Responding to Orlando

Greetings and welcome to the dividing line. Let me get out of the way. What might be distracting to some of you who watch

Yes, I am aware that my eye is all puffy I hope that's not a distraction to you.

It's Not as much of a distraction to me a good workout this morning. I actually made it go down some but No, I I was not

Struck by anyone. I was struck by Well, the B was doing 10 miles per hour west eastbound

I was doing 32 miles per hour westbound the resultant It wasn't the

Babylon B. No because the B lost the the B left half of its guts on my glasses, but had enough left over to Sit on my cheek and sting while I was trying to decelerate while going downhill 32 miles per hour and wear my glasses off get them off unfortunately, the stinger stayed in until I don't know another 1015 miles when

I stopped at a restroom and there was a fellow cyclist there I said Does it look like there's still something in there and he looks and it looks like it well,

I managed to get it out then but So it was in there for quite some time and I woke up this morning and whoo.

It was really bad but a good solid workout will actually Really reduce the inflammation a lot.

So it's hard to read right now and look down at stuff, but it's hey, you know

It's part of you know, I don't blame the B He he didn't expect anybody to be coming along at that particular point in time so I've you know got no problem with with him and he was just doing what his little

B brain said to do and I was in the wrong place. So anyway, I hope that's not too much of a distraction for you because Our topic today.

We don't need any distractions as we as We discuss it once again.

We come on the air shortly after a Major explosion of Violence and death and human evil that has everyone's attention and I Part of me is screaming don't do this

It's too early it's too soon No one well almost no one will be fair to you in listening to what you're saying because obviously my

Primary concern is to once again Remind all

Christians of the biblical command that we are to have the mind of Christ That we are to think in a biblical fashion from a

Christian worldview and hence we are to Be very sensitive to how we might be influenced by Our culture and By the constant pressure that our culture is placing upon us in how we are to think about situations such as this and this situation the

Attack by a single Muslim terrorist

Against a and Interestingly enough the first reports I saw downplayed this but a well -known

Homosexual nightclub at two o 'clock in the morning on Latin night

This Situation brings together Two areas that Frequently I'm dealing with but completely separately ones over here ones over there and Very often those two do not get together

Though I have a number of times in the past considered doing a program on What Islam says concerning homosexuality because some of you will remember

That in the Debate in Durban last year

One of the the parallel texts in the Quran that I went through and demonstrated differences in How the

Quran relates the same story? Had to do with Lot and Sodom and Gomorrah and the subject of homosexuality.

I didn't expand a great deal upon that at the time

But It is Right there. It is important to recognize that that is right there and that there is a fair amount in the

Hadith and in Sharia Concerning the subject of homosexuality and the historic

Islamic position on the subject does not differ much from the Jewish and Christian perspectives

Though obviously because of the highly Political nature of Sharia and The reality that you can't separate that out from Islam There is much more in regards to law and to the execution of homosexuals in Islamic lands

Most people are well aware that Isis has Revived These laws from the past that did exist in the past in some places.

There's been disagreement, but it's always been illegal It was the the penalties have often depended upon The particular context and things like that, but it is well known that Isis Tosses people off the top of buildings when they are

Accused and then convicted of Being a sodomite or a homosexual now obviously

When you say accused and convicted Isis Legal courts could be very highly questionable along those lines, but one thing it does need to be mentioned is there is

Normally a need for witnesses and they're supposed to be anyways a legal process involved that obviously becomes rather streamlined when

Isis is involved, but point being here we have two areas of Tremendous discussion and thinking amongst

Christians and they collide in This situation one of the things we immediately see is the complete confusion the mainstream media as to what to do here

What are we supposed to do here? We You know, we we can't say anything bad about Islam and And of course

Pushing homosexuality is the whole reason we exist seems so What are we gonna do now when we have a

Muslim? Who is attacking homosexuals

In Orlando With all that said

I am once again concerned by the tone of Much of what

I am hearing in the immediate response to the subject of What happened in Orlando and the interface between Islam and and homosexuality?

Obviously there could be many people who are going to disagree with what I have to say today and That's okay.

I just want you to hear I am going to seek to be consistent

I'm going to raise a number of issues that may be uncomfortable I'm going to disagree with some well -known people

And again, my biggest fear is That what I'm seeing more and more within the believing community is an abandonment of Sophronismos disciplined thinking

Sobriety of thought The fact that we as human beings are

Made in the image of God and therefore we have the capacity as image bearers of God to control our

Emotions and to engage in rational thought based upon Principles of truth and goodness and honesty and virtue given to us by God in Creation and in his word that should always be our ultimate goal.

That should always be what we are striving for Is that we would honor

God by thinking carefully By Examining our own motivations

Examining our own hearts always looking at any situation like this as redeemed individuals debtors to grace but first and foremost

To be careful that we do not succumb to the spirit of the age and That we do not succumb to the fear of the faces of men now

You may disagree with where I come down on this that's fine. I just simply ask that you do so consistently that you have a meaningful foundation that you don't

Adopt a Platform in regards to this subject over here that now it's going to conject what you do over here

We've got to try to be consistent. None of us are ever 100 % successful at that We are all influenced by Our blind spots and by our traditions and and things like that.

I understand that I get that but it's something We should always be striving for First of all murder is evil in the sight of God What Omar Mateen did

Was evil It was premeditated those who are applauding him today

Give evidence of their own radicalization within Islam by supporting what he did you must recognize

That though the mainstream media is not going to hardly pick up I've seen a few things here and there but Already numerous

Muslim leaders groups of Muslim leaders Mosques and organizations and so on and so forth have decried the actions of Omar Mateen and unfortunately for a lot of evangelicals the idea is

Takiyah, Takiyah, they're just all lying to us They don't really

Mean it they're they're just they're just doing that to keep you know from getting a whole lot of negative public

Sentiment expressed their their way and once again We have

What got me in trouble? I don't know was it six eight months ago when Because of a similar situation

I tried to point out that we as believers do not have the right

To demand of others what we will not grant to them in return in other words I noted

Somewhere either on Facebook or Twitter last night, or maybe it was this morning. I forget where it was anyways

Some of you have already seen the video that Steven Anderson put up and Well, I'm sorry it was last night, and it was

I was talking about Westboro Baptist Church, there's not much of a difference as far as attitude is concerned um

Westboro Baptist Church comes out, and I'm not really sure why anybody considers them overly relevant anymore

Fred Phelps isn't around But they came out and Basically said well, you know

God sent the shooter, and this was all judgment upon homosexuals and upon the United States and so on and so forth and I immediately

Mentioned the fact that there were many people on in social media

Who on the one side? Were refusing to allow for the fact that there may well be

Many Muslims who do in a heartfelt and consistent fashion

Condemn what Omar Mateen did There are many people who would say I just don't believe it they're they're all bloodthirsty murderers and If they say otherwise, they're just lying because to be a

Muslim this is what it means to be a Muslim Omar Mateen is the representative of all of Islam and then with the next breath

Those same people will say But don't hold me accountable for Westboro Baptist Church.

I'm not with them The they're radicals they're nuts they're they're they're that's a cult or this morning

Stephen Anderson Puts his mug out there As he is want to do and he needed his five minutes of fame.

He he feeds off of that hatred That he produces through his own behavior

Sure sign of a cult leader and He puts his video out and How many

Christians are going at? That's not me Even Joel McDermott puts out an article. I didn't know

Joel McDermott changed his view on the Penalty issues on Old Testament law, but anyways puts out an article.

Would you zip it? Well, he's never gonna zip it He's never gonna zip it until he's zipped

In other words until somebody puts him away Which could happen? Little dry today here in Phoenix.

Did you see the prediction predictions? My son sent me a Screenshot for Chandler Chandler Arizona Sunday and Monday 120

Mine only says 119 big deal. Anyway He's not gonna zip it because he feeds off of that But the point is we want to be able to look at a

Stephen Anderson who we find absolutely reprehensible Even even you know the thing about Stephen Anderson, even when he says true things

Because he's been interviewed on local TV here once a number of times and I I watched one and what really bugged me was

Half of what he was saying was true but it was the When when you speak the truth as an individual who does not

Recognize your own need of grace it becomes

Sandpaper it just it just becomes screechy and Of course in our society today any speaking of truth is considered to be screechy

But this is screechy on steroids So point being

If I as a Christian want to be able to say don't hold me accountable to Westboro Baptist Church.

Don't hold me accountable To Stephen Anderson. Don't hold me accountable to Pope Frankie Don't hold me accountable to Joel Osteen What does that mean

I have to be willing to do I have to be willing to Hear a

Muslim who says what Omar Mateen did is disgusting in my eyes

I Repudiated it is hateful. It is wrong.

Now. Are there some more some Muslims? Who Applaud him secretly and publicly condemn him.

Of course, there might be some but I can't look into people's hearts and so There has to be a willingness on my part to recognize the differentiation here.

Not only that but you need recognize something else in classical Islamic law

What he did was wrong Why? Well as we're gonna see here in a moment, there's there is a lot in the

Quran about homosexuality. That's true but the civilization that Islam built

Was not built upon lone wolves Taking justice into their own hands and Just going out and engaging in mass murders

No, no civilization can exist when that is allowed there was a legal system

I mean the the Sharia is so huge and complex and convoluted

Because there was this legal system and because you have these legal scholars who interpret things this way and that way and all the other complexities that come along with it, but Just simply on a classical law foundation

Just simply deciding I'm the hand of Allah. I'm gonna go Take out a bunch of sinners

Um Just from a classical position Would be something that would be completely wrong just as we

Christians would look at someone who calls himself a Christian and then goes out and takes the law into his own hands as a person who is operating outside the parameters of proper biblical morals and ethics

If we want that freedom for ourselves We've got to be able to extend it to other people.

It's just absolutely necessary now There was a and I I tried to open it

It's as well as wonderful situations. Rich was mocking me in here because I was going it's gonna take you 12 minutes to update

What are you doing? He says? Oh, I only thought Windows did that. I said it's word.

It's Microsoft it's That's it's not my fault.

It's not a native Mac program by any stretch the imagination There are many statements in The Quran and the

Hadith in regards to homosexuality, I'm not going to take all the time to read through these but let me just read you

I mentioned before the Text from the

Quran In Quran 780 and again,

I Comparing these parallel accounts with one another very interesting. I think enlightening

But here is is Quran Surah 7 We also sent loot which is lot

He said to his people do you commit lewdness such as no people in creation ever committed before you?

For you practice your lusts on men in preference to women You are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds and his people gave no answer

But this they said drive them out of your city These are indeed men who want to be clean and pure but we saved him in his family except his wife she was of those who lagged behind and We rained down them a shower of brimstone then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime now what's interesting is

There are many today who try to argue that The Genesis 18 and 19 account upon which this is based is

Insufficient to really communicate to us anything in regards to homosexuality whether it's evil or not

They'll say it was just gang rape. That was evil or anything along these lines but what the

Quran represents is Is accurate to The 7th century and how people would have interpreted

Genesis at that time Even there in in Arabia a parallel in Quran 20.

Well notice in Quran 7 You practice your lusts on men in preference to women.

So there's a specific focus upon the the twisting of the sexual desire

That is brought out in surah 7 and Then in surah 26 ayah 165 of all the creatures in the world.

Will you approach males and Leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates.

So again There is a very clear Emphasis upon the twisting of the male -female relationship

In regards to homosexuality nay, you are a people transgressing all limits They said if you will desist not oh look you will surely be cast out

He said I I do detest your doings Oh my lord deliver me and my family from such things as they do

So we delivered him in his family all except an old woman who lingered behind Then afterward we destroyed the others wearing down them a shower of brimstone and evil was the shower of those who were admonished

But he did not so the point is that in all of These texts for example in surah 27 the next surah would you really approach men in your lust rather than women nay you are a people grossly ignorant

Do you do what is shameful though? You see its iniquity There can be really no question

The Quran is very very clear in Interpreting the

Genesis account as having as its primary focus the homosexual orientation and act

Surah 29 surah 29 likewise then let's look at some of the at some of the hadith By the way, you notice

Almost no one well nobody that I heard In any of the coverage that I have seen

I haven't spent a lot of time digging through it it's wall -to -wall 24 hours, but Very few people are going to give you the specific quotations in the

Quran and the hadith unfortunately I had put much this stuff together and then an individual well known to me sent out a article today

Of putting them all in in one file, which was very useful to be able to grab hold of these things, but these are

I Had wanted to do something like that bring all my notes together, and they basically did it for me

So I appreciate that saved me the time this morning in Sahih Bukhari 882 820 narrate iman

Abbas the Prophet cursed effeminate men and Those women who assume the similitude manners of men

He also said turn them out of your houses He turned out such -and -such per he turned out such -and -such person and Umar turned out such -and -such person so the

Prophet cursed effeminate men Narrated iman Abbas sahih

Bukhari 772 -774 the Prophet cursed effeminate men those who are in the similitude

Assume the manners of women and those women who assume the mares of men. He said turn them out of your houses Narrated Abdullah ibn

Abbas. This is Sunan Abu Dawud 38 4 ,448 if a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy.

He will be stoned to death Narrated by Abdullah ibn

Abbas and Abdullah ibn Abbas is one of the primary Sources of hadith narrations if you've ever read these

Don't have the Text on this one, but it looks like it's also in Sunan Abu Dawud the

Prophet peace be upon him said if you find anyone doing as lots people did kill the one who does it and the one

To whom it is done Now if you've got four or five different recitations in the

Quran concerning lot and What happened there?

Then it's pretty obvious that The narration being provided is is rather important Let me see here

Abu Dawud said from here I remember this tradition from Muammar and Musa beware

No, man should lie with another man. No woman should lie with another woman except with one's child or father

He also mentioned a third which I have forgotten You're most welcome.

Thank you, Siri I'm not you know, you know what, you know, it throws her off when you have

Arabic names. I Don't know why but but she gets confused with when you're doing

Arabic names And I'm not sure why she does that when she's on silent or she's supposed to be on silent.

Yep on silent, but Anyway You're not gonna say anything at all

What It could happen to you too you have a you have an iPhone sitting out there, don't you?

It would never happen to you. I mean all it means is you don't talk as much as I do

There is that yes Ibn Majah 3 9 1903 it was narrated from Abu Huraira that the messenger of Allah cursed women who imitate men and men who imitate women

This is a Sahih narration It was narrated by Abu Huraira from the Prophet said a Kearney Said concerning those who do the action of the people of Lot stone the upper and the lower stone them both

That's a Hassan. So it's not as strong a narration So and then this one now this one's important This is from the

Mishkat volume 1 page 765 prescribed punishments Even a boss and Abu Huraira Reported God's messengers saying a curse is he who does what lots people did in a version on the authority of Ibn Abbas It says that Ali Muhammad's cousin and son -in -law had two people burned and that Abu Bakr Muhammad's chief companion

Had a wall thrown down on them now that if you have followed much of the reports of Isis and Al -Qaeda and some of these other organizations that Other than throwing people down off of buildings the other one the other punishment.

That's very common is to knock a wall over on top of People which seems strange until you look at the sources from which they would derive these particular

These particular comments So there are numerous fatwas and And things like that this these are the sources from which

Omar Mateen undoubtedly was drawn now once again once again

We hear these things we read these things and The danger is that we're gonna go.

Well, there you go. There's that and at the same time

I Think one of the reasons that I am so sensitive this and people aren't gonna like it because I you're taking the side of the

Muslim I'm not But I am saying we have to be fair because I'm constantly having to respond to people saying well we should ban the

Bible because the Bible contains Leviticus 2013 and I specifically state

It needs to be read in its context. This is what it was saying Yes, it is an abiding moral law, but this issue of the penalties

Those penalties are given to a people who are covenanted to God for they themselves to be holy in God's sight

And So I you know we demand the ability and the right to contextualize

Not to not to argue away or to run from but to contextualize in a consistent fashion

The Texts that we ourselves consider to be the very

Word of God and I will not join with the world in condemning any religious text

Without giving the people who believe it even if I consider it to be untrue The right to a believe it and be to define it within their own context because once I do that I know this world and Its ultimate goal is to get rid of the truth the scriptures and If I've joined them in Building up a basis for doing that to somebody else

Then I have no basis upon which to try to defend myself once they start coming for me got to be consistent got to be

Consistent no matter how strong your emotions are and how strong your feelings are and all the rest that stuff you've got to be consistent now

I'm very thankful That many Muslims have already come out and have condemned this action and have

Said this is not what we believe this is not in accordance with with Islamic law.

This is not how it's supposed to be done. I haven't yet and and I haven't had got other things going on.

I've got a funeral to do tomorrow. I've got busy busy time Um Maybe there are some

Muslims Who have done some webcasts put out some videos written some articles.

I don't know Where they have said look, here's what Islam believes about homosexuality and this is why we believe it and We do believe it's sinful and And we do believe it involves a perversion of the created order that God has made and We're not gonna we're not gonna compromise on that we're not we're not gonna be embarrassed

But what the Quran says or but by what our law says But our law also says here is the process that needs to be gone through and Omar Mateen didn't do any of these things he took

What he thought was justice into his own hands and in the process

Became a mass murderer That's what I'd like to see and I I have a feeling there are probably some out there.

I just haven't seen them yet Maybe I'll see some maybe some folks will send me

You know some information I don't know But That's what would be useful one of my concerns obviously is

That Incidents like this Will be used and this is one of the quote -unquote true things that Steven Anderson said

It's just when you couch it within you know It's sort of like a

Pen can be used to write true statements But when you fill the ink reservoir with hydrochloric acid the result isn't quite the same and That's sort of what

Steven Anderson is about This kind of incident will be used to continue to promote the farce of hate crimes laws and Hate crimes laws are a farce

They they involve the the legal system in Trying to do something that it was never designed to do and can't be designed to do and that is to look into the hearts

And minds of men you make something illegal You have a penalty for it

If it's going to be binding upon the conscience of men, what is illegal needs to be? consistent and Something that is immoral

There has to be a moral foundation under all of this when you start making good things illegal then the law becomes a farce

And that's where we're getting well, that's where we've gotten we're already past it actually it's only getting worse

But he's right in that undoubtedly this will be utilized to by the homosexual movement

To even further their demands for uber rights not equal rights, but uber rights We all see the uber rights all around us

It's it. I've been saying this for decades and now you'd have to be blind Not to see the fact that they want to be treated in a special way better than anybody else not equality

No, no, no, they want to be able to demand that everyone celebrate their

Sexuality it not even gonna argue that one because it's it's too obvious for for argumentation

Um, but that's what's gonna happen It's going to be used in that way now Let me mention well

There's a couple things. I want to try to tie together here and it's sort of sort of hard to To know how to transition at this point

I do want to mention this just in passing It's somewhat of a diversion, but I don't know where else to put it

I Saw a note, I don't follow this individual on Facebook, but someone else does and they sent it to me.

I was talking with a Dear friend of mine last week About the fact that neither one of us for quite some time had heard anything about dr.

Robert Maury Dr. Maury wrote some books on Islam years ago and I have been a critic of what dr.

Maury has said about Islam and most specifically

You know, I've been critical of his moon God theory I think it's full of holes and I especially was critical of his behavior in His debates with both

Shabir Ali and Jamal Badawi His behavior was inexcusable.

There's just there's no excuse for it And I've been critical of his insistence for example on reading one particular hadith inappropriately so as to make

Just completely inappropriate comments not only about Muhammad but about Shabir Ali and you can go back and look at but the one thing that and By the way,

Maury's never responded those specific things. It's always just sort of a general scattergun response but the one thing that I Very strong in my condemnation of Bob Maury about and I did use the term stupid

Was his assertion That one of the best ways to deal with Islam is to nuke the

Kaaba Drop a nuclear weapon on the Kaaba in Mecca and the reasoning being that the fifth pillar of Islam the pillar of in regards to Well It's not well by the way just in passing we are in the month of Ramadan, which is why we're seeing some of this stuff happening

So much violence takes place during Ramadan, but the Hajj You couldn't fulfill the

Hajj with the Kaaba nuked and Somehow this supposedly would

Destroy Islam and when someone first suggested to me, I didn't know who had suggested it

I said that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life. And it is it remains this day the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life. There's just there's no question about it

The single thing that I could imagine

That would galvanize and unite the world's Muslims Who are primarily divided you got you understand?

There's there's all sorts of friction stuff even between These you know between Al Qaeda and Hamas and these group

There's even friction between them let alone the friction that exists between the Sunnis and the Shia You want to get them all together into one big really mean nasty

United Army do that Do that that'd be the one thing it would do it. Yep. Yep.

Yep. Yep. Yep. You get everybody together on that and so That was the primary thing that I focused upon was that that's just that's just absurd well, dr.

Maury wrote I Was thinking of brother James White and others who called my materials on Islam stupid

Now that the jihad attacks in New York City, Virginia, California, etc And now Florida vindicate my teachings on Islamic terrorism

Will any of these brothers be man enough or Christian enough to apologize and say brother Maury you were right? I apologize for calling you names and attacking your character and motives

Let us work together to defeat the Islamic takeover of the West but given human pride I don't expect them to apologize

It is sad when apologists surrendered to political correctness and attack those men of God who sound the trumpet of Zion to warn the church the nation

Well, dr Maury you can think that that's what you've been doing and you can think that I've said that all your materials are stupid

I didn't I have focused upon Very very specific things and very very specific behaviors as well.

And I stand behind Everything I have said without any apology because there's no need for any apology

I stand behind anyone who says nuking the Kaaba is an effective means of dealing with Islam Has no credibility whatsoever period end of discussion

It's all there is to it. If you sir will repudiate that and apologize for ever having even suggested it then we can talk

But as long as you're making statements like that What can

I say? I Have no idea what this tweet means

No one demands celebrating the Christian lifestyle ideology when they are killed by the hundreds by radical

Islamists. I Understand that doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

Sorry anyway Looked interesting, but doesn't make any sense.

All right, let's Let's get down to the the tough stuff because up till now we're talking primarily

Islam and Some things like that, but That's not where the real concern is is it the real concern is this

Muslim Murdered. Well were there non -homosexuals in the in the club?

I'm sure there were But in general this was an attack upon Homosexuals and There prior were bisexuals and transgendered folks and things like that That would identify along those lines.

I Mean 2 a .m. Orlando. There probably weren't too many other places to go and it does seem that this nightlife type thing is pretty common in Cities across the

Western world. How are we to think about this? I've heard a lot of people saying

That Well, for example, there's been a lot of quotation of Romans 12 15 and Romans 12 15 says rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep and so we are to weep with the

LGBT community At an event like this and I I hear that and If what they're saying is let's not be a bunch of Steven Andersons Because he's rejoicing at those who weep

I Get that but I don't I don't think that's really what's being said Maybe for some

That's just not what I get when I look at Romans 12 The first thought across my mind is this is this is talking about in the body of Christ You know, the very next verse is be of the same mind toward one another

Well, that's not That's not Just talking about Romans in general that's talking about believers

Certainly there's there's things here bless those who persecute you those who persecute you without not within the body of Christ I get that But this summa path a this to feel together sympathy

Whether it is rejoicing together or mourning together, it's first and foremost amongst

Christians It's it's similar to what is said in Hebrews those who are in chains consider yourself soon dead a man or bound together with them and I'm a little concerned by the sort of the

Just general broad brush well, I've expressed many times a

A sincere concern in Adopting the idea that sexual sin

Gender confusion Open rebellion against God's law is a sufficient or proper or meaningful basis for the definition of a community.

I Don't think there's a community of adulterers. I don't think there's a community of thieves I don't think it's a community of slanderers.

I don't think there's a You know, I just don't see What the advantage is or what the use is or how these?

sinful activities can provide a meaningful foundation for defining a community

I Don't get it. So When we look at what has happened, how has?

How has this self -identified community responded and how should

I as an individual Christian and then The Christian body and I speak

I realize So much in the West in Western cultures so much of what calls self

Christianity isn't I'm not talking about mainstream

Denominations, whatever that that that's such a you know, the mainline denominations means nothing. It's an irrelevant phrase

It it's never really had much meaning. It certainly doesn't have any meaning anymore Um, I'm talking about believing

Christians here serious believing Christians Oh Okay, I I do

I got a clarification on Twitter It's hard to talk and read at the same time Person I read said it means that after this horrible crime

There is a cry from the public to be more accepting regarding the LGBT lifestyle and it never works the other way around I hope made myself made myself clear.

Yeah, so in other words when you you see the murder of Christians by Isis Genocide so on so forth.

You don't see the media and the culture at large Saying well there needs to be even more acceptance of Christian values and Christian people

Yeah, most most definitely there's the the Inconsistency of the media is not something that's overly difficult to recognize

As believers as true believers in Christ, how do we respond to the death of a sinner without At the same time saying

That what we believe about sin and punishment is irrelevant that that's where the balance has to be found let's be honest ourselves if 50 people blew themselves up in a meth lab

Let's say there's some huge meth lab hidden away in a major city and Drug dealers are

Cooking away and Boom the whole place goes up, which

I've been told is actually sort of hard to keep that from not happening But the whole place goes up 50 people lose their lives

There wouldn't be anyone saying that we need to mourn with the drug dealer community.

Why not? Why not? Well because there's no movement to demand that we give uber rights to drug dealers

What they were doing was sinful and they lost their lives in the midst of that and And no one that I can even imagine would go well, we really need to You know be sympathetic

Well, how would you express your sympathy? I? Mean you express your sympathy to an individual if you had if someone had a son

That rebelled against them and became a drug dealer then yeah, you would

You would mourn the loss of the potentially good life and the accomplishments that could have been that young person's and and things like that and you could express anger toward the lifestyle that destroyed them and toward the greed and the effect of drugs and and There's all sorts of things you could do there and you would express your grief in that way

But let's face it today There still may be people who will say

Yes, homosexuality is wrong But in our society to actually function on the basis that it's a life -destroying rebellious activity not allowed to Not even in the church

Not even in the church That's not allowed to figure into your thinking

So that the result is we can't look at the Pulse nightclub and go

Well, here let's put this way ask yourself a question ask yourself this question how would the

Puritans Have responded to a similar situation and Why if it was a different response, would it be a different response than today?

How would Spurgeon have responded back then?

some Horrific loss of life and it happened a whole lot more often than it happens today.

I'm not talking about terrorism I'm talking about, you know building collapses and fires and All sorts things like that, especially in big cities.

It happened a lot. There would be a lot of death and How would they have responded?

unlike us today men up until secularism started sapping all of us of our commitment

We're quick to recognize God's wrath against sin they were They were look back look back in the history of our own nation

During a civil war lose a major battle God's punishing us Same thing in England God's punishing us

God's this is God's punishment You don't hear that today it's impossible for anyone to Even say that today and be taken seriously

Well, God God doesn't punish anybody anymore Yeah, I know Romans one says God's wrath is being revealed, but we really don't believe that.

I Mean we'll keep that over here, but not over here the result is that there can be no discussion of The fact

That if you are cut off If you die as an unrepentant sinner in rebellion against God You will face the just wrath of the thrice

Holy God and You will have no way to stand in his presence

Is that not the plain biblical teaching you will die in your sins?

Those who practice these things will not inherit the kingdom How many times this happens there isn't any question that's the message in the

New Testament but it is an offensive message to the natural man and However, we respond we cannot respond in such a way that we become silent in Not pointing out the wrath of God against sin

That's my concern that no one can say, you know

There probably wasn't any glorifying of God going on at 2 a .m. In the morning at the Pulse nightclub

There was a lot of rebellion there was a lot of sexual sin there was abuse of alcohol and drugs and and It it was a den of iniquity

That doesn't make what Omar Mateen did right He doesn't get to play

God but it doesn't change the fact that what was going on there was very very wrong and It's very very wrong every

Saturday night and every Friday night in any city anywhere We all know what happens but it's just so common that we just get used to it and It becomes so common and we get so used to it that it doesn't even any longer factor into our thinking

So judgment fell and you go.

No, no, I would refuse to say that as a judge Wait a minute. Don't you believe that God determines?

Okay, again, I'm only talking to people who take the Bible seriously Don't you believe God determines when he's gonna cut sinners off?

you know, I had this conversation over and over again with people about the subject of eternal punishment and Everybody will sort of in a knee -jerk reaction way say well, yeah, you know

God would be just to You know cut off sinners at any point in their life, you know

He can he can bring his wrath to bear upon someone at any point life But do you really believe that?

Or are you just saying that because you know, that's what you're supposed to say to sort of hold the system together But do you really believe that?

Because as I look at this situation The moral factor cannot be zeroed out

Almost everybody I hear talking about this is oh, well people were just enjoying themselves at 2 a .m.

The morning in a gay club You don't you don't think you don't think there was some sin involved there.

Maybe just like all of it But we can't we can't talk about that why not

I'm not in clubs at 2 o 'clock in the morning I mean and it's not just because I got up at 240

That morning to go for a ride either Different thing different issue I'm not

I'm not out there doing that You're self -righteous. No, I Know that that is not pleasing before God And I want to please

God so I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to engage in open unrestrained rebellion flaunting my rejection of his will in my life and when

I do that God's judgment come upon me at any point in time And if you don't believe what

I'm saying, then I don't think you believe Isaiah chapter 10 Isaiah chapter 10 remember Israel goes against God's law

Rejects God and his commandments and what's God do? He fulfills the cursings part

Deuteronomy 28 29 and he brings a Syria pagans Against Israel who trodden them down the streets thousands of people died thousands of people died now if that happened today and Jerusalem fell today

Well, what's the Assyrians get Babylon's later on but the northern cities if you if you took one of those northern cities of the

Syria took and Brought your cameras in and show the dead bodies and the burning buildings

How many Christian leaders today would have the guts? to say

There is a judgment of God. There's just God said if you do this,

I'll do this There it's happened. There's a judgment of God. How many people's we can't know.

We don't know we can't tell and yet God says not only did

I bring the king of Assyria But I'm then gonna judge the king of Assyria because he did it with a haughty attitude and a haughty spirit

Which would have interesting direct parallels here because I'm sure that Omar Mateen is right now under the judgment of God He's under the wrath of God being held under God's wrath for that final day of judgment, so This is uncomfortable for people because it really exposes

The fact that we may say we believe things But when it really comes down to factoring them in we don't really believe it

We don't really let it have the impact that's supposed to have now if you know

One of the victims families When you go to them if you have that opportunity you either have you have three choices

Here's your here's your choices you have the Um Steven Anderson Westboro Baptist Church approach

Where you don't actually go see them you stand out in front of their driveway with a sign

Rejoicing at the death their loved one. That's the Westboro Baptist Church is Steven Anderson. Then you've got the world's way

Where you ignore? The context you ignore the reality of The rebellion against God Doesn't really matter to me.

It's really no God to worry about Now, I don't know how you

Comfort other than just with a pat smile nod Because you can't have words that comfort because you don't have any eternal

Truth to share with them that will have any meaning for them one year down the road or two years down the road or five

Years down the road, so you've got your two Extremes in the middle is the person who wants

To speak as one who deserves The wrath of God as fully as anybody else but is confident

That they're not going to receive the wrath of God solely because of the grace of God in their lives

Who can come? not with a word of Consolation to Smooth over the issue and say oh well

Your loved one is in the arms of Jesus now. Well, that's what we're supposed to tell everybody

That's what we're supposed to tell everybody instead

The way that you bring comfort to that person is to speak to them as a fellow image -bearer one who bears the image of God and to seek to affirm in them the necessity and goodness of their life and their need to flee with you to Christ as the only source of mercy and forgiveness now

As long as they remain self -righteous any

Pointing away from themselves and to their need and to Christ is gonna be considered offensive But to the one in whose heart the

Holy Spirit becomes active in working and bringing enlightenment

You can become the very instrument By which that person hears the words of life

That may not be something that's even possible in the first Six months year, but it should always be the goal

But what we have to avoid Well again if we have

Christ and his gospel as our highest Priorities then what we must avoid is

Compromising either his centrality or the message of that gospel and the pressure placed upon us to compromise those two things so as to avoid the great cardinal sin of our society offense is

Great and of course when you're talking about someone in grieving they can be offended at anything

Anything It's impossible to avoid it in many situations. So it may require

Fair amount of wisdom to know even know how to how to approach such a thing But let me point something else out and I'll be closing with this.

Oh my it's already after one o 'clock Um Have I seen this response to my post

I I haven't what what post oh No, that's funny

Well, why should I be shocked? Steve Hayes Decides to take a shot at me before I actually do the program.

I Just need to check that guy off the box of why even bother

I announce That I'm gonna be doing this program and he calls that an

Obama esque response Wow Apparently White's logic faculty is on the fritz.

Hope it will be repaired soon Steve dude, I Don't know what your problem is

But may I suggest before you start writing stuff like that wait till I actually make my comments

Might be a good idea then then, you know I of course you've grossly misrepresented my comments in the past too, but at least then you can refer to something.

This is just unbelievable, sorry, but Credibility destruction right there by good old

Steve used to do a lot of good stuff now. I don't know what the problem is.

Oh Now I'm parroting the liberal establishment Amazing well, anyway, no, thank you for pointing that out to me.

It's it's pretty amazing to me That that you could actually write a response to I said before I said it

But it gives you an idea of where Steve Hayes is gone. He's Off the edge. Anyway final important thing here and I just just hope you can

Take the time to think about this. What has been the response on?

The part of And again, I hate this terminology the homosexual community

Pride marches has there been any indication whatsoever of any openness to consider that Maybe what we do is wrong.

No None, and as soon as I started seeing the responses the

We're proud we're proud we're not going to be put down dot dot dot dot dot dot

I Couldn't help. I just couldn't help but think about a

Text and it's one that has always just When I first saw it and I first realized what it meant it was an insight into the depravity of man that is

Is startling It's some Genesis chapter 19 Genesis chapter 19, you know the story

Yahweh and two angels have come and visited Abram the two angels have gone on to Sodom and Gomorrah they've

Encountered lots lot has been afraid for them and has rushed him into his home because he knows it's not safe in the city square because he knows the moral character of the city in which he lives and He has shown hospitality to them which was the greatest good of that day and Genesis 19 for says

Before they lay down the men of the city the men of Sodom surround the house both young and old all the people from every quarter and They called to lot and said to him

Where are the men who came to you tonight bring them out to us that we may have relations with them But lot went out to them at the doorway and shut the door behind them and said please my brothers do not act wickedly

Now behold, I have two daughters who have not had relations with man Please let me bring them out to you and do to them

Whatever you like only do nothing to these men and as much as they have come under the shelter of my roof But they said stand aside furthermore.

They said this one came in as an alien and already is acting like a judge Now we will treat you worse than them.

So they pressed hard against lot and came near to break the door But the men reached out their hands and brought lot into the house with them and shut the door

They struck the men who are at the doorway of the house with blindness Both small and great so that they wearied themselves trying to find the doorway now

There's so much here It it's very clear That lots use that term wickedness

They didn't like that You've you you think you you've just come amongst us and you you think you can judge us

It was this immediate rejection of the idea of any judgment don't don't judge us don't judge what we do and You picture this in your mind this large crowd

Trying to get into this house and it it didn't strike me the first number of time for years reading it and I've explained this to many people in the past.

I've just watched people's eyes. I never thought of this But you notice verse 11.

They struck the man who are at the doorway the house of blindness. What? What did that look like and what did that sound like?

Put yourself in the position of one of those men trying to get into the house There are bodies all around you.

You've all come together for the same purpose and you've come at night and so they're undoubtedly torches and You're working together as a group

Confident that your numbers will be enough to accomplish your purposes and then light squad.

You're struck blind now What's the first thing you're gonna do if all of a sudden?

The lights got you. You can't see anything. There's gonna be a moment of shock

Maybe a you know feeling your face See if something's been pulled over your face something like that and then you're going to cry out

Hey, I I can't see I I've gone blind.

I can't see help me. Here's the problem the moment you cry out

Everyone around you saying the same thing Everyone around you is crying out.

I Can't see and it Takes a few seconds, but eventually it gets through to you

We've all been struck blind We have all been struck blind the faculty of sight has been removed from all of us now

Having imagined this in your mind. What's the first thought across your mind?

You would think that the first natural thought of everyone is

You know if We've all been struck blind. We might be doing something wrong that this this could be judgment

Maybe we should stop doing what we're doing. That's not what they did.

That's not what they did. That's what amazing So that they wearied themselves trying to find the doorway

They didn't stop They didn't give up despite the

Overwhelming clarity of the evidence that they were under judgment

For what they were doing and they knew that lot was right They knew that what they were doing was wickedness

But when you are sold out to wickedness You will not stop

There's a phrase. It's a frightening phrase given over Given over it's used in Romans 1 and it's seen in Genesis 19 11

They would not stop Searching for the doorway They would not be denied despite the fact

That their eyesight had been taken away from until and unless the

Spirit of God brings conviction of sin

Takes out hearts of stone and gives hearts of flesh No matter how clear the evidence of judgment

Men will not turn if they've been given over they will not turn and What has been the response and how much of that?

How much of that has anything to do at all with the fact that there have been many Christians Who refused to even talk about judgment?

Well, there's no judgment for what you do now, of course

Most of us are sitting here going. Yeah, but I don't want to look like Steven Anderson Yep, that's the that's the quandary we face, isn't it?

That's the quandary we face is that we know we're going to be lumped in with those people even though they detest us and We have completely different understandings of where we're coming from And we recognize we're not for the grace of God there go

I And i'm just as deserving Of God's just punishment outside of Jesus Christ all that all that's true, but we know

It won't make any difference We're still going to be painted with the same brush.

That's why Our priority has to be Echoing in our ears at all time

Who? Are you most concerned about? The people who are going to attack you the people are going to malign you

Or God who knows your heart. Will you be ashamed of the gospel? Will you be ashamed?

of Jesus Christ You know a lot of people i've actually had some people suggesting.

Well, Jesus would have been hanging out with those people No, he wouldn't have Well, Jesus was with the with the wine beverages and sinners

In the day Open and public Not engaging in sin

And every single time what's he communicating to sinners? Repentance, he didn't go into gay bars the fun of hanging out in gay bars repentance

Was that word that was on his lips at all times I can guarantee you Anybody who went to that place at two o 'clock in the morning started talking about repentance

Would have been ushered out very very quickly So what was going on there was evil in this case

Evil encountered evil It was an explosion of evil on both sides

Murderous evil sexual evil There was evil everywhere And that's something that unfortunately people who live in a land under the judgment of god are going to see more

And more and more of and if we don't think through If we don't have a foundation

Upon which to examine these things we're going to Inevitably end up muting

The call The only message we've been given the only purpose for us still to be here

To be salt and light to give direction to the weary sinner

And there may be few and far between of those who actually seek directions

To where they can lay down that burden of sin We may be in a day when we have to labor for a long time to see that one convert

Doesn't matter. We're called to be faithful where we are called to be faithful where we are And if we ever let ourselves get in a position

Where we're no longer calling for repentance No longer calling for faith in christ

Because we've adopted other concerns as more important than we have become

Well as one old preacher I used to know would say that's that's the day they need to write

Ichabod the glory has departed Over the doorway of this church and close the doors.

It's good good picture Good picture So just some thoughts that I I know have been expressed by some i'm sure

It just seemed especially, you know, it's only monday weekends not you know, not a lot of coverage just Seemed like there was

Some things that weren't being said some thoughts that needed to be expressed that weren't there some things to think about You need to be convinced before god not before me um

But I think the call to putting the gospel first Pretty hard to argue against that pretty hard to argue against it

Well Were that was there something you wish to add? Oh, okay. I didn't know if the look was your

Just want to get it over with huh? Okay Could always wrap this up, please Before steve.

Hayes says something else. Uh Unbelievable. Wow It just just Don't even know what to say anyways um now since you went and opened the door

Yes, you know, I I just my first thought yesterday when I heard this on the news How will we answer this?

Because how will what how will we answer to How will we answer this? Because the world will look to us and the world will ask us and We need to show that a we live in a fallen world.

We have evil men Doing even more evil things to other evil men

And as christians we need to be able to rightly identify it for what it is without Falling all over ourselves and compromising the truth

Unless you repent you shall likewise perish and it's there's nothing easy here No, no, there is nothing easy here.

And i'm i'm concerned that especially a lot of younger folks want the easy way rather than the way that requires a fair amount of um

Contemplation shall we say anyway, um I I hadn't read this by you yet But uh

Given i'm doing a funeral tomorrow and stuff and uh Looks like about the only shot i've got for the next program is on wednesday

Uh, yes Is that all right? So we'll probably look at wednesday um for the second program of uh of the week

All of which are becoming they're not even we used to we used to shoot for like one hour or an hour and a half

This one's an hour and 23 minutes Like who cares, you know, the only reason we cared about that before was to fit them on cassette tapes or or cds and stuff like that and now you're

Yeah, pretty much pretty much so so, uh something tells me there'll be some developments between now and then uh, who knows but I was going to at least make a

Brief comment On the big trinitarian controversy that Poor little old me didn't even know what was going on, uh, but that sort of exploded last week and I downloaded just just the primary articles

Uh in scholarly journals I downloaded them And put them into a sound file.

It was over seven hours and 20 minutes Of stuff i'm gonna need to listen to those are just the primary articles um

And it it looks like it's just going to get even more interesting when you're talking about wayne grudem

Taking on carl truman and stuff like that Uh This is going to get people's attention

No two ways about it And I I just will say this I just want to say this since I raised it raised the issue um as one

Who has expressed concern? More than a decade ago

About Attempting to transfer paradigmatically

One's understanding of the relationship between the persons into human society especially as it impacts the translation of harpagmas in philippians 2

And i've expressed my concerns about that I am one that is concerned about the assertion

Of an eternal submission of the son to the father I am concerned

That this Could possibly lead someone to a

Ontological subordinationism at the same time Those who are pushing that agenda deny any ontological subordinationism in their their position but You're already going.

Oh great. This sounds like a complicated situation it is But I will say this primarily on the part of the people that I would naturally have more of a

Leaning toward As an apologist as one who's constantly defending the deity of christ who's things like that um there's been a lot of really intemperate language

That has been used and someone says oh, mr. Pott kettle on line one um

I can speak very strongly But Generally that's somewhere down the road where there's been some give and take and positions have hardened and and We're now making sort of final statements that this is what this means

This is sort of in the initial phase And and basically if you're saying the other side is presenting an unknown god

Uh, you're not leaving much room for any discussion here and The you're you're basically making sure the temperature of the conversation has remained extremely high all the way through And that may not be the best way to handle this

May not be the best way that ends up just creating divisions and lines and you just lob

Rhetorical bombs at each other and nothing ever gets accomplished What I hope happens here, maybe Eternal optimist.

Well, i'm not really an optimist as much as I used to be but um, you know when I think back and and look at all the good that came out of chosen but free and the potter's freedom entire churches

Founded out of the clarification That came from that Hey um

If more and more people are caused to really dig into an understanding of What we believe about the trinity and why we believe these things and to ponder these truths

It could be a good thing I mean I've tried everybody knows i've tried to get people to really think about the doctrine the trinity the centrality of that to the christian experience and christian life and all that kind of stuff, uh but Maybe if they see a controversy between people that they know and respect and think a lot of Maybe that's what they need to actually dig into it and do the work

I don't know Either that or it could just be a real massive food fight I don't know.

I hope not but I suppose it's a possibility. Uh you know, so uh

But we'll get to it. Like I said seven and a half hours just the primary documents And I download a bunch of stuff that's more recent this sort of gets into what's going on right now, so A lot of material to uh to cover that's not necessarily it wasn't necessarily a part of my plans to begin with So now we made it

A jumbo edition by adding that in so thanks for listening to dividing line. We'll see on wednesday.