Jalal Abualrub Debate

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three -three -four -one and now with today's topic.

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Here is James white Thank you, Maury. Welcome to the dividing line on a

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Tuesday morning. I can't believe how fast this year is flying by Week from today will be the debate between Myself and a dr.

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Schwartz about whom I know absolutely positively nothing don't like going in a debate like that, but and In fact,

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I just got an email before I came in here that we are going to flip a coin as to who goes first I'm gonna write back and say, um if the topic is

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Gay marriage and one sides for it and one sides again it doesn't the the side that is

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For it go first and then the side that's again it go second sort of how

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I thought it worked, but oh, well, that doesn't seem to be how that's

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We'll see how that's a develops. But anyways, that's up in You know way up there

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I'm looking here at my computer and I guess I Hmm I thought I had something here that I had a bunch of stuff all lined up from last week.

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And of course It's not there anymore. So, oh, well, I'd like to start today talking about a debate

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That I was not at to talk about a debate that I will be at and I'm hoping that you will be at as well and specifically the fact that we have a debate coming up in January of oh nine haven't talked about it in a while and that is the tendency you announce it and then and then you get busy with other things and time is marching by and We have a debate with Bart Ehrman and Most of you well many of you would know if you have

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RSS readers and things like that that's a debate took place just recently between Dan Wallace and Bart Ehrman and Reading the reviews has been very very interesting to me and someone might have the question

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Well, you know if Dan did such a great job, you know, why why do it twice? Well, they aren't the same debates.

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That's why Dan's debate was primarily on the reliability of the

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New Testament textual tradition and the manuscripts and Our debate is

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I think much more focused though clearly relevant to the same subject and That is that dr.

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Ehrman has this odd idea. I consider it not idea I'd never really heard anyone enunciate it quite in this way before that if there is textual variation

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Then this precludes the inspiration of the text evidently either God could not speak in a written form until computers were invented

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Or he could only speak in a such a context as maybe something written upon a stone etched in stone so there could be no textual variation, obviously,

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I believe that's a presuppositional assumption on his part and Will be addressing that but the point is that we will be having that debate.

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I want to look at What Dan Wallace had to say and then encourage you to be thinking about the fact that that debate is right before a cruise that I believe you would really enjoy being on and being a part of and My understanding is we only have about two weeks left on those early bird rates and so I think we have till the end of April and that's not a long time and So hey,

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I just sort of figure Isn't the government supposed to be giving us money back this year? There you go

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The government has decreed that you go on the cruise Just taking away all excuses

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Because what is it 600 bucks if you if you're getting something back? Yeah. Well 600 bucks

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I could get two people going, you know, that's there you go. No more excuses left

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You just have to go with us on beautiful cruise four -day cruise after we have the debate with Bart Ehrman in Fort Lauderdale and You're gonna want to be there because in case you have forgotten

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Bart Ehrman is the person being cited by well everybody today Everybody cites

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Bart Ehrman the Muslim site Bart Ehrman and the atheist site Bart Ehrman. I played Christopher Hitchens citing

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Bart Ehrman and The irony was and I'm very very thankful that he did this

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Dan Wallace Documented that what Bart Ehrman says in his popular books is not what

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Bart Ehrman says in his scholarly books and I think Well, let me just read you what?

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What Dan said here? He points out that hopefully next week the audios could be available. I guess they don't videotape these things

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Which which to me is a cry and shame I mean, you know, this is the kind of this is how people watch things today

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They videotape them and they see them. It's not really videotape anymore. Anyways, but you know what I mean and But the audios could be out

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CD mp3 and then there's going to be a fortress press book Which I can guarantee if it's Fortress Press will be about 47 times more expensive than it needs to be.

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But anyway, uh, At least hey, I I had to buy Fortress Press books and I was in seminary and it was always just unbelievably expensive

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But then I've seen what my daughter is paying for Used books today.

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It's like never mind, but he says on his blog Dan Wallace's on his blog today My major concern the conference was to address the confidence that we can have

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But the manuscripts are generally reliable regarding the essential teaching of the New Testament This was of utmost importance to me because of how many have read airmen's misquoting

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Jesus there has been a lot of wholesale skepticism about what the New Testament originally said an

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Impression the readers both have of his book and one that has been reinforced many times by interviews with airmen on the radio

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TV and in print The skepticism that he has promoted about the text in his popular writing doesn't match what he has said to professional colleagues

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This is a major issue that I pointed out. I was very interested to learn what his real views were

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I'm not sure that I did but one thing I did learn airmen conceded that no Essential belief the

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New Testament was compromised by the textual variants. That's the main thing I wanted to press for at the

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Greer heard conference. This is an important point. That should not be missed many Muslims Atheists and anti -christian groups have seen airmen as a champion for their views and let me stop right there when

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I announced our debate I Mentioned to you a very large book that I have in my library

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Wherein a Muslim is arguing against the deity of Christ and Yes, he he makes liberal use of Bart airmen and believes him to be on his side

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Many Muslims atheists and anti -christian groups have seen airmen as a champion for their views But regardless of how much doubt he may have

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About the wording of the original text or how much doubt those who believe they are following his lead have

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No one can claim airmen as an advocate of an original text that did not speak of the deity of Christ or his bodily resurrection boy is

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That relevant for example to the debates we had this weekend To be sure there were several other issues that we disagreed on and airmen was right to raise the question about these important matters in Particular the interpretation of various passages depends on the variant readings and an exegete adopts

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Airmen thought that I was only concerned about the theological issues, but that is hardly the case I was most concerned about that issue largely because of how airmen's writings have been interpreted by some people and how he

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Made it an issue in misquoting Jesus further. It's an issue in which heaven or hell hang the balance So I do think that's far more important than mere interpretive issues

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Even though of course the interpretation of the text is exceedingly important it pales by comparison with theological issues at stake

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I think the reason that airmen did not consider the latter such to be a big issue anymore is because of where he has

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Come where he has come I would imagine to and it's theological thinking if there is no heaven or hell if there is no afterlife then of course the essential

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Christian beliefs are irrelevant a Good half dozen people came up to me during the conference mentioning that this conference would determine

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Whether they would continue to have confidence in the Bible or not Some had come from hundreds of miles away even thousands all of them said that because the conference their confidence that we had today

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Essentially the Word of God was bolstered to be sure We do not know whether we have recovered the exact wording of the original and we may never know at the same time

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We are getting closer and closer and no essential belief is affected by any viable variance quoting directly from Dan Wallace at this particular point, so The reviews

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I've been looking at I you know reviews are one thing I'd rather review it myself in other words.

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I want to listen before I read a lot of the reviews I've actually purposefully skipped most of them

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For that very reason because if you read a bunch of reviews, then you listen to what you're thinking about You've already sort of had your mind made up before you ever get there, and you might not really hear what's what's actually going on, but I am going to be very interested in hearing this because you know

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I the only real debate that I've heard airmen in was with William Lane Craig and That really wasn't on that issue

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But I have listened to his presentation that he gave for misquoting

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Jesus Many many times and it's pretty much almost always the exact same presentation

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There isn't a lot of variation in his presentation and from what I have seen of some of the summaries that I did read he pretty much gave the same presentation again and So it will be very interesting to me to see how there is any variation in his presentation once we get to Fort Lauderdale because I think that is

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It's a very related topic the reliability of text in the New Testament very much related, but There is this

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Presupposition that if God has inspired something then he would not allow any textual variation whatsoever to exist within it that is something that we need to be looking at and of course that will then start off a

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Period of time we'll be looking at the truth of God's Word in a in an unbelieving world and my goodness

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I if you're looking for it Man, if you've got almost anything in your RSS feeds these days if you read newspapers or anything the the unbelief of the world the willingness the world to just think in the most anti -christian of categories to have a reprobate mind is

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Is all around us every single day? It's hard for me to believe that anyone can question the doctrine of total depravity when we see what is what is going on in our world today, and what people are willing to say and to believe and so There's going to be a number of great speakers

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I don't really count myself amongst them, but I'm going to be amongst those folks as we seek to not only respond to probably the

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Preeminent critic of the trustworthiness in the New Testament But then to open that word and to encourage you to stand for that word.

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I surely do believe and This is indeed my my hope and my faith

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I surely do believe that it is only the Spirit of God that can encourage his people in Having trust and confidence in his word now

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He does that through means and I hope and pray that this will be this debate will be part of those means

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But at the same time there is something very encouraging gathering with fellow believers around the topic of the

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Word of God and Hearing others and seeing that you're not alone so many

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Christians today are in such a small minority I can't help but think of my daughter's situation As she fights this battle she just this past week ended up in a debate in class with a professor on abortion and In fact

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I got back to my desk I picked up my cell phone and It was a quick request from my daughter for a particular biblical reference

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And I had been away from my desk for about 10 minutes And so I see two messages one is the request and then about five minutes later

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Padre You know like come on you're you're my resource here. What's what's going on? You know and I know she's in class

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So I'm quickly you know texting it back you know of course I can't text nearly at the speed that she can I think the next generation

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Maybe we have some evidence of natural selection here because the next generation their thumbs Clearly move much faster than my generation's thumbs move.

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Yeah, I think I have a whole new development of carpal tunnel Well I It still amazes me.

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She's using one of my old phones, and I I really wish there was some way To go back and to count the number of of keystrokes of how many times the buttons on that particular phone have been pressed

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It was definitely not made on a bad day because it has survived. I don't know many how many

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Thousands and thousands of text messages, it's it's funny, but anyway How to get there oh yes the the anti -christian

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Attitude of our society is absolutely pervasive and you can often feel very much alone very very much alone and so to get together with other believers and to just have that brief period of time can really provide you with a

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Shall we say a battery recharge that lasts for a long long time, and so I hope that you will be considering very carefully the conference the debate the cruise that goes afterwards and Like I said with the government seeking to stimulate the economy.

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Let's Economy coming on on the cruise in in January and of course details are at www .aomin

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.org Before we go to our phone calls I did want to provide some other updates for you

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This past weekend was truly amazing I Again it is my general practice to Allow the videotapes and audio tapes of debates to speak for themselves

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And I really do believe that that's something we can allow this weekend's debates to do But I also would would say that just simply on a on a scholarly level and when

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I refer to that I'm not talking about How many degrees you have after your name? I'm talking about doing scholarship not buying it actually doing it and What that means is being able to present an argument that is sound

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That is thorough that is consistent That takes into consideration the relevant data that demonstrates you've done some research some serious research into various points of view and hence can make claims and Recognize and know that the claim you're making in this point is consistent with scholarship

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You used to make the claim that you're making in another point. It's called doing scholarship and The the debates this past weekend

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Once again illustrated something that should be should be very very troubling To the

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Muslims who listen to this program and we know that there are Muslims who listen to this program quite regularly and that is once again,

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I have had demonstrated for me in glowing colors and with incredible clarity the double standards that The defenders and presenters of Islam are willing to embrace when it comes to the inevitable clash and I do say inevitable clash between Christianity and Islam I say it's inevitable because Islam defines itself through a negation of Christian faith.

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I Say it's also inevitable sadly because of the mindset of many people

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In Islam one thing came out this weekend was the insistence by my opponent During our debate that Christianity invaded

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Iraq That Christianity is to be blamed for any of the activities of the

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American government. This is the same American government my friends that for example is illustrated by One of the political

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Parties and one of its at least one of its I don't even know about the other one I would assume the same thing actually both of them now.

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I think about it candidates Supporting partial birth abortion, which is called infanticide

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The very idea That you would identify the

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American government as an extension of the Christian Church Doing the bidding of some

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I don't know who as a as a Christian entity is so absurd It is so ridiculous.

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It is it is the moon is made out of cheese ridiculous It destroys any level of of of possible rationality on your part really does

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And yet this is what was being presented by by my opponent and It once again demonstrated to me that that I have

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I Have really not met many Muslims at all that have show any concern For truth they think they have it, but then they don't demonstrate it by actually being careful enough

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To want to know accurately what someone else believes and that's it. It is of course no matter you know as soon as I say that What happens is people will for example comment on my youtube videos?

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And if they don't interpret a passage of the Quran the way I do then they accuse me of doing the same thing my opponent was doing where he was mistranslating the

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Bible and ripping it out of context and and Making stuff up about history Constantine forcing the

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Trinity on the church and all the rest is silliness Differing interpretations, I can defend my interpretation of say surah 5 in the

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Quran That's not the same thing as deciding that we need to completely mistranslate surah 5 in the

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Quran and once again It amazes me how many people who? profess the

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Islamic faith just simply refuse to think in an accurate rational

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Consistent manner, it's just it's just shocking to me, and I will say this after the debates this weekend and the debate three weeks ago almost four weeks ago now in in Norfolk One of my opponents in the

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Islamic realm continues to look better and better and better That's in a debate opponent and that of course should be

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Raleigh at least should barely when I Disagree with him Here's what

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I'm saying. I don't agree I you know one of my biggest criticisms of Shabir of course is the inconsistency of utilizing left -wing liberal

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Christian theologians as if that's somehow relevant to me without addressing the presuppositions They're bringing to the text and so he's not guiltless in this, but oh my goodness in comparison as far as hearing the weight of the objection

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Considering the weight of the objection trying at least to provide some kind of rational response to it

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I'm sorry so far Shabir is the only one that I've encountered that even makes the attempt

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I'm not saying it's successful at it, but at least it makes the attempt for crying out loud It's just I mean a

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David Wood debated Jalal Abu Alrub on his Muhammad the

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Prophet and I was a little concerned about that because In the pre debate stuff one of the things that have been requested was no blasphemy of the

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Prophet well The problem is from Islam's perspective if you do not accept Muhammad as a prophet you're blaspheming him period

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So just to be a Christian to show up to exist means you're blaspheming the Prophet which of course

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I find utterly irrational as well and so I Was a little concerned about that and and and David is an excellent debater.

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He's Very laid -back in his presentation He doesn't talk nearly as fast as I do he can if he wants to he can he can start getting into it

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But he generally You know is is less Forceful in his presentation than I am and Certainly less forceful than Sam Shimon is

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And That's just that's just a description of the presentation not the content. That's just you know how he presents it

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He can do it. You know in a very kind manner and so the debate went very well, but it was interesting because Jalal is

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Complaining about even raising the issue of this satanic versus well That's Ibn Ishaq and you know this you know we we reject that and and you're taking things out of context and of course the only thing he really focused upon there as I recall was the

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Specific issue of that and then of course the discussion of Aisha, and whether that's right or wrong and etc etc

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The standard stuff that you get into in that particular discussion of course David presented a much wider range of discussion and Is in my debate

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Jalal really did not interact with with with major portions of the actual content of the argumentation was being presented

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But he did strongly Rebuke us for daring to say anything about the

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Quran David had raised the Argument from literary excellence, which is part.

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It's what the Quran itself argues which in essence is my poetry is better than your poetry and My Quran is better than anything you can write and I've always found this argument to be just so utterly facile

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So so utterly without meaning completely subjective I mean I clearly truly believe that there is

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Hebrew poetry and Isaiah and the Psalter and so on so forth It is far beyond anything found the Quran, but I would never use this as an argument

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Because it's completely subjective. There's there's no objective standards. You can appeal to here

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Well in his response Jalal is like how dare you if you cannot read the Arabic then you can't even talk about these things

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You need to be careful about your sources you need to you need to look at the languages You need to be only quoting people who know the languages you need to check your sources and your background and blah blah blah

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And of course I agree with all that and I believe that that had nothing to do with really providing a meaningful response to David Unless he's trying to say well

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This only works in Arabic and of course David's response was well if it only works in Arabic How can this be an argument for all people when only a small percentage of the world's populations ever to be able to evaluate their argument?

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Anyways, if that's your main argument, that ain't much of an argument. And of course he was quite right about that but then

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To have him engage my debate where you know, he's complaining now that I talked about online online internet encyclopedias

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What I was referring to was the specific source that he used to garner his

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John 1 1 stuff is a is a $9 .99 CD. You can buy from Amazon.

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It's available online and It's old Public domain stuff.

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This isn't meaningful sound scholarship, but he's quoting it and Clearly doesn't even know what he's quoting doesn't understand what he's quoting

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He doesn't know the languages and he would not take responsibility for vetting his sources as long as the source is out there and it says something about Greek evidently, it's okay to use and Everybody in the audience.

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Well, I can't say everybody in the audience obviously there were Muslims there that weren't listening to a word I had to say anyways, but At least the vast majority of the audience.

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I think all the Christians in the audience. We're sitting there going It's dr. Jekyll and mr.

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Hyde, you know, dr. Jekyll in the first debate. You got to know Arabic and you got to check your sources Mr. Hyde in the second debate is going who cares?

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Hey, it's your problem. I don't know Greek. What is that? What does it matter? You know It's absolutely amazing

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To watch the the the transformation and I think he knew it I think he was he was he was struggling a good bit at that point and You know the stuff that he came up with the

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Constantine again, it's it's just You know, and then of course, I loved the well you want my sources.

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I'll post them on my blog in ten days Would can you imagine the hue and cry that would go up if I ever pulled a stunt like that if I ever went into a debate with anybody

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Roman Catholic Mormon Jehovah's Witness Muslim doesn't matter and I start making statements and I start making claims and and there's stuff

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I've put in my books even and Then when challenged to go well

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I can't really tell you, you know But I'll I'll put all this stuff on my blog in ten days

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Let's just hope this doesn't turn into you know, 30 days or 60 days. Oh like certain people like Guardian Amazing And I couldn't help but but think of something that should be

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Raleigh said To Sam Shimon Because he made the case in their argument.

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Hey, you can't be referring to your website This is a scholarly argument. You bring it here and all the Muslims are going

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You know, so if the Muslim says hey don't refer to you know Give the site citations here a lot of Akbar if the if the

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Muslim says, ah, I'll post it ten days I'll walk by it doesn't matter It's just oh

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Oh man, I Don't they see the double standard don't they see

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I don't know it is it is truly amazing to me It just you just go Wow That's what

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I've tried to say to people like, you know, Sammy's a toddy, you know when he posts stuff like he posted about Christianity showing not the lightest interest in in a

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Bit of fairness a tiny bit of accuracy That kind of Islam Repulses me because no truth -loving individual could ever embrace it

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You would have to rid yourself of all love of truth

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To embrace that kind of stuff. You just you just have to you just have to erase it from your memory and you know, whatever

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Muhammad says that's what I believe and that's all there is to it and that's that's a that's that sad thing, but I Don't know when the when the tapes will be out but we will of course let you know when they are

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We are going to take a break and take your phone calls eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

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We'll be right back Hello everyone.

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This is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

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Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha and Omega ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

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Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?

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We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

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Support Alpha and Omega ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

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Thank you Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word may be

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James White's most provocative book yet White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned

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Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see

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The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his word. What has happened to this sacred duty in our day?

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The charges are as follows prostitution using the gospel for financial gain pandering to pluralism cowardice under fire felonious eisegesis entertainment without a license and Cross -dressing ignoring

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God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women is a public crime occurring in your town Get pulpit crimes in the bookstore at a omen org

30:35

And I'll go back to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning. I think that's what it is

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I've been a little busy recently and I don't get to slow down because Even after the gay marriage debate next

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Tuesday up in San Francisco, which of course means there will be no dividing line next Tuesday I'll have a few weeks for the fire conference in Northern, California in May I thought

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April was going to be a time for me to get some reading and writing done and didn't happen there so as I say to any

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I see young people come into the channel once a while and I say I'm bored and I my response is always the same.

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I have not been bored since 1978 and that is actually a True statement if James can hold on just one moment just a couple more minutes.

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We'll be getting to him I I did want to mention just one other thing in passing. There has been some interesting banter going about on the

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Internet ever since the Steve Gregg debate and I Am doing my best to try to ignore it or at least not

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Invest much in the way of time in it because I just have too much else to be doing right now.

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I really need to Be starting to focus on the stuff in the fall and all the major projects

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I need to get to get done and and just really need to let some of this other noise just just be noise and do its thing and And But one of the things that struck me is quite interesting is there's people that I call

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Ponderites And those who know the history of this know why I call them

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Ponderites and those who don't don't really need to know the history anyways, just take it on my word that I call them Ponderites and They have a particular hobby horse that they that they ride and that's their big thing and that evidently gives their life meaning

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So that's good thing. I suppose but noticed that as soon as the last program aired and Steve Gregg asked me a particular question.

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Now. What was interesting was I Was reading I read last week one of the

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Ponderites who went after me immediately on that response

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I provided immediately and then another one wrote to me this past week and has posted something and One of the things that struck me was how quickly they were on this is some of the language that they've used

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For example, I did I Evidently misheard. I'd certainly have not wasted the time to go back and listen to Steve Gregg's actual question to see whether it was

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I miss hearing or just what it was, but there was an element of the question that I misheard and in fact, he then repeated it if you remember that last question and In Looking at the responses how fast they've been and then the fact that for example one of the

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Ponderites Said it was a very specific and clearly worded question

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I'm sort of wondering where did Steve Gregg get this question might it have been

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Suggested to him by people who call themselves reformed Except they have one primary variation that is their

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Emerald Ian's They seem to be significantly more concerned about that one particular issue than almost anything

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Steve Gregg had to say including his Inability to see open theism for the heresy that is and things like that but that's what marks

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Ponderites is that they're they're primarily focused upon Calvinists and I really have to wonder if maybe

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We have a situation here where There was a desire to use this particular debate just to just to once again

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Get the debate going on their Emerald Ian distinctives

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Mainly because I'll be primarily most people don't listen to what these guys have to say. Anyways, they they're there

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They're one -trick ponies. They just do this one thing and eventually people to sort of go Okay, fine, whatever and and move on to other things and and I think people can tell when folks have an imbalance where they're they're constantly harping on one thing and You can say all sorts of nasty things about me if you want

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That's a seems to be a very popular internet pastime But the fact the matter is I address a wide variety of issues, you know

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I mean look at the debates I've done over the past ten years That's a pretty wide variety of stuff, you know from John Dominic crossin

35:27

John Shelby spong Gay marriage all the Islam materials

35:32

It's it's a fair wide fairly wide variety of stuff and I think one of the things that bugs these people so much is that is that They can't really get anybody to listen to much of what they have to say for a long period of time and so it just struck me that It's possible and maybe

35:48

I'm wrong I don't know. I'm not gonna waste my time tracking this stuff down, but it just struck me as rather odd That it seemed like this group as a group was just sitting there waiting

36:00

And then pounced on this stuff just to try to stoke the fires and get get the stuff going back to you know

36:06

Making various and sundry accusations at me and things like that. And so I was very very thankful and and I should

36:11

I Don't want this to sound cheesy or anything like that But you know there have been so many times recently during one of the debates back in Norfolk I I grabbed my

36:23

BlackBerry jumped in the channel said guys. I need this and There's not always but especially during high traffic times.

36:32

There's almost always somebody in the channel in our chat channel who will drop whatever they're doing and Has the background and the insight to be able to track down the information that I need

36:46

And it's become a real real resource, and there are some very

36:51

Bright folks that is part of that little family of folks. We sort of almost felt invaded last week by the

37:00

Steve Greggites Who? Would come in and try to throw a little bombs in to see what kind of quotes they come up with one man came in just To log the channel just to post the logs elsewhere and stuff like that and that highly offended me

37:14

But There's some really sharp folks in there, and you know we have our disagreements

37:21

With each other and that's natural and we're sinners and so we step on each other's toes and things like that that that's

37:28

That's that's you know the same the same thing that happens. I'm not saying that we're that we're perfect or anything like that But there are folks in there that Regularly interact who have different perspectives on things you know

37:42

I think of Cranmer out the the last living Orthodox Anglican And one of those folks is

37:51

Turretin fan His blog his blog is turretin fan That's t u r r e t i n for those of you who for some strange reason don't have the

38:01

Institutes of Theology sitting on your desk Turretin fan blogspot .com and he has an article up dated today dr.

38:10

White's more recent debate and there were some links there I had not even seen of people giving some reports on the debate with the

38:16

Jalal Abu al -rub and things like that, but I Liked the beginning it says while ponters colleagues are raising a tempest about dr.

38:25

White's debate with Steve Gregg dr. White has recently concluded another debate this one against a Muslim Opponent and obviously turrets and fan and I would

38:34

Debate baptism and a few issues like that and might maybe even some textual perspectives and stuff like that but there are a lot of folks in the channel and we we can get along because we don't demand that folks be cookie cutter images of ourselves and anyone who thinks that I demand that of people just doesn't know me and Half the time when

38:57

I see people talking about me on the internet I wouldn't even recognize me if I didn't see my name there or a bad distorted picture posted or something like that but I appreciated the links that were there were provided there and and The work that he often does

39:12

I didn't even realize for example The man that I quoted last week was one of the ponderites until I saw that on his blog and so I have his blog in my in my

39:22

RSS readers and many other people in the in the channel as as well so I appreciate the fact that there are some folks there who in essence have my back shall we say and our real resources of information for me as well

39:36

So a shout out to all the channel rats and how often they are very very useful 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number

39:46

Let's finally get around to talking to James over in Glendale. Hi James I'm good

39:54

Hey, I was recently talking to a Catholic kind of acquaintance of mine and She mentioned that I guess she goes to a

40:02

Catholic school I'm not sure but she mentioned that her one of her professors said

40:07

That they had gotten rid of this was her quote that they had gotten rid of purgatory

40:13

And they kind of put me back. So I was wondering is there any validity to that? I mean, is there some kind of discussion going around about that?

40:20

That was the first I'd ever heard of it well, you know and unfortunately even Roman Catholics can be exceptionally ignorant of their own theology and My guess off the top of my head first of all

40:34

I've seen I've heard many many people say that about Vatican to Vatican to get rid of purgatory blah blah blah Which just is is ridiculously untrue

40:41

But my guess would be that this particular person might be talking about the recent

40:49

Discussion in in papal circles of the doctrine of limbo, which was never really it's not a dogma

40:56

It's not even really a doctrine and sadly some people might actually Know as little about their faith enough to confuse limbo and purgatory

41:05

Then again come to think of it how many Protestants could accurately define the difference between limbo and purgatory either? So that might be if she was thinking of something recently

41:15

That would be the only thing I could think of but the idea that purgatory has been done away with There's certainly nothing even slightly relevant to that in the actual

41:25

Magisterial statements of the Roman Catholic Church and that would be next to impossible to do

41:31

Just simply do the fact that it is so firmly ensconced I mean, there's there's more literal sections on indulgences in the universal

41:40

Catholic catechism than there are on justification. So You would have to get rid of a very wide swath of Catholic theology to to get rid of purgatory having said all of that the fact the matter is on a

41:54

Functional level and this is really the crisis of modern Roman Catholicism on a functional level in As close to Rome as northern

42:05

Italy certainly Europe as many portions of Europe Secularized Europe the

42:12

UK United States Western countries There has been such a secularization of the

42:19

Roman Catholic clergy and educational system That I would imagine you could find a very large percentage of Roman Catholic priests who while they in the presence of their bishop might affirm

42:36

The word purgatory in their pastoral duties their teaching And so on and so forth would so Turn it into an allegory and so Water it down that on a functional level the actual doctrine of purgatory would would be irrelevant any longer

42:58

This certainly is the case in Western Catholicism where you're hearing more and more people who are willing to say well

43:06

You know The church has never defined anything about the nature of the suffering the church never defined anything about the time the suffering so it might

43:12

Be instantaneous and it might just be you know boom you go through this and that's what perfects you before you enter into the presence of God and given that so many in the hierarchy of the

43:24

Roman Church today, especially in education are functional universalists anyway

43:30

Everybody's gonna get saved whether you're a Muslim or a Jehovah's Witness or whatever The whole idea of punishments and sufferings and things like that just very very distasteful to them and so on a functional level

43:46

You might very well find a large portion of Western Catholicism that just purgatory no longer has any real meaning to them

43:55

So that's the difference between Between dogma that still exists and cannot be erased from the the the record of history and the the functional proclamation of Of the church in various places in the world now certainly in Mexico You would you would find purgatory alive and well and a fear of purgatory and you'd have the old time preaching

44:22

Going on there and indulgences still exist the the Pope continues to give plenary indulgences from Rome and so it's it's truly a schizophrenic

44:32

Situation that you're facing when you look at at the modern Roman Catholic Church, and and it's it's teaching

44:40

All righty Thank you. Okay. Thanks a lot James. God bless. Bye. Bye eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and last program

44:48

I Said that very quickly didn't I yes, I did very very quickly At the last program

44:53

I started playing One of the phone calls that that's I was talking about the top of the hour that I'd queued up one of the phone calls from Catholic answers

45:04

James Swan is kind enough to I don't know why he does this it evidently is some sort of Disorder that he suffers from but he listens to Answers Yes, I've tried to do the same thing

45:20

And I'm just so glad that the Lord has either Laid upon this brother's heart or has inflicted this brother with this punishment wanted to I'm not sure which it is but So every once in a while, he'll come across these gems and fire him over to me and so he's doing half my

45:40

Preparation work for the for the dividing line. I am so thankful. I didn't another thanks here

45:46

I imagine this goes out to Micah who put the team of Paul again graphic back on the blog

45:52

Did did you do that? No, it was Micah Micah the debt. No, I in fact, I just thanked him for that I had just noticed that today just today.

46:00

I noticed it over the weekend. Well, I've been linking directly to the Yes pages, so I don't go to the huge blog

46:09

Just because some of us do appreciate the beauty of the entire website. But anyway We've got the we've got the images back

46:22

You know who we haven't heard from for a long time is angel I'm really bummed.

46:27

We have not heard from angel for long time. I've got to drop him a line and say dude Where'd you go? Shall I mean I have I have had some some debates that really

46:34

I mean we need another Achmed cartoon Another awkward cartoon.

46:41

Come on. I mean my goodness We got it we got a track angel down again

46:49

But anyway, I was so glad to see the graphic back on the on the blog and what role

46:55

I talking about Talk about skipping skipping directions or I'm sitting on blog Listening to Catholic answers.

47:03

Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm eventually gonna get around to it. Yes, but I forget what that had to do with the blog Oh, that's because James Swan is in the graphic.

47:12

There was the connection. See how my mind works. Sometimes He's in the graphic and the graphic is back and that's exciting. Anyway Hey, look after the past couple weeks.

47:22

I've had I You know not a day off. It's just like go go go go.

47:28

Go. I Need a day or two off someday. It would be good. So yeah turn to the fan and channel just said no

47:35

Muhammad cartoons Yeah Can you imagine that one isn't a sad thing that that's funny

47:46

It's a sad thing that that's funny. It is funny and it's because we all know how true it is

47:52

I think you know, I stole this from Michelle Malkin, but it's true. It's the religion for petrol outrage

47:58

We we are gonna walk around. We're gonna put a chip on our shoulder and dare you to knock it off. It's Please that we've

48:06

For the sake for the sake of the children stop Maybe that'll work.

48:11

It works in California ways. Okay, let's let's get to the Tim Staples call I was talking about before he had a caller asking about me.

48:20

I Played the first couple bit bits of this. Let's let's listen this call about yours truly

48:25

From from Catholic answers right here in San Diego. This is Liz. Hi Liz. Welcome to the program.

48:31

Hi. Hi Um, so Tim I've been looking on the internet for the last six months and I originally started looking on For debates between you and other like Protestant apologists, okay, and I keep seeing this

48:45

James white guy Yes I've come to notice. He's a lot of hatred towards the church

48:51

Especially people that defend the faith and I just and I know that you've had interaction with him. Yes, and I just What's the story with him and and is this a typical?

49:01

Position that evangelicals have towards Catholics. No, I I would not call

49:07

James white typical Thank you I would say this and yes I have debated him a couple of times formally as well as on a couple of times on Hank Hanegraaff's Bible Answer Man broadcast and I think

49:19

James I have respect for him in as much as he is a

49:25

Protestant and He is proud of it and he lives the word Protestant You know,

49:31

I wonder Does Tim Staples still call me an anti -catholic? He doesn't in this call.

49:39

I you know what if he would if he has actually made the decision and Has heard my pleas and the logic of my pleas that I am what

49:48

I am and to define me by him is pretty absurd I would have to give him kudos for that. He'd be one of the first people to actually, you know, yeah golf clap

49:56

Well the Masters this weekend so golf clap is protest right and who are they protesting against us?

50:02

Yeah, so in a certain sense. He is of the old -school Protestant school if you if you look at Martin Luther John Calvin if you look at you know, the

50:11

Westminster Confession the the Book of Concord, you know all the way back and even even some of the more recent

50:19

Protestants a few hundred years say Wesley You'll you'll find a lot of that it's so in one sense

50:26

He is Protestants have been historically opposed to the false teachings the Roman Catholic Church. What a concept.

50:32

Yes good I'm I guess I'm in line with that. Yes a throwback to the old throwback Protestant, you know venom toward Catholicism But I think it's rooted in his deep belief.

50:43

He is a five -point Calvinist hardcore Calvinist And he believes that the Catholic Church is teaching things that are contrary to the faith and leading people to hell

50:53

Yes, and that is one of the reasons why he is as passionate as he is now. Is he typical?

50:58

No, sadly He still has a lot of the misconceptions that have been

51:04

Done away with in the modern Protestant Catholic dialogue,

51:09

I'd love to get a list of those but we don't get a list of those we've come a long way

51:16

Understanding some of the venom venom of the past was rooted in things that that that were

51:23

Misunderstandings and that sounds to me like the Council Trent stuff, you know, Trent was sort of overreacting

51:29

I'm not sure how you infallibly overreact, but I have a feeling maybe this is talking about some of the ecumenical dialogues and blah blah

51:36

Blah going on the fact there were some misunderstandings on both sides that have been cleared up over the centuries

51:42

But we have a long value to go and so while I would say he is certainly not typical there is a he is not

51:50

You know a loner either there is a large number of evangelicals and a larger number of fundamentalists that will

51:57

Absolutely agree with him. And so we need to deal with those those issues that they continue to bring up All right.

52:05

Thank you. I just there's so much, you know, he doesn't seem to have too much love in his heart and I Didn't to me he

52:17

He's really doing a disservice, right? You know what live like I said last time, you know

52:23

And I can have some fun with this because you know people just love to I just love

52:28

I mean When was the last time you heard me? Sitting behind this microphone and talking about Someone I don't know someone whose works

52:36

I have not read someone whose debates I will not listen to or I will not listen to the full orbs

52:41

Range of their publications or teachings or anything else doing the psychoanalysis? You know

52:47

Carl Keating going. Well that Carl Keating just doesn't seem to have any love in his heart, you know

52:53

This is like I said last time this is post -modernism. This is post -modernism's poster child

52:59

Here is the let's not think about the arguments. Let's not think about the actual stated motivations

53:06

Let's just go to the emotions and go to how we feel and so on and so forth

53:12

Which of course can never leave you lead you to anything beyond do your emotions and how you feel a lot of people

53:20

Agree with you. In fact, I've talked to many Protestants who will agree with you, but at the same time

53:26

I Think we should respectfully respond to what is said.

53:31

I try as an apologist Not to respond to people's, you know emotional states or you know venom and whatnot

53:40

But simply let's take the arguments and let's break them down and respond to them and over the years

53:47

Liz We have seen as you know huge numbers of our

53:52

Protestant brothers and sisters convert Hundreds and hundreds of pastors, you know yada.

53:58

It's it's interesting to compare this with the discussions That you'll find in the news as the

54:04

Pope is coming today and the state of the church in the United States and The grave concern the part of many of the losses of the

54:13

Roman Catholic Church to various evangelical Denominations and I really think that you know,

54:20

I first started writing this into this back in the in the late 1980s you know this this constant drumbeat of the the convert the convert the convert thing and Man I'll tell you

54:32

You know just just recently much to my disgust Steve Ray was was beaten on that drum again and The the level of inaccuracy and and simple lies that these folks would but I'm not talking about Tim Staples here

54:47

I'm just talking about this genre of Trying to create an image in people's minds that doesn't really exist doesn't actually

54:58

Apply to reality, but it helps to keep people happy and to keep people from really considering The the major problems that exist the church, you know,

55:08

Tim Staples isn't doing that right here But he is part of it in the convert syndrome the convert syndrome as if somehow

55:14

That has something to do with anything I mean, you know what you hear this from all the time the

55:19

Muslims the Muslims are doing the exact same thing right now as well Converting and more and more coming all the time many of whom and myself included

55:28

Liz This is why I have a hard time You know, I can't condemn James White or Eric Svenson or anybody else because I was worse

55:35

You know I I mean the things that I used to say about the Catholic Church that I know came out of my own mouth now

55:42

I know it was rooted in ignorance, but I said it nonetheless. I think we could get an example of this

55:48

No Examples of this a lot of people would have put me in a category.

55:53

Oh, man. This guy is long gone He will never be Catholic and don't even pray for this guy.

55:59

Well, thanks be to God Somebody did because because I'm here Catholic, but you know at least this is the thing here at Catholic answers

56:08

We are here not to create heat, but we are here to shed light

56:13

And so let's take the issues and let's talk about them and I really hope that Tim Staples really believes what he said because we still keep trying to arrange some debates with Tim and We haven't been able to do that overly well, hey real quickly here because He has more access to the website than I do

56:35

We are going we are going to draw back the curtain and let you see the man Behind the curtain with the big voice.

56:42

I could actually just if I've gotten so Many compliments on the look of the website the graphics the stuff that I've every the stuff we've been putting up for the debates people say can

56:55

I steal that can I put that on my website and So now I would have a drumroll if I could find a drumroll quickly enough to put it up the man behind the graphics

57:03

Micah hi Micah Silence! Hey, why are you calling the last minute of the program?

57:17

Well, it was just interesting to hear this, you know the discussion about Catholic answers and then I was listening to the radio coming to work today and They had the forum program with Michael Krasny and I listened to NBR Anyway, there was they were talking about Pope Benedict come into come into the

57:32

States here and they had these two three people on who one was James Donohue president and professor of ethics at Theological Union Berkeley and Monsignor Harry Schlitt a moderator at the

57:44

Archdiocese of San Francisco and they were talking about how women they were having women priests and How they were embracing the liberation theology and all of this stuff and they were hoping that the

57:54

Pope would be all Interested in doing this and I'm just thinking how it was just laughing because I'm thinking

58:00

I was talking with some folks in a forum Recently about Sola Scriptura and they were freaking out about you know

58:05

I was Protestants and how we all have 40 ,000 denominations and all this and I'm thinking Yeah, it'd be great if we just called all of our denominations one church and just accepted everybody, right?

58:15

And it seems to me, you know The authority claims of Rome have no basis when this is what their leadership's saying

58:22

And anyway, the forum program you can go to kqed .org and listen to it if you're really interested

58:27

But it was pretty interesting to hear them, you know talk about yeah the reality of what the apologists say and What their leaders are saying at the same time are frequently very very very different and if we're aware of it

58:39

We will we will hear it. Hey, thanks a lot Micah. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye. All right Thanks for listening to the program today.

58:46

We will be Lord willing here on Thursday, but next Tuesday I will be in San Francisco for the debate on gay marriage and Lord willing get back by the next

58:56

Thursday in one piece to give a report on how that goes as well pray for us Thanks a lot.

59:01

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