Review of anti Calvinism Video

This you said statements either true or false.

I gave you a statement and you said it doesn't apply.

Not too bad.

It's not only true that statements would be either true or false.

So is it true?

That i'm talking to you.

Is it true?

That is true statement.

I'm talking to you.

Is that true?

Yes.

Okay, is it true that babies exist?

Um.

Well, I mean how long babies exist.

Babies exist.

Babies exist.

Is that true or is it not the case that it's true?

I would.

I mean if you want to go down the you know, if you want to be very strict about it I would be skeptical about.

Okay, we're done talking.

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over to uh YouTube we have comments that we can receive from there.

We are on the wisdom app as well um.

And so what we thought we were on the wisdom app, I think it just kicked us off so we'll try that again um.

So we're we're on the wisdom app.

Let's see Tap to stop recording.

I guess we are just we're not have any questions up, but that's right.

So today we're going to be talking about well, we're going to continually bring in drew Vonita,

where are you bring yourself in?

There we go.

I'll bring you I'm trying to figure this out.

So, uh drew we we're going to finish up.

Uh, no laying correct.

Try again, we'll we'll continue reviewing this video uh that we

have um on an anti -calvinism, so

uh, and and I I see that uh, kt is asking Is that an israel's

israeli scarf?

Yes, it is.

Um, that is exactly what it is.

And oh, we we got mike is always wanting to smash buttons.

I don't know what what's up with that smash the like button.

I mean, we could just press it.

We don't have to.

Yeah, you don't have to smash it.

Don't be so.

Uh.

And so so someone else is asking is that thing that thing that thing?

Yeah, whatever that thing is the thing from jerusalem the blue and white thing.

Yes, the thing called the scarf melissa.

The blue and white scarf, uh here i'll i'll.

Take it off a little bit so you can see it.

There you go.

For those who are watching it says israel.

In both english and hebrew, uh, and actually on the other side.

It's just the difference of the white versus the blue.

So.

Uh, yeah, so I I like it.

I figured i'd wear it.

Hebrew israelites here to get upset with me.

So.

So.

You mean you're saying things like you're not a real israelite, yeah.

Um, well, I guess we may not be on wisdom because i'm trying to get on wisdom, but it's it's uh.

It's just not letting it that's interesting.

So maybe we won't do wisdom tonight.

All right, that's done.

Technology.

Yeah the technology I tried I tried don't blame me.

It's it's wisdom's fault.

Let me set that.

All right, so.

So, uh, we're gonna we're gonna try to continue going through this video that we started because we did it.

We had a listener or Watcher, uh who asked us to to review this video

and to give a response.

This is a video that um, Uh, it's it's about romans chapter 9.

It's titled Just don't think about it with greg boyd.

And so we're gonna.

I mean, I think it's a pretty good title because I was thoroughly convinced greg boyd wasn't thinking about it.

Meaning calvinism and romans 9 right?

He really wasn't and when you watch the video It's you can tell he has no clue what he's talking about.

Yeah, which okay.

So here's my debate challenge, right?

I would like to debate anybody On the topic of calvinism that actually knows what

calvinism is.

Dude.

Yeah, we'll be waiting all day.

Uh, the reality is if you guys go back you can see some of the debates I've done on calvinism and the one most

frustrating thing is that the people who debate against calvinism Was half the time they are

calvinists.

Yeah, I believe you proved that with r .a. Fuentes.

Yes.

That was that was the funniest part of the debate was when I just went through the definitions of calvinism without

actually Giving the labels and he was a calvinist and we congratulated him.

He got very he's still by the way.

Uh over a year later.

He is still uh,.

You know bashing my name, uh people in over in the philippines still will tell me.

Okay uh.

You know, they'll send me video and they send me video and he's speaking in You know the local dialect and i'm like, yeah, well,

I can't figure out what he said.

I just hear rapper rap.

Rapper, I think is what he calls me, you know.

So.

Uh, so yeah, so let's let's um, let me bring up a video and uh.

And we could we could maybe discuss a a video and Let's see.

Hey, let's pull this one up and see what what?

Let's see what this one is.

Huh?

You know, like if they don't want to leave they have it all packed up things if it's everything.

All right, okay tell her we just got an accident a several car accident.

Yep, that was my friday night.

Right there.

Big truck that you saw that I was stopped in traffic.

Uh car in front of me stopped in traffic car behind me.

I think they said they stopped in traffic.

You know who didn't stop in traffic the car behind you a really really big commercial

truck.

Oh.

That was what four cars so a truck hit a car behind you that hit you that hit the hit to go.

Yeah, so the car in front of me, uh had minimal damage.

They drove off car behind me.

They now car in front of me was from new jersey.

One hour away from going to where they were headed to to do a wine tasting car behind me.

Well, their airbags went off their back window was shattered.

They were from virginia one hour away from their location where they were going to do a tandem

bike ride uh for the weekend.

Yeah, they were now looking at getting towed.

All the way back to virginia.

Yeah, that's going to be an expensive tow because they had triple a that only covers 25

miles.

If you have the premier if you have the the the if you pay for the extra triple a I think you can

do 125 um, so.

Yeah, that was that was uh, not so fun.

Everyone was okay, right?

We all walked away.

I'm i'm probably the the people behind me were were cut and bruised um

I think as if you if you heard in that video you can hear i'm talking to my my bride we're headed up to

try to um Take care packing my daughter up for moving

and we're just discussing when we can get some stuff done and then you hear me gasp because.

Though you can't hear the crash uh, I heard the crash I looked in my rearview mirror and I tensed

up and and that's I guess the thing you should not do.

I tensed up.

And when as I tensed up uh that.

You know my whole my back my neck were just all out of whack so Still still not a hundred

percent there.

Um, but you know been doing uh Doing some stuff icing it and whatnot to try to

recover.

So.

So, yeah, so sitting in a chair for two hours tonight I will.

This is painful.

I'm just saying but I do it for you guys um.

So I hope you appreciate it.

And just think last time chris and I went over this video got through the first eight minutes.

And it lasted two hours.

Yeah.

Just what we have to look forward to.

So so john is asking but did you share the gospel with the vehicle behind you?

John you should know better than to ask that question that way I shared the gospel with the people in front of

me and behind me and the truck driver and.

Yeah, and the officer so yes the officer had that's why I carry my police

police lives matter tracks because a police officer will always take that.

Because they don't know what it is.

I just asked have you gotten your police lives matter card and they go no.

Okay.

Here you go.

And then I thank them for their service.

All right, so Let's let's let us pick up where kind of where you guys

left off this video.

Um Is is one where You guys had started we're going to

try to.

I I do want to be able to play this kind of in its entirety folks.

Because I don't want to be accused of misrepresenting.

Or you know things like this I did as you guys know my pattern I did contact the youtube

channel told them that we would be doing this.

So if they want to come in, they're more than welcome um.

And so if you guys want to come in ask any questions go to apologetics live .com and

From there, you'd be able to join us in the discussion.

So That's how you join any week that we're unless we're doing a formal timed

debate that that usually takes up the full two hours, so All right All right, well

let us start again with pick up where we left off with this or roughly where we

left off.

So here we go.

Commitment to a belief by your willingness to act on it when acting counts.

So if you really believe something you'll act on it when acting counts.

So if I say to the folks in this house, you know, or if i'm in the theater and I say hey guys I think the building's going to blow up here in two

minutes.

Well, if I make a beeline for the doorway, that's one indication that I really believe that.

If I don't make a beeline for the doorway That's one indication that I don't really believe that because i'm not going to act when acting counts.

So so here's the question is How do you act on calvinism?

Yeah, exactly.

Every choice I make I have to act as though it was up to me to make that choice so I can

only Illustrate my belief that it's up to me to believe with every choice I make i'm Acting on the

assumption that it's up to me to believe this and and to choose this.

So calvinism is a belief.

There's no way to act such that you illustrate your belief that it's not up to you to determine this.

There's no way to illustrate that it's up to god to determine this and so okay.

So let's deal with that just that little bit there drew and i'm going to speed up the video.

I hope it won't be too bad for folks.

It yeah, if people if people say hey, it's too fast.

Let me know.

Uh, but this way we can maybe get through more of it so.

Just just looking at that.

The argument he's making here is you can't act on calvinism.

So what that makes it false?

Well part part of the problem is and we just chris and I discussed this last time was

his view of calvinism is uh.

That because god has we'll say predestined salvation.

Therefore god has also predestined everything else that you do, right?

So the shirt that I wore.

Was god predestining me to wear this shirt, correct?

And he's he's he's not accounting for that.

When when we're speaking in terms of calvinism.

When we when we talk about god's predestination in election that is unto salvation, right?

So the shirt that I wear Has no effect on my salvation, but my salvation

is something I cannot choose for myself in my natural state.

God must change my heart and then he must draw me to himself and.

And then what happens is what christ says in john 6 on john 6.

I will come to the father.

It's definitive all whom the father gives me so there's a giving.

They will come to me.

And those who come to me, I will never cast out.

But now that I will never lose them either.

Yeah, and this is why I said I would love to debate someone that actually understands calvinism now greg boyd here.

He claims he used to be a calvinist and and this is like late in flowers.

Well, I used to be a calvinist therefore i'm an expert on something but everybody points out that you misrepresent

the position.

Doesn't that concern you?

I mean it should if if if.

Like not a single calvinist is saying that you define calvinism correctly.

That should concern you now.

There what they're always doing is a branch of calvin and greg boyd's view of calvinism is called determinism.

Some people would refer to it as hyper calvinism and there are some who believe that.

I remember my my bride's uh Sunday school teacher.

He ended up um.

You know like he got into calvinism, but he got into a hyper calvinism.

I asked him.

I said his name was andrew as well said andrew if I just.

You know pull back and cold cock you just punch you right across the jaw.

Did I do that or did god do that?

And his answer was god did that god made you do that.

I said so I have no responsibility in that he said no.

And I basically said okay then i'm done like i'm not gonna have any conversation with you because that's just a ridiculous

position to be holding because The scripture is clear that we have responsibility.

And this is what These guys have to do to make their argument is to build

a straw man argument.

Because they can't.

They can't win the debate being honest with the topic now.

The reality is if you are going to do debate.

You should know the opposition's argument well enough that you can debate that side of the argument.

Okay and so that's something that We whenever if

you're ever going to get into a discussion with someone a debate with someone know the argument you're debating.

So what you want to do is hear someone out know what they believe that's folks.

We do that like every week on this show when we have someone come in.

What do I do?

I sit there and start asking them what they believe right?

Right and and because I want to make sure I might take for example last week.

We had a guy that comes in he says he wants to defend he'll defend Benny hint on everything everything benny hin

does is right and then we start talking about the prosperity gospel.

I disagree with that.

Well, wait a minute right then all of a sudden we had a problem because You know, it

suddenly becomes about what he's believing.

We can't really.

You know, he's he's now walking away from you're defending Benny hin on

everything.

Well when.

When he brought up every single text that he brought up what happened?

All we did was go actually to those texts and say well, this is what this text says.

And this is what it means in the context.

And then he goes.

Okay, I see that.

Yeah, he goes.

Uh, okay.

Let me read a little before.

Let me read a little after.

Oh, yeah, it's not what I thought.

Okay.

Yeah, we could have told you that.

Um, you know.

And and this is what ends up happening.

And and I you know, you have people that um.

That will attack a system, but they don't take the time to try to

understand What it is they're going after right.

And and that's the thing.

And I should you know, you mentioned james.

I should read james sent me a message.

After we did the show last week.

So let me let me.

Um, he said, uh, sorry, my phone died.

Thanks for having me.

Uh, I will study more in context now and I

command your your double vision to leave your eyes in jesus's name.

So.

So so there you go.

He's he's gonna read it in context, but still miss the main part of what we discussed.

Oh, okay, so let's pick this up again.

But just to be known can you can we demonstrate?

And live out Calvinism.

Yes, we can.

You know how we do it.

We read the bible.

I mean we seek holiness.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean When we look at that, can you be holy on your own?

No, you can't.

But god can work through you.

So There you go.

So let's keep hearing what greg has to say.

At best I think calvinism is a pragmatically meaningless belief.

You can't act on it.

It's all it's all theoretical exactly.

Yeah.

There's no way it can make a difference in your behavior.

Okay I was going to.

Make difference in our behavior.

Well I think it can you know Drew when when I share the

gospel.

By the way folks drew drew is in his kitchen.

Locations.

And that may explain why he's not drinking his fresca.

He's drinking just water there, you know.

So i'm out of fresca I had I had to grab sprite.

Oh.

You know, I don't know if you know.

But I see sometimes in chat.

When you open a second can of fresca people are watching that I know.

It's like he got his second glass.

How many how many frescas will he have tonight?

It's like it's like a bet.

It's kind of like when I went to I used to go to this all you can eat restaurant for lunch every day and they would never clear out my plates

and I never understood why until I found out that.

The guys in the back placed bets on how many plates of food I would eat in one hour.

So every day I would go in and every day they replaced bets.

But uh you know.

To say we can't live by calvinism it has no it's no no practical way of it's like well wait

as we examine it.

When we When I go and I I share the gospel with someone.

If I was to say what he believes if i'm going to say well, I have to.

I have to be.

Um.

You know completely Living it out.

Well living it out would look like this.

If I believe what greg believes.

Then I would sit there and keep trying to convince someone into the kingdom over and over and over and over again.

And as a calvinist I can sit and share the gospel and say god

In your hands.

Yep.

And I can leave it to him.

That's that's how you live it out.

Greg.

You live it out by Trusting god to do what god does.

Hmm.

It's kind of actually Easy to do.

Yeah, and and when we understand that I didn't save

myself, right?

That in in my own flesh, I would never desire to come to god.

When we understand that it was god who changed me.

And then we and he grants us repentance he grants us faith.

When we understand all of those aspects are from god.

When we come to him and we are count now counted as his child.

There is a way we are to live and we see it throughout the epistles, right?

We see just look I mean in the book of roman.

Hello.

We see high god theology.

And then we see because of this theology now, this is how you are to live.

This is how you are to walk in this how you walk how you live will demonstrate

That you have been born of god.

There you go now we should get um.

You know, jason cave says Amen seeking holiness and striving to become more like

our savior.

That's how we live it out.

Now, by the way, um, Was was lost but now i'm found says john mcarthur is upset.

You're not drinking fresca.

I'm upset i'm not drinking.

Yeah, okay.

I gotta settle for sprite if you want to.

If you guys want to bless drew I I seriously get order like a case of fresca

and ship it to his house you know.

Actually better yet.

Ship it to him via fedex.

So he has to deliver it to his own house, you know.

Uh, okay.

John john says this which is which brings up a good thing.

John says i'm still trying to understand calvinism.

That is one reason why I watch this show also drew.

Postmill, um.

He loves tacking that on he loves.

But it's a good thing.

John has brings up a good point.

We should have started with we're saying that that greg is misrepresenting calvinism.

Let's give a a definition of calvinism now.

What i'm going to do is I want to give kind of the the the five view of the five points of calvinism

pre -john owen.

Because why pre -john owen.

Because there's a lot of people that debate over limited atonement.

And a lot of that is from john owen's work death of death so I want to give a definition that

All calvinists would be able to hold to.

Okay, so we look at the five points.

By the way, the five points of calvinism are five responses

To the five points of arminianism.

Now, no one knows what the five points of arminianism is, you know, why?

Because we're heretics.

Yeah, because it wasn't good theology and it didn't stand the test of time.

Right, but every single one of those After the synod of dort was kicked

out of the church because they were deemed to be heretics.

Interesting.

I didn't know that.

Neat.

Well, well because the old the they.

When you take it to its logical conclusion You arrive at universalism and open theism which greg

boyd does yeah.

So and and here's the reason I think i'm not surprised by it, I guess because.

When you get it anybody that gets into a hobby horse theology topic.

Especially why I mean no one wakes up and says I think I want to be a heretic when I get older.

No.

They they get into something that they think is either new or

Maybe nuanced they find a way of explaining it.

Maybe it's helpful for them to understand other things.

But they get on the hobby horse and then They start taking that making it everywhere.

And when you start doing that rather and you start reading that into context into

the context of a passage.

What ends up happening is people like that start to get into trouble.

They get into trouble because what's happening is that they're starting to see one

doctrine Above all others and they start seeing that doctrine where it isn't.

And they start trying to argue for that doctrine where it shouldn't be argued and in that case They start going too

far down a rabbit hole.

That happens very often.

Okay, so I see that you uh, you highlighted something there from melissa.

You you must want to talk about that.

I thought I thought you would enjoy this.

Um, we'll go ahead put it up.

Oh, okay.

Melissa says fresca is john macarthur's tears drew.

It's the holy water of pre -mill truth.

Uh, yes.

All right.

So one melissa good one and I see the other one you highlighted from jody and we'll get to that because.

Um, let's first define calvinism and then then answer hers.

So total depravity.

Total depravity is not that you can you before salvation are as wicked as you

possibly could be.

The idea of total in total depravity is not talking about the the extent

of your sinfulness.

But the totality of the human being in other words.

Nobody debates whether your your mind was affected by the fall.

It was it's it's enslaved to sin people realize that.

Uh your emotions same thing.

It's the issue of your will.

Is your will?

Enslaved to sin.

From birth.

I mean is that was that the effect of the curse in genesis 3?

Yes.

Now in an arminian view in greg boyd's view the answer would be no.

So the issue there is that The the calvinists would say that our

total being Is affected by the curse of sin.

We're in the arminian position would say no.

Uh, our will is completely free.

So when we speak of a free will I speak of a will not a free will we have a will that's enslaved to sin.

A free will means it has no no influence right and It does

have an influence of sin.

And so We don't have a free will we have a will.

Big difference there.

They would argue it's a free will in other words.

We can in and of ourselves freely choose god Without him doing

any work.

That's the distinction when we talk about total depravity, you know, I think one of the one of the greatest lines

about autonomous free will Is from james white's book the opening of james white's books

the potter's freedom where he says does autonomous free will exist.

Yes, god's free will.

Yeah, and and god has a free will.

Because he doesn't have anything influencing him outside of himself, right?

And so We do not adam and eve did.

I would.

I could.

I think I could argue that I could.

I think I can argue that we now as believers have one because we now have the holy spirit indwelling us

so.

But it's still not completely free because well we still have.

You know, we're still influenced by sin and the holy spirit works within us.

So the issue of total depravity is the issue of Was our will affected

by the curse?

Okay.

Okay.

Now going on to the next one in the in the acronym of tulip Irresistible grace.

Wait, nope unconditional election.

Sorry.

Got that wrong unconditional election um, so what this is

is dealing with the question of Was our election?

Caused by something we did or something that god knew now.

What this comes down to is the way that the arminian would argue is that god elected us before the foundation of the

world Ephesians 1 because of the fact that god Looked down the

tunnels of time saw what we would do and he Knew that we would choose him and for that reason

He elected us.

Lots of problems with that a lot of problems there because the the purpose of ephesians 1 that text

Is to say you had nothing to do with your salvation.

That's the very reason he says he elected us before the foundation of the world.

It the whole purpose of it is to say you had nothing to do with it.

So the danger of it is you're actually taking scripture and giving me a complete reverse Of what it

actually says all for the purpose of saving Your theological system.

This is what I was saying earlier when you go onto some hobby horse that you have.

We have a free will and we're going to prove it's a free will and now you have a scripture that says the very Opposite of that.

What do you do?

Well, you find a a life -saving way to preserve the

system.

So you say oh, well God did elect you before the foundational world because he knew what you would choose.

Now when you say he looked down the tunnels of time.

You now took god and made him a a non -eternal being he's now bound by time.

And when you say he had to look through time to know what decisions you would make he's no longer omniscient now You start seeing some

problems Here with this view because all of a sudden god's not omniscient.

He's not eternal.

Guess what?

He's not god.

And he's not all powerful either because if he knew you wouldn't choose him and you'd go to hell.

That there was nothing he could do about it.

Yeah.

Yeah, and so it's all for the the to save the autonomy of human

will and The I think the reason is is because well people

like to praise themselves.

We see that all the time and I think that it becomes something where it's like look what I did.

Um.

So that's but you hear that all the time with that, right?

I chose god.

Yeah, when people are talking about this, but experientially you did.

Right.

Sure.

And that's the difference.

There's a difference between what we theologically did versus what we sorry.

What we experientially did and what we what theologically happened.

Theologically god chose me experientially.

I chose god.

There's a comment here by d she says we choose according to our nature.

And this is absolutely true.

So In my fallen nature apart from christ. I cannot choose

god.

Because as paul tells us we don't want god.

We don't seek god.

But once once god has changed by nature.

Then I can choose god because my nature now desires the things of god.

So we do choose according to our nature, which is why we need a new nature.

Yeah.

So the the one that most people have the problem with a limited atonement okay, so

limited atonement is Really simple most christians believe in limited atonement

to some extent.

Okay, the only ones that don't believe in a limited atonement are universalists that believe everyone's going

to heaven.

If you believe that anybody is in hell today.

You believe the atonement is limited.

Now the only question is how limited.

And what limits it?

Okay, that becomes the question now.

So We would argue that the atonement is limited.

Well to those who believe.

Okay, we could agree with that.

But going back to the previous ones, why do they believe because god didn't work in them?

So Where there becomes the biggest sticking point is if you read john owen's

work death of death he talks about the limited atonement in the

aspect that God died Only for the elect and this is what

you're going to commonly hear when it comes to calvinism today.

Most people speak about that that god died only for the elect now and and

When you drew you and chris were on you guys had this discussion.

I think you even brought up, uh, first john 2 2.

I have a different take than you guys have on that right?

But so so i'll address that in a moment.

But the thing is is that Who did christ die for.

Well, I would say that John first john 2 2.

Let me just bring that up and read that For us

so it says.

And he himself is the propitiation for our sins.

And not ours only but also for the whole world.

Okay.

So the issue here is when.

Well people say world well that must mean every individual.

Well that not necessarily because They you could use the term world as referring to

different groups of people.

It says whole world.

Okay, but still that could just mean all all the nations.

That is a possible reading so arguing That this is saying that christ

died for every believer by the using the term whole world.

I don't think is a good argument because People can rightly point out that whole world can

not refer to every individual but all the nations.

Easy argument.

The the challenge for me is who's the not us?

Let me read this again for he himself is the propitiation for our sins.

And not Ours only.

Well now we got to figure out who's the ours because he's saying that he died for our sin and

The not us so whoever's the us and the not us.

So the question is who's the us.

Now a lot of people will try to argue.

This is he's speaking about jewish people.

And so this is the jewish gentile distinction.

Well, I think that's a hard sell to make out of first john because well first john at the time of first john's

writing.

The jewish gentile distinction isn't an issue anymore.

Second there's nowhere in this book where he's making the issue of the jewish gentile distinction.

He is making an issue of Gnosticism people who were in the church for

saying they're christians, but living a lifestyle that that rejects that.

Okay, so could this be the gnostics.

Well, if you just back up one verse.

Kind of like we said we do here.

We just read the context my little children.

Well now all you gotta do is figure out who he's speaking of as my little children.

He says my little children i'm writing these things to you so that you may not sin.

And if anyone sins we have an advocate with the father jesus christ the righteous and

now he gives us caveat to explain jesus.

And he himself is a propitiation for our sins and not our sins only but also for

those of the whole world.

So what i'm going to argue is the us.

Is believers and the not us Would be unbelievers now right

off the bat.

People are going to say but wait, you're saying that jesus jesus died for someone that goes to hell.

I'm going to argue that jesus's death was sufficient for and this is how the puritans would argue uh,

many of them prior to john owen, but john owen wouldn't argue this way maybe but that.

What you have is that christ's death was sufficient for all efficient for

few.

This is what the how the atonement is limited it is not applied to everybody.

Christ's death was sufficient for every single human being but.

It wasn't applied to everybody.

Yeah, that's the that's the same view david platt holds.

Yeah.

Yeah.

A broken clock can be right twice a day.

Okay.

So just because david platt holds to argument in one area um and and non

-biblical ones and others.

Um, but but that's a good attempt of poisoning the well fallacy.

So I appreciate that uh no, but but the thing is We got to deal with

what I got to deal with what I think the text says.

And then I got to look at how the system fits the text not the text fit the system.

That's the thing.

And so can I can I personally say christ died for all people?

Yeah.

In the mind of human beings I can say that.

In the mind of god, well, he knew exactly who he was going to die for.

So paul or sorry john is writing to believers.

And He's explaining something that from a human level we can understand.

We could say I believe that christ died for all people because we don't know who he died for in the mind of

god he knew exactly who he's going to die for and who who is applied to and this is the thing that

We get stuck on where some people say well We're going to be in.

It's either got to be one or the other that's not the case.

It could be both.

And so What you have is you have people who reject christ?

And they're going to spend eternity in a lake of fire because of their sin.

Not because of their rejection by the way false dichotomy saying that because.

It's because of their sin.

That they go and to be held to hell to be punished.

It's not about their it's not because their rejection so.

The atonement is limited if you believe anyone's in hell.

Andrew i'm gonna go into the back.

I've got to go check on my wife's okay dad real quick.

Yep.

So He just didn't have a good argument against what I was saying.

That's all so he ditched out now.

And he probably won't go back and relisten so folks when he gets back in you'll have to remind him that.

You know what?

I just said.

All right, so um I think what what you

have is.

Uh and kt is saying I think chris gave andrew a good response before I wish he was on

here.

Well Kt tag him and tell him to come in.

Um, because I don't remember what his response was.

Sorry.

But when we look at limited atonement, the big question that people debate is whether christ

died for all whether whether.

Whether we could say christ died for you.

Or not.

Now as a human being I don't have the mind of god, I believe I can say that.

Do I say that not really?

Um but I think what we end up seeing is that We can examine these things.

And look at them to see whether or not.

You know.

They're at least in in the overall what all calvinists would hold.

Can you know, what is a definition that all would hold to.

Well, they would hold to the fact that The atonement is limited In its

application.

It's not applied to all people.

All right, let's move on to irresistible grace.

Now.

This is one where um.

And i'm spending a lot more time doing this because of the fact that so many people misdefine

What calvinism is that's why i'm spending a little bit more time with this.

So When we look at this one uh, what we have to examine is

that irresistible grace is the idea that God does a work.

To bring us to faith.

Okay.

Let me give us passage of scripture for this and this is philippians

129.

And it says this.

For to you it has been granted for christ's sake not only to believe in him

But also to suffer for his sake.

So what this is saying is that god Granted belief to you.

That's irresistible grace.

How do we resolve this?

Well the way that I resolve this and if you go to my rap report podcast just go in.

On podcast app search for rap with two p's rapp report.

And search for super intending.

It's a bonus episode that I did.

And I explain this whole understanding of superintending.

What is superintending?

It is the idea we see in the inspiration of scripture that god works through the human authors.

Such that though they chose their own words.

Everything that they chose is exactly as god intended it to be such that god gets 100 of the credit.

Now no one debates that when it comes to inspiration.

We also see that in sanctification that god works through the human being such that.

Even though they choose to do good works.

The very works they do that are called good works are exactly what god did through them so that god gets all the credit.

We can't say we do good works even as a believer god does it through us and so j

316 ministries is saying Concurrence.

Yeah, this is a doctrine.

This would be a view of the doctrine of concurrence um.

Just turn that off.

Sorry.

And so what you have with the doctrine of concurrence is this the doctrine of concurrence.

Would be that god could use.

Even evil actions like the selling of joseph by his brothers god could use that for good.

That's the doctrine of concurrence god can take evil actions.

And he could use it for his own glory.

This is a doctrine.

This is kind of the flip side of that.

This is the doctrine of superintending.

So where the one is dealing with sin, this is good things that happen so god can work through human beings to make

good choices.

And it's the same idea there.

And so I apply that same thinking to the doctrine of regeneration.

So god works through me.

So the very choice of me believing in him is exactly as god intended it to be.

Such that god gets a hundred percent of the credit.

Can I believe in jesus completely on my own?

Well, not according to philippians 129.

I can't according to philippians 129 God had to grant me

belief.

And so What you end up seeing is that that is what god does so god

works through us.

That's really what irresistible grace is.

Is the the idea that you and I when god works through us?

The the natural reaction drew was talking about the fact that we are going to act within

our nature.

But in a simultaneous act god is changing our nature.

Such that our nature now is to believe in him and it's simultaneous.

I know there's some people that want to say there's a millisecond between belief and.

And regeneration and belief and either way you have a problem the puritans would argue this.

The one of puritans, I think it was christopher love made the case.

That you can't have somebody who is a Unregenerate believer.

And you can't have somebody who is a regenerate unbeliever.

Now you think through both of those.

If you have a Unregenerate believer, they're they're unregenerate.

But they believe that's arminianism.

That is that for a millisecond they believe and for that one millisecond they're a believer, but

they're not regenerate yet.

Well, I would argue the same thing can't be done as so to some of the puritans that you can't have a

regenerate unbeliever.

You can't have someone that believes in a millisecond later.

They're now or sorry, they're regenerate and a millisecond later.

They're believing I say they're simultaneous acts.

And so that's the doctrine of superintending.

That's what irresistible grace really comes down to.

Is the idea that god works through us that the choices we make are exactly as god intended them to be.

All right, the fifth point and this is the one that most people agree to is Preservation of the

saints.

This is the idea that when if you really understand what salvation is it's a work that god does.

Then who are we to lose it?

Well, we can't.

It's the idea.

Can you lose your salvation?

Is is are we going to persevere no matter what happens?

Even if we if we sin are are we going to persevere?

Okay.

Well The question I have with this colossians 2 14.

When did your sin debt get paid?

That's the question I ask people why?

Colossians 2 14 says having canceled out the certificate of debt.

Consisting of decrees against us which were hostile to us.

And he has taken away now.

How much of this sin?

Well, we can see this actually in verse 13 I should have read that when you were dead in your trespasses and sins and

uncircumcised in your flesh He made you alive together with him.

Having forgiven us all our transgressions.

All of our transgressions how he was verse 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt

Consisting of the decrees against us which were hostile to us and he has taken them

away having nailed them to the cross.

Every sin we ever do.

Is future to the cross?

So if all of our transgressions were nailed at the cross when christ died.

If we believe in him and that sin debt was paid at the cross

then how could God what he didn't see what sin you were going to do later.

See, it's it's it's islam that would teach that when you pray the prayer.

To become a muslim that all your previous sins are forgiven, but your future ones.

Now now it's a it's we're going to see now.

It's up to god's mercy.

That becomes the difference that you start to see here.

Is what you see is that there is a distinction between the that.

And what the bible says the bible says all your sin was paid at the cross if all your sin was paid at the cross.

Then there's no sin for you to still pay for.

This is the issue.

So the idea of perseverance is not that we're going to keep ourselves saved.

It's the idea that when you understand the nature of salvation God saved us god will keep us

saved because he already paid it.

Okay.

And so as melissa is saying here uh our sins.

Uh, I think she meant all our sins are paid for at the cross and that's the point.

So, okay.

So that was the definition.

John says, uh, thank you.

Andrew for explaining the five points of calvinism on learning.

Well, that's that's what we want to do here.

So that explains the five points of calvinism.

I said we'd get back to jody's question.

Jody asked the question of Open theism.

What does open theism mean?

Okay open theism Is the natural progress and we're going to hear greg boyd

talk about this open theism is the natural progression of someone trying to defend

god's nature.

And hold to a free will what that means is.

They end up trying to argue.

How how can you have god?

Who he says he paid for all the sins at the cross?

He knows who are his own.

He says all this.

And yet somehow he doesn't quite know who's going to be saved.

He has to wait until you make a choice.

So then they realize well the way they argue is that god is still learning.

So he really isn't omniscient.

He doesn't know all things god learns.

You say well, how pray tell does he give so much prophecy in scripture?

The argument they would make is he's a really good guesser.

He knows how to guess really well because he knows human nature, you know that there's an element of that being true.

I mean satan knows people well demons and angels know human beings.

Well, they've been around for 6 000 years observing human beings.

They they're they're good at guessing some people just have a natural Ability to see people and kind

of guess what their behavior is going to be.

And so they're good guessers.

But That's difference than omniscience.

God actually knows everything so when people talk of open theism what they're

saying is that god is someone who

Doesn't quite know everything.

And it's all an attempt to to save the

nature of god.

Because they don't want to have him seem unjust.

That he condemns people to hell.

And that's what they're trying to do.

They're trying to say that.

Your choice is what saves you.

But it's not god's fault.

That that you you would go to hell.

Hey god.

God just doesn't know.

He's he's really good and he he would he would want to save everybody if he could.

But he just doesn't know what you're going to choose.

Well that starts to get into the messing with the nature of god.

So that's what open theism is.

Uh, really quick.

John asked earlier.

Question is the five solos of calvinism.

Well, they're not called five solos of calvinism uh, the the solos are from the reformation, so they're

kind of category error there john, um so um.

Oh, but here we got.

Uh Josiah says andrew you're misguided.

Okay, how a little bit more information there.

You're welcome to come on in the comments.

Oh, did I miss some uh, he says, uh, okay why repent if

forgiven forever.

Um josiah, I I'm i'm guessing you weren't listening to me.

So why repent?

Um, because you choose to repent.

Because god works through you.

So that the choice you have to repent is exactly as god intended it to be.

So so why repent.

Because you chose to.

Well, we also repent because.

Well, because we recognize our sin before holy god, that's right we we recognize our sin before a holy

god so we repent.

Because we have displeased our lord.

That's why we repent.

He asked earlier.

I'm going backwards which is probably bad but.

Did god create disgusting wretched humans in our mother's rooms?

Uh, no, actually that's because of the the that's because of adam.

Adam passes on the sin nature in the creation.

Or the procreation I should say one man sin entered the world and through

sin death.

Romans 5 12 and following um Josiah if you want you could go to apologetics live .com

come on in and we we can have the discussion.

It would be.

It'd be good to do.

Let me see if uh, I don't.

I don't know where his comments started and i'm just going backwards but he said here, uh God is

small because he cannot do his will unless He pre -arranges it

before he started everything.

Oh, okay the but in it.

Otherwise If god is not the sovereign and in control Then god is

very weak.

And he can't accomplish his will because humans are more powerful than him and can

thwart his will.

So.

Well, I think is misguided here.

Well, I think it's just I here's here's the thing to think about with this look at your question and we.

Because you're you're talking about the nature of god.

You're saying that well, we're saying god is small.

But then you say he has to pre -arrange.

When you say pre -arrange you put god as a creature that is bound by time.

He's no longer eternal in that in that question.

I I i'm going to assume he he wouldn't argue that way but the the thing is josiah

is God is eternal and omniscient.

So there is no pre -arranging with him.

He knows everything.

So It's not that he's he's small because he knows everything.

It's actually good.

He's big because he knows everything.

Earlier than that.

He says I don't think god worried about all the credit.

He's in the business of reconciling his creation to himself.

Why would he why would he reconcile creation to himself if he's not concerned about the credit?

And when you look through scripture, you see that god does things for his own glory.

So.

Um, I really wish he'd come in because it's always it is hard to respond to uh.

It's hard to to respond when you have to to text comments like this, but he says we can't choose because

it's all predetermined.

I'm at this point.

What are we.

We're almost an hour into the show and I have to wonder josiah.

Did you pay attention to the whole show?

Because this is the whole thing that we've been saying this whole the whole reason I gave the definition of calvinism is to point out.

That people like yourself Don't have a proper definition of calvinism.

I I gave a definition such that everybody can agree.

Everyone who would hold to calvinism.

Okay, I I tried to give a broad enough view to capture all of it.

Now the issue is is that we are clearly saying it's not predetermined the way you're using it.

That you don't have a choice.

Is That is a straw man argument.

Yes, there are some extremes.

But if you want to argue from the extreme josiah.

If you want to say that the extreme is what makes the the argument then you have you we would argue you agree with greg

boyd.

That you don't believe god knows everything that he just learns things.

That you believe everyone's going to heaven.

I doubt you believe that.

Okay, um, he said adam created us.

No adam procreated us.

We we have our nature from adam, how does procreation work?

Well, god chose to do that in in such a way that You think about it.

When when?

An egg and a sperm join.

Part of that procreation process is not only the sin nature being passed on from father to child.

But it's also the fact that you get a spirit.

Where did that come from?

Where did that immaterial part of you come from?

That's part of the procreation process just like our sin nature is and so

there's stuff that goes on that we we.

We can't know now.

He's saying, uh.

Is it knowledge or predestination?

I I've said it a couple times, but i'll say it again.

It's god knows all things he speaks of predestination.

To speak about the fact that we had nothing to do with our salvation.

That's why he talks of that he elected us before the foundation of the world is to say you had nothing to do

with your salvation.

That's what it says.

That's the the argument um, so josiah asks.

How is the sin nature passed on and we we already answered this?

Yeah.

Okay, he's asking this question, but it's already been answered.

We went to rome or we reference romans 5.

Yeah, but but how is it passed on the same way the immaterial part of you is passed on from from

mother and father to child.

How's that passed on?

I don't know.

But you know earlier I missed where it is now, but josiah said this makes no sense.

Good, then we have the right we have the right doctrine if your theology makes complete sense to you.

You should worry.

Really.

Because god's greater than our ability to understand a minute at some point.

We're going to say we're going to get to things like the doctrine of the trinity.

Or how we can have a sin nature passed on from father to child and go.

I don't know how it works.

Okay, josiah if you if you want to come in it would be wonderful.

Come in and talk to us.

Uh now it would be wonderful.

It'd also be easier that way.

You're not having to type after where.

Yeah.

That's true.

Yeah, I mean just go to apologetics live .com.

You scroll down to where you see the little duck icon for for stream yard.

It says participate with us or join us something like that and you click on that allow your browser

to Uh to use your camera mic if you use I think if you use chrome browser or

safari or microsoft edge.

Any of those will work sometimes?

I think this only works with chrome if i'm not mistaken.

I think stream yard only works with chrome.

No, it'll work with uh,.

It'll work with um, uh.

Well works with chrome, but it also works with the mac one which is safari because you know i've done that

um.

So and I I think it I used to use firefox.

Yep.

Travis is saying i'm on firefox.

He's backstage.

So yeah so.

You know i'm using a brave and that it works there.

So, um.

So now.

We now we kind of gave an overview of what calvinism is.

So that we can deal with that properly now.

I know it took a little bit longer.

Uh, but let's get back to now.

Greg boyd in his view.

And the irony is I sped stuff a little folks in the chat.

Let me know if it's too fast for you.

And if so, we'll slow it down but we're we're at the point now where you guys stopped.

So this is going to be new so here we go.

You caught up to me chris.

Yeah, here we go.

So the way you experience the world is that too fast you think.

I think that was a little fast.

Okay, let me i'll slow it.

I don't know what he said because i've seen the video.

Okay, slow it down.

All right.

So, you know this thing this is.

What's then?

The argument greg boyd is making is that Yes, some people are saying too fast.

Okay.

That was too slow for me.

Uh I listen to podcasts at triple speed.

Um I I listen to text to.

Well, I have I have a thing that called speechify to take text and.

And I listen to that at like four and a half four and a half times um.

But what he basically he's saying there is that we have to if we experience it, that's his authority.

If we can experience it, that's not the authority.

All right.

Um.

Let's let's keep going.

Well, hold on let me.

Let me address what he said in that really fast part there.

He said he said I don't care what you believe you're going to live like no.

Yeah, okay, not not true.

Because I believe in the sovereign god.

I believe in the god who is eternal from beginning to end.

So I don't have to live like an atheist now.

I may not know in my finite being what the future holds.

But I know the god who does.

Therefore I can rest I can have peace and I can rely upon it.

Now, uh.

London 1689 is Here, but it says dice is not connected.

So i'll read what he put in the chat, uh, by the way true.

Some some people are saying You're breaking up.

I I didn't hear it.

But uh Just you know time time to go talk to your parents and kick them off the

streaming.

It's not streaming those videos.

Um, all right, so london 1689 says Brothers, i'm

i'm still learning this.

But help me understand.

How does election work?

If there's So much language in the bible like choose this day who you will serve.

All right.

First off i'm very confused drew.

Someone is going to go by the the london by the london 1689.

And then ask a question.

Yeah, I I admit i'm confused lone and confession if it says I was I was too

okay, so I I try to explain I I argue that you do choose

Because god works through you in that choice.

And so the choice you made is exactly what god intended you make and therefore

god Did work.

God gets all the credit.

So I would say especially in What as it pertains to this phrasing choose

this day who you will serve, right?

We've seen this before um in scripture talking about You can't serve two masters

right.

Money or god.

And so it's a it's a a saying about wisdom right.

Okay.

Now you can only you only serve one master.

So you can't be be all about christ but all about accumulating wealth at the same

time.

And you can't be all about accumulating wealth.

And focused on christ at the same time.

One's gonna take precedent over the other so you must choose.

And you must choose wisely Christ or material possessions.

Now, it's not saying material positions are bad and saying One is going to end up consuming you.

Which one do you want to consume you?

So choose wisely either the money Which is the root of all evil that christ

or crossed.

Okay, and i'm gonna say this, um I'm seeing both on facebook and

youtube people are saying we're both breaking up both of us.

That's not good, which is really strange because you and I are Hearing we're not hearing it either.

So someone's saying that that youtube is robbing us um, okay so

Josiah saying mind -blowing irrationality.

Well, just come on in let's have the discussion.

Um, because I you're putting things that I don't even understand.

Yeah, it needs an explanation.

All right.

Let's let's do this before we get back to this video um.

Let's at this point.

Let's take a break from the sponsors and then since it's the top of the hour I see trevis is here uh,

and he had a question so um.

We are sponsored by my pillow.

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Uh, but my pillow they love their products there I use them.

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All right with that.

Let me bring travis in.

Travis I know you had a question.

It's kind of going to be uh along the same lines.

As some of this discussion, uh, because it kind of fits with it.

So Go for it.

What's your what's your question?

Yeah, so it's kind of the same but opposite I guess in a sense, um,

i've been talking with a friend who's uh in conversations with someone who Follows or believes in

the free grace movement and so when we're talking about the idea of Choose this day

who you will serve It's almost the exact opposite idea of that in that they're saying

that all that's necessary for Salvation specifically justification

is faith.

There is no need to follow up with obedience.

And I was just curious How would we respond to that biblically.

I had a few ideas like it sounds like they're confusing justification and sanctification.

That's a big part of the conversation.

They As far as I understand it they're viewing

Justification as what makes someone a believer.

That's very specific terminology that they're using.

And sanctification Makes someone a disciple a disciple.

It's almost like a second step a second level of.

Christianity.

Drew it's almost like you read from my notes I I because I knew the question

and I pulled up my notes on free grace and and literally.

Uh, I said this is a confusion between regeneration and sanctification.

Which is a common thing you have with a lot of groups where they start arguing either for a workspace

salvation.

Or arguing free grace what they do is confuse regeneration and sanctification.

This is common because the word salvation is used for both.

We're being more precise in our language now when we speak of regeneration justification sanctification

glorification.

These are more precise terms that the word Salvation Is a

general term to refer to all of them.

And so we want to be a little bit more precise in how we speak and and use that more

precise language like regeneration sanctification so

Regeneration Is a point in time where someone goes from being an enemy of god to a child

of god in in the mind of man.

Mind of god you you are always a child of god.

Right because he knows all things.

This is where we have to realize that some of this is continuing with the discussion.

We're having like we're having with josiah the issue here is that we have language that

is uh It is written for men's understanding because we can't understand the

mind of god and then we have things where god tries to explain things To us that we can't comprehend.

So he has to use language that would try to communicate that so.

This is where there's often confusion between these.

Okay is this confusion between

Regeneration sanctification.

Okay, so so I said, uh In my notes the the the issue with free grace is not

over sanctification.

But regeneration to make to make the argument.

Over sanctification is to confuse the issue.

What what they're what they're usually doing is making arguments of like.

Anyone can just your lifestyle doesn't matter.

You just say you pray a prayer you you Walk an aisle, whatever and just.

Having that I want to believe.

Is enough.

You know a great example of what that is is in free pilgrim's progress.

In the book pilgrim's progress.

There's a man called ignorance.

And ignorance is a great example of free grace.

Ignorance.

Ignorance goes through life says.

Hey.

Look at me.

I'm i'm i'm a believer.

I didn't go through the the the slew of despond.

I didn't go through the you know, I didn't go through all these.

You know these these tasks that that you had to go through christian.

And at the end he goes.

Hey, look, I got to the celestial kingdom and and he didn't he didn't get there from following The bible which

is what it's illustrated.

He he gets there.

And when he gets to the pearly gates He discovers that he's not allowed in.

And just his belief alone his desire To go to heaven wasn't enough.

And he's cast into hell from the gates of heaven.

And what that's picturing is the fact That there are people like those in the free grace that

are described in pilgrim's progress by the man ignorance.

They just have a desire to be in heaven.

But the desire is not enough.

And so they start to say okay you have people who are saved and they desire it but then you become a disciple

you start to to grow and and.

So what are they saying?

They're saying that there's people who are Saved but not growing.

Right.

Well, that would be abnormal.

I mean if you have a child That's not growing you have you have a a five -year -old.

This is a real case that I know someone a friend of mine's adopted a child.

He was five years old.

He had still been in diapers still drinking out of a bottle still in a crib.

If you looked at that child you thought he was a two -year -old he was underdeveloped he couldn't speak

because he was neglected.

He was abused.

That wasn't normal.

And when he got adopted they started to care for him feed him properly take, you know.

Now he's fine.

He outgrew those things because that's the natural progression.

This is abnormal.

To say that you have someone that could be saved.

But you know, they're not doing the things that a christian would do.

This is the whole book of james.

The whole book of james if you're a christian, this is the things you do.

And so the argument as far as I understood it and I think this is just a matter

Of I guess apologetically.

This is my question is They're arguing that james is dealing specifically

with Sanctification which I don't even Really understand.

How you get there?

But at what point as you're walking someone through the text, I mean, um, the first thing I thought of was faith without quirks is dead.

At what point do you walk away from a conversation if someone's not willing to take something at such?

Plain language such clear interpretation.

Well, first off james is talking about sanctification.

Right, he's talking about if you profess to be a believer.

This is the way you would live.

Right, that's the whole thing of the verse you you quoted in james chapter two.

If you say, you know christ, but you have no works.

What's the expectation?

That if you're regenerated you have works that match it.

That's it.

That's the evidence.

Because it will match the root.

Yeah, because every the idea is that every believer will act this way.

Every believer will have some fruit in their life.

If they have no fruit his whole argument is you got a dead faith, right?

Which means you were never saved in the first place, right.

Exactly exactly, right?

Yeah now.

When do you cut it off?

That is a really difficult thing so I used to say when I was younger I I remember in an elders meeting

when I was a very I was like in my in my uh.

Probably my 30s my young 30s like 32 33.

I remember we had this debate discussion whatever you want to say in an elders meeting uh.

When do you give up on someone with counseling like when do you just say enough i'm not i'm cutting it off.

And I had one of the older.

The he was like maybe 12 years older than me 13 years older than me.

Uh, and and he he was arguing that there's a point where you just cut people off.

And I was going no never like you just keep arguing you keep you know, you keep working with them.

You keep working with them.

And uh, I still remember there was a guy who I worked with for like two years.

He'd call me every week.

He'd talk about the problems in his marriage, but he never did anything.

And and so I decided finally I I realized like I don't know if this guy's actually looking for problems or just wants to vent.

Like if he wants to look for solutions, I should say.

So I gave him a homework assignment great homework assignment folks to do if you have someone that's arguing with their spouse.

I said to him I said this is what I want you to do.

I want you to come up with 25 things that you at least loved about your wife.

Maybe you don't love her now.

But I want you come up with a list of 25 things and I said i'm not going to talk to you again about your wife.

Until you finish that list.

And if he did 25, I was going to make him do 25 more and 20 until he started realizing There's some things he could love about his wife.

He couldn't he just said I can only do three.

You know, I said, what are your three?

Well, she used to be pretty but now she's fat and ugly.

I'm like You're not really helping here.

But I realized there's some people that don't want help.

And and I ended up having there's a a little note that I have that I keep in my desk here

before I counsel people.

Before anyone comes over for counseling.

I it's a son I do but I read this note I I just so I remind myself and it says

don't let people who cannot manage their own time manage yours.

And it's a reminder to me that there's some people that will just argue argue argue argue.

When we're out on the streets, I call them a tw a time waster.

I mean, they'll take your entire day.

And They'll argue the next day the same thing.

Because they don't care what you're saying.

They're not looking to hear what you're saying.

They're just wasting their time because they want to they want to convince you they're right.

And you have those type of people so When do you cut it off?

That's a really tough one travis.

Like I don't I don't know it depends on the person depends.

How close you are to the person?

I mean, you know, i'm just going to give you things to consider.

Right and then you have to make the the decision but How close are you?

Are they a family member?

Are they like a best friend?

Are they someone you see every week?

Is it someone from your church?

How what kind of relationship do you have?

How close is it?

Another thing you want to examine is How receptive are they?

I mean, are you just you're saying things you're going and do I remember being asked to someone had a different

view of of uh, matthew 18, he argued that the two witnesses had to be eyewitnesses

to the uh to the the sin.

And he gave me a paper.

They said this proves it and I spent nine or ten hours reading through this guy's

paper.

Looking through the greek looking up all the verses examining everything.

And and I told the guy i'll do this but when when i'm done studying this I want to sit down and talk with you and

we'll review it.

Well, I spent all that those hours.

And we got done and he's like, well, nothing you say is going to change my mind.

Well now I feel like i've just wasted nine or ten hours that I could have been spent doing something else right.

And that's the thing.

Well, we saw that with uh, ben ben zion, right?

Yeah.

He sent all these things that he wanted us to discuss that's.

That most of that's just going to be a waste of our time because what happened when we brought him on the show.

He didn't want to hear any of it.

Yeah, and and the fact is what shut it down.

I I just I gave him one rabbi that had a different view of a well -known rabbi.

That basically said that you know, yes alma the word for virgin in isaiah

refers to a virgin.

He said no rabbi would do that.

Yeah.

Well, there was one a well -known one um, and and that just shut him down

and he just.

You know that that ended it so You have to decide.

You got to look at what?

You know.

Examine.

Hey, are you married?

Do you have you know if you're single and you got the time go for it?

You know if you're married with.

You know a bunch of children and they're young and they need your time.

And you're busy you're working you're active in the church you're maybe maybe you don't have the time to work with that.

This is to go back to what greg boyd said.

This is how calvinism works its way out.

Because what I could do in a situation like that.

Hey if i'm too busy I can look at this and say God is sovereign

and god can work in that person if he wants to through someone else if that's what he wants to do

you know.

So that's that becomes the thing that.

You know, you you have to weigh all these different things.

Look it would be really good uh.

If god just said for everything in life here do this don't do this marry this person.

Don't marry that person.

I mean, wouldn't that be so easy?

It'd be it'd be so much better.

But you know Legalism and liberality both are easy.

Legalism is here's a list of do's and don'ts liberality is the free grace.

It's you could do whatever you want.

But what the bible tells us is we have to actually do the harder thing of thinking through these things.

We have to take this everything into account and examine it.

And that's the thing that we end up having to do it's not just a simple decision.

It's a matter of digging into everything.

And Examining it and saying okay.

What does the scripture want for us to do?

It's the people will sit there and say well, what's your priority?

Is it is it god family church?

God church family.

Well, the priority is god.

It's god.

And after that everything else fits in.

I mean god may have your work being the most prior.

Priority at one moment and maybe it's your family.

Maybe it's the the person you just met on the street I mean there's different things

and you need to Examine your life where you're at right now and what's happening and take all that

into account.

I don't know if that's helpful or just confuses you more.

No, i'm i'm tracking pretty well with you.

Um.

If I was to Jump back to the free grace specifically

um.

He said I I'm kind of a third party to the conversation.

Anyway, i'm more than a friend as they're walking through it.

So that's already on my step removed from everything.

Um, well, have you have your friend have your invite your friend in here for next week?

You can try um.

But so James is obviously great and have to do some more digging there.

Um one of the places that i've looked at was Romans 8 30.

Um.

Those who predestined he also called those who he called he also justified and those who he justified he also glorified something that

all those things Have already happened.

They're tied together.

They're not really.

They're distinct but also inseparable to a degree.

Um, I thought of.

What else?

There were all kinds of things.

Zooming around my mind earlier as I was thinking through this.

Um first corinthians 6 Where he says that uh, what

is it?

Nine.

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom?

And then jumping down to 11 such were some of you have pre -listed those things of unrighteousness.

You were watched you were sanctified.

You were justified showing that all but you guys have any other passages or thoughts of areas where we might

turn to just to show the distinction between Justification and sanctification.

Well, I mean we've got to work together.

You've got for uh philippians 1 verse 27, which speaks about how we conduct ourselves.

Paul says only conduct yourself yourselves in a manner worthy

of the gospel of christ.

Right.

So so that part How we live How we live is to

show that we have been Saved by the gospel of christ so that whether

I come And see you or remain absent I will hear of you.

Or I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit with one mind striving together

for the faith of the gospel.

How we conduct ourselves.

Both in our private life and in the court in the church corporate Is an

indication that the gospel has changed us.

It's more of that fruit will match the root right, I.

Because the gospel has changed me and saved me.

I therefore live differently.

I conduct myself differently.

I think differently.

I speak differently.

I treat others differently.

So there's a I mean that's one place and I mean I would really you can go through all the

letters of paul.

Because all the letters of paul.

Um, I I explained it earlier I'm, not sure if you caught it, but paul's letters are split in half you have

High god theology in the first half and then the second half is the practical application.

This is therefore how you live.

Because of god because of what christ has done on your behalf.

You live this way and then.

If we I mean you've already said it if we don't live this way.

That's an indication that we have not been saved there has to be fruit

that Demonstrates the root problem.

My nature has been changed.

Yeah, I mean You there's a lot of books you can go to.

First john james those the whole books.

Mention philippians.

You have a great passage you brought up in in first corinthians 6 9 because in 11 because it

shows.

When you're converted these things change.

Okay, second.

Second corinthians 5 would be another that where drew reference this earlier.

You are a new Creation.

You go to all of the things where it talks about the fruit of the spirit.

When you see the fruit of spirit, what's just before it.

The fruits of the flesh.

It's making that distinction and you have that in ephesians.

You have that in colossians.

I was just gonna say ephesians 4 talks about the new self.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, you mentioned first john and first john.

Six is one of the another verse that I was in earlier.

And apparently the interpretation of that verse is that a fellowship with god is

separated from like you can.

Not have fellowship with god, but be saved.

In a permanent sense if that makes sense.

So they're separating the idea of fellowship with god from salvation entirely.

Yeah, well, that's.

Because they're At its core.

The free grace movement has an issue with the definition of regeneration of salvation what that means

to be saved.

So that's at the core and if you get that wrong then Everything else is a problem.

Well, I have so do you think?

I'm, so i'm sorry.

I've got to read this because it's so good out of ephesians 4

starting in verse 17.

So this I say and affirm together with the lord That you walk

no longer just as the gentiles also walk in the futility of their mind

being darkened in their understanding Excluded from the life of god because of their

ignorance.

Andrew, hello.

You mentioned pilgrim's progress and ignorance.

That is in them because of their hardness of their heart.

And they having become callous have given themselves over to

sensualities for the practice of every kind of impurity and greediness.

But you did not learn christ this way if indeed you have heard him

And have been taught in him just as truth is in jesus.

That in reference to your former manner of life, right the old you

Lay aside the old self which is being corrupted in accordance with the lust of

deceit.

And that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind and you put on the new self

Which is in the likeness of god Has been created in righteousness and holiness

in truth.

That is the christian walk and how we are to live.

Yeah.

So I I have to go here my wife's just getting home but I can throw one more question at you guys

um the the understanding of

the good news of the gospel itself Seems to be Accurate for

at least this individual they understand that they're saved by faith alone.

So So At what point does this become an issue of salvation for the people that

believe this that are pursuing discipleship that are pursuing that

that growth if they Don't believe that others need to be

pursuing that same obedience.

Yeah, I would I would be concerned with what kind of discipleship you're going to get if you're in an environment like that.

Right.

That's what I was thinking.

You know because if you're you're you're not going to get good teaching.

And therefore you won't be discipled well in an environment like that.

So but I would assume that I mean.

A person could be saved with that.

Understanding person could be saved in the mormon church or could person could be saved in a catholic church not because

of their beliefs but apart from their.

Yeah Yeah.

You know d d says this and she's right uh is free grace equals no lordship

salvation and what that means is.

That's the whole debate.

Is god lord.

Or are we lord like god?

God does everything he can just hoping that we'll just come to him and then it's like he just really wants to have fellowship with Us because we're so

special and he just sits back and waiting.

Right.

And meanwhile It's all about what we do and it makes man sovereign

And god subservient.

Again, it's kind of like a from my understanding and I I'd heard a little bit of this before i'd been introduced

to the idea of lordship salvation that i'm not totally unfamiliar but what I is new

to me is the idea of this being kind of a two -tiered system whereas the the new

believer that's Justified But isn't pursuing any kind of or isn't

being sanctified is Doesn't have christ as lord, but then you become a disciple when you

choose to make christ the lord Christ is lord whether you make him lord or not.

The reality is the the the thing is is that When when people make the

arguments like that that we have to make him lord It it it's saying like

god can't do His what he can't be sovereign He needs us.

Right it.

That's why I said it makes a sovereign human and a lower god.

Right, this is the issue.

So, I hope that was helpful.

I appreciate your guys's time.

All right.

Thanks, and hopefully we'll see your friend in next week.

All right, so, uh.

Just to get to some of the the questions.

I know we got a total of uh.

What 20 seconds passed where you guys went last week in the videos?

We'll torture people with it some more.

All right, so let let um.

There was this that uh, josiah said to someone.

Really?

Oh toro, uh, you might want to read it again.

Maybe maybe andrew can read and explain the position.

I don't.

I missed whatever was being referred to so.

Um, I think I It d might have to correct me if i'm wrong, but I think it's

uh, jeremiah 18 and paul's use of jeremiah 18 and romans 9 as far as.

Okay, all right, we might look at that now first off, uh, josiah says you seem to love the gnostic god

andrew.

Wait, do you guys hear those crickets?

I have no idea what he's talking about.

Um, I I think I even argued against gnosticism.

Well, I didn't completely but referring to first john now.

Let's let's you know.

People are asking is you know, josiah backstage.

Is he here?

He was encouraged to come in.

People are accusing josiah of being a keyboard warrior.

Let me define keyboard warrior for folks keyboard warrior someone who talks really tough behind a keyboard, but doesn't show up.

I mean josiah type this I would love to come on the show.

Okay I don't see him on the bottom.

I don't see him.

I mean, yeah.

We're we're as we're wrapping up and then he'll come in like just when we're wrapping up to say see you guys ended the show.

Uh when I came in.

Look everyone they were being mean to me.

Um, yeah Josiah if you want to come in come in we we've we've said this for like an hour now to

you so.

There's nothing stopping you from coming in but you so.

And if you don't come in i'm going to assume you are nothing more than a keyboard warrior but uh, we we can pick this up

when we pick up the video again probably next week and and um.

But yeah, so so let's get there were some questions that were asked.

Uh earlier, so let's get to some of these that we had no they first deal with um john's

because it was kind of in in sync with the topics John asked a question many

christian leaders In the church sadly later in life have rejected god.

They had to they had to save knowledge.

However Rejected their salvation.

So I think it means they had saving knowledge.

Yeah.

Yeah, I would argue they didn't have saving knowledge.

By the fact that they rejected so do we have a passage of scripture for that?

Yes, we do uh first john uh 219.

Um if I can type that because I want to read it for you.

Second first john 219 says they went out from us.

But they were not really of us for They had for if

they had been of us They would have remained with us.

They went out so that it would be shown that they Are not of us.

This is a classic passage to use to To show.

I mean we talked earlier about preservation of the saints.

This shows that if someone is saved they remain with the church.

They don't walk out.

They don't leave us.

That's the evidence.

The fact that someone rejects Christ later in life is evidence that they

are a false convert.

They are a hypocrite that stopped pretending now much of the bible talks about hypocrisy much

of the new testament specifically.

Much even though they may have the knowledge of what it means to be saved.

Doesn't mean they possess it.

This is the whole argument.

James is making if someone Professes they say they have saving faith.

But they don't have the works that go along with saving faith.

Then their faith is dead.

Because it doesn't have the works.

So first john 2 19 is the passage to show that if they went out from among us.

It's to expose they were never of us.

Christ talked more about hell than heaven.

Christ talked about money more than heaven and hell combined.

But christ talked about something more than heaven hell and money combined.

Hypocrisy almost every one of his parables is about Hypocrisy

addressing the self -righteous religious leaders.

And their views.

Okay, and the hypocrisy that they taught.

Because the way they lived and the way they taught were not the same.

And what the bible says and what the way they lived not the same.

They had a self -righteousness not a Righteousness from god.

This is the thing that we see throughout.

So first john 2 19 is pointing out that those leaders even though they may be leaders

They're not saved.

Yeah, i've got another passage here in john 10 beginning in verse 27.

This is christ.

He says my sheep Hear my voice and I know them and they

follow me.

And I give eternal life to them and they will never perish and no one will snatch

them out of my hand.

Verse 29 my father Who has given them to me?

So you're given by the father.

My father who has given them to me is greater than all.

And no one is able to snatch them out of the father's hand.

There you go.

Yeah.

So, uh another question that I had here for from us from this is from early on actually.

This is from 10 minutes into the show but uh d had asked.

What would you say to a transgender?

Supporter.

Who uses matthew 19 20 and the eunuchs as a proof text?

So let's go to matthew 12 19 12 19 12, sorry, I said 20 and I

was wrong.

Thank you.

So matthew 1912 says.

For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb.

And there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men.

And there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom

of heaven he is He who is able to accept it.

Let him accept this.

Okay, so Let's first look big picture of the verse.

Big picture of the verse is talking about Being willing to accept life's situation no matter how it

happens whether you're born a certain way whether you're whether you're

um Made that way by people make yourself that way

uh.

You accept the the state of life now.

What is the eunuch referring to?

Is this referring to transgenderism?

Sexuality things like that.

Well, actually let's back up and read what it's referring to.

Okay.

What you have here if you start.

You know at at let's see verse three.

Some pharisees came to jesus testing him and asking is it lawful for a man to

divorce his wife?

For Any reason at all?

So what's the context about divorce?

That's the context so when we talk about the eunuch the eunuch is.

That's being referred to is is dealing with the fact of people who are going to be

Who are divorced and the whole issue is do they stay that way or not?

Okay, because he goes on to explain Jesus says.

And he answered them.

Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning?

Male and female.

So if a transgender is going to argue For this as a proof text the

context refutes the proof text.

Just saying He made them in the beginning male and female he there's nothing there's no

52 other genders that he has there right.

Verse 5 and he said for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother be joined to his

wife and they shall become One flesh so they are no longer two but one flesh.

What therefore god has joined together let no man separate.

They said to him Why did moses command To give her a

certificate of divorce and send her away and that's kind of interesting because moses didn't command it.

He allowed it right.

Um.

So jesus says in verse 8 he said to him because of your hardness of heart

moses permitted you To divorce your wives, but from the beginning

this was not the way.

So if they're going to argue the eunuchs.

Is we should as a proof text to say you can live any way you could live as a transgender.

He's arguing that this was not god's plan.

It's because of the hardness of their heart that he allowed this right.

And I say to you verse 9 I say to you whoever divorces his wife except for immorality and marries another woman

commits adultery.

The disciples said to him If the relationship Of the man with his wife

is like this.

It's better not to marry.

What are they saying?

If you can't easily just change.

Then you better be careful who you marry because you make it you're stuck in that.

Right.

That's the that's what the disciples are getting the point of that right verse 11.

But he said to them not all men can accept this statement, but only those whom it has been given.

What's the statement the fact that you got to you you need to accept that marriage is for life.

Then he talks about eunuchs.

Well, those eunuchs are an illustration of divorce and remarriage.

That's the context so.

No, I don't think this would be a good proof text because the the context proves the proof text is not a proof

text.

It it's because for transgenderism at least.

Because he made them from the beginning male and female.

And they're to be married male and female so yeah, I I wouldn't

use that as a.

In my mind, that wouldn't be a very good proof text to use just saying.

So um with that.

Uh, I think we'll pick up this video again next time drew because we've done a bang up

job getting through this.

Lots of progress.

We made 20 seconds and that was with me speeding it up.

So, uh, we'll pick this up.

I mean I I do want to you know, I think it's helpful to go through and and do you know like this one is a

good episode just for folks to have a really good handle on How to define calvinism what

calvinism actually is because as we go through this this is I mean you saw with josiah.

You know if you have to argue against a straw man.

You're not doing an honest argument.

Right.

Okay.

Um, and we have some we we have someone that we haven't seen for a while, but we have chicken man here.

His his his his name tonight is chickens unite exclamation point.

He's holding up a copy of potter's freedom from james white our

atomic apologist friend john.

Hello.

You you have any questions for tonight or you just wanted to show us your chickens?

Um, you know I wanted to show chickens, but they all went to bed.

So, um.

Sorry.

People are asking where's the chickens john.

They were on screen.

They were they were on screen when he was backstage.

I did see them.

Yeah.

They they were afraid because I was gonna you know, call them out for dinner.

Yep.

Yep.

Are you preparing them for the great chicken wars?

Have you seen those videos.

The war on chicken.

Uh.

You're talking about what.

Like, uh, like so so there was this tiktok movement of uh, okay.

People who had who raised chickens and they're starting these.

Okay.

Yet another reason on tiktok.

Yeah, I think I know you're talking about.

You already got the the huge amount of people being um one person being

chased by.

Like a dozen chicken and then somebody else tries to do.

They try even more chickens.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah well.

Let's do this.

Let's you know as far as the show we talked a lot about what calvinism is.

But what I think would be good for us to do is to also explain for people, you know.

We talked about the nature of the gospel salvation.

But how does someone get saved?

What is the gospel?

It's it's very simple.

The fact is every single one of us has broken god's law.

Every single one of us.

How do I know that.

Because god said so and he knows everything so I can trust him.

So what we see is that every one of us has broken god's law.

Every one of us has sinned every one of us would be found guilty in god's sight.

But god made a way of escape.

God himself became a man.

He died on a cross 2 000 years ago where all of our sin was nailed to the cross so that we could be set

free.

We we have to repent turn from trusting ourself as a good person or trusting our works.

Trust Jesus christ trust what he did alone as a payment of sin.

That's what the gospel message is that jesus christ died was buried and rose from the dead.

As vindicating that he has the authority to forgive us of our sins because the debt has been paid.

That's the heart of the message if you don't know jesus if you have not received him.

Then I would I challenge you to consider doing that right where you are right now.

Turn from trusting yourself as a good person trust what he did on that cross as as your payment of your sin.

That's the only thing you can trust him because only god has the ability to forgive your sin.

And if you don't do that.

Then it's going to be something that you are going to be Punished for all of eternity.

Why.

Because god is infinitely just and holy.

To quote matt slick Eternity is a long time to be wrong.

That's matt slick quoting andrew rapaport, by the way.

Oh.

Okay, I thought it was.

Demons with a feather.

Well, that actually was that I stole from him, okay, I did do that I I I

Folks don't know the joke there matt slick and I were on an apologetics cruise.

We're the two keynotes for the for the conference.

Uh, I was the only one out of all the people there that we know of that had paid for internet.

And so matt slick someone asked matt's like why do why do all these false teachers?

They always you know, they're always together.

They always work together and matt just said demons of a feather flock together.

And I said, that's a great line and I quickly typed on facebook.

I said You know, you know, I said why do why do all these false teachers, you know work together

because demons of a feather flock together.

And I quoted it.

I said watch matt slick will steal my line.

And then and then I said to matt I showed him and I said I said it first because it's document I documented it

first.

So every time we use it, I I give credit where credit is due but I I Think

now matt may have been saying it longer than we've known each other.

But uh, i've been saying that i've been saying that line actually for about 30 years.

Matt might even come up with it.

Uh, so we do matt and I have had times where we both think the same things we both think it's original with us so we

have had that but.

It's not always.

Uh, so you said you're going to idaho.

Are you going to go visit him?

No, i'm going to go north of him.

So, uh but that's a good segue into where i'll be because i'm going to be doing quite a bit of

traveling quite a bit of conferences, so Uh, I will be up in idaho.

This weekend i'll be preaching uh this weekend at um redeemer bible church,

um that i'll actually Saturday afternoon four o 'clock i'll be doing a um.

And this is in dear park, washington.

Is redeemer bible church if you're in that area contact them?

I will be doing an evangelism training on saturday at starting at four o 'clock Sunday, I will be preaching

there.

Then I will be up it.

Uh, and I I actually still don't know the name of the the camp I can't remember the name of it, but I will be

doing a family camp up in sandpoint, idaho area uh and

Dealing with the topics of i'll be dealing with uh, the reliability of scripture the uniqueness of

christianity and the uh dealing with social justice, so those will be a topics for family

camp great family camp topics i'm sure.

Uh, and then i'll be doing an evangelism evangelism outreach on saturday the 26th all up in idaho.

So we're going to be up there for a bit uh then september 14th to 17th.

Uh, I will be flying out.

We have a family conference uh, this will be we're going to cover the topics of the the

marriage relationship the Uh role of husband wife child rearing i'll be preaching that sunday.

This is in mottoon.

Uh, illinois, it's called providence church.

So if you want to go to the website for that it's providence mattoon m -a -t -t -o -o -n uh.

So that's my tune.

Providence mattoon .com is their website.

So if you want to attend that conference, uh, then after that.

Right after that actually, uh, i'll come back from there and head out to upstate new york to adirondacks.

Uh the overcoming evil men's conference that's at camp of the woods.

That is with john harris from conversations that matter.

He's going to be running that so if you go to Uh, it's world view.

Sorry, I got that wrong it's.

Yeah, it's it's oh, no, it is right uh worldview conversations .com

or conversation .com and they have the uh, The conference there the overcoming evil

men's conference.

So that that is one you want to to check out.

That'll be september uh 30th.

Sorry, sorry september 21st to the 24th um.

After that in november the week before thanksgiving i'll be in dallas, texas.

I'll be preaching a couple different places.

I will be at grace life church dallas on sunday the 12th I will.

Also, this one's not open to the public.

I doubt but i'll be pre teaching at uh, legacy christian

Legacy classical christian academy for their worldview week.

Be covering a bunch of topics for the students there.

I'll probably I think i'm going to maybe Teaching at a church in the evenings there.

So if you're in the dallas area want to know where i'll be.

Uh, just reach out to us at striving for attorney .org.

Info at striving for training .org is the way to email us and we'll we'll get you those.

More specifics if any of those areas you're in any of those areas and you want to find out more just let us

know.

And we'll make sure we get you those details uh, so uh with that, I

think that uh, We this was I hope helpful.

Someone's someone's saying.

Yeah.

Why yahoo to dallas adam?

So adam make sure that you uh, Your emails will get you those the where that's going to be.

Um, I know grace life church Uh is in allen, texas.

So that's where i'll be on the 12th.

So yeah, if you if you guys want if you if i'm at if you come to any of these conferences, please Come over

to me.

Just say hey, I listen to apologetics live.

I listen to rap report.

It does it means a lot to the you know for drew as well, you know.

You know for someone to come up and say hey, I watch you on apologetics live.

It just it's very encouraging to us um, you know drew has the unfortunate thing of looking at my ugly face

every week to do this and You know, he'd like to he'd like to know.

Purpose.

Yeah.

Well, sometimes i'm blessed and you know, I I get to do the show by myself.

And andrew might steal your bible.

Yeah.

No, only yours only yours.

Oh, okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

But now that I have ones that are nice.

I have one that i'm waiting for when I get down.

In february, I'll mention this the open air theology conference is february 21 to

24 that's in uh, Tennessee, let me see.

I forget the exact name of the town.

Uh, and the the conference is on why calvinism?

Hmm?

Sounds like an interesting topic for us tonight.

Go to openairtheology .com to check that one out.

Um, but that's in tennessee.

And that would be one where i'm looking forward to because jeffrey rice will have for me there in

february my nice new lsb Leather

nice premium leather bible.

He's making for me.

I'm excited for that uh made.

It's now folks if you are interested in one of these I think we may actually

Make it with a striving for eternity stamp on the on the binding so.

Uh, it may be the only one unless some of you guys want to get one, too.

I'll probably promote that afterwards.

So when when I get it, but I hope this was helpful folks.

I hope that you learned a lot.

I hope that uh I hope josiah comes in the next time we do this.

We'll try to pick up the video more next week uh while i'm out in idaho.

It'll be it'll be nice because then like it's very dark.

You see behind outside the window there for drew and yet sunny there for for john and I will be in

the sun.

Uh enjoying that, uh, so yeah.

Are you gonna be uh, are you gonna be in kootenai at all?

That's where i'll be that's.

That's where i'll be staying and then i'll be doing everything outside of so all the travel and speaking I'll i'll be leaving

from from kootenai.

Gotcha.

So yeah, that's where i'll be doing.

We got a bunch of ministry.

We'll be doing there and uh, so it'd be good.

So until next week, uh, just remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of god and we will see you

next time.