October 29, 2020 Show with Dr. Jason Lisle & Eli Ayala on “Gettin’ Down-n-Dirty: Apologetics for Everyone” (Day 4 of a 5-Day Tribute to Dr. Greg L. Bahnsen)

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 29th day of October, 2020, and today is day number four of our five -day tribute to the late

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Dr. Greg L. Bonson, who came into this world in 1948 and departed this world to enter into eternity with Christ in 1995, and I've been thrilled to be conducting this five -day tribute, and I give a hearty thanks, a very heartfelt thanks to my dear old friend, and I'm not speaking of his age, although he is older than me,

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Bill Shishko, pastor of the Haven Orthodox Presbyterian Church, currently meeting in Bohemia, Long Island, New York, who arranged this entire week of guests and subtopics under the umbrella of a tribute to the late

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Dr. Greg L. Bonson, and today, for day number four, we are featuring two guests, both of whom

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I have previously interviewed. First, we have Dr. Jason Lyle joining us again.

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He is a Christian astrophysicist, a popular speaker and author, and founder of Biblical Science Institute, also known as BSI, and it's great to have you back,

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Dr. Jason Lyle. Well, thank you. Thank you for having me on. And we also have joining us someone who is an up -and -coming apologist that I actually believe, with no exaggeration or flattery intended,

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I believe he's going to be a household name in the apologetics realm over the next several years.

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I'm very impressed with this brother. His name is Eli Ayala, and he is the host of Revealed Apologetics, and it's great to have you joining us as well for day number four of the tribute to Dr.

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Bonson. It is an honor and a pleasure to be back on, so thank you so much for having me.

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And briefly, Dr. Jason Lyle, tell us something about Biblical Science Institute.

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Well, it's a presuppositional ministry, and of course, I've been very collective under Greg Bonson's teaching via his books and tapes and so on, and so I founded a ministry that deals a lot with creation science, the defense of Genesis, refuting evolution, and I do it in a presuppositional way, and I think that makes it maybe not totally unique, but rare among creation ministries, most of them tend to be evidential in nature.

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And also just to help people to discern truth from error, I have a new podcast called

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Discerning Truth, which is on our website at thebiblicalscienceinstitute .com.

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Great, biblicalscienceinstitute .com. And I'm sure that you agree that it can be annoying even from your own camp of presuppositionalists on occasion, this may be a minority of folks in the presuppositional camp, but once in a while you hear from some of them who have very demeaning things to say about creation science ministries in general, and I think they go overboard, mocking the idea of putting any importance into the fossil record for dinosaurs and things like that.

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You know what I'm saying? Oh yeah, yeah. And again, there aren't many, but there are a few, and they tend to be very vocal.

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And of course I like to point out to them that, you know, Dr. Greg Bonson was a biblical creationist, what we would call a young -earth creationist, and I've heard him give talks on that very issue, so most of them have respect for Bonson, but they don't respect his position on that issue.

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But again, I would say if you're a consistent presuppositionalist, you need to have a high regard for Scripture, and that will necessarily include, if you're going to be logically consistent, a historical understanding of Genesis, but it really is literal history, it's meant to be understood as written.

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Now when you say that many presuppositionalists disagreed with Bonson on that, are you speaking of the young -earth position?

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Yeah, there are some, and there aren't a lot, like I said, but there are a few that would say that the

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Earth's millions of years old, and I would just point out that Bonson disagreed with that. He was very supportive of creation ministry.

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His only lament was that many creation ministries tend to be evidential, and I recall in one of his talks saying,

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I wish I could give them kind of a presuppositional package with which to deliver their information. And so my prayer is that the

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Biblical Science Institute is exactly what he would want it to be, if it presents science in a fully presuppositional, and I think therefore biblical, way.

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Amen. Yeah, the reason why I seemed a bit surprised is that every presuppositionalist that I know personally is a young -earth creationist, so that took me a bit.

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Yeah, most are, and I think that goes along with having a high view of Scripture. If you have a high view of Scripture, and if you've studied the issue, you tend to come out as a presuppositionalist, and you tend to come out as a young -earth creationist.

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Great. Well, once again, the website for the Biblical Science Institute is biblicalscienceinstitute .com.

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And Eli Ayala, tell us something about Revealed Apologetics. Yeah, well,

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I am the founder of Revealed Apologetics. It is a YouTube channel and soon -to -be website, which is in the works.

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I have a very, very generous brother working on a website for me, free of charge, because he's very much behind what we're doing, and so I greatly appreciate that.

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So I'll let folks know when there's a website available. But as of now, it is a YouTube channel that focuses on promoting presuppositional apologetics in particular, and apologetics in general.

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And I engage in interviews with various philosophers and apologists from multiple apologetic camps.

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As I said, we focus on presuppositional apologetics, but I've had folks like Dr. Gary Habermas on,

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Frank Turek on. And I just really want people to have available to them very helpful, useful, current, and relevant discussions on apologetics, so that people know how to give a reason for the hope that's within them.

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So that's Revealed Apologetics. By the way, just to piggyback off what Dr. Lyle was saying,

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I've actually had Dr. Lyle on my show, in which he had an excellent interaction with a very well -known

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Old Earth creationist, Dr. Hugh Ross. And so I've listened to Dr. Lyle's past interactions with Dr.

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Ross before, and to be perfectly honest, perhaps I'm a little biased, but my favorite interaction is the one he had on my show.

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I thought he did an excellent job. It was a very lively discussion, and Dr. Lyle, as meek and gentle as he is, he definitely came with guns blazing ready with his arguments.

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So it was a very spirited interaction. So folks should really check that out on the

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Revealed Apologetics channel. So you just go to YouTube .com and then type in Revealed Apologetics in the search engine?

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That's right. And just, you could scroll down the videos one by one, or you could just type in Jason Lyle and Hugh Ross.

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And what I appreciated about that specific discussion is that it wasn't a formal debate, but it was actually kind of an informal discussion that was moderated.

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So it's like a glorified cross -examination, so people can really see the ideas side -by -side as they both interact with one another.

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But if they continue to scroll down, I've had Pastor Doug Wilson on, Dr. Michael Kruger from RTS, Dr.

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James Anderson, and a bunch of, Dr. Scott Olson, a bunch of noted presuppositionalists. So there's a lot of information on presuppositional apologetics on there that I think folks will find very, very helpful.

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Great. And I happen to be, even though I am a young Earth creationist, I happen to be very close friends with somebody who works for Hugh Ross.

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In fact, he is one of my oldest Christian friends, and again,

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I'm not referring to his age. I'm referring to the number of years I've known him. I've known him since the late 1980s, and I'm speaking of Kenneth R.

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Samples, who used to be on the panel of the Bible Answer Man with Hank Hanegraaff before he started to go solo on his show, and before he became an

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Eastern Orthodox member. But, and Ken and I get along very well, because we agree on the vast majority of things, and typically

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I don't have him even address the issue of old Earth when he's on my show, because his field is not science.

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So he is not, when he works for Hugh Ross, he doesn't really address the scientific aspect of things.

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Also, I want to make sure that our listeners, and although I'll be repeating this website throughout the broadcast, but I want to make sure that they have the website for the

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Bonson Project, which we will be promoting and discussing this week, and the

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Bonson Project website is www .bonsonproject .com.

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I have to make sure that I say it right this time, yesterday I goofed and said .org, but it is www .bonsonproject

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.com, and Dr. Lyle, if you could tell us, in summary form, as we have been doing every day, because there are people who are just tuning in for the first time each day, and they haven't heard the previous broadcast, could you tell us in summary form who

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Dr. Gregg L. Bonson was, and how you first became aware of his teaching and his ministry?

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Yes, Dr. Bonson was an ordained Presbyterian pastor, and also a professor, he had a

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Ph .D. in philosophy, and a very brilliant mind, very brilliant mind.

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And I first became aware of him, I regret that even though our lives overlap, I never met him, I never met

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Dr. Bonson, but I found out about him very shortly after I began working at what is now our sister ministry,

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Answers in Genesis, and somebody who is a good friend of mine, Steve Carmack, who is actually part of the congregation that Dr.

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Bonson was pastor of, he gave me the Bonson -Stein debate, and when

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I heard that debate, that was a debate over the existence of God, where Bonson was defending the existence of the

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Christian God against Gordon Stein, who was arguing, obviously, the opposite, against the Christian God.

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And when I heard that debate, I was very impressed with the way Bonson approached the issue.

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It was very different from the way most people would approach the issue. I find that a lot of Christians want to sort of leave the

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Bible out of the discussion, almost as if they're ashamed of standing on the Bible as the Word of God. And Bonson was the opposite.

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He was very, he came across as very bold, but also very humble, and I thought that was just a wonderful combination, and it reminded me of the way that Jesus would answer his critics.

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He was bold in the way that he answered that, but he was very gracious and loving as well. And I saw that come across in the way that Bonson handled himself, and the fact that he was not ashamed to stand on the authority of the

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Bible and say, hey, the Bible says this. And now, he doesn't just assume that arbitrarily. He would point out that if it makes sense, if the

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Bible's God's Word, and it is, then it would be ridiculous to try to argue from any other standard.

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He says, now, let's consider the alternative, and you try to defend the alternative, and of course, Stein was unable to do that.

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It was an amazing debate, and I encourage everyone to listen to that. It took place,

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I believe, in 1985, and so when I got that, I thought, and when I heard that debate, and I was so impressed with Bonson, and I thought, this man argues the way

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Jesus argues. I said to myself, I'm going to learn to do that. I am going to learn to do that, because it was so biblical, and yet not anti -intellectual.

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And that was a combination that I hadn't seen done so effectively, for someone to be very scholarly and yet thoroughly biblical.

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Like, that's the way I want to be, and so I got Bonson's other materials, I got his book, Always Ready, and I got some of his, of course, praise

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God, most of his sermons, most of his talks were recorded. Praise God for that. And I was able to listen to those, and really get down this method to understand how to defend the

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Scriptures effectively, and another realization was, that really helped me, was the realization that Bonson wasn't just arguing for the existence of some sort of God, he was arguing for the

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Christian God, and therefore the Christian worldview as a system of thought. And he mentioned that in his first debate, but it took me a while for that to sink in, that this method that Bonson uses is not just about arguing for the existence of God, but arguing for the

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Christian worldview, and therefore all of its essential attributes, including biblical creation.

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And so, I've kind of made it my goal, then, to take this information to the creation science community, of which

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I'm a part, and say, look guys, here's how we need to be arguing for this. Certainly we can bring in the scientific evidence, and we should, but here's a way that we can present it that is powerful, and I dare say irrefutable.

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And so I wrote a book, then, called The Ultimate Proof of Creation, where I take the method that I learned from Dr.

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Bonson, which I believe to be very biblical, and I apply it to defending in particular Genesis and biblical creation.

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So that's kind of my introduction to Bonson, and I think I've listened to just about all of his lectures on apologetics, and there are many, and read all of his books,

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I think. And just a wonderful, wonderful man, and I would encourage people out there who want to get a very scholarly and yet very biblical way of defending the faith, check out

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Dr. Bonson's work. It's masterful. And, Eli, tell us, in the same way, how you came to discover the life, legacy, and teaching of Dr.

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Bonson, and how it affected or impacted your own life, your own thought process, your own ministry, etc.

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Yeah, well, I've always been an inquisitive person. I grew up in a

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Christian home. I grew up in a, you know, going to church a lot. We had services Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Sundays, a morning service on Sunday, and then an evening service on Sunday, and the services were like two and a half hours to three hours long.

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So I always joke around, Jesus left before the service was over. It was very, very long.

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Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

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It was, I was always in church, and so the conversations within my family were always doctrinal in nature, and so I used to call myself a

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Christian skeptic. And what I meant by that was that I believed the

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Bible, but I was very skeptical about why we believed specific things that were particular to my specific denomination.

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And so I was always asking questions, and when I left high school and went into college, I took a class called

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Literature of the Bible, and it was supposed to be a class on the Bible as literature. But instead of talking about the

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Bible as literature, the teacher would take the first half hour to kind of just ridicule the Bible and try to show that the

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Bible had contradictions. And of course, growing up in my Christian bubble, I had never really experienced something like this.

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And so it kind of threw me into some study in which I pretended to be an atheist. Studied some of the arguments against the

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Bible and against God, and then I asked myself, surely, you know, Christianity's been around for 2 ,000 years, surely

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Christians have had responses to these things. And so I was introduced to apologetics in general on accident because my brother -in -law had borrowed my iPod for a wedding.

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The DJ couldn't show up, and my brother -in -law was an emergency DJ, so I'd let him borrow my iPod, in which he took all of his content, put it in my iPod, and DJ'd the wedding.

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When he gave me my iPod back, I started listening, and I was like, other than just bad choice of music,

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I found some other audiophiles in there, and I learned of William Lane Craig.

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And of course, I was on the William Lane Craig kick for a little while, but then I found, within the playlist in my iPod, a debate between Greg Bonson and Gordon Stein.

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And when I listened to that debate, and of course, Dr. Lyle can attest to this himself, this is usually as though scales were removed from our eyes moment,

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I said, this is different. And it most definitely is different, that when you hear

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Dr. Bonson defend the Christian faith, it is explicitly

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Christian, and unapologetically Christian, as opposed to the more classical approaches in which the defense of the faith takes this more piecemeal approach, in which we're just going to argue for some generic deity, and hopefully find our way to the

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Christian God. And so of course, as you said, Chris, or Dr. Lyle, that the Bible is usually kind of an afterthought, like we're almost apologetic about it, not the defensive kind of apologetic, but the,

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I'm kind of sorry, I have to bring in the Bible kind of apologetic. Bonson wasn't like that. He was specifically debating for the

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Christian worldview as a worldview system. I never really saw defending the

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Christian faith as a system before. I always thought, okay, well, you gotta establish God first, and then you move on.

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He kind of took the package deal and said, unless you start with this system, God's revelation is given to us in His Word, you can't make sense out of anything.

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And I thought that that was a very biblical and effective way.

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So there was a biblical thing that kind of latched me onto the method, as Dr. Bonson presented it, and there was this practical aspect that not only was it biblical, it works.

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It's actually an argument that can defend itself, and in so doing, lift the

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Scriptures on a pedestal, not hiding it behind the curtain and hopefully getting to it later.

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No, we are arguing for the Christian worldview. The revelation is found in God's Word, and as Dr.

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Lyle said, I was attracted to that as well, because I feel that that's a more faithful presentation of a

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Christian defense than some of the other approaches that we see out there. So my introduction to Bonson was through my brother -in -law putting the audio files into my iPod.

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After that, I was hooked, and our family van became a seminary on wheels every time we drive down to Virginia to visit family, as though Dr.

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Bonson was in the van with us, as I forced my family to listen to hours and hours of audio after that.

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So my life has never been the same. Praise God. Let me ask you both a question. I'm sure we both have heroes of the faith that were not presuppositionalists.

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I'm assuming you do. Maybe you don't. But I have two that were classic apologists or even evidentialists that are two of my greatest heroes of the faith, two of my heroes that had an enormous impact on my growth in the understanding of biblical theology, especially as a new

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Christian. But it continued throughout my life, and it continues to this day, even though both of these men are in heaven, their writings and the recordings, both in audio and video of them, continue to bless my life.

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But I'll tell you who they are. The late Dr. R .C. Sproul and Dr.

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John Gerstner. In fact, they wrote a book together that is critical of presuppositional apologetics.

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Do you think that those who are, especially when they're thoroughly Reformed and they have had an outstanding impact on the body of Christ, a powerful impact on the body of Christ, do you think that unconsciously that they are not truly consistent in their apologetic or worldview when they claim to be in opposition to presuppositionalism?

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I don't know if I made sense there, but Jason, if we could start with you, and if you need any clarification,

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I can give it. Yeah, I think, I mean, all of us, we all have problems with consistency, and that's just due to our sin nature.

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We all have that sin nature. We all have areas in our own lives where we're not, perhaps, behaving in a way that's completely consistent with the worldview that we profess, and likewise, even our worldview may not be completely scriptural in some areas.

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I think that my worldview, in the areas where I've consciously focused it, I think it's very biblical, but I'm sure

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I have some areas, especially areas that I haven't studied very much that probably are not. I just accept that as a statistical certainty, that I don't have everything perfect.

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And I've learned that that's true of all Christians other than the Lord Jesus Himself.

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We all have these areas of inconsistency, and I've learned to appreciate the things that people get that are right, and I can overlook the things that people get that are wrong.

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I've benefited from non -presuppositional apologists. I remember when I was quite young,

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I read a book by Josh McDowell that had helpful information in it, very helpful information.

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I still use that information, because it's true. I present it in a different way than he did, and that's the big thing for me.

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I thought, again, Bonson himself said he appreciated the work of creation scientists. He said,

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I just wish I could give them a presuppositional package in which to present that. So I think that just comes with increasing sanctification.

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You realize we all have our strengths and weaknesses. Yes, I've benefited from R .C.

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Sproul. I've benefited from C .S. Lewis, and he wasn't completely consistent in some areas, but in other areas he was very insightful.

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And so you've just got to take the good with the bad and recognize that all of us who are

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Christians, we're not totally sanctified yet, and therefore there are going to be inconsistencies in our thinking.

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And in fact, you, Eli, just mentioned moments ago that you've had

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Frank Turek on your program. And I hope Frank, if he ever hears this, isn't insulted by this, but I mean this actually as a compliment, that I think that he has been so inconsistent at times that he sounds at times like a presuppositionalist, even though at other times he makes it clear that he is not.

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But if you could even respond to that and anything else that I said about the blessed inconsistency of Christians that have a good impact or even a powerful impact on the body of Christ and on the world.

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Is that for me or Dr. Lyle? That's for you, Eli, because you said before that you had interviewed Frank Turek on the on your program.

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And I've had Frank on my show, and I've moderated a debate that he had with an atheist, been at speaking engagements with him, and although I have a number of disagreements with him, he's an old earther and so on, but at times when he is at his best, he seems to be inconsistent with some of his views.

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But anyway, if you could follow that train of thought. Yeah, I would agree.

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I think I'm going to read something real quick for you. This is my last Facebook private message, and I'm sure he wouldn't mind me sharing this, with Dr.

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John Frame, who is a famous student of Cornelia Santill and, of course, teacher of Greg Bonson as well.

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And I invited him onto my show, and he said, listen, hey, I'm 81 and I'm done. So he says,

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I think it touches on what you're just bringing up with Dr. Turek. He says, I used to engage in those debates with great gusto, the debates over methodology, but no longer.

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I think we'd be better off not arguing about methodology and instead take it to the street as Greg Bonson asked us to do.

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My final word on all of this is, and I quote, every presuppositionalist is at heart an evidentialist, and every evidentialist is at heart a presuppositionalist.

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Now, I think I know what he's saying there, and I think you touched on it with regards to someone like Dr.

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Turek. We do have commitments. We worship God, and we cry in the midst of prayer, and we have this in -depth relationship with the

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God we know that exists. But because of our theological commitments and our methodologies that we've adopted, we don't argue that way all the time.

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So interestingly enough, when we're in church, we will cry out to the God we know that's there.

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We'll pray to the God we know that's there. But in debate, we'll argue about the God that most likely exists.

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You see? So there is an inconsistency with our theological commitments and our

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Christian experiential commitments with regards to our relationship with God. There's an inconsistency between that and the way that we argue about it in the context of evangelism and apologetics.

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And that is, in my view, due to the fact that not many people are conscious that their apologetic methodology must flow from a consistent theology.

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Theologically, these guys are all gung -ho. You know, I know the God that I'm theologically reflecting upon.

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But then because of an inconsistency in their apologetic methodology, they don't argue for that God that they know exists in a way that's consistent with those prior commitments.

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And so, as Dr. Lyle said, these are inconsistencies that the presuppositionalists should, with gentleness and respect, point out and call those folks to a better consistency.

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And so, that being said, that doesn't mean we can't learn from these folks. If people were to ask me who are the most influential thinkers upon my own thinking, my holy trinity of apologists, if I can use that word, and I don't mean it disrespectfully, but my triple threat apologists that have had the greatest impact on my thinking is

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Cornelius Van Til, Greg Bonson, and William Lane Craig.

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Now, William Lane Craig comes out of complete left field because he's not Reformed, he's not presuppositionalist, but I've learned so much about apologetics and how to defend the faith and to think rationally, even in the midst of my strong theological and philosophical disagreements with him.

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And so, as Bonson was keen to say, that God can strike a blow with a crooked stick, and we're all crooked sticks. We're just, you know, our prayer is that God uses us, broken people, to, you know, effect change for the gospel, be as faithful as we possibly can be, and pray that God takes over the result.

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And so, we're not always going to do that consistently. In fact, according to, or to recite your quote of John Frame, that every presuppositionalist at heart is an evidentialist.

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I've heard a number of presuppositionalists say that there is nothing but evidence. So, that adds some...

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Well, Chris, that's exactly why I think John Frame said this.

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In fact, Eli, can you pick up where you left off, because we have to go to our first break. Just remember where you're leaving off there.

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And don't go away, folks. If you want to join us in the conversation with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -S -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

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USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away.

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We'll be right back with our fourth day of tribute. Here's what

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Gary DeMar, President of American Vision, had to say about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio recently.

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Good to be back. Chris, I always enjoy our time. You, I have to tell you, one of the better interviewers out there, and I've been doing this for 30, more than 30 years.

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Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.

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We're in good shape. I'm glad you said it on the air, so I don't have to brag about myself.

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Tell your friends and loved ones about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, airing live, Monday through Friday, 4 to 6 p .m.

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Eastern Time, at ironsharpensironradio .com. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

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Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers, which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

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Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

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Sovereign Lord, God, Savior and King Jesus Christ today and always.

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Call 1 -800 -669 -4878. I'm Dr.

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Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

38:57

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word and to enthusiastically proclaim

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Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island and beyond.

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

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For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

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That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

39:53

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

40:10

And while you're at it, why not call Hope Reform Baptist Church at 631 -696 -5711 to find out how you can get a video or audio of Eli Ayala's presentation at a recent conference where I happen to be present, where Eli actually gave a masterful presentation on limited atonement, also known as definite atonement, particular redemption and substitutionary atonement, even though Armenians are using that phrase these days to identify what they believe, but they can't be logically consistent when they do that.

40:50

But I was very blessed. In fact, someone who was involved in that conference wanted me to speak on limited atonement at something that they were doing on their program.

41:04

I believe it was on their podcast. And after hearing Eli give his presentation, I said, no, I'm not going to do that.

41:12

But anyway, Eli, you were just talking about John Frame and his blessed inconsistency, if you could.

41:21

Well, just real quick on one of the last commercials there, I think I heard Dr. Tony Costa.

41:28

Yes. I'm actually having him on my show tonight at nine Eastern time.

41:34

Great. Because I just recently had Hank Hanegraaff on to talk about Eastern Orthodoxy and Dr.

41:40

Tony Costa on to review it. And so we'll be considering that very important topic. But that made me think about it as I heard him there.

41:48

Now, with regard to the evidentialism, really, I was speaking about Scott Oliphant, who, in a very helpful way, said that presuppositionalists are eminently evidentialists.

42:02

And that's because we believe literally everything is evidence for God. See, unlike many classicalists or evidentialists, where they often focus upon extraordinary things that point to God, the presuppositionalists can point to both ordinary and extraordinary things.

42:19

So that the ordinary things are evidence for God, just as much as the extraordinary things are evidence for God.

42:26

So we are eminently evidential, since literally everything is evidence of the God of Scripture.

42:34

Great. We have some questions from listeners lined up here.

42:41

We have, let's see here, I was just looking at it. Oh, we have

42:47

Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who asks, To your knowledge, do either one of you know whether or not

42:55

Cornelius Van Till shared the theonomy and Christian Reconstructionist views of Dr.

43:01

Greg L. Bonson? Why don't we start with Jason Lyle?

43:09

Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I haven't read as much Van Till. I've read some

43:14

Van Till. I haven't read as much as I have with Bonson. I'm sure they talked about it, but I don't know if he was on the same page on all those other issues.

43:22

Maybe you can comment on that. Yeah, I have read

43:28

Van Till, but I don't believe he made the full dive as Dr. Bonson did. I may be mistaken, but there are some followers of Van Till who thought that the theonomic position is the logical outflow of a consistently presuppositional mindset.

43:44

So just as we would say, for example, that a presuppositional methodology flows from a consistent application of Reformed theology, some people would argue that theonomy is a consistent application of presuppositional thinking with regards to God's law and its role for believers and the world today.

44:03

So to my knowledge, I do not think he held to theonomy as Bonson did, but there are some followers of Van Till who thought that it was the logical outflow of Van Till's thought.

44:15

Now, whether one thinks that that is a valid point or not, this is an area where people debate, so we most likely won't go into that here.

44:23

Well, Ronald, maybe you'll find out when you read Van Till's Apologetic by Greg L.

44:30

Bonson because you just want it. PNR and publishing were kind enough to provide us with copies of this book that we have been giving out every day, and we need your full mailing address in eastern

44:46

Suffolk County so that our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com,

44:53

can ship that out to you at no cost to you and at no cost to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and we thank again

45:01

PNR Publishing for their generosity in providing these books. If you want more information on PNR Publishing, go to PRPbooks .com,

45:11

PRPbooks .com. I would ask you, though, however, to purchase anything you might see on their website from CVBBS .com

45:19

since CVBBS, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, sponsors this program, and nobody's hurt when you use them as your source for purchasing the book because they have to purchase it from PNR Publishing, and so we hope that you enjoy that.

45:36

Um, and let's see here, we have another listener. Uh, we have, this is an anonymous listener, and the anonymous listener says,

45:49

I have been getting into hot water at the church where I am a member because I have become increasingly more fascinated and in agreement with presuppositionalism and Reform theology.

46:05

I was wondering if either of you have any advice, and perhaps you could give advice, gleaning from what

46:11

Dr. Bonson might have to say, on how to respond to those who I think have misunderstandings and caricatures of both of those systems of thought, presuppositionalism and Reform theology.

46:24

I don't want to sound like an upstart, or I don't want to sound rude, or that I am not submissive to my elders, but at the same time, if they are passing on misinformation,

46:37

I think they need to be corrected. Well, one thing I would just, if you can do this, and it's not easy to do this, but if you can think of questions that reveal a person's inconsistency, that's a great way to do it, because there you're not making any assertion that anybody can get mad at, you're just saying, hey, how much, you know, or what scripture could be used to support

47:05

X, Y, or Z? If you can ask intelligent questions, then if the person starts to get upset, you can say, oh,

47:12

I'm sorry, I'm just asking questions, I'm just curious as to your take on this. It's not easy to do that, the sort of Socratic way of getting people to realize the truth by asking probing questions.

47:23

It's very effective, though. I wish I were better at it, to be honest. But that's one way you can go. And then, of course, you'll have to decide at what point, you know, how aligned does my church have to be with what

47:36

I believe to be the biblical worldview? It's not going to be 100%, you're not going to find that. But, you know, at what point do

47:44

I decide, you know, this just isn't within the realm of what

47:49

I'm going to be needing to be nourished biblically, and then you need to decide if you can, can you, by asking probing questions, influence the leadership of your church to be more biblical, or do you need to switch churches?

48:01

And either of those, it's not, it's, I don't, I can't give a black and white answer when it's time to do that. But I know somebody might have a very important role in the church.

48:11

Sure. And, of course, if it is their heartfelt understanding that they eventually come to that they have to depart, they should always do so with respect and gentleness and kindness and so on.

48:26

And Eli, you have any thoughts of your own? Yeah, well, just to piggyback off what you were saying with gentleness and respect, you kind of alluded to 1

48:34

Peter chapter 3 verse 15, which says, but in your hearts for pure Christ as Lord, always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have, but do this with gentleness and respect.

48:45

So taking a cue from Dr. Lyle's advice, make sure that the way you interact with people is with a gentleness and respect.

48:52

Now, because you're Reformed, that doesn't mean you have to go to your church with a

48:57

John Calvin is my homeboy t -shirt. Just because you are a presuppositionalist doesn't mean you have to go to every

49:04

Bible study with a Greg Fonsen is my homeboy t -shirt. These are important issues, but you don't have to be kind of the, you know, you're bringing it up all the time, as Dr.

49:13

Lyle said, subtly bring these issues up in the context of bringing people to consistency.

49:19

And so I think that doing that with gentleness and respect and with tact and strategy, I think will be very helpful to help your case.

49:26

Other than that, if you feel so convicted with regards to a Reformed understanding, then maybe it would be better for you to be in a church that is more consistent with that Reformed theology.

49:38

But as Chris said, you're not going to find a church that is going to agree with every jot and tittle.

49:44

You do have to be able to tolerate some differences with regards to non -essential issues and tread those waters very carefully.

49:51

But whatever you do, do it respectfully, with gentleness and respect, honoring Christ, not just in the content of the theology and the apologetic that you're promoting, but also the method and the way in which you engage others needs to itself be consistent with Scripture as well.

50:08

So make sure you are very careful of that. Well, Anonymous, if you provide for us, of course, off the air, your full name and your mailing address, you have won a copy of another book we've been giving away every day,

50:22

Against All Opposition by Greg L. Bonson. This is a transcribed version of lectures given by Dr.

50:33

Bonson that American Vision has compiled. And I hope that you are blessed by this book,

50:42

Against All Opposition, Defending the Christian Worldview, which is the subtitle.

50:48

And we are happy to share that with you. If anybody wants to find out more about this book, go to AmericanVision .org,

50:57

AmericanVision .org. And those are all the books we have to give away today, because we are spreading them out throughout the week.

51:07

And so we thank you, Anonymous, for being the final winner of the day.

51:14

I have another question that I'm going to read to you that I want you to answer when we come back, as we are going to be having to go to our midway break any moment.

51:25

But we have actually the man who is the founder of the

51:31

Bonson Project, Graham Dugas, who I interviewed on Tuesday.

51:38

And Graham Dugas wants both of you to comment about God in the

51:44

Dock. And if you could respond to that question when we return.

51:50

And folks, this is our longer than normal break. I hope that you are patient with us, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

52:00

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show, because the

52:06

FCC requires of them to localize Iron Trump and Zion Radio and all their programming to Lake City, Florida.

52:15

So they air their own public service announcements and all other local things during the middle break, while we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

52:26

So please use this time wisely. Write down as much of the information as you can provided by our advertisers, so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize our advertisers, which will subsequently hopefully keep them happy enough to continue being our advertisers, which will, in a domino effect, hopefully result in us,

52:48

Iron Trump and Zion Radio, remaining on the air for a longer future, because we absolutely depend upon our advertisers and our generous donors to exist.

52:59

Some of my listeners have complained about the length of the ad breaks and the number of advertisers that we have.

53:07

But folks, this show ain't going to exist without our advertisers. I'm sorry to say. Well, I'm actually not sorry.

53:14

I'm very grateful to God that these advertisers think highly enough of Iron Trump and Zion Radio that they invest money in keeping it in existence.

53:24

So next time you have a complaint in your mind about it, just remember they are keeping the show on the air.

53:33

So write down the information provided by our advertisers and also send in your questions to Dr.

53:39

Jason Lyle and Eli Ayala about Greg Bonson and about our sub -theme that we are going to be addressing when we come back from the break.

53:53

And that sub -theme is getting down and dirty, apologetics for everyone.

53:59

We're going to start emphasizing that in the second half of the program. So send in your questions to ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

54:06

ChrisArnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence.

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Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. We are excited to announce another new member of the

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In Psalm 139 verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this. I praise you because I'm fearfully and wonderfully made and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well.

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That's l -i -y -f -c .org. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

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A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

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Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.

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They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

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God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

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God -centered focus, reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs.

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Baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.

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Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at g -c -b -c -n -j -dot -squarespace -dot -com.

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That's g -c -b -c -n -j -dot -squarespace -dot -com.

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Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

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Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Hi, this is

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John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the

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Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

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Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

01:00:02

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised

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Chris up for just such a time and knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

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I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

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01:02:07

James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.

01:02:29

I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my

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New York debates. I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the

01:02:48

Holy Scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

01:02:53

I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,

01:03:00

Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

01:03:07

That's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711.

01:03:14

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:03:34

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio depends upon the financial support of fine Christian organizations to remain on the air, like the

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Historical Bible Society. The Historical Bible Society maintains a collection of Christian books, manuscripts, and Bibles of historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years.

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The mission of HBS is the preservation and public display of ancient Scripture, dissemination of Scripture, to provide tools equipping believers and Christian apologetics with evidence for the

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Bible's reliability, and to introduce Reformation literature and Christian art to a broader audience.

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Since 2004, HBS has toured schools and churches throughout the Northeast United States, reaching thousands of believers and non -believers alike who are hungry for knowledge of the

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today. Thank you, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, for your faithful support of Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

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...hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing. We're a diverse family of all ages.

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Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ. In fellowship, play, and together. Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

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Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402.

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Or visit linbrookbaptist .org. That's linbrookbaptist .org. Iron Trump and Zion Radio, first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

01:06:02

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

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I'm Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmont and Ironworks, New Hampshire, and the

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Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Trump and Zion Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?

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01:07:47

This is Pastor Bill Sousa of Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

01:07:54

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

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Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

01:08:35

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01:08:45

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01:08:53

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01:09:09

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01:11:35

Also, folks, before we return to our discussion with Dr. Jason Lyle and Eli Ayala, as we are now in day number four of our five -day tribute to the late

01:11:46

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01:11:51

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01:12:13

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01:12:22

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01:16:03

It's also the email address where you can send in a question to Dr. Jason Lyle and Eli Ayala on the theme of paying tribute to the late

01:16:13

Dr. Greg L. Bonson. And today's specific theme, the fourth day of this five -day tribute, is getting down and dirty, apologetics for everyone.

01:16:24

But if you could, both of you, in fact, let's start with Dr. Jason Lyle.

01:16:31

Graham Dugas, the founder of bonsonproject .com, asked you both to comment on God in the dock.

01:16:44

Yeah, this was a phrase, I think it might have been first proposed by C .S. Lewis, who, again, occasionally would make statements that were very in line with presuppositional things although not always, he wasn't as consistent as someone like Bonson.

01:16:57

But the idea, it's a reference to a courtroom where the idea is that God is the one who's on trial, he's the one who has to take the witness stand and defend himself to the unbeliever.

01:17:07

And many apologetic situations, the unbeliever expects us to approach the situation like that.

01:17:14

He thinks he's the judge, he thinks that it's our job to prove to him that God exists, or perhaps even the

01:17:21

Christian God, then maybe if he is satisfied that God has successfully defended himself, then he'll bow the knee and he'll receive

01:17:29

Christ as Savior, at least he says he will. But the problem with that is it's not true. The mind of man is not the judge of whether or not

01:17:38

God's word is true. God's word is the judge of the mind of man. God's the judge of all the earth. And so it's not our minds that are in a position to judge

01:17:46

God. Our minds are finite, fallible, we don't know everything. It doesn't make any sense for us to be the standard by which we judge

01:17:53

God, who is truth, whose mind determines truth. And so it's this role reversal.

01:17:59

And we tend to fall into this as part of our sin nature, beginning with Eve, when she fell, effectively she decided that she was the one, her mind was going to be the one to determine whether or not

01:18:09

God's word was true. And so she decided to do a little experiment to test God's word. Now, of course, God's word is true, but the question is, whose mind determines truth?

01:18:19

Is it man or God? And one of the issues that I have with apologetic methods that are not presuppositional, take the evidential or classical approach, is that they go along with this myth that the mind of man is sufficient to, by his own standards and his own reasoning, evaluate the evidence, correctly conclude that God exists or that the

01:18:41

Bible is true or whatever claim you're defending. And I consider that to be a little bit dishonest because it's not true.

01:18:49

And to go along with it and say, yes, Mr. Unbeliever, your mind is more than sufficient to judge

01:18:54

God, and you're the judge, all right, and God's the defense, please let me act as God's defense attorney, and I'll show you that there's evidence.

01:19:01

You will be satisfied. That's just not the situation. And I would prefer to be honest with my unbelieving friend and say, look,

01:19:08

I'm happy to discuss evidence and things like that, but you need to understand something. God's not on trial here, you are. You're the one that's going to be judged ultimately.

01:19:16

God is not in the dock, you are. You're the one that's on trial and your standards are self -refuting. We can talk about your standards.

01:19:22

I'm happy to talk about evidence, happy to demonstrate that God exists, but you need to understand it won't be according to your standard because your standard is wrong.

01:19:30

You need to start with God and His standard in order to reason correctly at all. And then I'm happy to go into details about that and talk about that a little more depth.

01:19:37

But I don't let the unbeliever get away with his delusion that he's in a position to judge

01:19:42

God's word, he's not. And Eli, you have any further comments? Yeah, those are really great points.

01:19:50

I think what really strikes at the heart of the God in the Dock concept, putting

01:19:55

God to the test, it really allows us to highlight the twin poisons of all intellectual thinking that manifest an unfaithfulness to the

01:20:05

God of Scripture. And those twin poisons are neutrality and autonomy.

01:20:10

Neutrality and autonomy. These two things are something that Dr. Greg Bonson has written much on. And of course, it's also found in the writings of Dr.

01:20:20

Van Til. Neutrality, or the myth of neutrality, as Bonson often put it, is the mistaken notion that one can approach the question of God's existence in an unbiased fashion, right?

01:20:33

In a no -one -knows -as -of -yet mindset. A neutral approach to apologetics, in essence, grants the unbeliever's position that he is, in fact, ignorant of God, and that all he needs is to follow the evidence.

01:20:46

And it is quite possible, however improbable, that the evidence can lead away from God.

01:20:52

That's what the neutral mindset would have us believe. But of course, as Dr. Lyle pointed out, no one is neutral with regards to the

01:20:58

God question. And this neutral approach has attached to it this assumption of individual intellectual autonomy.

01:21:06

That is a very important term. Neutrality and autonomy are two big vocabulary words that people want to become familiar with when they study presuppositionalism.

01:21:14

They'll see it a lot in the writings of Bonson. The word autonomy derives from two Greek words, autol and nama, which means self -law, okay?

01:21:23

Human autonomy asserts that man's reasoning is the ultimate criterion of knowledge.

01:21:30

Now, of course, we as Christians who believe the Bible, we believe that God is the ultimate criterion of knowledge, right?

01:21:37

Without the revelation of God and without seeing the world and understanding the world within the context of God's revelation, we would never know any particular fact as it truly is, independent of that.

01:21:49

And the autonomous man thinks that he can get along quite well in the world with regards to knowledge, science, and all these other intellectual activities.

01:21:57

He can get along fine without considering the God who is the ground and foundation of those things. The presuppositionalist

01:22:03

Bonson, Dr. Lyle has beautifully done this in his books as well, have pointed out that neutrality is a myth.

01:22:10

No one is neutral. And the God whom the unbeliever says he doesn't know exists is this very same

01:22:16

God that is revealed to us in scripture, most explicitly in Romans chapter one, that all men know that this God exists and they're without excuse.

01:22:22

And so the job of the apologist is to bring out the knowledge of God that is inherent within all men.

01:22:29

And we do that by engaging in apologetics in a way that is consistent with God's revelation and what it says about the unbeliever.

01:22:39

And that's what the presuppositionalist seeks to do. That's what Dr. Greg Bonson did beautifully in his debates.

01:22:45

And I think it is a methodology that is consistent and derives from scripture.

01:22:51

God is not in the doc. He is not the one that's under trial. We are, as Dr. Lyle said.

01:22:57

And so we want to be very careful, and I'll close with this, these two twin intellectual poisons that is assumed in the

01:23:04

God, in the God is in the doc phraseology. Autonomy and neutrality.

01:23:10

And we do not want to allow the unbeliever to hide in his self -proclaimed autonomy and neutrality.

01:23:17

Well, thank you, Graham Dugas. And thank you also for founding the

01:23:23

Bonson Project. And again, the website is bonsonproject .com

01:23:30

bonsonproject .com B -A -H -N -S -E -N project .com

01:23:36

And explore that website, find out how you could benefit from it, and also how you could support it with your finances.

01:23:44

A very worthy cause to make available the teachings of Dr. Bonson to the general public for free.

01:23:53

So remember that website, write it down, visit it often. bonsonproject .com

01:24:01

And going back to our theme for today, our specific theme, getting down and dirty, apologetics for everyone.

01:24:10

I'd like to start with that word everyone in regard to the youth.

01:24:18

Both of you are those that have a ministry that reaches out to both young and old alike.

01:24:29

Obviously, many young people are fascinated with science.

01:24:34

They are fascinated by astronomy. They are fascinated by dinosaurs, especially if you're a boy.

01:24:45

Dr. Lyle, we'll start with you. I can remember when I had Colonel Jeffrey Williams, who is a

01:24:55

Christian astronaut on my program. And Colonel Williams was on the program and we had children from kindergarten through the eighth grade,

01:25:14

I think, or maybe even through the senior year of high school. I think that's what it was, all over the United States, send in questions to Colonel Jeffrey Williams.

01:25:24

They were utterly fascinated. There were far too many questions that came in that we could possibly have time to ask.

01:25:33

But how do you take some of the great themes of the

01:25:39

Christian faith and present them to children without dumbing them down too much or at all?

01:25:51

Obviously, there's going to be different ways of communicating to very, very tiny children, preschoolers and so on, than teenagers.

01:26:01

But I think far too often, evangelicals, not only do they dumb things down for grown adults, but they go way too overboard when it comes to children.

01:26:16

If you could just continue from there, and if you can, in any way, glean from your presuppositionalism and even anything you've learned from Dr.

01:26:25

Bonson that might have a connection to that. Sure. One thing that I learned when

01:26:31

I was in grad school, I was very interested in teaching. Most people go to grad school to get their PhD and do research.

01:26:38

I wanted to do some research, but I wanted to teach a lot. So I took a class on how to be a better teacher. And one of the things that was presented to me, and it stuck with me, is this truth that will help you be a better teacher if you recognize two things.

01:26:51

One, people are less knowledgeable than you think. And two, people are more intelligent than you think.

01:27:00

And it's very profound, because there's a tendency to think, especially if you're a specialist, you know, I've got my specialty in astrophysics, and if I'm going to present something, it's tempting to me to say, do

01:27:10

I need to define that term? Surely people know what that means. No, you better define it, because they probably haven't.

01:27:15

If it's in your area of expertise, they probably haven't heard of that. And then there's a tendency to think, well, boy, if they don't know what that is, they must not be very intelligent at all.

01:27:22

No, they've just not heard it before. It hasn't been defined for them, because you feel different than theirs. And I find that this works even with youngsters.

01:27:32

People, I'm often astonished at how even children can follow a fairly sophisticated argument as long as it's explained carefully, as long as you define all your terms.

01:27:43

And so I've often encouraged people to say, you know, I don't think I can teach presuppositional apologetics to children.

01:27:49

Yes, you can. I've done it. And granted, the way you're going to explain things might be a little different.

01:27:55

It might be less precise. That's the nature of things. When we first teach children about atoms, we don't teach them about the particle -wave duality, complex things that you'd learn in quantum mechanics.

01:28:06

We say, well, they're like little balls that are made up of everything, and they kind of stick together and so on. And that's an imprecise, but it's close to the reality as their mind is able to grasp at that point.

01:28:18

And so likewise with little children, I can say, now, how would it make sense for our mind, our ability to think, if our mind is just an accident?

01:28:28

That's like spilling milk over and expecting the spill to, you know, be able to think. Now, that doesn't make any sense, does it?

01:28:34

Now, little children can get that. They can understand that. I remember one time in one of Bonson's lectures where he was presenting apparently to a small class.

01:28:42

I often wished I could be part of one of those classes. But in any case, one of the girls in the class said, you know,

01:28:48

I don't think I can do this. You know, this is too scholarly. This is too intellectual for me.

01:28:54

And Bonson very graciously said, well, I think you can. And, you know, here's how you do it. He kind of stepped her through it. Anybody can do this, really, as long as you have any kind of, you know,

01:29:03

I suppose there are people that have a severe mental deficiency that might not be able to do it. But in terms of ordinary people, yes, you can do this.

01:29:11

You can point out that unless the universe is the way the Bible says it is, nothing would really make sense.

01:29:17

And as people get a little bit older, get more education, you can talk about it in more technical terms. You can talk about epistemology.

01:29:24

How do we know what we know? You can talk about justification. How is it that beliefs are justified? The fact that no belief can ultimately be justified apart from the biblical

01:29:32

God. But at a younger level, you're just going to avoid those words. But the same concepts are there.

01:29:40

I, you know, the ministry that I'm in, I mainly focus kind of on college students.

01:29:47

That's kind of my target audience. But that doesn't mean I can't come down or go up depending on the person that I'm speaking with.

01:29:54

I used to teach a class on apologetics to a group of teenagers. They were just usually seniors in high school or had just graduated.

01:30:02

And it was a one week class. That's all I had was one week. But I had, you know, like three or four hours a day.

01:30:08

By the end of the week, they got it. So, you know, don't tell me teenagers can't get this stuff. They can. And it's very encouraging to me too because I would give them a test.

01:30:16

I would bring up questions that skeptics would pose, arguments that skeptics would pose. And it was just a delight to see them demolish those arguments and to do so with the humble boldness that comes in the knowledge that we're made in God's image.

01:30:30

So, yeah, it can be done. It can be done for different age groups, certainly. And Eli, when

01:30:35

I saw you speak at Hope Reform Baptist Church for the conference that they had on the five points of Calvinism, and you were giving your presentation on limited atonement,

01:30:46

I couldn't help but constantly have in my mind that you have combined the necessary elements of not dumbing down the subject at all.

01:30:59

You treated the subject very seriously, but at the same time, you were entertaining. I have to be careful with that word because there is far too much entertaining in sermons,

01:31:09

I believe, in our day and age. But you were giving a lecture. It wasn't a sermon.

01:31:15

And I think that there is a different place for entertainment as long as you're not dumbing down or even eradicating the biblical truth and deep truths that require reflection and so on.

01:31:36

And you just, I think, masterfully balanced those two because I think that whether you were eight years old or 88 years old, to use a tired phrase, you would have been riveted to what you were saying, especially if you had interest in the things of God.

01:31:56

And I know that you are a school teacher, at least you have been a school teacher as a part of your resume.

01:32:05

So tell us about that same thing, about how to reach the hearts of the young without insulting their intelligence, as Jason was really just alluding to, by assuming or presuming that they're far less intelligent or able to grasp what you're saying as many people might wrongly think.

01:32:30

Yeah, it very much resonated with what Dr. Lyle said with regards to people don't know as much as you think they do, but people know more than you often think they do.

01:32:41

I've worked with kids for a very long time, from elementary to middle school to high school. The past 10 years,

01:32:48

I've taught middle school, high school. I've taught apologetics at a Christian private school. These things can be taught in a way that young people can grasp.

01:32:58

And you use the word entertainment. I have no problem with the word entertainment. The issue becomes when it is entertainment for the sake of entertainment.

01:33:06

I think entertainment can be a tool if your broader mission is to use entertainment so as the important concept, the content is able to be remembered.

01:33:23

And I found that the use of humor and just really connecting with people on a kind of a, hey,

01:33:31

I'm just a normal guy kind of level, I think resonates with a lot of people and helps them make the information more practical.

01:33:38

So there are a couple of things that you need to do also. You need to be in touch with your current broader culture so as to make relevant the information that you are conveying, whether it's about limited atonement or apologetics and things like that.

01:33:53

I find this is a problem with a lot of preachers and teachers, especially at the college level.

01:33:58

And of course, this is, I'm generalizing here, but you could have a professor who knows his content very well, but when you become a teacher in a middle school and high school and you go to college for this, you don't just need to master your content.

01:34:12

You take separate courses that teach you how to teach middle school and high school classes.

01:34:20

And a lot of professors know their content, but are not very good at actually teaching that content to a specific dynamic and a specific group.

01:34:32

And so again, that's not always the case, but you need to bring those things together that preaching the word of God isn't preaching the word of God, of course, but there is a way that you need to connect with your audience.

01:34:42

Jesus did this beautifully. He was able to take things that were relevant, whether it was agricultural or whatever, and he was able to make that connection.

01:34:50

And like fashion, when you're teaching apologetics, define your terms, get the point that you want to get across, and then make a relevant application so folks can see how this is important to them in the here and the now.

01:35:04

And so if you're able to do that, and it takes practice, but if you're able to do that, anyone could learn this stuff.

01:35:10

I mean, look at 1 Peter 3, verse 15, which is the kind of main verse that we use for apologetics.

01:35:15

I mean, the command to always be ready. Peter wasn't talking to a bunch of scholars.

01:35:21

He was talking to the average person. I mean, if you think about it, when we're commanded to defend the faith, it seems that the scripture is inferring that number one, the

01:35:30

Bible presupposes its own defensibility, and it presupposes that the word of God, the faith once for all delivered, sufficiently equips the believers to engage the task that's commanded, and that people are able to understand and do this.

01:35:46

And so if the Bible assumes that we are able to apprehend this, then I believe we're able to apprehend this, whether you're young, whether you're old, but I think people need to understand also the importance of it.

01:35:59

I think you made reference to that talk on limited atonement, and you found that it was entertaining as well as informative.

01:36:08

And the reason why I tend to try to be entertaining is because I'm actually excited about the content.

01:36:15

And I think it's really - That was very clear. That was extremely evident, palpably exciting, and it was contagious.

01:36:25

And I appreciate that because I do intentionally try to do that because I don't see how you can speak of the resurrection of Jesus, the fact that we could have union with God, all these -

01:36:36

I can't possibly understand how someone could preach about that in a bland and uninteresting way.

01:36:43

I mean, I don't know about you, that gets me excited. And so I want to allow the reality of these truths to spill over out of the way that I teach so that it becomes contagious to the listeners.

01:36:54

I think with the content and our conviction about the content is part of the tool in conveying the content to the listener.

01:37:02

And when you do that with young people, when they see that you're excited and you really believe what you're saying, people tend to latch on a lot more and remember much easily.

01:37:12

At least that's my experience. In fact, there were moments during that lecture where you were the perfect amalgamation of Cornelius Van Til and Jerry Lewis.

01:37:26

But once again, I have to - I know that there are probably some reformed, starchy, stoic reformed folks getting angry at what

01:37:36

I'm saying. This wasn't a sermon. It wasn't a more solemn moment of presenting the word of God.

01:37:42

It was a lecture. So I think that there are times and places for that. Like, for instance -

01:37:49

Thank you for that, by the way. In fact, afterwards, I mentioned that very thing to some people who were there in the church that day.

01:37:57

And they said, that's it! I was trying to put my finger on it. That's what you just said. It's perfect. It's a perfect description.

01:38:05

We're going to our final break right now. And if anybody wants to join us, now would be the time to do it because we are running out of time.

01:38:12

So send us an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:38:22

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away.

01:38:28

We'll be right back with Jason Lyle and Eli Ayala. Was your business shut down during the

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01:49:08

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, and this is the final segment of today's interview with Dr. Jason Lyle and Eli Ayala as we pay tribute during our five -day tribute to the late

01:49:22

Dr. Greg L. Bonson. This is day number four of the five -day tribute on this program.

01:49:29

And today we are highlighting the sub -theme, if you will, getting down and dirty apologetics for everyone.

01:49:40

And if you have a question, send it in as quickly as you can because we are rapidly running out of time.

01:49:47

It's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

01:49:53

Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

01:49:59

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal, private matter. We do have a very loyal listener to this show who's also a faithful financial supporter of the show,

01:50:09

Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina. This is a great show, Chris. I know that Dr.

01:50:14

Sperl and Dr. Gerstner did use presuppositional apologetics.

01:50:21

I'm not sure why he said that. Maybe he means they unconsciously used it because they were both vocally and in writing opposed to it, or at least in disagreement with much of it.

01:50:33

But he says, I was wondering why someone, why would someone not start with the

01:50:40

Holy Scriptures? That seems to me would be the logical conclusion as a

01:50:46

Christian. I guess what he means by that is to start with the Holy Scriptures. So, Dr.

01:50:51

Lyle? I think the reason people feel that they can't do that is because they feel that that would be circular reasoning in a vicious way.

01:51:02

I think it would be the fallacy of begging the question because the very question at issue is the veracity of Scriptures ultimately.

01:51:09

That's our ultimate disagreement with the unbelievers. We believe the Bible is true, and what it says in the

01:51:14

Unbeliever holds that at least some sections of the Bible, or perhaps all of it, is false. And so people say, well, how can

01:51:20

I start with the very thing I'm trying to prove? And I even remember, I have a clip somewhere of,

01:51:26

I think it was Sean McDowell saying to his audience, now, when you're arguing for the truth of the

01:51:31

Bible, what's the one thing you can't use in the Bible? And the whole congregation shouts out, the Bible! And think about the logic of that.

01:51:39

Think about the logic of that. If somebody said, I don't believe that words exist. Okay, now what am

01:51:45

I going to do? Am I going to say, well, I can't use words then, can I? Well, of course I can.

01:51:50

And I can point out that his standard is absurd because he, in fact, used words to tell me that he doesn't believe in words.

01:51:56

So just because somebody has an absurd standard, just because they don't believe the Bible doesn't mean that you shouldn't.

01:52:03

Don't embrace the ridiculous standard of the unbeliever. Rather, expose it as ridiculous.

01:52:09

And anytime you're tempted to leave the Bible out of the discussion, I want you to remember that analogy of the person who says,

01:52:16

I don't believe in words. And think, now, would I try to make an argument without using words? Well, that wouldn't even make any sense with it.

01:52:23

You see, ultimately, things like logic by which we make arguments, science, even ethical claims, these all are based, all these issues would make no sense apart from the

01:52:35

Christian worldview. And what I like to do is to show people that. To show people that, well, actually, in your heart of hearts, you do know the biblical

01:52:43

God. The Bible says that. Romans 1, 18 through 20, God's made himself inescapably known, so that when you look out to creation, it's obvious that God exists, and even some of his characteristics.

01:52:55

And so when I encounter an apologetic situation, I don't pretend that the believer's stated profession is true, that, well,

01:53:05

I believe in God if I've been shown enough evidence, I believe in the Bible if I've been shown enough evidence. No, the

01:53:11

Bible says you've already been shown enough evidence. You're suppressing the truth and unrighteousness.

01:53:17

And I do this graciously. A lot of times when I teach the topic, I'll give a very blunt answer, because I want people to understand the principle.

01:53:24

But I do this very graciously, but I'll point out, well, with all respect, the Bible says you do know God, and the fact is, it's obvious that you know

01:53:32

God because of the way you behave. So no, I'm not going to leave the Bible out of the discussion. But you can see why people would be inclined to do that.

01:53:38

They think that it's circular reasoning, but the fact is, it's not a vicious circle. The Christian worldview, starting with the

01:53:44

Bible, is what makes knowledge possible. And so it's impossible to leave that out of the discussion and be rationally consistent if you're a

01:53:50

Christian. And Eli? Yeah, well, I think

01:53:56

I would agree wholeheartedly with everything Dr. Lyle just said, just to add just a little piece here, is that when we're arguing for our ultimate authorities, there's going to be some circularity by necessity, right?

01:54:08

If the Bible is my ultimate authority, I cannot demonstrate the truth of the Bible by appealing to an authority more ultimate than it.

01:54:16

Or if I did that, then the thing that I'm appealing to to validate the Bible is my ultimate authority, and then the

01:54:22

Bible would not be my ultimate authority. So there are forms of circular reasoning that are fallacious, but when you are dealing with ultimate issues, ultimate standards, you're going to be necessarily circular, and it is the kind of circularity that is unavoidable.

01:54:39

I mean, you don't close your eyes to demonstrate the reliability of your eyes. You need to... We use our eyes to demonstrate its reliability.

01:54:46

We use logic to demonstrate the validity of logic. We use reason to demonstrate the validity of reason.

01:54:52

So when we're dealing with ultimate criterion, then yes, there's a sense in which it's circular, but not fallaciously circular.

01:54:59

You know, Jason, when you were commenting about... You've already heard enough of the biblical truth that you are responsible to respond accordingly.

01:55:13

I couldn't help but think of the rich man in Lazarus. When the rich man is in Hades, and he asks

01:55:29

Abraham to warn his brothers about what torment awaits them, and Abraham says, they have

01:55:47

Moses and the prophets, let them hear them. But the rich man said, no, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.

01:55:57

But he said to them, if they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded, even if someone rises from the dead.

01:56:05

Yeah. So it's interesting how the word of God is even put in far higher priority in supremacy over an enormous miracle, a mind -blowing miracle like a resurrected person.

01:56:21

Warning them. That's right. I mean, resurrection, that's the best evidence you could think of, and yet the word of God is superior to that.

01:56:29

If people are not convinced by the word of God, they won't be persuaded that one rises from the dead. And that was borne out in Christ's ministry in Matthew, I think it's 28, 17, where they saw the resurrected

01:56:39

Christ, they worshiped him, but some doubted. There were some people who stood in the presence of the resurrected

01:56:44

Jesus and still doubted because they had a presupposition that dead people don't come back to life. And evidence isn't going to convince you otherwise unless you're willing to consider scriptures.

01:56:55

Yeah, even though Lazarus, if he rose from the dead and went to warn this man's brothers, it also shows, in my opinion, clearly the doctrine of election, unconditional election, because if a human being is not regenerate, even if Lazarus showed up and warned you about hell that awaits you if you don't repent, you're not going to believe him, in a saving way anyway.

01:57:30

Chris, that's funny that you brought that verse up because I debated a well -known atheist on YouTube, folks can find it on YouTube, but his name is

01:57:38

Tom Jump. And when we got to really the heart of his presupposition, he admitted towards the end, the latter part of the debate, that even if it could be demonstrated that Jesus was raised from the dead, it wouldn't prove

01:57:52

Christianity's true, and it wouldn't prove that God is omnipotent. You see, he actually isolated the resurrection from the broader worldview implications, because it's not an issue of just bare evidence, that there are broader issues in play here, worldview issues that we need to address.

01:58:13

So yeah, it's not just simply give me evidence and I'll believe. I've actually debated an atheist that blatantly said if he rose from the dead, that doesn't prove anything.

01:58:22

So it's not just crazy people out there, there are people who blatantly say these sorts of things. Well, we are out of time, and Eli, remind our listeners how they can hear your interview with Dr.

01:58:33

Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary tonight. Yes, on the

01:58:38

YouTube channel Revealed Apologetics, I'm going live with Dr. Costa at 9 p .m.

01:58:44

Eastern, it is a part two response to Hank Hanegraaff's position on Eastern Orthodoxy.

01:58:50

I had Hank on a few days ago, and Tony provided a one -part response, and tonight's his second part, and so I'm looking forward to having that discussion with him.

01:59:00

And the Biblical Science Institute, founded by our guest

01:59:05

Dr. Jason Lyle, can be found at biblicalscienceinstitute .com,

01:59:12

biblicalscienceinstitute .com. Don't forget about the Bonson Project, bonsonproject, that's

01:59:18

B -A -H -N -S -E -N .com, bonsonproject,

01:59:24

B -A -H -N -S -E -N .com. I want to thank you both for doing such a masterful job as my guest today.

01:59:31

I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write in questions. Don't forget about tomorrow when we have

01:59:38

Paul Vigiano and Bill Shishko on day number five of our five -day tribute to the late

01:59:44

Dr. Greg L. Bonson. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater