September 30, 2003

Reformed Baptist Church 3 4 6 0 2 or toll -free across the

United States It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 name is

James white We're glad to be here this morning for a while. We had announced we weren't going to be here since well, everything died on us this morning, but Resurrection has taken place

We're you know when you I saw a special when I was in Austin on PBS on the the

Wright brothers when they they first flew and that first aircraft and The amazing things they went through to make that thing work and the special engine that they themselves built

I mean these guys were really they were really geniuses. They really were and but you you look at that first rickety thing and you compare it with what we fly around in these days and It was amazing the stuff they overcame but still it was not exactly something that You know,

I would want to attempt to get more than 10 feet off the ground in myself Because I'd be afraid it would fall apart and I would die.

So that's a little bit like how we do this webcast It's chewing gum and bailing wire and and some of the most unique imaginative creative creative is a term creative Technology that Exists My well in fact we were discussing this maybe

I don't know I don't remember stuff like this But this this may be the fifth anniversary of the beginning of the dividing line started as a well

It didn't we did the dividing line Years and years ago. I mean we started on what do we start out with a cake was it?

I forget was when we started on it wasn't no, I don't know. Anyways, we're on KHP for a while I know that much and I don't have to be starting

KHP or KXTG Neither which of which neither one of which the KXTG neither one of them even exist anymore as far as I know

I think they're country music stations or financial stations or something. Who knows? Anyway, we started on those

We did this back in the 80s I mean we've got tapes of my doing the King James only stuff in the 1980s and that was who who could have foreseen what that would turn out to be and Then we did you know

We went like I said went from one station another station and we just didn't do anything for a long time And then I think about 98 we went back to KPXQ with a half -hour radio program on Saturdays, and that's how we

Did it for a while? And then we discovered that in essence 98 % of our phone calls were coming from the internet

We they had an internet feed there and people are listening on the internet and nobody in Phoenix was

Listening to the program. Well, I'll take that back There were a few but I didn't call in and it was very expensive and we did not have that money at all

And so we started the webcast and lo and behold here. We are a number of years later, and we're still doing it by Chewing gum and bailing wire, but hey, that's

I do have a cost switch now That's that's that's about the biggest advance we've made actually we're using all

Windows XP now In fact, my laptop is now the least advanced computer on the entire system It's only a win -2k unit

But we're we've got we've got XP running everywhere now and I must admit despite the fact that there are many people who believe

Bill Gates is the Antichrist XP does work very very nicely. So anyhow, it's

It's it's working and we're we're here and I've got lots to talk about but you might too at eight seven seven seven five three 3341 this

Friday only a matter of hours from now we will be in Salt Lake City and Well, I was

Just looking at Jerry Medetic's travel schedule. Good night. I feel like a complete slug

No, I don't actually I'm I'm far too busy. But You know

That how in the world This guy even remembers the names of his ten kids nine kids and one about to be born or something

I don't know because I looked at his travel schedule and He I don't know how anybody does he he lives his life in aircraft and taxis and buses and trains and whatever

I don't know how he gets around because Unbelievable just every single night someplace else and He's up in New England right now he was in Canada yesterday and now he's now he's in I think in Maine tonight and he'll be coming to the debate in Salt Lake from New Hampshire as I recall and anyway there

I downloaded a something somebody put together for here Jerry Medetic's on his final 2003 sweep of New England and Some Fascinating talks here, but what really struck me is two things.

First of all eight days after we debate we debates for on Friday, October 3rd and eight days later 6 p .m.

In Let's see the holiday in Tewksbury Andover. That's in,

Massachusetts We have a debate Listen to the title debate does the

Bible teach the perpetual virginity of Mary? Hmm sounds familiar doesn't it that of course is the exact same topic that we are debating on only a week in a day earlier

Jerry Medetic's versus Kyron Murphy former Catholic now evangelist for Kingsborough Church of Christ and I don't know about you know

I Is there anybody up in Massachusetts if you're if you're listening in the Massachusetts area And your plan and go on this thing.

I'd wish you'd drop us a line to the through the website or something I would like to get the tapes of of that debate

I Would really like to get the tapes that debate because I would like to see if What is presented to mr.

Medetic's in our debate has any impact at all on? What he says against Kieran Murphy of the

Church of Christ now I May even ask mr.. Medetic's some questions about that I've got some interesting questions

I it's just so sad that there's not enough time to really ask all the questions you want to ask But I also found very interesting on this this handout that I'm holding my hand

I also found very very interesting the Description of mr..

Medetic's This is this is you know if I wrote Bios like Jerry Matic's writes bios.

I could really put together It says

Next to a picture that I think was used for our 1990 debate Can you imagine if we use a picture of me from 1990 oh goodness

No one would even know I was there. I could walk right in nobody even recognized you that they're looking for Internationally known

Catholic apologist and scripture scholar has lectured Oxford University Cambridge Harvard Yale Princeton Boston College University of Notre Dame City University Furman University of Kent in Canterbury etc former professor of theology and sacred scripture

Our Lady of Guadalupe seminary Christendom College Aquinas University of San Diego etc Phi Beta Kappa MD of Gordon Conwell theological seminary was a

BD for PhD Westminster theological seminary first ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church in America ever to convert to Catholicism Wow, man,

I'm dead Now When you put all that together, and that sounds really really really cool, but then you go back over it

Okay ABD for PhD means all but dissertation. He didn't finish and in fact

I sat in the Catholic answers offices in January of 1991 that one it was yeah,

I think it was I think it was January of 1991 and listen to Jerry talking about how he had to the end of that week to get his his dissertation in and That was 12 years ago that then again.

I I've got a number of tapes for Jerry's talking about his soon -coming book That was 1992 Then I noticed

Has lectured at Okay, Oxford Cambridge Harvard Yale Princeton Boston College Yeah, he did it was in a debate with me

University of Notre Dame City versus Furman remember we talked about Furman no one's opposing him at these things and and it's and you know so I have lectured at that means he went on the campus and And talked in one of the rooms, you know,

I could start listing stuff like that too. It really doesn't mean a whole lot Especially when you're not interacting with anybody and doing anything in a meaningful format.

But anyways Then he mentions the various places. I guess he's been paid to do something at some point at some time along there

Anyways, it was a fascinating description and I hope it's the one that is read Friday night because especially when it says international

Catholic apologists and scripture scholar for professor of theology and sacred scripture great well let's hold you to a a meaningful definition of those terms in the sense of Handle the scriptures rightly be fair with them.

Do not play around and joke with them That's just Friday night at the University of Utah Orson Spencer Hall, I think is what it's called it looks like I think we're gonna be in the very same room that we were at for the syngenous debate and the other

LDS debate we did the Potter debate six months ago and It's not too difficult to find if you can find the

Student Union. It's the building to the South of the the

Student Union. That's my recollection and I'm standing by it and that'll be seven o 'clock.

So Y 'all want to at least know some folks come in from California to see it.

So that's that's that's pretty pretty interesting I was Especially when

I thought we weren't going to have a program today. I took some time time that unfortunately is so short these days and David King was kind enough to highly recommend to me and and I don't know how he got this because it took it took me a

Month and a half to get this because maybe we just have a different edition of it I don't know but Baker academic has put out in its historical theology section.

They're putting out Muller's post -reformation reform dogmatics volume 2 highly recommend it excellent work of course it

You know, he is PJ Zonderman professor of historical theology at Calvin Theological Seminary, etc, etc, and The only thing that bothers me about I mean it is really good.

It's a great resource awesome number of footnotes and clearly written I Just this is just obvious why

I'm always going to be, you know, an old fatball guy someplace But and never hit the big time.

I I couldn't write about The sufficiency of Scripture the specifically Holy Scripture the cognitive foundation of theology is the is the title first of all

I'm not smart enough to come up with a title like that. Anyways, but I I'm this is this is what the

Reformers taught and believed about Scripture and I start reading some of this stuff and I get so Excited about it, and it's so This is passionate stuff.

I could not write about this in a non -passionate way I could not be you know, well then this person said this and that person said

I can't do that kind of thing It you know, it just it's just too exciting to to read this stuff and especially as I was reading through here,

I was struck by the the confluence of Forces against the

Reformed Perspective on Scripture in other words who were who were the

Reformers not and I'm not when we're talking about Reformed here this is talking about the development of Reformed orthodoxy over the next two centuries or so and And so you're going into the 1700s or so and The the people that they were debating remember your your your conflicts your fights

What's your what you are having to struggle against? I can it's a my you're having to contend for the faith against Has a tremendous impact

Upon your the expression of your theology And we we really need to keep that in mind that that is that is very very true.

I've mentioned many times About the fact that you look at Augustine Augustine is a tremendous example of a brilliant mind

Insightful handling of the scriptures in many ways and Yet the contradictions in his own theology arose because of the different battlefronts

Upon which he had to do battle upon which he was called to do battle We've we've noted the conflict with the

Donatus and that resulted in really a Roman Catholic eventually not full -blown in his day, but he's laying the foundations of a

Roman Catholic view of the church and sacraments, but then on the other side we have his battle with Pelagius and the

Pelagians and I've mentioned many times of BB Warfield insightful statement

That the Reformation inwardly considered was just the victory of Augustine's doctrine of grace over Augustine's doctrine of the church

Now, you know when when you say someone's contradictory in their theology They can either be contradictory

Self -consciously and there are people that are that way today. They think self -contradiction is actually a good thing or Unconsciously and I think that would be the case with with Augustine and the more you're involved in that that battle than what's going to happen well

The same thing is true in regards to The development of reformed theology as well.

There were battles going on and of course most people think well, yeah There's battles with Roman and it's quite true when you look at the writings concerning the concerning sola scriptura concerning The perspicuity of Scripture the inspiration of Scripture the clarity of Scripture that kind of thing there is no question that people like Bellarmine Cardinal Bellarmine who really

Formed the the central core of Rome's counter -reformation thrust at the reformed faith and you read

Bellarmine's works and and he is he is an expert and at one hand affirming the

Authority and inspiration of Scripture and then taking everything away and in essence arguing the scriptures are simply too confusing

To function as the regula fide. We need to have a living voice as If having the living voice the

Pope today, for example has actually resulted in some sort of unanimity of opinion But you know, we've all heard that before and So that That obviously was a very important thing and and just as Marchione in the early church was written against by generations of Christians So too many of the leading reformed writers

Responded to Bellarmine and to those like him who? Propounded this view of Scripture that it is it is not perspicuous.

It is unclear. It needs to be Maintained solely within the context and confines of what

Rome defines as tradition and and the things like that but that wasn't the only battlefront and What I found fascinating in in reading through this morning and in Muller's work was the the discussion of the other battlefronts the remonstrants the

Arminians the Sassanians and The confluence of their perspectives in regards to Scripture that is

All of these groups including historically Arminians had a lower view of The Scriptures in the sense of and obviously they would disagree with my identification of that But obviously

I believe that if you have a view of Scripture That subjects it to some external authority that in essence says that it is is not clear and perspicuous

It does not provide a singular Revelation of God's truth that it is more inspired in some places and In fact, of course the

Sassanians went so far as to very clearly deny the the fully divine nature of Scripture and inerrancy and things like that Infallibility would be the popular term of the day

But all these groups together Had a a lesser view of Scripture and and the reformers had to defend the the reformed

I think would be the other term I should use the reformed had to defend their belief in Sola Scriptura against All of these other attacks all of these other perspectives and isn't it interesting

That another thing that all these groups together Held in common was their synergism

Now I can just hear people throwing their hands up there. Oh Genetic fallacy a guilt by association.

No think about it for just a moment before you turn your mind off all of these groups that The reforms had to had to battle for the highest view of Scripture all of those groups likewise held to a perspective a viewpoint on the

The will of man and the grace of God that that was likewise lesser in a in many ways

Then than the reformed themselves and so Might there be a reason for that might might there be a logical rational connection?

Well, we know that all of those groups have a lesser view of the atonement they all deny substitutionary atonement in its fullest sense and Hence that as soon as you begin to to emphasize the supremacy of man over God's sovereign power and Providence it is not surprising then that these other things begin to collapse as well and certainly when you see the result of historic

Arminianism in Europe and and Historic certainly sophinianism the rise of of Rationalism and skeptical criticism and all the rest of these things

Certainly those things eventually made their way into the state churches who

Historically were reformed in Europe and certainly those churches that would be called reformed in general in Europe today sadly are are a mockery of What we're talking about here historically

But they came in primarily from the outside and and to get in that required a collapse in The apologetic a collapse in a belief in the highest view of Scripture and that's what you have taking place.

So it's fascinating to to read these these exchanges and to See the summaries of the arguments being used and not only are made of the many the arguments the same today

You can go into almost any Catholic chat room today and you're going to hear not nearly as polished

Probably in a very shallow way, but you're going to hear in essence the same incipient skepticism that Bellarmine Published hundreds of years ago.

It's going to be the same kind of thing How often have we all who have have talked with the

Roman Catholics online? We've corresponded we've talked after debates you you hear the same thing over and over and over again and You know

I was just reading where where those many generations before us were pointing out the internal inconsistency of the

Roman Catholic position long long ago The fact that the arguments they use against Scripture Would make their own position in Coherent and inconsistent, but it's like well, but we don't want to discuss that.

We just want to go after Scripture and That that's that's a fascinating thing but this confluence of Theologies coming from different perspectives

I Mentioned in I think I mentioned in the last dividing line. I'm I'm fairly certain

That was the one but after all these years they sort of flow together into one big long blur That's somewhat similar interestingly enough at least it throws some light on what's happening in the confluence of And sadly, they still call themselves reformed

And so that term like so many terms in history is starting to become almost meaningless Because it it's it covers such a wide variety of opinions today

But the the coming together of different viewpoints including the complete reorientation and rethinking of the foundations of their reformed faith and what it means

I I refer for example to the the rise of new perspectivism the speed with which an abandonment of the historical doctrine of justification

Its centrality the gospel the concept of the imputed righteousness of Christ as our sole positive standing before God All of those things are being thrown off right and left by many who continue to call themselves reformed and Then on the other side you have the conservative writings of people like Douglas Wilson and the preaching of people like Steve Schlissel and the presentation there of Well justification is simply being as Steve Schlissel says that that just means

Jews and Gentiles are together in the Covenant and that's of course what N .T. Wright is saying he's coming from a completely different perspective and You See this conference coming up I think in March of next year where Norman Shepard's gonna be speaking and Norman Shepard is representative of this

Auburn Avenue perspective this objective Covenant concept Where you know triunal baptism places you in the

Covenant makes you a Christian gonna deal with Roman Catholics You don't you don't deal

With the issue of of the solace you grab them by their baptism and call them the faithfulness of the

Covenant that kind of thing and also speaking there is John Armstrong and John Armstrong has been one of the main conservative non -presbyterian people through whom which the concept of new perspectivism as enunciated primarily by N .T.

Wright have been promulgated amongst Conservative churches and even amongst those who would have a

Conservative Apologetic Perspective I mean there was you know ten years ago

John Armstrong was a strong voice against Roman Catholicism identified as a false

Church things like that and Yet there's been a change

The Reformation and Revival Journal has has promoted Armstrong. I'm sorry

N .T. Wright's materials Dr. Armstrong has followed in N .T. Wright's footsteps

Many relationships that had once existed have have ceased to exist and in the

September October 2003 viewpoint the newsletter of Dr.

Armstrong's ministry out of Carroll Stream, Illinois Volume 7 number 4 how I changed my mind theological method by John Armstrong and it he

He in essence attacks foundationalism The idea that well the the pop out in the on the front page it says strong foundationalists and This includes many of the most popular reform dogmaticians and teachers on the conservative side seek a steady unshakable and certain knowledge

Well, I never really understood why anyone would seek an unsteady shakable and uncertain knowledge

So yeah, that seems to be the case, but the whole article Does reflect the fact that in a large portion of what was historically called?

Reform theology and sadly Westminster seminary is full of it these days There is this abandonment and this is what

I've talked about many times before this what I've called this discontentment with truth It really

I think is expressed Rather well in in a quotation here from John Jefferson Davis Referring to doing it for some reason

Wayne Grudem systematic theology is the primary whipping boy here Obviously Grudem did his systematic theology in the standard way of doing systematic theologies.

I mean this could be said of Raymond or Burkoff or whoever

They identify this as the concordance model going through the Bible and creating a concordance of relevant passages to a particular topic and creating a theology out of that and John Jefferson Davis says the concordance model does not take adequate account of the social context of the theological task and the historicity of all theological reflection

The method tend to promote a repetition of traditional formulations of biblical doctrine rather than appropriate recontextualization of the doctrines in response to changing cultural and historical conditions

Now some of you especially some of you in the channel Are going a wait a minute

I've heard that before and in the not too distant past and You're exactly right you have that is very much the same kind of perspective that We have read of late from people who are involved with new st.

Andrews and Doug Wilson and the assertion that in essence exegesis is is is held hostage to Cultural contextualization that you really you know delving into the text before you delve into 16 zillion other

Cultural issues is not going to get you anywhere so on and so forth and Yet that's coming from two different perspectives.

This is coming from more of the liberal perspective and the Auburn Avenue stuff is coming from more conservative and yet there is this confluence that's taking place

It's a fascinating thing to observe and it's not the first time it's happened And maybe it's always happening, and I'm just now getting old enough to see it

That's possibility to eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. We have a break now

I'm so thankful. It's a little while, but we have a break You have a break now eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

Give us a call right back No The history of the

Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith Once the core of the Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine in his book the

God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme

Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute

James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith

Dr.. J. Adams says I lost sleep over this book I simply couldn't put it down James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates

This is no book for casual reading. There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words

The God who justifies by dr. James White get your copy today at a omen org

Answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the Word of God James White in his book the

King James only controversy examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true

Christian faith in a readable and responsible style author James White traces the development of Bible translations old and new and Investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611

You can order your copy of James White's book the King James only controversy by going to our website at www .a

omen .org What is dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen, but free a new cult secularism false prophecy scenarios

No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called

Calvinism he insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant in his book the potter's freedom

James White replies to dr. Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply It is a defense of the very principles upon which the

Protestant Reformation was founded Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate

James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme Calvinism Defines what the reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture the potter's freedom a defense of the

Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen But free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen org

Oh Welcome back to dividing line. My name is James White. We're waiting on your phone calls at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

Looking into well somewhat history and then applying it to the modern situation.

It is Obviously somewhat Well, it's not somewhat it is is very sad to me to To read some of the things

I read in this in this article how I changed my mind theological method It's it is certainly sad

I think to to see The results of this I do not see how a person

Adopting this perspective can engage in apologetics and that's one of the reasons I guess why?

So many individuals do not engage in apologetics and find the encounters that we seek to have

That are based upon a belief that God has revealed his truth It is no has revealed his truth to us clear clearly.

It is knowable. It is not Constrained by the confines of culture

There are foundational truths that have been revealed with in within Scripture.

They are not negotiable The truth of the gospel is the property of God's people and will always be so he will always make sure

That we have his truth and can know his truth. You have to have that foundation. You have to have a highest view of Scripture has the highest

Plateau upon which to stand even begin to to bother To engage in in theological debate on these issues

And if you don't have those things you're not going to bother you're not going to stand those who do and so I guess it does explain why to engage in this type of activity is rather unusual these days and Why those of us who do it are looked upon and I've seen it

I've seen it. I will go. I'll go someplace. Maybe I'll be speaking in the church and doing a debate or something like that and go to the go to the church and a scholar is a member of that church and And I'm introduced this individual and and the mention of the debate takes place and there's this there's this look in the eye

There's this You know, you must you must be you must not really understand just how uncertain everything is

Because I could never do what you're going to be doing. I mean, I might agree with you that it would be

Better to hold a particular perspective but to say that one perspective is is is is actually right

You see what many today and I think what we're really seeing Honestly, this is this is my conclusion.

Anyway, just take it for what it's worth, but I think what we're seeing in This this willingness to in essence collapse in the battle for Justification collapse in the battle for the highest view of Scripture on the part of many in Scholarship is the result of generations of doing

Christian scholarship in the way of the world Rather than doing Christian scholarship under the Lordship of Christ the way of the world

Means that we spend our time being concerned about being accepted by our quote -unquote colleagues in the world

Participating in cross -disciplinary dialogues rather than evangelism

The the the doing of Christian scholarship outside the realm of service to the church and I think what we're seeing is is this this collapse of firm conviction

Even Amongst those who only a few decades ago would have been considered to be at the forefront of such things

Is the result of the long -term? exposure to the the acid of human wisdom rather than the constant recognition that God's wisdom is foolishness to the world

We've wanted to change that We've wanted to to look like we are wise to the rest of the world.

We don't want to look foolish we don't want to start with the the cross and a crucified

Savior And this is what I have seen within much of Christian scholarship.

I'm sorry, but that's been my experience and I hear it all the time

I See it in the eyes of those who you know, I made the decision that in my studies

I was going to put my ministry to the church first. Well, you're not a true scholar

Are you well, okay, you may be able to teach real well in a sense that your students really they learn a lot from you Oh, that's not part of scholarship though.

No, no, no, no. No, no. No, we have to have other standards Where do we get these standards?

We don't get it from the New Testament and the result of all this is a is a

Collapse inwardly It is it is it is due to the to a lack of foundation within the system

It's not so much that the arguments from the outside are overwhelming the truth or something it's that the truth has been left hanging in midair and so I I read some of these these statements and I You know toward the end of this article by by John Armstrong So what's the big deal about changing our minds about theological method?

Well in the first place a different approach to theology could cause a great deal more humility in the pulpit and the pew

Reform theology is a beautiful and biblical approach to truth But it does not provide a perfect and for failsafe system that is beyond further question

Further other types of theology plainly have a serious contribution to be made to the church.

Could I just stop a moment? other kinds of theology What does that mean?

What does theology mean? I thought it meant the knowledge of God So what is other kinds of theology the this this this relativism?

It's it's soaking every word here other types of theology plainly have a serious contribution made to the church

Would that include? Roman Catholic theology Would that include the insights of John Spong?

Oh, that's a that's a radical. Okay. How about Hans Kuhn? Ronner Ratzinger the new gay bishop of New Hampshire Where do we draw the line upon what basis?

I don't know that anyone would be able to tell I remain reformed in my world and life view.

I Remain reformed in my central emphasis upon God his glory his grace and his sovereignty, but my reformed theology is more chastened these days.

I hope that my theology will remain open to the whole church and continually submit itself the insights of all the great

Christian traditions and what the Bible affirms and denies Now that sounds wonderful But what does it mean

What does it mean how can the writer of these words Debate the great issues the

Reformation a longer answer can't can't well, my personal opinion is

That it would be better to hold To a reformed perspective, but but I'm not saying that that's actually more representation of Biblical revelation than another view

I would never say that I I'm much more chastened now I thought what was chastening about reformed theology

Was it forced you to see yourself as the absolute dependent creature you are who depends upon grace fully?

Not that it was somehow just one of many acceptable views of the truth That's not a chastened reformed theology.

That is a shot dead in the head reformed theology That's not being humble.

That's humiliating the truth Let's get our terms Straight here.

We can you know heresy is always Expressed in the warmest and most affirming of language the issue here is not replacing theology with something else

This is the error of the pragmatic evangelical baby boomers The real issue is how do we do theology so that we glorify the

Living Word who reveals God in human history? How do we listen to him?

My change in methodology allows me to enter a dialogue with new eyes and a new willingness to listen and learn from others

It is an evangelical and ecumenical theology in the best sense This has made a profound difference in my personal life

Whereas I once saw truth in a closed system created by a very small group of theologians whom I believe wrote the last and best word

I am now willing to listen and learn from all my brothers and sisters who honor Christ and the gospel with me

Folks that's the language of Vatican 2 and Hence another one who once stood and oh boy.

I hope you I hope you pray for everyone who still stands for truth Because it can happen to anybody

It can happen to anybody Say you mean you mean you don't believe in eternal security. That's not what I'm talking about But it's very very easy to to slip into the mindset that says, you know, we're the only ones left out here

You know We've I charged to the battlefront and then I turned around and to my chagrin found that I was all alone

It's easy to get discouraged It's easy to find yourself on that on that battlefront saying well

Nobody left out here. So why in the world should I should I continue this this fight?

when When frequently I'll be perfectly honest with you, you know, I could honestly

The the personal attacks of Catholic apologists and Mormon apologists and people like that, you know

That that I expect that That's not to say I enjoy it But if I expect that what really really makes me at times talk about opening a tire shop in Alaska is the friendly fire

The the the the callous attitude of the people who are supposed to be on your side That's what just makes me want to pull my beard out.

I was gonna say hair, but those of you know me know that won't work That that's the truly discouraging stuff is a friendly fire

Why don't you do this? Why don't you write on that? You know, you should do it this way.

You should do it that way and and and and and and it's a friendly fire That really gets to you after a while. It's not what the people on the other side.

So you expect that You expect that kind of hate you don't expect the the kind of stuff that you know

The older I get the less I appreciate it unless I even want to deal with it. I'm gonna tell you that much and Then sometimes, you know, if you look at at what's supposed to be on your side and you see such confusion amongst people

That you just sometimes, you know many times the prayer in our church is Lord as we look around us

It it it just seems hopeless, but we know you're still in control. Our our site is so limited

So very much, you know, we can't see the live vibrant fellowships on other continents and things like that I hear about them and I'm glad they're there, but it's not easy to remember

Them, you know all the time It really isn't and So it's easy to start getting a little bit on the on the discouraged side

But then when I do that, I read some of the great the great writings of men of past ages

I read some Jonathan Edwards and I get convicted and and I realize hey, you know what? I've said it to others.

I've got to say it to myself God simply calls you to be faithful where he calls you to minister.

It's not your job to Run the whole show

You're just a very little teeny -tiny and in my case rather insignificant little part of the whole thing and you just do what you're supposed to do and Leave the rest in God's hands.

He will take care of it and That's what we trust. He's going to do eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

I guess the subject today has not been the kind that has prompted people to pick up To pick up the phone.

In fact that someone in channel just said that I'm on a great rant So, so I'm going to try to read rant in a positive light there

It is true it is it is a Obviously something that touches my heart greatly

Because I see people, you know, I met a young man. I hope he's listening a young man in Austin And I think he went out to lunch with Nina one of our ops and channel and her husband and But he talked to me during some of the breaks and just extremely

Encouraging this broadcast that had a lot to do with him growing in his in his knowledge of the truth and and When I travel

I get to meet a lot of folks like that it's extremely encouraging to hear that we don't hear it nearly as much as as As I'd like to but when

I get chance to travel I do hear it and It is very very encouraging to to know that the

Lord has blessed in that way but when you see folks out there like that you see folks out there who are hungry for the

Word of God, they love the truth and then they They hear about these defections

They hear they hear about people who have edited books in the past written articles in the past that had helped them and now all of a

Sudden they seem to be on the other side and that's discouraging and that it's fully understandable why it's discouraging but learn from that How you should never ever ever confuse the messenger for the message

Avoid and look we're all liable to this but avoid man worship

Avoid putting people on pedestals and Confusing the insights you've gained from them with they themselves

I Mean if someone has the ability As I understand it, I'm fairly decent at explaining

Complex things so that people can understand what the issues are and respond to them. That's that's the gift

That's been given to me. I don't deserve any credit for that. I Mean there are people who have all sorts of gifts and abilities they come from God They don't get any credit for that if it comes from God, that's it

You don't you don't give yourself credit for those things so if I have helped you to understand something great fine wonderful, but that that's

That's you thank God for that. Not me that I'm I don't matter in that in that instance and if I went off and And became some sort of wacko it out there.

That doesn't change the truth of what has been said To get that out of your mind and if some of these people who are going off into weird things these days

Once blessed you that doesn't mean you have to chuck everything out the window

Any insights that you've gotten from that person? It's not an all -or -nothing or all situation

You know, I mean Clark Pinnock is a glowing heretic. I mean if heretics glowed green

He would blind you I mean he'd make the the Hulk look pale But he wrote stuff before he went nutters

That was that I appreciated in defense of inerrancy in the whole nine yards So You don't know what's happened in his life that caused these

Changes or in anybody else that we've mentioned today So be wise in how you look at People how you look at your favorite ministers and teachers and things like that Avoid man worship if you hear the

Word of God from someone then thank God for the Word of God Pray for that individual that they will remain faithful, but make sure you differentiate between the messenger and the message

I Think that's very very important. Let's go ahead and Take one phone call today at eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one

Let's talk with brother Steve back in New Jersey. Hi Steve. How are you?

Dr. White? We're putzing along yes, I just want to say that I just wanted to I Appreciate the ministry of Alfred Omega and and your teachings.

They have been very very helpful to me and to a number of people and who are familiar with them and So that you know that our culture is such that the world is

Does these things to us that you've been talking about? That's what

I think it is. I think it's a lot. It's just our culture That to a large extent that makes people do and act the way they do

Even in even in places like Westminster Well, obviously, you know in places like that,

I think it is Not just our culture, but I think it is the culture As it expresses itself in its idolization of quote -unquote scholarship

It's exaltation of you know scholars say well, could we ask some questions about?

About who why upon what foundation? You know scholarship is supposed to teach you how to be able to do research and then there's this element of actually taking the facts that you have researched and Placing them in a coherent system of thought that accurately reflects a well -thought -out worldview that part is falling out of classical scholarly teaching and as a result much that calls itself scholarship such as the

Jesus seminar is is a is a Well, it's laughable in comparison to the scholarship of someone like a

Jonathan Edwards or something like that and so that unfortunately is is slipping into even those bastions of Reformed thought unfortunately and and I think the very fact that you cannot point to a theological seminary that remains committed to its founding principles for any

Extensive length of time also tells us something about The fact that there is something really basically wrong with how we have thought about Christian education for a long long time

I couldn't agree more, but you know it's it's up to I think the lady to demand the

Good stuff well Except that the laity have have been you know are have generally been as dumbed down as the as the scholarship has been

I mean let's let's let's think about it I mean the vast majority of folks who come into our churches today are so soaked in postmodern thought that the first time you attempt

To challenge them to think in a radical Christian fashion There's there's offense, and there's hard feelings, and you mean you mean

I shouldn't think this way I have you know the Christianity addresses the very way. I think well. That's radical weird stuff.

You know and So but even within the Christian Church, yeah You read odds

Guinness What was the book? Fit bodies fat mind he talks about how we've sort of gotten away from our roots mm -hmm

Over over the last couple hundred years just in this country alone Well, it's very true the death of truth

Unfortunately is is finding its way into those who claim to follow the one who is the way

The truth and the life and who rose from the dead it is an irony of great proportions but it is what we're facing and as As God gives us the ability we will continue to fight the fight despite Being as popular as as a horde of ticks for most people but you know we'll

Hopefully they'll will still have enough friends to to keep our little little office and operation going and Continue to speak the truth and trust the

Lord with the results Well, God bless. I'm sure he will all right. Thanks a lot Steve you keep serving the

Lord back there all right Yeah, if you can serve the Lord in New Jersey you can serve the Lord almost anywhere

We love y 'all there in New Jersey, there's great folks in New Jersey It's just you know I I would have hard time living in a socialist country personally, but oh

Goodness don't get me on that. That's that's a whole. That's you know we don't we don't want to get on that That's that's a whole nother

Well, I don't think anyone else is called eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and one of the bad things is that Since we changed our time for the for the dividing line.

We can't have Warren in and Therefore Warren can't I can't say we're gonna have

Warren sing Elvis on the air and that always that used to work all the time, but now

I Suppose we could ask him to record some of that and then just sort of have it on standby

Ready to go, but I'm not sure that would really have the same effect as as actually having them there

But y 'all y 'all who have gained anything y 'all That's have been in Texas recently y 'all who gained anything

Pay it no mind from the program today. It should be very very thankful to to the man whose voice you hear in those those scintillating countdowns in the pre

Webcasting period telling you how many minutes you have left before the program begins Who himself has developed quite a following in fact?

I understand that bootleg copies of his countdown are now being sold on eBay and So you need to thank him because Not all that long

About an hour before the program. I saw him standing over the computer that is bringing this to you

And it was in pieces, and he had a CPU. I mean we're talking the chip here

We're talking you know not with the fan and the sink. We're talking the chip in his hand and I won't repeat some of the things that he was saying to the computer.

They were not vulgar or anything, but they they were expressive of Displeasure, it's dead

Yep, that's that's that was the condition in fact I had announced that no dividing line today

But no no if you got anything out of today's program You can thank mr..

Pierce for doing a Very rapid brain surgery computer

I tell you I Still remember when we back at kpxq the internet connection

Was we had to go into this room, and there's like this bank of phone connections and wires everywhere and And some of them are loose just hanging out in the middle of nowhere

And we had to take these little alligator clips And you had to know exactly which to to put the alligator clips on and that's how you did the webcast it was incredible But hey we learned from that and we continue learning.

Thanks for listening today Pray that God will encourage all those who stand for his truth that his truth will be proclaimed from pulpits this coming

Lord's day And yes, Lord willing as long as that CPU survived the the brain surgery

We'll be back Thursday afternoon 4 o 'clock here on the dividing line. See you then that's a o

Min dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James Weiss books tapes debates and tracks