Jalal Abualrub Debate

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Upcoming Debate with Bart Ehrman and the Cruise in Fort Lauderdale

And good morning, welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning I can't believe how fast this year is flying by. Week from today will be the debate between Myself and a dr. Schwartz about whom I know absolutely positively nothing.

I don't like going into debate like that, but and In fact, I just got an email before I came in here that we are going to flip a coin as to who goes first I'm gonna write back and say, um if the topic is Gay marriage and one sides for it and one sides again it doesn't the the side that is Before it go first and then the side that's again it go second sort of how I thought it worked, but oh well, that doesn't seem to be how that's.

We'll see how that's a develops. Anyways, that's up in You know way up there I'm looking here at my computer and I guess I Hmm I thought I had something here. That's I had a bunch of stuff all lined up from last week.

And of course It's not there anymore. So, oh, well, I'd like to start today talking about a debate. That I was not at to talk about a debate that I will be at and I'm hoping that you will be at as well and specifically the fact that we have a debate coming up in January of oh nine haven't talked about it in a while and that is the tendency you announce it and then.

And then you get busy with other things and time is marching by and we have a debate with Bart Ehrman and Most of you well many of you would know if you have RSS readers and things like that that's a debate took place just recently between Dan Wallace and Bart Ehrman and Reading the reviews has been very very interesting to me and someone might have the question Well, you know if Dan did such a great job, you know, why why do it twice?

Well, they aren't the same debates. That's why Dan's debate was primarily on the reliability of the New Testament textual tradition and the manuscripts and Our debate is I think much more focused though clearly relevant to the same subject and That is that dr. Ehrman has this odd idea.

I consider it not idea I'd never really heard anyone enunciate it quite in this way before that if there is textual variation. Then this precludes the inspiration of the text evidently either God could not speak in a written form until computers were invented.

Or he could only speak in a such a Context as maybe something written upon a stone etched in stone so there could be no textual variation obviously, I believe that's a presuppositional assumption on his part and Will be addressing that but the point is that we will be having that debate.

I want to look at What Dan Wallace had to say and then encourage you to? Be thinking about the fact that that debate is right before a cruise that I believe you would really enjoy being on and being a part of and My understanding is we only have about two weeks left on those early bird rates and so I think we have till the end of April and That's not a long time and So hey, I just sort of figure.

Isn't the government supposed to be giving us money back this year? There you go. The government has decreed that you go on the cruise. Just taking away all excuses. Because what is it 600 bucks if you if you're getting something back?

Yeah? Well 600 bucks. I could get two people going you know that's there you go. No more excuses left. You just have to go with us on beautiful cruise four-day cruise after we have the debate with Bart Ehrman in Fort Lauderdale and You're gonna want to be there because in case you have forgotten Bart Ehrman is the person being cited by well everybody today.

Everybody cites Bart Ehrman the Muslim site Bart Ehrman and the atheist site Bart Ehrman. I played Christopher Hitchens citing Bart Ehrman and The irony was and I'm very very thankful that that he did this.

Dan Wallace Documented that what Bart Ehrman says in his popular books is not what Bart Ehrman says in his scholarly books, and I think. Well, let me just read you what? What Dan said here? He points out that hopefully next week the audios could be available.

I guess they don't videotape these things. Which which to me is a cry and shame? I mean, you know this is the kind of this is how people watch things today. They videotape them and they see them. It's not really videotape anymore anyways, but you know what I mean and.

But the audios could be out CD mp3 and then there's gonna be a Fortress Press book. Which I can guarantee if it's Fortress Press will be about 47 times more expensive than it needs to be. But anyway. At least hey, I I had to buy Fortress Press books and I was in seminary and it was always just unbelievably expensive, but then I've seen what my daughter's paying for Used books today.

It's like then never mind, but he says on his blog Dan Wallace's on his blog today. My major concern the conference was to address the confidence that we can have but the manuscripts are generally reliable.

Regarding the essential teaching of the New Testament. This was of utmost importance to me because of how many have read airmen's misquoting Jesus there has been a lot of wholesale skepticism about what the New Testament originally said an Impression the readers both have of his book and one that has been reinforced many times by interviews with airmen on the radio TV and in print.

The skepticism that he has promoted about the text in his popular writing doesn't match what he has said to professional colleagues. This is a major issue that I pointed out. I was very interested to learn what his real views were.

I'm not sure that I did but one thing I did learn airmen conceded that no Essential belief the New Testament was compromised by the textual variants. That's the main thing. I wanted to press for at the Greer heard conference.

This is an important point that should not be missed many Muslims Atheists and anti-christian groups have seen airmen as a champion for their views. And let me stop right there when I announced our debate I Mentioned to you a very large book that I have in my library Wherein a Muslim is arguing against the deity of Christ and Yes, he he makes liberal use of Bart Ehrman and believes him to be on his side.

Many Muslims atheists anti-christian groups have seen airmen as a champion for their views. But regardless of how much doubt he may have About the wording of the original text or how much doubt those who believe they are following his lead have.

No one can claim airmen as an advocate of an original text that did not speak of the deity of Christ or his bodily Resurrection boy is that relevant for example to the debates we had this weekend. To be sure there were several other issues that we disagreed on and airmen was right to raise the question about these important Matters.

In particular the interpretation of various passages depends on the variant readings and an exegete adopts. Airmen thought that I was only concerned about the theological issues, but that is hardly the case.

I was most concerned about that issue largely because of how airmen's writings have been interpreted by some people and how he Made it an issue in misquoting Jesus further. It's an issue in which heaven or hell hang the balance.

So I do think that's far more important than mere interpretive issues. Even though of course the interpretation of the text is exceedingly important it pales by comparison with theological issues at stake.

I think the reason that airmen did not consider the latter such to be a big issue anymore is because of where he has come. Where he has come I would imagine to in his theological thinking if there is no heaven or hell if there is no afterlife then of course the essential Christian beliefs are irrelevant.

A Good half dozen people came up to me during the conference mentioning that this conference would determine Whether they would continue to have confidence in the Bible or not. Some had come from hundreds of miles away even thousands all of them said that because the conference their confidence that we had today Essentially the Word of God was bolstered to be sure.

We do not know whether we have recovered the exact wording of the original and we may never know at the same time. We are getting closer and closer and no essential belief is affected by any viable variance quoting directly from Dan Wallace at this particular point, so The reviews I've been looking at I you know reviews are one thing I'd rather review it myself in other words.

I want to listen before I read a lot of the reviews I've actually purposefully skipped most of them. For that very reason because if you read a bunch of reviews, then you listen to what you're thinking about.

You've already sort of had your mind made up before you ever get there, and you might not really hear What's what's actually going on, but I am going to be very interested in hearing this because you know I? the only real debate that I've heard airmen in was with William Lane Craig and That really wasn't on that issue.

But I have listened to his presentation that he gave for misquoting Jesus Many many times and it's pretty much almost always the exact same presentation. There isn't a lot of variation in his presentation and from what I have seen of some of the summaries that I did read he pretty much gave the same presentation again and So it will be very interesting to me to see how there is any variation in his Presentation once we get to Fort Lauderdale because I think that is It's a very related topic the reliability of text New Testament very much related, but There is this Presupposition that if God has inspired something then he would not allow any textual variation whatsoever to exist within it that is something that we need to be looking at and of course that will then start off a Period of time we'll be looking at the truth of God's Word in a and an unbelieving world and my goodness I if you're looking for it Man, if you've got almost anything in your RSS feeds these days if you read newspapers or anything the the unbelief of the world the willingness the world to Just think in the most anti-christian of categories to have a reprobate mind is Is all around us every single day?

It's hard for me to believe that anyone can question the doctrine of total depravity when we see what is what is going on in our world today, and what people are willing to say and to believe and so There's going to be a number of great speakers I don't really count myself amongst them, but I'm going to be amongst those folks as we seek to not only respond to probably the Preeminent critic of the trustworthiness of New Testament.

But then to open that word and to encourage you to stand for that word. I surely do believe and This is indeed my my hope and my faith. I surely do believe that it is only the Spirit of God that can encourage his people in Having trust and confidence in his word now He does that through means and I hope and pray that this will be this debate will be part of those means.

But at the same time there is something very encouraging gathering with fellow believers around the topic of the Word of God and Hearing others and seeing that you're not alone so many Christians today are in such a small minority I can't help but think of my daughter's situation.

As she fights this battle she just this past week ended up in a debate in class with a professor on abortion and In fact I got back to my desk. I picked up my cell phone. And it was a quick request from my daughter for a particular biblical reference.

And I had been away from my desk for about 10 minutes. And so I see two messages one is the request and then about five minutes later Padre. You know like come on you're you're my resource here. What's what's going on?

You know and I know she's in class. So I'm quickly you know texting it back. You know of course I can't text nearly at the speed that she can I think the next generation. Maybe we have some evidence of natural selection here because the next generation their thumbs.

Clearly move much faster than my generation's thumbs move. Yeah, they're gonna have a whole new development of carpal tunnel.

Well I It still amazes me. She's using one of my old phones, and I I really wish there was some way To go back and to count the number of of keystrokes of how many times the buttons on that particular phone have been pressed.

It was definitely not made on a bad day because it has survived. I don't know many how many Thousands and thousands of text messages, it's it's funny, but anyway How to get there oh yes the the anti-christian Attitude of our society is absolutely pervasive and you can often feel very much alone very very much alone and so to get together with other believers and to just have that brief period of time can really provide you with a Shall we say a battery recharge that lasts for a long long time and so I hope that you will be considering very carefully the conference the debate the cruise that goes afterwards and Like I said with the government seeking to stimulate the economy.

Let's Economy by coming on on the cruise in in January and of course details are at www .aomin .org. Before we go to our phone calls I Did want to provide some other updates for you. This past weekend was truly amazing.

I Again it is my general practice to Allow the videotapes and audiotapes of debates to speak for themselves. And I really do believe that that's something we can allow this weekend's debates to do. But I also would would say that just simply on a on a scholarly level and when I refer to that I'm not talking about How many degrees you have after your name?

I'm talking about doing scholarship. I'm not buying it actually doing it and What that means is being able to present an argument that is sound That is thorough that is consistent that takes into consideration the relevant data that demonstrates you've done some research some serious research into various points of view and hence can make claims and Recognize and know that the claim you're making in this point is consistent with scholarship you used to make the claim that you're making in another point it's called doing scholarship and And The the debates this past weekend Once again illustrated something that should be should be very very troubling to the Muslims who listen to this program, and we know that there are Muslims who listen to this program quite regularly and that is once again, I have had demonstrated for me in glowing colors and with incredible clarity the double standards.

That's the defenders and presenters of Islam are willing to embrace when it comes to the inevitable clash. And I do say inevitable clash Between Christianity and Islam. I say it's inevitable because Islam defines itself through a negation of Christian faith.

I say it's also inevitable sadly because of the mindset of many people. In Islam one thing came out this weekend was the insistence by my opponent during our debate that Christianity invaded Iraq. That's Christianity is to be blamed for any of the activities of the American government.

This is the same American government my friends that for example is illustrated by One of the political Parties and one of its at least one of its I don't even know about the other one I would assume the same thing actually both of them now.

I think about it candidates. Supporting partial birth abortion which is called infanticide. The very idea That you would identify the American government as an extension of the Christian Church. Doing the bidding of some.

I don't know who as a as a Christian entity is so absurd. It is so ridiculous. It is it is the moon is made out of cheese ridiculous it destroys any level of of Possible rationality on your part really does.

And yet, this is what was being presented by by my opponent and It once again demonstrated to me that that I have I Have really not met many Muslims at all that have show any concern. For truth they think they have it but then they don't demonstrate it by actually being careful enough to want to know accurately what someone else believes and That's it.

It is of course no matter you know when as soon as I say that What happens is people will for example comment on my youtube videos? And if they don't interpret a passage of the Quran the way I do then they accuse me of doing the same thing my opponent was doing where he was mistranslating the Bible and ripping it out of context and and Making stuff up about history Constantine forcing the Trinity on the church and all the rest is silliness.

Differing interpretations. I can defend my interpretation of say surah 5 in the Quran. That's not the same thing as deciding that we need to completely mistranslate surah 5 in the Quran and once again it amazes me how many people who Profess the Islamic faith just simply refuse to think in an accurate rational Consistent manner, it's just it's just shocking to me, and I will say this after the debates this weekend and the debates three weeks ago almost four weeks ago now in in Norfolk.

One of my opponents in the Islamic realm continues to look better and better and better. That's a debate opponent and that of course should be Raleigh at least Shabir Ali when I Disagree with him. Here's what I'm saying.

I don't agree I you know one of my biggest criticisms of Shabir of course is the inconsistency of utilizing left-wing liberal Christian theologians as if that's somehow relevant to me without addressing the presuppositions They're bringing to the text and so he's not guiltless in this, but oh my goodness in comparison As far as hearing the weight of the objection considering the weight of the objection trying at least to provide some kind of Rational response to it.

I'm sorry so far Shabir is the only one that I've encountered that even makes the attempt I'm not saying it's successful at it, but at least it makes the attempt for crying out loud. It's just I mean David Wood debated Jalal Abu al-Roub on Is Muhammad the Prophet and I was a little concerned about that because In the pre debate stuff one of the things that have been requested was no blasphemy of the Prophet.

Well the problem is from Islam's perspective if you do not accept Muhammad as a prophet you're blaspheming him period. So just to be a Christian to show up to exist means you're blaspheming the Prophet which of course I find utterly irrational as well and So I Was a little concerned about that and and and David is an excellent debater.

He's Very laid-back in his presentation. He doesn't talk nearly as fast as I do it. He can if he wants to he can he can start getting into it. But he generally You know is is less Forceful in his presentation than I am and Certainly less forceful than Sam Shamoon is.

And that's just that's just a description of the presentation not the content, that's just you know how he presents it. He can do it. You know in a very kind manner and so the debate went very well, but it was interesting because Jalal is Complaining about even raising the issue of the satanic verses well That's Ibn Ishaq and you know this you know we we reject that and and you're taking things out of context and of course the only thing he really focused upon there as I recall was the Specific issue of that and then of course the discussion of Aisha and whether that's right or wrong and etc etc.

The standard stuff that you get into in that particular discussion of course David presented a much wider range of discussion and and Is in my debate Jalal really did not interact with with with major portions of the actual content of the argumentation was being presented.

But he did strongly Rebuke us for daring to say anything about the Quran. David had raised the Argument from literary excellence, which is part. It's what the Quran itself argues which in essence is my poetry is better than your poetry and My Quran is better than anything you can write and I've always found this argument to be just so utterly facile.

So so utterly without meaning completely subjective. I mean I clearly truly believe that there is Hebrew poetry and Isaiah and the Psalter and so on so forth. It is far beyond anything found in the Quran, but I would never use this as an argument.

Because it's completely subjective. There's there's no objective standards. You can appeal to here. Well in his response Jalal is like how dare you if you cannot read the Arabic then you can't even talk about these things.

You need to be careful about your sources. You need to you need to look at the languages you need to be only quoting people who know the languages you need to check your sources and your background and blah blah blah and of course I agree with all that and I believe that that had nothing to do with really providing a meaningful response to David unless he's trying to say well This only works in Arabic and of course David's response was well if it only works in Arabic.

How can this be an argument for all people when only a small percentage of the world's populations ever to be able to evaluate the argument? Anyways, if that's your main argument, that ain't much of an argument.

And of course he was quite right about that but then To have him engage my debate where you know, he's complaining now that I talked about online online internet encyclopedias. What I was referring to was the specific source that he used to garner his John one one stuff is a is a nine dollar and ninety nine cents CD.

You can buy from Amazon. It's available online and It's old Public domain stuff. This isn't meaningful sound scholarship, but he's quoting it and Clearly doesn't even know what he's quoting doesn't understand what he's quoting.

He doesn't know the languages and he would not take responsibility for vetting his sources as long as the source is out there and it says something about Greek evidently, it's okay to use and Everybody in the audience.

Well, I can't say everybody in the audience obviously there were Muslims there that weren't listening to a word I had to say anyways, but At least the vast majority of the audience. I think all the Christians in the audience.

We're seeing they're going. It's dr. Jekyll and mr. Hyde, you know, dr. Jekyll in the first debate you you got to know Arabic and you got to check His arses. Mr. Hyde in the second debate is going. Ah, who cares?

Hey, it's your problem. I don't know Greek. What is that? What does it matter, you know? It's absolutely Amazing to watch the the transformation and I think he knew it I think he was he was he was struggling a good bit at that point and You know the stuff that he came up with the Constantine again, it's it's just You know, and then of course, I loved the well you want my sources.

I'll post them on my blog in 10 days. Ah Would can you imagine the hue and cry That would go up if I ever pulled a stunt like that if I ever went into a debate with anybody Roman Catholic Mormon Jehovah's Witness Muslim doesn't matter and I start making statements and I start making claims and and there's stuff I've put in my books even and Then when challenged to go well I can't really tell you, you know.

But I'll I'll put all this stuff on my blog in 10 days.

Let's just hope this doesn't turn into. You know, 30 days or 60 days. Oh like certain people like guardian.

Amazing. And I couldn't help but but think of something that should be Raleigh said to Sam Shimon. Because he made the case in their argument. Hey, you can't be referring to your website. This is a scholarly argument.

You bring it here and all the Muslims are going. You know, so if the Muslim says hey don't refer to you know. Give the site citations here a lot of Akbar if the if the Muslim says, ah, I'll post in 10 days I'll walk part.

Yeah, that doesn't matter. It's just oh man, I Don't they see the double standard don't they see I don't know it is it is truly amazing to me. It just you just go. Wow. That's what I've tried to say to people like, you know, Sammy's a toddy, you know when he posts stuff like he posted about Christianity showing not the slightest interest in in a bit of fairness a tiny bit of accuracy.

That kind of Islam Repulses me because no truth-loving individual could ever embrace it. You would have to rid yourself of all love of truth to embrace that kind of stuff you just you just have to you just have to erase it from your memory and you know, whatever Muhammad says that's what I believe and that's all there is to it and that's that's a that's that's that thing but I Don't know when the when the tapes will be out, but we will of course let you know when they are.

We are going to take a break and take your phone calls 877 -753 -3341. We'll be right back.

Gospel, Truth, and the Need for Clear Teaching

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Ponderites, Internet Double Standards, and the Steve Gregg Debate

And we'll go back to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning. I think that's what it is. I've been a little busy recently and I don't get to slow down because Even after the gay marriage debate next Tuesday up in San Francisco, which of course means there will be no dividing line next Tuesday I'll have a few weeks for the fire conference in Northern, California in May.

I thought April was going to be a time for me to get some reading and writing done and didn't happen there so As I say to any I see young people come into the channel once a while and I say I'm bored and I my response Is always the same.

I have not been bored since 1978 and that is actually a True statement if James can hold on just one moment. Just a couple more minutes. We'll be getting to him. I I did want to mention just one other thing in passing There has been some interesting banter going about on the Internet ever since the Steve Gregg debate and I Am doing my best to try to ignore it or at least not Invest much in the way of time in it because I just have too much else to be doing right now.

I really need to Be starting to focus on The stuff in the fall and all the major projects I need to get to get done and and just really need to let some of this other noise just just be noise and do its thing and But one of the things that struck me is quite interesting is There's people that I call Ponderites And those who know the history of this know why I call them Ponderites and those who don't don't really need to know the history anyways, just take it on my word that I call them Ponderites and They have a particular hobby horse that they that they ride and that's their big thing and that evidently gives their life meaning so that's good thing I suppose but I noticed that as soon as The last program aired and Steve Gregg asked me a particular question.

Now. What was interesting was I Was reading I read last week one of the Ponderites who went after me immediately on that response I provided immediately and then another one wrote to me this past week and has posted something and One of the things that struck me Was how quickly they were on this is some of the language that they've used For example, I did I Evidently misheard.

I'd certainly have not wasted the time to go back and listen to Steve Gregg's actual question to see whether it was I miss hearing or just what it was, but There was an element of the question that I misheard and in fact, he then repeated it if you remember that last question and In Looking at the responses how fast they've been and then the fact that for example one of the Ponderites Said it was a very specific and clearly worded question I'm sort of wondering where did Steve Gregg get this question might it have been Suggested to him by people who call themselves reformed.

Except they have one primary variation. That is their Emerald Ian's They seem to be significantly more concerned about that one particular issue than almost anything Steve Gregg had to say including his Inability to see open theism for the heresy that is and things like that but that's what marks Ponderites is that they're they're primarily focused upon Calvinists and I really have to wonder if maybe We have a situation here where There was a desire to use this particular debate just to just to once again Get the debate going on their Emerald Ian distinctives Mainly because I'll be primarily most people don't listen to what these guys have to say.

Anyways, they they're there They're one-trick ponies. They just do this one thing and eventually people to sort of go Okay, fine, whatever and and move on to other things and and I think people can tell when folks have an imbalance where they're they're constantly harping on one thing and You can say all sorts of nasty things about me if you want.

That's a seems to be a very popular internet pastime. But the fact the matter is I address a wide variety of issues, you know I mean look at the debates I've done over the past ten years. That's a pretty wide variety of stuff, you know from John Dominic Crossan John Shelby Spong Gay marriage all the Islam materials.

It's it's a fair wide fairly wide variety of stuff and I think one of the things that bugs these people so much is that is that they can't really get anybody to listen to much of what they have to say for a long period of time and so it just struck me that It's possible and maybe I'm wrong.

I don't know I'm not gonna waste my time tracking this stuff down, but it just struck me as rather odd That it seemed like this group as a group was just sitting there waiting And then pounced on this stuff just to try to stoke the fires and get get the stuff going back to you know Making various and sundry accusations at me and things like that.

And so I was very very thankful and and I should I Don't want this to sound cheesy or anything like that. But you know there have been so many times recently during one of the debates back in Norfolk I I grabbed my BlackBerry jumped in the channel said guys.

I need this and There's not always but especially during high traffic times. There's almost always somebody in the channel in our chat channel who will drop whatever they're doing and Has the background and the insight to be able to track down the information that I need.

And it's become a real real resource, and there are some very Bright folks that is part of that little family of folks. We sort of almost felt invaded last week by the Steve Greggites Who? Would come in and try to throw a little bombs in to see what kind of quotes they'd come up with one man came in Just to log the channel just to post the logs elsewhere and stuff like that and that highly offended me.

But There's some really sharp folks in there, and you know we have our disagreements With each other and that's natural and we're sinners and so we step on each other's toes and things like that that that's.

That's that's you know the same the same thing that happens. I'm not saying that we're that we're perfect or anything like that. But there are folks in there that Regularly interact who have different perspectives on things you know I think of Cranmer the the last living Orthodox Anglican.

And one of those folks is Turretin fan. His blog his blog is Turretin fan. That's t-u-r-r-e-t-i-n for those of you who for some strange reason don't have the Institutes of Linguistic Theology sitting on your desk Turretinfan .blogspot .com and he has an article up dated today Dr.. White's more recent debate and there were some links there.

I had not even seen of people giving some reports on the debate with the Jalal al-Roub and Things like that, but I I liked the beginning. It says while ponters colleagues are raising a tempest about dr. White's debate with Steve Gregg dr. White has recently concluded another debate this one against a Muslim opponent and obviously Turretinfan and I would Debate baptism and a few issues like that and might maybe even some textual perspectives and stuff like that but there are a lot of folks in the channel and we we can get along because we don't demand that folks be cookie cutter images of ourselves and anyone who thinks that I demand that of people just doesn't know me and Half the time when I see people talking about me on the internet I wouldn't even recognize me if I didn't see my name there or a bad distorted picture posted but I appreciated the links that were they were provided there and and The work that he often does I didn't even realize for example the man that I quoted last week was one of the Ponderites until I saw that on his blog and so I have his blog in my in my RSS readers and many other people in the in the channel as as well so I appreciate the fact that there are some folks there who in essence have my back shall we say and Are real resources of information for me as well.

So a shout out to all the channel rats and how often they are very very useful. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number. Let's finally get around to talking to James over in Glendale.