Simply Trinity Study (part 4)

The Need for Negative Theology in Trinitarian Doctrine

Our great God, Father, it is our privilege and our honor to come before you this morning to gather together to worship the Lord Jesus Christ, to thank you, Father, Son, and Spirit for what you've done in and through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Father, work in us today, refine our thinking, help us to better grasp who you are, what you've done, to just deal with the truths surrounding the Trinity that we might better understand you and worship you.

Lord, I pray that you'd bless us and strengthen us, in Jesus' name, amen. And I pray that you would close. Joni, can you get the door since you're coming in? You know, just reading this week, good morning, about the Trinity and listening, I listened to Credo Podcast about it and, you know, some of the things that they talk about are very interesting to me.

When we're trying to explain something, if I tell you how I love my wife, for example, I'm going to talk about her positive qualities, right? I will say that Janet is very patient, Janet is very kind, Janet is very, you know, and I just start saying all these positive things about Janet.

What's interesting is when it comes to the Trinity, sometimes talking in a positive way isn't the most helpful way to do things. Why would that be? Or can you think of a reason why talking about the positive attributes of the Trinity might not be all that helpful?

I'm going to help. One of the reasons why, I mean, it's easy when you go home from Sunday school or when you leave this classroom and you're in the hallways, you just think, I'm going to tell somebody about the Trinity.

And you could say yes, but as soon as you start trying to explain to them, you're going to run into a problem. And that problem is this, I don't know how to fully describe the Trinity. I can't really wrap my arms around the Trinity.

So one of the things that theologians do is they talk in a negative sense. They say, this is what the Trinity is not, okay? So they will say something like, the Son is not less than the Father. That helps us, okay?

The Holy Spirit is not less than the Son or the Father. I'm trying to think of a really good example where we can understand that sense of negation. But that's what they do. And let me just kind of, as we're going back to the quiz here this morning.

By the way, anybody not have a copy of the quiz? I had a little issue with the printer this morning. I mean, I don't understand it. That's all right. I don't understand it because I asked the printer very nicely to print for me.

And then I walk away from the printer. I come back and the printer didn't do it. I kind of feel like I was dealing with one of my kids. Would you do this for me? Absolutely, dad. And I come back and it's not done.

One more, two, four, okay. Anybody else? Going, going, going. Whew, glad I saved one. All right. So, what negation does is it basically puts fences around things. It helps us by defining things that, you know, outside of these parameters, we can't go.

Arius, Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Firstborn of All Creation

So, we're at number seven, I believe. Number six, true or false, adoptionism means Jesus became a son of God. His incarnation, that's false. True or false, I think we did number seven, but I'll just recap that briefly.

True or false, Arius went to great lengths to keep the nature of the son separate from the father. And that's true. And I said, how many have the book here? Anybody have their book with them? If you, I mean, I tried to, you know, this is where my computer skills are lacking.

I tried to pull this diagram out and it was just funky. It helps to see his, Arius's effort here. And what he essentially did, and I'll do it by hand. What he essentially did was he said, look, here's the father.

See, I'm going to do it by hand, literally. He said, here's the father. Here's all of creation. And he said, here's the son over on the side. A separate creation, okay, not part of this, above all the rest of creation, but not the father and not eternal.

So, I mean, he tried to separate the two and he went so far as to be wrong and heretical. And that, well, that's one of the problems with the Trinity, right? It's hard to not be a heretic. That'd be a good name for the class.

How not to be a heretic. Okay, and let's see. So, Barrett says about Arius, he says, for Arius, the son is not begotten from eternity. He has a beginning. And that's interesting because if you talk to Jehovah Witnesses, if you talk to Mormons, if you talk to a number of these other folks.

Did I mention the Jehovah Witness who called my house? Yeah, they called my house. Okay, so I just told Lisa, so Lisa's going to have to bear with me. So, it's about ten days ago, the phone rings and, you know, you get a lot of spam calls.

I mean, I could ask who gets spam calls, but everybody gets spam calls. Of course, I could say, how many of you have a house line? And probably not too many do. And people are like, what do you have that for?

All you get is spam calls. Well, that's true, except that way I don't get as many on my cell phone. I hardly ever get one on my cell phone. And I don't know why, but that delights me. So, phone rings and somebody started, he asked me, I think, you know, his initial question was, you know, I think he was shocked that he got to talk to a person.

And then he said, you know, something like, are you interested in spiritual things or something like that? And I said, yes, and we started talking. And eventually he asked me and I thought this was funny because I started like rebutting what he was saying, knowing that it was a Jehovah witness.

I mean, it took like two seconds to realize that because frankly, no Christian would call me, which is kind of sad. But anyway, he says, eventually he goes, are you a Mormon? And I said, no. And he said, Catholic?

No. He's like, what are you? And I said, I mean, not even wanting to narrow things down and not wanting to give him anything. I just said, I'm a Protestant. Could have said I was a Baptist, could have said I was a pastor.

I didn't do any of that. I just said, you know, I'm a Protestant. And what was interesting to me is of all the places in the Bible where a Jehovah witness might take you to prove his case, where do you think he went?

Colossians is correct. Colossians 1. Colossians 1 verse 18. And I just thought, I mean, as soon as he said that, I started rubbing my hands together. I was like, perfect, awesome. So let's look at Colossians 1 for a minute because I thought, this is where I wanted to go, so excellent.

I'm going, thank you for doing my work for me. As soon as you're talking to a cultist, you think, okay, how do I give this man the gospel? How do I tell him, you know, he doesn't believe that Jesus is eternally God?

How do I convince him that he is eternally God? So Colossians 1 .15, he goes, would you read it? And I said, I've got tears running down my face. I'm just so delighted. Yeah, sure. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

And what do you think he does? Firstborn, firstborn, firstborn. How do you answer that? He says, well, he's the firstborn, which is good, right? For by him, all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things were created through him and for him.

And he is before all things. And in him, all things hold together. Now that pretty much sounds like what? God. It's kind of hard to get around that, right? But he wants to focus on firstborn. Why? Makes it sound like he's created because he is an Arian.

He is a spiritual descendant of Arius. What's the problem with that emphasis on firstborn? What's that? It's his position. That's very good. And let's see what the non-authorized version says about that.

The firstborn of all creation. Paul is not saying that the son was the first created being. In the Old Testament, the firstborn son was the principal heir of an estate. And the term is used metaphorically to express the preeminence of David and his dynasty.

Used of Christ, the term firstborn ascribes to him supremacy, honor, and dignity. He is the greater David and the father's principal heir. Christ is especially loved by his father. Which is right. I said to him, and this is just something to put in your pocket and save for another day.

I said, well, the Greek word there is prototokos, which means preeminent. And you're like, yeah, sure, I'll just whip that out. But if you hear it enough, you will. It means preeminence. And I said, just think about it.

Was he the firstborn in history? The answer is no. And I started going down this road, and then I just realized, you know what? This is all pointless. This guy was obviously, now this is going to sound sad and ageist of me, but he's even older than I am.

I'm listening to him and I'm going, that's an old man I'm talking to. And if I say that, he's really old. So I thought, what does he need? He needs the gospel. So I just go, let me just tell you about Jesus.

And so I just went through the whole thing. And I said, let me ask you this. I said, if I listen to you, how do I get to heaven? What was his answer? Yeah, well, it would be do this and do this. But instead, he was honest and he said, I lad.

I mean, if he was Irish, he'd say, I just got it. Oh, Patrick, he'd go, Oh, Patrick, heaven is full. Don't you know, the best you can do is hope for an aisle seat on earth. I mean, they don't believe Jehovah witnesses.

Don't believe that you can get into heaven. Heaven's full. It's 144 ,000 and you didn't make the cut too late for you. So the best you could do, like I said, is, you know, maybe a good bus ride on earth.

It's just, you know, sad times. But this is, this is, you know, when we, when we do this, when we walk through kind of church history and what people have done in the past, it's helpful because like my wife often tells me, like three times a day, at least, there's nothing new under the sun.

There is nothing new under the sun. So all these heresies just get recycled. And you say, well, what are we talking about areas for? Because areas is alive and well, this is the Jehovah witnesses. This is Mormons.

This is any number of cults that pop up and say, Jesus isn't God. You know, how silly can you be to believe in the Trinity? We need some soundproofing in this building. What is that? If those are the ladies, I'm going to be firing tear gas up there.

Yeah. I mean, even Islam has like elements of Aryanism because they say, Jesus is a prophet. He, God has, but they would say he has no son, but he's definitely a created being. Now we come to verse eight.

Now that I've given that all away, true or false, because of Colossians one 15, we can be assured that Jesus is the first created being. I hope you got false. And then I have in my notes, you know, the word prototic us, which means pertaining to having special status.

So that's the idea there of, and it says of Christ as the firstborn of a new humanity, which is to be glorified as it. So if you wanted to think about it that way, would that be correct? Yes. Okay. Number nine, since we've already covered number eight, number nine, how do we know that the glory of God was not given to Jesus as a gift?

Cause that's another areas theory, right? That, that God shares his glory. He sees what Jesus has done and therefore he gives Jesus his glory. Can you think of a scripture that, yeah, that's amazing. Did you look at my notes?

John, John 17 five. And now father, listen, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. That's pretty rough, you know, to think that Jesus is created when you hear that kind of language, John 17 five.

Well, I, I think so because I think he's pointing to his post resurrection, you know, glory, um, you know, in his prayer. I, I think it's, you know, along the lines of, I, I know it's time for me to go.

So, you know, let's, let's get this thing on the, on the road, praying for that. So here's what, uh, area said via Barrett in his book, Jesus is creation's mediator before God. He is not from the very being of God, but the effect or product of God's will external to God, so kind of like the diagram I was trying to enact, you know, I don't think I won any Emmys, but he's external to God as privileged as he is.

As the first of creation, the glory of God is bestowed upon him as a gift. The one monarch God remains incomprehensible to the sun for he is not a sun by nature, but by grace. I mean, that's, I, I've said this before.

I'll say it again right now. Here's what, um, heretics like areas do inevitably. They try to make God comprehensible. They try to make God something we can wrap our arms around. And so they also do that with the Trinity.

They say, look, if, if you just kind of, if you take what the creeds and confessions have always said about God, if you take what the theologians have said about God, you're never going to understand him.

So let me explain what he's like. He's really not that different from you and me. And so Jesus is just the ultimate. I mean, this is the road to liberalism to where you're talking about it yesterday morning.

This is a road to liberalism. Jesus is the ultimate example. He's the ultimate man, but that's what he is. He's man. He's a special man, but that's all he is. Yeah. There has to be some kind of special relationship between the father and the son, because there's definitely, um, you know, that, that glory that exists only with God, that is bestowed upon, uh, Jesus.

And Isaiah 42 verse eight. Um, yeah. And, and, you know, I, I would have to study this, but I would, I would tend to think because as soon as you said, Isaiah 42, what did I think? You're like, I have no idea, Steve, your, your, your mind is cloudy and opaque and filled with cobwebs to me.

I have no idea whatsoever. But what I started thinking was in fact, um, uh, this Bible, this is not inspired, but it says right above Isaiah 42, the Lord's chosen servant. Why? This is one of those passages in Isaiah, along with Isaiah 49, Isaiah 53, Isaiah 56.

They're called servant songs. Okay. And they have to do with Christ. So I haven't studied Isaiah 42 verse eight, but there's a, there's a possibility that this is actually the pre-incarnate Christ that is being, that is speaking here.

Um, but that's speculation. Don't hold me to it. I haven't read a commentary or anything on it recently. So, uh, I am the Lord. That is my name. And my glory, I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.

So it could be either like what Charlie was saying, that it's the father saying, I won't give my glory to another, but the son has the glory. So therefore, obviously the son and the father are one, or this could be the pre-incarnate Christ.

And it's just a statement of Trinity saying, um, the trinity of God saying, there's nobody else but me, which he says all throughout this whole section, not just in Isaiah 42, but Isaiah 43 and on and on and on.

You'll see these passages, Isaiah 44. I know it's there too, where God says, basically there are no other gods. All these other things are idols. You know, I'm, I am. It's good. Yeah. Dave, I probably wouldn't.

That's a good question. What do you think? Okay. And I would agree with that. I think it specifically talks, it's talking about the glory of deity. Yes. Number 10, true or false. It is insufficient to say merely that the father and son are one in will.

The Eternal Generation of the Son and the Meaning of “Begotten”

You know how I know it's true. The infallible yellow, uh, highlighter. It never makes a mistake. Uh, let's see. So question, this is, I believe all out of the book with areas is emphasis on the subordination of the sun.

What is, what is it then that unites the father and the son? Aryan isms answer. In other words, areas is answer. The unity cannot be a unity of being, but can only be a unity of will. So that's what the Aryans will say.

That's what the Mormons will say. That's what I used to say when I was a Mormon. Well, what in what, in what sense, when Jesus says, I and the father are one, what did he mean? He meant a unity of will.

They say not a unity of being. The problem is let's look at John 10 verses 27 to 33. Jesus speaking. He says, my sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life and they will never perish and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Now that statement all by itself. I mean, does that not sound like God? I will give them eternal life. Who can give eternal life? They will never perish. That's a pretty good promise and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Again, that's either a, you know, a crazed man, delusional man, or that's God in the flesh. Verse 29, my father who has given them to me is greater than all and no one is able to snatch them out of the father's hand.

Nobody can take them out of my hand. Nobody can take them out of the father's hand. Then he says in verse 30, I and the father are one. Now somebody might say, well, they're one in will. That's the point.

And as Corey said a moment ago, keep reading. Verse 31, the Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them. I've shown you many good works from the father for which of them are you going to stone me?

Which just reminds me of, you know, Peter and John going on trial before the Sanhedrin. And they say, are you putting us on trial for healing that guy? That doesn't seem right. You know, it's kind of the same thing here.

Are you guys going to stone me for, for the good works I'm doing? Verse 33, the Jews answered him. It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but for blasphemy, because you being a man, make yourself God.

The original audience, the Jewish leadership, listen to Jesus. And what did they conclude? Not, you know, this Jesus, he's a pretty holy man. Or this Jesus, he's kind of a nut. They decided he was claiming to be God, not united in purpose with God, but claiming to be God.

And, you know, what would be the easy thing for Jesus to do here? Yeah. Verse 34, he ought to just have started and said, wait a minute, guys, power down. That's not what I'm saying. But he doesn't do that.

Oh, I thought you were going to ask a question. Okay. I mean, you know, if he's not God, if he's a created being, if he is, you know, the firstborn, so to speak, if he's not God, come in the flesh, then we would expect him to say, well, hold your horses.

Take it easy. Take a breath. Take a beat. He doesn't do that. Yes. I'm just a guy. Now, what's the problem with that? Well, besides that, if we, if we look at the Psalm, isn't it? Is it Psalm 82? Is that what it is?

Because I think, you know, even the Mormons would say something like that. Actually, what they do is they use the, his citation of Psalm 82 to say what? That they can become gods. Right. You know, that was Jesus's point.

Was it really? Hey, Jesus, we're going to stone you for making yourself out to be God. Well, you know, if I could just be honest with you guys for a second, you can be gods too. What's that? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It's so easy. Psalm 82. Verse six. I said, you are gods. Sons of the most high, all of you. And then you have to keep reading verse seven. Nevertheless, like men, you shall die and fail like any Prince.

It's pretty hard to take that and apply that in that sense to Jesus. What he was really saying there is even in, um, the Jewish leaders had power over life and death. And that was true in the old Testament.

But that's, you know, I mean, he, he's, he's making an analogy there, but he's not saying you guys can become gods or even I'm not really God. I'm just kind of, you know, powerful like, uh, you guys are.

I mean, over and over again, he makes this, the statements that lead to only one possible conclusion that he is God. Other thoughts, questions, comments. Yes. Andrew, the exact imprint of his nature in Hebrews one, three, and he upholds the universe.

Good. Excellent. I mean that, you know, he is, uh, I think the, the Greek word is icon. You know, he, he's, and, and I think it's good, not, not from a physical, you know, resemblance, obviously that the son perfectly ident or perfectly represents the father, but it's this kind of spiritual and in power in every way.

Um, the son is exactly like the father. Good. Yes. Yep. Yeah. If you've seen me, you've seen the father. Yes. Yeah. I mean, now you could use that in what sense? I mean, and I have to, I'll just skip to the, the funny thing.

I think I've mentioned this before, but how many of you have ever dealt with Mormon missionaries? Have you ever seen their film? Because when they show you like a little presentation, I guess back in the days when, you know, I was a kid, they would even, um, they had like little films, but they also had little presentations.

They would bring little boards, you know, storyboard kind of things. But when they would show Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, when he was 14, going and praying in the, in the forest and God, the father would appear to him, not just speak to him.

Right. But actually appear to him this. And of course, God, the father had a body, you know, was a, a pure like, well, actually what he looked like was a very, uh, white guy with gray hair and, you know, gray beard and all that.

And then his son, he, cause he would introduce his son who would then appear. And they look like twins. That's not the sense in which, you know, in which he, Jesus is speaking. They don't look alike. You know, that's not, that's not the point.

In fact, what did Jesus say about the father in John chapter four? He's spirit. He's spirit. God is a spirit. That's, you know, if we just think about it this way, that the great marvel of the incarnation, and for whatever reason, I want to say incantation, but incarnation isn't that, uh, you know, a baby was born.

It was the eternal spirit. The second person of the Trinity took on human flesh and came into his creation. I mean, if, if God, the father is a glorified man, as the Mormons would have it. And Jesus comes and he's a man.

Well, the incarnation is not that special. The incarnation is not that different. What makes it gloriously different and unique? Is it Jesus? Eternally God without a human body takes on a human body. A human nature becomes one person with two natures.

Yeah. Yeah. If he looks like anybody, he probably looks like Mary. Yep. Agreed. And not a European, uh, dude with, with all that. So with it, with a neatly trimmed white man's beard. I mean, it looks like, you know, he just stepped out of GQ or something.

The Son Is Not Inferior in Works or Obedience

Okay. Number 11. Number 11. In some ways, are we on 11? Yeah, we are. Okay. Number 11, true or false. In some ways, the actions of the son are inferior to those of the father. Sounds pretty false. And let's see, let's see what the highlighter says.

False. False. Um, don't miss this with such an emphasis on will. Arianism is not only an ontological subordination, but a functional subordination. I'm going to go to the judges. What does that mean? Okay.

So he's a lesser being according to Arianism, which would be consistent with Jehovah witnesses, consistent with the Mormons. And I'm sure there are some other cults out there that, you know, we're not talking about here today, but, um, he's not only in being lesser, but he has a lesser role.

In other words, the son is in fear, not only as a person, but in his actions. So here are some, uh, versus that, that I came up with. That's amazing. That would, would kind of refute that, uh, John five 36.

But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John for the works that the father has given me to accomplish the very works that I am doing. Bear witness about me that the father has sent me. In other words, these works are exactly what the father wanted.

Um, John 10, 37 and 38. If I'm not doing the works of my father, then do not believe me the very works of my father, then do not believe me. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works that you may know and understand that the father is in me and I am in the father.

I think that's a pretty clear statement about his essential equality, equality in essence, equality in action. John 14, 10 and 11. Do not, do you not believe that I am in the father and the father is in me?

The words that I say to you do not speak, or I do not speak on my own authority, but the father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the father and the father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

He wouldn't point to inferior works and say, believe in these works. I mean, there are so many terms that have to be defined there. Charlie, you're not helping me with active obedience. Active obedience means that Jesus, what?

Obeyed. Yes. Perfectly obeyed the law. Yeah. Just like, no, stop. So we fully obeyed the law. That's active obedience. What was the rest of the question? I'm like, I had to just, you know, transcribe that as we ever go along.

Okay, stop. Yes. Active obedience, fully obeying the law. We go to heaven. Why? Because Jesus obeyed in our place. In other words, it's not enough that it's wonderful. Don't get me wrong. It's not enough that Jesus died for our sins.

That does what for us? Gets us back to zero. Then we need the righteousness without which no one will see heaven. Right? Where does that righteousness come from? There are two possible options. One is us, which is what many people believe in.

Many false religions teach. Yes. And I think it is Roman Catholic, right? They believe that baptism gets you back to neutral. And then how do you get to heaven? You get to heaven by your works. Okay. So, so we're tracking with Charlie so far.

I see. I hope if I drag this on long enough, he'll forget his question. Don't think I'm not trying that. Okay. So his righteousness is, you know, well, it meets this. Let's put it this way. If we just think Jesus said, be there for perfect, right?

Matthew 5, 48. You have to be perfect to inherit the kingdom of heaven. And that's what he does. He perfectly obeys so that, yes, those who are in Christ can enter into heaven. And why? Because we, through Christ, have met the standard of perfection.

That is demanded. Yes. Andrew. Yeah. He used to believe that he, yeah. I mean, our, our, our best works are tainted by sin. They're, you know, and his having no sin, they are really, they're true righteousness.

They're true. I, I don't remember where I saw this, but I'll just, oh, you know what? It must've been in, uh, uh, Machen. Uh, just the idea of talking about true righteousness, just this idea that everything.

And now I just forgot what I was going to say. Um, but it's this, the perfections of Christ are, you know, basically, uh, I don't want to say they're assigned to us, but they're granted to us. They're imputed to us.

And, uh, and that's where, you know, part of where I was going, I forget the rest of it. So it doesn't really matter. It wasn't, it wasn't, uh, meant to be. It's like, you know, when, when I make a mistake and I'm like, well, you know, that mistake was exactly what the Lord ordained.

So he did. I mean, it's, you know, it's all of the Lord. So, okay.

Begotten, Not Made, and the Eternal Sonship of Christ

Uh, so we read that, did that boy. Number 12. Uh, let's see. Yeah. Let's see if we can do that. Maybe number 12, there is a difference true or false. There is a difference between being begotten and being made.

You guys are pretty good today. Yeah. Uh, yeah. The highlighter says true. So it is true. Notice in the Nicene Creed, the emphasis on the eternal generation of the sun, he is begotten. And by the way, the Nicene Creed was written in response to whom or what areas, uh, you know, this is a time of year where we like to celebrate St. Nick punching, uh, you know, areas.

Uh, I've seen so many of those. I wish I was doing like overhead projectors cause I do the whole, you know, St. Nick thing, but it's okay. Uh, notice in the Nicene Creed, the emphasis on the eternal generation of the sun, he's eternally generated.

That means to say that before anything was, he was generated of the father. He is begotten from the father, but by begotten, the Nicene fathers did not mean what the Arians meant that Jesus is created.

No, the sun is begotten, not made. There's a difference for us. Creatures to be begotten is to come into existence for the first time. Areas was so literal in his thinking that he could not understand the biblical metaphor.

When applied to God defies any limitations it might have in our world. Yes, the sun is begotten. That is the very definition of a son, but since this is the eternal, infinite, immutable, and impassable God, we are talking about the sun's generation is internal, infinite, immutable, and impassable, meaning he can have no beginning as creation does.

Now here's, here's the problem for us. We think father means, I mean, before I had any children, was I a father? No. And so what do we do? We think to ourselves, well, the father, in order to be a father, had to have a son, right?

A child. And since they're obvious, since that's a process, then there was a time when God was not the father. True or false? False. Okay. Because being a son has a beginning, then Jesus was not always the son.

False. And, and, you know, but then we start thinking, well, that's impossible. Well, what's our problem? We're bound by time. We're creatures. We're using our own logic, and our own reason, and our own understanding of what it is to do this, and to do this, and to do this, but we're all in time, right?

Yes, Corey. Yeah. Like, uh-huh. Words of accommodation. Yes, yes, yes. I, I like that word because it helps us. It's an accommodation. Like the Bible says, God has an arm, you know, his mighty arm can save.

God, the Bible says that God can, you know, his eye is, you know, on the sparrow, whatever it says, you know, there. Um, he hears this, and he bends his ear to do this, and, you know, all these kinds of things.

Well, are those things true? Well, yes, in a sense, but in the big picture, there are accommodations. There, there, there are pictures given to us so that we can go. Oh, so God hears my prayers in the same way.

You know, I hear my wife say, Steve, put that down, don't eat it. Um, and that's not, that's not correct, right? I mean, that's a, because he knows everything, and he's everywhere, and all these things, but, you know, for us to just kind of wrap our arms around it and go, okay, I understand that God is omniscient, and he's, you know, he knows everything.

He's everywhere. He hears everything. He did, you know, did it. Those things are overwhelming to us. So we have these accommodations of scripture, just like with the father and the son. So to help us understand, Dave, it's a good question.

We'll save it for next week. I'm just like, repeat the question. Okay. I, I, I have to, I have to back up. I have to back up for a second because I don't, there's a word you put in there that I really don't like.

What's the word? Just, I, I don't like that. Um, because they're not just terms of accommodation. They do help us understand it, but in some way they do describe the relationship between the two of them, right?

They help us to understand more about the father because he is eternal. And in fact, theologians would describe him as what? Unbegotten. Okay. Um, and he is kind of the, see, I don't want to say this without, you know, I'm about to, Steve's about to step into heresy.

Uh, we, we, we would, we would readily say that the spirit, you know, is of the same substance as the son and the father. And the son is of the same substance as the father. But it's a little harder to say, for example, that the father is of the same substance as this, you know, because he has that.

He, he is ultimately the source. And, you know, well, does that mean he was first? No, because again, we were wanting to put things in a time and we have to close. But I, I just, again, I want to give you this picture.

If we just, I think it helps us a lot. If we stop thinking about time as necessarily being bigger than the universe, you know, that time is the thing that holds everything together. That's false. Time is a creation and time is, I think it's fair to say for God, it's not different, much different than a place.

Like, you know, you say, why I want to go to Aruba. We'll then go to Aruba, right? God says, I want to, you know, do something in time. Well, that's something he has to like, because he's outside of time.

And we tend to neglect that and tend to forget that and tend to make our thoughts of God. Too human. So we want to constrain him in the same way that we're constrained and we ought not to do that, but we have to close.

We're, we're out of time. So let's close in prayer and we can pick up Dave's question here next week. Father, we thank you for some of this is, frankly, it's, it's kind of mind bending and, and, you know, it's awe inspiring, but this is good.