Is Toxic Masculinity Based?

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01:26

Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

01:33

We are your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we seek to answer the age -old question, is toxic masculinity based?

01:41

So Tim, why don't you just kick us off by answering that question? Yeah, well,

01:48

I guess in order to try to answer a question like that, you have to define what based is, because this is an

01:55

Internet slang that probably most people are unfamiliar with. Yeah, full disclosure, by the way,

02:01

I had to have Tim explain to me what based was. I've seen it used, but I just didn't have a functioning understanding of what the word actually meant when people use it as slang.

02:13

I actually had no idea what the word meant either until I was following the Kyle Rittenhouse trial, and essentially one of the articles before the verdict came out was that the verdict in the trial was that Kyle Rittenhouse was based, and I told

02:27

Chad. So this definitely seems like a more scholarly or academic term, right?

02:37

That's right. I had to look it up. But essentially the idea of based, it used to be a term a rapper used, but then it's translated into kind of alt -right slang to essentially mean courageous or being oneself and not caring what others think about you, essentially.

02:55

So being authentic, not caring about what others think, and just kind of mixed with an element of courage.

03:01

That's basically what it means as far as that goes. So if you try to think about the broader question, though, is toxic masculinity based?

03:09

Well, I think masculinity itself is obviously under attack as a society right now.

03:17

So the idea of masculinity itself is being defined as toxic. So anything to do with real biblical masculinity or distorted masculinity is all being lumped under a broader category of essentially being toxic.

03:33

And so the answer to the question is that yes, I mean, there is a certain courage required to be masculine, period.

03:41

And all of masculinity is now being described as toxic. So we have to figure out how to navigate in that kind of framework, for sure.

03:51

Okay. So according to you, toxic masculinity is actually based. Now, when you're using that term, toxic masculinity, are you using it, what exactly are you meaning when you're saying toxic masculinity?

04:07

Well, yeah, I mean, I think the adjective toxic is an unfortunate adjective that's being put on the idea of masculinity.

04:14

I think that there's always been this category of biblical masculinity. So there's always been this idea of biblical masculinity as defined by the

04:24

Bible. And then there's been, you know, different cultures have described it in different ways, but, you know, the idea of the machismo or the macho man or something along those lines.

04:34

There's that distortion of masculinity, too. So everyone has been aware of there is such a thing as real masculinity.

04:42

And then there are distorted depictions of masculinity that can either be harmful or somewhat comical at times.

04:50

Right? So I'm sure you can think of examples of comical, over -exaggerated masculinity that's relatively harmless.

04:58

I don't know, like Ron Swanson or something like that. That kind of thing.

05:06

There's always been kind of comical, you know, exaggerated manliness or something.

05:14

But then there's also kind of like what might be described as – I mean, you could describe it as toxic masculinity, which would be masculinity that kind of becomes harmful.

05:23

But then I don't particularly like that as an adjective because I feel like we're living in a society right now that essentially has no place for suffering in relationships at all.

05:38

And so just conceptually try to imagine the idea of toxic femininity or something like that.

05:46

Well, there's clearly – femininity can become destructive in certain ways.

05:52

And so there is a legitimate concept of femininity. And then femininity can be exaggerated or distorted to where it's unpleasant to be around, to put it mildly.

06:04

Okay? But then no one would want to describe it as toxic, so toxic femininity, as if a person has some sort of moral obligation to remove themselves from a situation where femininity is being expressed in a harmful way or something like that.

06:21

Does that make sense? Yeah. So like the whole idea of toxic masculinity does kind of import into this conversation this moral imperative to essentially if your husband is treating you poorly, then you need to get out of there.

06:39

There's some moral mandate towards self -care and you must leave him because you don't deserve that and because fundamentally to be around him would be to poison you and that kind of thing, engage in self -harm.

06:52

And so I don't particularly like the category. But there's clearly what you might describe as biblical masculinity and then there's clearly what you might describe as kind of exaggerated masculinity.

07:04

And then there's sinful – what you might describe as sinful tendencies which are common poor responses to what might be described as masculinity too.

07:20

And so there's all sorts of categories that you could think through as it relates to that. Okay.

07:26

So when you're using the term toxic masculinity, for example like when we're answering the title question, essentially you're acknowledging that the term has a lot of overlap at this point with what we would just call biblical masculinity.

07:46

Is that right? Yeah. I mean we're living in a world right now that's trying to smash the patriarchy. Okay. So the world we live in defined like anything that is masculinity is going to be of necessity put in a category of toxic masculinity.

08:03

So there is no such thing as masculinity or femininity anymore because a larger project of egalitarianism and feminism is to basically take these words and empty them of meaning.

08:14

So whatever masculinity is, is by definition bad and toxic and must be avoided and fought at all cost if that makes sense.

08:23

So there is no – like masculinity by definition in our society is toxic. Meaning you have some moral imperative to flee from and fight.

08:34

So yes, but then that could include harmful expressions of masculinity, helpful expressions of masculinity, and exaggerated expressions of masculinity.

08:46

All of that is considered toxic by definition. So then yes, to be biblically masculine, that would be considered toxic masculinity and that would require courage.

08:59

But then there is harmful expressions of masculinity that are things that the

09:05

Christian should avoid personifying as far as that.

09:11

Okay. Why don't you maybe just take some time and explain to us then. Start off by maybe giving us a description of what biblical masculinity looks like and then after that we can talk about what are the exaggerations of it.

09:29

Well maybe, yeah, why don't we do that in the – why don't I just – in trying to answer what you're saying,

09:36

I think I'll just talk about what manliness is, period. Okay. As our culture defines it and then we can pick it apart.

09:46

Okay. Does that make sense? Yeah. So I did a very scientific study to try to figure out what manliness is.

09:55

I'm sure. By watching some YouTube videos on it. And YouTube is one of those things that is predominantly male and so if you want to get a good idea what manliness actually is, like the good, the bad, and the ugly, right?

10:09

Just watch a bunch of YouTube videos and you'll find out what manliness is. But then I watched some videos that were just out of curiosity, just to see how the pagans are mapping this kind of thing, right?

10:21

And so what do the pagans typically think of as manliness in general? And after watching a few videos, here's a short list

10:29

I came up with, okay? So what is manliness according to the world we live in?

10:35

Well, doing hard physical labor. What do you think? Do I think that's manly?

10:41

Yeah, yeah. You associate that with manliness? Yeah. Like cutting some wood? Yeah. I mean like Captain America ripping the wood with his bare hands.

10:51

That's got to be pretty masculine, right? Yeah, so far we're resonating.

10:58

Playing sports or games. So men typically, I mean you think about what men do. How do they spend their time?

11:03

They play sports. They play games, right? Much more than women do. So in both of those categories.

11:11

Eating meat. I mean, does anything say manliness more than a steak?

11:21

Most of the dry aged steak YouTube channels that I watch, they're all guys.

11:28

What do you associate with femininity more? Don't you associate vegetables? Like a salad?

11:34

Yeah. No, but think about this. What are the building blocks of muscle? Protein, right?

11:41

Right. Where do you get protein? Meat. Is it like a shock that that's connected with manliness?

11:48

Eating meat? I mean if you want to get a bunch of protein, how do you do it? Right? So some of these things are kind of funny.

11:56

So there's interest in debate in general. So men are much likely to engage in debate than women are likely to engage in debate.

12:05

Often, I mean if you think about gender stereotypes along those lines, women like to chit chat and men like to discuss.

12:10

That's just kind of the way things are. So taking responsibility in general is considered manly.

12:20

So getting up and going to work, working long hours, you just imagine the kind of guy.

12:27

Like this idea of taking responsibility, you just think about soldier kind of metaphors or analogies.

12:33

The bomb drops on the ground, a guy comes up and throws himself on it, right? Another Captain America reference.

12:42

The ultimate male, I guess. Yeah, the pinnacle. Yeah, I mean there's been plenty of times throughout history where extreme sacrifices are required.

12:53

Typically, it's been the men who step up and sacrifice their lives in order to accomplish the objectives, right?

13:00

So taking responsibility, honoring the wicker vessel. I mean we used to think that it was manly to kind of hold the door open for a woman, those kind of things.

13:09

Those are tied to traditional masculinity. Facial hair?

13:16

Is there anything that screams manliness more than the beard? That's definitely masculine. And I'm certainly not biased.

13:24

Pat yourself on the back. Now, typically with manliness, there is this idea of picking on someone weaker.

13:34

Okay. Kind of shifting gears here,

13:40

I guess. Hey, I'm giving you a list. I'm giving you a list of what I found on YouTube. You're right. Keep going. So the idea of picking on people.

13:47

Keep going. So I mean think about picking on someone, laughing at someone who's different, engaging. So that could either be verbal or physical.

13:54

That's typically things that are associated with women. More like mockery, open mockery or physically roughing someone up or something like that.

14:06

Typically that isn't so much the province of females as far as that goes.

14:14

They're more like the burn book type. Yeah, right, right, right. More passive aggressive in that way or subtle.

14:21

Distaste for sharing one's feelings. Okay. Now, there was a discussion a couple of friends of mine had.

14:28

They read a book that essentially said that men don't understand friendship because they defined friendship as essentially a friendship doesn't happen until you share one's feelings.

14:40

But then this isn't really the way manly friendships work. But men in general don't like to share one's feelings. And that would be a typical gender stereotype along those lines.

14:51

Whereas for women, you feel close once you share your feelings in that kind of way.

14:57

And typically with men, it's more like you feel close to people when you're engaged on a shared quest or mission or have something in common, common interests that you do together.

15:07

And so we're different along those lines. If you want to think about other things that are considered manliness, like lack of cleanliness, odors, being dirty or gross, right?

15:24

I mean, typically women don't throw themselves headlong into disgusting situations in the same kind of frequency as men, right?

15:30

Right. So then you have like strength also associated with manliness, like opening the pickle jar or something like that.

15:38

Sometimes insensitivity, I would say insensitivity is associated with manliness. And then often just kind of a concern for justice or fairness is associated with masculinity in that women typically,

15:51

I mean, women are more interested in how things make people feel than on whether or not it's right.

15:58

And if you want to understand what I mean, just like observe all the college football discussions about refs and that kind of thing.

16:08

So there is like in men, I've noticed this as I played board games with women over the years,

16:14

I'm much more interested in policing the rules than the vast majority of women are.

16:20

They can be somewhat subjectively applied, but every guy knows what

16:27

I'm talking about. But then humor, like just look at YouTube.

16:35

Like YouTube is like a monument to like how exaggerated or how important sense of humor is for men as far as that goes.

16:46

A lot of YouTube is just jokes and games, right? Right. And there's no shock that it's mostly men going to YouTube as far as that goes.

16:55

So those are just some things that I think, did you, do you see anything on there that you just wanted to object to when you thought it was crazy?

17:05

Is there anything that I think I want to object to? Yeah. I mean, on that list as what people typically associate with masculinity, is that, you see any problems?

17:17

I mean, I know, I know there's like a big, I don't know if this is necessarily the direction you're wanting me to go, but I know that there's like a big push to say, you know, men need to be able to share their feelings, right?

17:32

Sure. There's like a kind of a stigma against doing that. And I've seen plenty of, plenty of people, women and men who both, who both are arguing, hey, it should be a manly thing, you know, to share your feelings or whatever.

17:48

I don't know if that's the direction you're wanting to go. Well, yeah, no, I mean, I think a lot of those things are what we, I would say a lot of those things are what we would describe as typically what we associate with manliness, good or bad, right?

18:02

And then what's happening is a lot of these things are being picked at in certain ways and kind of across the board.

18:08

But then if we're going to answer, well, what is biblical manliness? We have to have some mechanism essentially to tell what about that's good and what about that's bad, right?

18:16

But then I would say that probably gets at what most people think of when they think of manliness in general, give or take, if that makes sense.

18:24

Yeah. Yeah. That list. Yeah. Yeah. So basically what you're wanting to happen then would be to talk about, well, what is biblical masculinity look like?

18:34

Right. Now that we have kind of the common stereotypes, right? Yeah. What off the list kind of falls in line with that, you know, what doesn't, you know, that kind of thing?

18:49

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think we'll, just to give you, I'll try to give a few examples of how this works, but, you know, masculinity is basically a set of attributes, behaviors, or roles that are associated with men.

19:05

And if you want to get a good idea of what masculinity actually is, biblically speaking, I mean, this is something that growing up I was really wrestling with because I saw all the traditional stereotypes that our society has, and everyone knows what they are.

19:22

And if you have eyes in your brain, you know, that list I just gave, you can look around and say, hey, that's how you're making these judgments, right?

19:30

Typically, give or take, that's how you understand these things. But then what was happening is

19:38

I'm living in a world that basically wants to attack everything on that list in a comprehensive way.

19:43

And then I'm saying, well, what does the Bible say about this? And I don't, I'm making it a little more complicated than what it actually was.

19:50

So at the moment the world's going on attack, it's just like, well, how do we define these things?

19:56

Right. And I think it's not really all that hard. I mean, you just have to think about the biblical roles that a man has given and try to think through,

20:05

I mean, so you think about passages that are directed towards men and then the roles that are directed towards men, and you can kind of put together a lot of this stuff in a pretty simple way.

20:15

So men typically are, so men are called to be protectors, providers, leaders.

20:21

Those are roles that men are typically given. So like being a protector, provider, a leader. Men are frequently told to be strong, to have courage.

20:32

And so there's these virtues that men are getting. So be strong, be courageous, act like men. So like the idea of courage and strength and fortitude, they're all tied together to masculinity.

20:42

But then one of the things you want to do is just kind of, just think through some of these roles in general that men are told to take on and then describe how, what that looks like biblically and how it can be distorted, if that makes sense.

20:56

So because men are strong, we're told to take on the role of being a protector in the Bible. So we're called to protect essentially.

21:05

Now, when you take that role, like you have a man who is physically stronger than women on average, and significantly so.

21:15

And despite all the Marvel movies to the contrary, actually significantly and scarily so.

21:22

So God's made men to be strong, and woman is the weaker vessel physically. But men are commanded to, we're basically taken on this role of protector.

21:31

But then with each one of these roles, you can think of it in terms of a virtue and a vice, okay?

21:37

So there's like virtues that are associated with protection, and then there's exaggerations or vices that are associated with it.

21:44

So like living in a fallen world, there's going to be sinners out there, and they're going to take that strength

21:49

God's given them and use it in inappropriate ways. So the virtue would be like, you're going to use your strength to protect women or to protect people who are weaker or to protect those around you.

22:04

So you can think about that role of protection. There's a virtue of protection, there's a virtue of sacrifice that's generally associated with manliness.

22:12

So like falling on the grenade, going and doing the hard thing, sacrificing your life for your country, you know, sacrifice.

22:19

Protection, that all goes along with being strength, with the idea of strength and courage, right?

22:27

Honoring the weaker vessel. You know, when you hold a door open for a woman, that would be related to this idea of protecting a woman.

22:35

She's a weaker vessel, you're showing her honor, you're showing her respect. Now, but then there's like a vice side of all those things, like picking on someone weaker.

22:45

So, you know, trying to figure out who's the alpha male, you know, sniffing out all the wimps, you know, kind of thing.

22:53

You know, when you sense weakness in a member, then mercilessly going after them.

23:00

So that can happen from men to men, like picking on someone weaker. It can happen from men to women in terms of just relationships to where you know you're physically stronger than them and you're going to use that strength to intimidate them.

23:13

So like this idea of protection, you know, you could think about it in terms of this vice on picking on someone.

23:22

So you're using your strength to, you know, bully or, and I hate that term, but pick on people, abuse them, everything else.

23:31

Okay. So like there's that idea of protection that's there. But then you think about like the idea of provider.

23:40

Well, you know, like what does it mean to be manly? It means hard physical labor.

23:45

We typically associate that with manliness because there's a lot of hard things that have to be done in the world. And so that's related to the idea of being a provider, but then the vice of that would be kind of the workaholic kind of thing, if that makes sense.

24:00

But then also like related to like just the idea of strength in general, we typically think like virtue is like with strength is hard physical labor, maybe even eating meat as a virtue.

24:15

I would say like with strength, you know, neutral would be kind of like sports and games like that's just kind of, it's not something you need to declare war on.

24:23

It's just a feature. Right. But then, I mean, you could say that like sports and games, like trains men to be strong and to fulfill their roles.

24:32

And I mean, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that there's a lot of people who make gods out of sports and who essentially overload it with spiritual significance, but then there is some value in, you know,

24:42

Paul says bodily exercises of some value. Right. So, you know, if you keep yourself somewhat physically fit, then, you know, if the zombie apocalypse comes, you'll be able to protect your wife.

24:51

Right. Yeah. I think it trains like, you know, leadership and, and, you know, a bunch of other things that aren't merely physical, you know.

25:01

Yeah. But I get the point. Yeah. Well, and vice is related to strength would be kind of being anti -intellectual.

25:08

So how often have you heard like the, and men can be profoundly anti -intellectual in a way that's almost disturbing.

25:16

One of the things that's sad is that, you know, we, we do a podcast like this and a lot of the questions we get are from women because men are just too lazy to engage their brains.

25:27

So men could be profoundly anti -intellectual and you all know the stereotype of like the hardworking guy, blue collar guy who just, you know, couldn't be bothered to read a book ever because that would be effeminate to him or something like that.

25:40

And so that strength, the idea of strength means that anything that, you know, doesn't require brute strength that might require strength of a different kind is off limits.

25:49

And so, you know, strength could be anti -intellect, like a vice to the virtue of strength could be anti -intellectual or insensitive, right?

25:57

Like, so someone who's just like, I mean, like there's a strength in having control of your emotions, right?

26:05

Right. That would be a virtue is what you might describe as temperance or fortitude, like controlling your emotions and not, you know, being paralyzed by fear, that kind of stuff.

26:18

Like those, there's a strength to that emotionally that a man should try to cultivate. But then when it becomes bad is that when it becomes callous and insensitive and hard and rigid and unyielding and rude, if that makes sense.

26:32

So, and then like, you know, think about like a role of being a leader. There's a virtue in like kind of, you can define like the interest in debate under a leadership kind of thing, because a leader is going to be someone who is passionate about the truth and justice and fairness and taking the initiative and wants to get to the truth, you know, through discussion and do the right thing, right?

26:55

And influence people in the world. So, there's virtues that related to that in communication and actions.

27:02

But then, you know, there are vices related to that too, like being stubborn, pigheaded, proud or domineering, okay?

27:10

And so, basically, just going through a list like that, I'm just trying to say that it seems like all these roles, protection, provider, leader, strength, courage, all these roles and attributes and characteristics, they can be exaggerated in one way and like in a negative way or be very positive things, if that makes sense.

27:31

Yeah. So, what you can't do is you can't just like in a categorical way, like if you, like the thing is if you reject masculinity, you lose all the virtues, because you're afraid of the vices, okay?

27:41

Right, you're throwing the baby out. Right, right. Okay. Yeah. But, I mean, we need them all and we need the virtues, like we desperately need the virtues.

27:51

Yes, like in a fallen world, like basically everyone is going to take the creational features

28:03

God has given you, like the traits that God has given you and distort them.

28:09

And so, you can make the same list for femininity too, related to feminine roles and there's good expressions of them and bad expressions of them and that's the way it works and that's what sin does.

28:20

It takes what's good and corrupts it. Okay, so you talked a lot about the various attributes or characteristics of someone who is what we would consider biblically masculine and then you did talk a little bit about ways in which that masculinity can be taken to a certain extreme that is no longer really in the realm of biblical masculinity.

28:50

It's kind of moved past biblical masculinity into a totally different realm and people have different terms for it,

28:59

I guess. I guess some people would call it toxic. I don't know what you specifically would want to call it, but could you just kind of maybe describe a little more of what that kind of unhelpful masculinity looks like and are there any examples in the real world that we can observe today that we can point to and say, hey look, biblical masculinity is a good thing, but then this form of masculinity is unhelpful, this right here.

29:30

Is there any way you can kind of explain that a little more for us? Yeah, I think the unhelpful masculinity would be a category, a perversion of masculinity could be a category.

29:42

So you could just think about biblical masculinity and then you could think about exaggerated masculinity, which may be more comedic at times.

29:53

But then if you talk about unhelpful or distorted masculinity, now unhelpful might be soft peddling it in a certain, but I might say destructive masculinity or harmful masculinity or sinful kind of masculinity, whatever you want to say.

30:13

I just don't really like the toxic part because of some of the baggage that comes with that.

30:19

But yeah, sure. So I think there's, as I've said, typically masculinity involves a set of attributes, behaviors, or roles associated with men.

30:29

And so there's the biblical roles of being the protector, the provider, the leader. You could also add different roles, like a husband's responsible to be a sanctifier of his home and his family.

30:40

So he's supposed to wash his wife with the water of the word. And you could also describe a biblical responsibility of being a lover if you remove kind of the sappy, sentimental baggage that might be associated with some of that.

30:56

But your husband should be loving his wife as Christ loves the church and gave himself up for her.

31:02

And so certainly there's some romance in there, but then it may not be all that is associated with romance today in the same kind of way.

31:15

But that's a subject for a different time. But there's these roles, you know, protection, provider, leader, sanctifier, lover.

31:22

And then there's attributes like strength and courage and fortitude and temperance and all that.

31:28

So if you're thinking about like the attributes, how they could be distorted, well, Aristotle has a discussion about virtues in that a virtue is typically the mean or the average between two extremes.

31:39

And so you could think about like an idea like courage. So what you want then is like with the idea of courage, if what he's saying is right, is that the idea of courage can be distorted in that an overabundance of courage might mean the guy who is charging the army with his sword, you know, by himself to where you might better describe that as being foolhardy.

32:04

And certainly, I mean, you can watch plenty of YouTube videos and see that guys are prone to, you know, an overabundance of courage at times with some of the things that they're doing like jumping over cars and that kind of thing.

32:18

So there is a foolhardiness, which would be an overabundance of courage. And then on the other end, there can be absence of courage, which would be like the just spineless jellyfish kind of man who's functionally dominated by fear.

32:35

So, but then when you think about like the distortion of masculinity, you would take you would go from courage to like the foolhardiness.

32:43

Once it transitions into foolhardiness, that would be the distortion. And that could be just the guy who's, you know, never met a business deal that he doesn't like and a risk that he doesn't want to take and gambling his family's inheritance away because he's, you know, throwing it away on a risky stock or, you know, actually little gambling, that kind of thing.

33:03

And so, you know, you have the idea of courage is the idea that we want to cultivate. We want as much courage as we can get.

33:10

But then once it turns into like unrealistic kind of courage or just distorted in that way, then we don't want that at all.

33:18

Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. So then, you know, something like so that would be related to courage, you know, and then with strength, you know,

33:27

God's given men strength to protect people. Right. And to provide. So the idea of strength is going to be should be manifested in protection and provision.

33:38

But then, you know, men could use pervert that kind of virtue and turn it into, you know, because I'm stronger,

33:48

I'm going to physically harm people who are weaker, pick on people who are weaker, harm my wife with my strength.

33:57

And so use it to prey upon people, to steal, to rob, you know, and that isn't like particularly that would be a distortion of masculinity as far as that's concerned.

34:06

But what you want is you want to retain the strength that's there to protect people and to be so and that strength being like actual physical strength and emotional strength and all of that.

34:16

Right. Those are good things. And that's what we need, those things. And so but then, you know, you think as you think through these things, each one of these roles and virtues can be distorted.

34:28

So the idea of a provider, what you want is you want men who take seriously their job to provide for a family.

34:35

But then there's a type of man who exclusively only sees that as his job and it's not balanced with the other roles.

34:42

And then, you know, essentially he's a workaholic. Right. And so you could say, well, is that manly?

34:48

Well, yeah, he takes seriously providing for his household. But then he's forgotten all the other ones like being a leader and, you know, protecting his family.

34:57

He's never there, you know. He doesn't know what's going on. Or being a spiritual leader in their house and all that.

35:03

And so I think what you want to do if you want to understand the subject is just try to think about what are the roles a man's called to and how can he either turn those roles on its head or exaggerate those to where they become destructive.

35:16

Does that make sense? Yeah. And I kind of like the distinction you're making more than what

35:22

I said earlier. The idea that it's like a destructive kind of masculinity.

35:31

And that really kind of leads me into another question that I wanted to ask you, which was basically, you know, so God's given us specific roles as men that we're meant to fill.

35:44

And you've described a lot of those for us, like an overview of what, you know, maybe it's not necessarily a totally exhaustive list.

35:53

Yeah, I don't know how to do that. Right, right. But then it's at least like a good kind of big picture.

35:58

Here's what God has designed men to be. And so the question that that kind of leads me to is basically, all right, so that's what

36:08

God's designed us to be. And so what exactly are the benefits that come from people who choose to, you know, fulfill that design to the best of their ability?

36:27

So not the destructive, but the person who reads the Bible, the guy who reads the Bible and says,

36:33

I want to be like what God is telling me he's designed me to be. What are the benefits on like a family level, a local community level, and nationwide when you have men who choose to live out biblical masculinity?

36:52

Yeah, I just, I think the more that people are aware of history, the more that they'll realize that there's always going to be evil men in the world.

37:02

Like that's just the reality of how the world works. And men are very keen at sensing weakness in other men.

37:13

And there's, you know, there are, like, so the thing is like men can be the world's greatest villains.

37:19

And typically speaking, the world's greatest villains have always been men, right? So that's the way it works.

37:25

I just read a history book, okay? But then men are also simultaneously the world's greatest heroes.

37:32

And that's the way it's always been. Because like, you know, that's the way God's designed it. God's designed men to be the ones who, like,

37:41

I mean, that's why you read through the Bible and you're going to see, you know, the frequent admonition to men is to be strong, to have courage, to act like men.

37:48

I mean, who, when the Israelites are going into the Promised Land, who fought the battles, right? It wasn't the women who fought the battles.

37:54

It was the men who fought the battles. Now, that's not to say that women play no part and they're not an integral part of society.

38:00

I'm just trying to say that, you know, I'm just trying to say that Spiderman's dad, or uncle, was on to something, right?

38:10

Google it. It becomes great responsibility. That's the way it works. That's the way life works. And so, men are made to be strong and you can either use that in a destructive way or you can use that in a helpful way.

38:20

And the thing is, when you emasculate men and you basically remove all of these traditional masculine traits from them and encourage them to have no control over their emotions, encourage them to essentially to be dominated by fear and worry and everything else,

38:38

I mean, you're setting a nation up and a society up to be conquered. That's what you're doing. And so, you're setting them up to be easy prey and there's a bunch of sinful men out there who will realize this is an easy picking, right?

38:51

And so, at a society level, you need strong men if you want your society to survive.

38:57

And when the men go weak, the society gets conquered. That's the way it's always been. We think we're in a civilized society right now and we've kind of cast off the old imperialism and everything else, but that can come back in a moment.

39:10

So, like at a societal level, you need strong men who are ready to be protectors and ready to be providers and ready to take initiative and able to face tough situations and able to do so without wavering.

39:25

I mean, there's plenty of historical examples of even just things like going through the

39:30

Great Depression and you'll realize that when the men were strong, when the men are strong and the men are stable and the men are not afraid, so goes the family and so goes the society and that's the way it works.

39:45

And so, I can just look at my own life and my own family and we've been through a lot of difficult times, but then

39:53

God, if I would have just crumbled and collapsed, everyone would have crumbled and collapsed, okay?

40:01

And I'm not patting myself on the back and saying, well, I just have enough courage to go through it, but God helps people to take on the roles that God's given them and if you don't resist that, you can face a lot of uncertainty if the man is strong and the man is stable and the man has courage and the man is ready to be in the role that he's in, but when he caves, everything goes, you know?

40:28

And one of the things, you can just look at our society right now and see our response to COVID and it's just insane,

40:34

Harrison. I mean, it's insane. We are living in a matriarchal society that's unable to mitigate even the smallest amount of risk.

40:41

We are unable to, we have literally locked everyone into houses for a year because we can't face a .01

40:51

% chance of death with exaggerated statistics and everything else.

40:56

It's just nuts and that's what happens when you prioritize some of the feminine impulses over the traditionally masculine impulses.

41:04

So, when you have a society that is dominated by feelings, like the prioritization of people's feelings over facts, those are traditionally feminine impulses and that's the way that they've always been.

41:17

And so, we're living in a society right now that prioritizes feelings over everything and so you can't criticize someone's feelings.

41:23

If they feel like they're a woman, then you must tell them they're a woman. That's the way it works. And so, when you lose this masculine ability to say, you need to conform your feelings to reality, right?

41:38

And that's totally a masculine impulse is to say that what matters is not how this makes you feel.

41:43

What matters is what's true in this scenario. When you lose those kind of traditional masculine traits or strengths, then what happens is society crumbles under itself and then you're left with a bunch of contradictory mess.

41:59

And so, that's the way it happens, I think, at a societal level.

42:05

I mean, when you're talking about in a family, those same kind of dynamics are at work within a family.

42:11

God's designed men to be strong. God's designed men to be leaders. God's designed men to take initiative. And God's uniquely equipped men to be strong, to take initiative, to be leaders.

42:20

And when we abdicate that, then what we end up with is a bunch of stressed out, unhappy wives and a bunch of marriages where the man is essentially emasculated in the eyes of the woman and then both people are frustrated and none of it works.

42:35

So, I don't know. There's a lot that can be said about that, but we are living in a society right now that desperately needs men to be strong again and courageous.

42:46

Yeah, and that's not even really to mention all of the – it doesn't even really – there's not enough time to even touch on all of the other implications that I think probably come from encouraging men to be effeminate over masculine, especially when it comes to raising the next generation.

43:11

Well, even theologically speaking, Harrison, I mean, it's one of those things which – I know you're not allowed to say because it's considered like a ghastly heresy, but I mean, women are typically more prone to theological heresy than men.

43:25

And part of that's just because women can be more naive than men are at times and can think more with their emotions than men can because they're more prone to be nurturing.

43:35

And so, I mean, you look around the world and like a lot of the crazy stuff that's being introduced into the evangelical world right now is being introduced by women, okay?

43:48

And I know you're not allowed to notice it, but that's the way it is. And that's part of the reason why

43:53

God's designed men to be teachers and God's designed men to be elders of the church. And so, the more that we're promoting all these expository female ministries within the church, strange things can happen.

44:08

And so, I don't know. You're not allowed to say it, but it's absolutely true.

44:13

Yeah, and that kind of – that's like a really good segue into another question, which is, you know, this is not really something that I guess – you always hear, certainly you always hear that, you know, like the

44:33

Father's Day sermons where the pastor is basically going to tell all the men in the room, you know, focused on the

44:44

Father specifically, hey, it's time to, you know, buckle down basically and we need to start taking our job seriously, implying that we haven't been right.

44:54

And you compare that to, you know, like a Mother's Day sermon where it's typically like fully praising the mother, which

45:06

I don't think is inherently wrong in any – I think it's a good thing to praise the mother, but it is interesting to see that different dynamic.

45:13

So, there is certainly an aspect of the evangelical church that is trying to say, hey, men in some way need to be masculine, but then functionally, it doesn't really seem like maybe we really mean it all that much.

45:31

Is that kind of – is that your perception as well as it pertains to the church specifically and the leaders within churches?

45:39

Yeah, I think we're sending mixed signals as it relates to masculinity, and I mean, I don't resent the fact that, you know, the standard

45:48

Father's Day sermon is going to bash men. I think we deserve it, you know, as far as that goes.

45:56

But then what happens is it's like – what's happening is that those Father's Day sermons are totally disconnected from everything else that's happening.

46:06

And so, the standard church service in every conceivable way is just undermining masculinity at every single conceivable level.

46:15

And then when you – like, what's happening is, like, basically, we've adopted all the – like, the symbol – we basically adopted the feminist egalitarian framework as it relates to – here's what happened.

46:29

We've gone to war against all these gender stereotypes in a fairly comprehensive way as a church.

46:35

But then once we get to these, you know, Father's Day sermon, we're preaching the passage, which is talking about things that we've undermined the whole rest of the time, right?

46:44

So, like, we've undermined everything we're talking about at that point, and so then, fundamentally, I think you're sending mixed messages with the men.

46:53

And then when it comes to, like, the ladies' sermons, then one of the things that's happened is, like, we are living in a church right now that has no category for ever rebuking a woman or blaming her for anything.

47:07

So, like, that's the way it works. I mean, the woman always has to be praised, almost at every single point.

47:14

And, you know, when you get to all the – I've just never heard –

47:19

I've heard very few sermons. I don't want to say never, but very, very few sermons on, like, anything about a biblical role of women where the pastor is not just apologizing the whole time and the nervous laughter and the chuckling and the, you know, like,

47:36

I'm sorry, you know, I didn't make it up, but God did, you know, kind of thing, and just as sad about it as he wishes he would have to do it, you know, kind of thing.

47:47

But, so, I think what needs to happen is that we need to – there's obviously an imbalance there, where we beat up on the men and then we praise the women.

47:56

And then part of the problem is that, like, ladies have – typically younger ladies are not living up to the reputation that their grandmothers earned, okay?

48:05

And so, part of what's happened with that is that you essentially have, like, the job of a homemaker and all that was a lot harder than it is now once you add to it, you know, all the appliances, like dishwashers and laundry machines and everything else.

48:23

It used to be a lot harder. And, like – Yeah, you don't have to go down to the river anymore to wash everything.

48:30

Yeah, beat your rug with a stick, you know. Staying away from the crocodiles or whatever.

48:36

But, no, I mean, it's just gotten a lot easier and, like, homemaking doesn't take as much time now, but then now that it doesn't take as much time, like, a lot of young homemakers are a lot lazier, but then they'll still – like, we still praise all women indiscriminately because that's what we have to do.

48:51

And then what's happening is then, like, we're excusing a vast amount of laziness on women's end.

48:58

But I don't – what I would like to happen is just that we're harder on the men and we're harder on the women, okay?

49:07

So, we need to do both. I mean, because, like, your standard – the problem is your standard male today is being trained to be a female and has –

49:15

I mean, essentially does have the emotional control of a five -year -old girl and that's the way it works. And so when the difficult situation happens, he curls up on the floor and lays, you know, is unable to move and, you know, basically sucking his patsy fingers on the ground.

49:29

So, like, we need men to man up. We need men to be strong. We need men to quit being so afraid of their wives that they, you know, refuse to rebuke them or, you know, stand firm or – and that's what's happening is you have a lot of easily manipulated men who basically think of what it means to love a woman is essentially to give her whatever she wants and to validate all her feelings.

49:52

And essentially, you know, be a voice of affirmation for her.

49:57

And so, yeah, I think, like – so, yeah, I think the church is traditionally they – we do rebuke men during those

50:06

Father's Day sermons. But everything else that we're doing, we're encouraging effeminacy across the board in every conceivable way.

50:12

And with every – with all the activities we do as a church, we're encouraging effeminacy. Like, we basically, you know, tried to destroy masculinity and then we tell them, hey, you guys need to be more manly, you know, one day out of the year after we've undermined it.

50:26

So, it's a mess. So, why exactly is it that – it seems like, you know, there's verse –

50:35

I mean, there's verses in the Bible that talk about, you know, I think Paul says it a few different times in a few different letters, you know, condemning effeminate men, right?

50:49

But then, in my experience, I can't really think of – yeah, I don't want to say

50:54

I've never heard this because there's some really faithful and prominent pastors out there that I think

51:00

I have heard talk about this. But, you know, across the board generally, I don't feel like I really hear that ever talked about much, like a condemning of the temptation to be effeminate as a man, right?

51:19

Which is obviously predominant in our society. You've said it's predominant even in our churches. So, why is it that people are avoiding this so much when it is just a clear –

51:29

I mean, if we're, you know, if we're willing to talk about all of these other sins, you know, we're willing to talk about murder, lying, stealing, you know.

51:40

Some people are still willing to talk about homosexuality, you know. Why aren't people willing to talk about effeminacy?

51:50

Well, because the idea of masculinity and femininity has been so under attack by our society that essentially these are words that have no meaning anymore, okay?

52:07

So, and part of why that's happened is because we've declared war on all the stereotypes. So, all the traditional gender stereotypes, you know, boys like blue, women like pink, boys like cars, and women like dolls, you know.

52:22

So, one of the things that we've done is there's been – like our society is essentially – and this is what – so, feminism, the idea of feminism is essentially the idea of destroying all gender stereotypes.

52:36

And one of the reasons why, like, we're so – like, you can't even – like, we don't even have – we're living in a society that doesn't know what a generalization is anymore.

52:47

So, like, we've gone to war against generalizations or stereotypes.

52:53

And so, I mean, I can't tell you how many conversations I've had where I make a generalization and someone looks at me and says, like, that's a generalization.

53:02

Like, as if that's like a curse word or something. It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a – do you know what a generalization is?

53:09

Right. A generalization is a statement of general truth. It's like, yes, it's a statement of general truth.

53:16

You know, and then they'll point to the exception to disprove the rule and it's like, this is a statement of general truth. There are exceptions.

53:22

But, I mean, like, you think about that. Like, there's all these gender stereotypes that were instructive in teaching us about our roles.

53:28

Like, boys like blue and women like pink and boys like cars and, you know, action figures and women like dolls and, you know.

53:38

So, what's happened is feminism has basically gone to war against all these things and basically considered all these stereotypes to be social constructs that virtually have no meaning.

53:48

And then – but no matter how hard they try, you know, girls still like pink and boys – most boys don't, okay?

53:56

So, like, no matter how hard they try, you know, the girl's going to gravitate towards the doll, you know, gasp, you know, and then the boy is going to like the cars and the trucks and the loud things and the, you know, the action figures and that's kind of the way it works.

54:08

You know, there are obviously exceptions. But here's the thing. So, feminism has gone on attack at that very point with all the stereotypes are gone.

54:16

But then, like, transgenderism is a strange thing because transgenderism is essentially, like, you know, if Bruce Jenner wants to become a woman, what does he do?

54:29

Like, well, like, how does he even identify that he's a woman on the inside? Well, how he identifies he's a woman on the inside is he reclaims all those old female stereotypes, right?

54:39

And he transitions into some gaudy pinup model, right? Like, ugly mannish pinup model, right?

54:46

Like, and basically what he did was he took all the gender stereotypes that the feminists destroyed and says that that's how he's identifying himself as a female.

54:54

And so you're, and that's why the feminists are mad at the transgenders because the two worldviews can't work. But then what's happened in the church is essentially we've gone to war against all these stereotypes.

55:03

We've gone to war against all these, like, against the idea of masculinity and femininity.

55:09

But then what's happened is the church is basically just, they don't know what a generalization is anymore, or they don't know how stereotypes are supposed to work anymore.

55:20

And so now what's happened is basically we're in this situation where no one really even knows how to define masculinity or femininity at all.

55:28

And this is something that Matt Walsh will frequently do, and I listen to him from time to time.

55:35

Yeah, I have a low tolerance for him, but I do listen to him. But he'll frequently ask the feminist and the transgender folks, well, define a woman for me.

55:46

And literally no one can answer the question, and it's been a running joke he's had for a while. Like, their answer is a woman is like a person who identifies as a woman, you know?

55:55

But you understand that that has no meaning. It has no content anymore. So the idea of, like, the thing is the idea of manliness and femininity, it has no, like, they're empty terms.

56:05

They have no meaning. So at that point, we, like, the church doesn't know, we've so bought into all these lies, we've rejected all the stereotypes, we have nothing left, right?

56:16

So, like, basically what's happened is it's just like, okay, well, you know, stereotypical masculinity involves playing sports.

56:23

It's like, well, yeah, I know a guy who doesn't really like sports. He likes to write poems, you know? Well, I guess I don't know what masculinity is anymore, you know?

56:31

And so what we've done is we've checked all the stereotypes. Like, we've checked all the generalizations, and we're left with nothing.

56:38

We're left with empty sets. We don't have anything to put in them. So then you're not going to have someone criticize effeminacy because there's no content to the words.

56:47

Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. The words are absolutely meaningless. They mean nothing. We don't even know what they mean, you know?

56:53

So, and that's where, you know, someone like Jordan Peterson can come along and, you know, tell men to stand up straight with their shoulders back.

57:01

And it's just like, you have a generation of men who've been trained to be women who realize, like, they discover some new, deep, profound truth.

57:09

And it's just like, no, he's just telling you the gender stereotypes we've tossed. But then if you do that, you'll actually get ahead in the world, you know?

57:16

Yeah, and it kind of seems to, you know, when you think about these secular guys who are actually calling, you know, like, what was that?

57:29

Matt Walsh. He's one of these guys that I think of who is willing to confront these different ideologies, especially like the transgender, the same -sex attraction stuff.

57:46

They're willing to confront these things in a really forceful way, right?

57:53

But then that's kind of what it takes a lot of times to demonstrate how foolish it all is.

58:00

And I've seen plenty of pastors who often wonder out loud, why do so many of my church members listen to these guys?

58:08

I wish they would listen to me the way that they listen to these guys. And a lot of times the pushback when they're wondering that out loud on Twitter or on Facebook or wherever they are is, well, hey, maybe if you were confronting a lot of these things like they were, they would actually want to take you a lot more seriously because they're actually looking at the

58:31

Bible and saying, it seems like what the world is pushing does not align with what

58:39

Scripture says, but then I never, and all these secular guys are talking about it, it seems like they're being confrontational.

58:46

They're calling out things that are false teaching, even though they don't necessarily, they don't have the

58:53

Holy Spirit that's giving them a real biblical understanding, but they do at least have enough of a conscience to realize that everything that's being pushed goes against creation.

59:05

But then it seems like pastors, in a lot of ways, because they've kind of had it ingrained in their mind, the 11th commandment, thou shalt be nice, you're not allowed to even really confront these things, you'll be too mean.

59:21

But then you read the Bible, you go and read Paul, go and read Jesus, go and read the prophets, and they say things that are obviously confrontational.

59:34

And honestly, if you could just wipe people's minds, wipe their memories, so that they didn't know that these guys in the

59:42

Bible said all these things, and then you just showed them the quotes. Things that they're saying, yeah.

59:48

Right. I guarantee you, most pastors would probably say, this guy is not fit for ministry, or he needs to be at least reprimanded in some way.

59:59

And so it seems like a big consequence of not encouraging a biblical kind of masculinity.

01:00:07

And I don't know that I necessarily agree with, obviously, the pagan guys who are confronting all this stuff.

01:00:14

I don't always agree with everything they do, but I do at least admire the fact that they're willing to be courageous about it, and they're willing to put their reputation on the line.

01:00:27

What's happening is it's like nature abhors a vacuum, essentially. So this is the same thing that happens when the nice guy tries to get the girl, and the way he tries to get the girl is just to basically go up to her, and just be nice to her, and just always try to figure out what she wants to do, and do it.

01:00:49

And that kind of guy appears to the standard girl to be weak, right? And then she'll go out, and she'll marry the bad boy, or something like that, or date the bad boy.

01:01:01

And the nice guy is just totally baffled by what's happening. It's just like, I'm good to you.

01:01:08

I listen to you. I share my feelings with you, but you don't want to be in a relationship with me.

01:01:13

You want to be in a relationship with the guy with the motorcycle over there to do the stereotypes.

01:01:21

But what's going on? And it's just like, well, what they don't realize is that there are people gravitate towards the distortions of masculinity much more than they gravitate towards an absence of masculinity.

01:01:36

And that explains the Trump phenomenon. That explains why people are listening to Jordan Peterson, Matt Walsh, and these guys and not your standard evangelical pastors.

01:01:45

What people sense in your standard evangelical pastors, the thou shalt be nice kind of pastors, is they sense just a deep kind of effeminacy that's there.

01:01:58

And then they look at someone like Trump, and Trump is like exaggerated masculinity. But whatever you say, he has courage.

01:02:05

He has strength. He's based. He doesn't care what others think about him.

01:02:12

But Trump went to war against the media. And then you have people who, for years, you have all these spineless politicians who will lie to your face,

01:02:23

Republican politicians who will lie to your face and tell you what you want to hear, but then have no spine.

01:02:28

And whatever you say about Trump, you say, well, at least the guy has a spine, right? I mean, he has a spine. He has courage. He has a backbone. He doesn't care.

01:02:36

There's a problem, and you see courage. He went to war.

01:02:43

And then people went to vote for him en masse, and no one understood what was happening at the time.

01:02:49

I was sitting there telling everyone, yeah, he's going to win. He's going to win. I could see the handwriting on the wall.

01:02:55

And the reason why I could see the handwriting on the wall is because I look at the crowds. I look at what's happening, and it's just like this is what they've been wanting.

01:03:02

He's tapping into what they want. They want someone who will defend them. And now he does it.

01:03:09

And then it's basically like, well, this is a distortion of masculinity and that it's arrogant and boastful.

01:03:15

He spends all the time bragging about himself and everything else. And then you get

01:03:20

John Piper basically critiquing Trump by, I don't understand why arrogance and pride are to be equated with some other things and everything else.

01:03:33

It's like, but you don't understand what's happening. This is courage. This is the first example of courage that people have seen in a politician in years.

01:03:41

This is the first example. And so they're willing to overlook them. They'll take the bad boy who has the courage and who has the initiative, who has the leadership, who has the strength.

01:03:52

They'll take that any day over the weakness. And that's what's happening. And it was destructive and it was distorted.

01:04:00

But what we need is, it's not mysterious what's happening.

01:04:05

What's happening is that you have a bunch of effeminate leaders who basically, everyone around them is looking for courage.

01:04:11

And they want to see someone who isn't so terrified and afraid of other people's opinions.

01:04:17

They want someone who's going to stand up and do the right thing and not care.

01:04:24

Okay. Well, I guess in talking about the bad boys, right?

01:04:31

The people are more attracted to the quote -unquote bad boys than they are the effeminate men.

01:04:41

Give us some advice for the women who are listening as it pertains to this.

01:04:49

We've had women who have reached out to us and basically they've had this question of,

01:04:54

I actually want to find a guy who desires to be masculine in the way that God has designed him to be.

01:05:07

The problem is, it's hard to find that. And I don't necessarily always know what exactly

01:05:15

I'm looking for, what are going to be the identifying features of someone in terms of the dating process.

01:05:27

So what do these women look for when they're trying to find a guy who wants to be masculine?

01:05:36

What are the indicators that someone might be too effeminate? What are the indicators, and maybe this is the harder one for women, what are the indicators that would point to a guy being far too masculine?

01:05:53

I guess that's not a fair way to say it, but like the destructive version of masculinity. And then what exactly should women be looking for in terms of the guy who is truly pursuing biblical masculinity?

01:06:08

Yeah, I think a lot of what's happening out there in the world is you have all the servant leader kind of types that are out there that appear more effeminate to men.

01:06:17

And then when you have a pushback against that, largely individuals who are going to identify more in the patriarchal kind of movement, within those kind of boundaries, typically are going to be individuals who are going to have a concept of masculinity that's more solid and clear.

01:06:38

And concepts of male -female roles that make a bit more sense and feel a little bit more biblical. But then they're going to be obviously sound very, very extreme to most people in the world.

01:06:49

But then within those camps, I mean, you have kind of like the Votie Bauckham on the one hand kind of type of just the confident leader who would put himself in a patriarchal, like Votie or Doug Wilson or, you know, like the cross -politic guys, those kind of guys.

01:07:07

I mean, they're individuals who are, I think, doing it well.

01:07:13

But then you have like the manosphere, the red pill kind of guys, the men -going -their -own -way crowd who seem to be kind of angry at women and bitter and frustrated.

01:07:24

And perhaps all of them secretly wife spankers or that kind of stuff.

01:07:32

So that's the thing. And so I can understand how if you're a lady in there, there is a very real kind of patriarchal person who is like a

01:07:43

Votie, and then there's a very real patriarchal kind of person who is going to treat you like a dog. And, you know, basically look for opportunities to prove your obedience, you know, and make you do irrational and crazy things just to show he's in charge and that kind of stuff.

01:08:01

And I mean, there are those kind of people that are out there. And so how do you navigate the difference between that, those two things, and then just your standard weak kind of guy?

01:08:12

And I think just some things to think about.

01:08:18

I'll just give you some things to think about that are my observations. But typically, I mean, what it means to be a man is like a lot of what it means to be a leader is to be the kind of guy who's going to take initiative.

01:08:30

And so one of the things that you want to be looking for in a man is the kind of man who's not passive, who actually takes initiative in the relationship.

01:08:39

I think one of the things you want to be looking for is the kind of guy who's trying to have serious conversations with you and is trying to help you to grow spiritually.

01:08:48

And it's going to be the kind of guy who is thoughtful, informed, who is,

01:08:55

I mean, I think the kind of guy who knows the Bible, who knows it well. So, I mean,

01:09:02

I think you want those kind of traits. A biblical guy who takes initiative, who has just general leadership potential.

01:09:11

I mean, you don't want just like the guy who's just – there can be a kind of guy like I'm talking about who takes initiative and who's a good leader.

01:09:21

And then there can be a kind of guy who's just real nice and likes talking to you and basically tries to figure out all the things you like and do it.

01:09:30

I mean, there's something about that that's good. But then does he take initiative? Is he passive?

01:09:36

Is the way he leads just, hey, what do you want to do all the time? And what do you want to do all the time? And does he have any kind of plan?

01:09:41

Does he have any kind of convictions? Does he have any – that kind of stuff. And so I think you want to be looking toward the guy who's biblically minded, who has convictions.

01:09:51

But then I think you want to look for a guy who's like legitimately selfless. Like legitimately selfless, that you don't get the feeling as you're interacting with him that life revolves around him and his own desires and what he wants and that he's using submission and obedience of – like female submission.

01:10:11

Female obedience is a cloak just to get his own selfish way. And, I mean, typically the kind of guys who are like that are kind of – the guys who are generally always talking about themselves.

01:10:21

And basically every decision that they make ends up revolving around what's easiest for them or the things that they want and everything else.

01:10:31

I mean, do you see a guy who's actually willing to sacrifice and who's actually willing to make the hard decisions? Do you see a guy who is going to not ask you to do something that he's unwilling to do himself?

01:10:42

Do you see a guy who will stand his ground when he has a biblical conviction, but he's not just going to do so in a way that you're a moron and you're an idiot and you need to wake up and that kind of stuff?

01:10:55

But that he's actually able to discuss his positions and to discuss them in a way that doesn't just get emotional and doesn't just get offended.

01:11:06

The kind of guys that I would be nervous about are going to be the kind of guys who basically, if you disagree with them, they're going to be offended and turn into a baby.

01:11:17

Take it personally and how dare you treat me this way and I guess

01:11:22

I could never be good enough for you and that kind of stuff. I mean, those kind of guys are just kind of selfish, like crybaby kind of types of guys who will just impose their will upon you and be manipulative about it.

01:11:33

So typically, I think you want someone who just feels stable, feels other -centered, has strong convictions, takes initiative.

01:11:42

Those are things that you want to look for. And I think a lot of the Red Pill, Manosphere, Men Go Their Own Way crowd, there's this sense in which with a lot of them that they really are kind of bitter.

01:11:53

And some of the temptations that men are warned against in the Bible are don't be harsh with your wife and don't be bitter towards your wife.

01:12:02

And the reason why men are warned that way is because there is – the reality is that in marriage, a woman's desire at times will be to master their husband.

01:12:14

And there's a kind of guy who's just basically angry at women. And what comes out in a lot of the things they say is a bunch of bitterness towards women and a bunch of anger towards women.

01:12:26

And the problem, though, with that kind of thing is that right now, any time a man criticizes feminism, there's a problem out here.

01:12:37

If you have your eyes open and you can see what's actually happening, people just think you're speaking out of bitterness.

01:12:43

It's like an assault on all women that ever existed. Well, and that's part of the thing about critical theory is that an attack on one is considered an attack on all.

01:12:55

And it's just like if you have your eyes open, you can see that there are problems that are happening right now, that the vast majority of young women are lazy and dominating their husbands.

01:13:04

That's what's happening. And the vast majority of men are just passive. And if you say something like that, it's like, oh, man, you're bitter towards women.

01:13:10

It's like, no, I want everyone to wake up. I'm not bitter. But there is a kind of guy, though, who really is legitimately seems to have a chip on his shoulder and maybe had a bunch of bad relationships with women.

01:13:23

And basically, that's his thing. He's just mad at women, and that's what's going to come out. And if he's bitter before, he's going to be bitter during.

01:13:30

Right. So you don't automatically change once you say, I do. No, no. And so the thing is, if you're mad at women, you've got a chip on your shoulder.

01:13:40

What's going to happen is that anytime his wife doesn't perfectly follow his leadership, he's just going to be harsh and embittered.

01:13:49

So some of the things I'd be looking for is, how does this guy actually handle criticism?

01:13:55

How does he handle opposition? Is he defensive and just harsh and short?

01:14:04

Or is he able to have a discussion about things like that?

01:14:10

And so those are just short lists of things I look for. But then some things I look for that should go without saying, but don't.

01:14:22

I think most couples right now are starting off with basically the dink assumptions, which is the double income, no kid kind of assumptions.

01:14:31

And so most couples are basically, even couples who are on paper in favor of biblical roles, most couples are starting out just with the assumption that both people will work for a few years and share the load of being a provider and share the housework and everything else.

01:14:50

But if I were a lady, I'd want a guy who's basically saying, I want you to, you're going to be the, your primary role is going to be to be a homemaker.

01:14:59

My primary role is going to be a provider. And I'm going to arrange our affairs in such a way that we start off marriage and I have a plan in order to actually provide for you and to take care of you that doesn't need any kind of income that you already have at the moment.

01:15:15

And that involves me not living in my parents' house and all that kind of stuff. So, I mean,

01:15:20

I want a guy who takes initiative and who has a plan and has opinions about which church they're going to go to and has a faithful track record of going to church on a regular basis and has firm doctrinal convictions and is able to discuss them.

01:15:36

So those are just some things that I would look for. And I'd be wary of the kind of guy who just seems like he's bitter at women, even though that's harder to, you have to,

01:15:52

I guess the way to figure out the difference is because anyone who criticizes the excesses that are going on is going to be described that way.

01:16:00

I guess a good way to figure out how that looks is does it feel personal when they're doing it?

01:16:08

Like, does it feel personal or does it feel just like, hey, this is just the way the world works right now and we have to figure out how to deal with it.

01:16:17

Right. Okay, well, I guess I'll just ask you one more question. That question is, when it comes to this idea of masculinity, it's so under attack.

01:16:30

People reject it all over the place, even within the Christian world. So just tell us, and we've talked a lot about, hey, what are the benefits in terms of, what are the benefits that we get to experience when guys decide, hey,

01:16:49

I want to think biblically, I want to live in a way that fulfills the design that God has for men.

01:16:57

So I guess just kind of end us by explaining how exactly are we honoring

01:17:03

God when men decide, hey, look, I want to fill this role the way it's described in the

01:17:11

Bible. How are we honoring God when we do that? Yeah, how is God glorified when men act manly?

01:17:21

Sure. Yeah, well, it's one of those questions that if God has designed men for a purpose and designed men for a reason and He's designed women for a reason, then it's one of those things that's easy to conceptualize.

01:17:40

So if you can just imagine that a Ferrari on a racetrack driving really fast, right?

01:17:49

Well, one of the things that you see in that kind of thing is, the Greeks had a word for that, like the erete of a horse, you know, like the excellence of a horse.

01:17:59

Like you see the idea of a Ferrari on a racetrack driving really fast, it's fulfilling the task that it was made for.

01:18:09

Does that make sense? And there's something that you say, well, how does that glorify God? Well, there's something glorious about even trivial examples of that kind of thing to where something lives up to the purpose to which it's made.

01:18:24

And then if you were to take that Ferrari and then you were to like, you know, put it in, you know, a trailer.

01:18:35

If you can imagine that same Ferrari like in a trailer park, you know, basically with busted up wheels, you know, hobbling along on a dirt road or, you know, with rust all over it, you would say, well, that was a profound waste.

01:18:50

Right, what a shame. I'm not, you know, shaming trailer park dwellers.

01:18:58

I'm just, no shade. Careful, don't get them after us. Not showing any shade there. But you can understand what

01:19:04

I'm saying, like you take something that's really nice and you just destroy it or something like that. So, but then you imagine it doing the thing it's designed to do and like there's a glory in that that points to the one who made it, right?

01:19:20

And then you can imagine like the total absolute waste of that to where it dishonors the one who made it, right?

01:19:31

Right. And so you think about that as it relates to men and women and if God has designed men and women for different roles and different functions and different purposes, like there is something that's just absolutely shameful about just wasting

01:19:48

God's design in that way and despising it and basically turning it on its head.

01:19:55

And the same thing is true when you take something that's designed for one thing and use it for something else. Like there's something that's just unsettling about the whole thing as far as that goes.

01:20:06

And so when you see someone using a screwdriver to hammer a nail, it's just like, what is going on, right? Yeah, yeah.

01:20:13

It wasn't made for that. Now, can you like force it to do it? Maybe, right? But if you use a tool designed for that, then you get a better result, you know?

01:20:25

And so part of like this discussion is like we don't even know what our role should be and what God's designed us to be.

01:20:32

But what we're doing is we're kind of hobbling along, you know, using the screwdriver to hit the nail.

01:20:38

It's what we're doing and the result is just chaos. I mean, you look around us right now and it's just chaos, man.

01:20:45

Like it's just marriages are weak and pathetic and filled with conflict and disharmony and churches are weak.

01:20:53

And my goodness, like we all rolled over like a bunch of cheap card tricks when COVID came, you know, because we're weak and sick.

01:20:59

Like there's a problem with us. And this is a problem that's been there for years. I mean, in the church, I mean, it's just a problem of pragmatism that's been poisoning our brains and weak leadership that basically is just too afraid of the people to, you know, do what the

01:21:12

Bible says. And, you know, we've been a weak, pathetic, sickly church for a long time because we've just messed up these foundational things that really could help.

01:21:24

And then our society has just fallen apart all around us. I mean, it's, you know, 2020 is crazy, man.

01:21:32

It's just crazy. I mean, it's nuts. No one thought that, no one would ever have predicted that that would have happened, but we've been sowing the seeds of that for years by rejecting the reason why we're here in such a fundamental way.

01:21:47

And so either we're all going to wake up and repent or we're in trouble. Yeah. And kind of going along with that, isn't there a sense in which when men choose to act manly, when they behave in a masculine way, isn't there a sense in which they're demonstrating some of the attributes of God?

01:22:09

Sure. So, I mean, the Bible says that God made them male and female.

01:22:17

In the image of God, He made them male and female. He created them. And so when women, when they embrace femininity, they're displaying certain attributes of God.

01:22:27

When men embrace masculinity, we're modeling certain attributes of God.

01:22:33

And so put us both together, we become a fuller picture of all of that, but not an absolute picture in any way, but we're a fuller picture of all of that.

01:22:43

And God's design, part of the thing is that God's design, one of the things that God wants to happen is masculinity and femininity to occupy the same space, to work off the rough edges in both ways.

01:22:59

And so there is a, to use the stupid expression, there is a toxic femininity and there is a toxic masculinity.

01:23:07

And men in their natural state of affairs are going to be exaggerations of masculinity.

01:23:14

I mean, you're going to have the, just think about the standard college student male with the wrinkly clothes and the house that's a mess and the

01:23:27

Spartan apartment, who throws his clothes all over the ground and all of that with sinks full of dishes.

01:23:37

There is masculine traits can get distorted, but then you can imagine the same thing in the opposite direction to where there are feminine traits that have distortions too.

01:23:51

And you can just, you put them together in marriage. And one of the things that's going to happen is like what you should want to happen is that that masculinity is purified and that feminine femininity is purified.

01:24:04

But what you're not having is just the two merge into some third substance.

01:24:10

Does that make sense? So the femininity is supposed to purify the masculinity. The masculinity is supposed to purify the femininity to where you get rid of the excesses.

01:24:21

And then you have the two things that are more whole. And so, and that's why

01:24:26

I hate that term toxic masculinity because like that's marriage is meant to refine both it both ways.

01:24:34

And if you look at it and you say, hey, it's imbalanced. Therefore, it's toxic. Therefore, I must leave. You missed what the point is.

01:24:41

Does that make sense? Like you can't reject it. What you need is to purify it in both ways. But then when you purify it, you're not creating a third thing.

01:24:50

You're just letting them be what they're made to be. And then they function as they're designed to function.

01:24:56

And then you have a house and a home that makes sense. Does that make sense?

01:25:01

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's a good place to kind of land on just being able to talk about how does this glorify

01:25:09

God specifically? Because sometimes having that understanding, it can be a good kind of motivation to want to actually do these things.

01:25:20

If you're not the type of person who naturally trends that way.

01:25:27

And so we want to be able to encourage all of you listening to basically say, hey, look, all of you guys out there.

01:25:35

Here is how you can honor the Lord by pursuing the design that God had for men.

01:25:43

So that including you and for women, we want to be able to say, hey, here's what you should be looking for in a man.

01:25:51

Go and search and find that person because that person is going to be the one who leads you well as a husband who truly loves you, who truly takes care of you.

01:26:01

And so we hope you guys were encouraged by this episode, by this topic. And we look forward to seeing you guys all on the next episode.

01:26:09

This has been another episode of Bible Bashed. We hope you have been encouraged and blessed through our discussion.

01:26:15

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01:26:24

Please reach out to us with your questions, pushback and potential topics for us to discuss in future episodes at Bible Bashed podcast at gmail .com.

01:26:36

Now, go boldly and obey the truth in the midst of a biblically illiterate world will be perpetually offended by your every move.