. I mean it's a cacophony of competing sounds if you're walking through one of these areas you're just gonna hear bits and pieces and and Snippets and one person's gonna be talking over another person and all all you hear is this
48:42
Massive amount of noise and you just want to get out of there. You just you just want to get away as much as you can
48:49
Anyways in all that I heard of this man's preaching. I never heard him use that kind of language
48:58
He always to my to what I heard stuck to a simple gospel message
49:05
He said things about works and trusting in Christ It's not that he really had a message that would resonate with Mormons most
49:12
Mormons would listen what he was saying go so but Despite all that.
49:19
I want to be fair and say there was one individual Who as far as I could tell was was fairly?
49:27
You know controlled along those lines. He seemed fairly Fairly stable the others were not now to my knowledge.
49:36
He did not reprimand any of those individuals, and he should have So he's he's not blameless, but I just didn't hear him do those things so that's what we had to put up with And you may say well, how do you stand there and listen to that kind of harangue?
49:54
It wasn't fun I'm sort of glad that some of the guys weren't there during the worst part of it
50:01
My son was there, and and he just couldn't believe it. He wanted to go over and and introduce himself to them forcefully, but he didn't and It wasn't enjoyable like I said
50:12
I now know what the the preaching of fools is all about there's no two ways about it Any one of these individuals alone would not be able to even begin to hold his own in any type of debate argument
50:27
Study of Scripture anything, but when they get together in a group. Oh my we are truly brave aren't we?
50:34
It was difficult, but one of the things that I kept in the back of my mind was well Tonight there is going to be and we estimate about 400.
50:42
We had about 400 people and They were at a debate on Deification where I was debating
50:52
Martin Tanner on that particular subject, and I had an opportunity there to present the truth about God and Contrast that with the teachings of Mormon Church, and I was going to have 400 people listen to what
51:05
I said for about two hours and They were going to walk away from there with something meaningful
51:14
And I knew that these men will never have that opportunity They will never stand before a group of people and Have the opportunity that I had because there's not a
51:25
Mormon in the world that would for a second Put up with that kind of behavior, and they know that in fact interestingly enough
51:35
Four of their main leaders including both of the men who were doing the mocking
51:40
We were just listening to came to the bait in fact Right as we were putting the camera up unfortunately we don't have this on tape, but right as we were putting the camera up they were talking about the debates and The Rubin fellow looked right at me and said oh
51:56
We know where the debates gonna be and we're gonna be there, and you ain't seen nothing yet Now they're standing there mocking me holding signs, and he says you ain't seen nothing yet.
52:07
Well they came They sat they were silent and they left they didn't do anything
52:14
Which I'm thankful for But they obviously want us to think that they were going to because isn't that how terrorists work terrorists work along those lines they want you to to be afraid and Of course we had to take steps
52:33
Just to make sure that if they did get up that they were going to be policed there who were going to escort them out and You know that was they want to do everything they possibly can to end our outreach to the
52:47
Mormon people They are the greatest allies the Mormons have ever had Think about that one for a moment.
52:54
It's it's a pretty amazing thing to think of So that's what allowed me to stand there and to listen to all this and to go.
53:02
Yeah, okay, all right well What can I say? You know you can't reason with these people
53:09
They won't listen to what you say when you provide refutation of something that they say
53:15
They don't listen to it. They don't respond rationally There's no reasoning with these people.
53:22
They they don't have reasoning capacities so Why even respond to him it gets you absolutely nowhere?
53:30
This is this is one of those situations do not answer a fool according to his folly lest you think of self -wise
53:36
This is where you you have to realize hey this man is not listening this man cannot hear what
53:42
I have to say and Therefore why worry about it? You just know that and and you deal with it from there
53:49
So that's we put up with when we come. I'm not sure when we can take our break here because we're a little bit ahead but on the flip side of the break what
53:59
I'm gonna do is I'm gonna play for you a The cross -examination section from the debate that evening and You can download this from our mp3 page which mr.
54:12
Pierce has been working so very very hard on and He's got it really
54:19
Spiffed up nicely, and we had the mp3s up. I think it wasn't wasn't it Monday something like that I mean
54:24
Monday or Tuesday We I think it's Tuesday we had the mp3s and the audio files up and and this is available on video you can order the video of this the whole nine yards and So this is just a little section of it.
54:37
You're gonna want to get the whole thing I'm not gonna play the whole thing It's called a teaser, but this is the the cross -examination period where we are discussing the issue of deification and again
54:49
Here, I'm I'm debating a man with a doctorate in jurisprudence. He is an attorney and We are discussing deification and It always is interesting to me that there are those individuals
55:01
They're you know the Roman Catholics or the Mormons or others. It'll say oh well. You know he ain't no real scholar
55:07
You know oh well. Yeah, he's taught for a long time, and yeah, he's written 18 books, but he's no real scholar Well, you know
55:12
I'm one of those folks that sort of figures scholarship proves itself. You know remember
55:19
Forrest Gump Stupid is a stupid does well. I think scholarship is a scholarship does And so if people judge scholarship on the basis of where you went to school just what's on your diploma, okay fine great
55:31
But I'm one of those folks that sort of figures if you can't teach your way out of a paper bag you're probably not much Of a scholar you know if you can't communicate
55:38
You can't string words together in a meaningful fashion. You're probably not much of a scholar So I I think that scholarship is judged by what you do with it not by the name on a piece of paper and So when we come back, we're gonna listen to the cross -examination section and let you judge for yourself how that particular
55:58
Encounter went here on the dividing line. We'll be right back Today So many stars strong and true
56:14
Quickly fall away What is dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen, but free a new cult secularism false prophecy scenarios
56:24
No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called
56:29
Calvinism He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant in his book the potter's freedom
56:38
James White replies to dr. Geisler but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply It is a defense of the very principles upon which the
56:46
Protestant Reformation was founded Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate
56:54
James White Masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme Calvinism Defines what the
57:00
Reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the Reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture The potter's freedom a defense of the
57:09
Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen But free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen org
57:17
Incorporating the most recent research and solid biblical truth Letters to a Mormon elder by James White is a series of personal letters written to a fictional
57:25
Mormon missionary Examining the teaching and theology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints The book brings a relational approach to material usually presented in textbook style
57:36
James White draws from his extensive apologetics ministry to thousands of Mormons in presenting the truth of Christianity with well -defined arguments
57:45
James White provides readers with insight and understanding into the Book of Mormon the prophecies visions and teachings of Joseph Smith the
57:52
Theological implications of the doctrines of Mormonism and other major historical issues relevant to the claims of the
57:59
LDS Church This marvelous study is a valuable text for Christians who talk with Mormons and is an ideal book to be read by Mormons Letters to a
58:08
Mormon elder get your copy today in the Mormonism section of our bookstore at a omen org
58:15
Here I stand, on the ones who are all delivered faith, it's all above His holy name
58:30
All righty this section takes a little bit over 30 minutes So I'm not sure where you get all the way through it, but let's go ahead and get started with the cross -examination
58:37
This is the debate that evening at the University of Utah Now we have questions from Dr.
58:43
Tanner for Dr. White The first question
58:55
I would have here is since most of the new encyclopedias reference works on early
59:03
Christianity now include articles on deification Do you still believe that there is no such thing as a doctrine of deification in early
59:15
Christianity? I have never said there is I have never said there is not a doctrine of deification in early
59:21
Christianity In fact I was taught the doctrine of theosis as a seminary student at Fuller Theological Seminary It was presented, it's presented in all the standard works, it's found in the
59:32
Lauderette, Schopf and the others My issue of course this evening is not that there was not a doctrine of theosis but what it meant to those who taught it
59:42
Okay, fair enough Do you have an explanation for why it is, at least recently, only the evangelical works on Christianity that omit references to deification?
59:55
Well you'd have to give us some specifics on evangelical references I can't explain what you see as a trend
01:00:02
I included an entire chapter on the subject in my book Is the More of My Brother As I mentioned to you
01:00:08
Kenneth Scott Lauderette and others do have sections on it So I don't know what you're referring to when you say that there is no reference to it
01:00:16
Well maybe I can ask it the other way Can you think of an evangelical Christian that has written articles and does believe in deification in the sense that men can become gods?
01:00:28
Well again in the sense that the early church fathers meant it, yes Because anyone who believes that man is a spiritual being and that it is his goal to be united with Christ I think anyone here who is familiar, for example, with the writings of Jonathan Edwards is aware of the fact that Edwards spoke very much of the union of the elect with God in heaven and the ever increasing relationship that exists between them
01:00:52
So much so that some people criticize him for that particular belief And so I think you would have to include
01:00:59
Edwards as a rather major writer at that particular point But again I think it goes to what you understand this doctrine to mean and the context in which it was first enunciated
01:01:14
You don't understand the Latter Day Saints or any other brand of Christianity to believe that humans on the earth who are
01:01:26
Christians or not are somehow gods now, do you? Are gods now? You don't believe that anyone has ever taught that, do you?
01:01:33
Not in the sense of God being God, no
01:01:40
God's an embryo was the terminology that I quoted from the sources Correct, and that is what
01:01:48
Latter Day Saints believe as well as early Christians Although rather than the word embryo they use the word prototype at least as the
01:01:56
Erdman's publication has translated it Is that a question?
01:02:02
No, the question is, there was no question there If we read, as I believe we do in Ephesians that we will grow into mature manhood until we reach the stature of Christ in all his completeness
01:02:24
If we have the word completeness in there, what does that leave of an unbridgeable gulf?
01:02:36
The term is Pleromatos to Christou, the fullness of Christ and therefore you would have to understand what
01:02:43
Paul is referring to there It seems that if you're asking me what I believe the fullness of Christ refers to it does not mean my ceasing to be a man and becoming what
01:02:53
Christ is in his nature but instead as Paul teaches the Holy Spirit is active in our life conforming us to the what?
01:03:01
To the image of Christ, to the likeness of Christ The whole purpose that Paul says in Romans 8 is that we are being conformed to the likeness of Christ We are being made
01:03:12
Christ -like and that's certainly what Christians believe So do you take the idea that someone would be
01:03:21
Christ by nature to be a statement that they were a God now? I would like to know what you are trying to differentiate by your use of that term nature
01:03:33
Are you talking about created versus uncreated or something else? The Apostle Paul is very clear that Jesus Christ is extremely unique and he differentiates between Jesus Christ and any other being and any other created person and therefore
01:03:47
I allow him to keep that distinction when he talks about the fullness of Christ This fullness of Christ is within the context of the discussion here of the work of the
01:03:57
Holy Spirit in the body in conforming us to Christ's image and so therefore I would understand that as it continues on in verse 15 talking about in truth and so on and so forth growing up into Christ as our head
01:04:11
We don't become the head of the church or anything like that Do you take
01:04:17
Athanasius to be an orthodox early Christian father? Yep, in most things yes
01:04:23
Do you believe his quote where he says God became man so that man may become
01:04:29
God? In the context in which he stated it which for Athanasius as I've attempted to point out was of a belief in the
01:04:37
God being uncreated, man being created and therefore man becoming
01:04:42
God does not mean we become God as God is a God We are becoming God in the sense as spiritual creatures we are united with Christ and partake of the divine nature
01:04:52
Well in a sense I think that any other kind of reference would be to a straw man
01:05:00
Do you take it that somehow Latter Day Saints or other branches of Christianity believe something different that the faithful Christians will become
01:05:13
God's some other way than the way that you've described?
01:05:18
Yes, in fact as this publication I read from Farms points out the author there demonstrates the difference in the means of exaltation in Mormonism and the means of divinization in the early church fathers that's one of the differences that he cites is that the very means by which this takes place is different and of course he himself points out the vast chasm that exists between God and man on the level of ontology as well
01:05:43
So yes I believe as I read from the article that for example celestial marriage is required for divinization in LDS theology and I am not aware of any group that would for example make that reference certainly
01:05:58
Athanasius didn't That would be true But do you believe that any early church fathers who are orthodox had a view that men cannot become
01:06:20
God's? There were a number who did not address it in that language at all I'm not aware of Tertullian addressing it certainly
01:06:27
Ignatius did not It wasn't an issue for them as I've been trying to point out the context in which they're even using the language is not a protestant
01:06:36
Mormon context it is the context of the paganism of their day that viewed man as a mere creature not as a spiritual being and therefore their emphasis is that salvation is real something really happens to the person who is saved there is a glorious future it's not as the
01:06:56
Greeks would say drink and be merry for tomorrow we die there is something very special about mankind
01:07:02
So as to this topic here can men become God's? You would answer yes In the context in which you're talking about the early church or the context of Mormonism my whole point has been that the context of the early church is vastly different from the context of Mormonism since Mormonism says that God himself became a man and that we are of the same species as God the answer to that of course would be no because God has eternally been
01:07:28
God and we have not been eternally God and will not eternally be God in the context of the early church fathers we are spiritual creatures and as such are united with God in their language then we can affirm that assertion
01:07:39
Well I am not asserting that Protestants are Mormons or Mormons are
01:07:45
Catholics or Mormons are Protestants there are some distinctions but I'm glad that we can both agree that in a certain sense men can become
01:07:55
God's which was the issue of our debate tonight Can men become
01:08:05
God's? Apparently Reverend White thinks they can in a certain context and Latter Day Saints believe it as well
01:08:11
Is that a question? Would you agree? No, I think we're mixing context here obviously
01:08:18
I do not believe that I would engage in this debate So you don't believe then that men can become
01:08:23
God's? In the LDS context, no In the Protestant context, yes And again, the only people who utilize that language are individuals who are working in an apologetic situation where they are dealing with individuals who do not believe that men were truly spiritual beings and that therefore they did not believe that it would be even rational that God would enter into the physical creation so as to redeem something as worthless as man
01:08:47
In that context, to emphasize the meaning of glorification I can understand the terminology that they utilized, yes
01:08:54
And I am not here to somehow say that you believe deification to be the same thing as any other person in this room or as any
01:09:05
Latter Day Saints or as any of the Church Fathers You said earlier that you disagree with some of their statements but I would take it then that in a certain sense you would agree with Latter Day Saints that men can become
01:09:21
God's although you think the process and the result is different No, I think I've been very, very clear in stating so far that the
01:09:28
LDS context is so completely foreign to anything that could be understood biblically or anything that could be understood in early
01:09:36
Church history as to put it into a context that the words now communicate something else
01:09:44
As I've said, frequently, repetitively for an early Church Father who believed that God has eternally been
01:09:50
God to say that men can become God in the context in which they spoke was one thing For Joseph Smith to say that men can become
01:09:57
God that we need to learn how to dwell in everlasting burnings as God himself once did is something completely different I think most folks can see the vast difference between those two statements
01:10:07
So I would not say that in the LDS context I would agree at all But in a
01:10:13
Protestant context you would Well, I came here tonight to debate the concept of can men become
01:10:18
God's Apparently you came here to debate LDS doctrine That's interesting
01:10:29
What did you come here tonight to debate? I came here to debate the topic of on the thing there it says a
01:10:35
Protestant LDS debate and here at the University of Utah I think everyone, including those who are outside the temple today at the conference knows that when a
01:10:45
Mormon apologist and a Protestant apologist get together to debate that particular statement that the issue is going to be defined by the fundamental differences that separate us and those fundamental differences are on the nature of God and what it means when we even talk about gods and so I think the meaning of the debate and the purpose of the debate is very, very clear
01:11:05
I don't think anyone was confused about it before we came here Do you believe that the
01:11:10
Son has the full nature of God within him? Eternally And do you believe that certain
01:11:17
Christians will grow until they reach the stature of Christ in all his completeness?
01:11:24
Actually the term is again as I mentioned a few moments ago Pleromatos the fullness of Christ which in the context of Ephesians 4 .13
01:11:32
is not talking about the nature of Christ that is somehow communicated to believers but the work of the
01:11:38
Holy Spirit within them where the fullness of God's work is accomplished within them to where they are conformed to his image
01:11:45
Do you believe that in the Bible all references to God's plural are references to idols?
01:11:52
Primarily you'd have to be specific the vast majority of them are There are a few places in Psalm 82
01:11:59
Psalm 82 .6 where the context makes it very clear that we are talking about human judges for the very next word the very next verse says you shall die like men and fall like anyone of the princes and the preceding verses establish the context that these were individuals if I can answer the question
01:12:14
Well I asked about Psalm 82 not Psalm 86 I said 82 .6 sir Well I'm talking about Psalm 82 .1
01:12:22
Yes God presides in the divine council in the midst of the gods adjudicates
01:12:28
Do you think that's a reference to idols? No, as I was just mentioning Psalm 82 specifically
01:12:35
I looked at verse 6 but the entire Psalm does mention this Psalm 82 is about human judges because it says verse 2 which always follows after verse 1
01:12:44
How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked vindicate the weak and fabulous all is a command to human judges in the
01:12:52
Old Testament context Do justice to the afflicted and destitute even in Mormon theology I have been told many many times that the other gods allegedly exist and have nothing to do with this planet and yet here you have commands to these gods to do justice here upon this planet that obviously indicates that these are the judges of Israel who standing in the place of God using
01:13:12
God's law are to judge as God would have them to judge Let's see if you think that the
01:13:21
Good News Bible quotation which says that God presides in the heavenly council in the assembly of gods is a reference to earthly beings
01:13:31
Well I work on the New American Standard Bible which says God takes a stand in his own congregation he judges in the midst of the rulers and again
01:13:38
I prefer translating the Bible within its own context and that context indicates in light of the command to vindicate the weak and the fabulous etc.
01:13:49
etc. and then the statement in verse 7 nevertheless you will die like men and fall like anyone of the princes that this is a reference to human judges and any other understanding of Psalm 82 is to rip it out of its context and not see it in its fullness and that about is my turn
01:14:09
We will now have cross examination from Dr. White to Dr. Tanner Dr.
01:14:24
Tanner do you agree with the publication that I cited initially Achieving a Celestial Marriage from the
01:14:30
LDS Church in regards to its teaching that God became God by obedience to law
01:14:36
Yes I do I have no reason to disbelieve that So do you believe that God is
01:14:41
God by nature or did God obtain the status of Godhood I believe that the answer to that question is not found in the
01:14:53
Bible it doesn't say that in the Bible that God is God by nature or how he got there it does say from everlasting to everlasting there have been a number of different interpretations about what that means
01:15:08
I'll leave it there I didn't fully understand so did he obtain the position in light of LDS revelation did
01:15:17
God obtain his position as God I think that there are latter day saints who would take both positions on that I don't know that there is any hard and fast
01:15:29
LDS doctrine that one would have to believe myself I think it's an open question but I don't have any problem with the idea that has been expressed are you familiar with any early church father especially amongst those you've cited which would include
01:15:45
Irenaeus Athanasius Augustine who believed that God became
01:15:50
God by obedience to law no that is not a subject or a question that they addressed at all they didn't discuss that did any of those early church fathers say that God had eternally been
01:16:03
God and that God was in fact completely different than man yes and I think
01:16:10
LDS would agree with that you've taken the position here today that LDS somehow don't believe that God is different by nature from the rest of us he certainly is he is
01:16:23
God now we are mere mortals so you believe that nature and position are the same thing well let me change the question you have said that we are of the same genus species as God do you agree with the statement that we are gods in embryo what
01:16:44
I quoted was Paul who said that and he used the greek phrase genos which is the same one genus species we are his offspring yes
01:16:57
I believe that to be true that we are gods in embryo yes that's also a quotation from the early church fathers they believed that we were gods in prototype they didn't use the word embryo like latter day saints they used the word prototype so if we are gods in embryo as you just said then is it not the case that we share the same nature as God since he also is
01:17:20
God well in a sense we share the same nature as God as we learn in the new testament we didn't share in a sense his same nature we would not be said to be his children in the new testament are we incomplete of the same nature as God absolutely not no one would take that position wouldn't you agree that the lord
01:17:45
Jesus said that to become the children of God we have to believe in Jesus Christ yes why would we have to become the children of God if we all are the children of God by nature well there's a difference between what we have been brought into the world as children of God through the fall of Adam and what we have the potential to be if you have a child you probably have children
01:18:12
I'm sure you do we've talked about that many times your child has to a certain degree your nature as a child but he also has tremendous potential and as he or she grows up he can attain more and more of your nature as he does so would you agree with Joseph Smith that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all
01:18:34
I would believe along with Joseph Smith along with many catholic and orthodox scholars and many jewish scholars who believe that the beginning of genesis speaks of a creation not out of nothing but out of existing elements and matter and I would also agree with many of the early christian church fathers that there was a pre -existence of humans could you explain what
01:19:02
Zechariah 12 .1 says where Jehovah creates the spirits of men well I think you have to do what you asked us to do earlier and that is to read the entire bible in context it does indeed talk about that in Zechariah it does indeed at the beginning of genesis talk about a creation out of pre -existing matter exactly how we are to meld those two together
01:19:30
I don't know I do know that there are many old testament scriptures that do talk about a pre -existence of man and that God knew about us from the beginning as a matter of fact one of the great doctrines of Calvin and of Luther that many here today believe is that from beginning
01:19:52
God knew what would happen with all of us he knew about all creation from the beginning to the end certainly in that sense even in a protestant context we have all existed for all time
01:20:07
God didn't at one point come up with some new knowledge or new idea even from a protestant context about humans he knew of our existence forever and ever and ever in that sense even in a protestant context we have always existed and always will are you saying there is no difference between the assertion that we pre -existed as spirit children in a heavenly realm and the reformed understanding that God by his decree forms all things works all things after the counsel of his will and therefore knows
01:20:38
I'm not sure if you're referring to the term for know or just what it is but are you saying there is no difference
01:20:44
I did not say there was no difference so what passages would you refer to that would indicate to you that the bible teaches that men existed in a spiritual form prior to their existence upon the earth
01:20:59
I would point to the beginning of Jeremiah where it talks about Jeremiah being known to God before I would also talk about the reference in the new testament to the blind man where Jesus is asked whether the blind man or his parents sinned that he was born blind that has to be some kind of a reference to a pre -existence in which in some kind of a personal form they existed in Jeremiah 1 .5
01:21:30
when it says before I formed you in the womb I knew you and before you were born I consecrated you I have appointed you a prophet of the nations why would you not believe that the parallel in the
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Hebrew of knew is I consecrated you and I appointed you a prophet of the nations why do you believe that that requires
01:21:47
Jeremiah to have existed for God's sovereign decree to take place you don't have to believe that he existed but that is a clear reference in the way that most
01:21:58
Jews who have read this passage and who have written about it believe that many
01:22:04
Jews believe in a pre -existence many Christians who have looked at that subject believe in a pre -existence as well some do not if you would choose not to that's your prerogative so in John chapter 9 could you not also understand that this is simply a reference to God's sovereign decree that this man is in light of Exodus chapter 4 where God makes the eye blind or the tongue dumb that this man was born that way so that he might glorify
01:22:30
God and his healing at the hands of Jesus Christ that is one possible reading without question there are many many ways that people can interpret the scriptures which is why we have so many different Christian denominations my understanding was in your presentation you said that the reformers
01:22:48
John Calvin and Martin Luther really began emphasizing this gulf existing between God and man and yet I read from Irenaeus in the just one sentence prior to that citation that you gave where he specifically utilizes that very same language how could
01:23:05
Irenaeus speak of this massive difference between the uncreated God and the created man when
01:23:11
Irenaeus lived a good 1300 years prior to the birth of John Calvin I didn't say it didn't exist before Calvin and Luther I said that they brought it to the fore they are the ones who really are the ones that began to emphasize that doctrine if that's not what
01:23:29
I said that's the way it is there were statements about that earlier that was certainly not a major emphasis but in protestant doctrine it has definitely become a major one would you agree with the
01:23:44
Lutheran scholar Betz who you cited earlier in reflections on Mormonism that Joseph Smith's view of God was naive no
01:23:50
I would not I think that for his day and his background and his knowledge and the information that he had he had quite an amazing knowledge of God however it is true that he did not have the works and the writings that you have and that I have to study so I guess in that context you could say that he was naive in the sense that they weren't available but based on what he had available
01:24:19
I would not care to use the word naive is Yaroslav Pelikan in error when he specifically insists in discussing theosis that the other church fathers were avoiding saying that deification made a human being
01:24:33
God by nature I think that's a broad oversimplification
01:24:38
I think there are many many different views from many many different Christian church fathers some of whom you would find orthodox some of whom
01:24:48
I would in some context and the same ones I would not and you would not in others and so I think that's painting with a very broad brush in Psalm 82 that you raised as being a reference to these gods could you explain how these gods had judged unjustly and shown partiality to the wicked do
01:25:13
I know all the specifics behind that verse no I certainly don't know all the context behind that verse now if I understand the position that you are enunciating then
01:25:26
Dr. Tanner you were asking me if I would agree with the
01:25:33
LDS that men can become gods I didn't say that I was just asking if you believe the concept that men can become gods
01:25:41
I didn't ask if you believed with the LDS I would never ask that question however you stated the specific question you were in essence saying well the debate is can men become gods across an
01:25:54
LDS debate in is it not a fair statement Dr. Tanner that within the
01:26:00
LDS context when we speak of God we are speaking of an exalted man I think that is the general belief yes and would you not say that it's fair in the early church context that Athanasius was not referring to God as an exalted man no
01:26:19
I do not I think that every Christian who believes that Jesus was crucified and resurrected and is an exalted man and is
01:26:30
God believes to an extent that God is an exalted man not in the same context that Latter Day Saints do but they do believe that concept did
01:26:40
Athanasius believe that Jesus had eternally been God I think that is something that he would believe yes and did
01:26:47
Athanasius ever speak of God the father as an exalted man no he did not that is a prime distinction
01:26:55
I think between Latter Day Saints early Christians and Protestants is that belief in fact would you agree with the conclusion of Dr.
01:27:06
Norman I'm sure you're familiar with his doctoral dissertation where he says
01:27:11
Athanasius has constant emphasis on participation or deification by grace as opposed to nature safeguards against both polytheism on the one hand and pantheism on the other deified
01:27:21
Christian is never equal to God in essence and remains subordinate by nature nor is one identified with God so as to lose his individual consciousness or activity the difference for Athanasius between Christ and a
01:27:30
Christian is that what the Savior possesses fusi cai alethaia by nature truly by nature the saved attains thesi cai cariti they're emphasizing the concept of a gift of grace would you agree with Norman at that point
01:27:44
I would agree with Norman and with Latter Day Saints that there's not one of us who is a
01:27:52
Latter Day Saint that believes that men can become gods other than by grace so when we read
01:28:00
Joseph Smith and his statement that we have to learn to dwell in everlasting burnings and learn how to become gods that all the gods have learned before us in the
01:28:10
King Follett funeral discourse would you not agree with me that that is a context completely foreign to that of Athanasius he would have had no way of understanding what
01:28:19
Joseph Smith was saying absolutely not I think one of the great distinctions between the protestant world today and the early
01:28:26
Christians is on whom God will choose to bestow this greatest of all gifts there is a belief that's rampant now that if you just believe that gift will be bestowed upon you the early church fathers had a very common saying we don't think great thoughts we do great things the emphasis was on doing what
01:28:52
Christ said doing what Christ taught and to those who obey him he would grant by grace that great gift but is it then still your assertion however that Athanasius with his doctrine of who
01:29:07
God the father was having been eternally God that Athanasius would have understood the words of Joseph Smith that we have to learn how to become
01:29:15
God as God himself learned how to become a God would he be agreed with no I don't think
01:29:21
Athanasius would have believed that there was a time when God the father was a man there is the cross examination period of the deification debate with Martin Tanner you can obtain that debate on our website the mp3 list is updated and ready to go you can order the audio tapes and the video as well it fits perfectly into a
01:29:43
Bible study class setting by the way so you might want to pick that up thank you for listening today thank you for listening even to the difficult stuff earlier on pray for us as we continue planning for the next outreach in Salt Lake City thanks for listening to dividing line
01:29:57
God bless I believe we're standing at the crossroads let this moment slip away we must contend for the faith the fathers fought for we need a new reformation day it's the sun of the times the truth is being trampled in a new age paradigm won't you lift up your voice are you tired of plain religion it's time to make some noise we're pounding on wetting birds pounding on wetting birds stand up for the truth won't you lift for the
01:31:04
Lord we're pounding on wetting birds the dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 -973 -0318 or write us at PO Box 37106
01:31:20
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01:31:26
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