Durbin & White vs Mormon on Predestination

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To discuss though, okay there's a bigger umbrella issue here. The umbrella issue here is

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I believe that the God of the Bible and the God of the Book of Mormon are the same God. You believe

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I'm following a different God, a false God, false Christ. But here's the issue, and I don't mean to derail too much, but don't you believe in predestination and things like murder and the

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Holocaust are predestined to happen because you're a Calvinist? Don't you believe that God predestined the Holocaust to happen? There is absolutely positively nothing in this universe that is purposeless.

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God predestined the Holocaust to happen? So if... Is everything... Is God glorified by everything? That's another question

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I have to ask. You let him answer. See, here's the problem. You didn't listen to what I said. I did. Okay, then what did

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I say? You said nothing in this universe is purposeless, and so you're probably gonna say if the Holocaust happened, if it didn't happen because God predestined it, it happened purposelessly, which is even worse.

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Really? It's worse? Well that's what you would say if it happens purposelessly. So you think it's better that God wound this universe up, didn't see that coming, and went, oh man, there's nothing

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I can do about it. Well, he gives us free agency. Ah, I think God is the one with the free agency.

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Well, I think we have the right... I think people can choose, but don't you believe... Jesus taught us that otherwise. Do you believe that God predestined the sex trafficking that happens in Houston, where I'm from?

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Again, there is nothing... Yes or no? Yes, yes, yes. So here's what I want to give to your audience.

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Everything that happens in eternity is a part of God's sovereign decree, which is what, A, makes it purposeful,

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B, makes the redemption that Jesus Christ accomplishes upon the cross so specific, perfect, and glorifying to God.

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But do you really believe that though? Because let's say a little Hindu girl is kidnapped and she is sold into... You can go for all...

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Let me... I will continue. A little Hindu girl is taken and she is sold into trafficking. You believe that happened,

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God predestined her to be trafficked and murdered, and then you also believe... You also believe she's going to hell after.

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So God predestined her to be tortured and killed and go to hell. He decided all that before. Let me jump in here. That's a major issue

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I see. Let me jump in here real fast. Well, I have one more point I'd like to make. That's a major issue because you're saying, I believe in a God. You believe in a

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God that predestined and wanted and was glorified by the Holocaust happening, and is glorified and wanted sex trafficking to happen, and slavery to happen.

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If you want to go on the same God thing, I don't believe in a God that predestined the

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Holocaust to happen. You're right. I believe in a true God. Do you believe in a God who predestined the cross? Yes or no? Yes or no? Answer me. I do believe that God planned for the crucifixion to happen.

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I do not believe he planned or wanted for the Holocaust to happen. That's the difference between you and I. Was there ever anyone more innocent than Jesus Christ?

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Well, of course not. Okay, so God predestined the horrific crucifixion and murder of the most innocent man who ever existed, which means that's significantly greater than any example you've given me, because every person you just mentioned was a sinner rightly under the wrath of God.

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You recognize that Acts chapter 4. Whoa! The Holocaust was the wrath of God? Every person who dies in this world is under the wrath of God.

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Good. I'm happy for that clarification. All right. That's what I said. So you accept that the most innocent person in the world was predestined to die upon a gory cross.

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Or ordained. And that's what Acts chapter 4 says, but then you struggle that there is a purpose to everything else that someday we will find out.

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I understand you do not have a God. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, not purpose. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying you believe that everything glorifies

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God. You believe that God predestines everything to happen. That everything will glorify

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God in the working out of the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. There's a difference.

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No, there is a difference. Here's the issue though. Believing that the Holocaust happened not because of man's free agency and the wickedness, but because God predestined it to happen.

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That's a, if you ask me, I don't like to get into the semantics. You just demonstrated you have no idea what we believe. Well, I would like to,

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I don't want to get into the semantics. I don't want to get into the semantics. Well, I think it is of different God, different God, but I do,

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I would say it's fair to say that I don't think it can necessarily be declared the exact same God. If you believe that God predestined and, and, and made so little girls and boys are sex trafficked and murdered and left into holes.

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God does not do that. He doesn't do it. He doesn't do it. And they're not of God. They're not of God. They're not of God.

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If you ask me. Then your God made that happen and just didn't have a purpose and wasn't smart enough to make things work out. No, mankind made that happen.

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No, here's the issue. Hold on. Now my turn to step in. My turn. All right. So here's what you're, here's what you're neglecting to notice is that not only are you promoting a

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God that is not the God of the scriptures, the God who says he declares the end from the beginning and from ancient times, things which have not been done saying my purpose will be established and I will accomplish all my good pleasure.

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Our God is in the heavens. He does whatever he pleases, whatever the Lord pleases.

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He does in heaven, in on earth, in the seas and in all the deeps. That's not the God of Mormonism.

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It absolutely is. If I could finish, you just said that it wasn't because you said that your God was impotent and had nothing to do with the

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Holocaust. Um, he, the only thing God had to do with the Holocaust was rescue the people who were doing good in it.

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My God declared the end from the beginning and even the midst of a rebellious, hostile, evil, wicked world of people who are at war with their creator.

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He still was able to sovereignly wield his purposes and control in a fallen world. The Holocaust did not surprise my

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God. My God was in charge of the Holocaust. Your God wanted the Holocaust to happen. Oh, my God was absolutely, my

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God was absolutely determined to glorify himself through everything that happens in this world. Watch.

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Through either his grace or his justice, God will be glorified. Did God want the Holocaust to happen?

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Yes or no? If he did not, it is a purposeless evil. I'm answering you. I want your audience to see this.

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This is not, this is not a good thing. Quakoo, I'm answering you and you're not, you're not listening. I am listening.

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Quakoo, here's the problem I'm having with you and I mean this with respect to you. Oftentimes things are said to you and before the words leave my mouth, you've already responded before actually hearing what

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I have to say. Well, to be fair, that's what all three of us are doing. Let me just say to you again. No, that's not true. Let me just, let me just, I'm trying to respond to each and every point you make.

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So what I said to you was that if God didn't determine that, then it's something that was purposeless evil.

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In your scheme, what happened in the Holocaust was outside of the control of God and it was purposeless evil.

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Evil men thwarted your God. In the Bible, in the Bible, God declares the end from the beginning and he accomplishes his will and purpose in heaven and on earth and no human being, no matter how mighty and strong from a human perspective can thwart my

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God. I would love to respond to that and I want, I hope you're, if your audience is still listening because oh boy, we've gone for a while.

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Well, you brought up predestination. I did bring up predestination and the issue is, it's not that my God was the true

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God. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of the Book of Mormon and the Projection of Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price.

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It's not that Heavenly Father was surprised by it. Heavenly Father gives us agency to decide what we do because that's an entire part of the eternal process and growing and if we're going to be alive forever, we're going to have to learn choice.

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The issue is God, if he were to just interject and control all of our agency, our existence means nothing.

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We're just puppets. And so I want people to remember that God gives us agency.

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The Nazis, the people who lit people on fire, the Calvinist Puritans who burned people at the stake, slave owners, sex traffickers.

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How about mountain metals massacre? Oh, I love to talk about it. God does not determine those things.

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God does not want those things to happen. That's mankind. God did not want the Holocaust to happen. God did not want colonialism or slavery to happen.

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And I want everyone watching to know that you have a Father in Heaven who loves you. Kwaku, stop. I want everyone to know that God is the

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God of goodness and will always be on your side as long as you trust and choose his side. Listen to me. I need you to hear me very seriously now.

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You're invited on this show to have a dialogue. The one thing you will not be allowed to do on a Christian show is proselytize for the

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Mormon church. So I'll tell you, you can defend your position and we can debate, but you will not be allowed to proselytize on Apologia Radio.

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So that's just a warning. So you can defend your position. You can argue your position, but you cannot proselytize on this show.

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Well, haven't I been doing that the whole time? No, you've been having an engaging conversation with two

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Christians. We've been going back and forth, but you will not be allowed to proselytize on this show. In the same way,

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I would not be able to proselytize for the Triune God of Scripture on your show. Oh, well, we would let you.

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Fantastic. Have me over in Salt Lake. I'd be happy to do it. Dr. White, did you have something you wanted to say?

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God does not predestine the Holocaust to happen. God loves us. So let me just point a couple things out, and we'll end the show with this.

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You demonstrated, and I hope you spend time working on this area, you demonstrated in how you illustrated these things that you don't in fact understand the

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Reformed position that you're so strongly arguing against. So I just want to encourage you to spend more time on this subject in terms of understanding what we actually believe.

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Absolutely. I do not have a firm, I do not have a complete grasp. You don't have an accurate grasp. I think

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I have spent many, many, many more hours studying Mormonism and reading the original sources than you have.

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You don't know that. You don't even know me, Dr. White. You met me today. What's my birthday? Then you have, in regards to Christianity.

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Again, you just, look, I think that we've made a lot of assumptions today. I just want to, we can end this on a good note.

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Wait a minute. Are you claiming to have done more study of historical Christian theology than I have of Mormonism?

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I don't know your life or anything you've done. I want to know some of what you've done. I don't know your life. I'm not going to make any claims about you as a person.

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Are you what you like? I don't want to attack any of your beings or your personalities. I think the point he was making there, and I think the problem is you're being so defensive, even on minimal points we're trying to make here, that it really, it's not necessary to be defensive over it.

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He was just responding in terms of my saying to you that you need to spend more time understanding this because the way that you illustrated.

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I will read all of these. I'm so glad you will. I mean that seriously. But the way you illustrated what Reformed people believe about the will of man and choice and everything else demonstrates that you don't.

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I don't think I. You haven't spent the time. Kwaku, I can tell you with all that's in me, you don't, and you're reflecting it completely inaccurately.

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Reformed folks, I would say the Apostle Paul, Jesus, and Peter, and all the Reformers did not believe, do not believe that man is a robot, that he's not making choices that are willing choices that he wants to make, that God is controlling people in terms of making them do things they didn't want to do.

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We believe what the Bible teaches about the will of man, where the Bible teaches whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.

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But God does predestine that sin to happen. Hold on. Yeah, well, I believe absolutely God's in control of all things.

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I mean. So the Bible teaches about the will of man, whoever commits sin is a slave to sin, that we are dead in our sins and trespasses by nature, children of wrath, that we are hostile sinners, rebels, helpless, wicked.

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I'm quoting scripture now before God. That's our condition. So you describe mankind in terms of, you talk about a free will, but the

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Bible. Agency, yes. But the Bible talks about the will of man in terms of it's enslaved to sin, it's dead.

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We are alienated from God, hostile towards God. That's how the Bible describes our will.

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So all of humanity, those who were involved in the Holocaust, those who were involved in colonialism and everything else that you described, those were hostile rebel sinners against a holy

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God. And they were making choices freely. They wanted to do it. Yeah.

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And when God allows. God actually restrained them. That's right. God removes his restraining hand sometimes from the wicked hearts of men.

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Sometimes you get the Holocaust. Sometimes you get Georgia early on in America.

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Sometimes you get all of these wicked moments where God removes the restraining hand and you see the evil that is really in men's hearts.

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However, he removed his restraining hand, but he put it forth already. He wanted it to happen. He predestined it to happen. And you believe.

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Oh, I don't. I absolutely. That's the difference. I do. And here's, here's the problem. Until your heart is changed and your eyes are open, you will never, ever want to worship a

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God who is actually sovereign, who is actually not like you. Well. Who is actually not in the created order like yourself.

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All I can say to that. All I can say to that is that I worship and follow the true

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God of the Holy Bible and the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants for the great price. That's what

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I believe. We will disagree. Yeah. I don't believe that, that God predestines wickedness and evilness to happen.

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Evilness. Gosh. I don't believe he predestined those things. I think that is horrid. I think that's an evil doctrine.

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And it no way shows that God is loving because it's not accurate. I think that. And also, just to be clear, the reformed position.

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Well, let's test me right now. Let's see if I got this right. Okay. Hold on. I just want you to know, if you're going to continue this on, this is going to extend.

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Oh, how much time do we have? We're already about two and a half hours in. Maybe more. So if you want to continue. Maybe we should. We can continue the conversation later.

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And I'd be happy to do it. But I just want you to know, if you open the can of worms. We're going to go for like an hour. I'll go for it. How about this? It might be more reasonable that we close it out then.

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Yeah. Let's close it out. And I'd be happy to have you on again. Or we could even do it by radio conversation. Have me on the three

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Mormons and allow me to proselytize like you just said I could. Well, how about this?

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I will fight for you to be able to come on. To come and preach the biblical gospel and the biblical Jesus. Preach the reformed gospel.

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But it's only 13 minutes long. Yeah. That's right. The Jesus. Yeah. We do a short show. The Jesus who is actually the creator of Satan and not his brother.

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Well. You'll let me preach that for Colossians. Jesus is the brother of Lucifer, not Satan. Well, you get the point. We're talking about Lucifer.

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We're brothers. So they're brothers. Right. But the Jesus who created Lucifer. You'll let me promote that and teach that on your show.

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Did the father or the son create Lucifer? If you understood the doctrine of the Trinity, you wouldn't be asking that question.

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Well, I don't think people can understand the doctrine of the Trinity because it's a mystery. My kids can. If you read John chapter 1 verses 1 through 3 and Colossians chapter 1 verses 16 and on, you'll see that it says that Jesus Christ created

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Satan and everything in existence and nothing has come into being except through him. That's a different Christ.

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So not the father. The father didn't. Father, son, and spirit work together in perfect harmony in the creation of all things.

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So it's not just Jesus. Then it's all three that created. It's one God. It's one

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God. It isn't. It's one God. The Trinitarian look at that verse doesn't make sense. But what we're not escaping from is my point was you said you'd allow me on the show or try to fight for me on the show to preach that Jesus.

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And I hope that you follow through with that because I would love to do it. I can only propose.

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It's a group of people. That's fine. I understand. But please fight for it. I'll even pay my own way.

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But John chapter 1 verses 1 through 3 and Colossians 1 verse 16 and on is what I point you to in terms of who the real