Pastoral Advice for Singles in the Church

Southern Baptist Convention Leadership and the Mike Law Amendment

Hey everyone, welcome once again to Conversations That Matter podcast. I am your host, John Harris. And with a special guest, we haven't had Michael Clary on before, Pastor Michael Clary, but he has a website.

If those who are interested want to check out more of his stuff after our interview, it's dmichaelclary .com. And if you go there, you also find a link for his book, God's Good Design. And it's a good book on biblical theology, on issues related to sexuality.

And of course we need a lot of resources like that with all the bad resources that are out there today. But Pastor Clary is a pastor at Christ the King Church in Cincinnati, a Southern Baptist Church.

And he's also running for vice president of the Southern Baptist Convention. So that's exciting. So thank you for coming on the podcast and being willing to talk to us about singleness, but also maybe a little bit about SBC stuff.

Yeah, man, thanks for having me on. It's a pleasure to talk to you, John. Thank you.

So first let's do the politics thing. So you're running, I guess with Jared Moore, who's gonna be running for president of the Southern Baptist Convention. And maybe give us the stump speech. What are you running on?

What do you hope to accomplish in the SBC?

Yeah, I've been concerned for a while watching the direction of the denomination, how things are going and sort of, I've been planting my church and pastoring and trying to just be focused on my local work here, but having an eye to the direction of the convention.

And I've just been really alarmed by some of the things that I've seen that I know you've reported on some of this in the past and some other friends of mine have said things. And the big thing that was the issue last year was the Mike Law Amendment.

And we need to pass that, vote on it a second time this summer to be able to make it ratified. And the amazing thing is it's just basically saying, this is what we believe and we want to enforce it and highlight this as an important thing.

And so Rick Warren came out and he came up with, I mean, I thought the argument that he made was kind of silly. You know, a first year seminary student could debunk the arguments that he was making in favor of women pastors.

But that's the thing, there are churches in the SBC that have women pastors and we have to be very clear that the Baptist faith and message very clearly states this is not something that is part of our history, our tradition, we do not want this.

And of course, anybody who's looked into the issue knows that denominations or churches individually that have women pastors, it's like, you get on the slippery slope and the slippery slope is undefeated, you will be liberal.

It is an inevitability, you will go liberal if you embrace this as a practice. So I don't want the SBC to go liberal. I love Southern Baptist Convention, I love what we stand for, I love the work that we do.

And I don't wanna see it just die and wither on the vine because we have allowed this leaven into our denomination that will corrupt it further and further. So this is an important thing that we need to get clear on.

And I know that there's going to be work that has to be done as far as individual churches that maybe have started to move in this direction, maybe some have women pastors on their staff. Some of them may have different ways that they define that particular function.

And that's good work to do. That is good reforming work of helping the church to be more clear, for us to have a better understanding of what we're trying to do and some of the negative consequences when we're not clear about how we use these words.

So that is the big priority as I have seen these troubling things happen in the SBC. And so I've been in conversation with some friends of mine that they started to urge me to, hey, we think that because I've written the book and this is something that I've been vocal about in other areas, Karen Jobe with the becoming president of ETS and those sort of things.

This is something that we really need to get out in front of and I've been speaking on it and been vocal about it. And they said, we think that you should be involved in running for first vice president.

And I'm very glad to get behind Jared Moore who has been an excellent man, very clear on these issues. And I think together we can move the needle, hopefully get our message out to be able to amplify the importance of what we're talking about.

So this is, I'm excited to do it. Not really ambitious in a political sense, but I care about this convention and I care about God's word and that we honor what scripture says. So I'm happy to do what I can to be able to articulate this at that level.

Yeah, well, blessings to you on that. And I pray that the Lord, not just you, but Jared, the Lord blesses your endeavors in this because certainly it really seems like all denominations. I was actually just talking to a Lutheran professor before I got on this podcast with you.

And it's like, man, the same stuff is everywhere, but the SBC represents so many churches.

Yeah, absolutely.

So people want, just one last thing on that before we get into singleness. I mean, if people want to throw support your way, what kinds of things can they do?

The really biggest thing is to show up in Indianapolis this summer. There are so many pastors that I think are, they're unaware that the SBC is on a concerning trajectory, very concerning trajectory. And maybe I'm probably soft-selling it.

I think we're in trouble if we don't get ahead of this. But a lot of people don't know. And because they don't know, they don't show up. And because they don't show up, the people who do show up, they end up determining the outcome.

So the single biggest thing that you could do is to show up in Indianapolis. And there's some people, a lot of churches may not have the funding to be able to do it. And there's scholarship money available.

You can go to sbcaction .com. I'll double-check that website while I'm here, sbcaction .com. And there are scholarships available. And there's also some resources where you can find out more about, basically get the intel.

Like why are men like me concerned about these things? Well, you can get some of the intel there, sbcaction .com. And then you can also apply for scholarships where there's been some generous donors that can help fund your travel to Indy and just turn out the vote.

That's the most important thing.

Marriage, Singleness, and the Church's Cultural Messaging

All right. Well, let's talk about singleness a bit, a little more down to earth. So you're a pastor. You have single people in your church?

Oh yeah.

Yeah, we're pretty close to the University of Cincinnati. And so we've always had lots and lots of young people, a lot of singles, people starting out their life and career and marriages and so forth.

So absolutely dealt with that a lot.

Yeah, I've been involved in college ministry for years. And it's, I mean, it's certainly a unique phase of life. But one of the things, and I'm sure you've noticed this, that I've seen in Christian organizations is kind of an unhealthy perspective on it where the gospel coalitions, of course, maybe the whipping boy for this, but they've put out so many things where the topic of singleness is kind of intertwined with the topic of homosexuality and making church a more welcoming place for singles includes making church a more welcoming place for celibate homosexuals, supposedly.

That it seems to, in my mind, downplay the importance of marriage and family. In fact, sometimes it's referred to as idolatry to be too concerned with those things. And it's almost created a false sense of holiness that if you're single, that you can have the capacity for a deeper walk with the Lord or something.

And so I'm sure you've seen this. I mean, are you tracking with what I am saying and are you concerned with that?

Yes. Oh yeah.

I've seen this for, it's been probably 10 years ago. I first, it's been about that long that is the first time I started to see this show up on my radar with Gospel Coalition and similar things about talking about singleness, which if you're just talking about caring for people, loving them that desire marriage, but they're not there yet.

And while they are trusting God for a spouse, there are unique things the church can do to love them. I'm all in for that. Let's do that. Let's love people well. But the messaging that did seem to have some overtones of accommodation to things that are not godly or biblical.

So as you mentioned, it creates incentives. And so there's this subtle messaging that says marriage, family, children, motherhood, good godly vocations that are traditional expressions of masculine and feminine.

Those things are considered, well, they're not as good as we thought, or maybe as you've heard, they might even be idols. And there's all kinds of problems and bad things that happen in marriages. And there's lots of challenges of parenting.

So maybe that's not as good as you thought. And maybe singleness is the better way to go. The apostle Paul was single, Jesus was single. And so they're held up as like, well, therefore everybody needs to do things exactly their way without acknowledging the context that Paul was writing about in 1 Corinthians 7.

And so you create this environment where singleness is just slowly elevated as probably the more spiritual way because people that get married, it's probably just because they have a carnal desire for sex but they're not really seeking a godly vocation.

And then along with that, it's like, well, some people that are single, they are single because they have homosexual temptations that they have not yet mortified. And so they don't desire somebody of the opposite sex.

And so it's like a concession, an accommodation to their temptation that... And at the time, everybody was very eagerly saying, oh, homosexuality is an orientation. It's fixed, it cannot change. It is what it is.

And so we have to make room for this in the church. And so singleness, it's like, if they want to honor God, well, they're not gonna get married. And so singleness was sort of carved out as this space.

It's like, well, let's just honor and uphold singleness as the Christian ideal. They are perhaps more spiritual, more enlightened, more godly, more closer to the kingdom than, or more closer to the heart of God by being single.

And people that are married, it's like, well, you're having sex and you're sort of succumbing to your carnal temptations, fleshly desires, but it's not really a good thing. And what we've done is we've just created a generation of people that see marriage and single at least equal.

Marriage is not, we don't want to say, well, marriage is the better, or marriage is the norm. We want to say, you know, marriage is one option. You can take door, you know, door number one, or you can do singleness, that's door number two.

But what we do is like, we create this incentive that has, that leads to fewer marriages, which leads to fewer babies, but it does not really lead, it's not like you have people that are chaste or celibate.

You have people that are still, they still desire sex, and God has not called them to chastity and celibacy, to be eunuchs for the kingdom for unusual service. And so you've got like an increase of sin, an increase of temptation.

You're downplaying the thing that is being most actively suppressed by our culture, which is the value of marriage, family, household, multi-generations, raising up children, the next generation. All these things are being sort of downplayed and suppressed in order to uphold singleness as some kind of an ideal.

And there may be some good and valid reasons why people would do that, if you have, if you want to just care for singles, but what's being smuggled in is a whole host of things that are doing harm. And I think some single people, I have heard this in my own church, and this is when things really started to get my attention, is when single people feel a bit embarrassed to admit, hey, what I really want is to get married.

Young women, especially, I would hear it, it's like, I don't really want to say this here in my small group, but what I really want out of life is I want to get married and I want to have children and I want to raise them and stay home.

And I'm like, praise God for that. But these women are feeling like, because they're absorbing messages from the world, many of them are feeling like that's a bit secondary, second class, I don't want to be like a lower tier Christian because I'm just getting married.

And I'm like, that tells me, okay, you have not heard how much God honors marriage, how much marriage is glorifying and good. It's the most typical means of sanctification for most Christians, and we're missing out on really important things by parroting this message over and over.

Let me pull up, this is a Gospel Coalition article. This is a recent one, not an old one, 2023. And in this particular article, it's by Mary Van Wielden. I'm not sure who that is, but it's what not to say to singles, right?

So it goes through a few things you're not supposed to say, like you have to be content before God will give you a spouse. You're so wonderful, why aren't you married yet? Your turn is coming. Don't say these things.

Don't give them any false hope or help them, I guess, anticipate a potential marriage. Instead, and this is what I wanted to focus on, it says what to say instead, and this is the last paragraph here or section of this article.

It says, as you talk with single people struggling with despair and disquiet, remind them that the sweetness of life is here in the days God has ordained for them. Sanctification comes by the work of the Spirit as we wait on the Lord and trust his goodness.

Companionship, community, and precious fellowship with eternal brothers and sisters are ours in the body of Christ as we delve into serving his church and loving his people. To a large extent, single brother or sister, your turn is already here.

But more than that, one great and glorious day, you will meet the bridegroom. The church triumphant, the bride of Christ will worship our God forever. And in that day, dear saint, your turn is coming.

Now, there's so much truth in that, but there's some things that I find disturbing. And so what's your take on that? Because it seems biblical. It seems like it's trying to point people towards a heavenly direction.

It seems like it's trying to spare their feelings in case they do not actually get married and not provide false hope. But what's wrong with that?

It leaves out, it creates a false dichotomy. And the part that is left out is the fact that we are embodied and it is way, so embodied in the sense that God created us, male and female, for a purpose.

And that purpose is good and God-honoring. And that purpose also is how the world is populated. It's where the people come from that we would hope to evangelize and people that would know Jesus. So it's like this is a necessary human fact.

And it sort of, it creates this tension between the hard, real-world realities, flesh and blood, male-female realities that God created, he designed the world this way. And it says, well, once you layer the gospel on top of that, then these physical things don't matter.

And we can downplay them, we can ignore them, because what really matters is your inner piety, your inner walk with God. That's the only thing that really matters. And whether or not you get married really doesn't matter, because as long as you're just hoping in God and trusting in God, then that's the most important thing.

And it just neglects the fact that the means through which God sanctifies us, the way God populates the earth, the way God preserves the next generation of the church, all of these things is the normal means is having children or getting married, having children, raising them in the faith, bringing them into a church community where they're experiencing the gospel, lived out in a variety of people.

These things are normative. They are, and it aligns with the very message that the world is pushing, this demonic message that wants to diminish the image of God on the earth, which is reducing people, reducing population.

It just plays right into that messaging that the world is pushing. And so it's this pietistic neglect or denial of the things that are true. So it's like the gospel is not about getting married and having babies.

The gospel is about loving Jesus, as though those two things are at odds with one another, when really, they're congruent, they come together. And a lot of the ways that God prepares the inner self, the inner man, the inner woman, our love for him is through these normal, ordinary rhythms of just marriage and children and family life.

It's a bizarre twisting, I think. It doesn't make sense why they would say this. And it just seems so obvious that this is a false dichotomy they're creating. And the Gospel Coalition just really published some bizarre things on the subject.

I remember a few years ago, I was in a small group that was connected with a church. It was right near Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary where I went and where I had my MDiv from. Anyway, remember on social media, some of the women in that study connected to the seminary, seminary wives, wives of professors, wives of students, that kind of thing, had a, on Facebook, had like a, one of them posted this, and then you had others chiming in supporting it.

This notion that the churches should not acknowledge Mother's Day because of how hurtful it is for women who don't have children. And for years, my wife and I had struggles with infertility and that kind of thing.

And one of the things that I think, as hard as that can be to want something and not have it, maybe one of the worst things is for someone to tell you it's okay, that you should just be satisfied, right?

That, no, there's something normal about wanting to have kids. And if we excise, this is the thing I guess I'm coming to, Pastor, is if we excise all the things that might offend someone, in this case, because they're single, but you could apply this to almost any group, then you're stripping the ability to rejoice with those who rejoice from your churches.

Like, you can't really have community or body life. There's no sense of togetherness and a place of belonging when it's like, the main focus is just how sensitive can we be to those who are hurting? Maybe those people need to learn, they're the exceptions, and they need to learn to rejoice with those who rejoice.

But that also sounds kind of maybe harsh. And so, as a pastoral, how do you, navigating this, I'm sure with a flock of many university students, how are you pastoral in these things, when people feel that sense of loss because they're not married or because they're not having children, but you don't, how do you strike that, I don't know if balance is the word, but you still maintain body life, you still acknowledge when someone's getting married or you rejoice when they're having a child?

Honoring Motherhood, Rejoicing with Those Who Rejoice, and Caring for the Hurt

Yeah.

Plato famously said, a country cultivates what it honors. Or if you celebrate something, you cultivate what you celebrate, essentially. And what you do, whenever you say, wait, let's not celebrate Mother's Day, then you do the opposite thing.

And you're kind of saying, Mother's Day is something that we want to, or motherhood in general, because people want to be mothers and aren't. For perfectly legitimate reasons, even. Because that will be something that will activate pain within them and we want to care for them.

Then what we're doing is we're saying, through our actions and subtly, that one person's potential pain gets to dictate policy and gets to dictate what we celebrate and uphold as honorable within the church.

And we all have things about us that we don't like, that somebody else excels in and we're weak in. And the Bible has a word for that. Sinful, it could be called envy, the sinful version of that. And so we're basically saying, envy, resentment, discontentment, those things get to drive the agenda of the church.

And the things that the Bible upholds and honors as good and noble and should be honored. Motherhood is glorious and beautiful. I mean, praise God for mothers, for femininity. These things should be honored and celebrated.

And when you don't, and everybody knows, it's kind of conspicuously absent that you don't celebrate these things. You're creating this... It's like the hidden curriculum in a school where we don't talk about it, we don't say it, but everybody knows it.

Motherhood, that's something that we don't really want to touch because we don't want anybody's feelings to get hurt. And when you do that, where does it stop? You find yourself creating an environment where accommodating somebody's pain, which is a good thing in itself to be mindful, but that's something that you do interpersonally.

That's something like, hey, if I'm talking to a woman that I know is barren or she's had a miscarriage or something, I want to speak to her with a certain tenderness and compassion because I know she is suffering.

But that does not determine what I say in the pulpit. That does not determine what holidays we recognize and so forth. And this really has the effect of diminishing the goodness of motherhood. So I think what you could do, I think we just need to counter that.

And that will mean, if you already are in an environment, let's say you have a church that already has this sort of culture, then to turn that culture, you're having to turn things that are not overtly stated on the surface, but you're trying to turn hidden expectations that go against, you're trying to move, and you're always going against people's expectations and that can be difficult for church to adjust to.

But there are subtle things you can do. So one thing we do in my church that I think is really helpful, and this sort of emerged by accident. There's a man that gives announcements in our church. And we have a young church, very fertile church, baby's being born all the time.

And whenever he does announcements, it'll just be like, well, church, want to let you know, so-and-so, the Smith family, their baby was born this week, beautiful baby, baby's name is whatever. And then the first time he did it, everybody just started clapping and cheering.

And so there's this celebration, and I was like, wow, that's pretty cool. And then a few weeks later, there was another baby, and it did it again. And then that has become, that is subtly created, and I wouldn't say incentive, because that's not really an incentive for having babies, but it says like, hey, we honor this.

And of course, people that have miscarriages, we, or if they're infertile, or if there's something like that, the body of Christ, they're in small groups, their struggle is known, and the body of Christ showers them with love, shows them compassion.

Because you have a fertile church, you're gonna have miscarriages, and you're gonna have suffering women. And so they get flowers, they get phone calls, we're praying for you. You're able to have a wide range of emotional life within the church that you can account for.

We want to celebrate and rejoice with those in rejoicing. Praise God for that. We want to mourn and show compassion for those that are in pain. That's good, and that's what the church does. You don't do anybody any favors whenever you accommodate and adjust to pain, or let compassion be the only thing.

That's kind of like the emotion that steers the whole church. You have to be on guard against that. And I think a lot of times, churches have just sort of fallen into that, and it's subconscious. They don't even realize they're doing it.

And it's hard to turn it around once you're there.

Pastoral Wisdom for Singles Who Want to Be Married

So what do you say to single people who want to get married? I know there's some even at my church who they feel like that time is passing them by. And it's sad in a way, because you want to find, the matchmakers all get involved, right?

And they're trying to figure something out. But nothing has seemed to work yet. What do you say to someone like that who experiences maybe even depression, severe emotional problems because of this?

Yeah.

So this is where the very, very difficult pastoral work comes into play. And it's good pastoral work to do because you are thinking about the long-term good of the person you're talking to. So if you have somebody they're getting, they're past the prime years of dating and marriage.

And so there's some practical things. So let's say it is through no fault of their own. Let's say that you have just, you live in an area, and there's just not very many godly men or women. And it's hard to find somebody compatible.

And just the overall dating pool is shrinking for godly Christians. So it's like, hey, we have limited options here. And so you get involved and just practically acknowledge, here are the challenges, but let's help.

Let's help you. What can we do? So I think churches can, there are things that churches could do to sort of throw out a welcome mat for singles. And to say, to be able to communicate, we want to create an environment here where men and women meet each other, and they get married, and they start families.

That's one of the things that we do, that we celebrate that as a church, and word gets around. So you can just sort of try to attract people. The difficult pastoral work is if there is something that is fixable, and you have to have the relationship, you have to have the trust, because you'll spend some of that trust capital to address, there might be something in that person's life.

So some people don't get married for just reasons outside of their control, but otherwise, they are faithful, they're walking with God, and that sort of thing. But there may be things that are within their control.

It could be like, you could have a guy who just, he's too awkward when he talks to a girl. He doesn't know how to interact with her. Or he makes stupid jokes, or he's inappropriate. Or you could have a woman who just doesn't take care of her appearance.

And even to say that, women get upset, especially, because it's like, what do you mean? Godliness is beautiful. Matt Chandler told me that. And so if I'm a godly woman, and I pray, then isn't that enough?

Well, let's not be pietistic here. Yes, godliness should be attractive, and that should be a big draw. But men are men. And it is not bad or wrong or sinful for men to be drawn to a woman because she is physically attractive.

And different men will have different styles or tastes that he's drawn to. The Bible acknowledges this when he talks about the beauty of Rachel. She was beautiful in form and appearance. That's not wrong to acknowledge that and for a man to desire that.

So this is where the, it has to, let me just say, it's like it has to be a church-wide priority, and there has to be wisdom and maturity in how you handle it. But I would say in this situation, it's like, how can the women in particular help here?

Guys can talk to guys. I'm like, hey, dude, you're being a doofus. Don't make that joke. Why do you talk that way? It's like, tuck your shirt in, or present yourself like somebody who's a serious man.

Get a job. Men can do that, but if there are things that are uniquely feminine, the fact of the matter is that there are unique things that make women unattractive that are in her control. Women are used to hearing only messages of affirmation.

They're not used to being challenged because it's like, you go, girl. He doesn't deserve you. You're beautiful.

You're a man. You're perfect.

It's like, for somebody to come along and even suggest, you know what? You might be aiming higher than what's realistic, and who wants to say that? You heartless, wicked, cruel man. But the thing is, we don't wanna be realistic.

We don't wanna live in reality. We want to be like, I'm living in this spiritual world where I'm godly. That means I'm perfect and beautiful, and anybody who doesn't see that, it's their fault, and there isn't anything that I need to do to change.

That's where the real people, it's like you hear about messy community. Life on life, we're doing life together. That means you're going to coffee. What we're talking about, life on life here, is like practically helpful.

Hey, let's address some of these things, and it's like, I know one person in particular wants to be married, isn't getting older. Now I won't even say male or female because of somebody I know in my church.

But I'm like, if you want to be married, you need to show up at church. Be here every Sunday. Come early, stay late. If there's an event, a social, a potluck, be here. Sure, you feel uncomfortable. Sure, you're shy.

Get over that. You can't blame anybody else but yourself if you're not even putting yourself out there.

Practical Standards, Realism, and the Myth of the Soulmate

Yeah, I'm curious. As a pastor, I've had this thought, and it's kind of like when I have shared with my wife before what you're talking about with mutual friends, sometimes who are women, I'll tell my wife, I know that person wants to be married, but if they just put in a little work into their appearance before they, and initially when my wife first heard that out, men are pigs.

It was kind of like, and I'm like, well, I mean, I'm just trying to help here. I'm not gonna say anything to her, but if you want to, to help her. But yeah, I forgot where I was going with that.

I totally forgot where I was going with that.

But go ahead.

I'm thinking moral categories. And so if you say, I think she could work on her appearance a little bit. You're not saying she's unlovable, or she's worthless, or she's in sin in some way. It's like, hey, these are practical things.

And Christians, they want to think practically in certain areas, but when it comes to dating, marriage, things like this, we just want, the inner piety is just off the charts. We don't want to think practically, and that's crippling.

And because it's like, it seems like a moral indictment on somebody's character, and I think that's the pain that singles feel. They already feel exposed as like, oh, you're a spinster. Nobody wants you.

You feel unlovable. And if you talk about it, then that even highlights it more, and it's really painful and difficult. But pastors that really love their people, that's what we got to think long-term.

If you think, you know, I could just ignore this issue. I could never preach on it, never talk about it, never bring up the subject, and only show that person compassion. And so for the rest of their life, they'll be 60, 70, 80 years old, and may never get married, and I get to be the guy that was always compassionate to them.

But what if you could offend them a little bit, maybe a lot even, hurt their feelings, to say, listen, address these areas in your life, and I think your chances will improve. And then maybe the outcome of that could be they think that you're a pig and a jerk, but they actually make those changes, and that leads to good results.

Like, I would rather offend somebody now, hurt their feelings, and I hate doing this. It's like, oh, it makes me sick to challenge somebody in this way. But maybe if you could say something that they might find hurtful now, but it would be, it's like the wounds of a friend.

I'm saying this for your good, bro. Hit the gym. You're fat, you're overweight, you're lazy. You don't have a job. Who would wanna marry you? You're barely making enough money to support yourself.

And I think it's important to note that's not necessarily just, this is not exclusively physical attraction. This is also the ability to actually provide and fulfill responsibilities God has given for a marriage.

So it's saying more about yourself than just, oh, I'm ugly or something like that. That's not really, that's not the entire thing. So I wanted to just, I remember my question now, but I think I wanna introduce it with this stat here.

So this is from, this is a website, 538, but it's the title of this from, it's from last year, Valentine's Day last year. Americans are increasingly single and okay with it. And it cites a Pew research report in 2021 that found that the share of American adults ages 25 to 54 who are married fell by almost 15 percentage points between 1990 and 2019, from 67 to 53%.

The rising share of unmarried people living with a partner accounted for a bit of that drop, but it was mostly driven by people living without a spouse or partner. In 1990, adults were more than twice as likely to be married than on their own.

But by 2019, the gap between the two groups had narrowed considerably. And I'm wondering, and in fact, I'm not even wondering, I know this is also holding up for Christians, the same thing as being, maybe not as severely, but this is showing up in churches where you have people who are in their 30s, 40s, single, sometimes never dated.

And I know some people like that. And for the courtship audience, you can substitute dating courtship, whatever. They haven't had someone that they've been interested in who is also mutually interested pursuing the possibility of marriage.

And I'm wondering how much of this, just like on a macro level, is the result of people's timidity and introvertedness and shyness and laziness. And maybe they're not understanding the role of a husband and wife and thinking it's all about self-serving.

So in other words, it's their issue. And then how much of this is just circumstance that there's just not as many people available? I don't know if I buy that. I mean, what do you think looking at the ministry in your church?

Like, do you think that this is mainly something driven by people and selfish desires or timidity or whatever? Or is this something that's just circumstantial? Because I know there are circumstances.

Social, Ideological, and Churchwide Causes of Delayed Marriage

Yeah.

I think in the church, at least in my church, so I'm speaking from the perspective of my own experience in my church. We have godly men and women. They love Christ. They want to be obedient. We don't have the people who are just fornicating and they're being wild and rebellious because they wouldn't last long in my church because they would feel too uncomfortable at the very least.

But I think there's a cocktail of a number of different issues that play off of one another. There are practical things. Men are trending to the right in terms of, young men are becoming more conservative because the left tells them you're sexist, you're a pig, you have no value.

Only women have value and your contribution to society should be to elevate women. So you have men that's just like there's no message. There's nothing for men on the left. And conservative men, it's like they, or young men hear a positive message of their manhood from the right, especially in the church.