Responding To Questions & Criticism (Pre-Trib, Pre-Mil, End Times Bible Prophecy) #eschatology

Moore's Corner Church

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Hello and thank you for listening to the Testing the Spirits podcast. In this episode, we're going to be talking about End Times Bible Prophecy.

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That's right, eschatology, that subject that so many people try to sidestep and avoid because everyone seems to disagree.

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Okay, Christians can agree on 99 % of issues, but when it comes to this, there's all sorts of disagreement.

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I think that's why a lot of pastors sidestep questions. They don't want to talk about it, and some pastors do not preach on eschatology.

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But here's the thing, this is the return of Christ. This is Bible doctrine. We have to preach the whole counsel of God.

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But at the same time, let's be gracious because there is so much disagreement.

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We're not going to be condemning people who hold two different viewpoints. But in this video, this podcast, depending if you're listening on Spotify or YouTube, in this podcast,

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I'm going to be defending some of my teachings because I've got some pushback, so I'm going to tell you what

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I believe and why. But that's my starting point, that we're going to be gracious.

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If you condemn someone, there's two extremes. I've known people that are pre -trib, and they say, if you're not pre -trib, you're not even saved.

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Okay, no, that's an extreme, and I don't support that at all. And then there's other people who say, well, if you are pre -trib, you're a heretic if you're pre -trib.

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Or if you're post -trib, you're a heretic, or you're this, or you're ... No, no. We do not go there when it comes to this subject.

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There are teachings that are beyond the pale, okay? There are things that are crossing the line when it comes to Bible prophecy.

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Setting a date for the rapture, saying that God told me the rapture is going to happen June 2nd, 842

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PM, 2025. Okay, that enters into the realm of false teaching.

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Full preterism, saying that Jesus already came back. That the entire book of Revelation, even the new heaven and new earth, it's all been fulfilled.

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Full preterism. I mean, that people do consider heretical. But other than those two things, whatever your view is of Bible prophecy, pre -trib, post -trib, mid -trib, post -trib, pre -wrath, amillennial, post -millennial, premillennial, we're not condemning anybody.

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Okay, so I believe that this saying applies. Maybe you've heard this. Someone once said, in the essentials, unity.

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In the non -essentials, liberty. And in all things, charity. So that's my starting point when we talk about Bible prophecy.

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We can have liberty to maybe see things differently. And if you disagree with me,

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I think you're wrong. But I still think you're a brother in Christ, and hopefully you'll extend that same charity.

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Okay, let's get into it. I'll give you my position, and then I'll read some of the comments and criticism that I've received and I'll respond to that.

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So I am premill. As far as the millennial positions, I believe that Jesus returns before the millennium.

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And I do believe in a literal 1 ,000 -year kingdom here upon the earth. Why? Because Jesus, in the

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Olivet Discourse, he talked about his return, and that's Matthew 24.

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And then the kingdom is established in chapter 25. So Jesus comes back before the kingdom.

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His return is premillennial. The term millennial refers to the 1 ,000 years.

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Okay, that's what Revelation 20 says. Now some people say, well, 1 ,000 years, that's symbolic language.

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Well, John writes it, and he's getting this revelation from Jesus. He mentions 1 ,000 years six times.

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So I believe it's literal. That's the plain reading of the text. So that's

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Revelation 20, and the return of Christ is in Revelation 19 before the millennium. So Jesus comes back in Matthew 24.

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The kingdom is set up in 25. Same thing in Revelation. Jesus comes back in Revelation 19.

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The kingdom is set up in chapter 20. Therefore, the return of Christ is premillennial. Okay, I'm not going to say

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I'm dogmatic, but I'm pretty close to being dogmatic on premillennialism.

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When it comes to the rapture, however, I am not dogmatic when it comes to the timing of the rapture.

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Some people don't know this, but there are Christians who are amillennial and postmillennial, and they don't believe in a rapture at all.

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So this debate over the rapture is really amongst premillennialists. So I lean pre -trib, okay?

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I can see how the mid -trib position could work, or the post -trib pre -wrath that's similar to mid -trib, and I can see that.

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But I lean pre -trib, and I teach the pre -trib position, telling people that I'm not dogmatic.

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This isn't a point of dogma like the resurrection of Christ. To be a

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Christian, you must believe in the resurrection. You must believe in the deity of Christ. The pre -trib rapture is not at that level.

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So we could be wrong. If you're post -trib, you could be wrong. But I, you know, you need to have a position.

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You need to, and every pastor, like I said, I think every pastor does have a position. They just sometimes don't want to talk about it.

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Maybe they're not certain, and they don't want to preach on it because they're not certain. But I mean, if you're a pastor, you should know what you believe.

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But I lean pre -trib, and I lean pre -trib for the following reasons. 1

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Thessalonians 4 is that classic rapture passage, and chapter 4 is before 1

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Thessalonians 5, where Paul talks about the tribulation or the day of the Lord. So the layout in 1

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Thessalonians, the rapture comes before the tribulation. So again, 1

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Thessalonians 4, 13 through 18, Paul mentions the rapture. The saints are caught up to meet the

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Lord in the air. That's what the word rapture means. The very next words out of Paul's mouth in chapter 5, and remember, there are no chapter divisions in the original letter.

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The next words out of Paul's mouth are concerning the timing, and he says, well, you know that the day of the

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Lord so comes as a thief in the night. So it seems that the rapture triggers the day of the

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Lord, which is the tribulation period. Because Paul mentions when they say peace and safety, then sudden destruction comes upon them like labor pains upon a pregnant woman, and that term labor pains directly connects it to Jesus talking about the tribulation in Matthew 24.

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So if you look at 1 Thessalonians 4, the rapture is before the tribulation in chapter 5.

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Also in Revelation 3, 10 and verses 10 and 11, Jesus says that I will keep you from the hour of trial, which is coming upon the whole world.

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That is a prophetic statement. He's talking to the church in Philadelphia. So some people say, well, that's the first century and yeah, but it's a prophetic statement because Jesus says in verse 11, behold,

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I'm coming quickly. So he's talking about the context of his return, the end times, and he says to the faithful church,

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I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole earth. That all along with 1

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Thessalonians, it all lands towards the pre -trib position. Also in Revelation, the book of Revelation chapters two and three, right?

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The church has talked about as being on earth in chapters four and five. John sees the church in heaven as represented by the 24 elders.

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If you read commentaries, almost all commentators agree, the 24 elders represent the redeemed or the church.

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So John is caught up in Revelation four at the sound of the trumpet sounds like it might be a type or a foreshadow of the rapture.

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And he sees the church in heaven and the churches in heaven before chapter six, which is the beginning of the tribulation.

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So the church is in heaven before the tribulation starts. If you look at the book of Revelation, also

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Paul in first Corinthians 15 reveals the rapture, he calls it a mystery. So this is something new that was previously unknown in old

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Testament times. But the second coming of Christ, the second advent of Christ to the earth in Matthew 24, that's a separate event because the advent of Messiah to earth to reign as a conquering king was very well known in the old

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Testament. So the rapture is a new event that Paul is revealing. That's why he calls it a mystery.

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And that's what I'm saying. This coming of the Lord in Matthew 24 is not the rapture.

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It's the second advent of Christ to the earth and the rapture. Jesus doesn't come to the earth. He comes to take believers to the place that he prepared.

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As he said in John 14, I behold, I go to prepare a place for you.

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And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you unto myself that where I am there.

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You may be also. So Jesus is going to come and he's going to take believers to heaven.

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He's not going to rapture them up to meet him in, in the air to bring them straight back down to a war torn earth.

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No, he says, I'm going to bring you to the father's house. So Jesus, you could say that Jesus maybe gave a little hint of the rapture in John 14, but it was

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Paul who really, you know, fully revealed that doctrinal truth. And again, Paul calls it a mystery.

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So that's something that was previously not known. So based on all of these things, you know,

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Matthew 24, again, that's not the rapture. I believe that's the second advent of the Messiah to the earth.

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That is for the Jews. It's not for the church. Jesus is referring to the

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Jews, to Israel. That will Israel is going to have to endure the 70th week of Daniel.

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That's a prophecy given to Israel in Matthew 24. Jesus addresses people living in Judea.

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He says, pray that your flight is not on the Sabbath. He's talking to Israel.

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Okay. Cause the church I believe is in heaven during that time. So that's why

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I believe in the pre -tribulation position. All right, next let's get into the questions.

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So the first question, actually the first one I got was not really a question.

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It was more of a criticism. A guy named Jim M who got blocked.

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Okay. I don't, I don't like blocking people on my channel, but I will, I will block people if they're going to be nasty.

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So this guy, Jim M, he claims that people who teach the rapture are deceivers.

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Listen, there's a big difference between being wrong about something. If you think I'm wrong, okay,

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I think you're wrong. Fine. Like we can agree to disagree without, you know, labeling somebody a deceiver.

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Your view of eschatology does not rise to the level of false teaching as in heresy.

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Nobody I know thinks that way except for the most radical, you know, divisive people that are just going to call any, if you disagree with me on anything, you're a heretic.

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Like people like that, I don't want to deal with them. Now there are some people, the opposite extreme where they defend heresy and they don't care about heresy.

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And that's, that's an extreme we've been dealing with on this podcast a lot, but people who just label someone a heretic for just any old reason, no, there's a big difference between being wrong and being a deceiver.

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But this guy, Jim, Jim M, who again is blocked because I'm just not going to deal with people like this.

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He says that anyone who teaches the rapture is a deceiver and he condemns them.

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Okay, well let's just deal with what he said for a moment. I probably shouldn't give them the time of day.

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But he says there is no pre -trib rapture. He says, even, and he's talking about me and my sermon, uh, the, all of the discourse part two, he says, even in the pastor's own words, he says that we are to endure to the end, right?

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And if you actually listen closely to the sermon, that was the application that I was giving to the church.

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But if you listen closely, uh, you would have heard that that statement, when Jesus says he who endures to the end will be saved.

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That was for people living during the tribulation. Okay. Then he writes, did Noah not see great tribulation as a flood?

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Did lot see great tribulation as Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire?

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He says both were protected by God, which I agree with. And then he said, Jesus said in John six 40, that all who believe in him, he will raise them up on the last day.

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He did not say only a few church members would be raised up. Well, that's a straw man argument.

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I never said only a few church members will be raised up. So he then says, uh, those who teach, uh, the rapture theory have zero scriptures that support it.

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I already gave a scripture revelation three, 10 and 11. Jesus says, because you have kept my command to persevere,

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I also will keep you from the hour of trial, which shall come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth.

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Behold, I'm coming quickly. Now, someone can say, yeah, but that, that's not just pre -trib that applies to the mid trip position.

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Okay. I mean, if that's what you're convinced of, fine. I'm not going to condemn you, but don't don't condemn somebody over this doctrine of the rapture.

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Uh, if you think I'm wrong, pray for me. But, uh, this is, this is an area where Christians disagree.

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Good brothers and sisters see it differently. And again, the first, uh, the first argument

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I made for the pre -trib rapture first Thessalonians four is the rapture first Thessalonians five is the tribulation.

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So the rapture is before the tribulation. Okay. So moving on, he was just looking to condemn people who disagree with him.

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So I'm just not going to waste my time anymore on people like that. However, if someone is respectful and they ask a question, let's say they respectfully disagree and they say, well, what about this passage?

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What about this? Uh, that's fine. So I will address that. Here's another question from Tim F.

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Okay. Tim F says, hi, Pastor Grant. May I ask a few questions in regard to your teaching in light of Jesus's words in Matthew 24, 21 and 22, he says that the great tribulation, uh, will be short, uh,

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Jesus does say the days will be shortened, correct? Jesus says this two times and that it will occur after the apostasy and after the abomination of desolation.

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So I'm not, I'm not so sure. Well, I do believe that the great tribulation does happen after those events.

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Okay. So far so good. Where do you come to the conclusion? So this is this question.

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Where do you come to the conclusion that the short great tribulation is seven years in length?

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And of course I, I never said that I'll address it in a moment. In light of first Thessalonians five, one through four, where do you come to the conclusion that Jesus is coming for believers like a thief in the night?

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I understand the imminent preacher of rapture view is very popular and as many prominent individuals who teach this view, and that's correct, this is the majority viewpoint.

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You have a dispensational teachers like David Jeremiah and Charles Stanley, and I realized

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Charles Stanley has passed away, but you know, Adrian Rogers and just all, all sorts of people who believe in the preacher of rapture, but even some people in the reformed camp like John MacArthur, and there's a lot of people who teach the pre -trip position.

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Again, this is the majority viewpoint. So he acknowledges that many prominent individuals teach this, but he says,

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I have studied this topic for many years and believe that the correct view is that the rapture occurs at the midpoint.

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Okay. At the last trumpet of first Corinthians 15. And I've seen that I, you know,

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I can understand that opinion. I've studied this and I think that is, you know, if I'm wrong, if, if pre -trib ends up not being true,

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I'll be, I'll hold to your position. Okay. So let's address his question.

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Okay. He has two questions. I responded and I said this, the 70th week of Daniel is seven years.

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Okay. This is the tribulation. It's typically called the tribulation.

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It's seven years based on the 70th week of Daniel. But I said the great tribulation is only the final 42 months, which could be cut short based on Jesus's words in first Thessalonians five.

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So the point is I never said that the great tribulation is the entire seven years. No, the great tribulation is the final three and a half years, 42 months in that time period could be cut short, but I don't know.

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I mean, I, I'm not sure that it's going to be cut in half or anything like that. And then I mentioned how in first Thessalonians five, there were no chapter divisions in the original letter, which we mentioned.

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So Paul is speaking about the rapture in first Thessalonians four, 13 through 18.

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And then the next words out of his mouth are concerning the timing, which he says the day of the

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Lord, which begins immediately after the rapture. It happens as a thief in the night.

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So I said, Paul's words based on Paul's words, the rapture in chapter four,

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I believe triggers the day of the Lord or the tribulation. Therefore the rapture is imminent.

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It is imminent, which is why believers are consistently, and there's just a variety of passages where believers are told to watch and be ready.

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Then at the midpoint of the seven years, you have the abomination of desolation, which begins the final 42 months, which is the great tribulation.

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I told him I can see where you're coming from the mid trip view or the post trip pre wrath view, which is sort of like mid trip, a variation of that.

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I said, I can see that I understand it, but in the layout of first Thessalonians four and five, uh,

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I believe the rapture is happening before the tribulation. Also in revelation chapters four and five,

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John is caught up and sees the church represented by the 24 elders depicted as already being in heaven.

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Then the tribulation begins in chapter six. So hopefully this all clears up a few things and maybe you still disagree with me.

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That's fine. That's fine. Listen, I don't doubt that when Jesus comes back or when I get to heaven, that, you know,

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I might have a few things corrected. I don't think anyone has the end times completely figured out 100%, but after 20 years of studying this subject,

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I am convinced of the pre millennial position, absolutely. And when it comes to the rapture,

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I'll say it again, I'm not dogmatic, but I am convinced that Christians will not experience the judgments, certainly not the great tribulation, uh, because Paul says in the context of his eschatological teaching and first Thessalonians four, that believers are not appointed to wrath.

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But as of now, I lean towards pre -trib. If that turns out to be wrong and we find ourselves living in the tribulation and we see the abomination of desolate, then

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I'll be, I'll be mid -trib or post -trib pre -wrath. And if that doesn't turn out, then as a last resort,

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I will finally adopt a post -trib. But I do believe that the Lord has promised to deliver his people and I'm going to trust in that by faith.

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And if you think I'm wrong, pray for me. I might disagree with you, but I still think we can be good brothers and sisters in Christ and disagree on this subject.