Cultish - Congressmen William D. Upshaw Pt. 3

Apologia Studios

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Cultish - William Branham's End Times Visions & The Serpent Seed, Pt. 4

00:00

Stay away from Israel Stay away from it all you people talk about converting the

00:05

Jews before this message is over You'll see it's dust sayeth the Lord by word and by spirit. Amen Israel be converted over the whole nation in one night

00:15

Bible said so but the gospel is not even to them There's a few renegades that's out and so forth like that They come in and outside the main body of Jews that come in and get saved.

00:25

That's true All right Welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults.

00:33

My name is Jeremiah Roberts. I'm One of the co -hosts here. I'm here as always with Andrew my trusted sidekick and super sleuth.

00:41

How you doing, man? I'm doing well doing well Just trying to recuperate from learning about the history in the last couple episodes about William Branham and Roy Davis Yes, and we are continuing to go down the rabbit hole into the 1920s lots of fascinating Historical events surrounding the involvement of William Branham the message the brand of my it's quite a crazy first two episodes

01:06

We are back here with John Collins. How are you my friend? I'm good.

01:11

It's good to be back. Good. Good. I appreciate you come come back and join us on We had a blast in the first two episodes And so what you just heard there and we'll unravel this was some very

01:21

Kind of shocking when I first hear that I mean, I don't get surprised too often here at cold just because we've dealt with all sorts of interesting topics and and kind of audacious and over -the -top claims about something but that one kind of was what to maybe take a step back and just said to myself wow, that's a pretty audacious statement for someone to be a prophet of God and we'll talk the reason why we played that is

01:44

We are going to unravel the origin the continued origins of where? William Branham went from after he established the brand tabernacle and establish his relationship with Roy Davis We'll be interesting another character in just a moment here

01:58

But a John just real quickly can you just tell everyone again where people can find you and if they want to go deeper?

02:03

Because again, we're only scratching the surface as many episodes. We're going to cover Where can people find you if they want to look deeper into the content we're discussing?

02:12

Everything we're discussing is on William dash Branham org you can also find it in my book on Amazon preacher behind the white hoods a critical examination of William Branham and his message and you can also find me on the newsletters in alternative

02:29

Considerations of Jonestown and People's Temple. Mm -hmm. Yes. Yeah, definitely appreciate that We're definitely excited to see how this transitions was given into the story of this connection with Jim Jones given the initial research and Episodes we did when we initially launched cultists.

02:46

So we're definitely looking forward to that. Oh, yeah, so maybe you talked about this The person we're actually gonna talk about today is someone by the name of Not Roy Davis William D Upshaw really

02:59

William D Upshaw Yes, which just it just sounds like a name someone a name that you would call someone in the 1920s

03:05

Yeah, you know like I know that I'm William D Upshaw and Yeah, but yeah, I could see him like with a snidely whiplash mustache

03:12

You know with a tall hat kind of looking as fancy and extra as you could during the 1920s, but he was a congressman and What I found just fascinating just about some of the history.

03:22

This is one well, I think what we'll find out is indicative of just the underlying worldviews that William Branham was

03:29

Developing with its influence of the Roy Davis and his connection to the Ku Klux Klan and again as you mentioned the last episode

03:35

It wasn't just this sort of antagonism towards black But it was also towards Jewish people as well too and others as well

03:43

So that's where I think some of the underlying tones came from So we're focusing in for this next part of this segment on William Branham on William Upshaw so can just start from the beginning.

03:55

Can you just tell us a little bit about him? How he evolved where he came from and how did he could get connected to Branham and Roy Davis?

04:04

I Think that's really what surprised me the most was learning the deep roots that Upshaw had with The with the story that's building up behind the scenes of William Branham Upshaw Interestingly is is a person out of all of the people that I cover in my research

04:25

That I almost didn't research because he was he was very much a supporter of the message the cult that William Branham created and Like like all of the other men that I came across that were very

04:43

You know very supportive of the cult usually the backgrounds are

04:50

They're very similar. They're just men who are you know? Pentecostals or Pentecostal supporters who were in the movement in the healing movement and they were looking to Gain some following of their own

05:06

Upshaw Followed William Branham around during the last years of his life claiming to have been healed in one of the meetings and I almost discredited the whole thing is just you know part of the stage act.

05:19

All right, right I didn't realize that he was part of the creation Hmm Whenever I found out that that Roy Davis William Branham's mentor was the one who introduced

05:33

Upshaw in a wheelchair in one of the meetings to be healed and I had just learned that Upshaw.

05:40

I just learned that Davis was So deep with the white supremacy groups

05:47

I knew there must be more to the story of Upshaw is making if Davis is making this connection of Upshaw So that's really what made me start digging in to to learn more about who is

05:59

William Upshaw okay, and so when when congressman Upshaw when he

06:04

Went was he a congressman at the time that he went in this healing service or did become a congressman later on He was not

06:11

So his a broad spectrum of his history from at least the parts that I'm aware of until his death congressman

06:21

Upshaw was Was injured at a very early age and he spoke from wheelchair and later on crutches in his early years, but He became a

06:39

United States congressman in the want to say it was around the 20s 1920s and Later he actually ran for president himself on the prohibition ticket

06:54

It was after that failed and he Sort of disappeared from the scene for a few years that he basically reemerged with Roy Davis.

07:04

Mm -hmm Okay fascinating and so when he so he went to a healing service with William Branham and that's where something's changed as far as he had a was he do you believe he experienced some sort of healing or was this something where it was kind of a psychosomatic thing or was it kind of one of those bait -and -switch things which a lot of healers are kind of known for Because this is something, you know,

07:29

William Bram didn't really grow up around a religious background He was kind of fascinated by this these whole aspects and he's brought into this.

07:35

Like how did that? What was the nature of him being at that healing service? Well so this was at a time whenever the

07:46

The message as it was called back then was it was more the latter rain message

07:52

There were lots of you know ministers from all over the world who were joining in To what was becoming the healing revival and Upshaw himself was a

08:07

Christian evangelist He was known as the Billy Sunday of Congress because he had speaking engagements preaching while doing politics and You know mixing religion with politics while he was

08:21

He was He had been on Crutches he hadn't been on a wheelchair apparently since the like 1915

08:32

So the fact that he entered into this healing this meeting to be healed in a wheelchair is a little surprising, right?

08:39

but I Don't I don't know the specifics of what? You know what the motive or intent was behind it, but I can see that there was a lot of publicity that happened because of it

08:56

It it could be that he was part of the stage act or it could be that there was more to the story I just I don't know yeah there's a weird like dichotomy being presented in terms of like the stage persona or the creation of the healing movement with Branham because it's been noted in the book that that Upshaw was actually physically caught running on the

09:15

Congress floor right like so right so it's not like he he literally was stuck in a wheelchair and Went when he if he would have been caught physically running on the

09:26

Congress floor that would have been before He even met William Branham. Is that correct? Yes, he was a he was a congressman.

09:34

I believe until like 1927, right? Yes, and it wasn't until the 50s that he he came in and met met with William Branham So yeah, and I look back at just the medical science, right?

09:47

so if he was in a wheelchair in the 1915s and then I'm familiar with the article you're referring to they they said basically he was running down the

09:57

Congress floor And his crutches were barely even touching the ground, right? So people were questioning are these crutches a prop?

10:04

Why does he using his crutches? well, I'm picturing a man who only needs crutches who's entering in front of this audience in this wheelchair and The thought that came to my mind was even different than that Medical science that progressed enough where it'd be very easy to put a brace on the leg

10:23

Mm -hmm. So even if he still had some sort of an injury, right he could have stood So there's there's a lot of things at play right potentially maybe maybe there was some sort of injury, but a kind of over Traumatization of the injury in order to gain empathy and maybe that was a core part of his identity

10:42

Almost in the same sense. I don't know. I'm just kind of shooting from the hip here but you think about Dan Crenshaw who's the congressman out in Texas and he is a former

10:51

Navy SEAL and You know, he lost one of his eyes and in a combat injury So he's kind of known as the congressman who has the eyepatch, right?

11:00

So that's kind of his thing, right? So I don't know what so maybe in the same way was that an aspect to where he's kind of using this foot injury

11:06

It may be his way while he's in Congress to maybe have empathy towards people It's possible.

11:12

He had made that's the other interesting part He had made quite a name for himself as a public speaker and an author

11:20

Since a very early age he was nationally known and People recognized him for his injury

11:29

The injury was a big part of his life story. So whenever he is getting these speaking engagements

11:36

It's about a man who had a very horrific thing happen to him and he came back from that So it

11:43

I can see that as part of his persona, yeah, so so how did um So Upshaw gets to this healing like tabernacle movement or but but how does he get there?

11:54

So there's there's another character that William Upshaw meets and that's Roy Davis. He seems to be everywhere

12:00

How did that relationship develop between Upshaw and Davis? To understand that it would probably cover the next 20 podcasts

12:11

Davis is everywhere, but Exactly, but you have to go back to the beginning, right?

12:17

So William Upshaw was a congressman in the state of Georgia and Georgia was one of the first if not the first dry state they

12:29

He Upshaw was worked with the anti -saloon League. He was the vice president he he stood for a lot of things that I In the you know growing up in this movement myself,

12:41

I would have agreed with all of them at that time. Mm -hmm He was a very very outspoken supporter of William Joseph Simmons the leader of the

12:53

Ku Klux Klan and He was involved deeply with the Klan at the same time that Roy Davis was the spokesperson the official spokesperson for the

13:03

Klan Okay So it's it's likely that they knew each other from you know back in 1915

13:12

The earliest that I can really tie them both together is around 19 I guess that's 1917 or 18 whenever Davis has got his speaking engagements

13:25

Wow fascinating and so yeah, it just makes me think about to I mean back then you would have a lot

13:32

Because this is pre civil rights era this is right around this is almost around the Jim Crow era

13:37

That it would make more you just I'm sure there there had to be other people besides Congressman Upshaw who had views like this.

13:45

I mean you think about you know a couple years ago He's passed away now, but there it was a Democratic senator named

13:50

Robert Byrd who historically he was a member as well The Ku Klux Klan, but it would make sense that at least from my perspective that at least during this time

13:58

Know that this is just part of the normative culture to view these sorts of things and and also when you talk about The undue influence that a cult has in sometimes in regards to a town

14:12

Similar to when we cover the Church of Wells how they may influence you know different people possibly even members of law enforcement who might be a

14:20

Member of the cult or possibly people on you know the chairman of the board and such So this is a situation where you have someone that holds these worldviews, and he was known as a

14:30

Billy Sunday So how did but he it wasn't until the 1950s or so when they when he met

14:37

William Branham? right so Like how is the connection because we're still kind of around the 1920s

14:45

Is there a point where these worldviews sort of accumulated leading up to the 1950s or what what's that?

14:52

What's the how do they mesh together? That's that's really where I've been trying to dig and trying to see exactly how deep the connection runs

15:01

I can tell you how they met and I'll build up to that. There's some background you have to understand first. Okay, but so these these two men

15:10

Roy Davis and William Upshaw were in the Ku Klux Klan at the same time and If you remember it wasn't long after that that Davis was in Jeffersonville, Indiana starting the church that William Branham took over, right?

15:25

So the where I focused my research in the book and I tried to go as deep as I could find information was

15:33

I knew that Davis was up influencing influencing William Branham and I had stumbled across the fact that Upshaw and Davis were working together, you know earlier in the early 1920s

15:46

So I wanted to know Were these two men also working together whenever they were with William Branham and I came across this quote that is very interesting

15:57

William Branham when he's Speaking about Roy about William Upshaw in his meeting.

16:03

He claims that he'd never heard of William Upshaw and Growing up and hearing this

16:09

I heard it many times I've never gave it a second thought because I had never heard of William Upshaw except for you know except for some this religion

16:20

But whenever I started trying to research William Upshaw, I actually had difficulty because he was so well -known

16:28

That on any given day during his almost his entire lifespan There are articles from coast to coast about William Upshaw.

16:36

He was that popular that famous so then

16:42

I had to realize that There was there was likely an influence whether it was directly or indirectly and there would have been an influence because Upshaw was

16:51

He was in in these, you know, these religious circles so I Decided I was going to dig deeper and find out

16:59

Now knowing that Roy Davis is in the Klan. I wanted to know was Upshaw also in the

17:05

Ku Klux Klan Hmm Man very interesting.

17:11

Look at the web is just so deep. Yeah, you know and it's a it blows it blows my mind

17:17

Quite honestly just just to hear how deep it goes. So so in terms of William Upshaw and Roy Roy Davis and even

17:29

William Branham saying that he doesn't know who William Upshaw is I think I find like that's the big red flag in itself

17:34

Like claiming to not hear of somebody that everyone is heard of there's a reason for it

17:40

What what do you think that reason is? Why why do you think William Branham would say he has never heard of Upshaw?

17:47

Well in my opinion, which it's only opinion I can't really say why somebody says something that is likely untrue, but in my opinion

17:57

Based off of every other example that I had whenever William Branham Made a claim and it turned out to be false.

18:05

There was much more to the story, right? Mm -hmm. So That that really that one statement is what drove me to try to make the connection

18:15

Why why is Roy Davis introducing Upshaw to William Branham in the 50s?

18:21

Whenever they were connected, you know back in the early 20s and that got me to digging into Basically what created the

18:29

Klan movement that would have influenced William Branham and as it turns out in the early 1920s the

18:40

Klan was getting a very Getting a basically a black eye because of some of the more terroristic things that were going on and You played this quote

18:54

Right before the Podcast started about the Jews. Mm -hmm. The William Branham saying the gospel was not even for the

19:01

Jews, right? Well, this was this was you know influence of the Klan the Klan were also white supremacy group that You know, they looked at the

19:11

Jews as not Not at the same level of themselves a different type of human, right?

19:18

So I started digging into the creation of the Klan and and how

19:24

Upshaw would have been How Upshaw would have been influenced by Davis in the early years and I came across the story

19:35

Covered by several newspapers in the Los Angeles Times and you know from Los Angeles to New York about the

19:43

Klan the congressional Investigation into the Klan and Lo and behold,

19:51

I found out that William Upshaw was Basically the primary defense of the

19:56

Ku Klux Klan before Congress Wow, what was so what was his defense essentially against Congress?

20:05

Well, the Klan had been you know Turning turning towns upside down.

20:13

They were Infiltrating the Government the police force and So there's a congressional investigation to try to understand

20:25

What is this thing that's growing in the United States and his defense was that it was a very very

20:33

Patriotic thing that was growing he he referred to William Joseph Simmons as one of the nightliest most patriotic men that he ever knew

20:43

Wow and When it came right down to it, his defense was actually quite brilliant He said if you're going to investigate the

20:53

Ku Klux Klan You also have to investigate every secret fraternal order order that You know that's in the

21:01

United States and he's speaking to a whole group of men who are in these things, right? Right.

21:07

So Wow You know, it basically halted it in its tracks

21:13

Mm -hmm, and just you know to what what state and what state was

21:18

William Upshaw a congressman? In the state of Georgia, okay, that's why

21:23

I believe I recall and so, you know We talked a little bit about then kind of the nature of certain things going on in Jeffersonville, Indiana And the climate around there and it's kind of just birthplace of all this

21:34

Syndicate crime and prohibition and all that, you know attracting very notorious historical

21:40

Bank robbers and a gangster like Al Capone. What was the nature though in Georgia?

21:46

I mean, Georgia has a unique history in regards to some of the racial tensions, you know that had a huge influence

21:52

You know building up to the civil rights movement, but around the time when he would have been A congressman of Georgia what what sort of things were going on at that time in this state when he was a congressman?

22:05

During the during the time he was a congressman Actually, it's it's one of the events that was the catalyst for the creation of the

22:11

Ku Klux Klan There was a Jewish man who was a

22:17

He owned a manufacturing company. I think it was and a woman claimed that he raped her and You know, it was

22:29

Very questionable whether or not he did but so many people rose up against him that they they locked him up and eventually they they had a public lynching near Atlanta, Georgia and They I saw pictures of it in my research which are horrific but People were there taking photographs.

22:51

They were making postcards People standing by the man who's hanging from the tree so that they could get their picture made it was this type of Atmosphere Wow Upshaw was a congressman and He was one of the this this man who is was lynched was one of the catalysts for the

23:10

Ku Klux Klan because They saw his lynching as a patriotic act They they saw this person who was a

23:18

Jew who was in manufacturing who had you know? He was getting he was giving

23:23

Jews the jobs that they wanted to go to the whites So this was a very patriotic

23:30

Event for the white supremacy groups. Hmm, which is crazy. I mean, this is this is very

23:36

Difficult, you know, this is heavy content about what we're talking about I mean again, I can only imagine

23:42

I don't know if I share this with you John like about It was back into thin out 2008

23:48

I was in Ireland just on a trip with my friends to explore the island, you know Pre -kovat when you could everything wasn't locked down when that was actually reality for a lot of people but um, what was what fascinated me is that I have this unique experience we went up to Belfast and We when we went up there we found out it was on a day called

24:07

Protestant Day Which was basically a day where the product was it's very much a cultural thing as far as Protestants go

24:14

Where they would build up these giant pallets wooden pallets and douse them in gasoline and they put a

24:21

Irish flag on top And I remember being up there and I feel like there's this tension in the air when we're

24:28

I was up there with Belfast with my brother and my friend Matt and I just remember that they were even telling that the police officers up there with our yellow checkered vests

24:36

We're just saying this is if you're a tourist, this is probably a not a good night to be up here This is Protestant Day and we weren't quite sure what was going on needs to say we started seeing all these giant multiple pallets of Wood that were doused in gasoline with the

24:50

Irish flag on top and we knew that we are not we are not in Southern Ireland Ireland anymore and you could feel the tension and as we're driving

24:58

As we're driving back. We see these billows these firing billows all over the

25:03

Irish countryside Wow, and it was like and there's one moment where you drove by this gang of hooligans that had this giant

25:13

Pallet that was of wood that was already on fire with the Irish flag on top. It was almost as if the Irish flag was

25:19

Fighting back against the flames and I just remember like you could just tangibly Feel the tension or the hatred in the air that these people had

25:29

So it's almost as if I can only imagine in the immediate point of reference I made

25:34

I can only imagine like living in the south or living in Georgia at the time where a movement like this is

25:39

Prominent and you go out there and you see a bunch of men in white hoods with the burning cross and Doing everything that I do and that's just immediately.

25:48

I just associated with with that So this is something that's fascinating too because we are talking again.

25:53

This is this is part of American history This is also a product as Christians We have the ability to make a sense for why people would hate their neighbor without cause

26:04

But we mentioned in the last episode about how After the film was released around 15 man that man gathered around Stone Mountain just north of Atlanta to organize the

26:13

Ku Klux Klan Very little is known about the 15 men who gathered that day And they were led by someone named

26:22

William Joseph Simmons, and so he was related to that and it was related to Birth of a nation which you talked about the head of he was one of the most effective works of Propaganda and a no and this and it's an absolutely wicked and deplorable

26:39

Movie, you know, I've only seen bits and pieces of it and that's literally all I needed to see I was just part of American history.

26:45

So maybe just talk a little bit further about that and also Maybe explain to you know,

26:51

William Joseph Simmons and how he connects. How does he come into play? With all of this going on and how does it connect to Upshaw and all it

27:01

Davis and ultimately brand like how do those pieces? I'll work together without having it a 20 podcast Right.

27:08

Yeah, so I'll give you this the short version Yeah, and you mentioned the burning flag and the you know, the uncomfortable feeling that you had there

27:17

Well with the burning cross, it's the same thing, right? they're burning the cross is showing their patriotism and they specifically chose a cross because they

27:27

Believe themselves to be a Christian organization but every person who's on the other side of this that burning cross creates fear and they

27:38

They enjoy this fear. They enjoy the ability to give people fear, right? so this event that happened whenever Congress started investigating is

27:51

You know, even though Upshaw saved the group from being fully dissolved There was enough publicity of the bad things that were going on the burning crosses the killings they were just slaughtering innocent people with No judicial system.

28:10

They were bypassing all all juries and It's not the

28:15

American way right you can't have this kind of thing going on right so The publicity alone was enough to get

28:23

William Joseph Simmons ousted he was he basically had to step down as the leader of the

28:29

Klan and It became at least my interpretation of reading the newspapers articles in the history books it was like this scavenger hunt to see who could become the next

28:42

William Joseph Simmons, right and What happened is the Indiana Klan is the one that Became dominant across the nation.

28:52

It was the one that basically was the largest force and William Joseph Simmons was ousted because Roy Davis was his public spokesperson.

29:02

He was obviously ousted with him and Upshaw somehow managed to come somewhat unscathed

29:11

Most of the history books that I came across don't mention him as being part of the

29:16

Klan There are very little there are very few articles in the newspapers. Even I came across only just one or two that Apparently during the course of this investigation.

29:27

It was made known at least according to the newspaper That he was part of the

29:33

Ku Klux Klan But because it was dissolved and because he was close to Simmons he was also out

29:41

So what happened? According to what I'm seeing from the history.

29:47

Is that the Indiana Klan became dominant? Simmons and Davis and apparently

29:54

Upshaw Were not happy about this and they wanted to create another virgin a version of this

30:02

Um, you'll remember that William William Branham was supportive of Roy Davis in the latter years and Davis called his clan group the

30:13

Knights the original Knights of the Ku Klux Klan It's referring to that thing that he had with William Joseph Simmons Wow So so here's a question for you.

30:25

So will William Upshaw we know that he he knows Davis There's the Klan that they were all involved in Roy Davis is a sketchy character or so.

30:37

So is there are there times where to be very kind to be very kind? Yeah where where Upshaw was actually in danger of being convicted for crimes

30:47

Did he get into anything with Roy Davis to where he almost got in trouble for something? That's exactly where I was heading with this.

30:55

Oh nice. Okay Now that you understand the background of the story, right you have to understand that Upshaw was just as much a part of this as Davis if you don't understand that you won't understand at all

31:07

Why he would be posing as a wheelchair invalid in one of those meetings, right? So you have this group of men who had something that they lost and they wanted to regain

31:19

They they had this original Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. They wanted it back Shortly after Davis was he was extradited to I believe was

31:31

Arkansas on charges of Grand Theft Auto. He actually served some prison time and During the time he was in prison.

31:42

I came across one of the there's there's a note of the the roster of men who are in prison and There's a note beside Roy Davis that he's a sexual pervert

31:55

He You remember he had the he had the women that he would take across state lines.

32:01

Yes multiple wives, etc, right? He gets in prison somehow gets out of this and He go he had straight for Los Angeles, California and Lo and behold

32:14

William D Upshaw head straight for Los Angeles, California So I came across all this and the first thing that goes through my mind is there's a guy who's convicted of grand theft

32:27

He's been busted numerous times and somehow wiggled out of it for everything from swindling organization

32:36

Swindling members of his congregation to stealing a piano for his church To running around with women and having multiple wives how in the heck did he get out of prison?

32:48

Yeah, and when I see that here's congressman Upshaw who's connecting with him?

32:53

I start to realize that these men probably have a lot more political pool than your average person who's in Arkansas prison

33:02

Mmm makes perfect sense. Yeah, we're on things too. You met that I just want to point out to that We're talking about all these different people who are involved in the

33:10

Klan and such and the end So especially when you talk about being a sociological

33:17

Infrastructure where it's hard to really speak out Otherwise, you're kind of flagged or listed is that one of the things you know, you noted in your book

33:24

You talked about it says it said to oppose the Klan and to be outspoken was very dangerous during this time

33:31

Now anyone could be watching or listening. It could be your neighbor your co -worker could be a Klansman You'd better be looking over your shoulder because the politician in office the labor in a factory the police force

33:42

Anyone could be watching those who cross the lines in the sand were drawn by the Ku Klux Klan were terrorized at night by men

33:48

In white robes many were killed, especially those without white skin So just to emphasize you can give me a thoughts on this too

33:55

Like this is the when all this is going on like this is then this is the sociological infrastructure of what's going on So one if you are, you know part of if you're non -white you are in further danger

34:08

I mean like legitimately that this is just a cultural aspect that's evil and wicked but Then if you have problems with how they're conducting themselves

34:17

You don't really know who you can talk to which is almost it's almost like a cult within the culture as a whole.

34:24

Absolutely Yeah, yeah Well, especially if you're a person who's prone to getting in trouble which we see with Davis You also have you also have the political power to get people who can help you in any scenario any

34:45

Situation because you if you get before a jury and you're able to influence the jury

34:50

Well five of the ten people, you know, maybe part of the Ku Klux Klan. You just don't know

34:55

So it's it was a very it was a very difficult time for people who wanted to be upstanding citizens

35:04

Because they're starting to watch as the as the judicial process was just basically crumbling because of these organizations and There was a lot of fear especially if you didn't have white skin

35:19

Well, yeah, and even to me you could totally change the scenario I mean if you're if you are in a town that's taken over by a cult and You get arrested by the police officer.

35:28

Who's a member of the cult and you are Constitutionally you get a right to a trial by jury But they are all under the influence of this a particular cult where they maybe there's a charismatic leader who believes he's talking to God Well, all of a sudden that right while the right to trial by jury is a biblical principle and it's derived from biblical law it's still

35:49

It can only do so much if they have abundant when it's run by a bunch of people who are fallen sinners in this case, you know people who are

35:58

Completely enslaved for this particular ideology of legitimate white supremacy in his formation in the 1920s

36:06

So, yeah, I definitely appreciate you saying that go ahead I'll give you an example in in today's modern world

36:13

It's difficult to picture back then because you know, it's a different time different place 2014 there's a

36:22

William Branham message cult church that's in Zimbabwe and This leader of this church, his name is

36:29

Robert Gombra, you can find his information on my website this guy somehow convinced over 200 members of his church that he was the spiritual husband of the wives of the church and Started sleeping around with the wives.

36:47

He he basically was able to convince husbands that he could borrow their wife on any given night and And Believe it or not.

36:56

That's not what got him in trouble But the fact that he recorded their sessions together their sexual encounters the recordings is what actually got this man in trouble and what happened was after during the investigation into This man these women this church

37:15

They suddenly realized that this person and this cult had invaded the political forces of Zimbabwe They had put key people into the banking system so that if you were in need of money, and you were part of the cult you had favor over those who weren't part of the cult and Long story short.

37:39

There's there's enough here for another 10 podcast but they They were actually they were actually trying to overthrow the government and almost did it was a group of Journalists in the

37:53

UK that accidentally stumbled on to the fact that these guys were actually arms dealers for the

37:59

William Branham message cult and they were trying to Attempt a coup against President Mugabe so this

38:09

The fact that you can have cult people Embedded into the banking system the police force the government it in fact it

38:20

Influences different parts of your life, but it impacts every part of your life from getting a loan for a house to The president that you might or might not have yeah, and just one thing out.

38:32

It's funny. I almost misread a section of the chapter where you talk about Congressman Upshaw it said in September 1921

38:42

New York ran a series of articles and my brain was thought all of a sudden said during the I almost thought during the

38:47

New York series, I was thinking like New York Yankees, I'm like wasn't New York Yankees like attacking the

38:53

Ku Klux Klan for but But yeah, there's but in all seriousness has said according to the publication the

38:58

Ku Klux Klan heads to as silently infiltrated America Infiltrated America membership had grown to over 500 ,000 members the

39:06

Ku Klux Klan had suddenly become a political and terroristic Invisible Empire a force to be reckoned with and entire governing bodies were now being trolled controlled by Klan forces

39:15

And so it's very public, but at the same time is basically secretive And all of a sudden, you know, you had a this

39:22

Klan was now being exposed as you know Anti -catholic anti -jewish anti -black, you know terrorist an organization that was inciting violence in American cities

39:32

So and that's directly connected to you know, William Joseph Simmons. So it just it's just fascinating It's just see how this all unravels together

39:40

And yes, you are absolutely correct. I feel like we're 40 minutes in I'm like, yep This could definitely be a temp podcast.

39:45

So Yeah, so I'm trying to give you the highlighted version yeah

39:52

So so now that you have this background, right? You've got these men who are Somehow getting out of prison.

39:58

They're ending up in Los Angeles, California so all of this sets the scene for how these two came together and What what can build a opinion of what an opinion of what happened right right so These these men get together

40:17

They lost the original Klan They just even based on the name.

40:23

They wanted to recreate the original Knights of the Ku Klux Klan so Roy Davis started posing as a federal agent in In Various social groups in Los Angeles and the surrounding cities and William Upshaw who just happened to be a former

40:44

United States congressman was backing his story so This man who just escaped prison is posing as a government agent with his sidekick the

40:54

United States congressman who says yes this guy can be trusted with your money and They started getting people to donate for a children's orphanage that at they basically, we're creating as a font front for Funding and generating and building their next plan of attack on the

41:17

United States They the Ku Klux Klan called it the Americanization of the

41:23

United States by spreading their agenda Well, William Upshaw was in charge of the

41:29

Department of Americanization of the children's orphanage That just blows yeah

41:38

And it just made it make sense to you because what you'll see it's in a lot of cults is that what they'll do is they'll have fronts where it's almost sort of like a honeypot or it just or it's an organization that's

41:49

Affiliated with it's not it's sort of Obscure or not necessarily it comes across is not officially affiliate affiliated with Scientology, for example so there's a lot of times when people have come out in criticism of Scientology there are organizations that are

42:08

They're presented as human rights groups, right? And they come out in criticism for example of Leah Remini or Mike Rinder when they did

42:16

Scientology the aftermath of Lawrence, right? When he made the documentary and book which are both fantastic, by the way going clear

42:24

Scientology and the prison of unbelief I believe it's called so a lot of times you will see sort of these organizations

42:31

Either as a media outlet as it as you know, something of a neutral party, but they're really not

42:38

So yeah, that that's something that's always indicative of how cults will run.

42:43

That's that's a typical Playbook and as we can see this is back in 1920s and people are doing this today

42:48

So yeah, there is nothing new under the Sun sometimes when you look at how these cults are put together Yeah, we also see

42:54

Jim. Oh, yeah, go for it John go for it. I Think I want to re -emphasize something that you're saying and doing here whenever you're talking you're referring to the cult

43:06

Whenever we're talking about what's happening here I don't want people to mistakenly think that that's only referring to William Branham The Ku Klux Klan itself is a cult and there's many subsects within this cult but it is a political cult in the same way that I Personally feel like William Branham's Message cult was a political cult, but some people view it as a religious cult

43:30

So you have to distinguish between the two the cult the the word cult can infer and apply to both

43:38

Different parties, right? Well that makes sense to if we even think about Jim Jones It's definitely a religious cult, but it also had political

43:47

Aims and views and ushering in a world of economic divine socialism, right? So or divine economic socialism

43:52

I mean it depends on the worldview behind the cult so it just goes to show in in terms of Upshaw in Roy Davis, they've already conspired together fronting through an orphanage to embezzle money to fuel something different and it blows my mind that there can be people that try to have a front of Some moral high ground like an orphanage right someplace that takes care of children that don't have parents

44:21

But yet you in bezel money through it and you claim to be a minister of the gospel.

44:27

Yeah, like wow It just blows my mind. You can't cook. That's you. Yeah, exactly.

44:33

Yeah, that's why that's basically why I In my opinion the message is a political cult right on the surface.

44:40

Obviously, they're religious cult They're preaching they're claiming that they preach the gospel. Although they're unaware that the gospel was first to the

44:48

Jews Yes You know it on the surface.

44:53

Yes, it looks religious, but you have to look what is the motivation behind it? What is the intent?

44:59

What what is the train that this thing is writing? Yeah, and like you said there

45:04

There are a number of cults and the Ku Klux Klan being one of them that have several false fronts not just faults in the in the way that it's a religious it's a religious premise for a political cult, but For instance

45:22

Roy Davis also in Louisiana had a front the Louisiana Rifle Association Which was apparently the second biggest to the

45:31

National Rifle Association Was the was basically the front that was funding his original

45:37

Knights of the Ku Klux Klan in Louie's in the state of Louisiana So they went after children's orphanages preschools

45:47

Many rifle groups guns and rifle groups. They're they're just a number of different Facades for these cults to grow

45:56

Yeah, I mean it reminds me of essentially of Jim Jones one of his quotes where he said and I thought to myself

46:02

How could I demonstrate my Marxism? The thought was infiltrate the church the same thing in the sense with Roy Davis William Upshaw and even

46:11

William Branham in a sense It's how can I demonstrate the white seed power of this genetic line?

46:17

My thought was infiltrate the church, you know, it's just a different aspect of it. Mm -hmm

46:22

It whenever you're speaking to especially in this era when you're speaking to people in a religious setting

46:30

Most of them. Yeah, you also have to remember this is a time before Movies and television were the thing today where it's 90 % of your

46:40

Entertainment, right? These people would actually travel for two hours to go hear some preacher preaching and In these groups, they shut off all critical thought

46:51

Because they see the speaker in front of them is saying the word Jesus They they think that they can just trust him, but that he's not have that.

46:59

He doesn't have some hidden agenda But the religious platform was used by several malicious people

47:06

Just to try to influence people who had shut off their critical thinking. Mm -hmm

47:11

Yeah, and that and that definitely is the case to you know There's a lot of church even there's a lot of churches organizations where as soon as that person gets up It's almost you're assuming what they're saying is revelatory.

47:23

And even if they're not being revelatory, they have that celebrity status Yeah You know, there's a bill like oh my gosh

47:29

I just get to seat I just get to sit at his feet, you know And just you just hear every single word that comes out rather than looking at it thinking critically like our pastor

47:39

Or past doors, you know when they get up is that they always make the point that the Bible is the final authority

47:44

You need to test every single thing that I say by Scripture Don't take my word for it. And so a lot of times when you have a culture that's like that where it's just the focus is in on the celebritized pastor or Someone who is a prophet who's speaking for God and if you're fully bought into that I definitely agree for sure a lot of that critical thinking goes down.

48:06

So one of the things too, so Maybe as we kind of like wrap up here We kind of bring all these different connections together and given we're given the brief non 10 pod cast part overview

48:17

So one of the things that's continuing as these connections are met are being made with congressman

48:23

Upshaw. So you can you have this Radical white supremacy that's happening, but also across the board you have the prohibition era that's taking place

48:32

And which is affecting the closure of saloons and a bunch of different things so you have for example, and I just thought of this too,

48:38

I Can't endorse the show but as far as what was premise in the

48:44

HBO series boardwalk Empire You know, you had Steve Buscemi whose character was this Republican congressman who put forth legislation to advance the prohibition

48:53

You just come Steve Buscemi No, well, it's not the first time it's pronounced something

49:07

I appreciate you now knowing me but we're just gonna roll the punches I'm sorry so he played a Republican congressman and was interesting is that he what he did is that when he passed legislation to end probe to and The distribution of alcohol but then behind the scenes he was involved in the

49:26

Distribution of illegal liquor leveraging the black market. So I guess my right

49:31

I just couldn't help but think of the fact real quick and you can jump in here and give your thoughts Andrew Sorry, sorry, I see your brains go.

49:37

This is how it is We would bounce ideas off of each other that I'm like, ooh corrupt congressman already has these crazy views as weird religious figure

49:46

Who's faking an injury? There has to be something going on too with the prohibition

49:52

Erica, it's all interconnected. So yeah, what was your thoughts Andrew? Yeah, I'll let John take it and take it from here

49:57

But in terms of I mean Upshaw at the same time He went somewhere else even during the prohibition to get alcohol pushed in another way like a medical

50:07

Alcoholic as alcohol is a medical gimmick right John like what did he do to right? That's exactly what

50:13

I'm sitting here. I'm smiling. I'm I said raising my hand Yeah So so these these guys right so they're he's known as the he's known as the

50:26

Dryest of the dry as they call them. He's the man who won't touch alcohol in any way and his second wife was

50:34

Also a prohibition leader from Los Angeles who was in on this Thing whenever he's posing as the

50:40

FBI agent when Davis was posing, right? So My mind immediately goes were are these guys being honest?

50:48

Was this guy really did he really not like alcohol or was it also part of the stage persona?

50:55

And I came across as I'm as I'm researching William Upshaw Like I said, there's

51:00

I want to say a hundred thousand newspaper articles that I had to sift through just to find the good stuff

51:06

And I kept coming across this dang article on Sargon and I Kept, you know,

51:14

I flipped through the page and here's Sargon. Here's Sargon. What is this stuff? And I actually thought it was mislabeled.

51:20

It can't be related to William Upshaw and Finally, I gave up and I just look. Okay. What is this thing?

51:27

Oh my gosh This is the former congressman William Upshaw who's promoting this product, which is made with alcohol called a revitalizer

51:38

That Apparently you drink the stuff and it makes you happy. I Can't I can't say anything more other than it just doesn't make any sense, right?

51:50

So I started digging in what is Sargon? Is it truly alcoholic and apparently the

51:55

Bureau of Investigation? Started looking into this because it was a fake

52:01

Basically it was a magic elixir It was a fake tonic put out by the GF Willis company from Atlanta, Georgia where Upshaw was from We're pulling up images right now, by the way

52:14

It was basically The FDA came in and re misbranded deemed it misbranded because they had so many fraudulent claims and This was the basically this was the real -life equivalent of that medicine man that you see in Bonanza Who's coming from town to town with a bottle of whiskey?

52:35

Yes, this is snake wool and it'll heal you Yeah, it definitely like I said just looking at the image.

52:41

It definitely looks like something related to Yeah, it's definitely snake oil salesman with a label on the branding.

52:49

I mean you couldn't I Fits the picture. It's not alcohol. It's alcohol. Yep You can't

52:57

Well, yeah, so So seeing all that and then so how did how did they all fit together?

53:04

I mean as we wrap up here with the prohibition era with all these people interconnected, you know and it's gonna be a while before they meet

53:11

Branham, but they're still in contact with other people that Bram is connected to like how does it all relate?

53:19

Maybe as we wrap up or maybe we'll jump up into the next episode another another key event

53:25

Jumping back to Branham was the Chicago State Fair and we're bringing it up too because there's a lot.

53:30

There's a bunch of different Historical events that we're talking about in the previous episode and we talked about the prohibition era the

53:37

Great Depression and how that affected the state of Indiana, but There is a point of William Branham where you still kind of figuring out the origins of his ministry and kind of figuring out

53:47

The persona William Branham that's still evolving in play Just maybe couldn't lead people into The Chicago State Fair and Where did how did that affect

53:58

William Branham? And as we wrap up here Like just kind of keep people leave a sneak preview of like what we may talk about in the next episode or just where?

54:06

What sort of influence of the Chicago Fair have with? Where the entirety of his movement went from there?

54:14

William Branham is known as a prophet by several different groups

54:20

Not just in the cult you find these these shows like God's generals these books called

54:26

God's generals in the documentaries and they're claiming that this man is a prophet and he's a

54:31

Christian prophet and It's interesting because when I left the cult

54:36

I read the Bible like I want to say 15 times cover to cover Over and do it again do it again trying to wash all this stuff out of my head

54:44

And as I'm doing this I start to realize that wait a minute these guys who are prophets in the

54:50

Bible are prophesying of things that are related to the spiritual that are they're related to Cleaning up your life salvation, etc and I look back at my life in the cult and William Branham was prophesying on things like cars that would be shaped like an egg and This thought suddenly struck me what on earth does a car that's shaped like an egg even have to do with me why why would

55:19

God want to speak through this man to tell me that a car is going to be shaped like an egg and To sum it up in just one sentence the

55:28

Chicago's World's Fair Was basically the source of several of his alleged prophecies

55:38

Wow, well that I'm sure that's going to I I'm very excited to see how that unravels obviously because we know kind of we know where Branham's story ends we know that Eventually his connection relationship to Jim Jones and how that started or the people's temple and the influence that it had

55:59

Was fascinating because again if you look at the entirety of Jim Jones's whole movement was would be it was based on the exact and 10th is antithesis of Branham's movement and they and Roy Davis everything that they propagate in their early movement they're so polar opposites in regards to this extreme white supremacy and the type of Racial equality that was part and parcel was the core aspect of Jim Jones's message through the divine economic socialism

56:29

So we're excited to see that how that unravels. So, all right Well, John, we appreciate you coming on here.

56:34

And as always thank you all for listening in To this episode of cultish and Yeah, we'll talk to you all