July 15, 2020 Show with Keith Foskey on “Godly Violence in a Satanically Violent Age: Debunking the Myth of ‘Jesus the Pacifist’ & a Defense of Lethally Protecting One’s Self & Loved Ones From Dangerous People”

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 15th day of July, 2020.

I'm thrilled to have back on the program a dear friend of mine who is a returning guest.

It's been a while, and it's been far too long as far as I'm concerned. I'm glad that he's on today.

His name is Pastor Keith Foskey, and he pastors Sovereign Grace Family Church in Jacksonville, Florida.

And he's the founder of Sovereign Grace Family Church Karate Club. And today, we are going to be discussing godly violence in a satanically violent age, debunking the myth of Jesus the pacifist, and a defense of lethally protecting oneself and loved ones from dangerous people.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Keith Foskey. Hey, brother, how are you?

I'm doing better than I was two weeks ago when I went into the hospital.

And so I'm just glad that the Lord is quickly getting me back to feeling normal again.

I don't know if I ever felt normal, but feeling a lot healthier.

And it was quite a scare. But as I was thanking my listeners yesterday,

I was overwhelmed with the prayers and well wishes and encouragement and warm, compassionate, loving greetings from Christians all over the world, many of whom

I had never heard from before, including those that I know very well. And that was all due to our mutual friend

Mike Gaydosh of Solid Ground Christian Books heavily publicizing my stay in the hospital and requesting prayer as I had been suffering with congestive heart failure.

And now it turns out diabetes as well. And so thankfully, they did not have to do any kind of surgery.

And I'm basically on a medicine and low -sodium, low -carb diet regimen and also taking daily insulin.

And it sure has taken the joy out of eating, I tell you that much.

Well, I understand that. And I know that our church, having heard about your situation, have all been praying for you.

We've all been thinking about you. And I'm glad that we were able to get together today over the phone.

This is a blessing to me, and I appreciate you having me. Amen. Well, I'd like to give our listeners our email address right away if they have questions of their own.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us at least your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. And only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you disagree with your pastor or your church or your denomination over something that we are addressing today, and you'd rather not draw attention to your identity.

Perhaps you're even a pastor yourself, and you disagree with your fellow elders or your denomination over what we are discussing today.

Or whatever the reason that would compel you to remain anonymous. We will grant you that request, but please only do so if you are indeed asking a personal and private question.

And before we go into our subject matter, why don't you tell our listeners about Sovereign Grace Family Church in Jacksonville, Florida.

Well, Sovereign Grace Family Church, as you said, is in Jacksonville. The church has actually been here for over 50 years, but we weren't always a

Reformed church. By God's grace, back in 2008, we began the process of becoming

Reformed, as God, by His grace, led us through a period of revival. Before that, we were actually part of the

Old Disciples of Christ denomination, which, if your listeners are familiar with that, that is the

Campbellite movement. That is the far left wing of the

Campbellite movement. At least in the 20th and 21st centuries, it has been the far left wing.

Of course, it wasn't always that way, but that was actually, I believe, the original name that Alexander Campbell chose for his movement.

But it later split off into three major factions. The Disciples of Christ, the

Christian Church, which is much more conservative and instrumental, and the

Church of Christ, which is predominantly a cappella and also very conservative. Yes, sir.

And we were, our church was socially conservative, but theologically sort of mixed, a mixed bag.

But God, I grew up in this church, and God saved me out of this church. In a sense, when

I was 19 years old, I got saved, and he led me to seminary. I went to seminary at a

Baptist school. And through that, he led me to Reformed theology and brought me back here to be the pastor.

And by his grace, the people have been very receptive to the truth of the Word of God, the preaching of the

Word, expository preaching. And that's what we sort of focus on as our ministry here.

We are a church that focuses on expository preaching and teaching of the Word of God. A little bit of fun trivia.

A very notorious person who was a pastor in the Disciples of Christ was

Jim Jones of the infamous Jonestown in Ghana.

Was it Guyana or Ghana? I can't remember right now. It was one of those.

I think it was Guyana. And, of course, led many people to their deaths through a mass suicide and also murder.

And people sometimes wrongly view

Jim Jones as a fundamentalist gone astray and gone insane.

But he was always a very far left -leaning liberal and the darling of many liberal politicians in California before he led them into the jungles of Guyana.

So he was never a professing evangelical Christian or a fundamentalist, although he did have charismatic or Pentecostal -like faith healing services.

But he was always a liberal. Homosexual, etc., etc. But anyway, that's not why we're on the air today.

We are talking about godly violence in a satanically violent age. And I think it's a very appropriate subject as we all watch in horror, in astonishment to the news daily and see cities being overrun by violent, arrogant, spoiled -brat protesters and some who are not even really protesters but are taking advantage of a politically charged situation and just want to use the opportunity to loot stores and commit acts of violence.

But it is just utterly amazing how law -abiding citizens during this whole nightmare have been vilified, had their weapons seized when made public efforts to defend their own lives and property.

And it is, I think, a very excellent theme to bring up during this climate because of the fact that there are many

Christians who, even from a conservative and biblical background, believing in biblical inerrancy and so on, who have bought into a view of Jesus and Christianity that is false, believing that Jesus was a pacifist and calls us to be pacifists to the degree that we should not ever defend ourselves nor even physically, with violence, defend our own spouses and children or the harmless and helpless who may not even be in our bloodline but nonetheless are our neighbors and so on.

There are people out there that think that Jesus would never call for violence under any circumstance and I'm hoping that we are successful in debunking that myth.

I'm assuming you are on the same page with me so far. Yes, sir, absolutely.

And that's what I'm here to talk about. I feel not uniquely qualified but specifically qualified to talk about this particular issue because I've spent the last 25 years of my life learning how to teach other people how to defend themselves and how to protect themselves from dangerous situations.

So this is something that I have dedicated more than half my life to learning about because I do believe that while we are called to love our neighbor, one of the ways that we can love our neighbor is by standing in defense of our neighbor when evil people come to try to harm them.

And that is one of the ways that I think people often miss a display of love.

And that's why I coined a term, well, I say I coined it, I don't know, maybe somebody else coined it before me, but the term is benevolent violence.

And the word benevolent violence is the idea of using violence to defend or protect other people who are in harm's way or even to, if the need arises, to protect oneself.

And so that's really what I want to talk about today is the subject of how do we come to the point where we can really understand that there is a benevolent form of force.

And also, why don't we use this as an opportunity to introduce to our listeners the

Sovereign Grace Family Church Karate Club. Give us a bit about its history and what you are currently doing in this club.

Okay. Well, again, going back to myself, I have black belts in multiple forms of martial arts.

I started when I was 14 years old. And I have a 5th degree black belt in Shotokan Karate, which is from Japan.

And I have a 2nd degree black belt in something called Modern Arnis. Modern Arnis is a system of stick fighting and it's from the

Philippines. And I learned that through somebody that's actually, he doesn't live around here, he lives up in New York, but my teacher is up in Seneca, New York.

And that has been a wonderful blessing to me to have an opportunity to have trained with him because his teacher was actually the one who created the system.

And that system is actually the national sport in the Philippines. It's called Modern Arnis. And so that's a combat sport that I'm trained in.

And so back in about 2005, I went to the elders of the church where I wasn't the pastor then,

I was the associate pastor. And I said, hey, I have this skill that I can teach and I think it would be good for the community.

And it teaches, of course, not only physicality and exercise and learning to control yourself and self -discipline, but it also provides the added benefit of learning to protect yourself in the event of someone trying to hurt you.

And the vast majority of what we teach in the Karate Club is defensive tactics.

And that means that we're not teaching people how to fight, but we're teaching people how to defend themselves.

And most people do not understand the difference between those two things.

Most people think that fighting and self -defense are basically the same thing, and they are not.

Fighting involves two people who are both willfully engaging in the action of combat.

So, for instance, Chris, if you and I didn't know each other and we were in a restaurant and I walked by and spilled your drink on you and you stood up and pushed me and I pushed you back, well now we're in a fight because we're both willfully engaging in a situation where either one of us could walk away.

But instead, we're both willfully engaging in this, and at a certain point it's going to keep escalating until one of us hurts the other one or somebody intervenes.

And that's fighting. But conversely, if I were walking out to my car and it was late at night and it was dark and someone approached me and had a weapon of some sort, or maybe they didn't have a weapon, maybe they just had their empty hands, that they were threatening me and they wanted to hurt me, now you don't have two people who are willingly engaging.

You have one person who is attacking and the other person who is seeking to defend himself.

And it's a much different situation morally, it's a much different situation in regard to the law, and it's a much different situation,

I believe, biblically. So our Karate Club focuses on teaching people how to defend themselves.

We've been doing it now for, well, I guess, 15 years at the church, and we've produced several

Black Belt students who have gone through, and now they help me teach the program. And we have kids from five years old up to senior adults who take our classes.

And we teach one night a week, and it's a free course. We ask people to make donations, and the money all goes back to the church.

But I don't take any money for it, and I don't do any of our Black Belts. We do it because we love people and because we believe it's a valuable gift to give to the community.

Praise God. And if you want more information about this Karate Club and also about Sovereign Grace Family Church of Jacksonville, Florida in general, you can go to sgfc, which stands for Sovereign Grace Family Church, sgfcjax,

J -A -X, which is an abbreviation for Jacksonville, dot org.

sgfcjax .org. And if you look at the top of the page, you will see an option to click that says

Karate Club. And you can click on that, and you'll get all the information that you need. And hopefully we'll remember to give you that information again later on in the program.

Well, there are people, not only because of movies and TV depictions of the life of Jesus, have given people a false preconceived notion that Jesus was against all violence, even if it meant one protecting himself from an evil, dangerous person, or protecting one's own spouse or children from an attacker.

And, in fact, a very well -known figure in our theological circles,

John Piper, even got the ire raised amongst many of his fellow

Reformed Christians and Calvinists when they vehemently disagreed with him over something that he had said a number of years ago about not acting with violence to stop attackers who were attacking his wife and children, especially lethally, because in doing so, if he killed them, he would certainly be sending them to hell, was his reasoning.

And, of course, if you're going to use that kind of argument, which is really a very

Arminian or non -Reformed way of thinking, of providence and so on, as if we could control the eternal destiny of anyone, if you want to look at it even on that plane of thought, by letting the people go unharmed after they killed your wife and children, they may very well kill others and send those people to hell, the ones that they are killing, if they are not believers.

So it's really, I think, a very poor argumentation. And, of course, there are a number of reasons, the

Bible taken out of context, that people have become believers in a pacifist view of Jesus and Christianity.

First of all, we have Jesus Christ himself being prophesied in Isaiah 53, verse 7.

He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth like a lamb that is led to slaughter, and like a sheep that is silent before his shearers, he did not open his mouth.

You also have a verse in Matthew 12, verse 20, speaking of Christ, a battered reed he will not break off and a smoldering wick he will not put out until he leads justice to victory.

And, of course, one of the most famous verses that you will hear, unbelievers even, quote, who have no understanding of the scriptures may have never even read a page of the

Bible in their lives, but they have heard the verse regarding turning the other cheek, that very famously quoted verse in Matthew 5, 38 -40.

You have heard that it was said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I tell you, do not resist an evil person.

If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also, and if anyone wants to sue you, take your shirt and over your coat as well.

So those are some of the reasons that folks have developed an understanding of Jesus.

They may not even be full -fledged pacifists in a Mennonite denomination or something similar.

They may not be Quakers or, I believe, some of the

Seventh -day Adventists have this understanding, but they may be just your average

Christian who, perhaps even if they are inconsistent in their life or the way that they view

Christ and Christianity, they somehow think that even though they may have a gut feeling that it is right to defend your wife and children or even helpless strangers, they still somehow think that Jesus wouldn't do that physically.

So if you could comment. Perhaps we should even start with the Matthew 5, 38 -40 verse, since that is probably the most well -known and most often repeated series of verses to defend a pacifist view of Jesus.

Sure. And I want to say from the outset, I understand how people get there, and I understand the history of the

Mennonite movement and particularly among the Amish and others who have made their stand on absolute pacifism.

But one of the things that I have tried to point out with people is that pacifists exist only because there are people who are willing to not be pacifists and stand on their behalf.

Most of the Amish and Mennonite people live in places where they are protected by people who aren't pacifists.

And, for instance, in the United States, the Amish and the Mennonites, they live in the United States where they're protected by the

United States military. If the United States military were to stand down and another nation were to roll in at our doorstep, if there was no one to defend, then they would no longer exist.

And so I think that's something to consider when people groups that basically are reliant upon others to stand on a wall and defend them because they won't defend themselves.

And again, I'm not knocking them. I see how they're getting there, but I always like to point that out, that pacifists live with the benefit of someone else protecting them.

So that's just to throw that out there. Now, the Matthew 5 passage, you've heard it said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

I'm sure you're familiar with this, Chris, but not a lot of people are. Jesus is addressing an issue of the law, and the law does say an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but that particular law was meant to be used by the judges to judge with equity.

And the equity is that you judge. If a person has taken your eye, then justice would demand that your eye be given.

If a person takes your tooth, then justice would demand that a tooth be given. If a person takes another person's eye, that person may want to kill them, but the response would not be that.

The response must be equitable, it must be even, and the determiner of that is the judge.

What had happened, though, in the time of Christ, is people had used that as a reasoning for personal vengeance.

And so Matthew 5 .38 is particularly referring to personal vengeance, people who are angry and want to have vengeance.

If somebody strikes me, I want to hit them back, because that's my natural desire.

I have a fleshly desire to hit them. If he hits me on the cheek, I want to hit him back. That's my natural impulse.

And Jesus is saying that type of vengeance should not be what drives us. That type of vengeance should not be what is the motivating heart of the believer.

The believer ought to be willing to be struck and not feel the desperate need to strike in return, the desperate need to have his fair one, fair comeuppance, if you will, to give back.

As the Bible says, we don't overcome evil with evil, but we overcome evil with good.

And so right away we have to understand the context of what Jesus is saying. We cannot use an eye for an eye or a tooth for a tooth as an excuse for vengeance.

The Bible does not allow for vengeance. But I don't think that self -defense is vengeance, and I can make a distinction now between the two, or we can move on, and I can talk about that later.

Why don't you, since you have it on your mind, continue. Okay. I think the best example of this is in Exodus 22, 2 and 3.

And I don't mean to jump away from Matthew 5, but I think it does speak to this issue. In Exodus 22, verse 2, it says,

If a thief is found breaking in and struck so that he dies, there shall be no blood guilt for him.

But if the sun has risen on him, there shall be blood guilt for him. He shall surely pay if he has nothing, that he shall be sold for his theft.

So what is Exodus 22, 2 and 3 saying? If in the middle of the night I were to awake to a man in my home who is there to steal from me, and his presence is a threat to me, and I strike him and he dies,

I'm not guilty of bloodshed because I am acting in an act of defense.

I'm not acting in anger or vengeance. I'm acting to protect my family, and I'm acting to protect myself.

However, if the sun rises on that person, what that means is, he breaks in, he steals, and he leaves, and the sun rises, and I wake up the next morning and I realize

I've been, someone has stolen from me, and I'm angry, and now I'm going to go find that guy, and I'm going to go kill that guy because I'm angry with him, then

I would have blood guilt because that is an act of vengeance. That's not an act of self -defense.

I was not protecting myself. I was seeking my own retributive justice, and retributive justice does not belong to me.

First, it belongs to the judges who are appointed to enact justice, and they act justly, and it ultimately belongs to God who tells us that vengeance is mine, and I will repay, says the

Lord. So I think that Jesus is dealing with vengeance in Matthew chapter 5, not personal protection.

That, again, is the way I understand it, and I think that that would bear out in other passages as well.

And, of course, there's another passage in Luke that has been used to promote a pacifist

Jesus, and that is where we read in Luke 22 .50,

during the arrest of Jesus, and one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear, and you have

Jesus picking up the ear and replacing the ear on the person's head, on the slave's head, and this is seen to be viewed as a rebuke of somebody who was even doing something that we all would have thought would have been a noble gesture, the highest of noble gestures to defend the

King of kings and the Lord of lords when your own life was at stake in doing so.

And Jesus even said, No more of this when he touched the man's ear and healed him.

So how do you respond to that kind of a thing? Well, that's an interesting passage, because he also uses the phrase,

He who lives by the sword dies by the sword, and so there have been a lot of people who say, Well, you know, you shouldn't have any weapons, because if you have those weapons, you're setting yourself up to be hurt by them.

If you live by the sword, you're going to die by the sword, and they use that as the example, but what's interesting about that is not too long before that,

Jesus told his disciples that they're going to need a sword, and he said,

If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. So there is an instance where a sword might be necessary, but not in that instance, because Simon was trying to circumvent the very thing that the

Lord came to do. The Lord came to be given a sacrifice. He told his disciples that.

He told them he was going to be delivered into the hands of evil men, and he told Simon, You're going to deny me.

Simon, of course, said, No, Jesus, I'll never do that. And in the midst of all this, Jesus is telling

Simon, This is not what you're supposed to be doing. You can't circumvent this plan.

I've gone to the Father. I've prayed to the Father. I've said, Let this cup be removed from me. He said,

No, this is the way it's going to be. And I think the context plays an important role there.

Now, in the verse that you were just referring to, in Luke, where we have

Jesus saying, The one with a purse should take it, and likewise a bag.

And the one without a sword should sell his cloak and buy one. For I tell you that this

Scripture must be fulfilled in me. And he was numbered with the transgressors.

For what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment. And then, so they said,

Look, Lord, here are two swords. Jesus says, That is enough. People have said that is more of a cryptic, prophetic kind of statement that really has no literal application about buying a sword.

But I don't know how you could, no matter what you think it symbolizes, and it obviously has a part of an evidence of prophecy being fulfilled from what we see in the text itself.

But at the same time, to say that there's no logical, tangible, physical application for what

Jesus commanded them to do, I think is stretching it far over what we can read here.

Yeah, and I think that the concept of having and owning a sword for personal protection was fairly common and not something that would have been out of place for him to tell them that they were going to need, especially as the atmosphere was about to change in which they were living.

Because when he went to the cross and died, everything was about to change. They were going to be in hiding.

There was going to be a lot of danger. I don't think that, I mean, obviously there are people who are going to interpret it as figurative, but I don't see the need.

I just see it as a straight up, get a sword. Now what you're going to use that sword for, he doesn't say, so that is up to interpretation.

But the fact that he's telling you to get a sword, there seems to me to be relatively straightforward. Amen. And there are some other texts in the scripture,

I think, that would lead one to understand that Jesus is not a pacifist.

First of all, he healed the servant of a centurion and never told the centurion to repent and leave that calling in life, or that role, that job that he had, which is a commander of a sentry in the ancient

Roman army. There was no call to repentance to that person for being a centurion.

And you also have John the Baptist telling soldiers that they should be content with their wages and therefore, since he is not telling them to stop being soldiers, soldiers obviously are people who use violence when necessary, there is no clear prohibition to all forms of violence at all times.

Absolutely. And the passages that you mention are ones that I hear all the time.

Because those who are committed to pacifism are generally, not always, but generally, they would say that Christians should not serve in the military and some would say at all and some would say in combative roles.

And then some would say, well, they can't be police officers because police officers have to be able to use a certain level of force.

And that's another thing too. Language is important. If people don't like the word violence, use the word force.

I'm saying that sometimes force is necessary and force can be benevolent. If you don't want to use the word violence, use the word force.

To me it's the same thing because when we talk about the idea of violence,

CPR is violent. You're pounding on someone's chest, but you're doing it because you're trying to save their life.

Oftentimes people get broken ribs from CPR. Spanking a child is a violent act because it's applying force.

But yet it's benevolent because the Bible says if we spare the rod, we hate our child. And so there are actions which are clearly benevolent but yet involve the use of force.

And so a person who is saying they're a pacifist and if you're a pacifist you can't serve in the military,

I would say, well, Jesus certainly commended the soldier. John the Baptist commended the soldier, never told him to stop soldiering.

And if you can soldier and be a Christian, then you should be able to use force and be a

Christian because soldiers have to use force. And we have to go to our first break right now, and if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, don't go away, we're going to be right back after these messages with more of Pastor Keith Foskey and godly violence.

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Lord Jesus Christ. And, of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe ten minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org That's gracechurchatfranklin .org

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.

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Call 1 -800 -669 -4870. Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full program is

Pastor Keith Foskey of Sovereign Grace Family Church in Jacksonville, Florida, and founder of Sovereign Grace Family Church Karate Club.

We are discussing godly violence in a satanically violent age debunking the myth of Jesus the pacifist and a defense of lethally protecting oneself and loved ones from dangerous people.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com And please give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. And Pastor Keith, another thing I think we have to remember is that the actual words that came from the lips of Jesus are not the only inerrant words in the whole counsel of God.

And what John the Baptist said to soldiers being content with their wages is just as much the word of God as the words that came from Jesus' mouth.

And sometimes people get confused because Jesus had a unique role and mission in life.

He was to and did lay down his life for his sheep.

He was a sacrifice for the sins of his people. And he did undergo torture and execution without opening his mouth, without any physical retaliation, without any attempts at fleeing, at breaking free from the bonds that held him.

He was totally pacifistic in those moments of his life that led to his substitutionary death.

So that is not our role in life. That was Jesus Christ's role in life.

Not to say that we should not be imitators of that when appropriate.

We ought to lay down our lives if necessary for others, for the innocent, for the helpless, etc.

But in the way that Jesus specifically and uniquely did, we need not follow those steps of total pacifism.

Am I right? Yeah. I've had people ask me, well, would Jesus do karate?

And my answer is no. And they say, well, doesn't that mean it's wrong? I say no,

Jesus wasn't a soldier either. Does that mean it was wrong to be a soldier? If Jesus was passing by a group of soldiers who were training how to use their spears and shields, would he have raised his voice and said, stop that, you're not being like me?

I don't think so. I don't think that's the way we are to interpret the life of Christ at all.

We are to be imitators of Christ. We're to be imitators of him in his love and compassion.

And as I have already stated in the first segment, I think one of the ways that we're loving toward other people is when we seek to protect them.

And if you want to protect somebody, or you want to be able to protect somebody, you have to know how to do that.

It's not something that just is, it's something that everybody has the natural ability to do.

Being able to protect other people is a skill. Being able to protect yourself is a skill.

Most people do not have it naturally. In fact, most people, you've probably heard of the fight or flight thing that's in our brain.

Most people, they don't think about the third. It's not just fight or flight.

It's fight, flight, or freeze. Some people fight when they're attacked. Some people run when they're attacked.

But most people just freeze and do nothing because they have not ever considered themselves to be a potential victim.

And therefore, when they become a victim, they have nothing upon which to draw. They have no experience.

They've never even considered that it could happen to them. And therefore, when it does happen, they just freeze.

And that's one of the things that I try to point out to people when I have seminars and when

I teach classes is that you are a potential victim because there are wolves out there who are looking for sheep.

There are people who are looking to prey upon you. And even if people don't want to believe that, but statistics after statistics show that we are very, very, it is very possible that we will be the victim of some kind of a threat of violence at some point in our life.

The statistics bear it out that it is very possible that it could happen. And the people who are most likely to be victims are the people who don't think they will, and therefore they are not prepared at all for it.

We have an... Excuse me, were you saying something, Keith? I'm sorry. I was just going to ask you, what's the difference between predator and prey?

Well, they're the opposite ends of a very violent act. Well, the biggest difference between predator and prey is prey doesn't know it's prey.

Ah, good, good. The predator wakes up in the morning knowing he's a predator.

He knows he's going to go look for prey upon which to attack. The prey wakes up in the morning and he goes about his business.

He doesn't ever think for a moment that he could be a victim. And that's what gives the predator the advantage.

And one of the things that I help people to try to learn is how to understand the mind of a predator, understanding the mind of a person who is a wolf.

And if I don't teach people anything else, I want them to learn situational awareness, how to recognize potential threats and avoid them.

I don't think I'm wrong at all for wanting to teach people that, and I don't think that's un -Christlike at all. So saying that Jesus wouldn't take karate, yeah, he wouldn't.

I don't think he would have taken karate, but that doesn't mean it's wrong to do. We have to, believe it or not, go to a midway break right now.

But before we do, I'm going to read a listener question from John in Bangor, Maine. John in Bangor, Maine says,

Do you believe in those participating in the martial arts being involved in full -contact martial arts where their opponents are actually being physically hurt?

And we'll have you answer that when we return from our midway break. And remember, folks, this is our longer -than -normal break because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of our show because they air this program twice daily in a prerecorded format and are compelled by the

FCC to localize this show to Lake City, Florida with their own public service announcements and other things that they air.

So while they air their own announcements and so on, we are airing our globally heard commercials.

Please use this time wisely by writing down as much of the information as you can provided by our advertisers so that you can more successfully and more frequently patronize them, which will mean subsequently that we remain on the air for a longer future, most likely, because our advertisers are pleased with the results they are getting and they're sticking around.

We rely upon our advertisers to exist. We require the money they provide through their sponsorship.

So please try to keep them happy as much as possible and patronize them. Also, write down a question for Pastor Keith Foskey on godly violence in a satanically violent age.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

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Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,

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We are going to be returning to our discussion with Pastor Keith Foskey momentarily.

He is the pastor of Sovereign Grace Family Church in Jacksonville, Florida, and the founder of Sovereign Grace Family Church Karate Club.

We are discussing godly violence in a satanically violent age, debunking the myth of Jesus the pacifist, and a defense of lethally protecting oneself and loved ones from dangerous people.

But before we return to that discussion, I just have a couple of very important announcements to make.

First of all, I am going to be attending, and I'm going to be manning an exhibitor's booth for Iron Sharp and Zion Radio, at the

High Point Baptist Church of Larksville, Pennsylvania, conference coming up,

The Basics of Biblical Counseling. That's Friday and Saturday, August 28th and 29th.

It begins Friday night on the 28th and ends Saturday the 29th at 5 p .m.

And the featured speaker at this conference is

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Q &A session with the audience. If you'd like to find out more about registering for this conference, go to biblicalcounseling .com

forward slash scranton -pa -training

That's biblicalcounseling .com forward slash scranton -pa -training

And as I already said, this is an event of the

High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania. And for more information on that church, you can go to highpointbaptist .church

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Last but not least, if you are not a member of a local Bible -believing church, you need help finding a church. No matter where in the world you live,

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Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put

I need a church in the subject line, whether it's for permanently joining to become a member, or if you're on vacation and you need to have a recommendation for wherever it is you're visiting, or if you have a loved one somewhere in the world who cannot find a church near them that's biblically faithful.

I hope I can help them and you, so send me that email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put

I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address to send in a question to Keith Foskey of Sovereign Grace Family Church in Jacksonville, Florida, as we continue our discussion on godly violence in a satanically violent age.

chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. So, if we could answer that question from John in Bangor, Maine, who wants to know if it's appropriate for Christians to be involved in full contact martial arts, where you actually have a goal to physically hurt the person.

In fact, it's even more so evident in boxing, because you're actually, you're intending to knock a person out in boxing.

That's your main goal. But, if you could respond. Yeah, in fact, you kind of got ahead of me because I was going to mention boxing.

It has been a long time, a long question of whether or not Christians could righteously participate in combat sports.

But I find it interesting that the Apostle Paul actually references boxing in Scripture.

He talks about boxing in Scripture. And so, the idea of combat sports is nothing new.

The Apostle Paul mentions boxing? I thought it was wrestling that he mentions. Well, he talks about wrestling, but let me double check that, because I said it and I'm thinking there is a passage that references striking.

I have to go back and see. I heard that Apollos was a bare -knuckle boxer, but I'm only kidding.

I'm sorry, I'm thinking of, perhaps, Apollo Creed from Rocky Mountain. 1

Corinthians 9 .26, the Apostle Paul says that this is the ESV version of the

Bible. It says, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air.

He's using it as an example. I'm not saying that Apostle Paul was a boxer, but he does reference boxing as an example in the same way that he references running, running the race, as you said, wrestling against principalities and all those things.

So, the concept of boxing is in the Bible. I'm not saying it's endorsing it, I'm just saying it's there.

And so, obviously, what causes a lot of people the greatest amount of consternation,

I think, is the mixed martial arts where it seems almost like human cockfighting, where you're just putting two guys in the ring and you're saying, go at it and there's no rules.

And that's why some people would say boxing is okay because it has a certain standard. Nobody gets kicked while they're down.

If a person is down on the ground, the other person isn't jumping on top of him and pounding him.

And so, people say, well, there's more honor in that. But at the same time,

I take a step back and I say, okay, all sports have a certain amount of violence.

Well, not all sports. I guess golf is fairly safe. Unless somebody loses and is very upset.

Yeah, absolutely. Somebody might throw a golf club and hit somebody else. But in general,

I'm not a big fan of mixed martial arts competition. But I do know that there are some godly people who participate in it.

And I think they look at it much in the same way as there are godly people who participate in football.

There are godly people who participate in hockey. There are godly people who participate in other sports that require a physical interaction with another person where injury can occur.

But I also know this. The goal is not injury. The goal is, in fact, some of the greatest fighters in the world that I'm aware of don't injure people at all when they fight with them.

They overcome them with their skill. Are you talking about martial arts? Yes. Some of the greatest fighters in the world have been the

Gracie family. I don't know if you've ever heard of the Gracie family. No. They came from Brazil.

And they teach an art called Brazilian Jiu -Jitsu or Gracie Jiu -Jitsu. That's what

Voddy Baucom does, right? Yes, it is. And Voddy is amazing. And he would tell you, first of all, that it's one of the greatest systems of self -defense and personal protection that's ever been created.

Because the intention is not to hurt the other person. The intention is to overcome them with weight and leverage and putting them in a position where they can't move or where they can't breathe so that they have to submit.

In fact, the earliest fights of the UFC were promoted by the

Gracie family. The first few fights of the UFC were put out, and the person who won them was a man by the name of Royce Gracie.

You're talking about ultimate fighting champions. Yes. In fact, it started in 1993. It was promoted by Royce Gracie, who was

Royce Gracie's older brother. And they opened it up to any challenger, any style could come.

And Royce Gracie won. And he won by using the techniques that his father had developed.

And he had learned them in Brazil. He learned them from a Japanese judo instructor who had taught them, and he had mastered the art of ground fighting.

And, again, I'm not a jiu -jitsu man. I'm a karate man. But what I'm saying is the people who are really skilled don't hurt people.

Royce Gracie's brother, not Morion, but another brother, is one of the top fighters of all time in open combat, mixed martial arts, whatever you want to call it.

And he was well -known for simply submitting his opponents. He would not pummel them.

He wouldn't beat them into the ground. He would submit them through overwhelming skill. And so, again, are there people who just get into it because they like to hurt people?

Yes. But there are other people who are just, their skill is so amazing that they don't even have to hurt people.

In fact, I want to kind of throw this out there. One of the things that is happening right now is the

Gracie family is trying to encourage police officers to learn Gracie jiu -jitsu so that they have the skill to overcome assailants without having to injure them.

And the skills are there, but it takes a long time to master them because it's not just like learning something very simple.

It's like playing chess with your whole body. And, of course, there's always going to be a debate about full -contact sports.

And I think there is a difference between, although I do love boxing, there is a difference between the boxer's intention to knock someone unconscious than somebody overcoming his opponent with physical power and strength.

Those aren't the same things. Because you can overcome someone with power, like in wrestling, without actually injuring them.

And even in football, when you're tackling someone, you are not purposely trying to injure them so that they are crippled and have to be removed from the field in a stretcher.

Although that happens, that's not your intention. And the same thing with checking in hockey. Now, hockey fights are winked at, and people at least get a penalty for it.

There's usually no severe consequence for it, though, unless it gets really out of hand. But boxing would be the one where you're actually trying to knock a person unconscious.

You're trying to do some kind of brain damage there. Sure, sure. And again, as I said,

I do think that that would fall into the realm of conscience. I don't think it's sin for somebody to participate in a combat sport, but I do think that there are people whose consciences would preclude them from doing it, and therefore they shouldn't do it.

We have an anonymous listener who asks, I have a dear friend who has enrolled his children in martial arts, and when

I have visited their training and competitions, I have been very disturbed to see the class bowing to idols and to see the idols even there to begin with.

Should Christians ever enroll their children in those types of martial art classes where idols exist?

That is a great question, and I'm glad somebody asked it, because I was going to address this. If nobody asked it,

I wanted to bring this up, because there are aspects of Eastern martial arts which are incompatible with Biblical Christianity, and therefore we have to be very discerning about what elements we allow ourselves to participate in as Christians.

In the East, bowing to another person is very similar to a salute or a handshake in the

West. It does not have the sense of worship that we are typically accustomed to.

So, for instance, if you and I had grown up in Japan, bowing to one another upon meeting one another, looking each other in the eye while we bow is a form of respect.

If I were to bow lower than you, that could be a form of disrespect, because that would be me saying that I'm more humble than you, and so there are certain etiquettes that are involved in that.

I've never been to a school that bows to idols, unless you're saying the instructor is setting himself up as an idol, in which case

I would say that's possible, but I've never been in a school that had a Buddha or a statue or something that was bowed to, but I'm sure that it exists.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm just saying I've never seen it. One of the things that we do in our class is we wear the typical what's called a gi.

It's a uniform that comes from Japan. It looks like what a lot of people call pajamas, because it looks like a short robe jacket with pants, and we have a belt that we wear, and the belt represents how far you've advanced in rank.

There are certain things that we do hold on to that are cultural, and we are very particular to expunge any and all of what we would consider to be idolatry from the program.

There certainly is no bowing to idols. There is no bowing in the sense of reverence or worship, and the act of bowing, we look each other in the eye, we tip our heads basically forward in a show of respect.

To me, I explain to people, do you know why people salute? Do you know where the salute comes from?

It probably has involvement in some kind of military activity. When two knights would pass one another or would be involved with one another, if they were showing that they were respectful or friends, they would lift a face shield on their arm, and the lifting of the face shield was where the salute comes from.

It's the idea of showing respect, and so we do that in our military. We show a salute, and in the martial arts, the bow is often a show of respect, but it's not worship, and so we have to understand the purpose of what we're doing.

But like I said, in our club, we are very, very careful to avoid, we don't even use the language of master, even though I do hold the rank of master of karate,

I hold that rank. The students don't call me that, only because I feel like there can be a mixing of messages there.

We have one master who is Jesus Christ, and so typically the students will refer to me as Mr.

Keith, or language like that. And so I am very aware of the potential dangers of that, and if you're in a school, to the person who wrote the email, if you're in a place where you feel like there is an engagement and idolatry, then

I would look for somewhere else. There are many Christian karate schools, there are many Christian programs that do not do that.

In fact, I remember years ago, I knew someone personally who was a karate instructor, or at least a martial arts instructor,

I don't know if it was karate specifically. But I walked into his studios, and there was a

Buddha there, and I was like, hey dude, what's the deal? Oh, that's just a decoration to give the place the ambiance that people expect when they go into a martial arts studio.

That's still wrong, man. You're a Christian, you shouldn't have any idols there.

Whether or not you bow to it, or see any significance in it spiritually, it's still sin.

Yeah, absolutely. The having of a Buddha statue,

I think, is beyond anything that we should do as Christians. I've even seen

Christians have things like that in their homes that are decorations. And it's still wrong, in my opinion, anyway.

Yeah, and one other thing, I'll tell you this, my opinion, and this may not be a popular opinion, but I don't even like the yin and yang symbol that is used in a lot of martial arts schools.

The yin and yang symbol represents dualism, which is part of Eastern religion.

Are you familiar with the symbol I'm talking about? Yeah, the circle, and it has a squiggly line in the middle, and there are different colors on each side, with dots on each side.

Yeah, and I know people who are Christians who wear the yin and yang. I don't like it because it represents, to me, a misunderstanding of the concept of God.

The concept of God, in that sense, it's almost like the concept of dualism is sort of, the best way to describe it, most people understand, like the

Jedi, the light side, the dark side, and the balance of the force. Well, that's very similar.

You know, the guy who created Star Wars didn't come out with that on his own. He was basing that on Eastern philosophy, and it's something that I've tried to avoid.

I don't use the yin and yang symbol because of what it represents. We have Cynthia in Findlay, Ohio, who asks,

I don't see why there is a problem with full contact sports. Both parties, or all parties, are voluntarily engaging, whether it be hockey, football, boxing, etc.

They are not being forced. It is voluntary. So why would there be a question as to whether it is proper?

Well, one thing that I can immediately think of that people often bring up is that it glorifies, in their minds, violence.

But if you could pick up where I left off there. Yeah, I can see how someone would question its propriety.

And the question is the question of whether or not a Christian should do it. I think it's up to the conscience.

I kind of agree with her in one sense, that it is a mutually engaged activity where there's no hatred and there's no animus.

One of the things that I notice when I watch two good martial artists go into the ring is, in general, they enter with a handshake and they leave with a handshake.

And they really weren't trying to injure one another. They were trying to overcome one another with skill. And so I guess

I look at it that way. I would agree with her in that sense. But I can see how someone might take it and say, you know,

Christians bashing other Christians' heads in, that doesn't seem to be very godly. Unless it's church discipline.

Yeah. I mean,

I appreciate her comment. And I would basically agree and say, yeah, again, I think it's up to the conscience.

As the Apostle Paul says, you know, if you cannot do it in faith, then it's sin. And of course, though, however, we do have, since most of the folks involved in these activities are not

Christian, we do have examples of the hype that goes on where either real or feigned, faked hatred exists.

Like professional boxing looks more and more like professional wrestling at times. The way that the opponents before a fight, when they're being weighed and that kind of a thing, will mock each other.

They're sometimes restrained from attacking their opponent before there's even a fight, when they're still in plain clothes and so on.

Sure. And, of course, Cassius Clay, who later became

Muhammad Ali, was the champion of that, beginning with Sonny Liston. And, you know, you have that going on habitually.

And, of course, a Christian should not be involved in that kind of activity in any sport or for any reason.

Yeah, absolutely. Trash -talking is fairly universal. And most, again, unless you play golf, and there might even still be trash -talking in golf.

But, yeah, it's definitely not something that is becoming of a believer. But not everybody who is in those sports, as you noted, is a believer.

But I do think there are some. And so, yeah, I would hope that those who confess

Christ would behave as they should. RJ in White Plains, New York, wants to know,

I know that yoga has occultic and satanic roots.

Are there some forms of martial arts where the people involved are actually trying to conjure up the strength and power of evil spirits or anything similar to that in order to gain victory, things that Christians should never participate in?

Yes. There are, I would agree, that there are certain stances, particularly to yoga but not unique to yoga, certain positions and stances that have religious backgrounds.

I don't pretend to be an expert in them because I've never researched to the point of knowing whether downward -facing dog is anything to do with, you know, because that's one of the yoga positions that I've heard people talk about or, you know, warrior or whatever, the different yoga positions.

I've heard, and Dr. John MacArthur said that, you know, particularly that there are positions in yoga that are specific to religious expression.

And I'm sure that there are those in other martial arts as well. In karate,

I try to explain to people that we are learning to use body mechanics and leverage for the purpose of personal protection and developing the skill of balance is for the purpose of maintaining your footing while in the midst of protecting yourself.

And I am not aware of any stances or positions in the techniques that I teach that are particular to worship.

If they are there, I am ignorant of them because I know what these things are based on in the sense of combat and personal protection.

For instance, a forward stance, your front knee is bent, your back leg is straight. It's the same position you take if you're going to push a car because if you want to push a car, all your weight needs to go forward.

So we call it a forward stance, and we teach people to stand that way if you're going to be motivating yourself forward because it gives you more strength and more leverage and more balance.

The back stance is back knee is bent and turned and your front knee is slightly bent.

It's the same position you'd be if you were playing tug -of -war. The position has certain mechanical advantages for the body, and so you teach what the mechanical advantages are.

As I said, there are positions that I think are religious in nature, particularly in yoga, which is from China and has influence from Buddhism and certainly would avoid that as well.

Okay, we're going to our final break. It's going to be much shorter than the last two breaks. If you have a question, send it in immediately because we are running out of time fairly rapidly.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away.

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Bobby in Hartsdale, New York wants to know is there not sometimes when it comes to any sport that involves fighting a sinful way that some athletes psych themselves up with thoughts of violence, etc.?

I'm sure there are. But I will tell you this, having been a competitor in the past, in my younger years

I competed. I was grand points champion in 1994 in Jacksonville for an open karate tournament.

I even competed a couple of years ago in a jiu -jitsu tournament. I didn't do very well, but I did compete.

And I don't ever remember psyching myself up with any kind of violent thoughts. I simply thought about the techniques that I wanted to do.

I wanted to maintain balance. I think that that's very subjective.

I wouldn't say that that's something that is a right thing to do. Fantasizing about violence and hurting people

I don't think is a positive thing. So yeah, I would discourage that for sure. How about those like us who are fans, spectators, who love seeing somebody get knocked out of the ring who love somebody collapsing to the ground after a roundhouse kick and so on to the side of the head.

What's the deal with that? Is that a Christian response to that? To actually love seeing something like that?

And it could even be fictitious portrayals of that in movies. Yeah, I think that there is a line.

There's a lot of violence in film that is violence for violence sake, gratuitous violence that really is just for the purpose of satisfying that fleshly desire to see someone be injured.

Again, I don't think that that's wholesome and I don't think that that's something that is good.

But again, I can honestly say and I'm not trying to put myself in any kind of place of righteousness here but I can honestly say when

I watch a fight I'm not hoping to see somebody get their teeth knocked in or anything like that. I'm hoping to see a display of skill and the best fighters in the world are the ones who overcome without having to do things like that.

So, that would be my simple answer. Now there's time left to give. By the way, before we run out of time

I understand that you are now hosting your own podcast. If you could tell our listeners about that. Yes, thank you.

Every morning at 6 .30 I do a Bible study and it's called

Coffee with a Calvinist. It's something that I came up with during the pandemic because our church was unable to meet together.

And the mixture of those two things coffee and Calvinism is what results in hyper -Calvinism.

That's exactly it. It is Calvinist. And basically what we're doing right now is just going chapter by chapter through the

New Testament every day we look at a new chapter. So like this morning we looked at chapter 3 of Philippians.

And so every day we go and the reading list is on our website and the link to the podcast is on our website.

So you mentioned already our website is sgfcjacks .org People can go there and people can listen and we deal with a variety of topics.

Whatever the text deals with is what we deal with. And some of it has to do with current events.

Some of it just has to do with what's in the text. It just depends on where we are. So once again that's sgfc standing for Sovereign Grace Family Church jacks,

J -A -X, standing for Jacksonville dot org, sgfcjacks .org

and click on Daily Podcast Coffee with a

Calvinist. And that's Monday through Friday at 6 .30 a .m. Yes, sir.

6 .30 a .m. Eastern. Yes, 6 .30 a .m. Eastern time. Yes, sir. And it goes live on YouTube and Facebook.

That's the link that you'll find there when you go. Great. Well, I want you to have about three minutes to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today before we go off the air.

Okay. Well, most importantly is when I think about the concept of personal protection

I think about what Augustine talked about when he was asked about the concept of war.

Is war ever justified? And he said that the way that he basically justified the idea of war he said, imagine you were to come upon a person who was being hurt and being injured and possibly being killed.

Would you be more loving to simply stand back and allow that to happen or would you be more loving if you intervened and stopped the person which would require an active force to do so?

And therefore, that was his foundation for the concept of just war because we could expand that out to even something like the

Holocaust. Was it right that America intervened to save many

Jewish lives and many other lives during the Nazi Holocaust?

And we even have Dietrich Bonhoeffer involved in the plot to assassinate Hitler and of course,

Dietrich Bonhoeffer had some theological problems being involved in the neo -orthodox camp of theology akin to Karl Barth and so on but he was still a heroic figure but nonetheless was involved in the plot to murder

Hitler. Sure. And so my point is this it is not a denial of the

Christian faith to want to protect others and I don't believe it's a denial of the Christian faith to want to protect yourself in the event of a violent altercation.

I have a family that loves me and I love them. They rely upon me and if I were taken from my family in violence that would do violence to my family and therefore

I have the responsibility as a father to protect my children as a husband to protect my wife and as a provider to protect myself.

So my family expects it of me and if I'm going to be responsible to do something I want to know how to do it well.

So as I said years ago and this is sort of my mantra is I train my hands because there are men out there who want to do violence and I do not want to be their victim.

Great. Well, Pastor Keith it has been such a joy to have you on the program today.

I look forward to frequent return visits from you and other topics addressed and once again

I want to remind our listeners how they can get a hold of you. The website is sgfcjax .org

S -G -F -C standing for Sovereign Grace Family Church Jax, J -A -X dot org and I also want to remind folks that if you can make it to the

Scranton, Pennsylvania area on Friday and Saturday the 28th and 29th of August I will be there,

God willing manning an exhibitors booth for Iron Trip and Zion Radio at the Basics of Biblical Counseling Conference at High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, PA right near Scranton and once again the speaker is

Dale Johnson the President of ACBC which stands for the

Association of Certified Biblical Counselors and sessions include

The Need for Biblical Counseling The Definition and Goal of Biblical Counseling Progressive Sanctification Qualifications of a

Biblical Counselor Secular and Integration Theories What Makes Biblical Counseling Biblical and a

Q &A session with the audience you can find out all that you need to know about registering at www .biblicalcounseling

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