October 29, 2020 Show with Dr. Jason Lisle & Eli Ayala on “Gettin’ Down-n-Dirty: Apologetics for Everyone” (Day 4 of a 5-Day Tribute to Dr. Greg L. Bahnsen)

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Opens and the Tribute to Greg L. Bahnsen Begins

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 29th day of October 2020.

And today is day number four of our five-day tribute to the late Dr. Greg L. Bonson, who came into this world in 1948 and departed this world to enter into eternity with Christ in 1995. And I've been thrilled to be conducting this five-day tribute, and I give a hearty thanks, a very heartfelt thanks, to my dear old friend, and I'm not speaking of his age, although he is older than me, Bill Shishko, pastor of the Haven Orthodox Presbyterian Church, currently meeting in Bohemia, Long Island, New York, who arranged this entire week of guests and subtopics under the umbrella of a tribute to the late Dr. Greg L. Bonson.

And today, for day number four, we are featuring two guests, both of whom I have previously interviewed. First, we have Dr. Jason Lyle joining us again. He is a Christian astrophysicist, a popular speaker and author, and founder of Biblical Science Institute, also known as BSI.

And it's great to have you back, Dr. Jason Lyle.

Well, thank you. Thank you for having me on.

And we also have joining us someone who is an up-and-coming apologist that I actually believe, with no exaggeration or flattery intended, I believe he's going to be a household name in the apologetics realm over the next several years.

I'm very impressed with this brother. His name is Eli Ayala, and he is the host of Revealed Apologetics. And it's great to have you joining us as well for day number four of the tribute to Dr. Bonson.

It is an honor and a pleasure to be back on, so thank you so much for having me.

Biblical Science Institute, Revealed Apologetics, and the Bonson Tribute

And briefly, Dr. Jason Lyle, tell us something about Biblical Science Institute.

Well, it's totally unique, but great. And also just to help...

Great. BiblicalScienceInstitute .com. And I'm sure that you agree that it can be annoying even from your own camp of presuppositionalists on occasion. This may be a minority of folks in the presuppositional camp, but once in a while you hear from some of them who have very demeaning things to say about creation science ministries in general.

And I think they go overboard mocking the idea of putting any importance into the fossil record for dinosaurs, things like that. You know what I'm saying?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And again, you need to have a high...

Now, when you say that many presuppositionalists disagreed with Bonson on that, are you speaking of the young earth position?

Yeah, there are... Right. I recall I didn't want it to be...

Amen. Amen. Yeah, the reason why I seemed a bit surprised is that every presuppositionalist that I know personally is a young earth creationist. So, that took me a bit...

Yeah, most are. And I think that goes a long way if you have a high view of Scripture, and if you've studied the issue...

Great. Well, once again, the website for the Biblical Science Institute is biblicalscienceinstitute .com, biblicalscienceinstitute .com. And Eli Ayala, tell us something about Revealed Apologetics.

Ah, yeah. Well, I am the founder of Revealed Apologetics. It is a very generous brother. Apologetics in general, and I engage in... And I'd be congenital as he is, he definitely came with guns...

So, you just go to youtube .com and then type in Revealed Apologetics in the search engine.

That's right. And just the idea is side by RTS, so there's a lot of information.

Great. And I happen to be, even though I am a young earth creationist, I happen to be very close friends with somebody who works for Hugh Ross. In fact, he is one of my oldest Christian friends. And again, I'm not referring to his age, I'm referring to the number of years I've known him.

I've known him since the late 1980s, and I'm speaking of Kenneth R. Samples, who used to be on the panel of the Bible Answer Man with Hank Hanegraaff before he started to go solo on his show, and before he became an Eastern Orthodox member.

And Ken and I get along very well because we agree on the vast majority of things. And typically, I don't have him even address the issue of old earth when he's on my show because his field is not science.

So, when he works for Hugh Ross, he doesn't really address the scientific aspect of things. Also, I want to make sure that our listeners, and although I'll be repeating this website throughout the broadcast, but I want to make sure that they have the website for the Bonson Project, which we will be promoting and discussing this week.

And the Bonson Project website is bonsonproject .com. I have to make sure that I say it right this time. Yesterday, I goofed and said .org, but it is bonsonproject .com. And Dr. Lyle, if you could tell us in summary form, as we have been doing every day, because there are people who are just tuning in for the first time each day and they haven't heard the previous broadcast, could you tell us in a summary form who Dr. Greg L. Bonson was and how you first.

Became aware of his teaching and his ministry? Yes. And I heard that debate, the opposite, against the Bible says this. And now he doesn't just, it would be ridiculous to try to argue from any other standard.

And yet, he mentioned that information to the creation science community, of which I'm a part, and say the scientific evidence presented, that is powerful, and I dare say irrefutable. I wrote a book then called The Ultimate Proof of Creation, where I take the method that I learned from Dr. Lyle Bonson and I apply it to defending, in particular, action to Bonson and about all of his people out there who want to get a very biblical way of defending the faith.

And Eli, tell us in the same way how you came to discover.

The life, legacy, and teaching of Dr. Bonson and how it affected or impacted your own life, your own thought process, your own ministry, etc.

Yeah, well, I've always been an inquisitive person. I grew up in a Christian home on Sunday, and I was always...within my family, we're always used to call myself out why we believed specific things that were...I was always asking questions.

And when I left high school, supposed to be a class, but instead of talking about the Bible as literature, the teacher would take the contradictions. And, of course, growing up in my Christian bubble, I had never studied, in which I pretended to be an atheist.

I studied some of the arguments against the Bible, apologetics in general. The DJ couldn't...gave me my iPod back. Other than just bad choice of music, I found other audio...for a little while, but then I found within the debate between Greg...usually the surprise moment, when you hear Dr. Bonson defend the Christian faith...deity and hopefully find our way to the Christian God.

And so, of course, as you said, Bonson wasn't like that. He was specifically debating for the...I never really...and then you move on...very biblically latched me on to the method, hopefully getting to it later, because I...introduction to Bonson was through my brother-in-law putting the audio files into my iPod.

After that, our family van became a seminary on wheels. Every time we drive down to Virginia to visit family, it's as though Dr. Bonson has never been the same.

Praise God. Let me ask you both a question. We, I'm sure, both have heroes of the faith that were not presuppositionalists. I'm assuming you do. Maybe you don't. But I have two that were classic apologists or even evidentialists that are two of my greatest heroes of the faith, two of my heroes that had an enormous impact on my growth in the understanding of biblical theology, especially as a new Christian.

But it continued throughout my life and continues to this day, even though both of these men are in heaven. Their writings and the recordings, both in audio and video of them, continue to bless my life.

But I'll tell you who they are, the late Dr. R .C. Sproul and Dr. John Gerstner. In fact, they wrote a book together that is critical of presuppositional apologetics. Do you think that those who are, especially when they're thoroughly Reformed and they have had an outstanding impact on the body of Christ, a powerful impact on the body of Christ, do you think that unconsciously that they are not truly consistent in their apologetic or worldview when they claim to be in opposition to presuppositionalism?

I don't know if I made sense there, but Jason, if we could start with you and.

If you need any clarification, I can give it. Yeah, I think the worldview that we present, and likewise even our worldview, I think that my certainty that I don't have everything to appreciate the things that people get that are real apologists.

I remember when I was quite young, I read a book on information and it's very helpful information. I still use it.

And in fact, you, Eli, just mentioned moments ago that you've had Frank Turek on your program, and I hope Frank, if he ever hears this, isn't insulted by this, but I mean this actually as a compliment, that I think that he has been so inconsistent at times that he sounds at times like a presuppositionalist, even though at other times he makes it clear that he is not.

But if you could even respond to that and anything else that I said about the blessed inconsistency of Christians that have a good impact or even a powerful impact on the body of Christ and on the world.

Is that for me or Dr. Lyle? That's for you, Eli, because you said before that you had interviewed Frank Turek on the program, on your program, and I've had Frank on my show and I've moderated a debate that he had with an atheist, been at speaking engagements with him, and although I have a number of disagreements with him, he is an old earther and so on, but at times when he is at his best, he seems to be inconsistent with some of his views.

But anyway, if you could follow that train of thought.

I invited him onto my show and he said, listen, hey, he says, I used to engage in those debates with great gusto. I think I know what he's saying there, and someone like Dr. Turek. We do have commitments.

We worship God and we cry in the midst of in-depth relationship with the God we know that exists. But because of our theological commitments and our methodologies that we've adopted, we don't argue that way all the time.

The God we know that's there will pray to the God we know that's there, but in debate will argue about the God that most likely exists. You see, so subsistency, commitments, and our relationship with God, there's an inconsistency between that in the context of apologetics, and that is, in my view, due to the fact that not many people are conscious that their apologetic methodology must flow from a consistent theology.

Theologically, these guys are all gung-ho, you know, God is, you know, I know the God that I'm reflecting upon. But then, because of an inconsistency in their apologetic methodology, they don't argue for that God that they know exists.

That's a better consistency. That doesn't mean we can't learn my holy trinity on my thinking. I've learned so much about evolutionally, even in the midst of my strong theological and philosophical, and was keen to say that God can strike a blow with a crooked broken people to, you know, affect change for the gospel, be as faithful as we.

Possibly can be, and pray that... In fact, according to, or to recite your quote of John Frame, that every presuppositionalist at heart is an evidentialist, I've heard a number of presuppositionalists say that there is nothing but evidence.

So, that adds some... In fact, Eli, can you pick up where you left off, because we have to go to our first break. Just remember where you're leaving off there. And don't go away, folks, if you want to join us in the conversation with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com.

Give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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I have to tell you, one of the better interviewers out there, and I've been doing this for more than 30 years. Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.

We're in good shape. I'm glad you said it on the air, so I don't have to brag about myself. Tell your friends and loved ones about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, airing live Monday through Friday, 4 to 6 p .m. Eastern Time, at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love, Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher McDowell.

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Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron. And while you're at it, why not call Hope Reformed Baptist Church at 631 -696 -5711 to find out how you can get a video or audio of Eli Ayala's presentation at a recent conference where I happen to be present, where Eli actually gave a masterful presentation on limited atonement, also known as definite atonement, particular redemption, and substitutionary atonement, even though Armenians are using that phrase these days to identify what they believe, but they can't be logically consistent when they do that.

But I was very blessed. In fact, someone who was involved in that conference wanted me to speak on limited atonement at something that they were doing on their program, I believe it was on their podcast, and after hearing Eli give his presentation, I said, no, I'm not going to do that.

But anyway, Eli, you were just talking about John Frame and his blessed inconsistency, if you could.

Well, just real quick, I'm actually having him on my show tonight at 9, Eastern Time.

Great.

Because I just had recently had Hank Hammond. That made me think about it as I heard him. Really, in a very helpful way, said that presuppositionalists are eminently evidentialists, and that's because we believe literally everything is evidence for God.

See, unlike many classics where they often point to both ordinary and just as much as the extraordinary things are evidence for God.

Great. We have some questions from listeners lined up here. We have, let's see here, I was just looking at it. Oh, we have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who asks, to your knowledge, do either one of you know whether or not Cornelius Van Till shared the theonomy and Christian reconstructionist views of Dr. Greg L. Bonson?

Why don't we start with Jason Lyle?

Yeah, I'm not sure. Yeah, I believe he made the full doubt, I may be mistaken,.

The theonomic position is that a presuppositional methodology is an application of Reformed theology. Some people would argue that theonomy is a consistent application of presuppositional thinking with regards to God's law and its role.

To my knowledge, I do not think he held to theonomy as Bonson did, but there are some followers of Van Till who thought that it was the illogical outflow of Van Till. Most likely won't go into that here.

Well, Ronald, maybe you'll find out when you read Van Till's Apologetic by Greg L. Bonson, because you just want it. PNR Publishing were kind enough to provide us with copies of this book that we have been giving out every day, and we need your full mailing address in Eastern Suffolk County so that our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, can ship that out to you at no cost to you and at no cost to Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio, and we thank again PNR Publishing for their generosity in providing these books.

If you want more information on PNR Publishing, go to prpbooks .com, prpbooks .com. I would ask you, though, however, to purchase anything you might see on their website from cvbbs .com, since CVBBS, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, sponsors this program, and nobody's hurt when you use them as your source for purchasing the book, because they have to purchase it from PNR Publishing.

So we hope that you enjoy that. And let's see here. We have another listener. This is an anonymous listener, and the anonymous listener says, I have been getting into hot water at the church where I am a member because I have become increasingly more fascinated and in agreement with presuppositionalism and Reformed theology.

I was wondering if either of you have any advice, and perhaps you could give advice gleaning from what Dr. Bonson might have to say, on how to respond to those who I think have misunderstandings and caricatures of both of those systems of thought, presuppositionalism and Reformed theology.

I don't want to sound like an upstart, or I don't want to sound rude, or that I'm not submissive to my elders, but at the.

Same time, if they are passing on misinformation, I think they need to be corrected. How aligned does... It's not going to be 100 side, you know, that's just a great answer when it's time to do.

That. But I know somebody might have a very important role in the church. Sure. And of course, if it is their heartfelt understanding that they eventually come to, that they have to depart, they should always do so with respect and gentleness and kindness, and so on.

And Eli,.

You have any thoughts of your own? Yeah, well, just to piggyback off what you said, which says our presuppositional strategy, I think we have to be able to tolerate and tread those waters very carefully.

Well, Anonymous, if you provide for us, of course, off the air, your full name.

And your mailing address, you have won a copy of another book we've been giving away every day, Against All Opposition by Greg L. Bonson. This is a transcribed version of lectures given by Dr. Bonson that American Vision has compiled.

And I hope that you are blessed by this book, Against All Opposition, Defending the Christian Worldview, which is the subtitle. And we are happy to share that with you. If anybody wants to find out more about this book, go to AmericanVision .org, AmericanVision .org.

And those are all the books we have to give away today, because we are spreading them out throughout the week. And so we thank you, Anonymous, for being the final winner of the day. I have another question that I'm going to read to you that I want you to answer when we come back, as we are going to be having to go to our midway break any moment.

But we have actually the man who is the founder of the Bonson Project, Graham Dugas, who I interviewed on Tuesday. And Graham Dugas wants both of you to comment about God in the Dock, and if you could respond to that question when we return.

And folks, this is our longer than normal break. I hope that you are patient with us, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show, because the FCC requires of them to localize Iron Sharp and Zion Radio and all their programming to Lake City, Florida.

So they air their own public service announcements and all other local things during the middle break, while we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials. So please use this time wisely. Write down as much of the information as you can, provided by our advertisers, so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize our advertisers, which will subsequently hopefully keep them happy enough to continue being our advertisers, which will, in a domino effect, hopefully result in us, Iron Sharp and Zion Radio, remaining on the air for a longer future, because we absolutely depend upon our advertisers and our generous donors to exist.

Some of my listeners have complained about the length of the ad breaks and the number of advertisers that we have. But folks, this show ain't going to exist without our advertisers, I'm sorry to say. Well, I'm actually not sorry.

I'm very grateful to God that these advertisers think highly enough of Iron Sharp and Zion Radio that they invest money in keeping it in existence. So when you next time you have a complaint in your mind about it, just remember they are keeping the show on the air.

So write down the information provided by our advertisers and also send in your questions to Dr. Jason Lyle and Eli Ayala about Greg Bonson and about our sub-theme that we are going to be addressing when we come back from the break.

And that sub-theme is Getting Down and Dirty, Apologetics for Everyone. We're going to start emphasizing that in the second half of the program. So send in your questions to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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God in the Dock, Neutrality, and Autonomy

James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the Dividing.

Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York.

I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my New York debates.

I cannot hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the holy scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co-elder, Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net, that's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711, that's 631 -696 -5711.