The Church Elders Interview | Jeramie Rinne

We're back with another episode of the room for nuance podcast.

My name is Sean DeMars.

Your name is Jeremy Rennie Jeremy.

Will you open us up in prayer?

I would love to okay Heavenly Father we love you so much because you've chosen us for

the foundation of the world.

Thank you for sending your son To die for us to rise again.

We thank you for sending the Holy Spirit to give us the new birth and to give us faith and so Lord We just recognize we're all

in your hands that our salvation is from you and through you and to you and Lord.

Which thank you for your church.

I thank you for Christians and churches and elders and pastors serving all over the world and they God you're getting your

great kingdom work done through this ragtag band of redeemed sinners.

Thanks Lord for this conversation.

Thanks for Sean's ministry and pray that you would cause the words We speak to each other to be helpful to anyone who

listens in Christ's name.

Amen.

You've been called the Jimmy Buffett of the nine marks world.

I did not.

Something interesting from your prayer just now.

Yeah, you said this ragtag.

Yeah.

Would you say ragtag?

Yeah something.

Yeah, we get that like a ragtag team.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I Feel that more than ever.

I've been feeling that more than ever lately.

Jesus brings up brings a whole bunch of screw -ups together and uses us.

Yeah, is that something that you just kind of threw out there subconsciously or like it?

Have you been meditating on that?

Um, I yeah, so I did just throw it out there as I was thinking but I think it's just my experience of 27

years of ministry is yeah, I'm always working with a ragtag bunch of people.

Yeah, and I'm like chief ragtag among.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I see the shirt.

You're wearing.

Yeah.

So the title of this episode is going probably gonna be like the eldering

episode.

Okay, but before we get into that, yeah, can you tell us your testimony how you came to know the Lord.

Sure my mother brought us to church and.

And not father not father.

He came to Christ a little later, but my mom was wanting to get us into a church so she took us a little

Baptist Church, I grew up in Las Vegas, Nevada just outside and Little little Baptist Church in

our town and so they preached the gospel and I heard the gospel in Vacation Bible School and youth group and

They didn't alter call every Sunday.

And and it was just one of those things where as the pastor priest as he shared the gospel every Sunday

preached exposition.

Lee.

I just started to feel that conviction and that that sense of What I would call it is summons.

I felt like the Lord is summoning me to follow him and.

And so I just repented and believed and it was kind of not remarkable.

I think I later went down for an altar call, but I think I was already saved at that point but.

Yeah, and and so I just grew up in a church where it's just kind of mean potatoes teaching the Bible.

I grew up under expositional preaching in my faith.

So I just assume that was what you did.

So when I eventually became a pastor, that's all I really knew and.

And so I grew up in that church was discipled in that church and then from there went to Wheaton College.

From undergraduate.

Okay, and then.

Yeah, then Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary from my grad school and what what years was that

that was.

I graduated from Wheaton in 93.

And Gordon Conwell in 96.

So you had David Wells.

I had David Wells or Nicole.

Yeah, I'd missed Roger.

Nicole had Greg Beal okay nice for a lot which was great.

Haddon Robinson's wonderful homiletics teacher.

Yeah.

Alright, and then so walk Meredith Klein for biblical theology.

Yeah, I didn't even know what I was sitting under.

Yeah, and then later I was like wait, I was like with the Yoda of the biblical theology world.

Yeah, you were like biblical theology, right guys.

Yeah, like we all get this right and I realize yeah.

Yeah, okay.

But walk us from you get saved to the path.

Like the path to becoming a pastor.

Did your youth pastor say like, oh you've got the call.

How did you get there.

I I just had a great like you should be making margaritas somewhere, you know, so.

Yeah, no comment.

I yeah, so I In high school was just

excited about the Word of God is excited about ministry teaching vacation Bible school teaching.

You know going on short -term mission trips.

Well, I really wanted to do more with mission so between my junior and senior of high school.

I spent two months Taiwan doing a short -term mission.

Basically, we did these teach English as a second language classes not like any formal trained sense

just more like hey Here's Americans hang out with them and talk English, but we do it in the church.

Then we build relationships and share the gospel but after the end of that I just had a

Sense of a desire to give my life to serve the Lord in whatever that meant.

So we're doing a debrief at the end of our mission trip.

All these different teams came back and reassembled.

And and I was sitting by a lake one night under the stars and I was just like Lord like, you know

I enlist I'm in.

I'm like, I don't know what that means.

I don't know if I'm gonna go to mission field.

I don't know if I'm gonna be a pastor.

I don't know what that means.

But like take my life I want to serve you and so that was kind of the crossing the Rubicon for me

and then from there.

Getting into the pastoral ministry is more like a dimmer switch slowly turning on over a multiple -year period.

Yeah.

Well, when did you when did the light officially become on like really like when was the room

well lit?

I think it was.

It was when I finally Got to seminary and then started getting

involved in a local church in Massachusetts.

Which ended up being the church.

I became the senior pastor of okay, but at that time I was just an intern and

No, that was.

Yeah, this one was from like 1940 years.

Okay, so then yeah, so I I just started getting involved in pastoral ministry and then

and Finally, I got a my first job there as an assistant and that's kind of when it started clicking

like oh, I like this I you know, this is it.

It's pastoral work.

So it wasn't like you saw the the pastor and thought oh, I want to do that.

Yeah, it was almost like there was a need you were happy to meet it.

And then as you were doing that you were like, oh, this is actually great.

Yeah, and and kind of like the Lord was I think I just had a broader Field of view of

what I could do, but the Lord kept just kind of closing it and it was like, you know mission field.

No.

Just certain things happen things we pursued kept getting blocked and then other things started getting blocked

until finally I was in pastoral ministry and I was like, yes, you know.

This is where I'm going and it just kind of like one thing led to another.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Did you ever think about?

Going into like academia or anything like that.

Once I became a senior pastor.

There was a period where I started toying with should I go back and get a PhD?

Yeah, maybe church history or something and I remember I was just praying about it one day walking and.

And asking the Lord like Lord, what you know, what do you want me to do?

And and I love studying the Great Awakening.

I love studying these these periods where there's great preaching and people are coming to faith and and

I just have this sense of like, you know.

You could study that or you could just do it.

You could be the preacher not, you know that I'm George Whitefield or somebody but just like I could preach the word.

Why not?

Why not actually just do it and let someone else study the history of it.

Yeah.

And then you said I am the best pastor.

And I know all the things that's ragtag pastor.

Yes.

And so what I'm gonna do is take it upon myself to write the manual.

For eldering and you did it.

Wow.

Yeah.

Yeah, almost like that just a little bit.

All right.

Tell us your version.

Okay, my version that's the version that I'm gonna tell but you tell your fair enough.

Okay, my version was Talking to Jonathan Lehman.

How did you guys know each other?

We knew each other through nine marks.

So I did you know about nine marks?

I was going okay, so I've been in the church seven years pastoring the church number of completion.

It is the number of completion.

It's also the number of sabbatical.

So and the church was growing.

I was very pragmatic in my approach to the local church but I was doing exposition and

I was wrestling with yeah, like every axe 29 Church.

Yes, I was preaching the word consecutively exposition and.

But I was just kind of like well, hey, let's try that saddleback.

Okay, let's try that and let's try this and oh I heard about that kind of thing approach to philosophy ministry and I

was wrestling with it and the church was was growing numerically.

Then it's getting that sense of like momentum and energy.

So then it was seven years in it and I was like, I told the elders.

I was like, I like a sabbatical I said I want to Figure out the model for our church

and that was the language those category head.

I'm like I want the model so this was my sabbatical dude, I Went all summer to

different churches every week to check out the model.

And I went like all over the country.

I went and visited any friends I had and I checked out different churches.

Yeah, you go on.

Yeah, tell us the worst one.

What was the worst one.

Saddleback freaked me out.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean it was I know it was the worst but I definitely had like a strong Reaction I've heard the children's ministry there has like a Noah's Ark

thing where which is rad it floods.

No, it's rad.

Yeah refills.

Really?

Yeah, like it's like every 15 minutes.

There's I mean, they don't have like the people die.

I was gonna say like other drowning people not no dead bodies.

Everyone's in the ark.

You went around you visited and eventually what you made it you tried CHBC so so here's what happened I was

planning this this nomadic pragmatic thing and

I got my Gordon Conwell alumni magazine there's this article in there by Michael Lawrence who I'd

gone to seminary with a Gordon Conwell and He was at CHBC Capitol Baptist.

So And he had he had an article in there about a sermon application grid and I was like, oh, that's cool I like that

and then at the bottom it's like he's with nine marks ministries and I was like, what's that?

And so the internet had like just been invented.

So I I Went on and I googled or whatever.

It was back then nine marks and I found the website you put in the CD for a well.

Okay, yeah, that's right and you probably use Yahoo search.

And I just look and I started clicking through the website and all the nine marks and I was like wait.

This is the mod the model that I keep seeing in the Bible

and I was like wait.

You can actually just how old are you at this point?

I would be before okay, and

and so I I so I clicked I saw a weekender so I clicked on it and I and so the beginning of my.

This journey I went on started with the CHBC weekender and I went to it and it

was you know.

It's like I was born again.

And then when I found reformed theology, I was born again again.

And when I found biblical theology, I was born again again, and then this was born again again again I was just like this is

look.

They're actually just doing trying to follow the Bible for church.

And then I spent the rest of the summer going to all these other churches going.

No.

No, but now I knew why because I was like wait this isn't you know.

So it was like the whole thing came together like a thunderclap.

It was the first time I saw.

You know went to a church where the pastor had been recorded and he showed it on a screen and I was like no.

You know no and I knew why no and not that God isn't doing good things in all those other churches.

But I was just I knew that like this is the model I had found was that I could just follow the the New

Testament.

So it was really it was amazing so then I came back and I did a sabbatical report for my church and I Was like we have

I'm like this is what God's given me from the sabbatical and I just put one word up on the screen.

It just said Reformation.

I'm like we need to help our church follow the scripture wherever God has spoken about.

The church in the scriptures, how is that received?

I think people were a little bit shocked, but then again.

Like for me, how can you argue with if it's just in the Bible?

So like, you know elders.

It's like once you put the elder glasses on you're like, oh, it's everywhere.

So then you can't unsee it and so it's like as long as it's in the Bible.

Then like why would why wouldn't we listen to what Jesus has to say about his church how many members did you have at

that time?

More or less I Would be maybe 400.

Okay.

Yeah, that's a big ship to turn.

I mean not the biggest.

Yeah, not the how many elders did you have?

There was like maybe 10 or 12.

So they had elders and so you were elders and congregational.

You weren't like deacon run or anything like that Elder led congregational.

Okay.

Was it did you present it to your elders first or to the whole congregation?

I think I just I just came back just a big report.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah and so you began to Implement that how quickly?

Over the next Ten years.

Oh.

Okay, so you were like we need to change but it's while you're not gonna blow everything up.

I didn't blow everything up I just slowly turn the ship.

I mean, you know, this is New England and New England.

You know, like, you know, you know how many New Englanders it takes change the light bulb, right?

How many change right?

They're just like really change suspicious.

They're really slow.

You know.

The British are still coming one of my land to if I see and so like people are really cautious about change.

So then you just have to slowly plant seeds talk about things and then slowly turn the ship and

and build consent.

It's actually healthy.

You have to build consensus and you have to show people it's not just like hey, listen to me I'm the pastor.

You have to be like, this is why here's what the Bible says.

Hey, think about it and then slowly.

But surely they get it.

Well, then I just have a question to ask.

Yeah.

Did you know that all ants are females?

All ants are females.

Yeah, you didn't know that.

Yeah, I can prove it to you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

So if they were males, they'd be called uncles.

Your dad joke game is on Point yes.

Well, let me ask you this.

What's the hottest letter in the alphabet?

B.

Because it turns the oil into boil, baby.

Back to church revitalization you go back you say Reformation you got a 10 -year plan.

What's the first thing you change?

I Don't remember.

I think the first thing I started doing with the elders was just Shifting from.

I mean we had elders, but they were more of a board of directors model

more of a trustees model and.

And sort of like hey, how do we all learn as a team to start shepherding?

And other changes came out of that.

I think a burden for training up pastors.

So we eventually started pastoral apprenticeship program a burden for more of a culture of discipleship in the

church.

Versus just kind of lots of programs lots of activity.

So being in general I think when you really start looking at scripture and you start asking the

question, what does the Bible say?

It it just puts you your footing your weight in a more intentional direction and an

intentionality about Critically thinking about things as opposed to just hey, how

many people came a lot.

It was good, right, right.

What was the biggest change you made like this?

Here's a pragmatic thing that we we got rid of in light of this Change of mindset.

I think one of the big things we eventually took a while was Once we had room

moving to one worship service.

Oh you were doing too.

Yeah, we're doing small building New England.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but but even before that and then and we built a new space.

So then we could all fit in it.

So that that was the change there.

So you ended up writing the book because through that whole process you met Jonathan Lehman,

yes.

Okay, well, you just had like a conference for scholars.

Uh, no.

He may have been I wasn't yeah I was no.

But I did I I knew him through because I went to that weekend or I started meeting some people at Capitol Hill Baptist.

And I remember we've gone to something together and we're in the airport.

Leaving and so I'm just sitting there with him for 15 -20 minutes.

And he's like and I think I'd written a couple articles for them and he's like Jeremy.

It was all about a book.

And so I was like, no, it's a pretty decent micro impression.

Pretty good.

Yeah, yeah, I mean that CHBC guys are good.

They're easy to yeah.

So anyway, so I was like I was like, yeah, I was like not really.

He's like you should think about a book and I was like on what like I have no I've never had an aspiration to be An

author of anything like I can like I can wear these shirts.

Yeah, sure.

Yeah, you want me to write a book about shirts cuz I'll do that.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, that's right.

Vacation shirts.

Yeah, and so so we kind of were like, hold on.

Were you wearing those in Boston or no?

Yeah, no, no, this is a Florida thing.

This is contextualization.

That may or may not be the last time I make fun of your outfit it's for the rest of the interview.

It's okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's fine.

It's yeah, I love it.

I mean I got to Florida and and this is what like dude They literally just like this shorts and these kind of shirts in church.

So I'm like great.

It's like this how I go to elders meetings.

Yeah, if you were a blazer it would they wouldn't even be able to hear the Gospel.

Yeah.

Yeah that no, they would be like, why are you wearing?

That's right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's a very laid -back culture.

So he says So then and

then he's like, what would you write on it?

I had a couple ideas.

I was like I could write about elders and he's like, well, what would you write?

And I was like, well, I said, you know the thing I feel like My guy's need is just a

very User friendly kind of field manual for how to be an elder and we use strock.

Before that he wrote a book on elders, which is better than the book I wrote, but it's just thicker and it's more complex.

So when I was getting it's not really congregational, it's not I think he comes from another rural background.

Yeah, that's right.

So he and and when I would give it to my elders, I back aren't gonna read this chapter gonna read this through this.

So so I was like, okay my guys just need something simpler that I could just hand them and

say hey.

This is what being an elder is and and it's something that I knew they're like, oh I could actually do that.

As much as you want all your readers.

I mean all your elders to be like super big readers.

Like they're dudes and they're working busy jobs and whatever so so that sounds like I could do that

and he's like well, let's think about that and like literally in 15 minutes

we had all the chapters nailed down.

I was like we could write about that that and that he's like, okay.

Okay, you scratch it.

He's like there you go.

There's your book and then I I looked at it and I was like actually couldn't I mean anyone could write any pastor who has

Elders could have written on that.

Yeah, and so I just was like, okay, I guess I'm the one that's gonna do it so I did it and And so

yeah, that's how that was birthed.

I've come to realize once I've peeked behind the curtain of Book publishing that

editors write more of the book than the author sometimes Don't be modest or non modest.

What would you like?

How much of your book made it through the?

To the final it it's it's mostly mine what I would say though is

The the editor did it and it was like when you like make a piece of pottery then you glaze it and you

come out.

And and you look at you're like dang that looks amazing.

That's what the editor did like after he wrote it I he made me sound a lot smarter than I really am so a

good at like they always say a good editor really makes A book it's so true.

Yeah, very good editor.

Yeah.

All right.

So let's walk through the book.

Yeah, I Don't have a copy.

So you walk us through your book chapter one.

Here we go.

Okay so I Framed eight chapters around

things That are part of the elders job description.

So chapter one is don't assume.

That means don't just assume you're an elder.

In other words, it's look at the elder qualifications in Scripture.

Okay, and and let's so it's kind of like a slowdown.

Let's look at this.

Yeah, should you be an elder?

Yeah.

The second is smell like sheep.

Okay.

Well, let's let's stop on number one.

Okay, don't assume.

What was the idea behind that was were you seeing guys who were just too gung -ho or who thought that it was I

think In my own context there would often be a kind of

like well that guy's been here a while.

And he's a good guy.

Yeah, and he may have been or may not have been but it Maybe he didn't meet the

qualifications.

I think I tell the story in the book of this one guy.

This bro is like uber servant he does everything in the church.

He was it's just a he's a godly man, but he has no desire to teach.

The last thing he'd ever want to do is lead a Bible study group.

He doesn't do any of that.

He's like it's not my thing.

And so I'm like well You can't be an elder because you have to be apt to teach in some way not that I doubted his theology.

He want to be an elder.

He didn't want to be an elder people wanted him to be another.

Yeah, his name kept coming up because they're like he's so good and I'm like, yeah.

But that and so and I also think just sort of this idea that like elders you know you kind of get up to senior management if

you've been in the company long enough and.

And I'm like we got to stop putting a value statement on elders over deacons or that over anything else.

Like this is an office.

He sounds like the perfect deacon.

Oh, he is.

He's like super deacon.

Yeah, yeah, he's oozes deacon and it would have it would have been bad for him and for the church for him not to be.

Doing his deacon things.

Yeah, that's good.

Have you ever found the opposite young guys who feel like they are entitled like I'm like, I'm getting it and I'm gonna be another.

Yeah.

That's you know, that's that's the other side of you know, you aspire to be an elder.

So there has to be that inward desire, but it has to have that external confirmation, right?

You gotta have other people being like, yeah, we see it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Chapter number two.

It's called smell like sheep.

Mmm, and that's more our guys use that phrase all the time, by the way, really?

Yeah, it's it's such a powerful illustration.

It just it's it's part of our culture now.

We use that language.

So thank you for that.

Yeah, and actually interestingly Sabiti wrote a book on elders and deacons

and he wrote about smelling like sheep.

No, I think he wrote an article and so I was already had like right written the the chapter and then he's the same language.

Yeah, I was like, oh bro.

Can I use this mic?

I didn't get it from you, but I was like, yeah.

So anyway, okay, so I think maybe he like got it and then like beamed it to me or something.

Anyway, yeah, but it's and really the idea is it's it's not so much like well, I guess it is a task but

it's just more conceiving of the elder job as being among the people and

because I think a lot of our guys and a lot of elders just generally they think being an elder is showing up at the meeting and

voting on stuff and.

That's you know, you've done your job if you showed at the meeting once a month and voted on stuff, right?

To give a real -life example of what it looks like to elder at our elders meeting we go through the membership

directory have conversations and if there's like More than one meeting where as

we're working through the directory a particular elders like I don't know.

You know, like I don't know what's going on with anybody.

Well.

What are you doing?

Like the meeting is where we get together to like collectively focus on Things that we should have already been

doing independently with members of the church.

We should already be active be in there.

Yeah.

Yeah, and even when you're looking for elders I think it's really important to be looking for guys who

are already doing that stuff in the church.

So you're like, hey, look at that community group leader or look at that guy.

He's always like tracking people down.

So I had a guy a church planner who actually ended up planning a church I won't tell you

about how that went, but he planted a church.

Who told me bro?

I just don't like people.

Wow.

How is it possible that he made it through like church planning cohorts and all this stuff and planted a church.

And it never came out or maybe it did come out and somebody didn't care.

But he was like, yeah, not just introverted.

But yeah, I don't I just don't like people.

Yeah.

Extroverted.

Yeah, that's problematic.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's right.

That's a non -starter.

Hey, yeah so basically you should smell like the sheep that means that you should be around the sheep

so much that.

Like you think about first Peter, right?

Like yeah shepherd the flock of God that is among among you.

Yeah, you're not distant from them.

You're not above them.

You are with them.

You're with them just like an actual shepherd.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's the job.

Yeah, it's a hands -on job.

So when I have a little bit of BO, that's just what I tell people I'm a

shepherd.

It's not me.

It's not people.

I'm with it's God's calling on my life.

I'm a little funky.

You know the call Note that one I'm not

kidding Luke's literally right down I'm over you write that down

Number three.

Yes.

Number three is teach the word.

Okay.

So yeah being able to teach.

So you have to be able to get up in a pulpit like preach like Spurgeon.

Almost okay.

No, actually not you have to be able to hold the sound doctrine and

Refute those who oppose it.

So and what I tell our elders is is Instructing people in sound doctrine and holding the sound doctrine can

take place in a lot of different venues.

It can take place in a pulpit.

It can take place in a Sunday school class.

You can lead a community group.

You might just be someone who sits down over coffee and does one -to -one Bible reading with someone.

So so it's it's not a gift of Oratorical brilliance.

It's the ability to hold the sound doctrine and instruct and encourage people in it.

In any group of people any kind of organization from the Navy SEALs to

local church pastors.

There's gonna be a bell curve.

You're gonna have the best and the brightest and you're gonna have the guys who are like, oh, you're a Navy SEAL.

Like, how did you yeah, but like he made it.

Yeah somehow.

Yeah, would you say I mean, I think that's true of elders.

Yeah, you're gonna have like your standout when it's apt to teach you point to this guy and you say like him.

Then you have other guys where some people might go.

Huh, yeah, but like, you know, you've seen him lead his family and devotionals.

Yeah, you know that he's doing one -on -one discipleship with guys and he's probably and even when he teaches a Sunday school.

It's probably not fantastic, but it's faithful.

If there's a doctrinal issue that comes up in the church, you know, he's gonna You know make the right decisions.

He's gonna read even if he has to spend more time reading and writing than other guys do he's gonna get there.

So is that fair to think about?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I just think maybe the way to categorize that is is different amounts of

gifting.

So, you know eight eight people can have a gift of teaching but one person could be like a ridiculous

teacher.

Another guy can be faithful and maybe he's not gonna ever be invited to speak at some huge conference.

But like man that bros an elder.

Yeah, yeah, and I think and I think it's true in my kind of all the different gift gifts and we really I mean We just put a premium on

gifting in our culture like a amount of gifting more than the scripture does I agree?

Yeah chapter number four.

Okay, I forget the order at this point.

Yeah.

Some of the other chapters are lead together.

So plurality.

Okay.

So we talked about that that it's that it's something where the Lord brings together a plurality of elders to your point

if you think about the duties and elder has.

Some elders are gonna be stronger in some of those duties and others hence the value of plurality.

So like I've had some elders who are really good teachers good doctrinal students.

They're just theologically sharp.

I've had others who are like have like compassion coming out their ears and you need those

guys.

And then I've had others who are just like crazy good leaders.

They're able to see a situation.

You know that they can get to the heart of it and they have the courage to be like guys.

We must do this and and if you don't have all of those kind of Leanings

operating fully like you're just gonna be imbalanced as an elder team.

I'm thinking about my four elders.

We have another one who's on sabbatical Shane high school principal.

Administratively really helpful.

There was an administrative question that we had in an email exchange.

With one email with one sentence in one email.

He clarified the issue caused us to go in the other direction.

Then we have Russell he is the evangelism apologetics guy like the logical

like a computer.

Yes.

But not the most get to the heart preacher or teacher guy.

Then we have will assistant pastor.

Obviously coming into his own as a counselor the best listener Supremely patient

asks all the right questions has a heart to see that developed in the church and then you have me.

Not nothing.

You see all those different giftings.

Yes.

Coming together.

Yeah.

Yeah, beautiful beautiful the way that the Lord has designed multiple elders to work together in the church is

Truly a mosaic one of the things I enjoy honestly is whenever we have new elders rotate on is

It's a little bit like Christmas where I'm like, I wonder what they're gonna think is gonna be and

you kind of like fun.

They're like it's sort of like a movie where you know, they bring like the 12 guys together, you know Ocean's 12 or whatever ocean

11.

Yeah, and you know like you're gonna have skills and you're like, okay that's the hacker guy and that's this guy and except knowing

that you know, Like Paul says to the elders in Acts 20 like, you know shepherd the flock God of which the Holy Spirit

has made you overseer.

So that sense that the Holy Spirit Lord willing has appointed these

These men and so it's like what things is the Holy Spirit put in on the table and What

providentially is coming down the road in the next few years where we're gonna be like, oh, that's why you're here.

Yes, and that happens.

Yeah, and it's so cool.

It is so cool.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Have you ever just while we're on the subject new elder first of all, you got to give him time.

Yeah, you can't be like, okay new elder.

This is your thing I mean you can do that if there's a need obviously go to meet the need but there's a sense in which you got To give

guys a little bit of wiggle room to figure out where they are particularly gifted, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, that's right I remember Garrett Kell when he first went on staff at CHBC went to mark and said like

What am I doing here and Mark was like if you're really a pastor you'll figure it out, you know He did he wasn't

assigned something.

He was like, well, my schedule is not full.

And he's like if you're really a pastor your schedule will fill up and you will find out soon enough where people

are Really bearing well like where fruit is being born in light of your ministry.

I thought that was really wise I know that it's not always that easy.

Yeah, you know big church big staff a little bit more wiggle room, but yeah I was gonna ask you

something else.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Have you appointed an elder that you regret it?

Not regretting like the non -christian sense obviously got a sovereign we're like maybe wasn't a right fit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And Where you just think Yeah, or you didn't see something about

them or you saw a weakness like we all have but you didn't realize it would become This

big.

Yeah.

And and those those are times I you know where you just have to I don't know you

have a challenge Yeah, and you have to work through it and bear with one another in love.

How long have you been a pastor?

27 years you think probably retire as a pastor.

Yeah, most likely.

So let's just say nice round number you spend 40 years pastoring and hopefully Most of that

time raising up other men To lead.

Yeah, the odds of you not getting you know, something wrong is zero.

Yeah, you know like yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean the wisest among us.

Oh, yeah.

Have appointed guys and they get they get flack like how could how could you have made that mistake?

Oh, well you he's not God you see.

He's not omniscient.

You know, we do the best we can we look at the character qualifications.

That's right.

We look at a person's life.

We are not quick to lay hands.

That's right, right?

And so we we do our best In the same way that we do that with baptism and membership.

Hiring staff hiring.

Yeah, it's like it's it's hard.

Yeah.

Yeah, we're doing the best we can with what we got.

Yeah, what we got ain't much.

No, what we got is a lot.

We got the spirit's help.

We got the gospel.

We got the scriptures.

Yeah caught myself there.

But it is it's back to the ragtag thing.

The lord uses just These clay vessels, you know and these imperfect people.

Uh, but by his grace, you know, you know in our weakness his strength is made perfect.

So I think that's.

That's what he does.

That's why that diamond dude is really good.

Did I interrupt your heart?

Your heart do the do it's cool.

Um.

Have you read team of rivals?

No, what is this?

Who's it by?

Luke you don't know you don't know how to read.

It's about sports.

No.

Uh dorothy I want to no, that's not.

You got it.

Luke wizard of oz team of rivals.

This is about luke Lincoln's cabinet.

Oh interesting.

Oh, i've heard about yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's so fantastic I can't remember the name of the author.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's so I did smoke a lot of crystal meth when I was younger.

So my brain is not really Yeah, doris kearns goodwin team of rivals team of rivals

when I was reading that book.

It's all about how lincoln managed to hold together this coalition.

Of people that should not have held together.

But he saw it as integral to make to make it through the war yeah to keep this group together

because this person had this strength and this person had this strength and this and like we need all of them here together

in this crucial moment and as I was Working through that book.

I just kept thinking this is such a good common grace example of jesus with his disciples and of every pastor working

with with elders and in his ministry.

Just jesus brought together people that should not have been together.

You got the zealot and you got the tax collector, but they all followed him and he was able to wisely lead them.

Yeah, there were some kerfuffles Along the way, but he managed it, you know.

In fact, I would say it's in those moments where you you start running into either personality

conflicts or bad fits or something.

Where where you or just like challenges with working with elders that you really are tested.

Do I really believe That plurality of elder leadership is jesus's plan

for the church.

And do I really trust that god works through it?

And and there's times where you're like, yeah, it's so beautiful.

It's rocking and there's other times where you're like I think it'd be more efficient if I just made all the decisions

but I trust that this is jesus's plan for jesus's church.

I'm, so glad you said that.

There are so many times in pastoral ministry.

Where I go, I think it would just be easier if we did x.

Whether it's plurality.

I mean think about meaningful membership and discipline.

Yeah, think about how much easier in in one sense in the worst sense from the eternal perspective.

Yeah, yeah, but from a carnal perspective from an efficiency from an.

Yeah, so -called efficiency so -called efficiency.

Imagine how much easier it would be if you didn't practice meaningful church membership.

Yeah, it would be a breeze.

It'd be so much, you know, they come in they go out somebody leaves you go.

Yeah, you know.

Numbers are up numbers are up.

Yeah, we're doing good.

Do you there's a somebody's not showing up for church for a year and rather than bringing it before the church and saying like hey.

We're gonna discipline this person.

You just go.

Huh?

They're not here.

Take them off the roll.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay next chapter.

Um, and there's another chapter in there.

I'm forgetting the number in order.

Don't worry about it.

Seek the strays.

Yes, so the elder's job of well, just what you're talking about.

Yeah, that's right when people are not showing up.

Finding out where they are what's going on, you know tracking them down.

Seeing are they are they somewhere else?

Are they in another church?

During the hurricane we had this on steroids.

So we um, yeah, we had a almost category five hurricane in September 28th 2022 in

boston, uh, just south of boston Fort my just outside of fort myers.

So I passed around sanibel island so that the eye of the hurricane went just to the left of sanibel

island.

So the right arm of it, which is the the scary part like like sent a 13 -foot storm

surge.

That went all over the island covered everything.

Uh, so it was crazy and people were just dispersed.

So that the problem was we didn't we're like, where is everyone what's going on?

Are they coming back?

And so we had our our team of their proto elders at that point.

We hadn't quite shifted to elders, but they they literally just started tracking down every single person just to

find out like Like first of all, I want to make sure everyone is alive.

Thank god they were but then it was like, where are you?

What are you doing?

Are you coming back?

Are you how's your house?

How can we pray for you?

And uh, and it was just super heavy.

But it was that like we need to keep track of every Name on this list because of the

people that god's given us.

And some of them, you know, we called some people because they were still i'm still kind of new there and they hadn't really Done this a lot recently, you know, we called some people and they're like

I haven't been to church for eight years.

We're like, okay.

Well Thanks for letting us know but other people just to be clear for our viewers.

You are new to this church.

I've been there, uh three and a half years.

Yeah, so they've had membership before I came but it wasn't it wasn't as um

I would say not quite as intentional as it is now where we're really trying to.

Really the goal is that the people who are members of the church Are actively involved in the church.

You know, they're they're actually participating in the life of the church unless they're shut in.

Yeah, or something like that.

A lot of people were swept away and uh for all kinds of reasons.

Yeah, and and I mean it's just it's honestly been gut -wrenching just seeing people go

but.

Um, but you know, I mean it's just out of your control like what are you gonna do?

Yeah, someone's like I literally can't rebuild my house.

Yeah with the insurance They've given me and the new building code.

So like i'm leaving the area permanently.

It's just gut -wrenching.

So yeah.

How many members uh, like active members did you have before the hurricane?

Um I don't know active our membership list reflected what I would say active and

inactive people.

Okay, i'll say this that um before the hurricane in terms of the number of people on our membership rolls before

their hurricane.

And then we did all that follow -up.

We're estimating that we'll lose 40 of our membership.

Okay on a sunday morning.

How many people were there?

Um, so, okay.

Here's another weird thing.

So our church is is uh unique.

Well, not unique but it's different than most churches because we're a seasonal church.

That's right.

Yeah, people are down during the winter because it's beautiful then they go up north in the summer.

So in the summer Uh, we are like 250 people and in the winter it's like 600

people.

So a lot a lot of people come down.

Okay, that's kind of like ocean city.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, or other very unique.

Yeah, tourist church, which makes it interesting for membership.

It makes it interesting for shepherding and elders.

It's kind of a puzzle to solve.

Wow.

How do you do that?

Meaningfully?

Yeah, if someone's in your church for five months, yeah, and then they go back to their church in michigan for seven months.

Yeah, it's like how do you do that meaningfully the cool thing is about the people in our church is when they're down.

Like they're they're fully into it.

Yeah.

Yeah, they're into it.

Okay, so that's cool.

Let's just a different truth.

Yeah, that's I feel like I want to Unpack that but let's let's hold off on that.

Um.

Okay, let's think through different kinds of sheep that need to be tracked down.

Okay, you may have the seriously ill that you got to keep up with.

Try not to forget about them.

Even if you're not the one who's doing the visitation you want to make sure that they're loved and cared for.

Yes, absolutely.

That can even just be a church member.

And in fact in in many cases, it probably should be church members uh, then you have

The non -attender due to sin which they never say.

Hey, listen, like i'm deep in sin.

I'm not coming around.

They'll usually feign something else.

Yeah, so that's another kind.

Let's say that there is a member who is really seriously struggling with mental illness.

And you are maintaining hope that this member is actually a christian.

And they have pockets of coming back and being faithful and then pockets of being away and

being troubled.

You still got to care for them.

You got to figure that out.

So they're just Pastorally, it's not just like are they there on sunday or are they not there on sunday?

There's all kinds of things that could be going on.

Yes, and and so that's why taking a blanket approach either of

License and just being like whatever or Legalism where it's like well, you weren't here for four weeks.

So off the list you go like neither is helpful.

You have to really um, you have to be small and cheap and I think the elders have to go and just find out like

what's going on with This person and you have to take it case by case because these are real people.

And their lives are real souls.

Yeah, real souls.

Their lives are complex.

Thank god.

He doesn't deal with me in a blanket way.

You know, he's like tailored his grace to me.

Um, you know as I need it and so I think the same thing like we need to be.

So so I think i'd say our elders when it comes to just like people who aren't coming to the church.

We're patient.

Yeah, we're we're just we just keep reaching out.

We're doing phone calls.

Where you know what we really want for everyone in the church is that they would be active members Of

a gospel preaching church whether ours or another church.

Yeah, and of course we love them and wish they'd stay with ours.

But if not ours for whatever reason then like being in a church, yeah, that's right.

We're not the only church.

We say that all the time.

Hey, love you.

I don't know why you're not coming back.

But what can we do to help get you into?

Another gospel preaching bible believing church.

Yeah.

Yeah, our mission that jesus given us is to make disciples.

That's right.

It's not to grow our church.

Amen.

So yeah, um.

You tell me if this is stated too strongly, okay, I don't think it is okay.

It's an it's an elders meeting, I don't know have you guys do like issues meetings member care meeting we kind of break them up.

Okay.

Yeah, so let's say it's a member care meeting.

Okay, we have the membership directory which by the way pastors if you're listening.

You should have a membership directory.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

How can you shepherd your flock?

Yeah, if you don't literally know who the sheep like with their faces, especially if your church is larger.

You know, I want to be able to put a face with a name uh, so Our church is getting to the size

now where we can't go through the entire directory every time we do that.

But I mean, we're still a very small church.

We're like 92 members.

But you should be able to if you wanted to.

With all of your elders present walk through that membership directory and somebody in that room should be able to talk

about the spiritual condition of every single person in that directory not

As comprehensively as if you were god.

But there shouldn't ever be a time where you get to someone and you go and everyone's like no one knows what's going on.

Virginia, right, you know like Alive dead what?

Too strong.

No.

Okay.

Yeah, and we're not there.

Yeah, we're still getting aspirational.

It's an aspirational goal, but 100 % was it hard for you to.

I mean you you spent how long in boston?

Uh 20 years there packing the cab by the habit.

Yeah nailed it.

You spent 20 years in boston pushing the rock.

Getting the church where you wanted us to be elders well -trained and discipled.

Doing the training and equipping the saints for the work of the ministry and then you move down.

To another church where you're like, okay, let's do the whole rigmarole again.

Is that tough?

Yeah, actually I did it twice because I first went to the middle east.

And pastored a church there for four years.

Then I came in and now i'm doing it Arabic.

Holla at your boy.

Well, where were you over there?

Uh abu dhabi in the united arab emirates four years.

Yeah, four years just the climate was too much for you.

I love the I loved everything about it.

Okay, so you came back.

Yeah, so I was like, I love it so much.

I'm leaving.

Yeah, why'd you leave?

Uh family things our kids going to college, uh parents getting older.

Yeah, and god just raised up a phenomenal replacement for me.

Who was your replacement?

Uh, abri sequera.

Oh.

Yeah, he's a rock star.

Yeah, I know.

No, he literally was.

Who's in a band?

He was in one of the the biggest rock bands in india, really?

Yeah, he was the bass player.

Oh slapping the base.

Yeah, this was back in his like druggy rock days.

I didn't know he had druggy rock days.

Yeah, you would like him.

Well, dude, okay.

All right.

Remind me to bring this back up later.

Okay, because you're blowing my mind right now.

He's so cool.

Okay.

Yeah, that's awesome.

Yeah uh, so.

So but yeah, you did it twice either way.

I mean is that is are you like does that get you going like all right, let's let's rebuild the church again I think um, you

know, I would say the lord I think has called me and and wired me to do it.

I don't like Having to start over.

Because it's it's so much work.

Yeah, just being in a new church and it's hard on a church having a new pastor.

I mean, I feel bad for my church that they have to endure me.

I mean, you know, it's like a new pastor and you got to get used to me and it's just hard.

It's hard with a new pastor new church.

So, why did you leave boston specifically to go to the middle east?

Yeah.

Okay.

Also just tired of boston, right?

Uh tired of the winter for sure, but but I just yeah, it's the worst so but I um, you know what it was.

Uh, so In a weird way every church i've been in i've always had a sense of assignment.

Then i'm like i'm supposed to be here and I get other other opportunities.

Every once in a blue moon in boston i'd be like this is where i'm supposed to be who cares.

And then I just started getting a sense of of releasing in my heart like Something else needs to happen.

I don't know what it is like for the first time in like, you know over a decade I started having this kind of Restlessness

and then this thing happened in abu dhabi and I was like I came home told my wife I'm, like I need to apply for the middle east.

She's like, okay midlife crisis.

She's like go ahead apply.

We'll get out of your system and then we'll be happy in boston the rest of our lives.

And uh massachusetts so then but then I got the job and were you not in boston?

I always just say boston.

Yeah, well, I say boston, too.

Okay, and my wife's from massachusetts.

So she's always like we're not from boston.

I'm like no one knows but it's the south.

Okay.

Take the south shore boston.

If you go halfway between boston and cape cod.

That's where we were south shore.

Wow.

That's really boring.

Yeah.

I knew it was like great radio.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, uh next chapter or we don't know if it's next but another chapter um would be

uh.

Prayer praying for the church.

Yeah.

Yeah elders, you know apostles.

You know you take care of the ministry of the tables.

We'll divide ourselves the ministry of the word in practice chapter six.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Uh, we just did a panel together.

Yes at an event where I embarrassed myself by crying in front of a room full of men.

But basically it was beautiful.

Hey, yeah uh.

Any advice for me brother?

I just I I always struggle with praying as much as I should one.

Let me tell you one thing i've done and then you can give me any any advice.

I've tried to build rhythms of prayer into my life so that whether I feel like it or not I'm gonna be doing it.

So like if we had an elders meeting or.

Or anything like if me and the guys around the office are talking about anything and it doesn't end with a prayer I

think everyone's gonna feel strange about that and that's because i've tried to build a culture there.

Where it's just we're always doing it regardless of whether or not in our hearts.

Like, oh, that sounds bad, but you get what i'm saying.

Trying to wait.

He's like, maybe I do.

I don't know.

I'm like, yeah.

Yeah.

Uh, you know what?

It's like to feel cold to feel distant to feel tired to not feel like praying.

But when you build that rhythm in your life.

You at least are making sure that that muscle doesn't atrophy.

Yeah, you know, yeah.

All right.

That's all i've got to say now i'm rambling you you tell me well I agree I uh, I mean i'm just a

very uh task oriented get it done kind of person.

And so if I don't force myself to do prayer things.

And have prayer segments of my life like I could easily go through weeks just like on Jeremy power

because i'm just like.

Kind of guy so so, you know go for I go for a walk in the morning on the beach I walk my dog.

I take prayer my you know list along and one thing i've.

That's been one of the more fruitful things i've done tying this back into eldering.

Is I just pray on my own for 10 12 15 members of the church a day.

And then I I just take it just takes 15 minutes.

Or so and I just write them a text saying praying for you today and I just list what I prayed for.

And i've actually found that's been one of the most fruitful Ways to pray for the church and just let them know i'm praying for them.

And they'll be like i'm like anything else I can pray for and they'll be like yeah pray for this and so.

It's just a quick thing.

Texting and and you can keep up to date with people and they really appreciate it.

Do you?

Do you do what mark does?

Read the text.

Think what you're gonna pray for then copy and paste it or do you pray something individual for each person.

Something individual sometimes it's the same thing.

Okay.

Uh, it just kind of depends something.

It's just like something on my heart for the church.

So I I you know, yeah, it's not just like hey, here's you know, the fortune cookie I found for prayer.

And I just you know, send it out a hundred times.

It'll be better than that.

You know, you're reading.

Yeah, you know hebrew six.

Yeah, you're gonna drink from the water of you know, the rain of god's word this sunday I pray that you know and then boo

boo boo boo.

You don't do that.

No, no.

Um, yeah, and some unless it's something i'm really burdened for as I think of each person like one of the things I prayed for.

Several people, uh today when I sent it out was just that that they would love God

uppermost today and desire to obey his commands.

Okay, you know and and then you know and i'll and if I know something else about them.

Hey also praying for your son who's Having surgery or whatever and how's gonna pray for you?

Yeah, that's been a really fruitful thing simple 15 minutes.

They feel loved.

Yeah, and they are I love them.

Yeah, that's right.

I love them.

But you know, it's possible for you to love them and for them not to know especially the larger the church gets.

Yeah, so it's and if you're introverted like me, okay.

Um, you you just you know, you have all these things inside, you know, you live inside your head when you're introvert.

Okay, and so you have all these I know i'm telling you what introverts are like, dude I'm, so jealous.

I would kill to be an introvert.

You should I feel like I feel like introversion extroversion is like something's off.

Dude, it is it is.

Okay.

I mean, yeah.

Yeah confirmed.

Okay, like you get to process all your stupid thoughts inside your head.

And i'm just over here like Does that make sense?

No, you're an idiot.

I'm like, no that track.

Okay, but you're a great Host.

Oh, thank you.

Yes, that's good.

Yeah, so so it's really good and and I think that's right I I think one of the things about you know, if you're a pastor who's I mean

there's hope for introverted pastors.

That that you know, but you have to find ways because it's like it's like all in my head like I love these people

like I I stayed for through a hurricane for them.

Like I yeah, i'm i'm literally ready to take a bullet.

Yeah, that's right.

But i'm not always the best at gushing that out, right?

So I have to find ways To make what's in here go out there.

Like for example, when was the last time you told me you loved me, huh?

I wasn't just right before this.

Oh, okay.

All right.

Yeah.

Okay.

Maybe it wasn't.

Yeah, maybe yeah before we move on to the is there a next chapter.

Let's ask about the rings you're wearing.

Uh -huh.

Yeah, these are you just a man jewelry guy?

I I do like you like male jewelry.

Yes, I don't wear a lot.

Do you have a necklace on?

I don't have would you wear a necklace?

It depends.

I might would you wear a man a male bracelet like a gold bracelet?

I have those.

Yes.

Well, here's another thing.

This is like a holdover from Even though you just did that right there.

Like we get it you wear rings, you know, are you italian?

No.

Okay.

Yeah, I uh, Yeah, i'm kind of uh, yeah i'm just sort of a mutt when it comes to fashion things.

Yeah.

Well, I grew up in the southwest.

So I love like native american jewelry.

Oh, dude.

It's so good.

So when we were in albuquerque, yes, you were like, give me a turquoise ring, baby I literally

did.

Literally when I got there I saw a guy with a ponytail and like dream catcher earrings and a turquoise ring.

And I texted all the guys back home and I was like, it's really true and I just made fun of it.

This is you.

I love that stuff.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah, sorry, man.

That's okay.

But I was I guess stuff for my wife and and the other thing great thing about native american jewelry just to go off on it.

Yeah, sure.

It's really nice.

But it's not as expensive as going to whatever and getting a diamond.

Yeah, it looks nice.

Yeah lapis turquoise.

Yeah, wow, okay.

Let's move on before I Go down a dark path.

Yeah I'm trying to bait you.

More interesting.

Yeah, everyone's like this show it got so much better as it went, you know, it's funny.

Sometimes i'll have like these really deep incredible conversations with our guests only rarely with deep guests.

But people are always like hey when you guys started talking about whatever some stupid thing.

That was the best part.

I'm, like, oh, well i'm glad we're doing this then it's a little human interest feature a little a little bit.

So, uh.

Other chapters are there more do we do all eight?

No, i'm trying to remember the other ones offhand it's been a long time since I wrote that I'm reading it

again right now with our elders.

I have a group of um aspiring elders i'm reading it with yeah.

Uh, what do you wish?

Your younger self knew about pastoring.

I mean not not even like before you got into nine marks and all that stuff.

Just you've been pastoring for 20 some odd years even with all the right theology in place.

The lord's probably worked some wisdom into you that even when you had the theological building blocks.

You couldn't really see how to put them together the right way.

So what's some good wisdom for your younger self?

I think when I was younger I was a lot more I had so much more fear of

men.

Okay what people thought of me pleasing people um, and

and so I would I think I was driven a lot to perform.

And do a do a good job because I wanted people to approve that I was doing a good

job and I think over the years god has.

And it's I say continuing to free me from that to be like, hey, listen, I just have to be faithful

and and be faithful to the lord and just trust that.

That the word does the work that the spirit does the work that i'm not the holy spirit.

That i'm not i'm not the messiah, you know, I love john, you know when they come to him and like are you the christ?

He's like I am not and uh.

You know, so just embracing that so so I think over the years i've just chilled out a lot.

In terms of all that that that sort of approach to ministry.

And just kind of god makes you comfortable in your own skin.

You're like this who I am and not as a way of settling for who you are in sin.

But just like accepting that you're limited that I need sleep.

I need to go on vacation.

I can only do so much I have these gifts.

I don't have those gifts.

That's okay to admit that.

And so I think just embracing weakness and limitation.

So that the lord's power can be made perfect in our weakness.

Amen, brother.

What what is the greatest encouragement you see among?

Pastors, I guess in america, but in your network wherever right now the greatest encouragement

and then one of the Discouragements a word of warning or exhortation that you might offer to

no fellow pastors.

I I think when I look at the the younger generation of pastors who are coming up like

they're there's just a lot of them who.

That they just want the word.

They want the real thing.

They're not they don't they can like see through all the marketing.

Yeah, and the glitz stuff.

Yeah, and they're like like they know they're being played to yeah, they're like, yeah.

Yeah, they're trying to make that music sound like whatever and some people are like, oh, that's great.

It's just like the radio but there's a lot of these guys who are like Like give me something real and they're drawn back to.

Some of the the great writers of the past and some of the great traditions.

So I that I find that just immensely encouraging because you know what those those younger and you know.

Younger pastors 20s even the guys who are in their teens now are going to become pastors.

Like they're not going to grow up in a culture.

That's going to be conducive to any kind of nominal faith.

Yeah, like so they're going to have to be fighters.

Yeah, they're gonna have to be ready.

Yeah to stand with no cultural support.

Yeah, and and I think that's that's who's coming up like they're like like we're soft.

And I think the lord's gonna raise up like strong men.

Amen.

We're just gonna stand.

Yeah.

All right discouragement frustration.

Something that you're concerned about um, I I'm always concerned about.

Uh the evangelical church in america losing its nerve over the authority of god's word.

And that's it's the root of so many things.

And I think all these things where we're capitulating into culture because deep down we really don't believe

that this is The word of god almighty and we're not willing to take a stand on it.

So amen brother.

Yep.

All right.

Let's do some rapid fire questions.

Shall we?

Okay.

Uh 9 -11 was the government involved?

Yeah.

Okay, I can't talk about that because they might hear what I said right now that's true tea or coffee coffee

nice, uh, which race is your least favorite.

Uh ultra marathon nice see now you're understanding what we're doing here.

I'm saying it.

Yeah, uh favorite tv show of all time.

No, right now the last five months last five months, of course.

Of all time.

You're like between 89 and 91 february.

Yes.

Uh right now i'm i'm digging shogun.

Okay, uh based off the fantastic book.

Oh, you didn't know that.

No, okay uh.

Dever you listening i'm lock in dude.

It's late.

It's 904.

Uh -huh.

He said devra.

I was like You're like what daddy?

I do hope he he will adopt me one day.

And we got ed on the show to sign adoption papers for me really without him realizing it.

It was like hey sign this stack.

Yeah, and we're not gonna say what it is.

Just trust us.

That's basically the first one.

What do we say they were with luke?

Yeah, I was like this is an nda he was like, all right.

No, they were like there's like another one.

It was like a liability waiver.

Liability documented elder abuse.

Yeah.

You've filmed it and then the third one.

We were like, oh you just signed this too and he signed it and we were like, well.

You're my dad now.

Uh, okay dever Piper keller sproll johnny mack.

We'll throw in kevin de young too.

Why not?

You can only you're on a desert island.

You can only read Uh books from one of those authors for the rest of your life.

Who do you pick?

I'd pick sproul.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Why?

Um.

Historical depth.

Yeah clarity of systematic.

Yeah theology.

Uh, yeah, it's just it's so rich.

Yeah, and you could take his sermons.

Yeah, which have been put into book form.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I mean it's tough.

I pick any of those guys.

They're all they've all been well.

Let's have blessed my soul round two if you could only take one of their preaching with you on an island.

Let's say you have an ipod Loaded up With sermons, but you only get one.

Mm -hmm.

Dever piper keller sproul johnny mack de young um.

Probably de young.

Interesting.

I really appreciate him.

Yeah, he's a very good preacher very good preacher faithful expositor um.

Engaging and I I just have been so helped whenever he decides to weigh into A hot

topic.

Yeah, i'm always like and I have clarity that is where he is the absolute best.

He's ironic best.

You know, I read their little uh, their little in the pews their little uh.

What are they like tithe cards or whatever right which drives me crazy?

Come on guys.

Let's stop calling it.

You probably call it tithe at your church, too um.

Their their motto is I try to avoid tithe good their motto is stand on truth walk in

grace.

That that is kind of the tone he strikes whenever he gets into that's her fuffles about things.

Yeah, it's so helpful.

Did we go to the moon?

Um.

You know again I don't know who's listening.

Yeah, so I don't know if the government's listening.

Yeah, so I can't comment.

Okay.

Yeah.

Uh, if you had to pick a dictator to live under yes pole pot gg ping stalin mao or hitler.

If I had to choose yeah.

Oh gosh.

Uh, I I don't really I mean when I was in abu dhabi, I

lived under um a monarch.

Yeah, and it was great I think it was wonderful.

I think I would have chosen hitler.

Uh -huh.

I'll tell you why.

Room for a new one.

Listen you gotta live on nuance.

You gotta live under one of them, right?

Do I that's this is the thought experience?

Okay.

Okay, you gotta live under one of them I mean for about five years with hitler.

You're just like riding high.

You're like we're doing this.

Come on, we're crushing it and then listen the fall is so fast.

You don't even know what happens.

And then afterwards because after the treaty of airsai world war one.

Oh world war two happened because they treated germany so harshly that they had to do that.

So now they're a little bit more lenient.

So the repercussions.

Anyways, that's why do you have a screenshot of like the the board with all the strings and the yarn?

I would love to see that I I do and i'll send it to you.

He's like i've worked this out.

Yes, but mine is uh is.

Uh, actually that'll lead me to my next question.

Mine.

I would say mine is dispensationalism uh dispen.

Dispensationalism all millennialism preterism partial preterism where you land.

Um, I I would say I believe in inaugurated eschatology that all the old testament

prophecies have been have begun to be fulfilled in christ.

And we'll reach their conclusion when he returns.

Well, that's a non -answer.

Yeah, uh favorite fiction.

Uh fantasy, of course, yeah like fifty shades of gray, uh, not so much.

Okay.

What are you what are you talking about?

Uh, you know anything like, you know, the lord of the rings dragons and warriors and.

And quests and have you done red rising?

Uh, yeah, I read I read the first three books red rising you liked them.

It was good.

It was good.

It's not great though.

Greg gilbert.

I didn't want to read the next three.

Let's just say that I was like i've finished the first three and I was like, okay, that's done pretty brutal.

But if you had to choose c .s lewis.

All of his corpus or tolkien all of his corpus.

You can only have one.

What do you pick?

Um.

Corpus is latin for body.

Do tell uh, I would say I mean for the edification of my soul c .s lewis.

For my pleasure and enjoyment.

You don't get to do that.

You get to pick one c .s lewis.

Okay.

Uh, c .s lewis has all kinds of genres too.

That's true.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you know what the hottest letter in the alphabet is?

B you know why it turns oil to boil.

Did I already tell you that?

Uh -huh.

Dang it, man.

Yes.

Uh mountains or beach uh.

Probably beach you live there.

So I hope so.

Yeah, I do love my favorite book outside of the bible favorite book outside of the bible.

Oh um like.

Favorite in what category like?

No nuance none no room.

I love arnold dallimore's two volume.

Biography of george whitfield.

Yeah, like that like changed my life.

Love that.

Nice.

Okay, uh champagne or wine I mean

champagne's not even really a thing.

It's just.

Yeah, I don't know.

What do you mean by that?

It's just not there's no substance to it.

Okay, so wine yeah, okay you drink Android or

iphone iphone, okay macaroni salad or potato salad.

Well, they're both so horrific.

Really?

Yeah, you can choose egg salad if you want.

Yeah egg salad.

There you go egg salad.

Okay.

All right night out or night in uh night in.

Yeah favorite movie um.

Probably return of the king.

That's uh lord of the rings.

That's the third one.

Yeah, although I just saw the second dune and it was ridiculous.

Let's talk more about that.

I feel like it was bloated.

Really?

I loved one, but we'll talk more about it.

Yeah, one was tighter.

Yeah, that's right, uh concert or football game concert.

Favorite band.

I really like I mean influential on me as a kid petra.

Oh, okay best to write sermons to daft punk.

What?

Wow, okay.

Morning you too, huh you too.

Really?

I love um, and I love r .e .m.

Even though they're so utterly not christians.

Yeah, but they just have incredible harmonies melodies.

Okay, and this you know, that's what I grew up with morning person or night out.

I don't know man.

I gotta work.

So it's like I feel like i've just been turned into a morning person.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Burger king or mcdonald's.

You're not a fast food guy.

Yeah, okay.

Uh mexican or italian?

Oh mexican for sure for sure for sure for sure.

Barbecue or burger barbecue.

Uh french fry or onion ring french fry.

Chinese takeout and not the good kind.

Okay, like you're gonna punish yourself.

Yeah.

Yeah, you might get paid.

I'm gonna pay you're gonna pay for this chinese takeout or sushi chinese.

See, I when I thought I love sushi, but I don't want to have bad sushi.

Yeah.

Because chinese takeout is bad.

It's like oh that was bad chinese other one.

You're like you're in the emergency room getting your stomach pumped.

Yeah, I had a buddy who ate sushi from kroger once and I was like, hey, yeah life's too short.

Don't do that to yourself.

That's risky brother uh rock or rap.

Obviously rock.

Yeah classical or jazz classical.

Trapped on an island with one systematic theology for the rest of your life.

Which one do you choose?

That's great um, ligand duncan said slappy von schmeier

locker or something like that.

Um.

Oh, geez, that's a really Tough one.

And I love burkoff.

I love um i'm spacing on

names.

He's like he's like what even is this um.

Yeah.

Reform dogmatics.

Okay.

Yeah by boving.

There we go.

He's so hot right now.

Yeah.

He's just his writing is almost like devotional.

It's so good.

Yeah.

Did you read that in seminary or are you just reading it as of late bits?

I haven't read it cover to cover.

I would love to.

Yeah, okay.

Wonderful works of god is a good intro to a lot of yeah.

If you had to do apologetics with one cult.

Or just any false religion mormonism jehovah's witness uh islam.

Hinduism which what do you think would be the most interesting one for you to engage in?

I think a really hard one is hinduism.

Yeah.

Like if I was gonna have to go at one, yeah, because hinduism no matter no matter what you say, they're like cool.

Yeah, you can park that right over here.

Right?

Yeah, great add that over there.

It's very hard.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think also like shintoism which uh buddhism and shintoism are kind of from the

same tree.

I know that shintoism is more japan, but buddhism was very deeply rooted in in medieval japan

uh in feudal japan.

Uh, what's so difficult about that is that even when you go to use the language of god conceptually that doesn't mean the same thing

To them so you have to like construct Yes an idea first.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Anyways takes a lot of words to come up with god.

Yes versus like islam.

Where you're like allah and you're you're at least in the same neighborhood.

Yeah, that's right.

I mean i'm not I don't think I don't think the god of islam is the god of Abraham isaac and jacob, but You know

at least you're like monotheistic.

All creator all powerful.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What hymn do you want to be sung at your funeral and can I mean is it as well of my soul?

One piece like a river because well for Which reason that's my favorite song of all time.

How could it not be that he will hold me fast.

Yeah, but what you know, is that when you sing that at your funeral?

Yeah, if there are christians there.

They're gonna crank it.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, they're gonna let it rip.

Yeah.

Our church knows that like it doesn't matter if the guitarist has like or the piano player has like an aneurysm.

And falls on the ground like when he will hold me fast comes on.

We're doing it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, when peace like a river, I mean like almost like you can just send all the instrumentals out for a

coffee break.

And like we're just gonna rock this I almost wonder if it wouldn't even be better.

I mean, I guess a light piano accompaniment, but When a congregation is well trained when they believe in that song,

especially if it's like a response song to a strong gospel sermon.

Just let the people do their thing.

Yeah, you know, yeah, they want they want to yell.

Yeah and let them right.

What are you reading right now?

Uh in terms of what.

Take that direction and take that question any direction you want to um for Theology actually i'm just I just

picked up uh, matt marker's new book in the name mark series on corporate worship.

Very good super excited.

Not that new.

Yeah, isn't no new to me.

Okay, so I just got a hold of that.

Yeah, um, and then uh, i've always wanted to read Um the

the book we just got free today it's getting late on liberalism.

What's his name machen?

Yeah.

Christianity and liberalism.

That's it.

Come on, dude.

Okay, so he has the best analogy in there for false.

Yeah, i've been wanting to read it's like one of those books i'm like, oh, I can't wait to read that and then I get like Squirrel, but I mean like even that's

what like for 50 years now.

Yeah.

Okay.

I have a lot of things like that in my life and then um for pleasure reading I'm reading

through terry pratchett's disc world series.

Yeah, there's like 42 of them.

I see it sounds like a good place for us to end the.

In the interview.

Uh, brother, this has been great.

It's been fun.

It's been informative.

I I bet our our viewers all.

There are dozens of us dozens of us.

Okay watching watching this right now, so This will be good for them.

No, seriously.

This was good.

I hope it'll be helpful for yeah Pastors and for church members alike if you're watching this or listening to this and you're like,

oh, I don't think that's happening at my church.

Yeah.

We would encourage you to try to find a church where your soul can be shepherded.

Look on the nine marks church search directory find somewhere where shepherds who love you and more importantly love god in his word.

Will care for your soul.

Uh, like it's their job.

Let's pray Lord, thank you so much for my brother.

Thank you for the Decades of experience that you've given him through many trials and tribulations, but also

through much joy, deep joy.

The joy that can only be known in christian service.

We pray that you'll continue to bless him as he goes back.

Uh to the island to to build that church back up there still in the aftermath of such a

tragedy.

We pray that you'll give him an abundance of the fruits of the spirit.

As your spirit works powerfully in his life to lead your people.

And lord, we we pray that this episode will will do exactly what you want it to do that it will

benefit the elect and that it will Glorify your name.

We pray this in your name.

Amen.