May 29, 2024 Show with Jeff Rose on “Depression in the Pastorate”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 29th day of May, 2024.

Before I introduce my guest and topic, I want to remind all of you men in ministry leadership that next week,

Thursday, June 6th, is our next free, biannual Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastor's Luncheon, and this time, for the very first time ever, we are featuring our guest speaker,

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Beeky and I have been friends for decades going back to the early 1990s, and I am so delighted that I have the providential opportunity to have him as our speaker for the first time.

And remember, this is a free event, so not only is admission free and you're lunch free, but in addition to all of that, every man who attends is going to receive a very heavy sack, perhaps even two very heavy sacks, of free brand new books, personally selected by me and donated by Christian publishers all over the

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Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, which is Perry County, Pennsylvania, please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line. Well, today

I am delighted to have a returning guest that has not been on this program for a very long time.

In fact, the last time he was on the program was when Iron Trip and Zion Radio was broadcasting live out of WNYG and WGBB radio in Babylon, Long Island, New York, and he was right there in the studio with me and Dr.

James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, who was in town for some debates and conferences, and his name is

Jeff Rose. He is Senior Pastor of 116 Bible Church in Watauga, Texas, and he can correct my pronunciation if I got that wrong, and he's also founder of Jeremiah Cry Ministries and founder of Anxious Bench Ministry, and today we are going to be addressing a very important theme, one that really hits home with me, depression in the pastorate, one minister's journey through mental darkness and counsel on managing it, shedding light on a hidden battle, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back after such a long absence to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Jeff Rose.

Well, thank you, Chris. It's an honor and a privilege to be here. I'm very thankful to be on the show with you today.

And if you could, let our listeners know something about 116 Bible Church, and of course, explain the name.

Okay, 116 Bible Church comes from Romans 1 .16, declaring that all the power comes from the gospel of Christ, not from ourselves.

That's what drives our entire ministry there at 116. So it's a church plant of seven years.

I planted the church seven years ago, along with another elder who had passed away from cancer, and brought on another elder since then, and we are still plugging along.

So, yeah. And is this a Reformed Baptist church? It most certainly is.

I mean, it is part of the ARBCA, or the Reformed Baptist, as far as the movement is concerned, but it is

Reformed, and we are Baptistic. So our soteriology is Reformed, and we believe in baptism by immersion.

So that's kind of where we stand. So we stand with the 1689, of course, and that kind of fuels everything that we do.

Well, if anybody, especially if they live in or near Watauga, Texas, or you have family, friends, and loved ones in or near there, or if you're just passing through there on vacation, or on a business trip, and you'll be there on a

Lord's Day, the website is 116biblechurch .com.

That's 116, spelled out with numbers, biblechurch .com. And by the way, did

I butcher Watauga, Texas, or is there another pronunciation? Yeah, that's fine. It's Watauga, is kind of how

I've been taught to say it, but I think your pronunciation is fine. Well, now tell us about Jeremiah Crime Ministries.

Well, Jeremiah Crime Ministries was started in 2006. I was going to school, and it was in Dallas, Texas, and I was affiliated with another street ministry,

Way of the Master, at the time. We were with another company called The Great News Network, and at the time, they were a sister ministry to the

Way of the Master, and its front line ministry was open -air preaching.

And I spent a lot of time out on the streets, felt a calling to do this, and through much prayer and the study of God's Word, I felt like the

Lord had drawn me to Jeremiah, to Jeremiah's ministry, at which Jeremiah's name means

God will raise us up, and Jeremiah was the weeping prophet. He cried out, not only to his own people, but to the nations abroad, and I felt like that was what we should do as a ministry.

Well, if anybody wants more details on that ministry, go to jeremiahcry .com, jeremiahcry .com.

Last but not least, let our listeners know about The Anxious Bench, and that especially requires explanation, because if you're a

Reformed Baptist and you're listening, or a Presbyterian, you might say to yourself, wait a minute, is this guy doing altar calls?

Is he a devotee of Charles Finney? What's going on here? I know it's a play on words, because if you could explain it.

Yeah, yeah, so The Anxious Bench is really a place to go for those who are looking for a place to restore their mind.

In a sense, what I mean by that is to find fellowship in their suffering. It is a site designed specifically to encourage, to inspire, and to offer hope for those who suffer with depression and anxiety.

Okay, and is there a special website for that? There's not a website. It's just on our

Facebook page. If you look up The Anxious Bench, you can find that. You can even find that off my personal page as well.

There's a link there in my bio, description should be there. And then, yeah, once you get to the page, you will see it's pretty much just quotes and just different memes and things just to encourage one another and have unity, a place to go for those who are suffering, and a place to be able to just go to restore your mind and be encouraged.

All right, great. Well, since it's been so long since you've been on the program,

I want you to do what we typically only have our first -time guests do on the program, and that's give a summary of their salvation testimony.

And so if you could provide for our listeners a bit of your story, including the religious atmosphere in which you were raised, if any, and also the kind of providential circumstances our

Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to Himself and saved you. Yes, sir. Well, for 28 years,

I was in the world a very intense individual, a very violent individual, come from a past of violence as well, traumatized childhood.

And all the way up to the age of 28, I was in bars, I was bouncing,

I was doing work like that. And I'd moved from, I grew up in Michigan, I moved to Arizona.

Specifically, I wanted to start my own gym business, but I had nothing to start a business with.

I really didn't have any money. I really didn't have anything. But I was able to find a place, find some shelter in a very rundown part of Arizona, where it's extremely hot coming out of Michigan into Arizona.

I went into a home and just, I mean, in that home, they only had a swamp cooler, and it was 116 degrees outside.

And I literally boiled to death. But in that type of environment, I started bouncing and getting involved in the clubs there.

And I was offered a job because I really wanted to get in the fitness industry because that's what I did in Michigan.

I won the Mr. Kalamazoo 1996 Bodybuilding Championship at that time, and I was really just wanting to do my own thing.

I didn't realize how hard it would be to get there, though, and what kind of providence that God would have for me to get there.

I didn't turn to it. I ended up getting offered a job as a salesman at a gym, and that didn't work out well, so they gave me a job as a personal trainer.

I did so well that my schedule became very full. I became very good at what

I did, and I moved to a bigger facility, and my clientele even got larger to the point where I went ahead and I said,

I've got all these clients. I've developed my own philosophy. I need to start my own gym. With no money,

I got basically laughed out of the banks. They thought it was funny. And eventually, through God's providence, one thing led to another, and I was able to have my own gym.

It did come to pass, and during that time, I became a Christian at 28 years old.

By the way, I already have the name for your gym. Guns and Roses?

That would have been a better one than I had. We called it the Fit Stop. Our gym was right under the shadow of the

Mormon temple. It took off really well because I had very large

Mormon families that would come, and they would bring all their families. They even told me, they said, as long as you're here, you'll never go out of business.

You can imagine the witnessing opportunities and things that I had while I was there. But how

I got saved? While I first got my foot into the gyms, a very frail, small person, as we would probably think, more of like a nerdy person, approached me.

I was very big, and I was training him. He was very forthright, and he began to share the gospel with me.

He wasn't frightened. He was bold. He told me about the cross of Christ. He said, Hey, listen, if you want another chance at life, if you want to start over, if you want to begin again, consider what

I just told you. I considered it, and I said, I would love to sit down and talk again. We talked again.

He shared the gospel with me again. He asked me if I wanted more time to wait and pray about it. I said, No. I want to give my life to Christ at that moment, and I did.

I obviously felt a dramatic change in my transition within my being.

From that point on, I was caught up in the charismatic movement very heavily, a lot of quirky, crazy, kooky stuff.

But I didn't know the difference. I didn't know that it was wonky and wrong. I had nothing to compare it with because that's all

I knew. I went from leaving there, and then I went to a giant mega church, all the easy believism, all that stuff.

Finally, I ended up going to an Assembly of God church where the preacher at least preached on health and preached against sin.

I kind of felt my sanctification kick in at that point. From there, I ended up selling the gym business.

We moved to Texas. During my time in Texas, when

I went to the school, I was brought on, as a matter of fact, as an evangelism teacher by God's providence.

I was taking out people on the streets every Saturday, a large team, 50 people, preaching in the open air.

At that time, I was Armenian. I didn't really know the difference of what's Arminianism or what's

Calvinism or anything. I had no idea. Then I ended up getting an invitation, and I moved to Scotland.

While I was in Scotland, I was there for two years. It was then I was reading a lot of the books that I was finding in some of these old bookstores.

They were all reformed. They were like these old, beat -up Presbyterian books. I would find them in the corner of these old bookstores, and I began to read them.

Who was the one that invited you to Scotland? Well, it was interesting, because I was teaching a class at this school that I was at—this unbiblical school, by the way—and a gentleman came in.

He was from Uganda, but he had a ministry in Scotland. He had told me after the class was over that he said to me,

Scotland needs you. It wasn't Idi Amin, was it? The king of Scotland, as he called himself?

It wasn't him, but the gentleman was very kind, and he said,

Let's meet for prayer at the track, 6 a .m., met him for prayer, got done praying with him for an hour.

He had basically said, If you ever need anything, I'm here. I can introduce you to people over there.

He left. I went out with my business, began to pray and seek the Lord about Scotland. About a year later,

I lost all of his information, and somehow, through providence, obviously,

I got an email from him. The conversation took off again, and he said,

We're waiting for you here. So I got a ticket to Scotland, took a friend with me. I went there, and when

I got there, I had eight interviews set up for me. The third interview was the worst.

It was raining. It was windy. He could barely hear me, and on the last day that I was heading home,

I got a phone call from him, and this guy says, I want to move you and your family here in Scotland, and your assignment is going to be to preach the gospel on the streets as we plant this church in Glasgow.

So for two years, that's what I did. I proclaimed Christ in the open air, out on the streets of Glasgow, and saw the move of God like I've never seen before.

Crowds gathering around, two to three hundred, four hundred people, not walking by, by the way, but circling around you, arguing, yelling, some people crying, some people jumping on your back, throwing things at you.

Very aggressive, but I loved every minute of it. It was a street preacher's paradise.

And then when I came back, we lived on an RV for two years, a 1986

Southwind. Nothing worked in it. It was like a trash can with wheels. Broke down, seemed like every, every 50 miles.

And we're traveling across the United States, trying to get Jeremiah Cry off the ground. I'm preaching at churches, college campuses, wherever I can.

And at the end of that two years, we finally moved into a house, and that's kind of how everything took off.

Al, praise God. How did you eventually wind up pastoring 116

Bible Church? Well, that's a great question, because while I was in New Jersey, and this is where we landed, by the way, after the

RV, we were in New Jersey for I'm not sure how long, six years. I had got called to do a conference on street preaching here at a church called

Grace Reformed Baptist Church. And it's no longer in existence any longer, but they brought me down here for a three -day conference.

I preached all the three days, went really well, so well that they wanted to invite me back permanently to be on staff at their church.

We went home, we prayed about it, sought the Lord, and they went ahead and they paid for us everything we owned.

All of our vehicles got transported down there. I was now on staff at this church, and then it was a very legalistic church, very abusive church.

We didn't realize it until we got in it. And six months later, it dissolved. And they were paying our rent and all of this, and now we were kind of stranded.

And those that were left over from this church asked us to continue the work. I denied it three times, and finally,

I agreed after the fourth time. I said I'd pray about it. My wife and I prayed about it.

Jeremy Roten and his wife, a couple other fellows that were still remaining, and I think there was a couple other church members.

And we decided to go with it. And here we are seven years later. Well, praise

God. I'm going to give our email address to our listeners, and we're going to be going to our first commercial break in a moment.

Folks, if you know anyone that is battling depression, give them a call during our commercial break, or send them a text, or send them an email, or get a hold of them on social media, however you communicate with people these days, and tell them to log in to IronTroopinsIronRadio .com

and click live stream it so that they can hear today's program.

You never know, it might be used of our sovereign God to actually save a life, let alone transform a life.

So anybody who wants to send us a question about depression, especially about depression in the pastoral ministry, but obviously anybody who is experiencing depression of any kind, you may feel free to send us an email with a question at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. And you may remain anonymous if your question is involving a personal and private matter, and obviously with a topic like depression, assuming that this may evoke very personal and private questions from listeners due to the nature of the subject.

So we look forward to hearing from you and your questions for Jeff Rose at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away, we'll be right back after these messages.

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So go to royaldiadem .com today and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We're now back with Jeff Rose.

He is pastor of a church in Texas and he's also the founder of Jeremiah Cry Ministries and the

Anxious Bench Ministry. And we are discussing depression in the pastorate.

And if you have a question for Jeff, send us an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence, and only remain anonymous if your question is personal and private.

And Jeff, this is, as I said at the outset of the program, a topic that is near and dear to my own heart.

I am one who battles depression and perhaps my own struggles with it pale into insignificance when compared with what some of our listeners are enduring or perhaps even what you are enduring or have endured.

But tell us when, well, actually before you even tell us about how this first reared its ugly head, as they say, in your own life, but before you even do that, if you could give us a definition of depression because some folks may think it's just when you're sad or something.

They may not have an accurate definition for depression. So tell us about what you believe is a true definition of depression and then tell us about how it became to unfortunately rear its ugly head in your life.

Yeah, well, I'm sorry you're going through that, Chris. That is definitely a struggle that I have as well that I'll explain.

But, yeah, I mean, depression, it has so many different faces, right? It customizes itself to each and each individual differently.

It literally, I mean, for some, it's biological, it's hereditary. It comes through the family.

They just have a, you know, a propensity towards it because of just who they are and their family.

They inherit that. There's trauma -based where someone goes through severe trauma. And that is really the foundation to their depression.

And then you get the environmental, right, where someone is subjected to certain things within their environment that causes them to feel a certain way.

Depression, you know, the word, you know, is one of those words where we use it all the time, right?

He's depressed or, you know, just really upset. And I was very depressed because my football game, you know, my team lost.

And we throw that word around quite a bit. But it's certainly not what we're talking about today. Certainly not the experience that I went through.

Clinical depression is different than just feeling sad and unhappy or there's unmet needs or unsatisfactory goals in your life.

I mean, people can get sad over those things. But being clinically depressed is different. This is something that comes upon a person.

And still to this day, no one can give an accurate definition of depression just because it is so mysterious.

But yet it is so powerful. You've got 800 ,000 people worldwide committing suicide every year.

There's an issue. You have 280 million people in the world at this point who have depression, 21 million adults just in America.

So, I mean, it's a prevalent issue. But to come to an exact definition, I'm not sure that we can.

But it certainly is a very, for some, it can be mild.

And for others, like you said, it can be extremely, extremely harsh and extremely heavy.

And this is why it's so important to talk about it, because it is one of those elephant in the room.

It's one of those things that we're just not addressing in the church today. And I think a lot of it is because people are blamed for the way that they feel or things that they're going through.

They are put in a position where it's a character flaw and not something that has happened to them without their invitation.

I can tell you this, that no one in their right mind would ever choose to be depressed.

I can just say that right now. No one wants to feel like that. No one's going to fake that.

Now, obviously, there are people out there that do jump on the bandwagon that are fakes.

Don't get me wrong. But those who really struggle with it, trust me, they would rather not have it, period.

Well, tell us how and the circumstances and when you began to first experience depression.

Well, I've always struggled with it throughout my life at some level. I just never really knew what it was.

I had panic attacks when I was a kid, anxiety throughout my life, and I always had an uneasiness just about myself that I could never pinpoint what is this feeling that I have.

But the second year into our church plant, it was 2019, we planted in 2017, and I was working bivocationally.

I was an operations manager for a security company at five different sites that I was watching over. I had a lot of responsibilities.

I was a brand new pastor two years. I didn't know what I was doing. I had people coming and going and people giving me problems and people trying to take over the church and opportunists coming in there.

I had wolves coming in there, and I was just getting slaughtered. I knew

I didn't want to quit. I knew I was called to it, but I was just getting beat up so bad on that end.

And then the struggles that I was having as an operations manager, all the pressure, all the anxiety.

And one day on my way to work, I was driving to work and it was like something crawled over my shoulder and I felt like I was having a heart attack.

And I pulled over. I'm like, OK, something is clearly wrong with me. I can't put my finger on it.

I haven't had a feeling like this before. I felt like I was dropping off of a cliff and it just kept and then it would stop.

And I was just covered in sweat. So I pulled open my Bible. I was reading my Bible. I was terrified.

I thought I was having a heart attack. So I went to one of those little dock in the box places. I went in there.

I told them I think something is wrong with me. I may be having a heart attack. They did an EKG and did all this stuff like I'm sure many of the listeners would agree with.

They may have went through this same thing. Most of us do. So I went there. I was checked out perfectly fine.

Everything was balanced out. I came home that night. I told my wife

I really wasn't sure what happened to me. I wasn't sure. And then I started just feeling these waves going through me.

It's like these waves. I couldn't really put a finger on it, but just like these waves moving through me. So. That night,

I went to bed at three o 'clock in the morning is when it all fell on me.

I got up, looked in the mirror. I said, what's happening? I feel like I'm dying. So I woke my wife up, told her what was going on, sat on the edge of the bed and sat there.

We talked it out and wasn't really sure what to do yet because I'd already been to that.

I'd already got my I already got my heart checked. At this point, I was really frightened, went back to bed.

And when I woke up in the morning, I was in a full blown depression so bad that I couldn't

I couldn't I could not move. And day in, day out, I could not get out of the bed.

So finally, I just I ended up saying I need to go to the doctor. But this was after I saw a video.

I don't know if you're familiar with who Tommy Nelson is. He has a Bible church in Datton.

Oh, yeah. I was there a couple of years ago for their Bible conference. And that was the first time

I was ever in Texas at all and really enjoyed meeting Pastor Tommy, who

I believe is either in the process of retiring or he's already done it. Yeah, yeah.

I'm not sure I had a chance to sit down with him as well, because someone had sent me I had reached out on Facebook, told everybody the best to my knowledge as having a breakdown.

And I explained a little bit of it. And someone sent me a video of him. And he told his testimony.

I think that's what happened to me. So he told me some of the medications he went on.

And I went to the doctor. I got these medications. And because a couple days on those medications,

I was laying in bed one night. I heard this loud, almost sound like a lightning crack in my brain.

And it threw my body into a I'm not sure if you're familiar with akathisia.

But it threw my body into severe, severe akathisia.

Akathisia is by far the worst hell that could ever happen to a human being on this planet.

It is sheer terror. It is like it is like you're tracking your body.

You're suffocating. You're in you're in absolute, utter terror. It's horrifying.

You're panicking at Mach a million, right? And you can't stop moving.

You cannot stop pacing, pacing, pacing. I couldn't I couldn't stop pacing. I could not stop moving.

I would lay in bed and my leg would stick straight out would vibrate like a like a like a rattle on the on a rattlesnake.

My leg would just quiver all night long and I would get up and just an utter terror and it wouldn't go away.

And the scary thing about this is, is that it tricks the mind into believing that you're going to be stuck like this.

And this is why a lot of people who get akathisia kill themselves, not because they want to die, but they want the pain to stop because it's so severe.

So at this point, I was in a very, very, very, very bad place.

And I was clinging to the scriptures. I was reading the Psalms. I was I was it's only thing that I had to add any kind of meaning to the experience that I was going through.

The akathisia had no idea what that was. I just knew something else had just occurred to me.

And I was I was not in a very, very good place. And I wasn't sure if I was going to be stuck like that for the rest of my life.

I was missing church. I was missing church. The church is starting to wonder what's wrong with Jeff. Where is he?

I remember one time literally getting up and I was trembling so bad, putting my pants on and putting my shirt on.

And I was just the grossest, terrifying feeling. But I felt like I had to go to the church. I went to my own church.

I sat in the back row and I was just in such a state of panic and dread and terror that I just I just could not wait to get out of there.

I got back in my car, was able to get home and I laid in bed. I fell asleep literally for like a day and a half and I didn't move.

And this went on probably for about four and a half months, five months. And then it started to go away.

And as it started going away, it went from akathisia to severe anhedonia.

That's where you flatline emotionally. That's where your body no longer has an ability to feel to feel pleasure.

Like I just I had no I couldn't even get out of bed. I mean, just to take a shower, just the thought of taking a shower seemed like climbing

Mount Everest. Wow. And I would say to my head, oh, and I wouldn't want anybody to call me.

I would just say, OK, Jeff, here's what you're going to do. You're going to you're going to put your foot on the floor and we're going to go to the shower, get to the shower, turn the shower on.

And that's how my whole day was. And I know people that suffer from severe depression know exactly what

I'm talking about. We lose all desire to do anything. I didn't want to read. I didn't want to do anything.

And and it got to the point where I was

I wasn't sure what I was going to do. Now, was there any known reason for this not only to begin to surface in your life and control you, but also for it dissipating and disappearing?

Yes, I did nothing but but but, you know, lay there and suffer until it went away.

I didn't. The only thing that helped me was I think it was like a tea that kind of gave me a somewhat of a somewhat of the ability, maybe a small window to breathe.

But other than that, it was really very limited until it really started to I noticed that in the morning, like the mornings are always the worst with with with depression or akathisia or severe anxiety.

The mornings are just hellish. I dreaded the morning. I wanted to stay dark all the time.

So at least I could hide and shelter myself in the darkness. Oh, I felt if I could just crowd myself in a dark place,

I could just suffer there silently. So the mornings would come. Right. Everybody's up and active.

The family's having fun. The kids are playing. Mom's cooking, laughing. And I'm in the bedroom, like feeling like I'm constantly being pushed off a cliff or I'm in flames being burned alive.

And it's just I could just see them out there. But I couldn't make any connection with them. Felt completely cut off.

And then slowly the morning started getting a little bit better, a little bit better. And I was just so thankful to God for just the fact that I could that I wasn't going through the akathisia anymore.

But after that started, that stopped. I just I could not thank God enough. Even with the with the severe anhedonia,

I would take that over akathisia any time of the day. Now, just out of curiosity, reformed folk have different views.

They're not all of one mind on the issue of the demonic realm. I don't know of any reformed

Christian who believes you could become demon possessed if you were born again believer. But do you believe that this was in any way a harassment from the demonic realm?

And if it didn't begin that way, do you believe that the demonic realm could have taken advantage of your mental and physical states to begin harassing you?

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think there's always a portion of the enemy involved. I mean, Ephesians is very clear about that.

Now, was I possessed? Absolutely not. Was I harassed? Absolutely.

I mean, I don't know how to explain it, Chris. All I know is just that I was you know, it was like someone took a cattle prod stuffed in my back, turn it up to the highest voltage possible and literally be electrocuted 24 seven.

I couldn't even think I couldn't even I couldn't even like I couldn't even consider those things. All I could do is just lay there and suffer and agonize, ask

God to help me every day. But after I kind of ended, I look back and I'm thinking, yeah,

I'm sure the enemy had a hand in that as well. I'm sure. I mean, I'm not sure, but I mean,

I hate that it happened, but I'm glad it did happen because it changed me permanently. It gave me compassion for other people.

I was the guy that would chuckle and laugh. I hear people talk about being depressed. And I was the guy that always said, just put a smile on your face, say a prayer and get over it.

Right. Not anymore. It's developed in me a whole new view of life that I didn't have before.

OK, we have a question from Burke in Saginaw, Texas, and Burke asks,

I know that there are different strains of thought within the biblical and Christian counseling world, but those that are most close to home in the reformed community who are involved in biblical counseling seem to most predominantly attribute all of depression to sin as being its root in some form or another.

How do you address this issue? Yeah, I think he's thinking about euthadic counseling,

I think is probably what he's referring to. I think there was a place for that.

I know, if you just kind of let me explain real quick, I won't take too much of your time on this one, but I know that Jay Adams was a strong advocate of the euthadic counseling movement.

It was a hard right hook towards the Freudian concept of philosophy dealing with these areas.

Now, euthadic counseling, I believe, has its place. And I do think at the end of the day, sin is a culprit.

Not that we have sinned. Okay, let me just rephrase that. Now, there are people that struggle with depression because of unrepentant sin, okay?

And there is a place where people do—God allows them to suffer this way to get them to repent, right?

But on the other spectrum, I was at the healthiest

I've ever been. Healthy physically, healthy mentally, healthy spiritually. Everything from what

I've seen was in line. And for most people, Charles Spurgeon is a great example as well.

And I can go on with many more. I've got many examples to where, no,

I don't think a person suffering from clinical depression is that way because they are in sin or because they have sinned.

But I do think because of sin and the nature of sin, that we're dying. Every faculty of our being, even our brains, are dying, and they're prone to malfunction.

As just being a part of the nature of fallen humanity and fallen creation.

Correct. Yes, sir. That's right. Well, thank you, Burke.

By the way, how close is Saginaw, Texas to where you are? Pretty close. Really close. I think he's near Halton City area, so I think he's very close.

Well, Burke, if you don't have a church home of your own, pay a visit to 116

Bible Church in Watauga, or Watauga. And we would love to hear a report from you if you do that.

We are going to our midway break right now, folks. If you have not already sent in a question, send it to ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence, and you may remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Please be patient with us, because the midway break is always a bit longer than the other breaks in the show, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show, because the

FCC requires of them to geographically localize Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida, where the radio station is located.

And they do so with their own public service announcements, while we, on the other hand, simultaneously air our globally heard commercials during this break.

So please, use this time wisely. Write down as much of the contact information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you can, so that you can more frequently and successfully respond to our advertisers.

And always remember, we cannot exist as a program without the financial support that comes through our advertisers.

So try to respond to them as often as you can. And also, send in your questions to Jeff Rose about depression at ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

We'll be right back. Don't go away. Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio has had a long -time partnership with our friends at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

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Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invinio and thanks for listening. If you love

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And let me highlight a couple of books that are available through Solid -Ground -Books .com

that beautifully reflect the conversation that we're having today on depression.

First of all, let me promote a book available from Solid -Ground -Books .com

that was given to me by its author when it first came into print quite a number of years ago.

My friend, Dr. David Murray, authored a book titled

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Murray knew that I was battling a severe bout with depression after the loss of my late wife,

Julie, who went home to the Lord in 2010. And sometime after that, when

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Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Before we return to my guest today,

Jeff Rose, and our conversation on depression in the pastorate, we have some important announcements to make.

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Now, last but not least, if you are not a member of a biblically faithful, Christ -honoring, theologically sound, doctrinally solid church like 116, a

Bible church where my friend and guest is pastoring, well, wherever you live in the world, we have extensive lists spanning the globe of biblically faithful churches and have helped many people in the

Iron Trip and Zion Radio audience find churches, even sometimes within just a couple of minutes from where they live, and that may be you, too, if you are without a biblically sound church home.

Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put I need a church in the subject line.

That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Jeff Rose on depression and the pastorate, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state of residence, and country of residence, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And I usually don't give the full name of the listener when they submit a question, but since this brother operates a very important ministry,

I'll identify his full name. His name is Alex Wright. He is with vesselsforchrist .org,

and Alex says, Chris, give my warm regards to Jeff.

We have a lot of mutual friends who are open -air preachers. My question is, does the ministry you are involved with directly relate to the depression you might cope with?

What are your concerns with doing abortion ministry on a regular basis when it comes to your spiritual health?

That's interesting. Okay. What do we have to say, Jeff? Yeah, that's a great question.

Also, real quick, Chris, we have a fellowship of churches, 116biblechurch .org.

We have more than 116 Bible churches, so just wanted to throw that out there as well.

We do have a fellowship. I think we have five other churches as well that are 116 affiliated, so I wanted to throw out that as well in case someone is looking for a church that may have a 116 church in their area, and if someone is looking to plan a church, that they would reach out to us as well.

Great. Well, if you could answer Alex's questions. Sure. Yeah, so that's a great question because it does.

Certain portions of ministry do have a backlash, at least that I've noticed. I know abortion ministry especially.

If you are not in a place of maturity, if you're not in a place where you're seeking the

Lord regularly, you're not in the Word, you're not in prayer, you're not in fellowship, and you're out there haphazardly in a place where there is shedding of blood, like an abortion, going to a place to where an abortion mill or your little babies are being killed, there is going to be a higher level of spiritual warfare.

That's from my experience. People may disagree with that, but I've noticed that when I end a normal open -air preaching day or street preaching, there is spiritual warfare when

I come home. But after I would get home from an abortion mill, the level of spiritual warfare was very difficult, not only with my own personal dealings with depression, but also

I would see a lot of other things in my relationship, my marriage, my kids, everything else.

It just seemed like the attacks were much more severe. But yes, I would even preach.

I preached in Camden, New Jersey for six years, and I remember coming out of those places and just feeling that heaviness and just completely worn out and having those depressive feelings as well as a result from that style of ministry.

Well, thank you very much, Alex. And please continue spreading the word about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in Orlando, Florida and beyond.

Well, let's really hone in on the specific and unique circumstances that are involved with depression in the pastorate.

Now, you said earlier, if I'm not mistaken, that according to your memory and to the best of your knowledge, you were not a slacker, for lack of a better term, in regards to not only your physical health because very often you will hear even

Christians give as a matter of counsel to somebody who's depressed that one of the key ways that helps people cope in a better way with depression and even have victory over it is to be very active physically.

There's some kind of connection with physical activity and exercise and alleviating depression.

But also in a greater level of importance, your spiritual life, reading the

Bible, not only reading the Bible, but studying it, meditating upon it, your prayer life and so on.

So we don't know of any of those things or the lack of them that has caused your depression.

So as far as coping with it, did you have to go on a sabbatical?

Were you able to share with fellow elders or pastors of other congregations the battle you were struggling with and all those kinds of things?

If you could let us know. Yes, sir. Well, yeah, it was to such an extent where I had to say something.

Our church went from being very robust and really getting full to clearing out because I just couldn't handle it.

They were confused. They didn't have any empathy,

I guess, to what I was trying to communicate with my issues, my problems, and it became very difficult.

But there were those that did understand. And the elders, as a matter of fact,

Jeremy Roten and Sean Blankenship, Sean was the newest elder coming on at the time.

And when I went down to the town, Sean stepped in, and he kind of covered for me.

And both the elders there were completely understanding, gathered all the knowledge they could about the situation, about depression, and ministered to me, allowed me to sit out while they took over until I was well enough to be able to come back.

So I was greatly blessed to have elders that were so kind and so compassionate and really understood, not to the full extent because they didn't struggle with it, but understood what

I was going through and didn't make any judgments, just wanted to be there and wanted to help me through it.

Now, share with us, as much as you feel comfortable sharing, what was happening in your marriage at this time?

Well, that's a great question because my marriage suffered the most.

My wife and I mean, here's the thing. I mean, here I am, you know, the street preacher, the preaching tours,

Jeremiah Cry, you know, and now a church planner, all these things, you know, that I was doing.

And then all of a sudden, in one stroke, it's all gone. And I am just debilitated and cannot do anything.

And she, you know, and my wife, I mean, she didn't know how to handle it.

And if you read the statistics about depression in marriage with one spouse, a lot of it doesn't end well because they just don't know how to deal with it because it can be rather challenging.

And it was, I mean, I would have a little place. I had a two -story house and I basically lived upstairs in the corner of my kids' bedroom.

Kids moved out and my wife hardly ever saw me. And she didn't know how to deal with it.

And as a matter of fact, when she did like come in the room and try to help me, it just exacerbated my symptoms, made them worse.

And for some reason, it was just very difficult. We had a very, very hard time working our way through this.

But we've learned so much. And she did start to understand it and really take initiative and really started to help.

And we both teamed up together in the end. And now she's very helpful and she understands even now when

I have those deep, dark moments where I'm suffering or struggling, she understands it and she's there for me now.

Just out of curiosity, I remember being at a Bible conference that you not only hosted but you preached at it.

Perhaps you can even tell me the year. It was in Pensacola, Florida. It was a Jeremiah Cry conference.

And my friend, Dr. James R. White, was on a long list of speakers, including

Jeff Durbin, who is now his co -pastor. But were you battling this way back then?

Well, I was, but at that time it wasn't anything I understood. How long ago was that, by the way?

I think it was 2012, wasn't it? I can't remember. I'm getting so old that these things just have nothing etched in my memory.

It was a while ago. I mean, it was a while ago. And once again, the words depression and anxiety really were in my vocabulary back then, even though I did struggle with things that I always just wondered if I was just sick.

Like, why do I keep getting sick all the time and feeling sick, feeling so run down, feeling just awful?

And I always just attributed it to just who

I am. And now that I look back, I can see it was the underpinnings of depression and anxiety as well.

Now, I know this is important for every Christian, not just pastors. But because of the added weight of responsibility of an under -shepherd of God's people,

I'm assuming that you would agree that it is absolutely vital for pastors to have confidence, whether it be their own elders, but even pastors of other churches where they have developed close friendships, where you know that you can just open up your heart, be totally honest with others, and have them share the burden of this weight that is weighing heavy on you.

Because I know firsthand the danger of becoming a person in isolation where you are weaning yourself off of fellowship with the brethren and becoming more and more private.

Because in my own life, the depression that led to that isolation was definitely a very strong contributor to me falling off the wagon after 18 years of sobriety, after becoming a

Christian. I mean, sometimes people, I think, misuse the word falling back into sin.

It almost sounds like you're an innocent victim. I did a swan dive back into sin, into habitual scandalous drunkenness.

And I thank God for Hebron Colony Ministries in Boone, North Carolina, where I went and successfully completed a program there and have never even thought about getting drunk ever since graduating from Hebron over a decade ago.

But that was a huge element of me becoming a backslider.

And so I'm assuming even with a pastor, it's more important that there is close communication with brothers where there are no secrets and you can just unburden yourself.

Yes, yes. And that would be Sean Blankenship, my fellow elder. He would be the one.

He's just absolutely fantastic. And he's the one that I open up to. And he gets it, and sometimes

I have to apologize to him. I say, listen, man, I'm sorry that I'm constantly bombarding you with my problem of some of the things that I struggle with.

And I try not to make it central. I try not to be, that's my identity.

I try not to talk about it too much because I don't want a glory in it. I just need some help.

And I want him to know, listen, I'm struggling. I'm having some issues here. I need some time of recovery.

So I just kind of need some, because like you said, Chris, when you're going through those episodes, you just want to disappear.

You want to just go completely silent, right?

Because you just don't feel like doing anything. And with depression, there's a sense you don't want to be around anybody because everything seems like a chore.

I mean, everything just to talk to somebody or have to do anything is just because the way your body's functioning, it's extremely difficult.

But you have to keep persevering. You have to keep going, though. And I think that's the power of the cross, the power of Christ, the power of the

Spirit of God, that he enables you, even through the garbage you're feeling, that you still persevere and you still continue the work that Christ has called you to do.

Amen. We have Abel in Farragut, Tennessee, who asks,

Have you read and do you recommend Dr. Martin Lloyd -Jones' book

Spiritual Depression? Yeah, absolutely. It's a fantastic book.

I mean, anybody struggling with depression, if you can.

I mean, I know there was times when I was at my worst that I couldn't even consider picking up a book.

But as I started getting better, you always want to read about the beast that got you, you know?

What in the world got me? And you become a studier, right?

Yes, Martin Lloyd -Jones is definitely, his book on spiritual depression is definitely a book that you definitely should read.

I thoroughly enjoyed it. And I do have a list at the end, Chris, if you give me the opportunity. I do have a reading list at the end, when we're finished or whatever, that I would be happy to let people, or if they want to reach out to me,

I can send it to them. Well, why don't you do that now, just so we make sure we don't run out of time, because that's very important.

Okay. Well, some of the, obviously, Spurgeon's Sorrows is by far my favorite, right?

With Zach Esler, the book that you were referring to, it's just a small book, but it really deals so, in so much different areas of Spurgeon's life.

It's just excellent. There's Medicine and Healthcare in the Early Church by Gary Ferngren.

It shows how the early church, and how healthcare was, and how it operated biblically, and the things that they did.

It's just a fantastic book. And then there's a, if you like devotions,

I think everyone should have a devotional, but the one that really deals specifically with depression is it's called

Daily Readings for Troubled Minds by James Clark. And that's come out of the

UK. A reformed pastor wrote this. He has many of these different books, but this one,

I just, I can't encourage our listeners enough to get a hold of this book. And if you can't get a hold of it, let me know.

I can find you a copy. Then there's Coping with Depression in the Ministry by Archibald Hart.

Very good. Spiritual Comfort by John Calhoun. Darkness Invisible by William Styron.

If you really want to read about someone that really went through a very severe depression, that's a great book.

Spurgeon's writings called Fainting Fits. He wrote another sermon called

Our Leader Through Darkness. And then you got the Puritan, Timothy Rogers, who literally had depression so bad that it took him out for two years.

And when he came back, he said it was like coming back from the dead. He wrote a book called

Trouble of Mind and the Disease of Melancholy. And then you have Looking Up from the

Stubborn Darkness by Edward Welch. And then The Suicidal Mind by Edwin Schneidman, which are really good books.

I have many more, but I didn't write them all down. But that's just a few that if our listeners are listening, they may want to grab ahold of.

They were excellent books on the topic of depression and anxiety and in the ministry.

Excellent books. Well, if you would like to also, and we'll try to remember to repeat it later, give our listeners your email address now so that they can get that whole list from you.

Yes, sir. Just like it sounds, it's thunderitoutatgmail .com.

Thunderitoutatgmail .com. And some people may be unaware that Charles Haddon Spurgeon, the great prince of preachers from the 19th century in England, he battled with depression.

Now, I can't remember if he ever experienced any serious level of depression before the fire scare at the

Metropolitan Tabernacle, but I know that he experienced it afterwards when somebody pranked the

Metropolitan Tabernacle during a worship service and yelled fire into the building, and it started a stampede of people, and there were people who were killed as a result of that.

And Spurgeon, I don't think, ever totally got over that depression. From your memory, do you know if that's what started his depression or if that was just something that added to it?

It seems to be that was the catalyst that started it. I mean, seven people died and 28 were seriously injured.

And it's said after a period of absence, almost 28 years later, he's going into the pulpit and he says this to his congregation.

He says, I almost regret this morning that I ventured to occupy this pulpit because I feel utterly unable to preach to you for your profit.

I'm coming back to the same spot again, and more especially, standing here to address you. I feel somewhat of those painful emotions which wellnigh prostrated me before.

Wow. Well, during this time, were you at any point during this period able to function in a reasonable level of adequacy as a pastor and as a preacher without people necessarily detecting what you were going through?

I mean, were you able to keep your mind focused on the texts that you were opening up from the pulpit and all that kind of thing?

Yes, sir. I remember my first time back to the pulpit. I went up there and I stood there.

And I mean, I'm really just kind of bearing all before you today because it's to the point where it's like I feel better just being who

I am, what I went through without the hiding because at this point, it's like people know already.

So I went up there behind the pulpit and literally I almost had a panic attack.

And I'm like, I'm not going to be able to do this. And I started

I started anyway. I just started with a trembling voice, almost in whispers and jittery and my voice tremoring.

And I started. And then as I picked up momentum, my voice came back, my strength came back, and I felt the power of God come back.

And I was able to preach the word and finish the sermon.

And after that, every Sunday, I got a little stronger and a little stronger until I was back to where I at least could

I could minister the word and be able to be consistent.

By the way, our listener in Findlay, Ohio, Cindy asks, who was daily readings that you mentioned earlier written by?

I missed it. Let me go ahead and shuffle on down here because my mind's all over.

And while you're doing that, I'll announce our email address again. If you have a question, folks, you'd like to get in line and ask your own.

Chris Arnzen at Gmail dot com. Chris Arnzen at Gmail dot com. Give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence.

You find it. Yes, sir. Yes. It's James Clark. Just type it in a

Google search. You're probably going to find copies that are in another country. But if you want to reach out to me,

I'll be happy to order the books for you. I know someone who has has copies, but they are in the

UK. And I can have them shipped here and I'm happy to to get you the book. And there was no problem, even no cost or whatever.

Wow. All right. Thank you, Cindy. In Findlay, Ohio, we have an anonymous listener who asks, forgive me if you've already addressed this, but did you ever contemplate suicide?

That's a great question, and I was kind of hoping that nobody would ask me that. You know, you know,

I like to say that before I answer it to the fullest there, you know. There is a place in the mind that your your mind goes and it's not it's.

Are you there, Jeff? Hello, Jeff. You've cut out.

Well, we are going to go to our final break and see if we can resolve this technical issue with Jeff Rose.

I have no idea what's occurring right now, but we'll be right back after these messages.

Hopefully Jeff will be restored to the program when we return.

Don't go away. We'll be right back. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland, who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland, going back to 2005.

One of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron radio,

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Now shipping worldwide. Welcome back. And before I return to my discussion with Jeff Rose, I want to remind our listeners that this program is paid for in part by the law firm of Buttafuoco and Associates.

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We're now back with Jeff Rose. I'm glad that you have been restored to the program, Jeff. Yeah, me too.

Thank you. And thankfully, Cindy in Findlay, Ohio, one of our listeners, was listening very carefully, and she says when

Jeff Rose comes back, the last thing that he had previously said was, there is a place where the mind goes.

And that was during our conversation that was evoked from a listener question on did you ever contemplate suicide.

Yeah, so the mind does have its own set of guidelines once it's not normal.

Depression can take you to places where I don't think it's ever you're desiring.

No one wants, from what I gather, no one wants to die.

They just want the pain to stop. The ideologies were there.

Ideations were there. But the reality wasn't that I just, something that I knew

I wouldn't do, even though there were times in my mind where there was repetitive voices in my head.

Now, I'm not talking about being schizophrenic, but there was just this ongoing, felt like a voice saying, you know, just end it.

And, of course, I just held to the word of God and was able to combat that and be able to at least continue on and persevere until I got healthier.

Now, perhaps I wasn't listening carefully, but was this a real audible voice or just gave you the sensation that there was a nagging voice telling you to kill yourself?

No, it definitely wasn't an audible voice. I'm glad you asked me that. No, no audible, no audible voices.

Just my own voice in my head and just saying this.

I just want this misery to stop. I can't function. I can't do anything.

I can't be a man. I can't take care of my family. I can't take care of the church.

I can't do anything. And I just felt like totally useless and shameful and just miserable and felt there really wasn't much of a need for my existence.

But as I held to the word of God, I was able to crawl out of that hole and be able to continue on without self -destruction.

And by the way, I would like to recommend to our folks listening two interviews that I have conducted in the past on suicide, both with the exact same title,

Suicide, A Christian Response. One was originally conducted in 2008, a day before my birthday, actually,

February 13th. My very dear longtime friend, William Shishko, who was pastor for many years at the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square, New York, and is now pastoring the Haven Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Comack, Long Island, New York.

He provided us with a fascinating interview on Suicide, A Christian Response that he urged me to conduct with him after a colleague of his in the pastoral ministry in the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination in New Jersey, taking his own life tragically.

The other interview that I conducted about eight years ago, 2016, was with Dr.

Ron Gleason. He is pastor of Grace Presbyterian Church in Lorbelinda, California, a

PCA congregation, and he discussed Suicide, A Christian Response as well.

So go to irontreppanzionradio .com and go to the search engine, type in suicide, and both of those interviews will come up.

Now I'd really like you to focus on some words of counsel, especially for men in the pastoral ministry, or perhaps even in leadership in a parachurch organization, on the specific battle with depression in those high levels of authority with so much pressure and such great of a burden on your shoulders.

So you mean as far as just some things that could help other ministers to be—

Yes, sir. Any counsel that you can think of? Yeah, here's some guidelines to manage your depression.

First and foremost, the Word of God, spending time in the Word of God, meditation and prayer, medication if need.

I'm not anti -medicine. I think we see God's common grace. Big Pharma is a mess.

It is bewitching. I believe that Christ is the ruler and reigner over all things, and he supplies medicine as well as a common grace to help us not to alter the mind, but I think to regulate the mind and help with the mind or the brain or whatever you want to use.

I would definitely encourage them to get some herbs and some vitamins, ones that I would say

B6 is a strong one that helps the nerves. Magnesium as well.

L -theanine, ashen flower, holy basil. Therapy if needed.

I prefer my elders. I prefer other believers who struggle as well.

Find a group of people that share your struggles. Meet with them. Talk with them.

Utilize them for comfort, and they can help you during your time of need.

I would say also exercise helps with the endorphins and helps the anxiety, helps with depression.

I know it's miserable. There are times I literally hated going to the gym, literally hated it, but I would go and force myself until I started getting better, and it really helped.

Watching what you eat. Learning how to use low carb and really get in your body, get the sugar out of your diet, and really focus on getting healthy with weight training and everything else.

These are big things. Sleep hygiene. Get to bed. Make sure your sleep is where it needs to be because the side effects that happen with untreated depression can result in heart disease and heart attacks and the breaking down of your body.

If you're not sleeping at night, you're not repairing, and it only makes your depression worse. So you need to get a good night's sleep.

Read books, like I tell you. Get in these books. Read about these other people, and you won't feel so lonely and isolated.

There is a whole world out there of people just like you. You're not alone. And get around people that are suffering as well, and read about people who suffered, and you won't feel alone and ostracized and shamed.

You'll realize that depression is not your fault and that there is help and that you just look to Christ and persevere until it's time to go home.

And the last thing is serve others, that when you're in pain and you're hurting, look for others that are hurting the same way and reach out and comfort them, and in that you'll find comfort in yourself.

Amen. Well, can you give us an update in the current day?

How often does the depression reappear, if at all? And just explain your situation right now.

Yeah, I'll be quick, but, yes, I do still struggle. I have ups and downs. I have moments.

I have days where I just, it comes upon me, and once again, I have to just plow through it, and it's sanctifying for sure.

But, yes, I still struggle with depression, and it's probably going to be something I have to manage for the rest of my life, along with struggles with sleep and anxiety.

But they're all manageable. I'm doing much better. I'm able to function again. I'm back out on the streets.

The church is flourishing, and I'll be going to Scotland here shortly as well. So by God's grace,

I'll be able to continue the work until I die. So that's where I'm at now. So are you doing another open -air evangelism event there in Scotland?

Yes, sir. July 10th through the 21st, we're doing a preaching tour in Scotland. Very cool.

And where in Scotland are you going? It'll be in Glasgow, Edinburgh, just all the neighboring cities, probably

St. Andrews, Paisley. All those areas we'll probably be hitting, and it should be a lot of fun.

If anyone's interested, please contact me. I'd love to have you come and join us there. It's a great time.

It really is. We've done many of these, and they are transformational. Well, Proverbs 11 -14 tells us,

Where there is no counsel, the people fall. But in the multitude of counselors, there is safety.

I'm assuming that this is also very true of pastors and that you should not necessarily listen to someone who is basically being flippant or unconcerned when you meet with them, perhaps privately, to pour your heart open about this issue.

And the very fact that the God -breathed words of Scripture tell us that in a multitude of counselors, there is safety.

So this is something that you should continue to seek help from a variety of voices, of course, knowing or making sure that they are sound voices with sound backgrounds.

Yes, sir. There's many interventions out there for help, and we should utilize those for the glory of God.

Amen. Well, let me once again read the websites or provide the websites for our listeners where our audience can get in touch with you.

First of all, the website for the 113,

I'm sorry, 116 Bible Church. Yes, sir.

And that is 116biblechurch .com.

Yes, sir. And those are the numbers, 116biblechurch .com. Yes, correct.

And also Jeremiah Cry Ministries. Yes. They can be found at jeremiahcry .com,

jeremiahcry .com. And I really thank you so much, Pastor Jeff, for reaching out to me and rekindling this friendship and relationship and wanting to share such a very personal and private area of your life with strangers, no doubt thousands of them on our program.

And I look forward to you returning to the program. I look forward to seeing you face -to -face to share fellowship with you once again.

It's been far too long. And I really appreciate you, brother. And you will be definitely a matter of prayer in my own life, and I hope that you pray for me as well.

Yes, sir. Thank you so much, Chris, for having me on the show. I greatly appreciate it. And I think of you as a very dear friend, and I love your show.

And I appreciate you allowing me to be on it. Very grateful. And I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write in questions.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.