The Deconstruction of Christianity | Alisa Childers

We're back with another episode of Room for Nuance.

I'm Sean with my guest Elisa Childers.

Elisa.

Yes.

Not Elisa.

Not Elisa.

Not Elisa.

Have you ever heard anyone say your name properly the first time?

Yes.

Really?

I have and you know it's oddly usually like in stores when I'm paying and they see my name and they'll just say it

right and Wow.

I'll be like, how did you?

Yeah, how did you know?

Well sister, we always get started with prayer.

Would you mind praying as we get started?

Absolutely father.

Thank you so much for the freedom and opportunity to come together to Have

conversations that glorify your name and edify your church.

That's our goal for today.

We hope that that is accomplished and We pray that that your will would be

done in all the words that we speak and that would reach the people who need to Hear it and minister to those who

need it in Jesus name.

Amen.

Now our viewers will note that we are in a different space a different studio space

unfortunately.

The studio for the room for nuance podcast was located in my church building which

burned down last week.

So now we are in another location, but the podcast continues.

Can you start just by giving us like a five -minute version of your testimony?

Yeah.

Yeah, so born and raised in a Christian home.

I Nominally or sincerely sincerely.

Yeah.

Yeah, really dedicated Christian parents.

I Personally was totally devoted to Jesus my whole life.

I Read almost the whole Bible by the time I was 12.

It was very very devout in my faith and in Jesus and one of the things I'm thankful to my parents for is

they they really?

Did model what real Christians are like and so you hear all these horror stories of people growing up

with these horrible?

Quote -unquote.

Christians and I just the Christians in my life were basically really great people that loved the Lord.

They believed the Bible was God's Word and they they served other people.

We would go out and do homeless ministry and street evangelism growing up all kinds of stuff like that.

So so my faith wasn't blind.

It was a very deep faith but what I didn't realize growing up is that it wasn't very

informed intellectually and So I had never heard words like hermeneutics.

I grew up in the more kind of charismatic side of things.

Yeah, so I knew a guy named Herman new Herman and new ticks.

Yes.

Good old Herman.

But I didn't know I didn't know systematic theology.

I didn't know any of those words or I just I realized now looking back actually that I interpreted the Bible.

Kind of allegorically I didn't realize I was doing that Augustine would be proud.

Yeah.

But I would you know Whatever was going on in the Old Testament, for example, I would it would just apply it to some

spiritual battle I was having in my life because I just didn't know I didn't know that the historical context really mattered

more than I believed.

It was real.

I believed it really happened but I shouldn't have those tools and So it wasn't till I was I

did some contemporary Christian music industry stuff through the 90s.

And then after I came off the road.

My husband and I started attending a church right in the heart of the Bible Belt.

I if I'm honest really had lost touch with the local church.

I loved Jesus.

But I didn't really make it a priority to stay connected to the local church while I was touring.

Yeah, and that really made me vulnerable for what would happen next but In this church that we loved

the pastor invited me to be a part of a smaller group study.

And so I remember coming to the first class there's about 12 people kind of all sitting around in a circle

like we are okay, and He said to this group.

Well first he said what we talked about in here kind of stays in here.

Which is not a good sign.

Yeah, and then he said he was an agnostic and that blew my

mind because.

Well, first of all, I didn't really know I kind of knew what that was.

I had a gymnastics coach.

That was agnostic when I was a kid and I brought him a gospel track thinking, you know, that'll cure that spiritual disease.

But that's what he said he was he said he was hopeful agnostic and so at this time I

Was confused by that, of course red flags were flying but I thought well, I don't want to be judgmental I'm gonna hear him out.

Maybe he just needs strength and support and well long story short.

Every core belief that I'd ever held about Jesus and God the what Christianity is the

Bible especially the Bible these things were picked apart explained away they were deconstructed and

It really wasn't until we left the church there.

There was a night when they invited the spouses for some reason he had just invited me to this class.

But then also not another good sign.

No looking back.

I'm like, yeah.

Yeah, but I would go home each week telling my husband you won't believe what they talked about this week and then I'd spend the whole

week researching that question to try to refute what the pastor was saying, okay, and When they

invited the spouses though, I remember we got in the car.

My husband was really quiet and he just goes we're done.

You're done.

We're living.

Yeah, I did Praise God for that.

So it was then when we left the church that I didn't really have anybody to debate with and so all of those

doubts took root and really grew and so it really propelled me into a faith crisis that

I didn't know if God existed at all.

I was really double -minded.

I I didn't lose my faith.

I don't want to over -exaggerate it, but I Truly loved Jesus and surely didn't know if he actually

existed.

It was sort of like both of those things together so I just remember crying out to God one night and Saying God if you're

real if the things that I've believed about you are true.

I need to know that they're true.

Yeah.

And so God just sent me on this journey of studying apologetics and church history and theology and

All the things hermeneutics.

I got to meet Herman.

And then rebuilt my faith and made a lot of course corrections along the way.

So there's I've you know, I disagree with my parents on some things theologically now but I really am

thankful to them for Teaching me what mattered about the gospel about the Bible being God's Word

and things like that.

Wow, how long ago was that?

That was over 10 years ago.

Yeah time flies.

I bet it just feels like yesterday.

Yeah, then you've written some books.

You've been involved with the American Gospel Projects.

Sister your apologetics ministry is absolutely invaluable.

So I'm really excited for us to talk about this.

But before we do I went on to our Facebook page.

That's about as much social media as I do and I posted and I said what must I absolutely ask Alyssa Childers

about?

But you you kind of Alisa dang again.

It would just keep going.

Okay.

Yeah, it's gonna happen again for sure.

And everyone said You have to ask about Zoe girl now.

Listen, you just kind of breezed right past it earlier.

So we don't have to talk about it if you don't want I'm happy to talk about.

Okay.

Cuz I know how it can be with that.

It's a part of your life.

You're like, yeah, I don't be fun.

I don't really get to talk about it.

Very really.

I don't even know who or what a Zoe girl is.

So this was Back in 1999 and this was when do you remember the Spice Girls?

Tell me what I want.

Yeah.

So the Spice Girls were just at the height of their fame.

Okay, and so the Christian industry is like we need a Christian Spice Girls.

Wow.

So at that time I I had visions of being a singer -songwriter because that was really more my

genre that I that I did.

But I was 25 at this point.

Feeling like I felt so old at 25.

I felt like oh man I I have to figure it out got it got to get in this thing.

I'm almost a senior citizen.

Oh entertainment.

Yeah, yeah, so this opportunity came to me to be a part of what they

they didn't say at the time it was like Christian Spice Girls, but that it would be a Like a teen pop group that would be

aimed at young girls like who is they?

They are the powers that be you know, the record label the management.

Actually, it was our manager and the record label that came together to put together Zoe girl.

So it really is like a like a Christian music machine.

Yeah, yeah, it was and and so what they what they wanted us to do is write songs that.

Would.

Minister to young girls and so which is not bad.

No.

No, it's a it's a good call and I know you know I look back on it and I still hear stories from kids who are now,

you know, they have their own kids.

They're married with kids now and they say, you know.

Your songs really helped me to be bold for Jesus on my public school campus.

And so I love hearing stuff like that and that that's really encouraging.

But so we yeah, we were together for about seven or eight years and We

got to tour I got to do some really cool things.

Yeah, well, I was in Zoe girl.

I got to play at Madison Square Garden with Carmen.

I think that was with Carmen.

Carmen do you not know?

See you have so much.

Okay, is that a Christian artist?

So Carmen see some of your audience right now is laughing because they know who car.

Jars of clay are okay.

Okay, so you have an excuse.

So Carmen was like the big Christian artist in the 80s and

90s.

Okay, and he kind of made this comeback in the early 2000s a band.

Carmen is one guy one guy.

It the best way I could describe him is he was kind of like he's not alive anymore.

But he was kind of like the Christian Tom Jones like Las Vegas.

Like do you know who this is massive shows, okay, you know dancers.

Pyrotechnics.

Like the tour we did with him had pyrotechnics.

Wow, so we played Madison Square Garden with him and I got to play the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

Whoa.

Got to tour with the Newsboys.

I got to do one show with DC talk when they were still together.

Yeah.

Do you know are they still walking with the Lord?

Well, that's a great question, okay, so Toby it the kind of the main one that everybody knows.

Yeah, Toby Mac is is walking with the Lord and Michael is walking with the Lord.

Okay, but Kevin has deconstructed.

Hmm, and.

You think his time in the music industry had a big part to play in there, you know.

I don't know it'd be hard for me to speculate because I don't really personally know Kevin very well.

I met him a time or two, but I asked because in your book at the end interestingly.

I thought it would have been in the introduction you talk about how.

Some of your journey at least trending towards deconstruction was because of some of what you experienced in the Christian music

industry.

Yeah.

Without question, but at the same time it's like there are so many artists that don't deconstruct and then there's so many that do but

I definitely think there are factors there.

But with Kevin he he went on Twitter I think it was a couple of years ago and basically said that

he's Deconstructed and he's progressive now and he follows Richard Rohr and the universal Christ and all of that.

So You know for all intents and purposes.

He's walked away.

Yeah, but The other two are walking with the Lord.

So to my knowledge.

You still getting those royalty checks?

Oh, yeah, they're like, what are they like?

18 cents sometimes.

Well, they actually stopped cutting checks for I did get a royalty check for 18 cents once.

Yeah, I think we just framed it or something.

I didn't even throw it away or use it.

Yeah.

But yeah, it's we get it's it's very they're very small.

Yeah now has you know, we live in the age of you know.

Our society is in decline.

We can't come up with anything new.

All we do is repurpose old thing and make sequels and prequels.

Has there been any mention of like a Zoe girl reunion tour?

We've actually the three of us.

So there's three of us in the group.

We've talked about it In fact, cuz you're all following the Lord.

We're all walking with the Lord God and we're all married with kids now okay, and Actually about I

think it was maybe I Hate to say it was probably like 10 years ago.

We started talking about how each of us had written lullabies for each one of our children.

Wow.

And.

Wouldn't it be fun to come together and make a lullaby album?

Because all of our little Zoe girlfriends are now moms and in that age group so I can see it just never happened.

You're right by Nashville.

Just find somebody the tightest to tour.

Right.

You've become the tightest to women.

I bet you.

I bet you you'd pick like 10 locations 10 dates.

You'll sell out.

It's the only thing people have asked about.

They're like tell us about Zoe girl.

I'm like, who is Zoe girl?

Yeah now I know.

All right, maybe after this is over. I'll show you a really embarrassing Christian rap video of me back when I

used to oh, I'd love to yeah, it's pretty bad.

Now Luke.

Luke is actually a real artist.

He has just repurposed five hymns that are basically unsingable with their traditional melody.

He's put them to a more modern melody.

They're amazing.

Oh, pretty cool, huh?

Hey, so you got into apologetics.

Do you still do music stuff?

Like do you serve musically in the church or is that kind of in the rearview?

Well, it's coming back.

So I Served as sort of like on as an artist in

residence at a church for a few years.

Kind of during that faith crisis and actually I'm so thankful for that church because the pastor I was really honest with him

About my struggles and he helped kind of disciple us through that process of leaving that church.

So I served there for a few years really up until Kovat actually.

Okay.

And then they kind of changed the way that they did things and they used to have artists come in and Help with the worship and then

they stopped doing that.

Okay, so from Kovat until about a few months ago I really wasn't doing much of

any music at all, but over the course of the last Ten years really along this

theological journey. I started to write songs again.

And so there were songs that I wrote when I was literally just coming out of the dark.

The one was originally I called it a doubters hymn because it was like me just singing by faith.

The truths that I knew were true, but I was my heart was trying to catch up with them and

So I just got to record five songs that I've just released like in October.

They're out.

They're out.

Can you send me the link to that?

I can.

Okay.

Yeah, that's great.

How.

What's the reception been like so far?

It's been great.

I mean wait, it was kind of it was a bit of a leap of faith because it's expensive to make music and we used a live

string section, which is very expensive and.

But it was like, you know, if we're gonna do this, let's do it, right?

Yeah, let's make something excellent and you know and and my goal was not I Did

not want to go through a label.

I I did not I don't want to go through CCL.

I I don't think it's right that churches should have to pay money to sing songs in their churches.

Yeah, so We're not doing any of that.

So it's just totally independent.

So but I'm I'm really thrilled the reception has been great.

We've pretty much broken even so I'm thrilled about that.

That's huge.

If you really spent that much money on it.

Yeah.

Yeah, so especially in the age where people don't make money off of selling music anymore, right?

It's all like downstream.

You don't really make any money off the album.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, so I'm really I'm really it's been satisfying.

So that's that's been.

Increasing like invitations to go to churches.

And so sometimes now I'll sing a song when I you know, like speak at a women's conference or something and yeah.

Why do you think churches should not use CCLI?

Well, it's so I remember.

This is my personal opinion and I could be wrong, but I remember back.

When that all became a thing, okay, and I remember my publisher.

This is when I was signed to.

I think it was EMI at the time.

Okay, and I'm a big label.

Yeah, so it was Sparrow Records they got bought by EMI which is a secular company.

Okay, all pretty most of the labels now are owned by secular companies just like the publishing houses.

Yeah, it's kind of it's similar.

So I think capital owns our catalog now.

So it's it's gone through, you know some changes, but it was EMI at the time and I remember our publisher saying

You know when you write worship songs.

One of the ways that you'll make money is is that when churches actually sing them in their services?

They're gonna pay a royalty and I looked at him.

I said, that's that's wrong.

It's one thing to produce, you know a project that people pay for the music.

That's one thing because that cost you something to make.

But just for churches to have to pay a royalty.

To worship just it hits me really wrong.

And so I didn't want to do that.

That was certainly the way I reacted the first time I heard about yeah, I didn't even know that was a thing.

Yeah, because technically even if a church isn't using I think this is right.

I may be wrong about this.

Isn't even using the CCLI software.

They're still supposed to report.

Mm -hmm.

What songs they're singing.

That's right to pay the royalty.

Yeah is hits me in all kinds of wrong ways.

Can you imagine the IRS kicking down your door you owe us?

$700.

All right, we got to start talking about deconstruction.

I have so many questions.

Sometimes when I do interviews, I'll read people's books and I'll just be like, yeah, we'll talk about something else.

But your book is just full of quotations.

I did my best to try to narrow everything down to make this a streamlined discussion, but

The whole manuscript could have just been underlined and highlighted.

I thought it was very useful.

Very well written.

With Tim what's Tim's last name.

Tim Barnett.

Tim Barnett of red pen logic.

Red pen logic.

He's got those fantastic YouTube videos and those shorts.

I I mostly just see the shorts, but anytime I see them I'm edified by him.

Yeah, so hopefully we can get him on the show.

He's doing great work.

Yeah.

You know before you wrote this book you say Sorry, actually,

let's let's go back even before that.

Let's talk about your heart in addressing this.

Russell Berger and I we do an apologetics podcast kind of sometimes when we have enough time when we did our

series on critical theory which is not just critical race theory, but all of that it was such a.

Passions were so inflamed about that subject that the very first episode we did was to talk about our heart.

In addressing that subject because we were gonna say some some pretty tough things.

We wanted people to know that it was in love that we were praying for fruit of the Spirit as we were doing it.

Etc.

And that's how you and Tim start off the book.

You say We feel like we are writing with both tears in our eyes and a sword

in our hand.

Can you elaborate on that?

Yeah.

Well one comparison I could make is When there's some sort of a like a pandemic.

You want to fight that disease because you care about the people who could be hurt by it.

So you have tears in your eyes for the people who might be harmed by it?

Yeah, but you're gonna throw everything you have at curing it stopping it, you know that

kind of thing.

So I think deconstruction is kind of like that disease.

That you're gonna throw you're gonna pull out your sword and do everything you can do to stop it from

Robbing people of their faith.

Yeah, but at the same time you have tears in your eyes for the people who are so confused.

Yeah by the deconstructionists online and the propaganda machine that the social media

Space is.

Yeah, so I think that was that was really kind of what we meant and it also that was spring -boarded off

of.

Some pushback we would get when we would talk when we would talk in war language.

So this was we kind of start the book with this now viral statement that skillet frontman John

Cooper made at winter jam when he said it's time to declare war on the idolatrous deconstructing Christian

movement and.

What I think that revealed at the time was that Christians were defining deconstruction in really

different ways.

Because for those of us who understood it like John understood it as this thing that robs your faith.

We were like, yes, John, you know, that's great.

But then for people who were defining it just as simply Engaging your doubts or asking hard

questions.

They were like, why are you so mad at me?

I'm asking questions.

I want to know what's true.

So I think that's where we were trying to explain like we're not mad at people who

are confused.

We're mad at the lie, yeah, you're like a surgeon who's.

Aggressively removing any signs of cancer.

That's right.

You're not doing it to hurt the patient.

You're doing it because you want to help the patient, right?

If you cut somebody's chest open, yeah, and you're not a doctor and there's no purpose then you're harming that person but if

you're a doctor and you have a scalpel and you're trying to Remove disease then it's it's still the same

instrument.

Mm -hmm, but it's used for a better evil.

Yeah, that's right.

So.

You in that little You were talking about the different ways that people

use the word deconstruction.

Here's a quote from.

Right at the beginning of the book you say when terms are not clearly understood We can end up talking past one another.

You and I were talking about the good faith debate that I did with Rebecca McLaughlin about wokeness.

Really disappointed in how that turned out because Not until halfway into the second part of

the debate.

Do we realize that we're just not even using this word in the same way, you know?

So when terms are not clearly understood we can end up talking past one another.

Multiple meanings create confusion, especially when it comes to a word as emotionally charged as

Deconstruction.

So right at the outset of this interview as we begin to explore this topic Can you just give us a good

succinct definition of deconstruction?

Yes, and and I will tell you that this definition was the hardest sentence for Tim and I to write in the whole book just to

Try to pin it down.

And I will also tell you that one of the reasons we wanted to be so careful to define it So succinctly is

because we saw so many Well -meaning Christian leaders using it in all kinds of different ways, which

is really confusing so our definition and we can dig down into some of this if you want to is.

It's a postmodern process.

Mm -hmm.

Of Rethinking your faith, but not regarding scripture as a standard.

You nailed it.

That's exactly what I have directly word for word from you.

You really did write this book.

No ghostwriters.

You really wrote this.

Okay, so we're gonna basically spend the rest of the interview unpacking that.

Let's contrast your definition With a definition that Josh Harris the author of

I kissed dating.

Goodbye.

Yeah, how I.

Yeah.

Who has deconstructed.

He is one of the more honest Deconstructors he says.

There's a biblical phrase for the word deconstruction and it's called falling away.

What does he mean by that?

Yeah.

Well, this was in 2019 so Josh Harris was like this icon of purity culture in the 90s and

He basically announced that he was getting a divorce and then a couple of weeks later He went on Instagram and that that's where that

comes from as he was saying I've deconstructed the for all intents and purposes.

I'm not a Christian anymore and the biblical phrase is falling away.

So we pointed that out because back in 2019 there were not a lot of people challenging that definition.

Most people were like, yeah deconstruction means walking away or deconversion was synonymous.

Yeah, and Then after that there seemed to be a whole bunch of Christians really more in the

evangelical world saying oh no just deconstruct.

But deconstruct in a healthy way.

So the example that would be Lecrae.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

When he said I'm deconstructing he had this long series of tweets.

Which really he was just saying I'm reexamining my faith to make sure it's biblical, right?

And so we would say yeah.

Everybody should reexamine, you know every day always examine make sure your beliefs line up with scripture.

Make sure they line up with what's real and true.

But we're saying that's not deconstruction.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, which is interesting because when you wrote your first book another gospel.

Yeah, you use the phrase deconstruction.

Can you talk about I changed it?

Yeah, I've changed my mind.

Yeah, so did somebody come to you and say sister I don't think this is helpful or was it you just working through it.

It was me working through it so basically in my first book another gospel, which is sort of my

theological memoir of.

Where I walk the reader through that process I described at the beginning of our interview where I was talking about my doubt and all of that and At

the time I called that deconstruction even in the book.

I called it deconstruction because it was the best word I had at the time but what started to happen is

When I started to talk more about deconstruction Progressive Christians who had already been through

deconstruction and other deconstructionists would say you don't understand deconstruction.

Mm -hmm, and I was like, well, I'm pretty sure I do.

I almost lost my faith, you know, and They would say no you you didn't deconstruct because you still

believe all the things Christians believe, you know well, they would say evangelicals, but sometimes they conflate the two

but.

And and so I would say Okay, so because I busted everything down to the studs

I mean you these people had no idea how many beliefs I actually changed.

But because I believe Jesus is my Savior that I'm a sinner that has the Bible's Atoning sacrifice on the

cross that he's coming back to judge the living in the dead.

Hell is real because I believe those things I didn't deconstruct so that got me thinking like this word

means something different as Manifests in culture then then we maybe some the way some people in church are

using it or even historically the way.

The right with the word was intended to be used right exactly.

Get into the book.

That's right.

So then I started thinking about the postmodern baggage behind the word and then I started to ask myself why did I use a postmodern

word to describe what really I think was a process of seeking truth and

Following the truth wherever it leads.

Yeah, why am I using a postmodern word that is built upon the rejection of absolute truth?

Why would I do that?

Yeah, and I hung on to it for a while and Because I do think

even in my faith crisis I I subtly bought into some of the lies of postmodernism not realizing it

until I pulled back out of it.

But it was when we wrote this book.

It became so clear to me.

I did not deconstruct.

That is absolutely not what happened I doubted.

I nearly maybe lost my faith.

I don't think I could have but right nearly felt like I did.

Yeah, I re -evaluated Absolutely everything I believe about everything.

But that's not deconstruction.

That is not what I did because what is manifesting in the deconstruction space Which is it's largely happening

online because people leave their church communities.

They leave even sometimes write no contact letters, then they find community online, which is basically a propaganda machine.

That's really what it is.

Yeah, and so they they will tell you if they laugh I mean, they have

memes meme after meme after meme laughing at Christian pastors who say oh just deconstruct with the Bible in one hand.

And they're like that's not what this is.

Yeah, you're not supposed to have an external authority when you yeah, that's right.

Well, you say that there are a number of different reasons why the word deconstruction should not be baptized, which is a great image

Redeemed or Christianized to mean something healthy or positive, but the main Reason you give is

that what pastors call good deconstruction?

Which we would say using the scriptures to challenge the ideas and beliefs you hold.

It's just not the commonly it's not the common use of the word 90 % of the people.

95 % of the people.

When they use that word, they don't mean re -analyzing your beliefs in light of Scripture.

They mean trying to tear down your beliefs and move away from Scripture.

Yeah, you list other reasons, but I think that's probably the most and belief in general, you know in that deconstruction space.

They don't want you to land on any kind of belief because if you do you'll just have to deconstruct that yeah.

And then you talk about well.

Well, what if we add an adjective to it.

If we add the right adjective to it, then that will.

Be like healthy deconstruction versus unhealthy deconstruction and you say that that won't help the problem either.

No, we tried actually Tim and I okay when when we were first talking about writing the book.

That's when the John Cooper thing happened.

And that's when we realized.

Oh, there's a hundred different ways People are talking about us.

Maybe we could talk about like a healthy so we tried we couldn't do it.

We couldn't find the healthy deconstruction.

You go in the hashtag you go in the in the spaces where people are talking about it.

Yeah, you cannot find This healthy deconstruction.

Okay.

So what words should we use?

Should it be a word?

Should it be a sentence?

We we advocate for the word Reformation and I don't honestly care what you call it.

You can call it discernment.

You can call it discipleship.

You can call it being a biblical Christian.

We say Reformation is good because you do want to always be reforming your beliefs according to Scripture with the cry of the Reformation

but.

Even that prefix is something that you talk about in the book.

You say there's a difference between D words and three words.

Yes, D words tear down D construct D, you know vol D whatever but recreate

reform.

We these are words that are building up and we want to build up right belief not just tear down for the sake of tearing.

Down.

Yeah.

Yeah every Christian if you live long enough I mean, maybe you get saved and you get into a car accident on the way home.

I don't know, but most of us will go through some period of Reformation, right?

That's just a normal.

Semper Reformanda.

Sometimes it's major like when I came out of the prosperity gospel.

Sometimes it's minor when you're like, oh, I don't know if I'm a continuationist anymore.

But I'm gonna dig into that when I get a little more time.

We are always in some sense just re -evaluating our beliefs in light of Scripture and yeah, I like the word discernment.

It is it's just a good biblical word.

Reformation good, too.

But yeah discernment's a good word.

Yeah.

Yeah, that has my vote in chapter 12.

You give some pretty good advice on how to interact with Christians who perhaps use the word unwisely.

You guys do a little thought experiment, which I really like.

You say Johnny little Johnny.

Little Johnny comes home from youth camp and announces to his Christian parents that he is in

Deconstruction and his parents say thanks for sharing that with us, which by the way, I love how perfect this response is.

I'm trying to think if my daughters came home from Christian camp and said we're deconstructing.

They got like a nose ring.

Probably not I'd be like, uh -huh.

Uh -huh.

Cool.

Cool.

Cool.

Cool.

Cool.

You say thanks for sharing that with us.

What do you mean by deconstruction?

Well, which is a good practice right ask people what they know when someone uses the word woke.

Well, what do you mean by that when someone uses the word prosperity?

What do you mean by that?

What do you mean by construction.

Well, it turns out Johnny heard from some friends that Deconstruction is a way of making sure you believe what's

true for him.

It's a healthy process of thinking through what he's been taught and making his faith his own and then you say

Once you've kind of understood that wrap your arms around how he's using the word then later You want to come back and gently

nudge him?

Hey, maybe there's a better word.

I thought that was really wise.

Yeah.

Well, the reason we used that specific scenario is because that's that specific scenario has happened.

Many times when I speak to youth I do some youth apologetics with like summit ministries

and impact 360.

Okay, and When we talk about deconstruction what I learn is that especially among that age

group that kind of middle school and high school age group.

Yeah.

They a lot of the Christian kids have adopted the language of some of their evangelical leaders who have tried to baptize the word.

And so I've had kid after kid after I give my presentation come up to me and go, you know I would.

I thought that I was deconstructing but now I realize I'm not deconstructing.

I'm just trying to make my faith my own.

I'm trying to you know, evaluate scripture.

I'm trying to learn how to read instead the Bible for myself.

And I was calling that deconstruction, but I'm not gonna call it that anymore.

So I think I've seen the fruit of that conversation many times, especially when you

actually show them.

What is the dominant expression of the word when they get out from under the safety of their Christian homes and yeah limited.

You know social media or whatever they have when they really see what it's like and I show them and then you know in the

talk.

And they're like, oh no, that's not what I'm doing.

Yeah, that's really useful.

Yeah, it happens a lot and you keep bringing up and I'm glad you you do the the the world of

deconstruction online we're gonna talk about that pretty heavily towards the end of the interview because People are basically

falling into two worlds either a healthy local church or really unhealthy online communities.

So we're gonna come back to that.

You you guys talk about the five key elements of most deconstruction.

Which I also just like the word deconversion.

Even that's a little theologically fraught because a truly regenerate heart can't become unregenerate.

But yeah, you say there's people who deconstruct they have a problem with a literal

literal reading of the Bible.

A belief that women are beat to be submissive to men.

A belief in the sanctity of heterosexuality the assumption that the American way of life is best.

And identification and partnership with Political and social conservatism.

Now what I found to be interesting about this is that at least three of these points.

There's a way in which you could say that in which I think we would say a man.

Mm -hmm.

So let's start with the first one.

Yeah a literal reading of the Bible.

Yeah.

Contra Ken Ham.

No, I'm just kidding.

I'm trying to start any beef with Ken Ham.

You interpret the parts of the Bible literally that are meant to be understood literally and you interpret the

poetry.

Poetically and you interpret the allegory.

Allegorically, there's not a lot of allegory, but there is some yeah, and so I mean Isn't that

a good place for you to get in with people who are deconstructing to be to for you to say actually well I don't know that I believe

in a literal interpretation of the Bible either.

Yeah, I think that could be a good doorway because I and there's so much straw manning that happens especially with this

topic in particular because Deconstructionists are some of the most wooden literalists

that you'll ever meet when it comes to what they want to refute from the Bible.

They have no hermeneutical precision.

No, they take everything like they will take everything wooden literal.

Yeah, and then try to debunk the Bible because oh the Bible says something stupid like whatever they think is stupid, right?

Yeah, and so it's interesting that they criticize, you know literalists when they're like

such literalists.

That's a good point.

Yeah, I think.

You know.

That was one of the things when I was coming out of my faith crisis that I really learned about hey.

The Bible employs figures of speech just like we do in everyday language and learning to spot what they are.

The problem though, I think is that sometimes people who accuse Christians of literalism.

They want to turn plain speech into figures of speech.

Yeah.

And and you can't you can't allegorize everything, you know.

It has you have to go with the intent of the author was the author intending to communicate like a parable for example.

You know, Jesus was telling stories that make a spiritual point, right?

And so it's yeah I think this is not literally a door.

He's not a door.

He doesn't have hinges.

It's not made of wood, you know, and.

And sheep, you know, I don't.

I don't have a woolly coat.

Yeah, so it's yeah, it some of it is.

Is a straw man, I think.

Okay.

So the next one a belief that women are to be submissive to men that is biblical.

But I can imagine the way that they understand that is not what the Bible intends.

Right when it uses that language, right?

In fact in most so this I don't know how deep in the weeds we want to go on this but The you know,

there's a debate among Christians about and there's a bit of a spectrum Complementary into egalitarian

that people are gonna land on different places in the spectrum.

You can be a Christian and be egalitarian.

You can yeah, I mean I would shouldn't be I would disagree with an egalitarian, but.

But yeah, we can have that debate based on Scripture.

I know a couple of really great egalitarian scholars even that I've had on my podcast that I disagree with them on that topic.

But they they are to the best of my knowledge trying to get their position out of Scripture, right?

So that's a different conversation than what's going on in the deconstruction hashtag.

So what's happening there is it's really I think built upon a more, you know, if you want to use

the word woke.

Definition of justice which is equal outcome.

So if a woman has a different outcome than a man does in church leadership, that's not just a

theological debate.

That's actually oppression.

That's injustice.

Yeah, the Marxist worldview.

Everyone is either an oppressor.

That's right.

So so and and I've had Sorry, but middle -aged white guys mansplained to

me that I am internally oppressed for holding that view which is hilarious to me.

But so it's it's an injustice and so and then what also ends up happening is you might have somebody who's come

out of a real extreme version of like a real hyper Fundamentalist

IFB where women are basically hated and it is you know I would say that there is some misogyny going on

there and they'll they'll say well This is what all evangelicals believe.

This is what this is what the church teaches whatever their particular experience was.

Yeah, so that gets thrown in there and then also like people like Beth Allison Barr who are basically and she was in

Dumas.

Yeah, Kirsten Dumas.

She like they Beth Allison Barr in her book.

She even says that she skirted the fringes of the Gothard Movement yeah, and she's equating that to

okay.

Well, all evangelicals must believe that and then she's linking that to abuse.

So she says yes Complementarianism as a theology leads to abuse.

So in the mind of the deconstructionist and this is this is really where the post -modernism comes in on just all sorts of different topics

but the you know.

If we define deconstruction as not regarding scripture as a standard what their standard is is really what

they?

Personally feel helped by or harmed by abused or you know.

They're gonna reject what they feel abused by and embrace what they feel affirmed by.

Yeah, and so it's all this this shift of authority from an external authority to an internal one.

Yeah, and so Complementarianism.

Wherever you land on it for them it that is an abusive doctrine.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, it doesn't matter how careful you are.

Right.

Yeah, how nuanced the language is?

Yeah, the third thing is a belief in the sanctity of heterosexuality.

Why does that ruffle their feathers?

Well, that's a big one.

I would say that that's kind of a pillar in the deconstruction movement is that they believe

again getting to the unequal outcome and the perceived oppression is.

That the church oppresses gay people.

That's that's the view.

Yeah, and so if we were to say marriage is between a man and a woman.

Well, that is that's oppressing.

Somebody who might experience some level of same -sex attraction because they've embraced that as a core identity.

Yeah, you know that's obviously from Freud saying our sexuality is our core identity.

We bought that hook line and sinker.

And so of course the deconstructions have bought that.

So if somebody experiences a particular temptation in that area.

That is their core identity.

And then if the church doesn't affirm that then the church is basically saying you can't you know.

Be a part of of us and we reject you which of course is not is not true, you know, but.

Yeah, it's it's it's the perceived oppression.

Yeah, the fourth is the assumption that the American way of life is best.

I don't know any Christian.

No, maybe there would be some Christians who would say that.

I think I would almost say that just depending On what you mean, I think Western civilization is

downstream from a deep reservoir of a biblical worldview.

But no culture is perfect or sinless.

Nobody should ever use superlative language towards any fallen kingdom on this earth.

Yeah, so what would you say to a well, it's it's almost like, you know, cuz this language I think

that what you're reading is coming from Blake Chastain who came up with the ex -evangelical hashtag.

That's what he was saying like these are the pillars of evangelicalism we're leaving basically and.

So when when you talk about American way of life is best, that's how he worded it.

But really if we're honest if you just like America.

They think you're a Christian.

You don't have to be a maga.

You don't even have to be like yeah saying that the American way of life is best.

You just have to be like I love my country.

Yeah Christian nationalists.

You're traded politics for the gospel and.

Wow, you know, so I think there's these people should go live in another country for a while.

Well, and that's the thing.

And then one of the things we say in the book is first of all, my co -authors Canadian.

So like we're not saying we're not saying that.

Yeah, he knows his country sucks.

All right.

Yeah I think he put a line in there.

Like everybody knows Canada's the best, right?

But yeah, so I think there's more going on there.

It's this Perceived idea that evangelicals are you know that

evangelical is synonymous with Republican or maga or something like that?

And yeah, there's no room for nuance in that.

Again, all right.

We're gonna do a compilation video because every episode somebody does.

Let's go.

Number five identification in partnership with political and social conservatism.

And there's just no way you can win on that one, right?

I mean.

I.

Think it was GK Chesterton who defined conservatism.

Like this he says when you when you are out walking in a field and you see a fence.

Rather than saying let's tear it down You first must stop and say I wonder what that fence is there.

Yeah, right now that I butchered that but no that was it.

That was that was at least a close pair close enough, right?

Yeah, the message version of the.

I.

Think that that's a good biblical instinct.

I know that Iterations of conservatism can certainly be unbiblical but going back

to the same impulse with the American way of life.

There's really no way that you can shape that or mold it or say it that they will in any way be able to hear.

It right.

No, I don't think so.

And this is the thing.

Well, let me say this and then I'll get into the hypocrisy of that as well yeah, of

course like we Quote Doug grow ties a great Christian philosopher on conservatism.

And and yeah, I think you're right.

I think now.

Every like you said, there's every kingdom on earth is fallen, right?

This these are there's no perfect political party, right?

But really what that's about is the 2020 election.

In almost every deconstruction story Donald Trump is in there somewhere.

Yeah, and so what I think is going on is that.

They.

What you'll hear a lot in the deconstruction stories is hey Christians were so hard on Clinton.

They wouldn't let him pass morally.

They said, you know, you're you're immoral.

So you got to get out where we're done with you.

But yet they they embrace Donald Trump.

And of course, that's a very broad statement because not every Christian does embrace Donald Trump.

Some voted for him because it was the lesser of two evils in their mind or they.

They liked his policies and they were there was just again.

It's not to bring in nuance but there was.

There's like no nuance in this conversation at all and so anybody who may be voted for Trump or is a

Republican is kind of lumped in with this idolatrous.

Political movement, right.

And and to be fair that there is a real idolatrous political movement.

It does exist.

I've met them.

Yeah, it's a real wild ride.

Yes.

Well, and especially like with what the American Gospel movies are doing that we've been involved.

We've seen that especially in the new apostolic Reformation.

There's a lot of that.

So yeah, we're not denying that there are Christians that are doing that for you just can't collapse every Christian, right?

Yeah, exactly and so I think that's what's going on there, but I mentioned the hypocrisy and I just I did want to just mention this.

Because you know in the whole Christian nationalism conversation some according to the definitions that everybody's

going by some of the most.

You know Christian nationalistic churches or progressive churches who regularly have you know Democratic

candidates come and give stump speeches in their churches didn't then wasn't there a video of that just recently?

Yeah, there was there was one recently and so, you know, it's it goes both ways.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I.

Think about that kind of like the ring like both sides are trying to get the ring of

power.

Sometimes they're doing it from a politically conservative position.

Sometimes they're doing it from a politically progressive position.

But that's the carnal desire underneath it all and sometimes it's wrapped in religious garb.

You know.

Now it's I find it interesting who was the person who wrote these five.

Well, if I'm remembering correctly Blake Chastain was the guy who came up with the ex

-evangelical hashtag and he has the ex -evangelical podcast now.

Okay, and when somebody asked him, what does ex -evangelical mean?

He said well, it's you know, this might change and grow as I as I go, but this is kind of what.

Yeah.

We are leaving.

I think it's interesting that he doesn't list race in here because yeah.

It seems like race is like a huge one, especially after 2020.

Well.

I'd have to look at when he wrote that blog post because it might have been before the whole George Floyd thing before that really.

Was at the forefront of the conversation.

Yeah.

I.

Cannot tell you so.

I was.

In the Christian rap world for a little while a lot of my for a long I went through my own little weird identity crisis.

I grew up around nothing but like Mexicans Filipinos and black kids growing up and then I joined the military moved away

lived in Seattle the whitest city maybe in the world.

And.

And then I moved to Atlanta which you know, maybe the blackest city in the world and

Had a lot of black friends there black Christian friends and I gotta say I think.

Over half of them are not walking with the Lord anymore.

Hmm, and Most of that has happened over the last four or five years.

It started kind of in 2011 by God's grace.

A lot of brothers have persevered.

We don't always agree on race stuffs when we have the conversation, but praise God we can have the conversation

sometimes.

But yeah race stuff has really caused It.

I don't know what the hashtag would be if the broad kind of hashtag is ex -evangelical.

There's kind of what is it leaving loudly?

Jomar Tisby's whole thing.

That was pretty bad.

The idea was very similar to this deconstruction idea, it's we're not walking away from Jesus.

We're just trying to shed the the the white manifestations of Christianity that are unbiblical.

But I don't know a lot of guys who survived that.

Yeah, you know, so yeah.

Well, that's a meshed like the whole critical theory is totally enmeshed in deconstruction.

Yeah.

Yeah like decolonize your theology.

There's a Influencer in the deconstruction space that basically said that you have not

deconstructed until you've decolonized your theology and by decolonize.

She means get rid of blood atonement get rid of biblical authority.

All of these are tools of oppression that the church has used to control people with fear and to prop up white supremacy.

That's kind of the narrative even if if if if being punctual is is a

manifestation of whiteness.

Then atonement is not gonna make yeah.

Logic.

Yeah, two plus two equals four.

You say that the one thing that virtually all deconstruction stories have in common is what they say they're leaving

behind right, so.

They they express an almost well actually start answer that first.

I got carried away.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah, so.

It might be helpful to think of deconstruction like a car.

It's a car you get in to leave a point, okay, but you can go anywhere.

You can end up in Agnosticism.

You can end up in secular humanism.

You can end up surrounded by crystals and chanting, you know Affirmations.

You can end up a progressive Christian.

Yeah.

And that's why I actually think deconstruction is the biggest apologetic challenge We have right now because it truly doesn't matter

where you go as long as you leave these.

Quote -unquote.

Toxic theological beliefs.

Yeah.

And really the toxic theological beliefs are any sort of objective truth statement that you might make because that's an

external authority.

Which is is seen as a power grab.

Yeah.

Yeah, you know.

I couldn't help as I was reading this think of another illustration for the difference between deconstruction and Reformation

when our church burned.

Because one of the things that they it's hard to burn brick.

It's a brick building.

Brick is hard to burn.

That's one of the reasons why people use it.

There's there's a structural engineer who is there this week? who's trying to determine if the damage is significant enough to

just tear it all down or do you just kind of scrape all the Crap out of the inside and then rebuild from within and I

think that's a pretty good picture, right?

A lot of deconstructionists.

They don't care.

They're just trying to tear it all down.

They start like Satan with a little bit like a half of a truth.

But then the goal is to tear the whole building down.

Whereas Reformation is all right, if the bones are sturdy and we want the bones to be sturdy.

Yeah, let's get back in there and rebuild and it's gonna be better than before.

Yeah, and you want to have a shelter, right?

That's the mind of the Reformation is is the house is good.

Yeah, it's good to have a roof over your head and.

Interesting with the house analogy because I don't think this actually made it into the book.

We had to chop like yeah I don't know 10 or 20 ,000 where it was crazy.

We have so much cut so much out.

But you know what it paid off though because the book the pacing is very good. Good. Good.

But I think one of the things that didn't make it in the book is One of the deconstructionists online uses the

house analogy and it's so interesting to hear him talk about How he sees

deconstruction like a house and then basically he says, oh, you know.

You want to turn this big room or you want to knock this wall down and turn that into into two rooms?

But you know what?

It's it's a load -bearing wall.

Now.

The roof is sagging.

So now you just have to tear the whole thing down and I'm like, does he even realize what he's saying?

You can't just knock down any wall.

Yeah, if you want a good house if you want a house that's going to stand and you know shelter you.

You can't just go down knocking walls because you want a room there.

It doesn't work that way as a load -bearing wall.

Yeah, you can't you don't get to just do that and still have a house.

And so it was interesting to me that he would use the house analogy, but even basically out himself as saying.

Well, yeah, I just have to same with the sweater analogy.

I think it was Lisa Gungor that used that analogy.

Yeah, and she's like you pull it this thread because it's itchy you don't like it.

So you pull on it and I thought that was interesting language, too.

Cuz it's like she's not worried about the structure of the sweater.

She just doesn't want that thing right there didn't like it and then she's like and then you don't have a sweater anymore.

I'm like, well, yeah, you don't left naked and you're left naked.

That's right.

That's exactly what she says.

So speaking of Lisa Gungor Gungor Gungor Alisa Alisa tomato potato

All these quotes that you have in the book they are still zealous evangelists.

You say that they express an almost religious zeal to reconvert others.

They are Actively attempting.

I'm combining two quotes here actively attempting to dismantle historic Christianity discredit the church and promote an

atmosphere of faith deconstruction.

We're we're fond of telling our people when we talk about apologetics and evangelism is that everyone is preaching.

Everyone is an evangelist.

I got back from Portland a couple months ago.

The one of the most secular cities in the country could not believe how much preaching there was.

Every window.

Black lives matter in this House, we believe.

XYZ Marches and literal street preachers, you know.

So yeah, I just find it interesting that although they've abandoned Christianity that impulse to evangelize.

To bring people into the faith still exists.

Oh, it's very strong.

In fact, we talked about in the book how Josh Harris who we mentioned before.

He came out with what he called a deconstruction starter pack and for $275 you could take these classes from

him where he could do.

Guys a marketing machine I mean and that's the thing is you you there are deconstruction coaches online.

Yeah construction therapists.

There's all sorts of people who it's an industry happy to take your money.

So to deconstruct your faith for you.

Yeah, I noticed that that that the package he's done.

That's not it's not for free.

He's not really well.

So in all fairness to him, okay, which I don't I shouldn't laugh at this but it's a little bit funny

that he said I'll give this package for free to anybody who was harmed by my

Previous purity culture teachings.

So I think it by the time he took it down because there was a big backlash not from conservatives.

But from the deconstructionists because they were basically like you're the reason I have to deconstruct in the first place.

And now you're gonna charge 275.

That's an interesting racket.

Yeah.

Yeah, so I think like four people might have.

At the time he took it down had had taken the free package.

But but even that shows that there's still something in him that says I need an atonement.

Yeah, you know, right.

Like I know that what I know i've sinned.

And I can't live with that.

I got to do something to purify this.

So here here's a 275 you'll get it for free.

Wow.

Uh.

You talk about the way that deconstruction begins.

And you say it almost always begins with you say.

You say.

I'm, trying to think of a good joke to insert there like it begins with a well now this is not a joke.

This is a little uh, this is a little nature fact that you'll probably appreciate.

I learned the other day that all ants are females.

Did you know that the little insects?

Well, I know.

All honeybees are female.

All ants are.

Yeah, if they were males, they'd be called uncles.

Oh.

Yeah, see you're full of puns and i'm not ready for them.

Knocking it out of the park.

All right, uh.

Always begin with questions because questions are bad.

We shouldn't ask questions.

Right.

No, so yes that uh, yes, they the Many deconstructions begin with questions.

Yeah, but we because of the Nature of that we we have a whole chapter on questions because the

problem with that is that some questions are honest.

And some aren't.

Yeah, that's right.

You say that some people are seeking answers.

Other people are seeking exits.

Yeah.

Some some people ask a question because they truly want to know the answer.

Other people ask a question because they're seeking justification for the unbelief that they're already wanting to hold on to.

And and some we say are unaccepted or unacceptable.

Because what often happens too is like i'm not going to deny that there are church environments that shut questions down.

In fact, that's the thing we say please do a q a.

We'd we'd love for pastors to start doing that.

Yeah.

Um, which as a pastor, by the way, i'm not gonna do.

Yeah, there's just no way.

Thank you for your honesty but you know to foster or maybe even a wednesday night thing or something once in a while to to.

At least send the message that we we want the questions, right?

But the problem is sometimes he did that and we actually talk about tim with that.

Um, but the problem is is that when the when the correct answer is given it's not acceptable.

And so they'll this happened with me with uh, someone in my life who was deconstructing.

She she kept asking questions about textual criticism.

So i'd send her resources.

I would answer the question as best I could.

And then she'd sort of rephrase the question and ask the same question again and I would be confused about how to answer because i'm like well, I just sent her

like three books she could read on this and.

And and I realized after a while.

Oh, she doesn't she doesn't want the answer.

She wants to believe that the bible is this tool of oppression that was written by these guys that want to keep women subjugated.

And that's what she wants to believe.

Yeah, and there's nothing I can do to help her.

Until her heart opens to truth.

Yeah, and so there's that dynamic as well.

And we I mean we know this because of the sin that lives in our own heart.

I mean how many times have we seen the answer god put it there right in front of our face blue, right?

And we just go now green and we just keep denying and denying.

The lord has to come and open our eyes.

We see this in discipleship relationships.

As a pastor it's really tough to be in a lot of counseling situations where people will ask for an answer

and.

Sometimes I just i'm trying to give you wisdom.

This is so complicated.

I'm gonna try to get you to some scriptures, but nothing's like a knockout.

But sometimes i'm like listen, it's literally right here.

It's only like four words sometimes and people will go.

I'm not seeing it.

Yeah.

So, yeah this the the question asker who's not genuinely seeking is a reality we have to

deal with.

It's a reality that jesus had to deal with right?

Yes.

That's right.

Yeah.

Answer a fool according to his folly.

Do not answer a fool according to his folly.

Those two are back to back.

How come because the bible's filled with contradictions, don't you notice?

That's what I was getting at.

Yeah, they're back to back because they're both good advice for different situations wisdom dictates, right?

Sometimes you're going to be in a conversation with someone who's deconstructing and you have to realize.

Oh, i'm actually just casting pearls before swine.

Yeah.

And sometimes you're you'll wrestle with people for a long time and the lord will bless it and they will actually.

Remain in the faith and I even think of like what tim does with red pen logic where he's answering a fool.

According to their folly but for millions of viewers so that they can find clarity as well.

You know russell is one of the best apologists.

He just sort of naturally he's just so gifted at it and uh.

And I would see him get into debates on our defendant confirm.

Stuff sometimes with people and i'd be like bro, you're killing me like you gotta chill out.

And then and I I didn't prepare.

I don't have it pulled up right now.

But there's a section in the book of acts that he sent me where it basically talks about paul debating the

jews uh in front of Others who were edified by the way that

paul handled the scriptures, right?

So that is another category.

It's not just me and my interlocutor.

If i'm using that word correctly, I believe that was correct.

That was good.

I thought that's what I used to see really far away.

Yeah.

Yeah.

My interlocutors.

Yes, that's right.

But so that it's not just you know Me and you it's also there are people watching when we're having these conversations

publicly and they can be really edified equipped strengthened encouraged.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, uh.

You say that deconstruction is like a kind of death.

It's a death for the person who goes through it, but it's also a kind of death for people who Love the person who's

going through it.

Can you speak to that?

Yeah, well in the deconstruction hashtag and in lots of deconstruction stories um, I think one misconception

that some christians have about deconstructionists is that It's just easy.

It's just oh, I don't like this.

I'm going to walk away and a lot of them describe a lot of Emotional anguish.

I mean this was their core identity and I mean that doesn't mean there's not rebellion in there and all sorts of stuff.

But.

It's very agonizing process for a lot of people so it can feel like a death for them also because

Their entire community that has always been their community is going to be different now.

I mean, that's that's huge.

That's a lot yeah, but it can feel like a death for their family, too, and.

Uh.

That that is the thing to me that is the hardest about this whole thing is I meet these

sweet elderly Parents all the time.

This is very common where they'll come up to me tears in their eyes.

We don't know what to do.

We raised our daughter in the church and she's deconstructed.

She won't let us see our grandkids now.

She tells us we're toxic.

I think we start the book with a one of those stories, but that's a very common story that that I come across.

And you can do everything right and that can still happen.

That's right.

I think someone might hear that and think well, yeah, if you raise your kid and you don't disciple them.

Well, and they're not in healthy church.

Well, yeah that doesn't help but you can actually knock it out of the park and that's right.

Yeah, and people grow up all kinds of ways.

People grow up with atheist parents and become strong christians.

So, you know, you know exactly so, uh, I always try to minister that to them.

But it can feel like a death because in many cases The impetus to disconnect

from your church community and even your blood family Is so strong because they truly believe you.

You are an unsafe harmful person.

Not just that you have these fuddy -duddy, you know old -fashioned beliefs.

But that you are actually harming people when I go home on thanksgiving.

I have to confront my family members about their oppression.

Yeah, and and if they won't listen, then I have to cut them off.

I've had people tell me.

Yeah, and there are oh my goodness so many threads in the deconstruction hashtag about what to do at thanksgiving.

How do you handle thanksgiving?

Yeah, and and uh, yeah, so it can feel that way.

Especially in many cases they receive a no contact letter.

Yeah, i've met people.

Yep.

We got a no contact letter.

We're not allowed to Reach out.

We're not allowed to text.

We're not allowed to you know, ask how they're doing and this is really painful for a lot of

Christian parents and I mean, oh and the relationship dynamics.

It could be a spouse.

It can be a best friend.

It can be.

Uh, you know, I had a high school girl stand up in a q a and ask me How

to navigate her parents deconstruction.

Like how do I honor them?

But yeah.

Keep faithful to jesus.

Wow.

Uh, you know, I I can't help but compare Uh someone who's deconstructing going home for the holidays

and some friends that I have number of them with children who have abandoned the faith

and the different ways that they Handle that when they come together and try to be a family Uh, one of

my friends in particular Is so desperate To show mercy and grace

to this wayward child at the same time maintain healthy boundaries for the

sake of the family, um, and honestly for the testimony of the gospel Whereas

very often the deconstructing there's no grace.

There's no mercy.

It's kind of like listen I figured this out and i'm bringing the law and if you don't submit and if you don't

repent immediately, we're done.

You're getting cut off.

Yeah.

Which is again, it just goes back to this like actually I don't think I think you're the harsh one.

Yeah in this scenario, you know what's interesting about that is.

When we were preparing for this book tim and I reached out to several deconstructionists to try to have a private

zoom call.

Yeah, and some did and we were very thankful that we got to just you know, ask them questions and try to

Characterize this correctly, but we had one who responded basically like I will not speak to you because of your

beliefs.

I won't even have that discussion.

Yeah, because you are you are toxic and.

And I think the word was because of your worldview.

I won't even have a discussion with you.

Have you seen that chart where it walks through critical theory and it's basically compares like

Every aspect of that religion with the christian religion and how they're basically the same, you know.

Uh, what what is the world?

How should we live?

What is sin?

How do we make atonement and as you go down through?

What every they both have the same categories, but one is filled with hope.

Grace is real.

Redemption is possible.

The other one is just the burden the burden of the law.

You just never come out from under that, you know, it's it's crippling.

Yeah.

Uh, and I feel bad for some people for a lot of people who have deconstructed.

But they've not really deconstructed from christianity.

They've deconstructed from one kind of workspace religion to another kind of workspace religion.

And so in some sense, it wasn't even that hard of a transition for them because they never even really tasted grace.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right.

I can i'm rambling now.

This is your interview.

Not mine.

It's good.

You say that virtually every deconstruction story speaks of a trigger event or several trigger events.

Can you elaborate on that?

Yeah, so we were trying to figure out Why.

The question we started with was why can there be two people?

That grow up in the same house go to the same church have the same pastors have the same summer camp experiences.

Same mission trip experiences.

And then some kind of a crisis can happen and one walks away and one walks closer to the lord.

What's the what's the answer to why that is?

Yeah, and so what we came up with you mean from a secondary cost perspective, right?

Exactly.

Of course, of course.

Yes.

So it's like i'm thinking of jacob and esau.

Yeah, right um, right um, so so what is what are what's going on,

you know, and so what we think about is Someone's foundation and this is maybe where this

will circle into to your comment just here.

Um I think there are a lot of people who grew up in the church

grew up in christian families.

Believed even some of the right things demons believe the right things, right?

Um, I think my sister was an example of somebody like this.

My sister did not become a christian until she was an adult.

Oh, um, she.

She was probably I want to say maybe late 20s early 30s.

Okay.

Went through a horrible, um, you know, this is when we were living in la goth industrial.

Yeah, you know drugs.

Alcoholic hardcore.

Yeah, and and she she will say like I wasn't a christian before.

Yeah, but she might have believed the right things gone along with christian culture might have even thought she was a christian.

Yeah, so I think there's a lot of that and so that's what we call the foundation.

Is what is the person's faith foundation?

Um.

Did they actually believe that all these things were true or did they believe in jesus did they trust in jesus for

their salvation?

So I think there's a lot of that going on um, so that's the foundation and then the crisis can be.

Lots of different things it could be the death of a loved one.

It could be church hurt.

It could be the moral failing of their pastor the mishandling of the moral failure of their pastor perceived hypocrisy in

the christians in their lives.

And for the person who is saved.

They're they're going to.

God is going to use that in their life to build them stronger.

Even if for a season there's doubt there's all sorts of stuff.

Yeah, but then you have somebody who didn't have that foundation.

And so that crisis is going to and then it can be compound crisis, you know, it could be a lot of different things altogether.

Um.

And that's the best I could come up with it because I I know people that have Been through the same exact church

hurt.

Yeah, and one walks away and one gets stronger.

Yeah, and so I think it's it's the intersection of the foundation and then the crisis triggering

events.

Yeah.

Wow.

That's really good.

And you can have a triggering event with the person Who is you know who has trusted in jesus?

And it can send them wobbling.

I mean for sure and they could go through like what I went through where I I just didn't even know what I believed.

Um, but I there there does seem to be a crisis that triggers it.

I went through something kind of similar to that.

Uh when when I first.

When uh when I got saved I was a drug dealing gangbanger and uh, I got pretty

powerfully saved radical transformation overnight.

But then I tried to go to church and In the christian south.

I mean I had gold teeth with vampire fangs.

It was kind of wild.

And it did not go well and the first person who discipled me taught me the prosperity gospel.

And I got deep in the prosperity gospel and I I so closely associated the gospel and walking with

jesus with what was essentially a cult.

Uh that when I left the prosperity gospel, thank you.

John piper for the video that you put on the internet.

Very helpful.

Uh.

And thank you lord for your word more importantly in your holy spirit in your church.

Uh, that was the event that That sent my head spinning right leaving the

prosperity gospel and it got so bad That for a little while I was entertaining Jehovah's

witnesses.

They were coming.

They come they came by my house and I was like sure why not come in.

Tell me why the trinity isn't biblical.

Uh, interestingly your husband, uh, by the way, what's your husband's name?

Mike.

Mike.

He told me that earlier, but I forgot.

Sorry, Mike.

Uh.

Mike kind of being like hey, we're done.

Yeah, my wife kind of did that.

We were I think we met with him for like six or seven weeks.

And finally one day she basically like hit me upside the head.

She was like, what are you doing?

And while they were there we just shut it down, um.

So praise god for that, but it could have gone another direction, right?

So so which which is which gets back to what I brought up earlier primary and secondary

causes.

Secondary causes what we can see right from from the human perspective, but underneath that.

It's nothing but the sovereign grace of god.

Yeah.

Why jacob and not esau.

Why?

Judas.

You know, why why peter and not judas?

Well, it's all a grace, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So we actually already talked about uh, the difference between reformation and deconstruction.

Let's come back to that because there's a great illustration in the book that I want to talk about.

Uh.

You talk about two different paintings.

Oh the salva.

Salvatore mundi and the uh, I think it's ecce homo.

I want to say it with a spanish accent.

Yeah.

So tell us about that.

Okay, so I don't know if you remember.

Several years ago this went viral and I could not stop laughing.

Yeah, so hard because what happened was in spain, I believe it was in spain.

There was a fresco of jesus an old fresco of jesus that had been Uh dilapidated over the

years and just you couldn't really so so a local woman Took who's not a professional artist took it upon herself to

restore the painting now.

You can look this up and I encourage everybody.

Oh, I did.

It's hilarious.

Okay homo.

Yeah, and what she what she did was I I think I wrote in the book Um, it looked like

picasso got drunk and drew a proboscis monkey with his left hand, you know um, and Which

picasso was right -handed by the way, I looked that up to be sure but with picasso, you know.

He's all two eyes on the same side of the face.

Come on, buddy.

Look around.

Yeah, right.

Anyway, so it's just it's hilarious and it went viral because it was so it was just so funny and now it's kind of this

Tourist spot where people will go see it and there's merch you can buy a mug or something.

You know, it may be the best thing that ever happened to that painting that I agree for different reasons, right?

Um, but With uh, the other one the salvador mundi.

This was what is being referred to as the lost leonardo.

So this was a painting the male mona lisa.

Yeah, the male mona is a beautiful painting a lot of art scholars thought it might have been uh

attributed to leonardo da vinci and so um, I can't remember her name off the top of my head, but

the The art restorer she was this professional and it took her I mean if you watch you can watch the documentary on this

the painstaking process of her just slowly barely touching it to remove the the because there was some um,

Warping and there was some varnish that was added.

So just the careful I mean Uh, I I think it was years of just removing the little things and

then just barely touching it with her hand trying to restore.

What was actually there?

Yeah, and so, uh, and it ended up selling for like it was the highest selling painting in history.

Yeah, I couldn't believe how much it sold.

I don't remember what the number was.

Hundreds of millions.

Yes hundreds of millions.

And uh now it's disappeared.

People don't know like who bought it or where it is.

It's all mysterious.

Maybe on a boat.

Yeah.

Like some chic or something.

But she um, she really believed it was a leonardo da vinci and so did many others.

Now that's been contested and they go back and forth about it, but.

Um, but for the sake of your illustration.

Yeah her the point of it though was the other lady just slapped some paint on and just well.

He probably looked like this, you know, and with with this one.

It was like this painstaking process of trying hard to not be seen as the restorer.

I want just what originally was painted to be the only thing that comes through and that was the goal.

And so deconstruction seems to be more like.

The.

Ecce homo, you know, let me fix your christianity.

And you know x this out and and then it just is not a beautiful thing anymore.

Whereas reformation is more like what?

Modestini was her name the art restorer.

Yeah.

I can't remember her first name, but it was modesty.

You know what she did was what we should do as reformation if there have been things that have covered up the gospel

or marred.

The you know your your understanding of the scriptures.

Let's let's remove those things and let's restore the beauty of the gospel and the word of god.

And and so I thought that was such a great picture.

Yeah, I think so too.

I thought it was great.

Okay, so let's talk about toxic theology.

Ah the word toxic it has made its way into our Vocabulary.

I hear people using it all the time.

Uh when it comes to toxic theology, you say it's a catch -all term that's being used to describe any doctrine

that one deems harmful.

And harmful is in terms of Power, right.

Who's using this as a means of power to suppress?

Justice and thriving and well -being.

Yeah, this comes from post -modernism.

So This is this is how I try to help people understand this most

post -modern people.

It's not that they necessarily would deny that there is an objective truth.

But they just wouldn't say it can be known especially when it comes to religion and morality.

So most people don't walk around like relativists.

They go to the bank.

They expect their money to be there.

They you know obey traffic lights.

There's objective truth that can be known but when it comes to religion and morality.

The post -modern person has put those more in the category of like what's your favorite sports team?

What kind of ice cream?

Do you like what's your favorite dessert your favorite meal?

This is the nancy piercey upper story, right?

Yeah, so nancy piercey building on the work of francis schaefer kind of did it like a house in total truth, right?

Yeah, total truth.

That's right.

So there's upper story in a lower story lower story is facts and logic.

This is public truth.

Everybody has access to but then in the upper story you have like your favorite flavor of ice cream preferences opinions.

Yeah, well our culture has put religion and morality in the upstairs basically.

So it's not and it should be with facts and science and logic and all that but it's not it's with opinion

and preference, so.

Here's how I try to help people understand it is if you're post -modern and you truly don't believe.

That absolute truth about religion or morality can be known.

Then when the christian comes along claiming to know what it is and telling you what you need to believe to be saved.

Then you're not even interacting.

On the level of well, is that true what they're saying because you don't even think that can be known that truth could be known.

So you're immediately going to go to motive well, why would they be saying that well.

The church must have invented the doctrine of hell to control people with fear the church uses Uh this idea

that you're a sinner and you need substitutionary atonement.

To keep people in the fold to prop up their institution to make sure you don't leave to make sure they keep control over you.

Yeah, and and I think there it's an outflow also of this whole idea.

Flowing out of marxism that you know, it's not humans that corrupt the institutions.

It's the institutions that corrupt humans and so basically it boils down to whether or not you think people are sinners or not.

Yeah, and so it's sort of built on that.

People are naturally good.

They're morally good.

And if you just left them alone, they would do good things.

Yeah, exactly.

So that's really what that's all coming from.

So any kind of objective truth claim that christians would make That they say you have to believe this too

is toxic because That's authoritarian.

You're just trying to keep control over me.

You don't want me to Be my truest self or whatever wording they might use.

Yeah.

Uh.

So much of this comes back to post -modernism and and really critical theory, which uh, have

Reified post -modernism.

Have you read helen pluck rose and jame lindsey cynical theories.

Cynical theory?

So good, yeah, and they even have a simplified version because you can't give that book to everybody.

It's a little too academic that paired with uh.

The truman book.

Yeah, it really goes a long way.

Yes, and he has a simpler version of that one, too.

Yeah, strange new world.

I was thankful for yeah.

Give away the the thin version of the pluck rose lindsey book along with brave new world to anyone.

Who's really trying to think through these things carefully?

That's not about your book, but that's no.

I agree.

That's a good recommendation.

I agree.

Yeah.

You you you guys do a really good job of simplifying things throughout the book and I thought this section was helpful.

You say that The deconstruction project works in three simple steps.

Step number one identify a problem in society.

And that word problem maybe could even be put in quotation marks, right?

Whatever you deem to be a problem.

Uh.

We'll just put capitalism in there.

That's right.

To show how the church actively endorsed or passively allowed in justice.

Which would be the problem.

And then three conclude that hundreds of years of participation in white supremacy patriarchy and nationalism have

warped white Evangelical theology such that it needs to be fundamentally Reimagined.

Yeah.

That's very succinct, isn't it?

Very succinct.

And that actually um is coming from neil shenvey's work so yeah neil's the one

who and we're quoting him there because he um wrote an article and He put it so

simply like that and I was like that is really good and that's really when I started to.

When I read that from neil or it might have even been something he said on my podcast I can't remember where we quoted it from it's in the book.

It'll be footnoted in there.

But um,.

But it was it was so clear like that is exactly what happens like the perceived problem might be capitalism right in

quotes, right?

And well if the church maybe used capitalism to promote injustice.

Well, then now it's connected to all of this oppression that is and everything is white is like white supremacy.

That's the problem underneath all of it.

And so you can almost get to that from anywhere.

Yeah, like any perceived problem.

That's right.

Yeah.

It's a pretty interesting setup.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Uh, do you read much thomas soul?

You know, I have not.

I've heard in like a couple of talks that he's done but I need to.

I know I need to.

I just haven't yet.

Uh, I would start with.

There's a book called a conflict of visions.

It's probably his most important work.

Uh, he basically goes Why is it that people who trend what we would call liberal?

And other people who trend what we would call conservative tend to always line up on the same side of debate so like.

You know that if someone's liberal they're going to have a problem with capitalism.

They're going to have a problem with heterosexuality.

They're going to be pro lgbt.

Uh, and you can just you can just I can just tell you exactly what they're going to believe and yeah.

Very rarely.

Do you find someone who like believes this but not that?

And he he basically does I think it's just really good common grace reasoning the bible gets you there.

He doesn't go get to the bible.

I don't think he's a christian, but he basically says it's due to our anthropology if you think that human beings

are Fundamentally good and that human nature is fundamentally good and that we can we can always trend

towards The good which how do you define that?

That's another question.

Then you're gonna tend to have this view of the world and that's going to lead to these conclusions.

But if you distrust human nature because you think it's flawed or sinful.

Then you're gonna trend towards these views and then you know, he enumerates them.

I kind of butchered that but well worth.

Well worth the time to read because it's it is interesting that whenever you read through like point number three white supremacy

patriarchy.

Nationalism capitalism sexuality like they always line up together.

Yeah.

Yeah moving on.

Uh.

In chapter nine you say that deconstruction is more like a vivisection.

I think my wife had one of those with our second daughter.

Um.

No, that's a c -section.

That would not be good I think.

You said that deconstruction is more like a vivisection than a dissection.

What do you mean by that?

This was kind of a fun part to write about because in my original another gospel book I had taught compared

deconstruction to dissections like um, you know dissecting the parts of of something like in

uh,.

Anatomy and biology like yeah, you do a fetal pig or something.

Yeah, and so tim was a high school science teacher and he said, you know I I think we need to talk about vivisection

because with dissection you're cutting apart a dead thing.

It doesn't matter if you puncture a lung or you nick an artery.

Because the thing is dead.

Yeah, and when you know, if the christian faith were like that, then yeah hack it apart who cares?

But it's actually a living thing.

Yeah, so vivisection is more like experimental surgery where you're very careful yeah, you know you you got to be careful not to nick an

artery not to puncture a lung or Slash a muscle or something like that because the thing that you're

operating on has value.

Yeah, you're trying to preserve it.

You're trying to preserve it and fix what's wrong.

And so in deconstruction so often it's like The value is not really assigned to the thing.

So yeah, they're just hacking it apart and there's no.

Um.

Value given to to what they're tearing apart in the first place.

Yeah, so speaking of uh,.

Caring about this this thing that we're taking a scalpel to.

Uh, you guys talk.

I'd never heard this before.

I thought I mean and I felt like I have but I haven't heard it the way that you guys said it.

You you you talk a lot about how faith is relational not informational.

Uh, what's the difference there?

Well, I think it's it's.

A lot of christians maybe don't understand grace, you know grace is unmerited favor.

It's like every false gospel is a workspace gospel.

We want to earn it.

We want god to look down and be like I see you, you know, you're you're doing such good work over there.

I'm gonna pick you for my team, you know, you'd be a good asset.

I'm really lucky to have you.

Yeah, exactly.

Like I don't know if it's all the 90s rom -coms or the disney movies.

Where we're just like we want to be noticed.

But um, I think you know, it's a misunderstanding.

Of.

Of grace.

And I I lost the question.

I just forgot.

Yeah, the faith being relational versus relational, right?

Yeah, that's right.

So, um.

When I think a lot of christians kind of alluded to this before they believe that jesus died on the cross for

their sins.

They believe that Jesus even is the messiah.

Yeah, they believe that christianity is true.

They believe that the bible is the word of god, but they've never trusted in christ.

Yeah for themselves and that's intellectual ascent.

Right.

It's intellectual such they checked the right boxes and I think we see that.

A lot in the deconstruction movement and this is the interesting thing if you listen To

deconstruction story after deconstruction story.

I still have never heard one.

Where and and sean mcdowell whenever he talks on his podcast with people who have deconstructed he always asks them this

question.

Okay, like what was your conversion?

Tell me about your conversion and he'll tell his story of being convicted of his sin.

Crying out to jesus to save him from his sin repenting that like save me, uh, you know in sackcloth and ashes.

And they never have that right.

It's it's like well, I knew jesus.

Jesus was my buddy or.

Um, he was real to me.

I went to church my whole life.

I went to church.

I believed all the things.

But you have to listen very carefully.

But it's the relational aspect and and the one that came the closest I think was rett mclaughlin.

I don't know if you heard his like three hour deconstruction story.

He was.

Well, he and uh rett and link of the good mythical morning.

They had a very viral deconstruction story.

They were crew member.

I mean they missionaries with crews heard of them.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay, and it was really um that his deconstruction story rattled a lot of people.

Okay, and one of the reasons was because he did such a good job of describing his relationship with jesus.

But it was so interesting because he's talking about how much he really knew jesus.

He knew jesus jesus.

You know, I prayed all the time.

I did this but then he gets to the end of his deconstruction story.

And he's basically saying he doesn't even think jesus was resurrected.

So who does he think he was talking to?

And so if you really listen carefully, then you'll get the language that there wasn't that relationship.

Yeah, you know now deconstructionists lose their minds when we say things like this because they say absolutely I was a christian.

Um, well, how can you have a relationship with a person who's not real.

That's right.

Have to in some sense.

And I think honestly no matter where you land on the you know, the calvinist or non -calvinist side of the

aisle I think it'd be very hard to make a case that people who fully walk away and stay

walked away were ever truly Saved.

They went out from among us because they were not.

Yeah with us.

Yeah.

Um.

Man, there's there's so many threads I could I could pull out there because.

Uh, wow, that's that's really rich.

Let me just go to actually something you say in the book that I think is a pretty good illustration of this point.

You're making.

You use this illustration you say re -evaluating the belief that your spouse is faithful Is different from say

taking a second look at the belief that your car gets 25 miles per gallon.

Both examine a belief but the former is tied to a relationship.

That's right.

That was so good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, so if you think of.

Um, like a marriage relationship.

And this is where I think it makes the point about the relational aspect that's missing from so many deconstruction stories is.

You know, um and tim wrote a section about even his wife like loving my wife.

It's like if I say my wife's name is stacy.

She has blonde hair right and she's a mom of three.

It's like she's gonna be like dude.

Like do you even know me?

Did you just find me on facebook and read that's the most you know, like benign, you know

description but then he says but now if I describe her and he goes into detail about who she is and And what

her her thoughts and feelings and loves and the talents and all the things about her.

Well now, you know, okay.

He actually has met his wife, right?

And so, um very often in the deconstruction stories it's like they're approaching it not

like it's a Relationship.

Yeah, and and in the cases of the ones that are there's that great grief and pain.

Yeah, that's right.

Uh, I remember what I was gonna say earlier.

Hearing you talk about people's testimonies and what's noticeably absent makes me think about

just certain membership interviews i've had.

So If you want to join our church We have you go through membership classes and then we have a membership

interview.

Which is you know, we don't put you under a heat lamp, you know grill you like the spanish inquisition.

We just want to make sure to the best of our abilities that you are actually a christian.

We ask to hear your understanding of the gospel and we also ask to hear your testimony.

We write it down.

Um.

And.

Yeah, there have been times where many times where people have come in and their testimony I say hey give me your testimony and by

the way if you just go if you if you come to church with us on a sunday and we Go out to lunch and nobody at our church knows you you're gonna share

your testimony and so often we hear stories like.

Yeah, you know, uh grew up in the church and my dad was a deacon and.

You know, I was really active in the youth group and then I was active in a group in college.

And then I found you guys online.

Yeah, you know, yeah now sometimes Uh people tell their testimony like that because they've been poorly discipled

right.

Sure if.

You know, sometimes even with your children.

They're telling you a story and you gotta you know what they're trying to say, but you're right.

They're not good with words.

Yeah, they're not good with words.

And so you got to kind of help them and we've had that where.

It's like yeah, but what about conviction of sin the lordship of christ, you know?

Oh, yeah.

Well, I had this experience and then you kind of get there.

But uh, sometimes people don't have those categories at all because they're they're not christians they haven't understood

the gospel and.

And uh, and i'm sure that that's a lot of what you hear in these deconstruction stories.

Yeah, it is and I think too with the Rise of the seeker sensitive mega church

model over the last 50 years or so, I think it's just It's prime environment for

that kind of a thing to happen where people really think they're christians because they go to church and yeah.

They're part of things and they're involved.

It's experiential.

Yeah, and there are different iterations of this throughout history.

So you take for example the second great awakening trying to re -engineer revival.

A lot of people after that professed to be christians just because they hadn't experienced, you know.

They're at the anxious bench and people were yeah, and that's how mormonism got gained so much steam from

that.

Uh.

Ian murray in his fantastic book revival and revivalism calls that whole section of new england That

was affected by the second great awakening the burned over district.

Uh because the gospel went the the the the movement went through and basically like inoculated

people to the gospel.

Oh, wow, and then out of that came joseph smith and a lot of bad fruit a lot of bad fruit came from that.

Uh.

You had to probably sift through a lot Of really nasty anti

-gospel propaganda while researching this book.

When when I wrote with mike mckinley our book on the prosperity gospel I told mike I said man if you want to use.

Uh, like if you want direct quotes and stuff.

I'm, not going to go back and read a bunch of td jake's books and joel watch joel osteen sermons.

I just I don't think I have it in me.

I don't want to.

Uh.

I imagine that must have been really hard for you.

It was very hard.

Yeah, it was is very dark.

I even felt it a little bit while I was reading the book.

I felt like this feels like spiritual warfare.

Yeah, I remember when I would have to spend a day in the hashtag I'd be

asking people to pray for me like I gotta go into this hashtag today and it was like It is this is the thing.

I always try to give people hope with too.

Is that it is such a dark?

You want to talk about toxic?

It is such a dark and toxic just hopeless place.

Um that it gives me hope that I don't know.

I this is the a theory I have that perhaps god in his sovereignty Is using this

To bring people back to him that never were with him.

Yeah, they get to the bottom of that darkness and see what life is really like without The nice christian

stuff they got to experience growing up and maybe we'll see some kind of revival.

I don't know but it is so dark and toxic.

Yeah, it was it was not it was not fun.

It was definitely A sacrifice it was a labor of love.

I did not enjoy it.

Yeah.

Uh your theory I think it's biblical.

It reminds me of first corinthians five, uh.

You know handing them over to satan some of those people who are handed over were probably never actually christians.

There's a hebrew six connection here and here somewhere the rains that fall and such but uh,

Depending on how you interpret hebrew six They're they're being handed over to satan.

So again thinking about this pastorally I'm thinking about people that we have had to discipline out of membership in our church.

And one of the things that we often say in our members meetings is pray that as they are sent back out into the world.

And they experience the harsh ugly painful World that is out there that they will then

come to their senses because it is the realm of satan.

It is his kingdom.

It is harsh.

It is nasty.

There is no grace there's a reason why uh.

You know, it's nature is red in tooth and claw.

It's it's it's fierce out there.

Yeah.

Yeah, I pray that right there along with your sister.

Um.

Had a question lost it.

It wasn't planned.

Oh I'm back better than ever.

Uh I noticed, uh, listen, I get it.

You can't say everything that needs to be said in a book and maybe you had this.

Maybe this is one of the 20 000 words that you guys cut out.

But I noticed that spiritual warfare doesn't factor in here at all.

Have you thought about spiritual warfare and connection and deconstruction at all?

Yeah, we actually did have a little paragraph or two about it that made it in that did make it in.

Yes.

You must have missed it.

It's okay.

I read every word.

I believe you but you know.

You always you can't always remember and it was just a small little thing.

Um, yeah, we we did mention that and really how you know, of course me coming from more of the charismatic side of things I

always thought spiritual warfare was like binding demons and you know the the what we called power encounters in in the

book and.

Is that where the guys tear the phone books in half?

Oh the power team.

Oh, I love the power team.

I loved those guys.

Um, but you know and and certainly I want to be careful and say this too We're not denying that demons exist in the

you know Supernatural because sometimes when we say this people are like, oh, but demons are real.

It was like yeah, no, we're not saying demons are not real.

But when the bible talks about spiritual warfare the primary way it talks about it is more like truth encounters.

That's right.

Not not necessarily power encounters.

It's truth encounters.

It's speaking truth into the lies.

And so, um, yeah, there there is.

There was a lot of spiritual warfare where I would have to sit there and say i'm going to just be faithful

consistent speak the truth know what I you know know what's true about god and about who wins

and and just continue and just be you know, uh, I I think some of the

Best spiritual warfare is just faithfulness just being consistent.

Yeah, that's right.

Uh going back to people who want to Not not give nuance, you know, you're saying demons aren't

real.

When you look at Spiritual warfare in the bible it is inextricably connected to truth

claims.

Yeah, right it is.

Satan is the father of lies.

Yes.

Jesus calls the pharisees sons of their father because they are twisting scripture.

So yeah, that that's it's not a juxtaposition.

It's not an either or right.

It is a both and whenever someone's preaching a false gospel.

You are having a power encounter.

Nobody may be falling out.

Nobody's going to be bound.

Yeah, there are demonic forces at work uh, and uh, you know people who

minister in more Animistic societies have different experiences with demonic forces, but in our highly

intellectual world.

Yeah, that's often how it manifests.

Yeah, I agree.

Um.

You have a section in here, which I thought was very good again pastorally.

I'm, just interpreting.

I'm reading this book through through the lens of of how i'm gonna be using this book.

Which by the way, I am going to be using it.

I've already recommended it to several people.

Um.

You have this really good pastoral section about how we should treat those who are Deconstructing

and you say that we need to treat them Uh with love and respect and then you go to

talking about How the bible addresses doubters and I thought this was really sweet.

You just you just quote jude 22 Have mercy on those who doubt.

Yeah, and then you talk about second timothy chapter 2 verses 25 and 26 where you talk about

How those who are in deconstruction are actually captives?

Second timothy 2 25 and 26 correcting his opponents with gentleness That god may

perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth And they may come to their senses and escape from the

snare of the devil.

Devil Excuse me after being captured by him To do his will.

Yeah, you want to elaborate on that?

Yeah.

Well, I think one of the reasons we wanted to put that in there is because Tim and I have both experienced doubt

personally.

Um, you know, we we tell a little bit of our stories in the book as well.

And i'm so thankful for jesus response to doubters.

Think about john the baptist.

I mean, I know there's some debate over whether or not that was actually doubt.

But I mean he was yeah, I think he was doubting.

Are you really the messiah?

I mean and john I mean if you think of if there's one person in all of history who should not doubt it would be john.

Because he encountered the entire trinity with his senses.

He saw the son of the spirit of god to send like a dove heard the audible voice of god.

And touched the son.

I mean with his hands, you know.

Good job.

I'm, not messing that up, by the way.

Thank you.

I.

Have worked on that.

But I mean he encountered the trinity like nobody else really has.

And yet he's in herod's prison cell and any doubts and jesus is so ten.

Jesus doesn't shame him.

He doesn't say Oh, you know john just read your bible or you should just believe and don't ask those questions around

here.

You know jesus dude you baptized me come on exactly but he he Referenced his miracles.

He gave him evidence and and he was so merciful to him.

And so I think that um, That's one thing that a lot of christians I think

maybe we could improve on is giving people a little bit of space.

Yeah for doubt because when I was in my really heavy times of doubt There were a couple of different people in my life.

I didn't talk about it a lot I didn't tell a lot of people because I didn't want anyone else to lose their faith.

I think that's wise.

And uh yet I had one person who was very fearful every time I would just well, what about.

Oh, it was just it was fear.

Yeah, and I didn't want to talk to that person.

Yeah, but I had another person in my life That was just really relaxed about it and didn't like force me to come to a conclusion

like right then and there and so I think christians maybe you know, we can learn the frustrating thing though is

We have to diagnose if the doubt is honest or not.

And that's the tough thing because like my doubt was really honest I just I really wanted I wanted christianity to be true.

Yeah, I just I needed some some evidence I needed to know what the evidence was.

But they're like we talked about earlier.

There are some people who it's not an honest question.

It's not honest doubt and they just want to justify their unbelief senior goes off to college starts sleeping with his girlfriend comes

home.

Exactly, uh tells his youth pastor.

I don't just don't think i'm an atheist.

Yeah.

And uh, lest anybody watching.

Uh, any of our viewers think that that's sort of uncharitable and a caricature.

It is a very common experience.

It's very common and in almost every deconstruction story sex.

Or sexuality is in there somewhere.

Yeah, that's right.

Um.

See, this is one of the issues with going along with interviews is I had another question.

But my mind is fading and I lost it somehow.

Uh.

I think it's important to remember.

Well, even when you're talking about heresy, there's a big difference between someone in your church.

Who you find out believe something incorrect and someone who's teaching that which is incorrect.

The same thing is true with deconstruction, right?

There's a big difference between someone in your church who may be wrestling with this and who may be going down the wrong path.

And someone who like is a deconstruction coach or who's trying to lead people down this path of

deconstruction, right?

We have to handle those two things differently.

Absolutely.

It's yeah, I heard one of the best ways of putting that.

About heresy was philip carey in his little book about the nicene creed.

Okay, and I mean this is a paraphrase but it was basically like heresy isn't accidentally saying something wrong, right?

Heresy is being corrected and persisting in false doctrine.

Yeah, that's right.

If you say that the father descended on jesus accidentally and.

Yeah, right.

Yeah I'm, not a christian though.

I one time baptized somebody just in the name of jesus.

I left completely the father and the son just out of it.

Right, right.

Yeah, we all say, you know incorrect imprecise things.

No, but it's a sustained right.

Yeah.

And so, uh, this is where I think we bring in the conversation where jesus calls people wolves.

Yeah, and um I've received a lot of heat and criticism for quoting jesus on this.

But I my thing is just you know, take it up with jesus because he's the one who decides.

He took a lot of heat and criticism how that goes, right?

And and he says there will be people you you'll creep in it's like these are people who are not coming from the outside.

These are people in the church.

And you will recognize them by their fruits and of course the fruit of obedience not the fruit of good feelings like the progressives.

Want to make it?

Um, but do you know is there fruit of obedience, but people who are actively Evangelizing people.

And trying to take them away.

I mean it is so Unreal some of the things i've seen in that hashtag.

I remember A comment thread where a person came on and they said you guys I

think I finally don't believe in hell anymore and the the Overwhelming

encouragement from everybody praise, you know, I mean I they didn't say praise god, but the equivalent of that just like

oh We're so happy for you.

Isn't it?

Wonderful.

Are you free?

No, you're truly free and all of these comment after comment just Congratulating this person for finally making

it to the place of enlightenment where they can let go of the doctrine of hell.

And and the coaches and all the people are are right there cheering everybody on yeah and selling

their books and and oh, yeah.

Yeah, they're profiting from that too.

Uh, you have a section in the book where you talk about Helping christians to learn how to doubt.

Well, i'm sure that that idea is scary for some people.

Especially if they were brought up in certain church and faith environments.

I think it's super wise.

Uh.

It should never be nobody should ever go.

When a christian says hey i'm wrestling with this I mean i'm a pastor and I think in one of our executive sessions

Which is where once the elders meeting is basically done with we just kind of have our accountability stuff.

I told the guys I think i'm struggling with some doubt about something, you know and nobody should be aghast at that.

Doubt is something that If if a christian tells me they've never doubted any aspect of their faith.

I think now we have a sincerity problem.

Yeah, I don't think you're being honest with me.

It reminds me of like in counseling you tell especially in premarital counseling.

You don't tell people you're not going to fight when you get married.

If you tell them that right you're setting them up for.

Yeah.

There's a disillusionment and disappointment.

What you really do is you say listen, you're a sinner.

She's a sinner.

He's a sinner, whatever.

Uh marriage is hard.

You're in a fallen world.

God's going to be sanctifying you and some of that's going to come through fighting.

So what you really have to do is you have to learn how to fight.

Well.

Yeah, right fight like christians.

Yeah, and that's that's essentially what you're saying about doubting.

Yeah.

So, how do we learn to doubt?