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Welcome to the Conversations That Matter podcast. My name is John Harris, and we do have an interview today with a special guest, Chris, and by the way, I should have asked this beforehand. Your last name, I don't want to botch it, but it's K-Dub, is that your hip-hop name or is that your actual last name?
Just social, but last name is Williams. That's different than K-Dub.
Your hip-hop name is Chris K-Dub. Right, right. All right, so we're going to explore that because you've gone from Christian hip-hop to Calvinism and apologetics, really, to now most of your content is on social justice and how it's being pushed in the church.
There's a few of us that are talking about this, but we all have different ways of approaching it. One of the things that I really appreciated about your content is how you mix your hip-hop and your artist side with what's going on in the church, apologetics, and the social justice movement.
I think the first one I saw was your Wakanda video a few years, maybe a year ago or so. Now you've put out a few. The last one I saw was, I don't know if it's called I'm Black, but yeah, you talk about how you're black, but you're wearing a MAGA hat and stuff, so I'm trying to confuse people there.
I want to just get your story a little bit, kind of like how did you arrive at where you're at today, and then we'll talk about how people can find you and what you're trying to accomplish and stuff. Walk me through the progression here.
Did you get saved as an adult? Were you raised in the church? I was raised by a single mother, and she was very adamant about having us in church. I hated church growing up, though. I grew up in a very Pentecostal, Word of Faith kind of environment, and I became a Christian at the age of 19, so about 12 years ago, and that was the first church I went to, the Word of Faith kind of church.
I mean, that's just kind of what I knew. I believe I was a genuine believer, but that's just the comfortability I had with church, and so I went there, and the Lord kind of exposed my eyes to the Word of Faith kind of being a heretical movement.
That kind of it is, a heretical movement, and man, just the journey kind of right into Reformed theology. Man, it was everything I needed.
Just the thought of it. How did that happen? How did you make that transition?
Funny enough, I mean, talk about me just doing music. I was doing music, performing a lot, doing just music, and I was heavily influenced by Shyland, if you know of Shyland. Shyland is Reformed. I was Timothy Brindle.
I remember just listening to a song of his where he was talking about limited atonement, and it finally clicked for me. He was saying Jesus did not die for everybody, and to me, that was like, I never heard anybody say that.
And so it kind of led me into a journey of reading a lot of books. I read A .W. Pink's The Sovereignty of God immediately, and I was the only one I knew who believed. I was agreeing with everything he was saying, and I was like, I'm the only one that believes this.
Me and Pink over here. And so it just led to a whole other world of people that I met and was like, yo, this is historic. You know what I mean? And so that's kind of my journey into Calvinism. Funny enough, it was just Christian, doing what I love, music, Christian hip hop.
So yeah.
Gotcha. Well, so one of the things, it's interesting you mentioned that, is I was never huge into the hip hop scene in Christianity, but I was aware of it somewhat. I had some friends who were really into it.
I remember once I was working with a friend of mine, and he goes, hey, would you mind if I put on a Shyland album? I'm like, sure. And in this album, Paul Washer featured, and I think Shyland does this quite a bit, and a lot of hip hop artists do, they'll infuse like a pastor preaching with their music.
But I thought, wow, that's pretty, it impressed me a little bit because I was like, this is kind of deep, some of this stuff. This isn't, it's so different than what you would get when you turn on Christian radio and Christian contemporary kind of shallow, heavenly latte stuff.
But the thing that has surprised me a little bit, and maybe it shouldn't, maybe if I was more into it and I knew more about it, it wouldn't surprise me. But it did, just because I was watching from a distance, is that some of these guys who seemed like they were pretty solid, at least for the most part theologically, in the hip hop world, Christian hip hop, went so hard social justice.
And Shyland's kind of like one of those people that I thought like, okay, this guy seems from what I heard that he's at least got his foot in the right doctrine. But then all of a sudden, I think it was the Gospel Coalition, he had written the George Floyd and Me article, and I was like, what in the world is going on with this guy?
And so maybe, a lot of people have this question. And since you were kind of in that scene, I know you had a, it looks like two albums at least before you even started talking about apologetics and that stuff on your YouTube channel.
Like, well, how do you make sense of that? Like, what happened?
Or did something happen? Um, man, that's a great question. And I've thought about it, and I'm not really sure there's a something that we can really point to because, you know, I mean, maybe it was all the I think the Trayvon Martin situation really kind of highlighted some things that may have been there all the time, but it just never got broadened up, you know, because I can remember everybody being on board and, you know, loving the Doctrines of Grace, loving presuppositional apologetics, loving, loving a lot of these doctrines.
And then next thing you know, you turn around and some of these doctrines being called whiteness and like, where did you know, so I don't know if there's a specific event, it seems more so an evolution of stuff rather than one thing.
If I can, if I can speak, you know, in on the situation, I don't know if it was one event, but rather, maybe the Trayvon Martin situation was an evolution at the start of the evolution for many people.
Because yeah, that's when I just started noticing it and started having, you know, like, like many of us, like, man, what, what is this, you know, like, we were on the page just a second ago, you know,.
There was a lot of excitement, I remember around it wasn't just it was bigger than just reformed hip hop, if you want to call it that it was like this whole neo Calvinist and young reform scene 10 years ago, it was, there was this thought that, you know, this was the next kind of big thing, like almost like a revival was starting kind of, I mean, some people talked about it that way.
And then to see so many of these people that were supposed to lead that revival, being sucked in, I think of even in the Christian hip hop world, like with Cray, and Andy, I think it's many, if I'm pronouncing right, like, these guys are embracing on some level homosexuality and normalization of it.
Yeah. And these were guys just like, what, like, six years, seven years ago that, you know, they were being even positively talked about by, by reform pastors and stuff. So it's for a lot of people who are looking at this, the wind was kind of taken out of their sails.
And they're what the question they have is like, how could someone who seems so theologically on point, who understood so much, and maybe not everything, but they understood some basic things that a lot of people get wrong, right, they just be sucked into this social justice movement.
And and since you, you were someone I know you didn't have the platform they did, but you were kind of in that scene, recording your own hip hop and stuff. I thought maybe you'd have some insight on that because you didn't switch.
You didn't go over to that side. You kept you kept doing what what you always been doing. It seems like at least right.
It was something I was wrestling with more so behind closed doors many years ago, because, you know, there was, you know, you're talking about kind of this resurgence of two two worlds, right, like Calvinism and hip hop kind of.
You know, hip hop kind of introducing a lot of young people, young black people into Calvinism and reformed theology as a whole and other theological concepts to where, man, it was an amazing, refreshing time, just kind of, you know, reflecting on a lot of that.
I know for me, I mean, that that's how I became reformed. So for me, it's a very like it's very close to me because it's how I how I came to grow in my faith and how I met and heard of so many theologically sound pastors.
And and and now to hear so many people kind of I mean, if when you hear Lecrae talks about it, he kind of like regrets a lot of that. And so to me, it's like, how could you regret such a sweet time of, you know, learning in depth truths and people you met and pastors?
It's a more and to now you're kind of going into theological liberalism, you know, but you're you don't regret that. You're kind of embracing that, you know.
Well, it reminds me a little I saw this interview. You probably saw Bill Roden, sportscaster, ESPN or sports writer, and he's being interviewed on CBS. I think it was yesterday or two days ago. And they're asking him about the Olympics and he's like, you know, it shouldn't be about winning.
We should just it should be about self-reflection and we should not expect the American basketball team to win. And, you know, the flag is very offensive and nationalism is terrible. And basically, like everything the Olympics is about, he's like, I can't enjoy it anymore.
It's bad. It's wrong. It should just be about activism and self-reflection. And this is a guy who covered like five, I think he said five Olympics and he enjoyed he said he enjoyed the opening ceremony, but he doesn't anymore.
And it's the same thing like with Lecrae and some of these guys who get into social justice. It just ruins everything. It's just like all those good times they had, all the things they enjoyed, all the, you know, the solid even theology in this in their cases that they partook in.
It's like they can look back at all of those things that they enjoyed at the time and thought were so good and then just trash them. And and that's it's such a remarkable thing. It grieves my heart to see people do this.
But but yet it's happening. And so, well, you didn't go down that path, though, and you've you've actually taken it upon yourself to argue against that, both in your hip hop videos, social justice, that is, and and just some of the commentary you provide on YouTube.
Tell me a little bit about that and what made you decide to do that, because that's not exactly an arena most people today want to step into and how charged it is.
Yeah, I was very quiet for a while, I would say for a long time, having a lot of conversation behind closed doors. And, man, I just felt the need to because, one, I didn't see a lot of people doing it.
I didn't see a lot of black people doing it. And so for me, it was just providing, you know, a hopefully a helpful voice. And on some of these things that maybe people haven't thought through. And man, just just kind of here, I know, you know, you had him on your show recently, your podcast, but Bodhi Baca, man, he was very helpful to kind of step out there and to, man, just to be just to be bold with the truth.
Hey, you know, I know he says a lot like, hey, I'm not really concerned about being liked, but, you know, we have to just spread the truth. And so for me, it was, you know, if I care for people, if I don't want them going through falsehood, I saw how dangerous a lot of the social justice claims are and is.
Man, I just felt like I had to speak out. I lost a lot of friends, lost a lot of people that were like, you know, rock with me, support me, you know, do all those things. But, you know, at some point I was just like, hey, to me, it was like I'd be a bit of a hypocrite because, you know, I kind of have the same experience with Calvinism.
When I became reformed, I lost a lot of friends. And but I spoke up unashamed because I saw it in the Bible. And so I would be somewhat of a hypocrite to not have the same kind of thought with the social justice stuff if I thought it was falsehood and just to be quiet about it, you know.
And so to me, that's kind of been the mantra of it seems to be the what the Lord has constantly been doing, me speaking out on unpopular issues. You know, when when I became when I was in Word of Faith and and I came out, I spoke out against that when I, you know, when I was a synergistic, you know, became reformed, I spoke out against that.
And it's like, here's another thing in my face is like, am I going to be quiet about or am I speak out against, you know?
Well, I hope you don't have to make one of these transitions again, because I know it sounds like it's quite difficult. And I understand to some extent I've had that myself. With people that I thought, well, you don't believe this stuff.
And then I find out they do or they were emotionally kind of suckered into it. I want to ask you about, you know, you have videos going back a few years, you even have one of like Eric Mason. I don't know if you took that or someone else did.
Did you take that one? No, I didn't take those. Talking to some black Hebrew Israelites and making some good points, actually. Right. There was this sort of this time when you could at least it seemed like you could have fellowship with some of these guys.
But now there's there's huge divisions or to take the title of Vodi's book, Fault Lines that have formed. What in your mind is the issue with social justice? Can you articulate maybe like what have you seen with friends who have gone down this path?
What theologically, what's the concern that you have that has inspired you to speak out against it publicly?
Man, that's that's a good question, because I think there's many and if I was to reflect more, I would probably be able to come up with more issues. But a lot of a lot of what I've seen is it attacks the peace of the church to where I mean, we've already mentioned a few times where just a few years ago we were at peace, you know, black and white.
It didn't really matter, you know, the ethnicity. But then this kind of new ideology comes up and, you know, you hear things of whiteness and things like that and, you know, you know, reparations. And, you know, so to me, it really attacks the peace of the church.
I think more dangerous forms of it attacks a good view of the doctrine of justification because there's almost this work there is this work you have to do in order to have kind of peace with God and your man, fellow man.
And so it really attacks some some key doctrines, I believe, when you really get into it of, like I said, justification, the peace of the church, you know, some forms of social justice kind of is soft on homosexuality.
They're soft on, you know, women pastors. And so just just, you know, to see some men, I mean, we talked about it go from reform solid in their faith to I mean, I think about I learned the doctrine of church membership from Kibiti.
And when I first became reformed and I had never heard of joining of the body like that. And as a matter of fact, I wrote a song about it because I was so influenced by it, you know, called The Church.
And he was very helpful in that, you know, when I was first becoming reformed. And then just to see kind of his views now, like, man, it was very it's very for me, a lot of it's very sad because I learned from guys like Chandler to BD Mason, you know, Piper, to some extent, a lot of these men to where I respect it theologically and to see them kind of cave in on many doctrines for me, it's like, oh, man, like what happened to you?
You know, you were I felt like, Paul, you were running well, you know?
Yeah, well, I mean, like you referenced, Paul, the New Testament is filled with stories like this. So I always think like, OK, maybe I shouldn't be that surprised. Like this happens. You were told that people would also false teachers would come in.
And, you know, and even with the twelve apostles, there was a Judas. So it's not like this isn't out of the ordinary, but it still feels like it takes you like a deer in the headlights a little when it happens.
I wanted to ask you on a positive note, if you've seen fruit from what you've been doing as far as people listening and understanding. Wait, hold on. I was going down the social justice road. Now I'm realizing, OK, maybe this isn't the best road.
I know that we're going to reach sometimes our audiences will overlap. But each of us who do this, like 80 Robles and Edwin Ramirez and whoever else is doing this, we're all going to reach different audiences for whatever reason.
And that's and that's just how how it works. There's nothing wrong with that. I would assume, though, for you, you're probably reaching to some extent an audience that I'm not going to reach here. You're probably reaching some people who are maybe part of that hip hop scene or just black people in general who when they're not going to listen to to or at least they're not going to start by listening to someone like myself talk about this.
But they will turn on you for a few minutes. Have you seen any fruit from from that at all?
Oh, man, there's countless stories, man. Matter of fact, I just heard a brother called me in yesterday and just told me how influential that I was because he was saying he was more pragmatic when it came to this stuff.
He was just kind of going with the flow because he just hoped it would work, you know, and hope they would bring about some positive change in the church. And, you know, he was just telling me how I was very instrumental with just not being a pragmatist, but just just doing what the Bible would say.
I get constant messages just from people, even even trying to take the time, like just messaging me just like, hey, like I'm confused, like help me out, give me some sources. Like, can can you help me?
You know, I get plenty of messages like that. And so so for me, man, there's been much fruit that the Lord has brought out just from speaking out to where I would never expect, you know, to kind of run into some of the lanes I have ran into and speak with some of the people I have spoken to recently.
I just I did a video about Lecrae and his kind of capitulation. And funny enough, he actually responded on YouTube and I would have never thought I would have had a chance for one of my videos to reach his ears, you know.
And so even though, you know, I'm sure he disagrees. I thought that was pretty, pretty cool that, you know, he had one of my videos got the opportunity to hit his ears, you know. Oh, that's really awesome.
That is truly is. Where do you want to take this? Do you want to keep keep just doing this as kind of a side thing or what are you thinking?
Wherever, wherever the Lord, you know, kind of opens up the doors, I'm willing to go and willing to speak out on. Yeah, I just want to be kind of free to do it wherever he wants. I don't really have any any plans like I need to do this with, you know, the speaking or just whatever doors he's open up, I'm willing to go.
Well, you still do the hip hop thing every now and then. Right. So in the videos are getting higher quality, I've noticed. So are you thinking about another album or anything like that?
I will. Yeah, I would love to do some other stuff. But, you know, right now it's a busy season. And so I definitely would love to get back to releasing some more music. I do have some stuff on the on the on the agenda to release, though.
Yeah. Well, good. What's the your favorite? Like if someone who doesn't listen to hip hop regularly, OK, who's like me, which one would you say? Hey, go listen to this one. This is the one that I think you should start with.
Oh, man. Like like song wise.
Yeah. Like a song. Oh, man.
I think a lot of people would like the. The church, the song, the church up that that's kind of like I think that was the first song I made after becoming reformed and. Yeah, just the doctrine of the church, I really care about that doctrine, you know, I'm for the church and to see when when men or women, you know, talk bad about God's bride, you know, I get a little upset.
So that song right there is close to me, you know? Yeah. Amen.
Amen. No, I'm the same way. That's part of that's really why we're doing this. I think everyone who I mentioned before, who's trying to say, hey, wait, hold on. Stop. The social justice stuff isn't good.
That's probably the main driving force. And I know we love the United States. We love our homes. We don't want, you know, those things being disrupted in the sense that, you know, hierarchies are turned on their head and there's, you know, burning down cities and looting.
We don't like any of the stuff that's come about. But ultimately, I think it is this theological thing. It is. Hold on. My brothers and sisters in Christ are being affected by this is happening within the four walls of my church.
And that's more disturbing than and even in our country. Absolutely. So. So, yeah, it's good to know that that's kind of your motive. I know that's mine. And what else? Tell me about where people can find you.
If there's any closing thoughts or a message you'd have for people, what would it be?
Yeah, they can find me on Twitter and YouTube at underscore KDUVTRU, K-D-U-V-T-R-U. KDUVTRU. Man, I would just tell people, man, just stick close to the Bible. You know, believe in the Bible in times and days like this is always difficult because, you know, like I said, you could, you know, believe in the Bible.
You can always you can always tell people who love God's word, man, just how either passionate about something or when people start shifting their views, like will people start shifting in those times?
And so my mantra has been stay close to the Bible, know God's word, stick around people that love God's word as well, you know, because no one's invincible to falling away or, you know, falling into a possess the or falling into some heretical views.
Like, I mean, that's I think that's just an overreliance on self, if you think that. So sticking around other godly men and women who also love God's word, I think is important, which, you know, should be happening in your local church.
And so, yeah, man, just loving God's word, man. Keep loving God's word. That's that's what I would encourage anybody to do. Stay in God's word. Listen to things that will challenge you, you know, to grow.
Don't do not just stay stagnant, you know. And so that's that's that's kind of been something I've always trying to implement in my life. So I would encourage others to do as well.
And then you got a favorite preacher or anything like that you'd want people listen to.
Or. Man, I I had some sweet times earlier in my reformed life listening to John MacArthur and Steve Lawson. And so I tell people, you know, I'm not a I'm not a dispensationalist, but John MacArthur is my favorite Bible teacher.
I mean, he's he's he's my favorite personally. And so, you know, I've been I've listened to hundreds of John MacArthur sermons. And so my former pastor, Emilio Ramos.
Oh, really? I didn't even know that there was that connection. OK. Yeah. Yeah.
I you know, I recently just moved to South Texas. And so but he was my pastor for seven years. And so I learned a lot from him just apologetically, you know, and. And so, man, yeah, he was just a good brother to me.
It's funny enough. So you mentioned his name. I don't know if he watches this. I don't hope he's not offended. I've actually I don't think I've ever listened to a sermon by him. I don't really know who he is, except for the fact that his wife.
Yeah. Trish, right. Yes. We used to be on a wretched radio. Still is. And I would listen to wretched all the time. And the fish with Trish section where they would, you know, you'd have a cell phone and give it to someone and Todd Freel would talk to him about the gospel.
That's how I know. No, the husband. I don't. Yeah. Mr. Trish. But hey, don't worry.
That's how a lot of people know him, too. Yeah. So funny enough.
But all right. Well, cool. So listen to John MacArthur and then go to YouTube and Twitter. And you can find Chris K-dub and the and there's a lot of videos you're putting out. Looks like what? One every week or so, something like that.
Yeah. I try to do like one to one a week at least.
And there's a lot of stuff here. You mean you talk about everything from Barnabas Piper and Lecrae and just Black Lives Matter in general. So, yeah, there's a lot of stuff here. And so I just encourage people to go check that out and and share it, too.
If you find a video that you think is helpful, don't be ashamed to share it on social media with your friends. I know that can be kind of scary sometimes, but sometimes, you know, that's the thing that can get through to someone when they see a way this guy explains it well or this guy can communicate with me and in ways that other people haven't been able to get through.
So check out Chris K-dub and that's that's all I got. Oh, one more thing. I forgot to ask you this support. I should always remember this. I'm bad about it with myself. I usually don't say it. Is there a place people can go to support you financially or otherwise?
Prayer or something?
Yeah, if they can. If they go to the YouTube, I have links there for Patreon, but for me, man, just just watching the videos and sharing that, that that is the support for me. And like you said, the praying for me.
So if if you just watching and sharing that to me, that's way bigger than giving giving money, you know, because I am way more concerned about people hearing what I'm doing. Well, you know, I believe is truthful and sincere.
And so if you don't have money to give, don't worry, there's there's other ways to support. You know, I'm all for that.
I'm assuming, though, the quality of the hip hop videos goes up as the Patreon support.
Increases. I could be wrong, but yeah, that definitely does help, you know. And so, yeah, you know, more more support could mean more videos and things like.
That. All right. Well, on that note, I'm going to let you go. Hey, I appreciate you sharing a little bit about your testimony yourself, what you're doing, and hopefully we can do this again at some point in the future.
Keep doing what you're doing, brother. Absolutely, man. God bless you. God bless. Bye now.