Noah Wing: Three Books Every Young Man Should Read DMW#185

Exploring theology, doctrine, and all of the fascinating subjects in between, broadcasting

from an undisclosed location, Dead Men Walking starts now.

Well hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of Dead Men Walking podcast.

I'm your host Greg Moore.

Thanks for listening.

Thanks for sharing with a friend.

Got some interesting tweets earlier this week on the Maui fires and working through those

and might do an episode on it.

I don't know.

Haven't done a lot of news lately, probably in the last six or eight months.

Haven't done a current news edition, but we'll get to it.

We got a couple people coming up on the podcast too.

What is it, Anthony Oliver, his song that's out right now, what is it, Richmond, North of Richmond.

Yep, reached out to him and he's interested in coming on.

Owen Strand, who is a professor of theology, he's thinking about coming on.

We're working out the dates right now, so stay tuned.

We got more stuff coming for you.

As always, you can find us at dmwpodcast .com.

Check us out, you know, snarky shirts like this one here I'm wearing.

What is it, we don't say the f -word in our family.

Of course, it has a picture of Stephen Furtick, kind of an inside joke.

You got to know who he is if you see it on the shirt.

But look, I'm not gonna go on about all that shameless self -promotion.

We have someone in studio, my buddy Noah Wing.

Noah, how are you doing brother?

Doing very well, thank you for having me.

Yeah,.

Thanks for being here, man.

It's always fun when we get someone in studio because, I say we like I'm some kind of

mega corporation, when I get someone in studio, when the podcast gets someone in studio, because we always have

him having fun.

It goes a little longer than we expect, but I like it.

Now you are, I go to church with you, at Christ the Word.

You do.

You're one of the worship leaders here.

I am.

A very talented musician.

Thank you.

And leader, I would say.

Yeah.

I just, I'll tell you what, I love Silas, and I love the other guys, and Silas was over here last year at a reformation

party, leading worship.

Every time you're up on stage at Sunday, I go, all right, let's worship.

Okay.

All right, Noah's got the guitar.

I like it.

You know what I mean?

Good.

I led worship in my younger days, and I know how much goes into it.

So I also appreciate it.

Yeah.

People think, oh, he just gets up there.

He's a musician.

He plays a few songs.

I mean, there's a lot of prayer, and preparation, and kind of coming before the Lord, and going, okay, what am I doing

for the Lord's day on this day, and then practicing, and honing your skill, and all those things.

So I appreciate what you do.

Well, especially, I'm very grateful to Nathan, well, now our lead pastor.

Our lead pastor.

Former worship pastor for letting Calvin, me, Silas do it, because trying to take

over from what he's been doing is kind of most the stress, because he's done a very good job.

Because he's a phenomenal musician as well.

Yes, and he's been doing it since he was like 18, or younger.

Yeah, awesome.

So yeah, I didn't want to talk too much about that, but just kind of wanted to give the listeners an idea who we're talking

to.

They know I gravitate towards strange people, comics, musicians, and

politicians.

Like all the people that people go, yeah, they're just a little strange.

I'm like, yeah, I like sarcasm.

I'm a musician myself, and I'm in politics, and it's like, that's all the stuff that you're really not supposed to,

I don't know, they're just those three weird groups.

I love all three of those groups.

So you're in one of those groups where I go, I get it, man.

I play music, I write music.

You're a young guy doing that, so appreciate what you do.

But what we really wanted to talk about was you're also in a fourth category that I relate to,

as you can see behind us too, if you're watching.

I've got a lot of books.

You do.

I got a book obsession, and my wife has a book obsession, and I love her dearly, and we've been married

17 years.

But when you bring two book lovers together, you now have a house full of just

books, books and books, right?

I told my wife when we moved eight years ago, I said, why couldn't we get into like feather collecting or something lighter?

You know, I'm carrying these books out and setting up cabinets and shelves and all these things.

And I still love the physical book.

Now, I do a lot of audio, but do you do audio books?

I do.

Audio books for me are more things.

A lot of people take offense to this.

I like it.

I think anything relating to like economics or politics or even things like desiring

God, a book, maybe like a book of theology, that's more like here's some steps.

So I just listened to a book called Disciplines of a Godly Man by Arkent Hughes.

And an audio book, that's fine, but I kind of think of it as it cannot be literature

unless it's like a PG Woodhouse short story.

That's like the only thing.

Or history or anything like that.

It has to be something like, you've probably heard of George Gilder, guys like him who are kind of

more just like dealing with economic issues or cultural issues that I don't

really need to sit down.

Not that it wouldn't be worth my time, but I can listen to it at work.

So I've kind of found, I'm in that same vein because I think I know what you're saying and I don't want it to sound like I'm

dismissive of those subjects, but there's certain types of books where it's like, here's the 10 things

or these type of steps.

It's like, I'll listen to that.

But if it's, I don't know, Things We Confess by R .C. Sproul, I like want to hold

that in my hand and study it and look at it.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

If I'm like a Puritan or something like that, like Pilgrim's Progress needs to

be, I think needs to be read.

I mean, that's fictional, but I mean, Calvin's Institute.

So, I mean, you try to listen to that in an audio book, you're an idiot.

You try to read it and I still feel like an idiot third time through.

Yeah.

So things like that, I think deserve to sit down.

I had that with C .S. Lewis.

What's the, oh my gosh, why is it escaping my mind?

Christian.

Mary Christianity.

Yes.

Mary Christianity.

Thank you.

Jeez.

The only, the most famous book ever wrote.

And I remember I was in my like mid -twenties and I read it and then I got all the way done and I was like, I think I need to reread this.

Like there were so meaty.

I had to like, you know what I mean?

Go back through and kind of comprehend it.

I just can't do that with audio.

Here's a second question though.

That's totally off subject.

We'll get into the books here in a minute.

But if you listen to the audio book, now this is a big debate between my

wife and I, and I don't know if you've heard us talk about this on the podcast before, but if you listen to an audio book, can you

tell someone you've read the book?

Oh, okay.

So up until last week I said no, but here I'll explain.

Oh, wait, you had this huge book, this huge moment, well, momentous shift in the last week.

Well, it's, it's conditional, but it's, yeah.

So I used to say I had a friend, I have a friend who we were like doing a little group together where we were reading some like, we were

reading Pride and Prejudice together.

And he said, oh, he's reading it, but he was confessing.

He was just listening to it at work.

And I'm like, okay, well, that's, that doesn't count.

But then I recently just got invited to be a part of a group that some young men at the church do

together called Basic Training.

Because of the last year's group, their, one of the complaints was there's not enough homework.

So they're upping the book list.

And so because I'm, I'm going through actually a program right now, I'm going to be reading a lot.

I was like, yeah, I think audio.

Books are going to start counting as reading.

They start counting because of the 25 books a week I have to read or listen to.

So it's about volume.

So I always had the idea, and we won't spend too much time on this, but I've always had the idea that like I took the content

in, and my brain works kind of the same way where if I'm reading a book or listening to it, I'm getting the same imagery or kind of

processing it the same way.

I kind of felt comfortable saying I read that book.

And my wife years ago, early in our marriage, caught me telling someone that, you know, back when

I was on like iTunes University, which is showing my age, like when I first came out, and you could just listen to

lectures and books and stuff like that.

And she goes, you can't say you read that book.

You didn't read it.

We don't own it.

We don't have it.

So she's the purest.

I'm a little more in the gray area on it.

I feel a tinge of guilt when I say it.

And most of the time I'll follow it up with, well, I didn't read it.

I, you know, listen to it.

But at the same time, I don't know.

I think I'm leaning towards look it.

If you listen to it, you got the content, you read it.

Yeah.

Well, have you ever heard of the.

Stories or soul food podcast?

ND Wilson.

Oh, I have.

Yeah.

So they're, they're my wife listens to that.

Yeah.

It's very good.

But they're big.

Their big thing is they think of, well, they're talking about stories, but they think of like reading is like food.

So like, is this novel or is this book a steak dinner or is it a bag of Doritos?

That's kind of like, yeah, there's nothing wrong with hogging a bag of Doritos, but you just have to know what it is.

If you eat it every night, then that's a problem.

So I kind of think about it.

Like that's good.

Certain things don't need to be taken as seriously.

So that sounds bad.

That just eat.

No, no, no.

I know what you're.

Saying.

I like that because if I'm just listening to audio books strictly, I do feel like I'm losing out on

something or I'm not, I'm not getting the full meal.

Yeah.

Like if I don't have a book in my hand.

So you're right.

You can't eat Doritos, um, you know, three times a day, seven times a week.

Once in a while you got to open that book and have a steak.

Yeah, exactly.

So we're talking about books because we wanted to talk about books on this episode because we used to have a segment and I really need to get back

to, but it's just so time consuming to do a book on things that I've read and just give people, you know,

my pros, my cons, what I thought about it.

Not that I think people need to know what I think about a book, but just maybe there's books out there because this has happened to me

where you mentioned a book and I go, what?

I've never, where's that?

It's not on my radar at all.

Yeah.

And then you find it, you read it and you go, this is phenomenal.

Whereas it's been all my life.

I haven't, I read it, you know?

No, I appreciate that a lot.

Yeah.

So I thought maybe you could, because you're a big book guy, you're a big reader.

Maybe you could bring in some books and maybe give us three books that, you know, men should read or young

men, old men, married men, whatever, but just men should at least open up, take a look at and

read outside of the Bible, of course.

And you said, yeah, I got three books.

Yeah.

Which was a great answer.

Yeah.

You know, sometimes you talk to people who are coming on the podcast and you're like, well, I don't know, I'm not really sure.

And you're like, oh no, I get three.

Yeah.

You're like only three.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, should I bring 12?

Yeah.

The age group.

So you said, you said like something like younger men.

So my mind went to like 18 to 25.

So I know we didn't cover that.

So I picked kind of in that, I mean, the books I picked will, would apply to anybody,.

But.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, and the only reason I think that too is because I'm in this weird predicament to where over the last

year or two, I've really started to realize my age in the fact that

I'm going to Christ the word.

There are so many guys there that are probably under the age of 30.

Yeah.

And even a lot under the age of like 25.

Right.

And you'll realize this as you get older, you're much younger than me, but I'm 42.

And sometimes I wake up and it still feels like I'm 21.

Sometimes you wake up and you're like, oh, I'm 60.

Physically, I feel that way.

But in my mind, you're like, it doesn't feel that long ago that I was that age.

And then you talk to, go to dinner with some of these guys and you'll make like a reference or something.

And they're like, huh?

And I'm like, oh dude, I'm now the old guy making a reference that they don't get

from the late eighties.

They're like, oh, late eighties, you know, like, you know, like I wasn't born until 2002.

And you're like, what the, you know what I mean?

Like I was getting into all kinds of trouble in 2002 or whatever the year is, you know?

So my whole point is, is sometimes we tend to focus on where we are in life anyway.

And like, when I'm talking to people, I tend to focus on, oh, do you have kids?

Are you married?

Cause I have kids and I'm married, right?

And things like that.

And we, I touched on this with Craig a little bit in last week's episode to where he's even saying, I'm getting a

little older.

And then you start to reflect back and go, okay, and well now it's, you just can't, you just can't focus on wherever you are in

life.

You have to look at how can I minister to those older, those younger and those the same age as me too.

So I love the fact that you brought some stuff that's for a little bit younger generation.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Cause you're there, you're closer to that.

And then we have another guy like you that it's going, okay, this is something that can speak to that generation.

As much as it pains me to say that it's another generation.

I'm just kidding.

I love, you know, people go, oh, you got some gray in the beard.

I'm like, those are my wisdom whisks.

Like I accept them.

You know what I mean?

I earn these grays in my beard.

So I'm not saying anything about like I want to be young or anything, but it's just funny watching it as you, as I get older going, oh yeah.

Okay.

We have this next generation.

And then there's a mantle of making sure that they have good sound theology and good sound books

and discipline and all those things that maybe either I lacked or I learned from not having that

in life.

So I don't know, what do you think?

Should we crack open some books or like, or you can say something too.

I don't have to talk for them.

Sorry, I was rambling.

Well, yeah.

So reading is something I'm going to be doing a lot recently.

Cause I mean, you're aware of new St. Andrew's college, obviously.

So I'm actually going to be a part of their program.

So I have, they have a master's program that I'm going through.

That's remote.

So there's going to be a lot of reading going on.

So when you asked like what topic we should do, I was like, well, it's one thing I will be doing like all the time.

So what is it.

Not to get off subject, but this cause Ben Merkel has been on the podcast a few times.

Stuff when we talk, but what are they?

So like, what's that reading regimen like.

Masters?

That's awesome, dude.

They really like to read.

So the guy who likes to read, that means there's a lot of books involved.

Well, the nice thing is they treat it.

So it's an, it's an MFA program.

So that's creative writing.

So it's, it's creative, but whenever you're getting a creative writing degree somewhere else, that just kind of means you sit in a group of a

bunch of victims like you and you pour forth your political commentary and everyone's like, that's great.

And then you, you know, spend whatever ridiculous amount.

The thing there though, that's nice is along with the creative stuff, you're reading in certain classes,

like, I mean, 15 books.

I mean, it's, it's a lot and it's everything.

It's not just, there's a theology portion.

There's a, so the stuff I picked might be different than what you have.

Cause you have three, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So the stuff I picked is going to be somewhat, there's a few literary more like fiction related, but then one that's.

Like theology.

Oh, that's awesome, man.

Yeah.

So how'd you get hooked up with them?

Like,.

Did you just search them out or like, so they, so I've been following St. Andrew's college.

Yeah.

So I've been following my brother growing up really loved N .D. Wilson's books,

his fiction.

So maybe you're, I mean, yep.

Yeah.

I, because of that, I, I kind of followed a little bit of that.

I read a few like three, two of his books and they have had that podcast stories of soul food

for a while through that they were advertising this program.

And I was like, oh man, I was like in high school.

I was thinking about med school at the time and quickly realized I was not a science guy.

But at the time I remember, I was just like, man, that sounds awesome.

Like I, if I could do that maybe one day later for fun, maybe I'll do it.

But what ended up happening is I thought, yeah, I'm not gonna be able to do that though.

Cause I don't know how much money it is.

They're not a government school.

So it's, it's harder to pay, you know but what ended up happening is I was going to go to a UT program.

University of Toledo here.

Yeah.

Sorry.

University of Toledo.

Yeah.

So, which I just revealed somewhat your location.

Sorry about that.

Oh, it's so funny.

I always say it's undisclosed, but I talk about this location.

I was a realtor.

My address is everywhere.

I really got to change that.

Everyone knows where I am.

It's kind of, I mean, it's fun to lean into it.

Yeah.

The program I, I went, I got my degree through them.

And so the master's program would have been with the same professors.

So I had some relationships with them that were good, but I had one that was not great.

And she happened to be the head of the master's program.

So when I applied, they were not a huge fan of my writing sample.

And it's not because it was like heavily Christian.

I think I said the word Christian once.

But I actually ended up taking that, that essay and

I really liked it.

I gave it to a few people who edited it for me, helped me, a guy at our church who's been kind of

a mentor for me with writing and things, was really in full support of it.

So when he heard that they didn't let me in for a few reasons, but it was mostly because they were not a fan of the writing sample because they'd

gotten really woke.

Sure.

Yeah.

It used to be.

Like most universities.

But 10 years ago, they had some good program.

Yeah.

Stuff.

They had a lot of classics and there was still some like goofy stuff, like a postmodern reading of Beowulf.

Right.

When there's not even a single female character in Beowulf.

So I don't, that's not true.

There, there is, but.

No important ones.

Yeah.

No, I'm just kidding.

Yeah.

But stuff like that.

So because of that, I kind of thought, okay, maybe this is God showing, I mean, my wife said, Hey, maybe like you should apply to that

program you've always wanted to do.

So I ended up applying and they accepted me.

So I was like, well, praise God.

Yeah.

So I'm, I'm like so much more excited for this than going to some public place because they really take their

stuff seriously.

Oh, for sure.

Yeah.

It'll be really fun.

Wow.

That's crazy.

Isn't it funny how the, sometimes the things where we go, well, I would really like to do that, but it's, you know,

not the right thing is the thing that God has for you all along.

Yeah.

It's kind of the story of my life.

Like, oh, I'll never do that.

That's, you know, and then you end up doing it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, so you're creative, you're a writer, you're a reader.

So what do we got?

Let's, let's bust out some books.

Let's get into this.

Because I'm excited to, because I have no idea.

We have no idea what he brought.

I said, just bring some books and probably I've never even read them.

I don't know him.

Maybe just talk about him for a minute.

Most certainly heard of the first one.

Okay.

So, um, I couldn't find my,.

He's like the Bible, the Bible.

Oh, come on, man.

Yeah.

The Apocrypha.

Um, no.

Uh, so I, what if he just came out and you're like the book of Mormon?

We're like, what?

Wait a minute.

Whoa. Yeah.

Joseph Smith has some great things to say.

Yeah.

Those cold tablets, man.

Yeah.

We're talking to him.

Yeah.

So I, um, for one year after I graduated college, wasn't exactly sure what I wanted to do.

I needed a job.

Um, and this is before I got into this program.

I taught for a year at an Armenian like Baptist school down in like

Monclova, Ohio.

Um, and through teaching that they were desperate for an English teacher.

So I knew it was only going to be there for a year and they had so much freedom.

And I was like, this is going to be great because I have one year I can come in with all I want.

Right.

And they're like, they're looking at me like, that's great.

You have what you want to do.

So one of the books I read with my sophomore class was Robinson Crusoe.

Okay.

And I read that in high school and I liked it because it was like a good adventure story.

And it was like really boyish it's survival.

Yeah.

As I was reading it with these kids who are very, I mean, like you've talked about this on the podcast all the

time, very Armenian, very pre -mil.

Sure.

Um, rapture jokes every day, like, like out the wazoo corny.

Um, so I was very aware of that environment there.

So reading this book, it really struck me, um, as I was going through it with them, that it's

probably one of the most Calvinist books.

And it's, it's the first novel considered the first novel.

And it has shaped all, I mean, Western culture shaped American culture.

So Daniel Defoe was a Presbyterian dissenter.

Um, love it.

Yeah, exactly.

Um, and so it says the two Presbyterians on the podcast.

Yeah.

Okay.

One for our team.

Let's go.

Um, so he, because of that, he had a worldview obviously that influenced the book.

And so the, um, everyone knows Robinson Crusoe.

I don't need to explain like the general story.

If you've seen cast away, it was the cheap ripoff version.

Right.

Um, but the thing I forgot about when I read it when I was younger was the word Providence is probably used like

200 whatever times.

I mean, it's insane.

And the issues it deals with are super applicable to the point where I was getting in some weird positions with students

and they hated the book saying, ah, it's old, but then we would read some passages and it's like, okay, so what do you think of this problem

he's bringing up?

So an example is, um, if you've heard of the character Friday, yeah.

So Robinson Crusoe is on the Island and Friday's there.

And Friday calls him master.

Yeah.

Because, because Crusoe saves him from some cannibals.

And so there's that complicated, like racial thing going on.

And so I made the students do a debate.

Like it was that okay.

Or was that not, um, but what take to call him?

Yeah.

So, so I purposely picked the students who I knew would hate to defend it.

Right.

And that was a lot of fun.

Um, some of the students who I knew were not going to like that.

Um, and, and that was health, I think good for them.

Um, yeah.

So they made an argument about that, but one of the passages I, because I had a different copy, I brought the copy I had where I took all my

notes and cause I had to leave it at the school.

Um, there was a passage in there where Crusoe was thinking about Romans one.

Okay.

And he's thinking about why is it that God is only had the gospel reached certain places.

And he's on an Island with a bunch of cannibals.

Why have these cannibals not been saved?

And he starts questioning like, okay, this seems unjust.

Yeah.

You know, and he has that, but then questions.

Yeah.

So really big questions.

And, and so, because, you know, the greatest gift to mankind to a Arminian Baptist was free will not

Jesus Christ.

Um, they, they were like, well, it's because of free will.

I said, well, okay, well, um, why doesn't God save

them?

Like, and so they kept going back to the free will thing.

And so we read through, actually I did Romans nine, I'm a little bit, we read some passage from there.

Um, and I just wanted them, I wasn't going to say anything.

I was trying to be as respectful as possible, but they really had to wrestle with.

It.

And I was like, you need to think about this in a literary classic.

Like, yeah, exactly.

Not just the Bible, but like a fiction book.

Yeah.

It's bringing these things up in real life.

Yeah.

So we brought passages and looked at them with it, but I said, you have to, you have to think about this.

Like, and I want you to be honest what you don't like, you know?

Um, and so that was helpful because Crusoe realizes actually, you know, when I got off that ship that

crashed, instead of thinking, why is it that everything didn't come off the ship?

He thinks, man, it's crazy that I even came off the ship and that anything that came off to help me survive on.

The island even came off.

Yeah.

And so flipping your paradigm of thinking.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He flips.

It.

So there's just this gratitude and this worship and you get to see the, the relationship, um, between him

and Friday growing.

It's the most, I think it's the most Christian book I've read.

Um, and a long time, like that's fiction related.

And it just kind of caught me by surprise.

Like this book has shaped literature and it's like, it's the first novel and it's like a

reformed, um, and it's not, it's not steeped in theology, you know, it's just, it's just basically like

God saved me and like showing gratitude.

And so the book is not, I mean, it's old, you know, it's not like the most like

captivating, but it's captivating in.

Its adventure.

A boy is going to love it.

Oh, 100%.

Yeah.

Like the, yeah.

If you're a young man, like Swiss family, Robinson, Robinson Crusoe, like, um, dude, I was

like 10 years old and I was like Mark marking off like all the Hardy boys I had read.

Like, you know what I mean?

Like, yeah.

And that's, you know, that's showing my age too.

Like that was big back then, but like detective novels, like all those kind of, like you said, adventure.

And then the crazy thing is, I've always thought like, when is like, like Swiss family and

Robinson Crusoe.

I mean, are they, is the PC police ever going to catch up to them?

Because there's some stuff in there where it's like anything now, like if it's like, um, like male

dominated or any type of masculinity or any type of survival stuff to where there's a hierarchy of like

order, like it's all coming under attack and you're seeing these classics come under attack, you know?

And I just, I think myself like, man, that's going to be one that probably in a few years, someone's going to have some type

of problem with it because it is.

Well, that goes back to what we've talked about a long time on this podcast is we're like still living off the goodness of just

this country being based on a very Christian and moral principle to where we've coasted for a

long time.

We've had horrible preachers in the pulpit.

We've had horrible churches doing horrible things, but we're still the benefits of it.

That was a time where even literature was reflecting the common, the common

grace and common glory of God, even in literature.

And it was just like, oh yeah, that's just the culture, right?

Like you said, Providence mentioned 200 plus times.

Try finding a fiction book that's considered secular or mainstream that would have that type of language.

In there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So yeah.

And so for that reason, I'd say it's not necessarily like the sort of book.

I mean, it's the book I would like to give to my son when he's, you know, you know,

whatever.

I, and I think for a young man that I read it when I was younger.

And I don't fully, that stuff didn't fully connect with me.

And I think the reason why now that I think about it is because I was just young and young in my faith.

I don't think that stuff hit.

Whereas now I think being a little older, I probably read it when I was like 16.

So reading it later on was super helpful, making me think about, man, am

I grateful for like, am I thinking God every day for salvation?

Am I thinking God every day for just breath, you know, and you'll.

Get that a lot and a lot of good guys that we love to read.

I had a buddy tell me classics should be read at least once every 10 years throughout a man's life,

because a classic like that, you'll get a different perspective on it every single time you read it

to where you are in just life, maturity, wisdom.

You know what I mean?

Like life in general, like what's going on.

Like there's a different, and I think, you know, obviously the Bible is, is that times, you know,

infinity, but but classics like that should be revisited because like you said I,

you know, I read some Hemingway when I was, I don't know, 16, 17, when I was doing a

senior thesis and it did not hit the same as when I read it when I was 38, you know,

closer to his age when he decided I don't need to be on this earth anymore.

And you're like, oh yeah, I kind of get some of the struggles and some of the stuff now because I have a little more life experience.

So I think those classics should be visited, but yeah, that that's a book that I think you could give to a younger man,

teenager, you know, and, and they would get something out of it even in the first reading.

And there's plenty of, so the guy in our church, shout out to

Ryan Beckley, say that he's one of the teachers at our pastor's college at our church.

He, he always thought the book was also hilarious.

I never really understood fully why it was funny, but so you can take that as well.

There's parts in it that he thought were funny, but yeah.

Yeah, I could not recommend that.

One enough.

And we'll make sure we post these all up to you guys so you guys can check them out.

Next one, this is probably, this will change probably in my lifetime, but as of now,

Henry V, okay, by William Shakespeare.

And by the way, can I rant a little bit?

Absolutely.

Floor's yours.

I just can't stand in the reformed world, why there's this weird movement that William Shakespeare

did not write.

So you've, I don't know why, I won't list the guy's names.

We probably already know who they are, but different men, I don't know why, like in their lectures or in their books have like

said, William Shakespeare did not write his plays because he wasn't smart enough.

And I'm like, I don't understand.

Is that a thing?

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

No, because -.

I'm not that deep into that world to know that.

So there's people out there saying, oh, he didn't even write his own plays?

Well, they'll say, it probably wasn't him.

It probably was, I can't remember the one guy's name.

Francis Bacon is a guy they always throw out, but it's because he didn't have enough education.

So I think sometimes this classical Christian stuff can get a little too far and people are like, well, if you're not classically or you're not classically trained,

you can't do something.

Right.

But I think one of the things I love about Shakespeare is it's actually language of the people back then.

We just don't realize that.

And I don't need to go on more about that, but anyway, I believe William Shakespeare wrote it.

But Henry V is kind of like his King David play.

And that's what I love about it.

So there's a lot of famous speeches.

You've probably heard the Once More to the Breach speech.

It's very famous.

But it's just a helpful book.

I think it's his most Christian book.

And I don't know if William Shakespeare is a Christian.

I don't know.

But he was writing a Christian character.

So King Henry is going to fight.

There's actually been a recent, there's been a lot of different remakes and films.

Timothee Chalamet was just in a Netflix movie called The King.

Okay.

It was just called The King.

I haven't seen it, but I saw it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what's his, Tom Hiddleston also did a version a while back that was really good.

But it's basically just a young king just recently became king.

He's going to go lead England to fight France.

And it's been a while.

I don't remember the exact reason why.

But the reason why the book sticks so well is because it's all about him learning to lead.

And also about how does he lead his men who are older than him, more experienced than

him.

Yeah.

And also do so knowing that they're going to die because of him.

He's probably responsible for that.

And so there's one of the scenes that has always stuck with me is he, there's this part where he puts on a cloak when the army is camped

outside of wherever they're going to go fight the French.

And he puts on this cloak to disguise himself and goes around all the campfires and just starts talking to the men, trying to learn what are your

struggles?

And he tries to act like he's just another soldier.

And after he does that, he goes and he just prays like, God help me.

Yeah.

As I lead these.

And I'm paraphrasing that, but that always stuck with me.

Like, I was like, whoa, I've never even thought about leadership this way.

Taking that seriously where you're on your knees for battle and just his speeches before they go into battle are

just so like Shakespearean, but.

Yeah.

Kind of lead from behind instead of from in front.

Yeah.

Well, and yeah, that's the thing is he's just like, he's going to die first.

Like he's going out to.

And then at the end, the very end, there's a little love.

He has this like, everything in Shakespeare is on a stage.

So you can't, it's not like a normal story.

So everything has to happen in a short amount of time.

But he basically woos the French princess and they get

engaged like through that.

And that's also great.

Like men could learn a lot from, it's unrealistic because he like wins her over in one act.

But that always stuck with me as well.

Just the way he talks to her, the way he compliments her and like, he's also a man about it.

So that's, that's super vague.

I don't know how else to explain it.

Shakespeare is not the most approachable for people who aren't used to reading him.

But that book, it's probably my favorite book ever as of now.

Really?

Yeah, I would say so.

I need to return to it and spend some time, but it's the book I've returned to the most as of now.

That's going to change.

Like, because it was a book, it was the first book I read where when I was younger, I always was

like, I'm going to go into medicine.

I'm going to do what my dad did.

And I remember reading that in high school at like age 15 was just like, whoa, I didn't realize stories

could do this.

And so that, for that reason, I think it, even if there's probably problems in it, you know, that's why it

stuck with me so much.

So that's been kind of my, my, and I, I always give a copy to it.

If there's like a guy going to the pastor's college or a guy who I just think is really going to go somewhere.

And I'm not the, I'm not necessarily the perfect judge of that.

But if I really, basically, if I really think a young man in particular is really like, people will follow you.

I usually give them a copy of it.

And they're like, oh, that's weird.

You're like, read it.

But sometimes they Call me after.

We'll discuss it.

Sometimes they do.

But so that, that's kind of my baggage with that one.

Yeah.

It's crazy to me how you look at these classics and sometimes it's a little unfair because we say

classics and that's like the best of the best over the last five, 600 years, but

classic literature has these huge, like overarching themes and like undergirded with

principle and like great storytelling.

And then you look at some of the, just the, the Doritos, as you would say, right earlier,

that's out there to purchase now.

And people are reading men or women.

And you're just like, I believe me.

I know there's still some classics in the making now.

I'm not saying, you know, like as many traditionalists do, oh, we just got to get back to the good old days.

There's still some great classics out there.

And I think there's a people, a couple of people I've had on my podcast that I went, oh yeah, there are, there are generation of this

writer.

We just haven't realized it yet because sometimes you've got to let a hundred years pass before you're allowed to go, oh wow, that

we were in the presence of something special.

But the majority of it is even writing in general, I feel is like, I think it's like mimicking

culture in the sense that it's getting artificial.

It's getting one dimensional.

It's almost dying.

Like, like creatives in general are either being pigeonholed or just cast out altogether.

Oh yeah.

You know, and look at, I'm, I'm as conservative as politically as you want to get.

And we can talk up, you know, I can rally with the Fox news people and the Newsmax people.

Oh, liberal arts degrees are all junk and we need to get blue collar jobs.

I get that.

But in the same time though, I've seen so many churches and so many Christians just throw out art, throw

out, you know, writing, you know,

sculpture, painting, music.

And it's like, these things are there for us to glorify God in.

And, and it's so weird that then the secular culture has kind of mimicked their culture of

just, they don't really hold them in high esteem.

And it's like, what better time then for believers that who understand where art comes from, Christ,

right.

To then say, well, the art is ours and we're going to use it for the glory of God.

Have you seen as someone who's really in that realm, have you seen kind of the, I don't know,

just, it just feels like even from the creative writing side, it's become very one dimensional, not a whole

lot of depth out there to where when you get into those classes,.

You just go, oh my gosh, dude, this is unbelievable.

So I'll get back to the writing part, but if we want to just talk about art, for example, something I'm not

really as into.

But if you go to like the Washington DC national, I don't remember what's called national art gallery.

They have the traditional side and they have the modern art side.

You go to the modern art side and maybe you see like a Jackson Pollock.

Okay.

Jackson Pollock is kind of weird, but like I could, if I had a Jackson Pollock in my room or like in my house,

I would not be disappointed.

Like it's kind of cool.

But I can appreciate it.

But then the other things in there is like, there's just a dot on the ground and everyone can't step on

the dot or there's a pile of dirty laundry or there's a toilet and it says something

about society.

And then you go over to the traditional side and you're like, whoa, like there's a lot of

pagan things.

There's a lot of things we don't approve of in there, but at the same time, there's like, I mean, if we just talk about

some of the glory of, I mean, you don't want to overdo it with the Western culture thing where it's like

Western culture is everything.

But at the same time, like there is some truth to when Christianity comes into certain

countries, there is blessing and there's blessing that comes with its curses as well.

Like that's their sin and we're all evil and depraved.

But at the same time, like we have Handel's Messiah, like we have all these great things that Christian men have

done.

And I would say in the writing portion, it's really bad right now.

So I recently read some more modern stuff.

Maybe Cormac McCarthy recently just died.

So he's a pretty famous, if you've ever heard of No Country for Old Men, there's a movie.

He is kind of one of the few examples of a modern, like a postmodern writer who I thought was

excellent.

Not all of his content was excellent.

Did he write the novel that the movie was adapted from?

Yes.

I'm actually, I think the novel was actually intended to be, he wrote the screenplay

for the movie.

And the movies, most people would say like overshadows the book, but his other stuff.

Movie's awesome.

Yeah.

The movie is awesome.

No, it's very good.

So he, and that, if you've seen the movie, that just shows like his deconstruction

of like a traditional story is more interesting because he's acknowledging that there's such thing as a good traditional story.

Right.

You know what I mean?

Whereas some people, I was forced to read a book at UT.

Yeah.

So I hated this.

It was called Trumpet.

I don't remember the, there was some, I don't remember the author's name, but the author

starts out, we have a wife who's mourning the loss of her husband.

And it's kind of sad and it's kind of pulling you in.

Like she's recounting, he was a jazz musician, like a saxophone player.

And she's like recounting his life and she's going through how they met and everything.

And you kind of get pulled in.

It's like this weird sneaky thing.

And you probably already know where I'm going with this, maybe, but midway through the book, you find out,

man, this guy's like really awkward with her.

Like they're not like, he really likes her, but he's like super effeminate about it.

It's revealed.

It's not a man.

It's a woman.

So you feel super, but the thing is, is she cheats.

It's not, she portrays the character as if he's a man and it's not he, it's a she.

And that was something.

And then the rest of the book was just crap.

I mean, it was just like, the dialogue made no sense.

The story just kind of fell apart.

Like you just felt cheated.

Like that wasn't like a fun, like no country for old men thing where the protagonist dies partway through the story.

And you're like, Whoa, you know, I didn't expect that.

This is just like, no, you thought that's what I was doing.

And I'm going to, I'm going to pull that away from you.

Cause I hate you.

So even in that secular book and with the secular agenda, they were going to, they had to steal from

the created order of the beautiful story between a love of a man and a.

Woman.

Well, they made it seem like it was normal.

That's what I'm saying.

That's the thing.

That's.

Annoying.

But now that's why it's called trumpet.

It's like, Nope, sorry.

I'm a saxophone.

Well, sorry.

Actually I'm wrong.

He plays a trumpet.

That's why it's called trumpet.

Okay.

You said it's called trumpet.

And then he plays saxophone.

I'm like, Oh,.

That's the twist.

I got that mixed up.

Yeah.

Yeah, no, it's, he plays a trumpet.

That's right.

She, sorry.

Yeah.

That's, and that's another thing.

It twists it so much where you just, you just start getting confused.

So yeah, that one was the most egregious, but there are some good, like, um,

cause you should Giro.

Um, he has a famous book called the remains of the day.

Uh, he's still alive and it's excellent.

Like there's, there's definitely some stuff and he's not a Christian.

Um, but there are some things, it's not much though.

What's that?

I haven't heard the author or the book.

Um, he wrote a book called never let me go that won the Nobel, uh, prize in literature.

He's probably one of the few guys who deserved it.

So most people, you know, you just write something stupid and you know, it's all about meeting.

He is excellent.

So he's kind of similar to Cormac McCarthy where he understands what good writing or good story is.

Okay.

And he kind of riffs off of it.

So it's like jazz.

I mean, it's like he's taking something that's more traditional and he's just kind of playing around with it.

And that's not, this isn't really a novel, but it's, it's really close and you really care about the reader.

Like he, he cares about his point.

He really takes you seriously.

He's going to make you do the work.

And it's not, it's not just kind of like a, I don't know.

Um, there's just a lot of writers out there who just kind of like, I don't know, force feed you and they

think you're stupid.

I mean, if you're talking about movies, I mean the Marvel, Disney has been losing money because that's what they've been doing recently.

Um, and not even the moral side of it, just the story.

Like we, what, why are these characters on this adventure?

I don't know.

Like it's an action movie.

We're, we're, we're star Wars by it, you know?

Right.

So that, and, um, and people are.

Getting mad about it.

Well, even those type of movies to the ones that don't do well, don't have a stated story

of they're grounded in principles of good and evil and what the characters motivations

are.

Like anytime you start weaving like the woke stuff into it, it really dilutes a story and you just go,

it's not that I'm, you know, anti -woke and I am, but in art they're hat like, you

know, like the impressionist and, and like, you know, when we came into the enlightenment and stuff, we started to realize

like, Oh, all art has to be based in the beautifulness of Christ of God.

Yeah.

Like outside of that, the stories get kind of diluted and not interesting.

And you go, but this isn't even based in reality.

And it's because that's the reality in which we live.

This world is, is his creation.

You know what I mean?

And it's like, I don't know.

And then you see some of these movies and some of these books that come out and everyone heralds it as, Oh, the next

greatest thing.

And you go, Oh, they're just returning to the basic structure of what literature is of what storytelling is.

Not that I'm taking away from any of those guys that their, their talent, like, and I've never written a book and it's extremely hard.

I would imagine.

I'm just saying, you, you recognize it as beautiful because of the structure of what they're using and what they're

talking about.

And we're headed in a really weird place, I believe, in our culture where, you know, when you

take away Christ out of a culture, you're taking away beauty.

And we're going to get to a really ugly place to where even our art is just abysmal.

I think people, the world was made a certain way, you know, and so people are, whether they, so there's a weird

example.

There's a podcast out there I'd highly recommend.

If you've heard of Warhorn media, some Warhorn media, Tim Bailey's kind of involved with that.

They have some podcasts.

They have a podcast called The Bookening that's kind of not even really been doing anything recently, but they have a podcast called Sanity at

the Movies.

So they have a, they have a podcast called Sanity at the Movies where they kind of go through film and stuff.

And I remember that they have some really helpful reviews and they can be

hyper critical sometimes.

So most people get mad.

But they, I remember one time they made a point.

There was this movie that came out, I don't remember what it was called, about this transgender biker.

So some, some girl, you know, transition to be a guy.

And originally Scarlett Johansson was going to be cast.

But the, the LGBT, you know, Alphabet Soup, whatever, like group freaked out because they're.

Like, well, she's not actually.

Right.

Yeah, she's not in our community.

Yeah.

So, so she was mad.

Because she's like, ah, well, I can still, you know, I can still support you guys.

Well, she left and someone else came in who was actually.

And one of the things that they, they made the point of on that podcast was you understand, like, if you would put

Scarlett Johansson in there, you would have been making a lot of guys think maybe I'm not so opposed.

Right.

Because Scarlett.

Johansson is.

Right.

The sex symbol and all this stuff and beautiful.

And then you're portraying.

It.

And it's playing with some, it's playing with something.

If anything, we're actually in a time that's kind of like, at least they're just showing their teeth.

They're not even hiding it.

So.

Right.

And yeah, I mean, we could go into that, but a lot of times, like when you play with that, you mix the good and the bad.

Yeah.

The best lies have the most truth, that kind of thing.

Yeah.

Well, so that's my, so, so that's what I like about the pendulum swing.

Okay.

So your example right there, the pendulum for those guys for, for the crazy

woke alphabet soup, uber liberal, like anarchist, whatever,

every label you want to put on them, that pendulum has swung so far for them that they can't even

do what would be advantageous for their own cause because not only they're eating each other, but they

go, we don't want an a -list absolutely gorgeous by Hollywood standard, you know,

Scarlett Johansson in this movie.

You know, we want someone who looks like a rhinoceros with lipstick on that has no acting credentials to star in this

because they're one of ours.

Yeah.

Okay, cool.

You want seven people to go to the movie and no one here about your cause.

Great.

I look at that and sometimes I sit back and laugh.

I almost feel, uh, you know, I feel like maybe that's how Elisha felt a little bit when they were cutting themselves

and yelling to their gods, you know, like, well, maybe your God's on the toilet.

Like, Oh, go yell a little.

You cut yourself a little deeper.

Like, yeah, that's good.

There's such an insanity to, to being all in on that and such a narrow view of what they want

that they end up defeating their own purpose, which, you know, you know, proverb says a lot about that too.

And I think it's the providence of God and evil can't succeed in that.

And, you know, we can have all those discussions about people and all the world's so bad.

And what's it's like, in the backdrop of global history, I think we are in a time where it's trying,

but we've also had the spirit of murder alive and well for a long time murdering of, of children

on the altar children in the womb, like, like those, those things that sin doesn't change, you know,

which not to get into an eschatology talk, but that's why I'm probably a little more on mill with a, you know, or

maybe even a post mill, uh, leaning, leaning.

Yeah.

Uh, just because dude, this evilness has been around forever.

Now it's taken, it's taken the form, even in art and literature and what we're talking about tonight in this kind of woke liberalism where we're

destroying these beautiful things, these institutes that God has given us to take care of and glorify him with,

but it's when it comes to art, it's just so sad because it's like something I enjoy so much.

And it's such a beautiful reflection of God.

Like music, call it, you know, art, all these things like writing, uh, public speaking, like all these things that,

that take those, you know what I mean?

Uh, and we just, and we're just blowing it up and we're going, uh, you know, well, we'll, we'll just,

we'll let the secularists have it.

They, they kinda, they own it now.

What can we do?

We got little Nas X dressed as a devil.

I mean, what can we do?

Or whoever it was that was, I can't remember.

Yeah.

And he also put,.

I think like some of his blood and some sure blood.

It's like, yeah, what are you going to do?

It's we're just waiting for Christ to come back.

And it's like, no dude, like, um, look at the last 600 years of not even Western, but Eastern

like art.

Like it was the believers that pushed art forward.

It was, it was the Christ followers that, that, that elevated art to a certain level in

writing and in sculpture and painting and music and all those things, you know, I think it's time for us to,

I don't know, not be afraid to get them back.

Well, there's not be afraid to,.

There can almost be an overcorrection from Roman Catholicism.

So like, you know, oh, icons, you know, which I think we all would agree.

It's not okay to have a statue of Mary in your church, you know, but there can be a little bit of an overcorrection where

you think, you know, and I'm, you know, I think most people probably listen to your podcast are not comfortable with having

like a picture of Jesus in the sanctuary, you know, or some sort of image.

I'm certainly not.

Yeah, no.

I just don't want to form them in my own eyes.

Exactly.

Yeah.

But at the same time, like we talk about just like Christian life, like how should you be living?

You want to also realize that the way that the world is defining beauty is

not necessarily how scripture does, you know, and a lot of times beauty comes with children, you know,

just doing simple, normal things, and out of that produces, you know, good folk songs

from families gathering around, you know what I mean?

Like there's things like that, but no, we want to have an avant -garde, gay, you know,

only we understand this art, you know, and that's the problem.

It's not really.

Art for the people anymore either.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

Well, the, and we'll get to the final book here, but you just made me think of something too, like

everything that is secular or that is of this world or of our

own flesh is just an imitation of true beauty.

Yeah.

Of what, who Christ is, right?

And you find that even in our art too, to where it's the Doritos.

Yeah.

It fills me up for a minute.

It's not good for me.

And boy, is it going to have, if I eat this every day, am I going to have some long lasting medical effects from it to where,

you know, I'll put that up against, you know, a parade that celebrates equality for a day.

And there's all this insaneness of just being free.

And I'm using that when I say being free, I'm saying in the sinful way of just whatever feels good, do it.

I will put that up against sitting in my deer blind, watching the same two ravens

come back to the same tree for the last seven years and meeting each other and making that nest and knowing that

they're going into meetings and watching them for six hours while I'm waiting for a deer every single year and just go that

even that in the animal kingdom, that relationship of those two, cause they mate for life, but

coming together.

And I've watched that every year they've had, they've had, they've made it and they've had kids, you know, kids,

offspring every year.

And you go, that reflects the glory of God to me in a deeper sense.

And it's more fulfilling in my soul than anything of things that,

like I said, feel good, do it, like instant, you know what I mean?

I'm not putting it into the right words, but you understand what I'm saying to where there's like such a deeper, more beautiful

thing when the thing itself is reflecting Christ than when it's just reflecting an imitation,

you know, and we've gotten to that.

In the arts and literature and all that.

Well, and that's the, so there are some times I think when people will try to use art to

redeem the culture.

And I, I'm not saying that's impossible, but I think a lot of times what art does is it actually just reflects our culture.

You know what I mean?

Like Robinson Crusoe was reflecting a group of people at that time who really took the

providence of God seriously, Pilgrim's Progress, you know, things like that.

One of the, so that essay I actually wrote for UT had to do with this

idea.

So I did it on Frankenstein.

So Mary Shelley at the beginning of her book says basically, I'm paraphrasing, but anything I

say in this book does not reflect my worldview or does not reflect whatever.

So she's saying art is for art's sake is what she's basically saying.

And I go through and just say, that's ridiculous.

Especially when you look at her life and you look at the way it's reflecting the time.

So Frankenstein is an enlightenment.

I would have to recommend, there's a book called Monsters from the Id by E. Michael Jones

that is excellent.

That breaks down horror movies, Frankenstein, Dracula, all that stuff.

What is it?

Why is the horror genre around?

He really makes the statement and I kind of, I kind of take his point and run with it off of Mary

Shelley's preface to her book.

But he's saying, it's like James 115, when sin is fully grown, it brings forth death.

And so he's saying, you know, your art, like he's saying in Frankenstein, you know,

the monster is a result of that, you know, Victor and the story goes into sin, goes into a dark place.

And what comes out is his destruction.

He created it.

It kills everyone, including him.

And one of the things I wanted to address in that was just saying, you can't make this statement.

Oh, art is just for art's sake.

Yeah.

It reflects something about you.

And if you just make this statement, now this book I wrote that's talking about my life and how I rejected

God, and I embraced enlightenment thinking, that's really destructive.

Yeah, that's how the horror genre came about.

Yeah.

My wife read Frankenstein again from when she was younger, just on the beach,

not this year, but last year.

And she was like, oh my gosh, dude, this like, she was like starting to hate every ripoff

Frankenstein cartoon or like movie she'd seen.

She goes, this is like, this is deep rooted principles.

And even some biblical principles and the fact of like negative, like you do this, this will happen.

And she's like, every single Frankenstein ripoff you've seen is just some stupid, crazy, you know what I mean?

Like, oh, the monster just like, there's some really deep issues going on in this book.

Dracula too.

Yeah.

Like the classic Dracula, not the Disney version, not the Cartoon Network version, not like the thing you have on the

front of your, you know, cereal box or whatever.

Yeah, kid on Halloween.

Right.

Or the Halloween dress up, like the classic literature itself is dealing with these

really deep issues, whether they're secular or not, but they're also rooted in biblical truths, whether they're

positive or negative truths.

Right.

And like you said, the art is reflecting the culture of, of the time.

Yeah.

And we're in such a one dimensional culture.

Some of our art just sucks.

Yes.

It's rough, dude.

It's like, there's no depth to it.

And then as soon as we get some art that has some depth to it, everyone's like, oh, it's the greatest.

We worship it.

We worship it.

Like, um, you know, even like the Oliver Anthony guy, like I'm not throwing any shade at him or having him on.

He writes a song and I went, yeah, I get it.

Yeah.

That's a, that's, you know, not taking anything away from his artistic ability, but we're so hungry for

that.

Like, just give me something that has a modicum of truth and base in something deeper than an inch deep of water that goes down to the roots.

Yeah.

And everyone's like, oh, this is our anthem.

And it's like, no, it's, it's a good song.

I get it.

I understand what he's saying.

Um, and he's saying it with conviction because that's probably how he's really feeling.

But at the same time, it's like, we don't, then let's look to the class.

There's classics that have that.

And you have to nitpick, but you have to find the people that are writing that way and speaking that way in this culture today too.

Well, I would imagine,.

I don't know much about him.

I mean, I found out who he was a week ago, so I'll find out in two weeks.

I would imagine a guy who does that is not going to be like, he's not going to think, man, I wrote the greatest

song ever.

He's probably going to think I just wrote a good song for the right time, you know?

And he, he probably had no idea that everyone was going to love it, you know?

No.

And he said that.

Yeah.

So, but at the same time, I agree.

I, people are hungry for some of that, like Bob Dylan, Johnny Cash, raw.

Yeah.

Just, this is how I'm feeling and I'm not gonna, yeah.

Yeah.

But, um, the one thing I did take that, so that essay, have you ever heard of orthodoxy?

Sure.

Their magazine.

So they, they actually took it.

So it's on their website.

Oh, we'll link it up.

It's called.

Yeah.

Um, I'll send the link.

Yeah.

Send it to me so we can post it.

Yeah.

So he, um, they, they put that out and it's kind of interesting.

Some of the feedback I got, I think a lot of Catholics, um, were in that feed, but, uh, yeah, it

was weird.

All right.

So.

Let's put a book ends on this.

What's the third, third book, third book.

So we got Robin Crusoe.

What was the second one?

Uh, Henry the fifth, Henry the fifth, William Shakespeare.

Last one.

Okay.

So this is like more recent read.

These were ones from high school.

It's called, um, you've all heard of banner of truth.

Yeah.

Um, out in, uh, and, uh, Edinburgh, um,.

Ian banner truth publishing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Publishing company.

Yeah.

So you, I'm sure you got plenty.

Oh, that's crossway, but yeah.

I mean, Biki is banner truth.

He's been on the.

Podcast.

So, um, revival.

Yeah.

Ian.

So Ian Murray, um, wrote a, he's written many books, uh, written, uh, like Spurgeon

biographies, different things like that.

Um, his best work by far as revival and revivalism.

Um, the subtitle, um, the, uh, I don't remember what you call it when you have under the title, I guess it's, is

it the subtitle subtitle?

Is that what you call it?

Yeah.

So yeah.

The making and marring of American evangelicalism.

So the reason this book is really helpful.

So it, it, it starts with Edwards and Whitfield.

So it's about American church stuff.

And really the focus of it is on a man named Charles Finney, who most people have heard of.

Yeah.

Um, sadly Presbyterian who was not a Presbyterian.

No, um, we don't claim him.

No, we don't know.

Um, just like the Baptist don't claim Spurgeon.

Yeah.

You can have Finney.

We'll have Spurgeon.

So it really talks about, um, kind of like what Billy Graham ended up doing.

And Billy Graham, I don't really know what I think of him.

I'm sure he was a Christian.

I, but at the same time, he definitely took some notes from Finney.

So.

Sure.

It's towards the end of his life, especially yes.

Like the compromise with the Roman Catholics and kind of a one world religion type idea in the last 10 years.

But.

Yeah.

So, so this book is the reason it'd be helpful for a young man in particular is, um, when you go to different churches and you wonder

why are there all these differences?

Why are there altar calls at this church?

And at this church, they don't know how to sing, you know, like, you know, like there's no instruments here and you want to reading this

book is helpful.

Murray is a Presbyterian, um, very much so, but he does a very good job at

showing, funny enough, the Baptist and Presbyterians were pretty united early and were very Calvinist.

And then the Methodists were different, but even then the Methodists had very good things early on.

They fell off the deep end very quickly.

Um, so it starts with Wesley's.

I could go on, but it's, it's very helpful.

Just like talking about what's good, what's bad about American.

Church stuff.

Charles Finney, really bad.

Yeah.

Oh, he had some crazy stuff.

It's, it's crazy to me that people still extol some of the things he did, because

you look at some of the theological standpoints and just like, even within Christian orthodoxy, what he believed

towards later in his life, it was like, it's pretty nuts.

Yeah.

It's pretty nuts what he was doing.

And we could go look at, we could do all you come back and we'll talk about Finney for two hours, uh, one night, but, um,

people, it's crazy how you can be reduced to just a name and maybe like one sentence

attached to it as like a preacher, a theologian or scholar.

And then people just kind of repeat that.

And then once you dig into it, you go, oh my goodness, you know, which is part of my story

is I had, I always had kind of reform names thrown around and growing up in homeschool and

through church.

And then when I actually looked into him, I went, oh, that's, that's what they believe.

Yeah.

You know?

Um, so yeah, it is pretty crazy, but that's, uh, what, what are the, what were the years on that?

1758 to like 18?

1858.

Yeah.

1750 to 1858.

So, so that'd be like the end of Edwards.

So a pretty crazy, uh, time in American history too, in religious history

where stuff was just exploding.

Yeah, no.

And it talks about, you've probably.

Heard of a guy in Maine, uh, Henry Ward Beecher.

Sure.

So he's in here too.

It talks about him.

Uh, it doesn't go as much into his life, but yeah, it's some of it's like really like, oh, awful.

Some of it's also like, wow, I didn't realize the church was so unified.

Like,.

So there's a lot of good and bad.

Yeah.

I've always said like people who want to get into church history.

Yeah.

We love, we love the first and second century.

That's a very famous area.

But like, honestly, in American church history go from like 17 to 1900.

Yeah.

They're that 200 year period more things.

Well, I should say more, but a lot of things, uh, happened in that 200 year period to, to this day, churches are

holding too.

And if you ask the average churchgoer, why do you believe that?

I don't know.

Oh, it's because of, right.

And then, you know, 90 % of, uh, Pentecostals is Azusa street.

They don't even know their own history.

That's in the last hundred years or 125 years, you know, which is crazy.

Yeah.

Uh, which is really nuts that unfortunately a lot of, a lot of believers don't, don't really know their church history.

And that's not trying to sound elitist or kind of, but it's like, I didn't know anything until I read this book.

It was helpful.

So, so we got three good books.

Um, I was going to get into my three, but we've already went an hour.

We're going to save that for another time.

I'll tell you what, I'll give you the titles and you just tell me if you've heard of them or what you think of them.

Okay.

We're not going to get into, uh, uh, into a big review of them, but the one that I read years ago,

thoughts for young men by J .C. Ryle.

I love that book when I read that the first time.

Um, the, the other one's a newer one by Doug Wilson called how to exasperate your wife.

I've heard of it.

I've seen the cover.

It's got the guy in the underwear.

Yeah.

There you go.

There's the cover.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We'll put it up there.

Um, and that's just really chasing cause I'm a big Proverbs guys, Ecclesiastes, which we're doing Ecclesiastes in small group

this year.

Let's go.

One of my favorite books.

Um, you know, you know, I have a couple of glasses of wine and you know, you read an Ecclesiastes and go, you're right.

It's all pointless.

But, uh, a lot of wisdom in those books.

I love the wisdom books.

So that book is more about like, um, men understanding that wisdom is a sheet and to

chase their wife the same way.

And I thought it was a very good, I think Doug did a good job of like making a parallel there.

And then this one just came across my desk.

Um, I had read some stuff by him in blogs and then my mother got me this for my birthday this year,

Dan Phillips, God's wisdom in Proverbs and name.

Oh my gosh, dude.

And he's a solid dude.

I don't just jump into something and go, Oh, I like this guy in Dorsum.

I've been reading it, but really a breakdown of every single verse in Proverbs in its original

Hebrew, what it actually means.

Um, you know, I always had a problem with bring up a child in the way that he should go.

And from that way, he won't depart.

And you go, well, what the heck?

I taught a child and I taught him, you know, I, I, they gave their life to the Lord at seven and now they're a

drug addict and they're going to die in their own puke.

And like, what's that promise God.

And he is a very, you know, he even goes to that verse and my mother and I was discussing this

and, and just saying like, and if you read it in the LSB to the LSB expands on a little bit more, but it says it's not a

salvific or promise verse, bring up a child in the way that she goes.

It's like, if you raise a child in the way he naturally wants to go, which is the sinful depraved

way.

If you raise him that way later in life, he's not going to depart from that way.

So it's almost a negative promise.

Meaning if you allow the child and give him whatever his heart desires as a depraved, sinful child

growing up into his teens and his young adult, and I want this, and this makes me feel good.

And mommy, give me that.

And daddy bless me with this.

And you do it unbridled.

Then later in life, he's not going to depart from that way.

He's going to continue to want and want and want.

So the, the proverb there is saying, oh no, no, bring them up in a godly way, because if you give them the

way they naturally want to go, they're not going to depart from it.

And we know that all sin leads to death.

So he breaks down verse these real famous verses where we kind of, I call them Christianese.

We just say them, you know what I mean?

And then it's like, oh, and then we repeat it so much.

We, we don't even, oh, you're rotting your staff.

You comfort me.

Well, do you really know what that means?

Yeah.

There was a rod of correction.

There was a step, right?

Staff of harm.

Like let's, you know, so that book is, um, I think for young men,

even older men, any, any man, married, single, whatever, read that book too.

Uh, Dan Phillips, God's wisdom and Proverbs, because I'm a big Proverbs guy.

Anyway, there's 31 Proverbs, 31 days in a month.

Yeah.

Coincidence.

There are no coincidences.

God, that was his providence.

Get up every morning, read a proverb, uh, and then lead your home, lead your wife, lead your kids.

If you're not married, you don't have kids lead your life to though.

So then you can, uh, then find a wife and, um, fruitful multiply.

Yeah.

And then, uh, that's my pitch for my three.

What is, uh, Oh, cross politic.

They always end with the last one.

Oh, Oh, what does he say?

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Chocolate knocks baptize those babies, right?

Yeah.

Oh, I love it.

Uh, Noah, thanks so much for coming on the hour.

Just flew by.

Thank you.

I appreciate you bringing your wisdom and knowledge, uh, in, like I said, literature and writing.

Those are three good recommendations.

We'll make sure we link them up, but, um, I would hope this isn't your last time on here.

We'd love to have you back in any time.

Yeah.

Um, you know, like I said, talking to we, again, like I'm a corporation, I would love to have you back the podcast

in officium would love to have you back, but, um, I don't know.

You got any final words, parting thoughts before we get out of here, put you on the spot.

You know, we don't.

Rehearse here.

No, I read books.

That's my read.

Yeah.

That we have lost that ability today.

Oh,.

That's why I like it.

You want to, what I agree with him, read books, play music, learn something new, get into the arts, glorify

God guys.

As always, we appreciate you listening to another episode of the dead men walking podcast.

As always the chief end of man is to glorify God, enjoy him forever.

God bless.

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