The Church Elders Interview | Jeramie Rinne

We're back with another episode of the room for nuance podcast My name is

Sean DeMars. Your name is Jeremy Rennie. Jeremy. Will you open us up in prayer? I would love to okay

Heavenly Father we love you so much because you've chosen us for the foundation of the world.

Thank you for sending your son To die for us to rise again We thank you for sending the

Holy Spirit to give us the new birth and to give us faith and so Lord we just recognize we're all in your hands that our salvation is from you and through you and to you and Lord, we thank you for your church

I thank you for Christians and churches and elders and pastors serving all over the world and they

God you're getting your great kingdom work done through this ragtag band of redeemed sinners

Thanks Lord for this conversation Thanks for Sean's ministry and pray that you would cause the words we speak to each other to be helpful to anyone who listens in Christ's name

Amen You've been called the Jimmy Buffett of the nine marks world.

I did not Something interesting from your prayer just now.

Yeah, you said this ragtag. Yeah Would you say ragtag?

Yeah something. Yeah, we get that like a ragtap team. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I Feel that more than ever.

I've been feeling that more than ever lately Jesus brings up brings a whole bunch of screw -ups together and uses us

Yeah, is that something that you just kind of threw out there subconsciously or like it? Have you been meditating on that?

um, I yeah, so I did just throw it out there as I was thinking but I think it's just my experience of 27 years of ministry is yeah,

I'm always working with a ragtag bunch of people Yeah, and I'm like chief ragtag among.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I see the shirt you're wearing So the title of this episode is going probably gonna be like the eldering episode

Okay, but before we get into that, yeah, can you tell us your testimony how you came to know the

Lord sure my mother brought us to church and Not father not father.

He came to Christ a little later, but my mom was wanting to get us into a church so she took us a little

Baptist Church, I grew up in Las Vegas, Nevada just outside and Little little

Baptist Church in our town and so they preached the gospel and I heard the gospel in Vacation Bible School and youth group and they didn't alter call every

Sunday and And it was just one of those things where as the pastor priest as he shared the gospel every

Sunday preached exposition Lee I just started to feel that conviction and that that sense of What I would call it is summons.

I felt like the Lord is summoning me to follow him and And so I just repented and believed and it was kind of not remarkable

I think I later went down for an altar call, but I think I was already saved at that point but Yeah, and and so I just grew up in a church where it's just kind of mean potatoes teaching the

Bible I grew up under expositional preaching in my faith. So I just assume that was what you did So when

I eventually became a pastor, that's all I really knew and And so I grew up in that church was discipled in that church and then from there went to Wheaton College From undergraduate, okay, and then

Yeah, then Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary from my grad school and what what years was that that was

I graduated from Wheaton in 93 And Gordon Conwell in 96. So you had

David Wells and David Wells Nicole Yeah, I'd missed Roger Nicole had Greg Beal okay nice for a lot which was great

Haddon Robinson's wonderful homiletics teacher Yeah, all right. And then so walk

Meredith Klein for biblical theology. Yeah, I didn't even know what I was sitting under Yeah, and then later

I was like wait, I was like with the Yoda of the biblical theology world Yeah, you were like biblical theology, right guys.

Yeah, like we all get this right and I realize yeah. Yeah, okay But walk us from you get saved to the path

Like the path to becoming a pastor. Did your youth pastor say like, oh you've got to call

How did you get there I I just had a great like you should be making margaritas somewhere, you know, so Yeah, no comment

I yeah, so I In high school was just excited about the

Word of God is excited about ministry teaching vacation Bible school teaching You know going on short -term mission trips.

Well, I really wanted to do more with mission So between my junior and senior of high school,

I spent two months Taiwan doing a short -term mission Basically, we did these teach

English as a second language classes not like any formal trained sense just more like hey Here's Americans hang out with them and talk

English, but we do it in the church. Then we build relationships and show the gospel but after the end of that I just had a

Sense of a desire to give my life to serve the Lord in whatever that meant

So we're doing a debrief at the end of our mission trip. All these different teams came back and reassembled

And and I was sitting by a lake one night under the stars and I was just like Lord like, you know

I enlist I'm in I'm like, I don't know what that means. I don't know if I'm gonna go to mission field I don't know if I'm gonna be a pastor.

I don't know what that means. But like take my life I want to serve you and so that was kind of the crossing the

Rubicon for me and then from there Getting into the pastoral ministry is more like a dimmer switch slowly turning on over a multiple year period.

Yeah Well, when did you when did the light officially become on like really like when was the room well lit?

I think it was It was when I finally

Got to seminary and then started getting involved in a local church in Massachusetts Which ended up being the church.

I became the senior pastor of okay, but at that time I was just an intern and No, that was

Yeah, this one was from like 1940 years. Okay, so then yeah, so I I just started getting involved in pastoral ministry and then and Finally, I got my first job there as an assistant and that's kind of when it started clicking like oh,

I like this I you know, this is it. It's pastoral work. So it wasn't like you saw the the pastor and thought oh

I want to do that. Yeah, it was almost like there was a need you were happy to meet it And then as you were doing that you were like, oh, this is actually great

Yeah, and and kind of like the Lord was I think I just had a broader Field of view of what

I could do but the Lord kept just kind of closing it and it was like, you know mission field

No Just certain things happen things we pursued kept getting blocked and then other things started getting blocked until finally

I was in pastoral ministry and I was like, yes, you know This is where I'm going and it just kind of like one thing led to another.

Yeah. Yeah. Did you ever think about? Going into like academia or anything like that Once I became a senior pastor

There was a period where I started toying with should I go back and get a

PhD? yeah, maybe church history or something and I remember I was just praying about it one day walking and And asking the

Lord like Lord, what you know, what do you want me to do? And and I love studying the Great Awakening I love studying these these periods where there's great preaching and people are coming to faith and and I just have this sense of like, you know

You could study that or you could just do it You could be the preacher not, you know that I'm George Whitefield or somebody but just like I could preach the word

Why not? Why not actually just do it and let someone else study the history of it. Yeah And then you said

I am the best pastor And I know all the things that's ragtag pastor.

Yes And so what I'm gonna do is take it upon myself to write the manual For eldering and you did it

Wow. Yeah. Yeah, almost like that just a little bit. All right. Tell us your version

Okay, my version that's the version that I'm gonna tell but you tell your fair enough. Okay, my version was

Talking to Jonathan Lehman How did you guys know each other? We knew each other through nine marks.

So I did you know about nine marks? I was going okay, so I've been in the church seven years pastoring the church number of completion.

It is the number of completion It's also the number of sabbatical So and the church was growing.

I was very pragmatic in my approach to the local church but I was doing exposition and I was wrestling with yeah, like every axe 29

Church Yes, I was preaching the word consecutively exposition and But I was just kind of like well, hey, let's try that saddleback.

Okay, let's try that and let's try this and oh I heard about that kind of thing approach to philosophy ministry and I was wrestling with it and the church was was growing numerically

Then it's getting that sense of like momentum and energy So then it was seven years in it and I was like,

I told the elders. I was like, I like a sabbatical I said I want to Figure out the model for our church and that was the language those category head.

I'm like I want the model so this was my sabbatical dude, I Went all summer to different churches every week to check out the model

And I went like all over the country. I went and visited any friends I had and I checked out different churches Yeah, you go on.

Yeah, tell us the worst one What was the worst one

Saddleback freaked me out. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it was I know it was the worst but I definitely had like a strong Reaction I've heard the children's ministry there has like a

Noah's Ark thing where which is rad it floods. No, it's rad. Yeah refills Really?

Yeah, like it's like every 15 minutes. There's I mean, they don't have like the people die I was gonna say like other drowning people not no dead bodies.

Everyone's in the art You went around you visited and eventually what you made it you tried

CHBC so so here's what happened I was planning this this nomadic pragmatic thing and I got my

Gordon Conwell alumni magazine there's this article in there by Michael Lawrence who I'd gone to seminary with a

Gordon Conwell and He was at CHBC Capitol Baptist. So and he had he had an article there about a sermon application grid and I was like Oh, that's cool.

I like that and then at the bottom It's like he's with nine marks ministries and I was like, what's that? And so the internet had like just been invented.

So I I Went on and I googled or whatever.

It was back then nine marks and I found the website you put in the CD for a well Okay, yeah, that's right and you probably use

Yahoo search And I just look and I started clicking through the website and all the nine marks and I was like wait

This is the mod the model that I keep seeing in the Bible and I was like wait, you can actually just How old are you at this point?

I would be 34 okay, and and so I I saw a weekender so I clicked on it and I and so the beginning of my

This journey I went on started with the CHBC weekender and I went to it and it was you know

It's like I was born again. And then when I found reformed theology, I was born again again And when

I found biblical theology, I was born again again, and then this was born again again again I was just like this is look

They're actually just doing trying to follow the Bible for church And then I spent the rest of the summer going to all these other churches going

No No, but now I knew why because I was like wait this isn't you know

So it was like the whole thing came together like a thunderclap. It was the first time I saw You know went to a church where the pastor had been recorded and he showed it on a screen and I was like no

You know, no and I knew why no and not that God isn't doing good things in all those other churches But I was just I knew that like this is the model

I had found was that I could just follow the the New Testament So it was really it was amazing so then

I came back and I did a sabbatical report for my church and I Was like we have I'm like, this is what

God's given me from the sabbatical and I just put one word up on the screen It just said Reformation. I'm like we need to help our church follow the

Scripture Wherever God has spoken about the church in the Scriptures. How was that received? I Think people were a little bit shocked, but then again

Like for me, how can you argue with if it's just in the Bible? So like, you know elders It's like once you put the elder glasses on you're like, oh, it's everywhere

So then you can't unsee it. And so it's like as long as it's in the Bible then like why would why wouldn't we listen to?

What Jesus has to say about his church? How many members did you have at that time? More or less

I Would be maybe 400 Okay. Yeah, that's a big ship to turn.

I mean not the biggest. Yeah, not the how many elders did you have? There was like maybe 10 or 12.

So they had elders and so you were elders and congregational You weren't like deacon run or anything like that elder. Yeah elder led congregational.

Okay Was it did you present it to your elders first or to the whole congregation? I think it just I just came back just a big report

Okay Yeah and so you began to implement that how quickly over the next 10 years.

Oh Okay, so you were like we need to change but it's while you're not gonna blow everything up. I didn't blow everything up I just slowly turn the ship.

I mean, you know, this is New England in New England You know, like, you know, you know how many

New Englanders it takes change the light bulb, right? How many change, right? They're just like really change suspicious.

They're really slow You know The British are still coming one of my land to if I see and so like people are really cautious about change

So then you just have to slowly plant seeds talk about things and then slowly turn the ship and and build consent

It's actually healthy. You have to build consensus and you have to show people it's not just like hey, listen to me I'm the pastor.

You have to be like this is why here's what the Bible says. Hey think about it and then slowly But surely they get it.

Well, then I just have a question to ask. Yeah. Did you know that all answer females all answer females? Yeah, you didn't know that Yeah, I can prove it to you.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So if they were males, they'd be called uncles Your dad joke game is on point.

Yes. Well, let me ask you this. What's the hottest letter in the alphabet? B Because it turns the oil into boil, baby

Back to church revitalization you go back you say Reformation. You got a 10 -year plan.

What's the first thing you change? I I don't remember.

I think the first thing I started doing with the elders was just Shifting from I mean we had elders, but they were more of a board of directors model more of a trustees model and And sort of like hey, how do we all learn as a team to start shepherding?

And other changes came out of that. I think a burden for training up pastors So we eventually started pastoral apprenticeship program a burden for more of a culture of discipleship in the church

Versus just kind of lots of programs lots of activity. So being in general I think when you really start looking at scripture and you start asking the question, what does the

Bible say it? It just puts you your footing your weight in a more intentional direction and an intentionality about Critically thinking about things as opposed to just hey how many people came a lot.

It was good, right? Right. What was the biggest change you made like this? Here's a pragmatic thing that we we got rid of in light of this

Change of mindset. I think one of the big things we eventually took a while was

Once we had room moving to one worship service. Oh you were doing too. Yeah, we're doing small building

New England. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, but but even before that and then and we built a new space so then we could all fit in it

So that that was the change there So you ended up writing the book because through that whole process you met

Jonathan Lehman. Yes Okay, well, you just had like a conference for scholars. Uh, no He may have been

I wasn't yeah, I was no but I did I I knew him through because I went to that weekend

There I started meeting some people at Capitol Hill Baptist and I remember we'd gone to something together and we're in the airport

Leaving and so I'm just sitting there with him for 15 -20 minutes and he's like and I think I'd written a couple articles for them

And he's like Jeremy never thought about a book. And so I was like, no, it's a pretty decent micro impression.

It's pretty good Yeah, I mean that CHBC guys are good. They're easy. Yeah. Yeah, so anyway, so I was like I was like, yeah

I was like not really He's like you should think about a book and I was like on what like I have no

I've never had an aspiration to be An author of anything like I can like I can wear these shirts.

Yeah, sure Yeah, you want me to write a book about shirts cuz I'll do that. Yeah, right. Yeah, that's right. That's vacation shirts

Yeah, and so so we kind of were like were you wearing those in Boston or no? Yeah. No, no, this is a

Florida thing This is contextualization That may or may not be the last time

I make fun of your outfit it's for the rest of the interview, it's okay Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's fine. It's yeah,

I love it I mean I got to Florida and and this is what like dude They'd literally dress like this shorts and these kind of shirts in church.

So I'm like great It's like this how I go to elders meetings. Yeah, if you were a blazer it would they wouldn't even be able to hear the

Gospel. Yeah. Yeah, no, they would be like, why are you wearing? That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very laid -back culture

So he says why don't you in a book? Yeah, and I was like why yeah, and blah blah blah

So then and then he's like, what would you write on it? I had a couple ideas I was like I could write about elders and he's like, well, what would you write?

And I was like, well, I said, you know the thing I feel like my guys need is just a very

User -friendly kind of field manual for how to be an elder and we use stroke before that He wrote a book on elders, which is better than the book.

I wrote but it's just thicker and it's more complex So when I was getting it's not really congregational,

I think he comes from another rural background. Yeah, that's right So he and and and when

I would give it to my elders, I back aren't ready to read this chapter I'm gonna read this or this so so I was like, okay My guys just need something simpler that I could just hand them and say hey

This is what being an elder is and and it's something that I knew they're like, oh I can actually do that As much as you want all your readers.

I mean all your elders to be like super big readers Like they're dudes and they're working busy jobs and whatever so so that sounds like I could do that and he's like well let's think about that and like literally in 15 minutes we had all the chapters nailed down.

I was like we could write about that that and that he's like, okay Okay, you scratch it. He's like, there you go. There's your book And then

I I looked at it and I was like actually can I mean anyone could write any pastor who has elders? Could have written on that.

Yeah, and so I just was like, okay, I guess I'm the one that's gonna do it so I did it and And so yeah, that's how that was birthed.

I've come to realize once I've peeked behind the curtain of Book publishing that editors write more of the books and the author sometimes

Don't be modest or non modest. What would you like? How much of your book made it through the?

to the final it it's it's mostly mine what I would say though is

The the editor did it and it was like when you like make a piece of pottery then you glaze it and you come out and And you look at you're like dang that looks amazing

That's what the editor did like after he wrote it I he made me sound a lot smarter than I really am

So a good at like they always say a good editor really makes a book. It's so true. Yeah, very good editor Yeah.

All right. So let's walk through the book. Yeah, I Don't have a copy So you walk us through your book chapter one, here we go, okay

So I framed eight chapters around things That are part of the elders job description.

So chapter one is don't assume That means don't just assume you're an elder. In other words, it's look at the elder qualifications in Scripture Okay, and and let's so it's kind of like a slowdown

Let's look at this. Yeah, should you be an elder? Yeah The second is smell like sheep.

Okay. Well, let's let's stop on number one. Okay, don't assume What was the idea behind that was were you seeing guys who were just too gung -ho or who thought that it was?

I? think In my own context there would often be a kind of like well that guy's been here a while Uh -huh, and he's a good guy.

Yeah, and he may have been or may not have been but it Maybe he didn't meet the qualifications.

I think I tell the story in the book of this one guy This bro is like uber servant.

He does everything in the church He was it's just a godly man, but he has no desire to teach

The last thing he'd ever want to do is lead a Bible study group. He doesn't know any that he's like It's not my thing.

And so I'm like well You can't be an elder because you have to be apt to teach in some way not that I doubted his theology

Did he want to be an elder? He didn't want to be an elder people wanted him to be another yeah, his name kept coming up because they're like He's so good and I'm like, yeah, but that and so and I also think just sort of this idea that like elders

You know you kind of get up to senior management if you've been in the company long enough and And I'm like we got to stop putting a value statement on elders over deacons or that over anything else

Like this is an office. He sounds like the perfect deacon. Oh, he's like super deacon

Yeah, he's oozes deacon and it would have it would have been bad for him and for the church for him not to be doing

His deacon things. Yeah, that's good Have you ever found the opposite young guys who feel like they are entitled like I'm like I'm getting it and I'm gonna be another

Yeah That's you know, that's that's the other side of you know, you aspire to be an elder

So there has to be that inward desire, but it has to have the external confirmation, right?

You gotta have other people being like, yeah, we see it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Chapter number two

It's called smell like sheep. Mmm, and that's more our guys use that phrase all the time, by the way, really?

Yeah, it's it's such a powerful illustration. It just it's it's part of our culture now. We use that language. So thank you for that Yeah, and actually interestingly

So Beatty wrote a book on elders and deacons and he wrote about smelling like sheep

No, I think he wrote an article and so I was already had like right written the the chapter and then he's the same language

Yeah, I was like, oh bro. Can I use this Mike? I didn't get it from you, but I was like, yeah So anyway, okay, so I think maybe he like got it and then like beamed it to me or something.

Okay, right? Yeah, but anyway, yeah, but it's and really the idea is it's it's not so much like well

I guess it is a task, but it's just more conceiving of the elder job as being among the people and Because I think a lot of our guys and a lot of elders just generally they think being an elder is showing up at the meeting and Voting on stuff and that's you know, you've done your job if you showed at the meeting once a month and voted on stuff

Right. So to give a real -life example of what it looks like to elder at our elders meeting

We go through the membership directory have conversations and if there's like more than one meeting where as we're working through the directory a particular elders like I Don't know, you know, like I don't know what's going on with anybody

What are you doing like the meeting is where we get together to like collectively focus on Things that we should have already been doing independently with members of the church.

We should already be active be in there Yeah, and even when you're looking for elders I think it's really important to be looking for guys who are already doing that stuff in the church

So you're like, hey, look at that community group leader or look at that guy. He's always like tracking people down So I had a guy a church planner who actually ended up planning a church

I won't tell you about how that went, but he planted a church Who told me bro?

I just don't like people Wow How is it possible that he made it through like church planning cohorts and all this stuff and planted a church

And it never came out or maybe it did come out and somebody didn't care but he was like, yeah, not just introverted

But yeah, I don't just don't like people. Yeah, because you're gonna be introverted extroverted. Yeah problematic. Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

It's a non -starter Yeah So basically you should smell like the sheep

That means that you should be around the sheep so much that like you think about first Peter, right?

Like yeah shepherd the flock of God that is among among you. Yeah, you're not distant from them.

You're not above them You are with them. You're with just like an actual shepherd. Yeah. Yeah, that's the job. It's a it's a hands -on job so when

I Have a little bit of BO. That's just what I tell people I'm a shepherd about me.

It's not people. I'm with it's God's calling on my life. I'm a little funky smell the call Note that one.

I'm not kidding Luke's literally right down I'm over you write that down Number three.

Yes Number three is teach the word. Okay So yeah being able to teach

So you have to be able to get up in a pulpit like preach like Spurgeon Almost okay.

No, actually not. You have to be able to hold the sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it so and what

I tell our elders is is Instructing people in sound doctrine and holding sound doctrine can take place in a lot of different venues

It can take place in a pulpit. It can take place in a Sunday school class You can lead a community group

You might just be someone who sits down over coffee and does one -to -one Bible reading with someone. So so it's it's not a gift of Oratorical brilliance.

It's the ability to hold the sound doctrine and instruct and encourage people in it In any group of people any kind of organization from the

Navy SEALs to local church pastors There's gonna be a bell curve You're gonna have the best and the brightest and you're gonna have the guys who are like, oh you're a

Navy SEAL Like, how did you yeah, but like he made it. Yeah somehow. Yeah, would you say I mean, I think that's true of elders

Yeah, you're gonna have like your standout when it's apt to teach you point to this guy and you say like him

Then you have other guys where some people might go Huh? Yeah, but like, you know, you've seen him lead his family and devotion

Oh, yeah, you know that he's doing one -on -one discipleship with guys and he's probably even when he teaches a

Sunday school It's probably not fantastic, but it's faithful if there's a doctrinal issue that comes up in the church

You know, he's gonna You know make the right decisions He's gonna read even if he has to spend more time reading and writing than other guys do he's gonna get there

So is that fair to think about? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I just think maybe the way to have categorized that is is different amounts of gifting

So, you know eight eight people can have a gift of teaching but one person could be like a ridiculous teacher and another guy can be faithful and Maybe he's not gonna ever be invited to speak at some huge conference, but like man that bros an elder

Yeah, yeah, and I think and I think it's true in my kind of all the different gifting gifts and we really

I mean We just put a premium on gifting in our culture like a bit amount of gifting more than the scripture does

I agree? Yeah chapter number four Okay, I forget the order at this point.

Yeah Some of the other chapters are lead together. So plurality. Okay, so we talked about that that it's

Something where the Lord brings together a plurality of elders to your point if you think about the duties an elder has

Some elders are gonna be stronger in some of those duties and others hence the value of plurality

So like I've had some elders who are really good teachers good doctrinal students. They're just theologically sharp.

I've had others who are Like have like compassion coming out their ears and you need those guys

And then I've had others who are just like crazy good leaders. They're able to see a situation You know that they can get to the heart of it and they have the courage to be like guys

We must do this and and if you don't have all of those kind of Leanings operating fully like you're just gonna be imbalanced as an elder team.

I'm thinking about my four elders We have another one who's on sabbatical Shane high school principal

Administratively really helpful. There was an administrative question that we had in an email exchange

With one email with one sentence in one email he clarified the issue caused us to go in the other direction

Then we have Russell. He is the evangelism Apologetics guy like the logical like a computer.

Yes But not the most get to the heart preacher or teacher guy.

Then we have will assistant pastor Obviously coming into his own as a counselor the best listener

Supremely patient asks all the right questions has a heart to see that developed in the church and then you have me

Not nothing You see all those different giftings. Yes Coming together.

Yeah. Yeah, beautiful beautiful the way that the Lord has designed multiple elders to work together in the church is

Truly a mosaic one of the things I enjoy honestly is whenever we have new elders rotate on is

It's a little bit like Christmas where I'm like, I wonder what what's your thing is gonna be

What they're gonna be and you kind of like fun They're like it's sort of like a movie where you know, they bring like the 12 guys together, you know

Ocean's 12 or whatever ocean 11. Yeah, and you know like you're gonna have skills and you're like, okay That's the hacker guy and that's this guy and except knowing that you know

Like Paul says to the elders in Acts 20 like, you know shepherd the flock God of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseer

So that sense that the Holy Spirit Lord willing has appointed these

These men and so it's like what things is the Holy Spirit put in on the table and what?

Providentially is coming down the road in the next few years. Well, we're gonna be like, oh, that's why you're here Yes, and that happens.

Yeah, and it's so cool. It is so cool. Yeah. Yeah Have you ever just while we're on the subject new elder?

First of all, you got to give him time Yeah, you can't be like, okay new elder. This is your thing I mean you can do that if there's a need obviously go to meet the need but there's a sense in which you got to Give guys a little bit of wiggle room to figure out where they are particularly gifted, right?

Yeah. Yeah, that's right I remember Garrett Kell when he first went on staff at CHBC went to mark and said like What am

I doing here and Mark was like if you're really a pastor you'll figure it out, you know

He did he wasn't assigned something. He was like, well, my schedule was not full And he's like if you're really a pastor your schedule will fill up and you will find out soon enough where people are

Really bearing well like where fruit is being born in light of your ministry. I thought that was really wise I know that it's not always that easy.

Yeah, you know big church big staff a little bit more wiggle room, but yeah I was gonna ask you something else.

Oh, okay. Yeah. Have you appointed an elder that you regret it? Not Regretting like the non -christian sense obviously got a sovereign we're like, yeah wasn't a right fit.

Yeah. Yeah and Where you just think

Yeah, or you didn't see something about them or you saw a weakness like we all have but you didn't realize it would become

Oh this big. Yeah and and those those are times I you know where you just have to I don't know you have a challenge.

Yeah, and you have to work through it and bear with one another in love How long have you been a pastor? 27 years you think you'll probably retire as a pastor.

Yeah, most likely. So let's just say nice round number You spent 40 years pastoring and hopefully

Most of that time raising up other men To lead. Yeah the odds of you not getting you know, something wrong is zero

Yeah, you know like yeah. Yeah. I mean the wisest among us Yeah have appointed guys and they get they get flack.

Like how could how could you have made that mistake? Oh, well, you he's not God you see He's not omniscient.

You know, we do the best we can we look at the character qualifications. That's right We look at a person's life. We are not quick to lay hands.

That's right, right And so we do our best in the same way that we do that with baptism and membership

Hiring staff hiring. So yeah, it's like it's it's hard. Yeah. Yeah, we're doing the best we can with what we got

What we got ain't much no what we got is a lot that's right spirits help We got the scriptures. Yeah caught myself there

But it is it's back to the ragtag thing Lord uses just these clay vessels, you know and these imperfect people

But by his grace, you know, you know in our weakness his strength is made perfect.

So I think that's That's what he does Do the do it's cool

Have you read team of rivals? No, what is this? Who's it by?

Luke you don't know you don't know how to read. It's about sports. No Dorothy You got a

Luke Wizard of Oz team of rivals this is about Luke in Lincoln's cabinet. Oh interesting.

Oh, I've heard about yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So fantastic. I can't remember the name of the oh, yeah Yeah, that's I did smoke a lot of crystal meth when

I was younger. So my brains not really Yeah, Doris Kearns Goodwin team of rivals team of rivals and I was reading that book

It's all about how Lincoln managed to hold together this coalition of people that should not have held together

But he saw it as integral to make to make it through the war yeah to keep this group together because this person had this strength and this person had this strength and this and Like we need all of them here together in this crucial moment.

And as I was Working through that book. I just kept thinking this is such a good common grace example of Jesus with his disciples and of every pastor working with with elders and in his ministry

Just Jesus brought together people that should not have been together You got the zealot and you got the tax collector, but they all followed him and he was able to wisely lead them

Yeah, there were some kerfuffles Along the way, but he managed it, you know in fact

I would say it's in those moments where you you start running into either personality conflicts or bad fits or something

Where where you or just like challenges with working with elders that you really are tested

Do I really believe that plurality of elder leadership is

Jesus's plan for the church? And do I really trust that God works through it and and there's times where you're like, yeah, it's so beautiful It's rocking and there's other times you're like that.

I think it'd be more efficient if I just made all the decisions but I Trust that this is

Jesus's plan for Jesus's church. I'm so glad you said that There are so many times in pastoral ministry

Where I go, I think it would just be easier if we did X Whether it's plurality. I mean think about meaningful membership and discipline

Think about how much easier in in one sense in the worst sense from the eternal perspective.

Yeah. Yeah, but from a perspective from an efficiency from an Yeah, so -called efficiency so -called efficiency.

Imagine how much easier would be if you didn't practice meaningful church membership. Yeah, it would be a breeze

Maybe so, you know, they come in they go out somebody leaves you go. Yeah, you know Numbers are up numbers are up.

Yeah, we're doing good There's a somebody's not showing up for church for a year and rather than bringing it before the church and saying like hey

We're gonna discipline this person. You just go. Yeah, they're not here. Take them off the roll. Yeah Yeah, okay next chapter

And there's another chapter in there. I'm forgetting the number in order. Don't seek the strays. Yes So the elders job of well, just what you talk about.

Yeah, when people are not showing up Finding out where they are what's going on, you know tracking them down Seeing are they are they somewhere else?

So they know the church During the hurricane we had this on steroids. So we Yeah, we had a almost category 5 hurricane in September 28th 2022 in Boston and just south of Boston Fort my just outside of Fort Myers So I passed around Sanibel Island so that the eye of the hurricane went just to the left of Sanibel Island So the right arm of it

Which is the scary part like like sent a 13 -foot storm surge that went all over the island covered everything

So it was crazy and people were just dispersed So that the problem was we didn't we're like, where's everyone what's going on?

Are they coming back? And so we had our our team of their proto elders at that point We hadn't quite shifted to elders, but they they literally just started tracking down every single person just to find out like Like first of all,

I want to make sure everyone is alive. Thank God they were but then it was like, where are you? Yeah, what are you doing? Are you coming back?

Are you how's your house? How can we pray for you? and and it was just super heavy, but it was that like we need to keep track of every

Name on this list because they're the people that God's given us and some of them, you know We called some people because they were still

I'm still kind of new there and they hadn't really done this a lot recently You know, we called some people and they're like I haven't been to church for eight years.

We're like, okay. Well Thanks for letting us know but other people just to be clear for our viewers you are new to this church

I've been there three and a half years. Yeah, so they've had membership before I came but it wasn't it wasn't as I would say not quite as intentional as it is now

Well, we're really trying to really the goal is that the people who are members of the church are actively involved in the church

You know, they're they're actually participating in the life of the church unless they're shut in Yeah, or something like that a lot of people were swept away and for all kinds of reasons yeah, and and I mean, it's just it's honestly been the gut -wrenching just seeing people go but But you know,

I mean, it's just out of your control. What are you gonna do? Yeah, someone's like I literally can't rebuild my house. Yeah with the insurance

They've given me and the new building codes. So like I'm leaving the area permanently. It's just gut -wrenching.

Yeah Yeah, how many members like active members did you have before the hurricane? I Don't know active our membership list reflected what

I would say active and inactive people Okay I'll say this that before the hurricane in terms of the number of people on our membership rolls before their hurricane

And then we did all that follow -up. We're estimating that we'll lose 40 % of our membership

Okay on a Sunday morning. How many people were there? So, okay, here's another weird thing so our churches is unique Well, not unique but it's different than most church because we're a seasonal trial.

That's right Yeah, people are down during the winter because it's beautiful then they go up north in the summer. So in the summer

We are like 250 people and in the winter is like 600 people So a lot Wow, a lot of people come down.

Okay, that's kind of like Ocean City. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, or other very unique Yeah, tourist church, which makes it interesting for membership.

It makes it interesting for shepherding and elders. It's kind of a puzzle to solve Wow, how do you do that? Meaningfully?

Yeah, if someone's in your church for five months Yeah, and then they go back to their church in Michigan for seven months.

Yeah So like how do you do that meaningfully the cool thing is about the people in our churches when they're down Like they're they're really into it.

Yeah. Yeah, they're into it. Okay, so it's cool Let's just a different. Yeah, that's I feel like I want to Unpack that but let's let's hold off on that Um, okay, let's think through different kinds of sheep that need to be tracked down.

Okay, you may have Seriously ill that you got to keep up with Try not to forget about them

Even if you're not the one who's doing the visitation you want to make sure that they're loved and cared for Yes, absolutely, and that can even just be a church member.

And in fact in in many cases, it probably should be church members then you have

The Non -attender due to sin, which they never say. Hey, listen, like I'm deep in sin.

I'm not coming around They'll usually feign something else. Yeah, so that's another kind let's say that there is a member who is really seriously struggling with mental illness and you are maintaining hope that this member is actually a

Christian and They have pockets of coming back and being faithful and then pockets of being away and being troubled

You still got to care for him you got to figure that out. So they're just Pastorally, it's not just like are they there on Sunday or are they not there on Sunday?

There's all kinds of things that could be going on. Yes, and and so that's why taking a blanket approach either of license and just being like whatever or Legalism where it's like well, you weren't here for four weeks.

So off the list you go like neither is helpful. You have to really You have to be small and cheap and I think the elders have to go and just find out like what's going on with this

Person and you have to take it case by case. These are real people and their lives are real souls

Their lives are complex. Thank God. He doesn't deal with me in a blanket way You know, he's like tailored his grace to me

You know as I need it and so I think the same thing like we need to be so so I think I'd say our elders when it comes to just Like people who aren't coming to the church.

We're patient. Yeah, we're we just we just keep reaching out We're doing phone calls where you know

What we really want for everyone in the church is that they would be active members of a gospel preaching church

Whether ours or another church, yeah, and of course, we love them and wish they'd stay with ours

But if not ours for whatever reason then like being in a church. Yeah, that's right. We're not the only church We say that all the time.

Hey, love you I don't know why you're not coming back. But what can we do to help get you into? Another gospel preaching

Bible believing Church. Yeah. Yeah, you know our mission that Jesus given us is to make disciples That's right. It's not to grow our church.

Hey, man, so You tell me if this is stated too strongly, okay,

I don't think it is okay It's an it's an elders meeting.

I don't have you guys do like issues meetings member care meeting kind of break them up Okay. Yeah, so let's say it's a member care meeting.

Okay, we have the membership directory, which by the way pastors if you're listening You should have a membership directory.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, how can you shepherd your flock? Yeah, if you don't literally know who the sheep like with their faces, especially if your church is larger

You know, I want to be able to put a face with a name so Our church is getting to the size now where we can't go through the entire directory every time we do that But I mean, we're still a very small church.

We're like 92 members But you should be able to if you wanted to with all of your elders present walk through that membership directory

And somebody in that room should be able to talk about the spiritual condition of every single person not in that directory not as Comprehensively as if you were

God, but there shouldn't ever be a time where you get to someone and you go and everyone's like no one Knows what's going on with Jenny, right, you know like alive dead what?

Too strong. No, okay. Yeah, and we're not there. Yeah, we're still getting aspirational

It's an aspirational goal, but a hundred percent was it hard for you to I mean you you spent how long in Boston?

20 years they're packing the cab. I'd have it. Yeah You spent 20 years in Boston pushing the rock getting the church where you wanted us to be elders well -trained and discipled

Doing the training and equipping the Saints for the work of the ministry and then you move down to another church where you're like, okay

Let's do the whole rigmarole again. Is that tough? Yeah, actually I did it twice because I first went to the

Middle East and Pastored a church there for four years. Then I came in and now I'm doing an

Arabic How much a boy

Where were you over there Abu Dhabi? United Arab Emirates four years. Yeah four years. Just the climate was too much for you.

I love the I loved everything about okay So you came back? Yeah, so I was like, I love it so much. I'm yeah, why'd you leave?

Family things our kids going to college Parents getting older. Yeah. Yeah, and God just raised up a phenomenal replacement for me.

Who was your replacement? Aubrey Sequeira. Oh Yeah, I know. No, he literally was

Who's in a band? He was in one of the the biggest rock bands in India, really?

Yeah, he was the bass player. Oh Yeah, this was back in his like druggy rock days.

I didn't know he had druggy rock days. Yeah, you would like him Well, dude, okay You're blowing my mind right now

He's so cool. Okay. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah So so but yeah, you did it twice either way

I mean is that is are you like does that get you going like, all right, let's let's rebuild the church again I think you know,

I would say the Lord I think has called me and wired me to do it.

I don't like Having to start over because it's it's so much work

Just being in a new church and it's hard on a church having a new pastor I mean, I feel bad for my church that they have to endure me

I mean, you know, it's like a new pastor and you got to get used to me and it's just hard It's hard with a new pastor new church.

So why did you leave Boston specifically to go to the Middle East? Yeah, okay Yeah, also just tired of Boston, right?

Tired of the winter for sure, but but I just yeah, it's worse. So but I you know what it was So in a weird way every church

I've been in I've always had a sense of assignment Then I'm like I'm supposed to be here and I get other other opportunities

Everyone's in a blue moon in Boston I'd be like this weren't supposed to be who cares and then I just started getting a sense of Releasing in my heart like something else needs to happen

I don't know what it is like for the first time in like, you know over a decade I started having this kind of restlessness and then this thing happened in Abu Dhabi and I was like Him on told my wife.

I'm like, I need to apply for the Middle East. She's like, okay midlife crisis She's like go ahead apply.

Oh get out of your system and then we'll be happy in Boston the rest of our lives and Massachusetts so then but then

I got the job and were you not in Boston? I always just say Boston Yeah, well, I say Boston too.

Okay, and my wife's from Massachusetts. So she's always like we're not from Boston I'm like no one knows but it's this house

Okay, technically South Shore, Boston if you go halfway between Boston and Cape Cod That's where we were

South Shore. Wow, that's really boring. I Know it's like great radio. Yeah Okay next chapter or we don't know if it's next but another chapter would be

Prayer praying for the church. Yeah. Yeah elders, you know the Apostles, you know, you take care of the ministry of the tables

We'll divide ourselves the ministry of the word in practice chapter 6. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah We just did a panel together.

Yes an event where I Embarrassed myself by crying in front of room of a room full of men Basically, it was beautiful Any advice for me brother,

I just I always struggle with praying as much as I should one Let me tell you one thing I've done and then you can give me any any advice

I've tried to build rhythms of prayer into my life so that whether I feel like it or not I'm gonna be doing it.

So like if we had an elders meeting or Or anything like if me and the guys around the office are talking about anything and it doesn't end with a prayer

I think everyone's gonna feel strange about that and that's because I've tried to build a culture there Where's just we're always doing it regardless of whether or not in our hearts

But home that sounds bad, but you get what I'm saying trying to wait. He's like, maybe I do. I don't know

Yeah You know what? It's like to feel cold to feel distant to feel tired to not feel like praying

But when you build that rhythm in your life You at least are making sure that that muscle doesn't atrophy.

Yeah, you know. Yeah. All right. That's all I've got to say now I'm rambling you say you tell me well,

I agree. I I mean, I'm just a very Task -oriented get it done kind of person

And so if I don't force myself to do prayer things and have prayer segments of my life

Like I could easily go through weeks just like on Jeremy power because I'm just like kind of guy

So so, you know go for I go for a walk in the morning on the beach. I walk my dog I take prayer my you know list along and one thing

I've it's been one of the more fruitful things I've done tying this back into eldering is I just pray on my own for 10 12 15 members of the church a day

And then I I just take it just takes 15 minutes or so and I just write them a text saying praying for you today, and I just list what

I prayed for and I've actually found that's been one of the most fruitful Ways to pray for the church and just on my own praying for them and they'll be like I'm like anything else

I can pray for and they'll be like yeah pray for this and so it's just a quick thing Texting and and you can keep up to date with people and they really appreciate it.

Do you? Do you do it mark does read the text? Think what you're gonna pray for then copy and paste it or do you pray something individual for each person?

Something individual sometimes it's the same thing It just kind of depends something. It's just like something in my heart for the church, so I you know yeah

It's not just like hey. Here's you know the fortune cookie I found for prayer, and I just you know send it out a hundred times look at me better than that You know you're reading.

Yeah, you know Hebrew six Yeah, you're gonna drink from the water of you know the rain of God's Word this

Sunday I pray that you know and then boo boo boo boo boo you don't do that no no Yeah, it's something unless it's something

I'm really burdened for as I think of each person like one of the things I prayed for several people Today when

I sent it out was just that that they would love God uppermost today and desire to obey his commands

Okay, you know and and then you know and all and if I know something else about them. Hey also praying for your son who's

Having surgery or whatever and I was gonna pray for you. Yeah, that's been a really fruitful thing simple 15 minutes

They feel loved yeah, and I love them. Yeah, that's right But you know it's possible for you to love them and for them not to know it especially the larger the church gets yeah

Introverted like me okay You you just you know you have all these things inside.

You know you live inside your head when you're introvert, okay? And so you have all these I know I'm telling you what introverts are like dude.

I'm so jealous I would kill to be an introvert you should I feel like I feel like introversion extroversion is like something's off dude

It is it is okay. I mean yeah, yeah confirmed. Okay, like you get to process all your stupid thoughts inside your head

And I'm just Does that make sense no you're an idiot. I'm like no that's right, okay, but you're a great host

Yes, that's good. Yeah, so so it's really good, and I think that's right I think one of the things about you know if you're a pastor who's

I mean there's hope for introverted pastors That you know but you have to find ways because it's like it's like all in my head like I love these people mm -hmm like I Stayed for through a hurricane for them like I yeah,

I'm I'm literally ready to take a bullet. Yes people That's right, but I'm not always the best at gushing that out right so I have to find ways

To make what's in here go out there like for example when was the last time you told me you loved me, huh? I wasn't just right before this okay, all right.

Yeah, okay? Yeah, yeah before we move on to the is there a next chapter, let's ask about the rings you're wearing uh -huh

Yeah, these are you just a man jewelry guy I? I do like you like Do you have a necklace on I don't would you wear a necklace

I Might would you wear a man a male bracelet like a gold bracelet? I I have those yes, well

Here's another thing. This is like a holdover from even though you just did that right like we get it you wear rings

You know are you Italian? No, okay? Yeah, I Yeah, I'm kind of yeah.

I'm just sort of a mutt when it comes to fashion things. Yeah, I grew up in the southwest So I love like Native American jewelry.

Oh So when we were in Albuquerque, yes, you were like give me a turquoise ring, baby.

I literally And Literally when I got there I saw a guy with a ponytail and like dream catcher earrings and a turquoise ring and I texted all the guys back home

And I was like it's really true, and I just made fun of it. Oh, this is you I love that stuff Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, Wow yeah, sorry man. That's okay But I was I guess stuff for my wife and and the other thing raising my

Native American jewelry just to go off on it Yeah, sure it's really nice But it's not as expensive as going to whatever and getting a diamond

Yeah, and looks nice. Yeah lapis turquoise Yeah, Wow, okay.

Let's move on before he go down a dark path More interesting yeah, everyone's like this show it got so much better You know, it's funny.

Sometimes I'll have like these really deep incredible conversations with our guests only rarely with deep guests But people are always like hey when you guys started talking about whatever some stupid thing.

That was the best part I'm like, oh, well, glad we're doing this then it's a little human interest feature a little a little bit.

So Other chapters are there more do we do all eight? No, I'm trying to remember the other ones offhand.

It's been a long time since I wrote that I'm reading it again right now with our elders. I have a group of Aspiring elders.

I'm reading it with yeah What do you wish your younger self knew? About pastoring.

I mean not not even like before you got into nine marks and all that stuff Just you've been pastoring for 20 some odd years even with all the right theology in place

Lords probably worked some wisdom into you that even when you had the theological building blocks

You couldn't really see how to put them together The right way. So what's some good wisdom for your younger self?

I think when I was younger I was a lot more I had so much more fear of man

Okay, what people thought of me pleasing people and and so I would

I think I was driven a lot to perform and do a do a good job because I wanted people to approve that I was doing a good job and I think over the years

God has and it's continuing to free me from that to be like hey, listen,

I just have to be faithful and And be faithful to the Lord and just trust that that the

Word does the work that the Spirit does the work that I'm not The Holy Spirit. I'm not I'm not the

Messiah, you know, I love John, you know when they come to him and like Are you the Christ? He's like I am NOT and You know, so just embracing that so I think over the years

I've just chilled out a lot in terms of all that that that sort of approach to ministry and Just kind of God makes you comfortable in your own skin

We're like this who I am and not as a way of settling for who you are in sin But just like accepting that you're limited that I need sleep.

I need to go on vacation I can only do so much. I have these gifts. I don't have those gifts.

That's okay to admit that and so I think just embracing Weakness and limitation so that the

Lord's power can be made perfect in our weakness. Amen, brother What what is the greatest encouragement you see among Pastors, I guess in America, but in your network wherever right now the greatest encouragement and then one of the

Discouragements a word of warning or exhortation that you might offer to you know fellow pastors

I I think when I look at the the younger generation of pastors who are coming up like they're

There's just a lot of them who that they just want the word They want the real thing.

They're not they don't they can like see through all the marketing Yeah, and the glitz stuff and they're like, like they know they're being played to yeah, they're like, yeah

Yeah, they're trying to make that music sound like whatever and some people are like, oh, it's great It's just like the radio, but there's a lot of these guys who are like, like give me something real

Yeah, and they're drawn back to some of the the great writers of the past and some of the great traditions

So I I find that just immensely encouraging because you know what those those younger and you know

Younger pastors 20s, even the guys here in their teens now are gonna become pastors like they're not gonna grow up in a culture

That's going to be conducive to any kind of nominal faith. Yeah, like so they're gonna have to be fighters

Yeah, they have to be ready. Yeah to stand with no cultural support Yeah, and and I think that's that's who's coming up like they're like like we're soft

And I think the Lord's gonna raise up like strong men. Hey, man, we're just gonna stand. Yeah.

All right discouragement frustration Something that you're concerned about I I'm always concerned about the

Evangelical Church in America losing its nerve over the authority of God's Word Mm -hmm, and that's it's the root of so many things

Yeah, and I think all these things where we're capitulating into culture because deep down we really don't believe that this is

The Word of God Almighty and we're not willing to take a stand on it. So Yep. All right.

Let's do some rapid -fire questions. Shall we? Okay 9 -11 was the government involved

Okay, I can't talk about that cuz they might hear what I said right now that's true tea or coffee coffee nice Which race is your least favorite?

Ultramarathon nice see now you're understanding what we're doing here saying it. Yeah favorite TV show Of all time no right now the last five months last five months, of course

You're like between 89 and 91 February yes Right now

I'm digging Shogun Okay based off the fantastic book.

No, you didn't know that. No, okay Uh Devor you listening.

I'm lock -in dude. It's late. It's 904. Uh -huh. He said Devor. I was like, oh, you're like what daddy?

I Do hope he he will adopt me one day We got Ed on the show to sign adoption papers for me really without him realizing it

It was like hey sign this stack. Yeah, and we're not gonna say what it is. Just trust us That's basically with the first one.

What do we say they were? Yeah, I was like really an

NDA he was like, all right No, they were like there's like another one it was like a liability waiver

Liability documented elder abuse. Yeah You've filmed it and then the third one we were like, oh you just signed this too and he signed it

We were like, well, you're my dad now Okay, Devor Piper Keller Sproul Johnny Mac will throw in Kevin DeYoung to not you can only you're on a desert island.

You can only read Books from one of those authors for the rest of your life. Who do you pick?

I'd pick Sproul. Yeah. Yeah. Why? Historical depth.

Yeah clarity of systematic. Yeah theology

Yeah, it's just it's so rich. Yeah, and you could take his sermons. Yeah, which

I've been put into book form Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean it's tough. I pick any of those guys. Sure. They're all they've all been well

Let's have blessed my soul round two if you could only take one of their preaching with you on an island

Let's say you have an iPod Loaded up. Mm -hmm with sermons, but you only get one.

Mm -hmm Devor Piper Keller Sproul Johnny Mac DeYoung Probably DeYoung Interesting.

I really appreciate him. Yeah, he's a very good preacher. Very good preacher faithful expositor Engaging and I just have been so helped whenever he decides to weigh in to a hot topic

Yeah, I'm always like and I have clarity that is where he is the absolute best. He's ironic best

You know, I read their little their little in the pews their little What are they like tithe cards or whatever right which drives me crazy come on guys, let's stop calling it

You probably call it tie that your church to Their their motto is

I try to avoid tithe good their motto is stand on truth walk in grace That that is kind of the tone.

He strikes whenever he gets in. Yeah, that's her fuffles about things. Yeah, it's so helpful Do we go to the moon?

You Know again, I don't know who's listening. Yeah, so I don't know if the government's listening.

Yeah, so I can't comment. Okay. Yeah If you had to pick a dictator to live under yes,

Pol Pot GG ping Stalin Mao or Hitler If I had to choose yeah, oh gosh

I Don't really I mean when

I was in Abu Dhabi, I lived under a monarch. Yeah, and it was great I think it was wonderful.

I think I would have chosen Hitler. Uh -huh. I'll tell you why You gotta live on nuance you gotta live under one of them, right do

I that's this is the thought experience Okay I mean for about five years with Hitler.

You're just like riding high. You're like we're doing this Come on, we're crushing it and then listen, the fall is so fast.

You don't even know what happens And then afterwards because after the Treaty of Versailles World War one

World War two happened because they treated Germany so harshly that they had to do that Yeah, so now they're a little bit more lenient.

So the repercussions Anyway, do you have a screenshot of like the the board with all the strings in the yarn?

I would love to see that I do and I'll send it to you. He's like I've worked this out. Yes, but mine is is

Actually, that'll leave me to my next question. Mine. I would say mine is dispensationalism Dispon Dispensationalism all millennialism

Preterism partial preterism where you land? Um, I I would say I believe in inaugurated eschatology

But all the Old Testament prophecies have been have begun to be fulfilled in Christ We'll reach their conclusion when he returns.

Well, that's a non answer. Yeah favorite fiction Fantasy, of course, like Fifty Shades of Grey and not so much.

Okay. What are you talking about? You know anything like, you know, the Lord of the Rings dragons and warriors and and Quests and you done read rising.

Yeah, I read I read the first three books read rising you like them. It was good It was good. It's not great though. Greg Gilbert.

I I didn't want to read the next three. Let's just say that I was like I've finished the first three and I was like, okay, that's done pretty brutal

But if you had to choose CS Lewis all of his corpus or Tolkien all of his cult corpus

You can only have one. What do you pick? Corpus is Latin for body Do tell

I would say I mean for the edification my soul CS Lewis for my

Pleasure and you don't get to do that. You get to pick one. It's yes Lewis. Okay This Lewis has all kinds of genres too.

That's true. Yeah. Yeah Do you know what the hottest letter in the alphabet is B, you know, why turns oil to boil?

Mountains or Beach Hmm Probably Beach you live there.

So I hope so. Yeah, I do love my favorite book outside of the Bible favorite book outside of the Bible Oh Like favorite in what category like, hmm.

No nuance. No, no I Love Arnold Dalamore's two -volume

Biography of George Whitefield. Yeah, like that like changed my life Love that.

Okay Champagne or wine Mm -hmm.

I mean champagnes not even really a thing. It's just yeah, I don't know.

What'd you mean by that? It's just not there's no substance to it. Okay, so why yeah, okay you drink.

Mm -hmm Android or iPhone Okay, macaroni salad or potatoes

Well, they're both so horrific Really yeah, you can choose egg salad if you want. Yeah, thanks.

Oh, there you go egg salad. All right night out or night in Night in yeah favorite movie

Probably Return of the King That's a Lord of the Rings. That's the third one. Yeah, although I just saw the second

Dune and it was ridiculous Let's talk more about that. I feel like it was bloated.

Really? I loved one, but we'll talk more about it Yeah, one was tighter. Yeah, that's right concert or football game concert favorite band

I Really like I mean influential me as a kid

Petra Okay best to write sermons to Daft Punk Wow, okay

Morning, you too. Huh you too, really? I love and I love

REM Even though they're so utterly not Christians, but they just have incredible harmonies melodies

Okay, and this you know, that's why I grew up with morning person or night out. Mm -hmm. I Don't know man,

I gotta work so it's like I feel like I've just been turned into a morning person. Yeah. Yeah Burger King or McDonald's Not a fast -food guy.

Yeah, okay Mexican or Italian Oh Mexican for sure for sure for sure.

Sure Barbecue or burger barbecue french fry or onion rings

Chinese takeout and not the good kind. Okay, like you're gonna punish yourself.

Yeah. Yeah, you might get paid I'm gonna pay you're gonna pay for this Chinese takeout or sushi See When I thought

I love sushi, but I don't want to have bad sushi. Yeah, cuz Chinese takeout is bad

It's like oh, that was bad Chinese other one. You're like you're in the emergency. I'm getting your stomach pump Yeah, I had a buddy who ate sushi from Kroger once and I was like, hey, yeah life's too short

Don't do that to yourself friends risky, brother rock or rap Obviously rock.

Yeah classical or jazz Classical trapped on an island with one systematic theology for the rest of your life.

Which one do you choose? That's great Ligon Duncan said slap

Yvonne Schmeier locker Geez that's a really

Tough one. I love Burkoff. I love I'm spacing on names

Perform dogmatics. Okay. Yeah by bobbing. There we go. He's so hot right now. Yeah, he's just his writing is almost like devotional

It's so good. Yeah. Yeah. Did you read that in seminary? You just reading it as of late bits? I haven't read it cover to cover.

I would love to Yeah, okay Wonderful works of God is a good intro to a lot of yeah

Yeah, if you had to do apologetics with one cult or just any false religion

Mormonism Jehovah's Witness Islam Hinduism, which what do you think would be the most interesting one for you to engage in I Think a really hard one is

Hinduism. Yeah Like if I was gonna have to go at one, yeah, cuz Hinduism matter no matter what you say, they're like cool

Yeah, you can yeah park that right over here, right? Yeah, great and that over there. It's very hard.

Yeah Yeah, I think also like Shintoism which Buddhism and Shintoism are kind of from the same tree

I know that Shintoism is more Japan, but Buddhism was very deeply rooted in and medieval

Japan in feudal Japan What's so difficult about that? Is that even when you go to use a language of God?

Conceptually that doesn't mean the same thing to them. So you have to like construct An idea first.

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, it takes a lot of words to come up with God Yes versus like Islam where you're like a law and you're you're at least in the same neighborhood.

Yeah, that's right I'm not I don't think I don't think the God of Islam is the God of recognizing Jacob, but You know, at least you're like monotheistic all creator all -powerful.

Yeah What him do you want to be sung at your funeral and can I mean is it as well my soul?

One piece like a river because well for which reason that's my favorite song of all time

How could it not be that he will hold me fast? Yeah, but what you know, is that when you sing that at your funeral?

Yeah, if there are Christians there They're gonna crank it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they're gonna let it rip

Yeah our church knows that like it doesn't matter if the guitarist has like or the piano player has like an aneurysm and falls on the

Ground like when he will hold me fast comes on we're doing it. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, when peace like a river

I mean like almost like you can just send all the instrumental software coffee break and like we're just gonna rock this

I Almost wonder if it wouldn't even be better. I mean, I guess a light piano accompaniment But when a congregation is well -trained, yeah, they believe in that song, especially if it's like a response song

To a strong gospel sermon just let the people do their thing. Yeah, you know

Yeah, they want it. They want to yell. Yeah and let them right. What are you reading right now? in terms of what

Take that direction and take that question any direction you want to for Theology actually,

I'm just I just picked up Matt markers new book in the name mark series on corporate worship. Very good Super excited not that now.

Yeah, isn't no new to me. Okay, so I just got a hold of that Yeah, and then

I've always wanted to read The book we just got free today, it's getting late on liberalism

What's his name Machen, yeah Christianity and liberalism That's it.

Come on, dude. Okay, so he has the best analogy in there for false. Yeah, I've been wanting to read it

It's like one of those books. I'm like, oh, I can't wait to read that and then I get like swirl But I mean like even that's what like for 50 years now.

Yeah. Okay, I have a lot of things like that my life and then For pleasure reading.

I'm reading through Terry Pratchett's Discworld series Yeah, there's like 42 of them

I see it sounds like a good place for us to end the Interview But this has been great.

It's been fun. It's been informative. I bet our viewers all there are dozens of us

Dozens, okay watching watching this right now. So this will be good for them.

No, seriously. This was good I hope it'll be helpful for yeah pastors and for church members alike if you're

Watching this or listening to this and you're like, oh, I don't think that's happening at my church Yeah We would encourage you to try to find a church where your soul can be shepherded

Look on the nine marks church search directory find somewhere where shepherds who love you and more importantly love

God and his Word will care for your soul Like it's their job. Let's pray

Lord, thank you so much for my brother. Thank you for the Decades of experience that you've given him through many trials and tribulations, but also through much

Joy deep joy The joy that can only be known in Christian service.

We pray that you'll continue to bless him as he goes back To the island to build that church back up there still in the aftermath of such a tragedy

We pray that you'll give him an abundance of the fruits of the Spirit as your spirit works powerfully in his life to lead your people

And Lord, we pray that this episode will will do exactly what you want it to do that. It will Benefit the elect and that it will glorify your name.