Pastoral Advice for Singles in the Church

Conversations That Matter

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Hey everyone, welcome once again to the Conversations That Matter podcast, I am your host, John Harris, and with a special guest, we haven't had

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Michael Clary on before, Pastor Michael Clary, but he has a website if those who are interested want to check out more of his stuff after our interview, it's dmichaelclary .com,

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and if you go there, you also find a link for his book, God's Good Design, and it's a good book on biblical theology, on issues related to sexuality, and of course we need a lot of resources like that with all the bad resources that are out there today, but Pastor Clary is a pastor at Christ the

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King Church in Cincinnati, a Southern Baptist church, and he's also running for vice president of the

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Southern Baptist Convention. So that's exciting. So thank you for coming on the podcast and being willing to talk to us about singleness, but also maybe a little bit about SBC stuff.

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Yeah, man, thanks for having me on. It's a pleasure to talk to you, John. Thank you. So so first, let's do the politics thing.

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So you're running, I guess with Jared Moore, who's gonna be running for president of the Southern Baptist Convention.

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And, you know, maybe give us the stump speech. What are you running on? What do you hope to accomplish in SBC?

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Yeah, I've been concerned for a while watching the direction of the denomination, how things are going, and sort of,

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I've been planting my church and pastoring and, you know, trying to just be focused on my local work here, but having an eye to the direction of the convention, and I've just been really alarmed by some of the things that I've seen that,

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I know you've reported on some of this in the past, and some other friends of mine have said things. And the the big thing that was the issue last year was the

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Mike law amendment. And we need to pass that vote on it a second time this summer, to be able to make it ratified.

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And the amazing thing is it's a, it's just basically saying, this is what we believe, and we want to enforce it and highlight this as an important thing.

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And and so Rick Warren came out, and he came up with it. I thought the argument that he made was kind of silly.

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You know, a first year seminary student could debunk the the arguments that he was making in favor of women pastors.

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But that's the thing, like there are churches in the SBC that have women pastors, and we have to be very clear that the

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Baptist faith and message very clearly states that this is not something that is part of our history, our tradition, we do not want this.

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And of course, anybody who's looked into the issue knows that denominations or churches individually that have women pastors, it's like, you get on the slippery slope, and the slippery slope is undefeated, you will be liberal.

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It's it's a, it is an inevitability, you will go liberal, if you embrace this as a practice.

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So I don't want the SBC to go liberal. I love Southern Baptist Convention. I love what we stand for.

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I love the the work that we do. And I don't want to see it just die and wither on the vine, because we have allowed this leaven into our denomination that will corrupt it further and further.

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So it's, this is an important thing that we that we need to get clear on.

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And there's, I know that there's going to be work that has to be done to, to, as far as individual churches that maybe have started to move in this direction, maybe some have women pastors on their staff, some of them may have different ways that they they define that particular function.

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And that's, that's good work to do. That is good reforming work of helping the church to be more clear for us to be more, to have a better understanding of what we're trying to do and some of the negative consequences when we're not clear about how we use these words.

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So that that is, that is the big priority, as I have seen these troubling things happen in the

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SBC. And so I've been in conversation with some friends of mine that they, they started to urge me to, hey, we, we think that because I've written the book, and this is something that I've been vocal about in other areas,

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Karen Jobe with the becoming president of ETS and those sort of things. This is something that we really need to get out in front of and I have been speaking on it and been vocal about it.

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And they said, we think that you should be involved in, in running for first vice president. And I'm, you know,

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I'm very glad to get behind Jared Moore, who is an excellent man, very clear on these issues.

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And I think together we can move the needle, hopefully get our message out to be able to amplify the importance of what we're talking about.

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So this is, I'm excited to do it. I'm not really ambitious in a, you know, in a political sense, but I care about this convention and I care about God's word and that we, that we honor what scripture says.

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So I'm happy to do what I can to, to be able to articulate this at that level. Yeah. Well, you know, blessings to you on that.

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And, you know, I pray that the Lord, not just you, but Jared, you know, the Lord blesses your endeavors in this, because certainly it really seems like all denominations.

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I was actually just talking to a Lutheran professor before I got on this podcast with you.

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And it's like, man, the same stuff is everywhere, but the SBC represents so many churches. So, yeah, absolutely.

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So people want, I just, one last thing on that before we get into singleness, I mean, if people want to throw support your way, what kinds of things can they do?

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The, the really biggest thing is to show up in Indianapolis this summer. We need to get, we need to, there are so many pastors that I think are, they're unaware that the

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SBC is on a concerning trajectory, a very concerning trajectory, and maybe

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I'm probably soft -selling it. I think we're in trouble if we don't, if we don't get ahead of this. And, but a lot of people don't know, and because they don't know, they don't show up.

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And because they don't show up, the people who do show up, they end up determining the outcome.

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So the, the single biggest thing that you could do is to show up in Indianapolis.

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And there's some people, a lot of churches may not have the funding to be able to do it.

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And there's scholarship money available. You can go to sbcaction .com.

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I'll double check that website while I'm here. sbcaction .com.

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And there are scholarships available. And there's also some resources where you can find out more about, basically get the intel.

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Like why are, why are men like me concerned about these things? Well, you can get some of the intel there, sbcaction .com.

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And then you can also apply for scholarships where there's been some generous donors that can help fund your travel to Indy and just turn out the vote.

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And that's the most important thing. All right. Well, let's talk about singleness a bit, a little more down to earth.

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So you're a pastor. You have single people in your church? Oh, yeah. Yeah. We're pretty close to the

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University of Cincinnati. And so we've always had lots and lots of young people, a lot of singles, people starting out their life and career and marriages and so forth.

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So absolutely dealt with that a lot. Yeah, I've been involved in college ministry for years.

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And it's, I mean, it's certainly a unique phase of life. But one of the things, and I'm sure you've noticed this, that I've seen in Christian organizations is kind of an unhealthy perspective on it, where the gospel coalitions, of course, maybe the whipping boy for this, but they've put out so many things where the topic of singleness is kind of intertwined with the topic of homosexuality.

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And making church a more welcoming place for singles includes making church a more welcoming place for celibate homosexuals, supposedly.

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That it seems to, in my mind, downplay the importance of marriage and family.

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In fact, sometimes it's referred to as idolatry, to be too concerned with those things. And it's, it's almost created a false sense of holiness, that if you're single, that you can have the capacity for a deeper walk with the

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Lord or something. And so I'm sure you've seen this. I mean, are you tracking with what

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I am saying? And are you concerned with that? Yes.

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Oh yeah. I've seen this for, it's been probably 10 years ago.

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I first, it's been about that long. That is the first time I started to see this show up on my radar with gospel coalition and similar things about talking about singleness, which if you're just talking about caring for people, loving them that desire marriage, but they're not there yet.

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And while they are trusting God for a spouse, there are unique things the church can do to love them.

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I'm all in for that. But let's do that. Let's love people well. But the messaging that did seem to have some overtones of accommodation to things that are not godly or biblical.

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So as you mentioned, it, it creates incentives. And so there's this, this subtle messaging that says marriage, family, children, motherhood, good godly vocations that are traditional expressions of masculine and feminine.

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Those things are considered, you know, well, they're not as good as we thought, or maybe as you've heard, they might even be idols.

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And there's all kinds of problems and bad things that happen in marriages. And there's lots of challenges of parenting.

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So maybe that's not as good as you thought. And maybe singleness is the better way to go.

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The Apostle Paul was single, Jesus was single. And so they're held up as like, well, therefore, everybody needs to, to do things exactly their way without acknowledging the context that Paul was writing about in first Corinthians seven.

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And so you create this environment where singleness is just slowly elevated as probably the more spiritual way because people that get married, it's probably just because they have a carnal desire for sex.

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But, you know, they're not really seeking a godly vocation. And then along with that, it's like, well, some people that are single, they are single, because they have homosexual temptations that they have not yet mortified.

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And so they don't desire somebody the opposite sex. And so it's like a concession and accommodation to their temptation that, and at the time, everybody was very eagerly saying, oh, homosexuality is an orientation, it's fixed, it cannot change.

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It is what it is. And so we have to make room for this in the church. And so singleness, it's like if they want to honor

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God, well, they're, they're not going to get married. And so singleness was sort of carved out as this space.

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It's like, well, let's just honor and uphold singleness as the Christian ideal. They are perhaps more spiritual, more enlightened, more godly, more closer to the kingdom than, or more closer to, you know, the heart of God by being single.

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And people that are married, it's like, well, you're, you're having sex and you're sort of succumbing to your, you know, your carnal temptations, fleshly desires, but it's not really a good thing.

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And what we've done is we've just created a generation of people that see marriage and single at least equal.

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Marriage is not, we don't want to say, well, marriage is the better or marriage is the norm. We want to say, you know, marriage is one option.

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You can take door, you know, door number one, or you can do singleness, that's door number two. But what we do is like we, we create this incentive that has, that leads to fewer marriages, which leads to fewer babies, but it does not really lead, it's not like you have people that are chaste or celibate.

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You have people that are still, they still desire sex and God has not called them to chastity and celibacy to be eunuchs for the kingdom for unusual service.

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And so you've got like an increase of sin, an increase of temptation. You're downplaying the thing that is being most actively suppressed by our culture, which is the value of marriage, family, household, multi -generations, raising up children, the next generation, all these things are being sort of downplayed and suppressed in order to uphold singleness as some kind of an ideal.

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And there may be some good and valid reasons why people would do that. If you have, if you want to just care for singles, but what's being smuggled in is a whole host of things that are doing harm.

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And I think some single people, I've, I have heard this in my own church and this, this is when things really started to get my attention is when single people feel a bit embarrassed to admit, you know,

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Hey, what I really want is to get married. You know, young women, especially I would hear it's like, you know,

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I, you know, don't really want to say this here in my small group, but what I really want out of life is

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I want to get married and I want to have children and I want to raise them and stay home. And I'm like, praise God for that.

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But these women are feeling like, because they're absorbing messages from the world. Many of them are feeling like that's a bit, you know, a bit secondary, second class.

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I don't want to be like, you know, a lower tier Christian because I'm just getting married. And I'm like, that tells me, okay, you have not heard how much

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God honors marriage, how much marriage is glorifying and good. And it's the, it's, it's the, it's a, it's the most typical means of sanctification for most

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Christians. And we're just, we're missing out on really important things by, by parenting this message over and over.

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Let me pull up, this is a Gospel Coalition article. This is a recent one, not an old one, 2023.

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And in this particular article, it's by Mary Van Wielden. I'm not sure who that is, but it's what not to say to singles, right?

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So it goes through a few things you're not supposed to say, like you have to be content before God will give you a spouse. You're so wonderful.

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Why aren't you married yet? Your turn is coming. Don't, you know, don't say these things. Don't, you know, give them any false hope or help them,

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I guess, anticipate a potential marriage. Instead, and this is what

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I wanted to focus on, the last, it says what to say instead, and this is the last paragraph here or section of this article.

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It says, as you talk with single people struggling with despair and disquiet, remind them that the sweetness of life is here in the days

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God has ordained for them. Sanctification comes by the work of the Spirit as we wait on the

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Lord and trust His goodness. Companionship, community, and precious fellowship with eternal brothers and sisters are ours in the body of Christ as we delve into serving

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His church and loving His people. To a large extent, single brother or sister, your turn is already here.

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But more than that, one great and glorious day, you will meet the bridegroom. The church triumphant, the bride of Christ will worship our

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God forever. And in that day, dear Saint, your turn is coming. Now, there's so much truth in that, but there's some things that I find disturbing.

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And so what's your take on that? Because it seems biblical. It seems like it's trying to point people towards a heavenly direction.

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It seems like it's trying to spare their feelings in case they do not actually get married and not provide false hope.

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But what's wrong with that? It creates a false dichotomy.

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And the part that is left out is the fact that we are embodied. So embodied in the sense that God created us, male and female, for a purpose.

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And that purpose is good and God -honoring. And that purpose also is how the world is populated. It's where the people come from that we would hope to evangelize and people that would know

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Jesus. So it's like, this is a necessary human fact. And it creates this tension between the hard, real -world realities, flesh and blood, male -female realities that God created.

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He designed the world this way. And it says, well, once you layer the gospel on top of that, then these physical things don't matter.

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And we can downplay them, we can ignore them, because what really matters is your inner piety, your inner walk with God.

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That's the only thing that really matters. And whether or not you get married really doesn't matter, because as long as you're just hoping in God and trusting in God, then that's the most important thing.

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And it just neglects the fact that the means through which God sanctifies us, the way God populates the earth, the way

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God preserves the next generation of the church, all of these things, the normal means is having children or getting married, having children, raising them in the faith, bringing them into a church community where they're experiencing the gospel lived out in a variety of people.

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These things are normative. And it aligns with the very message that the world is pushing, this demonic message that wants to diminish the image of God on the earth, which is reducing people, reducing population.

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It just plays right into that messaging that the world is pushing. And so it's this pietistic neglect or denial of the things that are true.

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So it's like the gospel is not about getting married and having babies.

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The gospel is about loving Jesus, as though those two things are at odds with one another, when really they're congruent, they come together.

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And a lot of the ways that God prepares the inner self, the inner man, the inner woman, our love for him is through these normal, ordinary rhythms of just marriage and children and family life.

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It's a bizarre twisting, I think. It doesn't make sense why they would say this.

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And it just seems so obvious that this is a false dichotomy they're creating. And the

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Gospel Coalition just really published some bizarre things on the subject. I remember a few years ago,

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I was in a small group that was connected with a church that was right, it was right near Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, where I went and where I have my

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MDiv from. Anyway, I remember on social media, some of the women in that study connected to the seminary, you know, seminary, you know, wives, wives of professors, wives of students, that kind of thing, had a, on Facebook, had like a, one of them posted this, and then you had others chiming in, supporting it.

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This notion that the churches should not acknowledge Mother's Day, because of how hurtful it is for women who, you know, don't have children.

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And, you know, I, for years, my wife and I had struggles with infertility and that kind of thing.

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And, you know, one of the things that I think, as hard as that can be, to want something and not have it, maybe one of the worst things is for someone to tell you it's okay, that you should just be satisfied, right?

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That, no, there's something normal about wanting to have kids. And if we excise, this is the thing

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I guess I'm coming to, Pastor, is if we excise all the things that might offend someone, in this case, because they're single, but you could apply this to almost any group, then you're stripping the ability to rejoice with those who rejoice from your churches.

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Like, you can't really have community or, you know, body life. There's no sense of togetherness in a place of belonging when it's like, the main focus is just how sensitive can we be to those who are hurting?

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Maybe those people need to learn, they're the exceptions, and they need to learn to rejoice with those who rejoice. But that also sounds kind of, maybe harsh.

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And so, you know, as a pastoral, how do you, navigating this, I'm sure with a flock of many university students, how are you pastoral in these things, when people feel that sense of loss because they're not married or because they're not having children?

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But, you know, you don't, you know, how do you strike that, I don't know if I balance is the word, but you still maintain body life, you still acknowledge when someone's getting married, or you rejoice when they're having a child.

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Yeah. Plato famously said, a country cultivates what it honors.

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Or if you celebrate something, you celebrate, you cultivate what you celebrate, essentially. And what you do, whenever you say, wait, let's not, let's not celebrate

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Mother's Day, then you do the opposite thing. And you're kind of saying Mother's Day is something that we want to, or motherhood in general, because people want to be mothers and aren't, for, you know, perfectly legitimate reasons even.

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Because that will be something that will activate pain within them, and we want to care for them.

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Then what we're doing is we're saying, through our actions, and, you know, subtly, that one person's potential pain gets to dictate policy, and gets to dictate what we celebrate and uphold is honorable within the church.

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And we all have things about us that we don't like, that somebody else excels in, and we're weak in.

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And the Bible has a word for that, you know, sinful, it could be called envy, the sinful version of that.

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And so we're basically saying, envy, resentment, discontentment, those things get to drive the agenda of the church.

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And the things that the Bible upholds and honors is good and noble and should be honored.

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Motherhood is glorious and beautiful. I mean, praise God for mothers, for femininity, these things should be honored and celebrated.

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And when you don't, and everybody knows, it's kind of conspicuously absent that you don't celebrate these things.

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You're creating this, it's like the hidden curriculum in a school where we don't talk about it, we don't say it, but everybody knows it.

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Motherhood, that's something that we don't really want to touch because we don't want anybody's feelings to get hurt.

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And when you do that, where does it stop? You find yourself creating an environment where accommodating somebody's pain, which is a good thing in itself to be mindful, but that's something that you do interpersonally.

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That's something like, hey, if I'm talking to a woman that I know is barren or she's had a miscarriage or something, I'm going to speak to her with a certain tenderness and compassion because I know she is suffering, but that does not determine what

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I say in the pulpit. That does not determine what holidays we recognize and so forth. And this really has the effect of diminishing the goodness of motherhood.

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So I think what you could do, I think we just need to counter that. And that will mean if you already are in an environment, let's say you have a church that already has this sort of culture, then to turn that culture, you're having to turn things that are not overtly stated on the surface, but you're trying to turn hidden expectations that go against, you're trying to move and you're always going against people's expectations and that can be difficult for church to adjust to.

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But there are subtle things you can do. So one thing we do in my church that I think is really helpful, and this sort of emerged by accident.

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There's a man that gives announcements in our church and we have a young church, very fertile church, babies being born all the time.

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And whenever he does announcements, it'll just be like, well, church, want to let you know, so -and -so, the

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Smith family, their baby was born this week, beautiful baby, baby's name is whatever. And then the first time he did it, everybody just started clapping and cheering.

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And so there's this celebration and I was like, wow, that's pretty cool. And then a few weeks later, there was another baby and it did it again.

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And then that has become, that is subtly created. And it's not,

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I would say incentive because that's not really an incentive for having babies, but it says like, Hey, we honor this.

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And of course people that have miscarriages, we, or if they're infertile or if there's something like that, the body of Christ, they're in small groups, their struggle is known.

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And the body of Christ showers them with love, shows them compassion, because you have a fertile church, you're going to have miscarriages and you're going to have suffering women.

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And so they get flowers, they get phone calls, we're praying for you. You're able to have a wide range of emotional life within the church that you can account for.

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We want to celebrate and rejoice with those in rejoicing. Praise God for that. We want to mourn and show compassion for those that are in pain.

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That's good. And that's what the church does. You don't do anybody any favors whenever you accommodate and adjust to pain or let compassion be the only thing.

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That's kind of like the emotion that steers the whole church.

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You have to be on guard against that. And I think a lot of times churches have just sort of fallen into that, and it's subconscious.

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They don't even realize they're doing it. And it's hard to turn it around once you're there. So what do you say to single people who want to get married?

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I know there's some even at my church who they feel like that time is passing them by. And it's sad in a way, because the matchmakers all get involved, right?

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And they're trying to figure something out. But nothing has seemed to work yet.

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What do you say to someone like that who experiences maybe even depression, severe emotional problems because of this?

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Yeah. So this is where the very, very difficult pastoral work comes into play.

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And it's good pastoral work to do because you are thinking about the long -term good of the person you're talking to.

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So if you have somebody, they're past the prime years of dating and marriage.

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And so there's some practical things. So let's say it is through no fault of their own.

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Let's say that you live in an area, and there's just not very many godly men or women, and it's hard to find somebody compatible.

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And just the overall dating pool is shrinking for godly Christians. So it's like, hey, we have limited options here.

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And so you get involved and just practically acknowledge, here are the challenges, but let's help.

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Let's help you. What can we do? So I think there are things that churches could do to sort of throw out a welcome mat for singles and to say, to be able to communicate, we want to create an environment here where men and women meet each other, and they get married, and they start families.

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That's one of the things that we do, that we celebrate that as a church and word gets around. So you can just sort of try to attract people.

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The difficult pastoral work is if there is something that is fixable, and you have to have the relationship, you have to have the trust, because you'll spend some of that trust capital to address, there might be something in that person's life.

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Some people don't get married for just reasons outside of their control, but otherwise, they are faithful, they're walking with God, and that sort of thing.

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But there may be things that are within their control. It could be like, you could have a guy who just, he's too awkward when he talks to a girl.

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He doesn't know how to interact with her. Or he makes stupid jokes, or he's inappropriate. Or you could have a woman who just doesn't take care of her appearance.

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Even to say that, women get upset, especially, because it's like, what do you mean?

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Godliness is beautiful. Matt Chandler told me that. And so if I'm a godly woman and I pray, then isn't that enough?

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Well, let's not be pietistic here. Yes, godliness should be attractive, and that should be a big draw.

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But men are men, and it is not bad, or wrong, or sinful for men to be drawn to a woman because she is physically attractive.

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And different men will have different styles or tastes that he's drawn to. The Bible acknowledges this when he talks about the beauty of Rachel.

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She was beautiful in form and appearance. That's not wrong for a man to acknowledge that and for a man to desire that.

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Let me just say, it has to be a church -wide priority, and there has to be wisdom and maturity in how you handle it.

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But I would say in this situation, it's like, how can the women in particular help here? Guys can talk to guys.

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I'm like, hey, dude, you're being a doofus. Don't make that joke. Why do you talk that way? It's like, tuck your shirt in, or present yourself like somebody who's a serious man.

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Get a job. Men can do that. But if there are things that are uniquely feminine, the fact of the matter is that there are unique things that make women unattractive that are in her control.

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Women are used to hearing only messages of affirmation. They're not used to being challenged because it's like, you go, girl.

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He doesn't deserve you. You're beautiful. For somebody to come along and even suggest, you might be aiming higher than what's realistic.

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Who wants to say that? You heartless, wicked, cruel man. But the thing is, we don't want to be realistic.

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We don't want to live in reality. We want to be like, I'm living in this spiritual world where I'm godly.

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That means I'm perfect and beautiful. Anybody who doesn't see that, it's their fault and there isn't anything that I need to do to change.

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It's like you hear about messy community. Life on life, we're doing life together. That means you're going to coffee. What we're talking about life on life here is practically helpful.

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Let's address some of these things. I know one person in particular wants to be married, isn't getting older, no one even say male or female because of somebody

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I know in my church. I'm like, if you want to be married, you need to show up at church. Be here every

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Sunday. Come early, stay late. If there's an event, a social, a potluck, be here.

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Sure, you feel uncomfortable. Sure, you're shy. Get over that. You can't blame anybody else but yourself if you're not even putting yourself out there.

31:16

I'm curious as a pastor, I've had this thought. I have shared with my wife before what you're talking about with mutual friends sometimes who are women.

31:29

I'll tell my wife, I know that person wants to be married, but they just put in a little work to their appearance.

31:37

Initially, when my wife first heard that out, men are pigs. I'm like, well, I'm just trying to help here.

31:44

I'm not going to say anything to her, but if you want to help her. I forgot where I was going with that.

31:52

We think in moral categories. If you say, I think she can work on her appearance a little bit.

32:00

You're not saying she's unlovable or she's in sin in some way.

32:06

It's like, hey, these are practical things. Christians, they want to think practically in certain areas, but when it comes to dating, marriage, things like this, the inner piety is just off the charts.

32:20

We don't want to think practically and that's crippling. It seems like a moral indictment on somebody's character.

32:28

I think that's the pain that singles feel. They already feel exposed as like, oh, you're a spinster.

32:36

Nobody wants you. You feel unlovable. If you talk about it, then that even highlights it more. It's really painful and difficult.

32:44

Pastors that really love their people, that's what we got to think long -term. If you think, I could just ignore this issue.

32:52

I could never preach on it, never talk about it, never bring up the subject and only show that person compassion. For the rest of their life, they'll be 60, 70, 80 years old and may never get married.

33:02

I get to be the guy that was always compassionate to them. But what if you could offend them a little bit, maybe a lot even, hurt their feelings to say, listen, address these areas in your life and I think your chances will improve.

33:17

Then maybe the outcome of that could be they think that you're a pig and a jerk, but they actually make those changes and that leads to good results.

33:28

I would rather offend somebody now, hurt their feelings. I hate doing this.

33:34

It's like, oh, it makes me sick to challenge somebody in this way. But maybe if you could say something that they might find hurtful now, but it would be it's like the wounds of a friend.

33:49

I'm saying this for your good, bro. Hit the gym. You're fat, you're overweight, you're lazy, you don't have a job.

33:55

Who would want to marry you? You're barely making enough money to support yourself. I think it's important to note that's not necessarily just, this is not exclusively physical attraction.

34:05

This is also the ability to actually provide and fulfill responsibilities

34:12

God has given for a marriage. It's saying more about yourself than just, oh, I'm ugly or something like that.

34:18

That's not the entire thing. I wanted to just,

34:24

I remember my question now, but I think I want to introduce it with this stat here. This is a website, 538, but it's the title of this, it's from last year,

34:39

Valentine's day last year. Americans are increasingly single and okay with it. It cites a Pew research report in 2021 that found that the share of American adults ages 25 to 54 who are married fell by almost 15 percentage points between 1990 and 2019 from 67 % to 53%.

34:56

The rising share of unmarried people living with a partner accounted for a bit of that drop, but it was mostly driven by people living without a spouse or a partner.

35:06

In 1990, adults were more than twice as likely to be married than on their own. But by 2019, the gap between the two groups had narrowed considerably.

35:13

And I'm wondering, and in fact, I'm not even wondering, I know this is also holding up for Christians, the same thing as being maybe not as severely, but this is showing up in churches where you have people who are in their thirties, forties, single, sometimes never dated.

35:32

And I know some people like that. And for the courtship audience, you can substitute dating courtship, whatever.

35:41

They haven't had someone that they've been interested in who is also mutually interested pursuing the possibility of marriage.

35:49

And I'm wondering how much of this, just on a macro level, is the result of people's timidity and introvertedness and shyness and laziness.

36:04

And maybe they're not understanding the role of a husband and wife and thinking it's all about self -serving.

36:10

So in other words, it's their issue. And then how much of this is just circumstance that there's just not as many people available?

36:19

I don't know if I buy that. I mean, what do you think looking at the ministry in your church? Do you think that this is mainly something driven by people and selfish desires or timidity or whatever, or is this something that's just circumstantial?

36:36

Because I know there are circumstances. Yeah. I think in the church, at least in my church, so I'm speaking from the perspective of my own experience in my church, we have godly men and women.

36:47

They love Christ. They want to be obedient. We don't have the people who are just fornicating and they're being wild and rebellious because they wouldn't last long in my church, because they would feel too uncomfortable at the very least.

37:05

I think there's a cocktail of a number of different issues that play off of one another.

37:10

There are practical things. Men are trending to the right in terms of young men are becoming more conservative because the left tells them you're sexist, you're a pig, you have no value, only women have value, and your contribution to society should be to elevate women.

37:30

So you have men that's just like, there's no message. There's nothing for men on the left. And conservative men, or young men hear a positive message of their manhood from the right, especially in the church.

37:43

So you have men trending right, you have women trending left, because the left is where they get the affirmation, it's like, you do no wrong, you're more virtuous than men, you're practically sinless, you're not going to be challenged.

37:55

So you have this divergence. So to find compatibility between men and women,

38:01

I think we have less compatible, we have a diminishing Christianity in our society.

38:08

Of Christians, you still have an ideological divide between men and women, so that shrinks the dating pool even smaller.

38:15

And then you have practical things of maturity that people are less willing to address now, and society doesn't reinforce.

38:22

In fact, society incentivizes immaturity. So that's a factor. And we become increasingly atomized individualistically, and we expect that somebody's going to come along, they're going to meet my needs, they're going to fit me perfectly.

38:38

So I think we have an expectation, and unhealthy expectations. So we want to have the right expectations, but not unhealthy expectations.

38:47

And that leads to this paralysis of choice, to where I expect to be able to find somebody that fits me perfectly.

38:55

And dating apps, I think, really play into this. It's like you can check eye color, height, weight, life experience, whatever.

39:04

And it's just like you toggle these things on and off. But you don't meet somebody the way you normally would.

39:10

It's like somebody is sitting next to you in church, somebody at the ice cream shop, somebody at the restaurant, whatever. And generally, everybody's

39:17

Christian. Generally, people are, you can find out pretty quickly what kind of person they are.

39:23

But there are divisions that are, as their society fragments more and more,

39:30

I think we play into that as Christians. But also, it is pushed by our society.

39:36

And I think one of the big drivers of this is feminism. The message of feminism is, basically, we promote women.

39:49

We promote womanhood by making them more masculine and less feminine. And so we downplay feminine ideals.

39:54

And that drives women towards the left. And the blame for all of this is placed upon men, an oppressive patriarchal society.

40:03

So men are seen as villains, and women are seen as victims that need protection.

40:09

And so I think that there's a pushed apart in all different directions.

40:19

And those society trends do find their way into the church, because we live here and we're affected by the things that we see and hear.

40:25

And then in the church, a lot of times, well, it's uncomfortable to address and push back on the world.

40:31

And so we'll find some verse we can take out of context or something that we can sort of misapply and stick a

40:37

Bible verse on an issue and affirm what the world is doing and say, well, true Christianity is this thing that the left is promoting.

40:45

And you get accolades from the world. You get accolades from the left for doing that. But you disciple people into worldliness.

40:53

And a lot of churches are going that route. That's why I'm like, we talked about earlier at the show, this need to address women pastors, because that just opens a

41:03

Pandora's box of basically what we've been getting in the world is just going to explode in the church also.

41:10

And so all of these things coalesce. And I don't know if I could point to any singular factor.

41:16

It is so multifaceted, but downstream of all this, you're going to have fewer marriages. You're going to have fewer babies.

41:22

We're below replacement rate in our society. We're like 1 .7 or 1 .6 or something like that.

41:27

So we're per woman, we're aborting children. It's like these things have catastrophic downstream effects.

41:36

And yeah, I don't have a singular thing I could point to to say that's the issue, but I think it's all of them.

41:44

Fascinating. When this stuff comes into the church, though, I'm sure it burdens the heart of a shepherd for his sheep that he wants to see.

41:57

And for God's normative design, it is going to be marriage for most people and having children.

42:03

Obviously, there's your exceptions. But what do you do, practically speaking, when let's say it's someone, we'll say 40 years old, a guy who has expressed for years he wants to be married, hasn't found that right girl yet.

42:22

And there's girls in the church. There's girls, maybe he's not trying hard enough. He's not going to the places where they really are.

42:28

But for whatever reason, no one seems to meet his standards.

42:35

How do you talk to someone like that in a loving, but maybe corrective way?

42:41

Yeah. I think you have to get really specific. What are your standards?

42:47

What are you looking for? Tell me what the non -negotiables are. Let's say you have a handful of spiritual non -negotiables.

42:56

It's like a woman who knows the Lord and she's committed to Christ. You don't want to lower the standard and just date a nominal

43:03

Christian or non -Christian. Better to not be married than to be unequally yoked to somebody who's not a believer or really immature believer.

43:14

What are the things that are good non -negotiables, things that you should not budge on because God would require you to not budge on them?

43:21

And then what are some of the things that are matters of preference? Some of those things would be, let's say if you're in your forties, well, how young do you go?

43:29

How old do you go? If you're a 40 -year -old man, would you marry a single 50 -year -old woman or a single 30 -year -old woman?

43:36

What are some of the other things? And then you're negotiating. Okay. How badly do you want to get married?

43:44

Would it be better to marry a woman that you don't find her extremely attractive physically, but she's a good godly woman?

43:56

Would you rather marry her or would you rather just continue in your singleness and maybe always be single?

44:03

And so maybe your standards are just not realistic. And those practical things are, some of them are negotiated and I don't think it's wrong.

44:13

Not at all. It's not wrong to have those standards, but this is where we just have to get over our pietistic impulse to just think, well,

44:21

I'm a Christian. God loves me. Of course, he's going to give me my dream girl or my dream guy. And that's not realistic.

44:28

So you have to think, okay, just be really practical. Maybe she is not as attractive as I would prefer.

44:35

Maybe she's not the age that I would prefer. And then, okay, she's a godly woman.

44:44

Do you not think, would you be the first man ever to marry a woman that you're spiritually, emotionally compatible with, but physically you're not attracted to?

44:54

And for that to be a good, do you think God could not work through that? It may sanctify you. It may challenge you, but I would say maybe you should consider that.

45:05

But then again, there may be other factors that it's okay. There are several options and there may be some other woman that'd be an option.

45:11

I don't want to say lower your standard. I just want to say, be realistic about what you're looking for.

45:19

Sorry to interrupt. What about this notion though, that the right woman for me, that perfect soulmate that one of a kind is right around the corner.

45:31

I just got to wait another month, another year. It's going to be this year I'm going to meet.

45:37

And so that happens year after year and they don't meet that person. That's a common kind of assumption that's out there that they don't actually get married because they're afraid they're going to make an inferior choice because there's something good coming.

45:55

That's stupid and foolish. Okay. All right. No, I want to hear the brutal truth.

46:01

It is. We are elect for salvation, but the idea that there is one girl out there or one guy out there that's your soulmate is just dumb.

46:17

There's no biblical warrant for that. The reality is that, how do you know somebody is the one?

46:27

And I'm like, well, if you say I do on your wedding day, that's when you know she's the one.

46:34

That's when you know he's the one. Until that point, there's always going to be things that you evaluate.

46:44

There is marriage entails risk. That's unavoidable. And our risk tolerance can't be so low that we expect perfection out of somebody else.

46:57

But there are just no rational or biblical grounds to think that there is a soulmate.

47:04

I'll tell you a story. Before I met my wife, I met her, we'll be married 25 years this summer.

47:11

And so I met her. You don't look that old. How is that possible? I'm 78 years old, man. I'm kidding.

47:17

No, I'm 49. We met in 1997 on a summer mission trip.

47:24

And right before I met her, I had been dating a girl for a couple years before that.

47:30

And I thought she was the one. There's so many lessons in this story. I thought she was the one. I loved her.

47:36

And if I had money, thank God, thank you, Jesus. If I had the money, I would have bought a ring and proposed to her.

47:43

And I was naive enough to think I can turn her around. She was cold and icy.

47:49

She was not very affectionate, but I was like, I can turn this around and I'm going to be the man that loves her enough to where she'll just melt into my arms and just be like, you rescued me from whatever.

48:03

I had this naive picture of that. But eventually she had this dog that she was very cold to me, very icy and just not,

48:13

I just, I've really defined, do you even love me? But she would just like kiss this dog. And like, it just seemed like this dog was her whole world.

48:20

And I told her once, I said, I kind of feel like you love this dog more than me. And she said,

48:29

I don't know, there may be something to that. And I was like, whoa, okay. And so we've,

48:35

I was like, okay, this, this cannot continue. And so we broke up. So about a few, that a few months later,

48:43

I met my wife on a summer mission trip. And I was like, oh man, I take all the things that this girl wasn't my wife was.

48:50

So it, we just, we really hit it off great at the beginning. So I came, but she lived in Michigan and I lived in West Virginia.

48:58

So we did the long distance dating thing for a while. But whenever I got back to West Virginia, this girl that I'd broken up with before, she calls me up and she said,

49:05

Hey, we need to have lunch. I need to talk to you about something. So I meet with her. I go to lunch with her. The dog died. No, I'm just kidding.

49:11

No, no, I think the dog lived for many years. But we, we, we met for lunch and she, she said,

49:19

Michael, I've just got to tell you all of the things that you, you know, complained about that, that we're not good in our relationship.

49:26

I've, I've just realized like I can change in these areas. And, and I know this because a woman had prophesied to me at church that you and I are to get married.

49:35

You're my soulmate. Whoa. And I said, the Lord has given me no such message.

49:42

And I'm sorry, but, uh, there's, there's somebody else that, that I think is, is, is the right fit for me.

49:48

But she had this idea of a soulmate. And I just wonder like the idea of it being a soulmate, I think could be potentially very harmful, if not devastating to somebody spiritually, because it sort of adds this divine weight to their love attraction.

50:03

And people do crazy, stupid things when they're infatuated and they, they think

50:08

God calls me to marry this one. Like, well, God doesn't just call you. He would also call her and her parents.

50:15

And so, you know, that God's called you on your wedding day until then. Yeah. You don't want to just, just declare that.

50:22

Yeah. I mean, I remember I had, you know, crushes, obviously like, like most guys through their teens who people that, that you were, you know, that you liked or whatever.

50:29

But I remember the first time I really was infatuated with someone. And I thought I misunderstood what was happening because it's so strong.

50:37

It's such a, um, uh, an amazing thing that I think God has wired into us to be attracted to someone.

50:42

Right. But I thought that this was like directly from God, God was telling me this person. Right. And, um, and it really didn't make sense.

50:50

It wasn't like based on a lot of information. It was a lot of it. I think I built up in my own mind about who this person was.

50:58

And, um, and obviously I see that now with maturity. And of course, you know, my parents saw that at the time,

51:03

I think that I was just kind of young and foolish, but it, when you're in it, it doesn't seem that way.

51:09

It seems like, you know, this has to be it. And then, you know, how many marriages start based on upon that?

51:15

And it's not a firm foundation and it doesn't work out. And so I think that's good to, uh, to check that, to just, you know, maybe have some godly friends and spiritual leaders and people to bounce these things off of, because you can have a successful marriage without the fireworks at the beginning.

51:32

And you can, you know, you can have one with them too, but it's, uh, not necessarily, you know, an indication that that's the right person.

51:40

So I think it's why you have to keep hitting this drum, but it's like, you've, you have to be practical and we don't like doing that at least in, in love and dating and these sort of things.

51:52

We just don't want to think practically. We, we've watched too many Disney movies and we think it's a fairy tale and it's all perfect.

51:58

And it works out when that's not realistic. And that's not a good or healthy or godly expectation. We have to be like, there, there could be bumps in the road.

52:07

There could be challenges. And if we don't think practically, cause like when you fall in love with somebody, it, it, it just short circuits your rational thinking capacity.

52:18

And that's what makes it fun. It's like, it's like when you're in fact, when you love somebody, it's like, it's fun.

52:24

It's like, man, I'm just so crazy head over heels. And it's like, you have to, you have to, it's like, it becomes a discipline at that point towards like, man,

52:32

I feel so many wild emotions for this woman or for this man. And you have to know when you feel that, then you're on the verge of doing something really stupid.

52:42

And so you have to have all the more self -discipline of your thinking to not just let that lead you off a cliff because infatuation will do that.

52:55

Yeah. By the time I started going out with my wife, I had probably overcorrected to the point

53:01

I had a hundred questions and I was like, you know, it was like, here's an online form.

53:08

I'll send you within like the first month of even talking, we hadn't even dated yet.

53:13

I'm asking her what she thinks about joint bank accounts and stuff like that, you know, freaked her out. So I did something similar with my wife.

53:20

She went to, she went to Calvin college. Uh, this was, they were already going liberal then, but not, they were not as bad at the time, but we were on this mission as right.

53:30

Right. So I, so I'm, cage stage Calvinism. Um, and I'm like reading

53:37

Piper and Packer and R .C. Sproul really just geeking out on it. And so I meet her on this trip and I'm like, so where do you go to school?

53:44

And just getting to know her is because I go to Calvin college and I'm dumb enough to think, Oh, well, clearly she's five point

53:51

Calvinist at least. And so I was like, Oh, so Calvin college. So tell me, you know, what are your thoughts about Calvinism?

53:57

She had never heard of it. She's like, I don't know. I don't know what you're asking me. This is really strange.

54:02

And I was like, okay, mayday, mayday. I'm really crashing here, but I was able to overcome.

54:10

Yeah. I had something similar. My wife on our first date was like, uh, she asked me or she, she said,

54:15

I know you're a Calvinist. My reputation had preceded me. And, um, I said, yeah,

54:20

I said, who, uh, who do you think is responsible for your salvation? Is it you or is it

54:26

Christ, you know, completely Christ or do you have a part in it? And he said, well, it's Christ. I said, well, you are too. So we're good.

54:31

She was so mad. Um, anyway, uh, little, little tangents on the personal stuff, but, uh, but in all seriousness is we should probably land the plane.

54:40

We're almost an hour in, um, I guess to wind this up, let me read for you. This is from a desiring

54:46

God. This is what you just mentioned Piper. So this isn't from Piper, but it's from someone who I guess has written for Piper's outlet.

54:54

Uh, the, the title of the article is singleness is not a problem to be solved. And it goes through some of the standard things that you would, you know, you would think about, but the end of it, it says, um, happiness is not found through finding a soulmate, but through finding satisfaction in a loving savior who has called you in his own and made you a beloved son and daughter of the

55:16

King. And this is the last question that I would like to ask you, because I think it's a pressing thing for singles in the church.

55:24

Is it okay to be disappointed that you're not married? Cause you read articles like this and you think, well,

55:30

I should just be satisfied in Christ or something. Is it okay to mourn with that person? And it's okay to say, you know, this is the way things ought to work.

55:39

It hasn't worked out that way for you yet. And I'm just so sorry because it stinks. Yeah. That's what

55:45

I think. I mean, just the things that you read, the two things that stood out to me right away is the, the headline.

55:52

Singleness is not a problem to be solved. That's very subtle and clever word games because you're, you're talking about a phenomena that people will immediately read the headline as from an individual standpoint.

56:09

So if you're talking to an individual that is, they desire to be married and they're faithful, obeying

56:15

God, and they're single, then you would say to them this, like, you're not in sin.

56:21

You're not disobeying God. This is a circumstance, but it's written in such a way that headlines is like, singleness is not a problem to be solved.

56:29

It's like taking that conversation with a faithful single and extrapolating it to the phenomena of singleness as we're discussing it and saying that this whole phenomenon, it's like nothing to see here.

56:39

There's no problems. The concerns are unfounded. And that's, that's just wrong. That, that is a, that is a deceptive word.

56:45

Maybe they didn't intend it to be deceptive, but it's deceptive. And then the, um, where the quote that you mentioned at the end was a false dichotomy.

56:55

It's like, it's not this, but it is that as though the two are at odds with one another.

57:02

So it's like, yes, I am to be content in Christ. How am I to be content in Christ? How am

57:07

I to delight in Christ? Well, I delight in the father who gives me good gifts and it is not wrong to delight in the good gifts as, as a generous and benevolent father has given them.

57:18

But to say, well, it's either you delight in Christ or you delight in marriage, which means it's an idol.

57:24

That's a false dichotomy. And it's a, it's a disordered loves sort of phenomena going there.

57:30

And that people get that in their minds and it pushes them into this inward piety sort of thing to where it's like, if I really love somebody, if I desire to be with them, if I desire children, then that's idolatry.

57:40

And I'm like, no, it isn't. That's God is hardwired each of us with those desires. That's part of just our human wiring.

57:47

And that's, that's a good thing. And God gave us those things because he wants us to direct them towards a good purpose.

57:54

And that kind of messaging is, is, is wrong. So that if you have a single person and like, man, I'm like a young woman,

58:01

I'm devastated. I want to be married. I want to, I want to raise a family and I want to have children and be a good wife.

58:06

And I'm like, those are good desires. You, you have a God honoring desire. Is there a potential that it could be an idol?

58:12

Sure. But, but that's, that's not the, that's not the most important thing to discuss in that moment.

58:18

The thing in that moment is like, your desires are good and this is painful. I'm sorry. It's a trial. So let's, let's call it a trial and call it what it is.

58:24

The Bible tells us how to deal with trials and suffering and pain um, that I, and I think that's the problem is that you have people that they don't, they feel like they're doing something naughty if they want to get married and have children.

58:39

And I'm like, that is the exact opposite message that is needed in this generation at this time. Good, good, good word.

58:46

Well, if people want to find out more about Pastor Michael Clary's work, then go to his website, which is dmichaelclary .com.

58:56

And you can get his book there too. God's Good Design. I know it's on Amazon as well. And you can also, if you want to support

59:04

Dr. Michael Clary and Dr. Jared Moore, who are running for the presidency and the vice presidency of the

59:10

Southern Baptist Convention, go to sbcaction .com and you can find out more about how to support people or information on the convention.

59:20

So with that, thank you so much, Pastor Clary. I appreciate your insights and wisdom on this. Thank you for having me,

59:26

John. Just one quick clarification. Um, it's D. Michael Clary. I don't have a doctorate, so I don't want anybody thinking more highly of me than they should.

59:33

Well, pastor is, is a higher office anyway, so. Praise God. I caught myself when I said that, I said, Dr. Jared Moore, Dr.

59:39

Michael, and I was, I should have said pastor, but um, I think Jared Moore is a doctor though, right? He is. He is a doctor,

59:45

Jared Moore, and, and I think he's a pastor too, so. So wait, I, so is Michael your first or your, so I guess it'll be your middle name.

59:52

Michael's my middle name. D is my first initial. A true West Virginian. Okay. Yeah. All right. Well, God bless.