October 16, 2017 Show with Kurt M. Smith on “George Whitfield”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 16th day of October 2017, and I'm so delighted to have back on the program somebody who has become one of my favorite guests,

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Kurt M. Smith, who is an author, and he's also pastor of Providence Reformed Baptist Church of Pine Mountain, Alabama.

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Today we are going to be discussing a very important figure in church history, George Whitefield, and this is largely because our guest

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Kurt M. Smith is presently writing a primer on the life and legacy of George Whitefield proclaiming

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Christ as a Calvinistic evangelist, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Kurt M.

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Smith. Thanks, Chris. It's an honor and privilege to be back with you, brother. And if anybody would like to join us on the air, let me give you my email address where you can send questions for Kurt M.

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Smith. It's ChrisArntzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com,

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and please always give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

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USA. Well, once again, why don't you tell our listeners who have not heard you yet on this program something about Providence Reformed Baptist Church of Pine Mountain, Alabama.

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Well, Providence Reformed Baptist Church is a new work, a new church that was started over a year ago.

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In fact, yesterday we had what we called our reaffirmation

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Sunday where we actually reaffirmed and publicly re -signed our covenant together as members of the church, and I also even re -signed my commitment and my calling to the body there as an under -shepherd to Christ's flock.

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We are just very, very privileged, joyful, humbled that the

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Lord has been so pleased to put this church together, and just very thankful that such a work like this is actually in Alabama.

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Now, is that something you do every year? Yeah. Yesterday was our very first annual event of that.

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Last year, we actually had what would be our constituting service and my installation as the pastor.

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And so this year, we came back same time, but this time publicly reaffirming and re -signing our covenant together.

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That is something that will be yearly, and as I explained to everyone yesterday, what this helps to remind us of as church members of Providence Reformed Baptist Church is what membership really means here.

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It's not just that you've joined a club. There's a real commitment here, and it's a commitment that is based on the standard of God's Word and what

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God's Word calls Christians to do and how they treat one another and how they're to live together in a sacred assembly as a local church.

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Great. Was that an idea that you came up with, or did you know that another church did that kind of a yearly recommitment?

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That's an interesting tradition. Yeah. I had—I'm trying to think of where—I mean, it's not—the idea is not original with me.

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I know of other Reformed Baptist churches that do either the exact same thing or something very similar to it.

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It was a practice that I had started in a Reformed Baptist church that I had pastored for 10 years in Georgia, and so—but

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I know it's not original with me just because there are other Reformed churches that do that.

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Great. Well, we'll be giving our listeners contact information later on in the program for your congregation, especially if anybody in your area wants to either visit, perhaps even join that church, or if folks listening are going to be visiting your area on vacation or something from out of state.

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But right now, the website is prbc1689 .org. That's P -R -B -C for Providence Reformed Baptist Church 1689, for the

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London Baptist Confession of Faith, dot org. And Whitfield is a really fascinating character from church history.

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I love reading about Whitfield, and he blows away the stereotype of Reformed or Calvinist Christians being dry, dead, lifeless, and passionless.

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The man was a very zealous preacher, known a lot for his outdoor preaching, and captivated the heart and mind of Benjamin Franklin, I know.

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And Franklin, from all we know from history, was not a genuine believer, was not a genuine, regenerate man, but he was still fascinated by Whitfield.

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And I can recall him giving some astronomical distance in measurement where Whitfield could be heard outside.

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Do you happen to recall the distance where Benjamin Franklin was standing, where he could still hear

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Whitfield? Yes. Yeah, I do. I do recall that story. Yeah, Benjamin Franklin had basically measured the distance by the amount of people who could hear

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Whitfield very clearly. And Whitfield's estimate was that it was like 30 ,000 people.

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30 ,000 people gathered from where Whitfield stood in his little makeshift pulpit that he carried with him all the way back to the very last group of people in the very back.

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And Franklin had said that it was measured out to be 30 ,000 people. He said he was amazed because no one in that day had heard anyone with those kind of rhetorical powers.

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And he said you could hear the man just as clearly that far back.

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So really incredible. Well, Whitfield has been called the greatest evangelist since the

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Apostle Paul. And E .C. Dargan said of Whitfield, in his history of preaching, the history of preaching since the

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Apostles does not contain a greater or worthier name than that of George Whitfield. And Charles Spurgeon said of Whitfield, I am conscious of distinct quickening whenever I turn to read

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Whitfield. He lived. Other men seemed to be only half alive. But Whitfield was all life, fire, wing, force.

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What a great comment. And Martin Lloyd Jones, more recent figure from history, 20th century figure from history, said of Whitfield, all of the men of the 18th century,

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Whitfield was the most lovable. He radiated warmth and joy. And wherever he went, he moved others to greater zeal and activity.

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Above all, he was the greatest preacher. Indeed, one can say that he was the greatest preacher that England has ever produced.

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That is quite a commendation from Martin Lloyd Jones. And I don't know if it had anything to do with the fact that Martin Lloyd Jones was also a

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Calvinist Methodist that he made that comment. I do, right. Well, yeah, could have been, but yeah.

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But I'm sure it is not far from the truth. And one of the things that, well, first of all, before I go into some of these specific questions,

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I'd like you to give some more of the background because there are people, I'm sure, who are either listening live or who will eventually be listening on the recording who don't know who

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Whitfield was. And perhaps it'd be a good idea for you to give us his history and the fact that he came out of the

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Anglican church and so on. Yeah, that's right. He lived between the years of 1714 to 1770.

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He was what people have called the lightning rod for the first great awakening in the

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American colonies in the 1740s. And he was certainly the catalyst.

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Indeed, he was the prominent leader for the evangelical awakening in Great Britain.

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When he died in 1770 at the age of 55, he had preached estimated some 30 ,000 sermons over a small span of only 34 years, averaging 60 hours a week in this labor.

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It has been estimated that during his ministry, he preached to combined audiences of over 10 million and that four -fifths of America's colonists from Georgia to New Hampshire heard him at least once, which could not be said of any other person.

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Most of his preaching was commenced in the open air with a vast array of attendees from all classes of society.

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And this is why he was called in his day the grand itinerant. But in addition to his preaching labors,

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Whitfield was the original founder of the Methodist movement in England. He also spearheaded the birth of schools and colleges.

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He established an orphanage in Savannah, Georgia, Bethsaida, which is still in existence today as a boy's home.

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And he was the key inspiration for the strong evangelistic zeal of the early Baptists in the

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South. And one of those Baptists just happens to be my fifth great -grandfather, Daniel Marshall, who actually heard

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Whitfield preach. And upon hearing Whitfield preach, Daniel Marshall was just set ablaze to go and spread the gospel with his brother -in -law,

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Shubel Stearns, throughout the Middle Colonies and Southern Colonies. And of course,

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Daniel Marshall would eventually wind up in Georgia, be planning the first continuing Baptist church there. But Daniel Marshall was just one of those many, many

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Baptists here in America that were so just taken by Whitfield's zeal and his fire and heart for spreading the gospel.

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You know, I heard a kind of a humorous quote by Whitfield.

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I'm almost positive it was Whitfield. He was somewhat lamenting that many of his converts were becoming

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Baptists because he was a paedo -Baptist. And he said something to the effect that, all my chicks are becoming ducks.

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Do you know the exact quote? I don't have the quote in front of me. Do you have the exact quote? Well, actually, that is the exact quote.

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And the reason he put it that way is because what was called the separate

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Baptist movement, which started in New England, it started during the

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First Great Awakening. It was all of these Congregationalists who, of course, were paedo -Baptists.

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And they were being greatly influenced by Whitfield's zeal and passion for Christ and the gospel.

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But at the same time, they were under Whitfield's influence to that end. They also were coming to Baptistic principles.

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And so they were leaving the paedo -Baptist faith of the Congregationalist Church there in New England, and they were becoming very principled

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Baptists, but yet maintaining the fire and zeal and fervor that they saw exemplified in Whitfield.

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So that's the reason Whitfield made that statement. Now, was he calling we who are Baptists ducks because of the fact that ducks are actually in the water?

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Yeah. Okay, that's what

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I assumed, although I didn't know that for certain. And now he, as we said, was an

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Anglican. And although the Anglican Church has been steeped in Calvinism, although it was never monolithically

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Calvinistic, and especially since you had the Anglican Church going back and forth like a pendulum depending upon who was in power, a

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Roman Catholic or a Protestant. And then you had the

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Anglican Church becoming somewhat of a hybrid to appease both sides at some points in history.

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And even today, you have a really wide spectrum of Anglicans from a

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Romish Oxford movement, Anglicans, all the way to liberal apostates. But what was the primary reasons that Whitfield was so disliked by many

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Anglicans and why he had problems himself with the Anglican Church?

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Well, the primary reason was simply the fact that when the

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Lord saved him in the spring of 1735, the very first sermon that he ever preached at St.

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Mary's Crip Church there in Gloucester, England, where he was born and raised, it was said that after his first sermon that the parson there wrote to Whitfield that 15 people had gone mad after hearing

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Whitfield's first sermon. And that was a way of saying that what Whitfield began preaching from the beginning was that you must be born again.

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And that was so repulsive to the

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Church of England, to Anglicanism in that day, in that age, because so much of the

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Church of England, the vast majority of just the whole religious culture in Great Britain was just simply dead.

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You had so many Anglican priests and bishops who were basically unconverted men, really, in all truthfulness.

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They showed no fruit of the gospel in their own lives. They became

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Anglican clergy more out of monetary reasons.

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And so no one was teaching. Certainly no one was preaching.

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In that time, in that period of history, just the central message of the gospel, no one was hearing that you must be born again.

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Because two, the other factor was that baptismal regeneration was the practice of the

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Anglican Church. And George Whitfield, he resisted that very vocally and declared in so many of his sermons, don't be counting on your baptism as having a right standing with God, as being transformed.

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That's interesting because the 39 articles of religion, the primary creed of Anglicanism, at least starting in the 17th century through even today, the more conservative

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Anglicans adhere to that. That is not a creed that endorses baptismal regeneration.

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Right. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. It is not. But the baptismal regeneration,

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I mean, that doctrine, it kept gaining more traction within the

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Church of England because in many respects, Anglicans, they did not lead the

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Roman Catholic Church wholesale. I heard many years ago that an

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Anglican is just a Roman Catholic with a top hat on. And there are many

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Calvinist Anglicans who are furious right now hearing you say that. Yeah, right, right.

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Well, you know, obviously you had a minority. You know, you had a minority of genuine, confessional, evangelical,

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Calvinistic Anglicans. And in Whitefield's day, you know, the minority was just a little tiny dot, you know, on a vast map of who they were.

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But, you know, when Whitefield began preaching, his preaching, as Arnold Dallymore, who really wrote the definitive biography on Whitefield, Dallymore said it was preaching that startled the nation.

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And that's really because of the content. The content of the preaching wasn't only that, but a large part of it, the content was declaring to the masses, you must be born again.

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And these people, this culture in Great Britain in the 18th century, they had never heard that.

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They had never heard that. And so that became very offensive to the leadership of the

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Church of England. And on top of that, George Whitefield was also publicly calling out many bishops and even the

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Archbishop Tillotson, calling them out to repent and even declaring many of them as just unconverted men.

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And so that also shut Whitefield out. But when

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Whitefield was shut out of the Church of England, as far as not being permitted, and that was not only something that happened in England, it also happened even here in America, not being permitted to preach from the pulpits of the

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Anglican churches, well, then that's when he just went into the open air. He said, you know, fine,

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I'll just go into the open air and preach to the masses. And what is so amazing about that move is that this was very unheard of in that day.

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And the results of it can only be explained as the supernatural hand of God, because this one

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Englishman goes out and begins proclaiming the gospel, and throngs and throngs, tens of thousands of people gather to hear him proclaim the gospel.

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And this is in a day that is a very spiritually dark, dark time in England's history.

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So there have been many modern historians who have tried to explain all that away and say, well, it was just Whitefield's magnanimous personality.

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It was his oratorical powers. You know, to say it was just all because of Whitefield the man.

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But no, Whitefield's personality and Whitefield's oratorical powers just could not have maintained the throngs of people that traveled for miles to hear him if they heard that he was going to be anywhere close by and maintain that from, say, the year 1738 all the way to his death in 1770.

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It takes more than great personality and a great oratory to maintain that kind of attention.

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Yeah, the Anglican Church, as I'm assuming other churches, probably especially the

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Roman Catholic Church, had a very superstitious understanding. And of course, when

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I say the Anglican Church, I don't intend to be broad -brushing, because I'm sure that wasn't universally the case.

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But they had a superstitious understanding of the only proper a way that the

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Word of God was to be declared and taught and preached was to be in the confines of a church building.

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Am I right? Yeah, yeah, that is right. That is right. Exactly. It was to many people in that day, the word they actually used was vulgar.

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You know, what Whitefield was doing was very vulgar, to be in the open air, to be preaching in the open air.

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And of course, the other term that they liked to use a lot about Whitefield, and eventually they would use it the

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Westleys and the others that followed them preaching in the open air, that they were just enthusiasts. And yet, these so -called vulgar enthusiasts, you know, were these men of God who believed the

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Bible to really be the Word of God, and they believed that men are saved by grace alone.

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But yeah, it was something that was so very distasteful and improper to your average

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Englishman of that day. Now, I don't know if they went, meaning the

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Anglican clergymen, went to the lengths of disruption for Whitefield's meetings as they did with Wesley, but I have heard from a

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Methodist minister who's now retired from the ministry, who was a frequent guest on my program.

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He was an evangelical United Methodist minister, which is extremely rare on Long Island, New York, where I'm originally from and where my show was originally broadcast every day there in Babylon, Long Island.

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Kind of an interesting name for the town. But my friend Dr. Dick Williamson, the former pastor of the

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Seaford United Methodist Church, told me that the Anglican clergy used to release bulls to trample through Wesley's open air meetings.

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Do you know if anything like that or anything similar was done to Whitefield? Whitefield, he did see a lot of harassment and persecution of that nature that was carried out by a vast group of individuals that literally were called the mob.

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And I think in particular of when Whitefield began preaching in this area called

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Moorfields, where eventually a tabernacle would actually be erected there that would become

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Whitefield's headquarters, if you will, his preaching station there in Great Britain.

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But when Whitefield first began preaching there in Moorfields, he was harassed relentlessly by the people.

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In fact, there's a very famous painting of Whitefield preaching in Moorfields.

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And in the painting, the artist has depicted the kind of harassment and persecution that Whitefield endured there while he's preaching.

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You've got individuals climbing up in trees and blowing horns at him, and you've got people throwing eggs and dead cats at him while he is in the midst of proclaiming the

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Gospel. Sounds like college students today. Yeah.

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And the more liberal universities, every time an allegedly conservative person or anybody remotely close to believing in the

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Constitution ascends to a podium at a liberal university today, that's what they're getting, typically.

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Right. Yeah. Yes. And it is definitely the same spirit. Definitely the same spirit as that.

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But again, what amazes me as I read and as I've studied the life of Whitefield for so many years is just the power of God sustaining this man, even in the midst of things like that at Moorfields.

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He was not overcome by what men or devils sought to do to him, because the

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Lord sustained him. The Lord preserved him. And the Lord just had such an immense power upon him in his preaching that even though he had eggs and raw eggs and dead cats thrown at him, there were still people that were being converted and people being drawn to hear the

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Word of Life that they've never heard before. We're going to a break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question about George Whitefield, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

28:47

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Please, as always, give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

28:58

USA. And if you have a question that involves a personal and private matter and you wish to remain anonymous, for instance, if you disagree with your own pastor on theological issues or something like that,

29:13

I can understand you wanting to remain anonymous, so you may feel free to do so. But other than a personal and private question, please always give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

29:27

USA. Don't go away. God willing, we'll be right back with Curt M. Smith right after these messages. I am

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We hope that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio blesses you for many years to come. Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune into A Visit to the

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Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the Pastor's Study, because everyone needs a pastor.

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And Pastor Bill Shishko, whose voice you just heard, is going to be my keynote speaker, not this

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Thursday, but the week after this Thursday, two Thursdays from now, October 26th from 11 am to 2 pm at the

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Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall in Carlisle, Pennsylvania for the next Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastor's Luncheon, this one in honor of Reformation Day.

35:36

This is a tradition that was begun by my first, or should I say that was first begun, a little mix up in vocabulary there, that was first begun by my late wife, my precious late wife,

35:49

Julie, back in the 1990s. And she came up with the idea, one

35:54

Christmas, and she said to me, you know, instead of you and I purchasing each other Christmas presents every year, why don't we treat your pastor friends to lunch?

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She knew that I had a lot of friends who were pastors because of my work in Christian radio, and I said that's a great idea.

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And we started doing that in the 1990s, and we did it every year until the event grew and grew to a point where I needed to get corporate sponsorship for it.

36:23

And she went home to be with the Lord in 2011, and after about a year or two after recuperating mentally after losing her,

36:36

I resumed her pastor's luncheons in her honor and also to treat men in ministry to a wonderful time of fun, food, and fellowship, absolutely free of charge.

36:50

This was her dream, her goal, where nothing would be for sale at any of these events.

36:56

There would be no hidden agenda or ulterior motive. It was purely and 100 % to treat men in ministry to a wonderful afternoon, absolutely free, where they could even leave their wallets at home and not worry about anything, not even the pressure or manipulation of trying to be involved with something like an

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Amway salesman pitch or something. This is purely a way to feed the pastors, not only physically but even spiritually, and as I said,

37:26

Bill Shishko, who is the regional home missionary for Reformation Metro New York.

37:33

He's also an adjunct faculty member for Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary and retired pastor of the

37:40

Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, Long Island, New York. He's been a dear friend of mine since the 1980s.

37:46

In fact, my precious late wife truly loved Pastor Bill, and I'm delighted that this is the first time he is going to be speaking at our luncheon.

37:56

The theme is going to be Restoring Reformational Passion. That's Thursday, October 26th, 11 a .m.

38:04

to 2 p .m. It's absolutely free of charge to any man in ministry leadership, whether you are a pastor, an elder, and I happen to believe those are two of the same office, a deacon, a parachurch leader.

38:15

Any man in leadership is welcome, absolutely free of charge. If you want to register for that, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

38:23

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It really blesses my heart to know that there are men that care that much about what we're doing here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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By the way, I think I forgot to mention a very important factor. You'll be leaving that luncheon with a very heavy sack of free books donated by major Christian publishers all over the

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United States and the United Kingdom. They've been doing that every year since we started the

39:16

Pastor's Luncheons, and they continue to do so, and I'm so delighted. The number of books that we are giving away for free continues to grow as more and more publishers want to join in on the festivities there and be a part of it.

39:31

So I look forward to receiving your registration at chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

39:37

I apologize that we cannot offer this invitation to the wives. Perhaps someday when

39:42

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is able to rent bigger facilities and get a lot more food and so on provided, perhaps we can include the wives one day.

39:54

In fact, I did have one Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastor's Luncheon where the wives were there.

40:00

That was because we were working with Holland America Cruise Lines at the time, and they allowed me to have an

40:09

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastor's Luncheon on a cruise ship, a docked cruise ship, before it made its maiden launch.

40:18

So that was the only time we were able to do that because there was plenty of room, and it was all being provided free by Holland America.

40:26

But right now it's only the men that are invited, so I hope to hear from you soon, and I look forward to seeing you

40:32

Thursday, October 26, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at the Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

40:39

Well, we are now back to our discussion with our guest Kurt M. Smith, and Kurt M.

40:45

Smith, as I mentioned at the outset of the program, has become one of my favorite of all guests here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and he is the

40:59

Pastor of Providence Reformed Baptist Church in Pine Mountain, Alabama. Today we are discussing

41:04

George Whitefield, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

41:12

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

41:18

USA. We have a listener in Slovenia, Joe, who says, Dear Brothers Chris and Kurt, thank you for affording me this great opportunity to engage with great minds on an engaging topic.

41:31

Well, one of us has a great mind, and I don't mean me. I'm not sure that's me either.

41:40

I've read that Whitefield regularly sought out opportunities to preach to slaves, and that the response was so great that some historians date the beginning of the

41:50

African American Christianity to his preaching ministry. What can you say about the accuracy of those claims?

41:57

Are they true, and do contemporary African American denominations recognize his ministry as their point of beginning?

42:06

Thanks for bringing us great discussion on such formative subjects. Well, I'm assuming that there were

42:13

Christians, especially since slavery was in existence before Whitefield. I'm assuming there were

42:18

Christians who were, there were slaves who were Christians, but, and even freemen who were

42:24

Christians, but perhaps there was some more significant number of them that came to Christ through Whitefield.

42:30

What do you have to say about that? Do you know? Well, yes. Here in America, and during that period that Whitefield was ministering here, he traveled here to America on seven different occasions, and really he came to love

42:51

America even more than he did his own home country of Great Britain. But he did have a very strong, tremendous impact on the

43:06

African slaves here in America. In fact, there is one of the

43:14

African slaves, I believe her name was Phyllis Wheatley, or Phyllis Whitley.

43:21

She actually became a famous poet, and when Whitefield passed away on September 30, 1770, she actually penned a very beautiful, long poet about him, and she, thanking

43:39

God, actually, and this is talking about countercultural, she was thanking

43:45

God for the fact that she was a slave and brought to America so that she could hear the

43:51

Gospel and be converted to Christ, and she gave so much of that gratitude to George Whitefield as God's servant to that end.

44:04

Wow, praise God. Well, Joe, you did have an accurate assumption about that, and thank you very much for writing in,

44:11

Joe. We always love to hear from you and keep spreading the word about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio there in Slovenia and beyond, and I'm hoping one of these days,

44:22

Joe, that you do take advantage of the fact that your daughter lives in Georgia and the upcoming

44:28

G3 conference in January is always in Atlanta, Georgia. I hope that you take advantage of that and fly out here to the

44:36

States to not only spend time with your daughter, but so I can meet you in person there at the G3 conference in Atlanta this year.

44:44

It's January 18th through the 20th, at least the English -speaking edition is 18th through the 20th of January, and the

44:51

Spanish -speaking edition is the 17th, but I hope that you can fly out there so I can meet you.

44:57

I will be manning, God willing, an Iron Sharpens Iron Radio exhibitors booth at the G3 conference, and we'll be giving you more details later on in the show about that, but the website is g3conference .com,

45:09

g3conference .com. We have David in Ada, Ohio, who says, in my church, we are studying the end times, pre, post, et cetera, millennial positions, as well as dispensationalism, so I wonder where George Whitefield was on his end times position, and did he have any influence or contact with premillennial dispensationalism?

45:32

I don't think that premillennial dispensationalism, especially the second half of that phrase, dispensationalism,

45:38

I don't think that that existed in Whitefield's day, did it? No, no, it did not. No, dispensationalism started in 1830 with John Darby there in Great Britain, so yeah, so there was no such thing as dispensationalism before 1830.

45:55

As far as Whitefield's eschatology, Whitefield was a confessional

46:03

Anglican. He also expressed his very strong affirmation and adoption of even the

46:11

Westminster Confession of Faith, and so if you really want to know his eschatology,

46:18

I would say read the Westminster Confession, read the 39 Articles of England. His eschatology was more on the main and plain things of Scripture, referring to the visible, physical second coming of Christ, the final judgment, the resurrection of the just and the unjust, heaven, hell, you know, all of those things that we would say are main and plain.

46:49

And I emphasize main and plain because no matter, and I don't want to go down this trail too far, but no matter what your millennial view may be, pre, post, all, all

47:02

Christians, despite their millennial view, would hold to what are the orthodox teachings, the main and plain doctrines of Scripture as far as eschatology is concerned, the tenets that I just mentioned.

47:21

So George Whitefield most certainly believed those things, but as far as getting into millennial views or positions or anything like that, that was just something that Whitefield never broached.

47:41

I mean, his main thing was always the gospel, the gospel, the gospel.

47:48

And in getting the gospel of Christ out to as many people as he could possibly reach.

47:55

Well, thank you, Joe and Slovenia. And by the way, I don't think that any of the major Reformed confessions, including the

48:02

Westminster and the 39 Articles, actually get very specific about any of the end -time scenarios other than what you just mentioned about Christ visibly returning the resurrection of the dead.

48:16

There are pre -mill, amill, and post -mill, that is historic pre -mill, amill, and post -mill

48:22

Christians who adhere to all of the major Reformed confessions, including the 1689

48:28

London Epist Confession. Charles Spurgeon is the most famous one that I can think of right now, who was a historic pre -millennialist and also a thoroughgoing confessional

48:39

Calvinist. Right. So, but thanks for that great question,

48:45

David, in Ada, Ohio, and continue to spread the word about Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio in Ohio and beyond.

48:52

We have Murray in Kinross, Scotland, who says, many apologies for this long quote,

48:59

Chris, but I was wondering if Kurt Smith could comment on whether such a view of antinomians was fairly consistent in Whitefield's ministry.

49:09

I understand the doctrinal point he is making here, but feel he is a bit harsh in his dismissal.

49:19

This is from his sermon, The Lord Our Light. Some allow that there is mourning before, that's m -o -u -r -n -i -n -g.

49:28

Some allow that there is mourning before, but no mourning after conversion. Pray who says so?

49:35

None but an antinomian, a rank antinomian, and when you hear a person say that after conversion you will have no mourning, you may be assured that person is at best walking by moonlight.

49:48

He does not walk by the sun. He has some doctrine in his head, but very little grace,

49:55

I'm afraid, in his heart. Amen, as far as I'm concerned. That's Chris Arnzen speaking right now. I'll move on to a second question after you respond to that.

50:06

I see that as a very legitimate quote because if you are not, I'm assuming Whitefield's talking about mourning over sin.

50:14

Yeah. And if you don't have any mourning over sin, there's something wrong with your heart. Yeah, absolutely.

50:21

Well, of course. Well, I mean, our Lord Jesus himself teaches us in the Beatitudes that one of the snapshot characteristics of a true follower of Christ is, blessed are they that mourn.

50:34

And certainly we know the kind of mourning that our Lord is speaking of there is godly sorrow.

50:44

And why is that so important? Why is that so critical? Because 2

50:50

Corinthians 7 and verse 12 says that it's godly sorrow that leads to repentance. But it's not only godly sorrow before conversion or leading into conversion, but certainly, and the scriptures would bear this out, it is godly sorrow any and every time that a true child of God falls into sin.

51:17

You know, I mean, our hearts are broken over what we have done against God.

51:24

And of course, the Holy Spirit who indwells us is convicting us of what we have done.

51:32

And I just think of, you know, the Apostle Paul in Romans 7, crying out, O wretched man that I am.

51:38

Oh, what was he feeling so wretched about? Well, he says, the good that I will to do

51:44

I do not, but the evil I hate, that I do. He didn't feel good about that. He had great lamentation over that.

51:52

But that's a godly lamentation. And any, you know, any authentic true believer is just going to have that, you know.

52:03

So, I mean, I would affirm wholeheartedly with what

52:09

Whitefield is after there and what the point that he is pressing home. Yeah, because that's a very serious issue.

52:16

That's not a minor difference that brothers in Christ can disagree over. When somebody says, basically, that they feel just fine and they are carefree and guilt -free and go on happy -go -lucky in their everyday life, because, well, you know,

52:38

Jesus has forgiven me for my sins, so I don't need to be concerned about disobeying God anymore.

52:43

That's a very dangerous and damnably dangerous position to be in, isn't it? Well, absolutely it is.

52:51

It is very much. And, you know, think of what we're told in 1 John chapter 1 in verse 8.

52:57

If anyone says he has no sin, he is a liar and the truth is not in him.

53:03

What's important about that verse of Scripture and what it's teaching is that when the

53:08

Apostle John says, if anyone says he has no sin, the grammatical construction of that term sin is used in a way of where it is referring to the guilt of sin.

53:26

If anyone says that he is not guilty of sin is the idea, that's the sense of what that verse is saying, then he's a liar.

53:38

The truth is not in him. And so, you know, that's the reason he goes on with the following verse, which we know all very well, verse 9.

53:49

So, you know, if we confess our sins, then God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

53:58

So, you know, if there's not an ongoing confession, then according to what 1

54:07

John chapter 1 teaches, there is not a conversion there. There's not a regeneration that has taken place there.

54:15

But comparing Scripture with Scripture, that confession of sin is a heartbreaking confession.

54:24

You know, it is David in Psalm 51 expressing to God in great lamentation against you and you only have

54:33

I sinned and done this evil in your sight. You know, and again, what does David say in that penitential prayer when he says, you know, the sacrifices that God delights in are a broken and a contrite heart.

54:48

These, O God, you will not despise. A broken and a contrite heart. And David was expressing that as one who was a man after God's own heart.

54:59

So, yeah, that's really important. Well, we'll get to Murray's second question when we return from our midway break.

55:05

If anybody else would like to join us with a question, our email address is chrizarnsen at gmail .com.

55:11

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And always please remember to give us your first name, city and state and country of residence if you live outside the

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from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. And now we have to do the uncomfortable portion of the program where I rattle my tin cup and beg you for money again.

01:05:18

As many of you know who have listened to this program going all the way back to 2005, I have very rarely ever in the history of this program made public appeals for donations until recently, until starting several months ago.

01:05:33

In fact, I never did until several months ago. The advertisers who have been generous enough and who love this program enough to keep

01:05:40

Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air with their advertising dollars have begged me to make public appeals for more advertisers and more donations because of the fact that we are facing very difficult times financially, and my advertisers do not want

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Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio to go off the air. So therefore, if you love this program as well, if you want it to exist or to continue to exist, if you want it to remain on the air, then please consider donating to Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

01:06:17

Of course, as I try to always remember to tell you, never, ever, ever cut into or siphon money out of your regular giving to the local church where you are a member.

01:06:28

And if you're not a member of a local church, you've got to rectify that situation because you're living in disobedience to God if you're not a member of a good, solid

01:06:36

Bible -believing church. But if you are giving to that church, please don't ever cut money out of giving to them and never take money off of or food out of your family's mouths or off of your family's dinner table if you're struggling to make ends meet.

01:06:54

But if you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to both support family and church, which are two commands of God, then please consider supporting

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01:07:19

If you love this program, if you don't want it to go away, please pray about giving not only once but even regularly to Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio if you can afford to do so.

01:07:30

Just go to the website, ironsharpensironradio .com, ironsharpensironradio .com,

01:07:36

click on support, and then you'll see an address where you can mail a check made payable to Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

01:07:43

If you want to advertise with us, whether it's advertising your church, your parachurch organization, your business, your professional practice, whether you're a lawyer, a doctor, a dentist, a special event that you're having, well, whatever it is that you want to advertise, as long as it is compatible with the theology expressed on this program, it doesn't have to be identical with my theology, but it must be compatible with the theology of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, then we would love to work out an ad campaign with you because we could certainly use the advertising dollars.

01:08:15

Then just send an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:08:21

and put advertising in the subject line. We would love to work out a campaign with you as soon as possible.

01:08:31

And we are now back with our guest, Kurt M. Smith, pastor of Providence Reform Baptist Church of Pine Mountain, Alabama.

01:08:39

We are discussing George Whitfield today, and George Whitfield happens to be the subject of a new book that Kurt M.

01:08:47

Smith is working on, and if you could repeat the working title of that book that is not yet in print,

01:08:55

Kurt? Yeah, sure, Ken. The working title is called Thundering the

01:09:00

Word, and the subtitle is a primer on George Whitfield's life and legacy proclaiming

01:09:08

Christ as a Calvinistic evangelist. That's a great title, and I love that thundering the word part especially.

01:09:19

That's a perfect description of George Whitfield, obviously, from what we have heard about him.

01:09:25

Yeah, it is, it is. Well, Whitfield himself, actually, where I got the title,

01:09:31

I got the title from Whitfield. Whitfield once wrote this in a letter to a friend.

01:09:40

He says, the Christian world is in a deep sleep, and nothing but a loud voice can awaken them out of it.

01:09:49

Amen, amen. We have Murray in Kinross, Scotland.

01:09:54

He has a second question that we didn't get to before the break. He says, given the way the

01:10:00

Lord used Whitfield's preaching in the open air to such large numbers, do we have any justification for ignoring open air preaching today?

01:10:11

That's a very good question, because you'll have a lot of Reformed churches that would never say a word against open air preaching, but very few do that.

01:10:26

Yes, very few do that. Well, as I once told a man many years ago who was a member of a church

01:10:34

I pastored in Georgia who wanted to do just that very thing after he had heard

01:10:41

Stephen Lawson's biographical presentation of George Whitfield, which is a very good biographical presentation.

01:10:51

This particular gentleman, he was so excited of just, you know, what

01:10:58

Whitfield did that he wanted to go out into the streets of the county seat there and start doing what

01:11:09

Whitfield did. He talked to me about it, and I just had to tell him as gently as I could, first, you're not

01:11:17

Whitfield. Second, you don't even have the natural gifts.

01:11:25

You don't even have the natural oratorical powers that he did that God clearly gave him.

01:11:32

Secondly, here's the other thing we've got to remember. Whitfield was forced out into the open air.

01:11:42

Whitfield did not start in the open air. He was forced into the open air.

01:11:48

Now, providentially, that was God's plan. That was God's purpose to send his man into the fields, into the highways and hedges, and proclaim

01:12:01

Christ to all. But, you know, my answer to what

01:12:08

Murray has asked is, there are brethren today.

01:12:16

Of course, none of them would be Whitfield. There was only one George Whitfield. But there are brethren today who do go into the open air.

01:12:26

I know there are those who practice that in Great Britain, and there are some who do it here in America. I'm thankful for what these brethren do.

01:12:39

I mean, certainly those that take it with a seriousness that it should be taken with.

01:12:46

You know, in other words, they don't just go out there and just yell in a microphone and just say, you know, you're going to hell if you don't repent and turn to Christ.

01:12:57

But they actually try to preach a sermon. They actually try to, you know, proclaim

01:13:03

Christ scripturally, biblically, in a very sound and intelligible way.

01:13:09

Um, I greatly admire those men that do that.

01:13:16

You know, is, I mean, is it, you know, is it justified what they're doing? Well, if, you know, if that is something that the

01:13:25

Lord has so gifted them to do and has set them apart to do, then sure, it is justifiable.

01:13:31

I don't think, however, that it is something that all churches should be involved in, because it's not, it's not something scripturally that we can see is definitively required.

01:13:49

You know, what is definitively required of us is to, of course, preach the gospel, proclaim the gospel, spread the gospel.

01:13:59

That, you know, normally that's going to be through the means of what we see every week in the local church, but also it can be, you know, conversing with neighbors and friends and family, etc.,

01:14:13

during the week. So, you know, I mean, there are different ways and means that the

01:14:21

Lord gets his word out, gets his gospel out. So, you know, the open -air way of preaching, yeah,

01:14:30

I mean, I think it's justified, but I think to look at Whitefield and to say, and I'm not hearing this in Murray's question,

01:14:39

I'm not saying that he, not that he's saying this, but just thinking about others who would maybe read about Whitefield, hear about Whitefield, and what he did, and looking at this, you know, for lack of a better term, the success, or better, the fruit, more biblically, the fruit that came forth from those labors, we just have to remember that's how

01:15:01

God chose to use George Whitefield. And that doesn't mean that the

01:15:06

Lord has chosen to use anybody else in that way, in that manner, like that.

01:15:12

And frankly, since Whitefield's time and era, the Lord has not used anybody in that way and in that manner.

01:15:22

That's the reason I said there was only one George Whitefield, so. When you said the Lord has not used anyone in that way, in that manner,

01:15:30

I know people who are committed to open -air preaching who have seen many souls come to Christ as a result of that.

01:15:37

Are you talking about in regard to a phenomenon like Whitefield, where there was actually a revival?

01:15:45

Yes, yes, yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Okay. Exactly what I'm talking about, yeah.

01:15:53

Well, I was going to say, I'm not referring at all to, you know, to people who actually come to faith in Christ through that means, but no, it's the phenomena of what happened, where he went, you know, and how the

01:16:10

Spirit empowered and how the Spirit was pleased to so bless his labors in such a massive, vast spiritual awakening and revival.

01:16:26

Yeah, I guess the goal of those street preachers or open -air preachers that I know, like Tony Miano, for instance,

01:16:34

I don't know if you know Tony. Mike Gadosh actually published a book by him. He is one of these brethren who takes open -air preaching very seriously and doesn't believe that just anyone should do it.

01:16:48

He believes that a person should be called by his church to do it. He believes that much of what goes on under the label of open -air or street preaching is heretical and is filled with mavericks and lone wolves just preaching in the open air because they would never have been appointed to preach by their own churches, and many of them are not even members of churches.

01:17:14

So he recognizes the downfall of the open -air preacher or street preacher, but at the same time, he and those like him who take it very seriously would say that they are reaching an audience that the confinements of the gathered assembly on a

01:17:32

Sunday morning or evening or a Wednesday evening would not reach. People that are maybe at a carnival or they're out doing something that might be innocuous and acceptable even by God, some kind of recreational activity, or they might even be involved in some wicked behavior, and the street preacher is to prick their conscience, of course, by the working of the

01:17:58

Holy Spirit. But that's just to give their side, since they're not here, to say anything about that.

01:18:06

Yeah, well, and men like that that you're talking about, you know, obviously we thank

01:18:12

God for men like that. I mean, you know, there are legitimate, sound, godly men, you know, who, like this brother you're referring to, is actually sent out by his local church under the auspices and authority of the church he belongs to to do what he does.

01:18:31

You know, so in his context, I mean, he really is fulfilling what

01:18:37

Paul refers to in Romans chapter 10. You know, how shall they preach unless they're sent? This brother is sent legitimately, you know, by the local church to do what he does.

01:18:46

And also, too, I very much appreciate the fact that he does say, hey, not everybody can do this.

01:18:54

You know, I mean, you know, this is something that does, in fact, take a calling.

01:19:00

It takes certain gifts, you know, that one has to have. So yeah,

01:19:05

I mean, I am very grateful to the Lord for those like this brother who do that, and he's right.

01:19:15

I mean, they are reaching, they are reaching a certain part of the culture that pastors like myself would never be able to reach.

01:19:27

And so, you know, thank the Lord for that. But again, going back to Whitefield, you know, when you read his life, when you read how the

01:19:37

Lord used him in the phenomenal way, and use that term very deliberately, as other historians have who have written about him, it was a phenomenal way in which

01:19:50

God used him. I mean, the power of God rested on him very unusually.

01:19:57

And he himself knew it. I mean, he knew it. I mean, he knew this was the

01:20:03

Lord. This was God doing this, which is why in so much of his correspondence, he expressed very strongly things like, for instance, in the letter that he wrote in 1738, he actually rebuked this gentleman for praising him,

01:20:29

Whitefield, for praising Whitefield so much. He said, he said, give me leave to chide you, for you and many others ought not to think more highly of me than you ought to think.

01:20:39

For alas, I am nothing, have nothing, and can do nothing without God. What although I may, like a polished sepulcher, appear a little beautiful on the outside, yet within I am full of pride, self -love, and all manner of corruption.

01:20:55

However, by the grace of God, I am what I am. And if it should please God to make me instrumental to do the least good, not unto me, but unto him, be all the glory.

01:21:07

And that was his spirit, that was his attitude that he expressed for the 34 years that he ministered and he preached the word of God.

01:21:20

But it is remarkable to see how the

01:21:25

Lord really spent Whitefield out under his power. Amen.

01:21:31

And we have a question that has been on my mind as well from Christopher in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York.

01:21:40

He asks, when did the friendship between George Whitefield and John Wesley begin?

01:21:48

And did George Whitefield come out of an Arminian understanding of the gospel that his friend

01:21:56

John Wesley maintained throughout his life unto death? Or was he, from earliest memory after being a convert to Christianity, a

01:22:06

Calvinist? Well, that is a great question, and I'm really glad that somebody's asked that question.

01:22:13

Well, to answer the first part of it, George Whitefield, John Wesley, they became acquainted with one another, and I would say more like friends at a distance when

01:22:32

Whitefield went to Pembroke College there in Oxford. Of course, Whitefield, when he went to Pembroke College, he was not converted, and likewise, neither was

01:22:42

John Wesley converted, nor was Charles Wesley, nor all of these little band of men that formed a little organization that called the

01:22:51

Holy Club. Whitefield joined their little club called the

01:22:57

Holy Club, and there's such a parallel between Whitefield and Martin Luther at this point in Whitefield's life.

01:23:07

In the same way that Luther did everything he could prescribed by the

01:23:13

Catholic Church and described by his monastery to work his way to heaven, well,

01:23:20

George Whitefield exactly gave the same energy to doing everything that was prescribed by the Holy Club and wound up putting himself quite literally in bed and nearly killed himself, nearly inadvertently took his own life because of how much he was breaking his own health over trying to get himself saved, trying to save himself.

01:23:50

But all of that came via his introduction to John Wesley.

01:23:58

Wesley was several years older than Whitefield. Whitefield became more affectionately attached to John Wesley's younger brother

01:24:06

Charles, but Whitefield always, always had a very deep respect and paid very open public and even private honor to John Wesley and did so for his entire life.

01:24:24

And that is in spite of the fact that they aggressively opposed each other in quite a heated fashion over the doctrines known as Calvinism.

01:24:37

John Wesley was openly an Arminian, in fact so much so that many identify themselves today as Wesleyan Arminian, those coming from the holiness background and some of the evangelical

01:24:54

Methodists and Pentecostals today would call themselves Wesleyan holiness or Wesleyan Arminian.

01:25:00

But George Whitefield and he disagreed strongly on the doctrines of grace, even to the point where some might question whether they were friends, but they were indeed friends and did not

01:25:12

Whitefield request of Wesley that he preach at Whitefield's funeral after he died and then subsequently he did.

01:25:21

Yes, yeah, that is correct. He did. Now, as far as the other part of this brother's question regarding the

01:25:30

Arminianism, was Whitefield an Arminian before his conversion or even entering into his conversion,

01:25:43

Whitefield would definitely have been more of a semi -Pelagian than a full -blown

01:25:54

Arminian like John Wesley. Following Wesley's conversion, Wesley certainly came to see and understand the biblical truth of the new birth of justification by faith alone and even the depravity of man, but of course that was only to an extent because he held very, very strongly, very openly, very adamantly the

01:26:24

Arminian doctrines. Whereas with George Whitefield, immediately following his conversion in the first two years of his

01:26:33

Christian life, Whitefield was reading

01:26:38

Matthew, Henry, and some of the Puritans along with his

01:26:45

Greek New Testament and his open Bible daily. So Whitefield fast became what we would call a

01:26:57

Calvinist. It just really wasn't long at all before his understanding of the

01:27:07

Reformed faith developed very quickly following his conversion. Then, of course, when he made his first trip in 1738 -39, made his first trip to America, he came into contact with men like Jonathan Edwards, the tenants, and other men who, of course, were older than him.

01:27:33

They were older in the Reformed faith than he was, and they really helped deepen his convictions of the

01:27:45

Reformed faith that he had been so well introduced to, especially by Matthew, Henry.

01:27:50

Matthew, Henry was George Whitefield's all -time favorite Bible commentator. He read the full set of Matthew, Henry's Bible commentary and read it backwards and forwards for all of those 34 years of his

01:28:10

Christian life. Matthew, Henry really was the one that had the greatest impact as far as a writer was concerned on Whitefield's Reformed theology.

01:28:26

Then, moving into the friendship between Wesley and Whitefield, in 1739, when

01:28:38

Whitefield left for America, John Wesley printed a sermon.

01:28:48

Of all things, it was entitled Free Grace, but the sermon had nothing to do with what we would understand as free grace.

01:28:56

It was a sermon that was attacking very openly with great vitriol against the

01:29:05

Reformed faith, against the biblical doctrines of predestination, final perseverance, election.

01:29:12

John Wesley went so far as to say in that sermon that anyone who believed in these doctrines were of the devil.

01:29:24

And, of course, George Whitefield, he's over in America during this time, he's getting reports of this through correspondence of what

01:29:34

Wesley has done, and Whitefield is just absolutely mortified. He pleads with John Wesley to pull back, to recant of making this public, of going public with it, and Wesley's response was basically, you know,

01:29:56

I had casted a lot for this. That was one of Wesley's practices, to cast lots to determine the will of God, which was, of course, very mystical, and he cast a lot, and the lot said, preach and print.

01:30:11

And so, nothing could change Wesley's mind to do what he did in preaching and printing this sermon, this sermon that would become incredibly divisive and destructive in the whole evangelical movement that had been awakened there in the late 1730s, and primarily through Whitefield and his preaching and leadership.

01:30:40

And so, Whitefield knew that when he came back to Great Britain that he was going to have to publicly respond to John Wesley, even though it absolutely pained him to no end to do that, because John Wesley was very dear to his heart, as was, of course, his brother

01:31:06

Charles even more so, and while Whitefield, in the beginning, had urged he and Wesley to remain silent about their disagreements on these doctrines, yet it was during Whitefield's time in America, and through the influence of men like Jonathan Edwards of the

01:31:25

Tenets, that Whitefield really came to see these doctrines with a greater seriousness, and a seriousness that involved the questions that were raised around them.

01:31:39

And so, by the reports he was receiving from England, the damage and divisiveness resulting from Wesley's sermon could not go unanswered.

01:31:48

And so, when he came back, and this just really gives you, in his own words, what he immediately faced, he wrote this in a letter on March 25, 1741.

01:32:04

He wrote this from London. He says, My bookseller, who I believe has got some hundreds by me, being drawn away, refuses to print for me.

01:32:14

And many, very many of my spiritual children, who at my last departure from England would have plucked out their own eyes to have given to me, are so prejudiced by the dear

01:32:24

Messrs. Wesley's dressing up the doctrine of election in such horrible colors that they will neither hear, see, nor give me the least assistance.

01:32:32

Yea, some of them send threatening letters that God will speedily destroy me. As for the people of the world, they are so embittered by my injudicious and too severe expressions against Archbishop Tillotson and the author of the old duty of man that they fly from me as from a viper.

01:32:48

And what is most cutting of all, I am now constrained, on account of our differing in principles, publicly to separate from my dear, dear old friends,

01:32:59

John and Charles Wesley, whom I still love as my own soul, but through infinite mercy

01:33:07

I am enabled to strengthen myself in the Lord my God. I am cast down but not destroyed, perplexed but not in despair.

01:33:15

A few days ago, in reading Beezus' Life of Calvin, these words were much pressed upon me.

01:33:22

Calvin is turned out of Geneva, but behold, a new church arises.

01:33:28

Jesus, the ever -loving, altogether lovely Jesus, pities and comforts me.

01:33:37

And from that, from just from that excerpt of that letter, I mean, you really see the heart of Whitefield and what he was facing on the immediate front of this division between he and John Wesley.

01:33:52

And it would be a division that would last for most of the rest of Whitefield's ministry and of Wesley's ministry up until, you know, near the end.

01:34:11

As you know, as it was mentioned, when Whitefield left, when he left

01:34:16

England in 1769, he knew he would never be returning back to England. And so he did correspond with John Wesley and beseeched

01:34:28

Wesley, when you hear of my passing, I would like for you to preach my funeral sermon.

01:34:34

Wow. And that, you know, that's really, really huge. That's huge. That's enormous.

01:34:41

Yeah, it is enormous. Another thing that's really huge is this. In fact, could you pick up there when we come back?

01:34:48

We have one more final break. Absolutely. Don't forget what you were going to say. Okay, I won't.

01:34:55

And we're coming back right after these messages, God willing, with our final segment of our interview with Curt M.

01:35:01

Smith. So don't go away. will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

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01:37:05

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01:37:11

Christmas, and perhaps even if you want to include Reformation Day as a holiday or a new celebration that you and your family can start a tradition over every year,

01:37:24

October 31st is Reformation Day. But if you want to give family, friends, and loved ones gifts, please go to solid -ground -books .com.

01:37:33

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01:37:51

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01:38:01

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01:38:10

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01:38:19

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01:38:25

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01:38:31

to 2 p .m. that I mentioned earlier, with keynote speaker

01:38:36

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01:38:44

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01:38:51

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01:38:58

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01:39:07

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01:39:15

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01:39:23

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01:39:48

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01:39:59

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01:40:10

English edition of the conference, and that edition includes

01:40:16

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01:40:29

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01:40:46

And now we are back to our discussion, our final 20 minutes with our friend

01:40:51

Kurt M. Smith. We are speaking about George Whitefield, and moments before we went to the last station break, you had something you wanted to say that was of great importance.

01:41:03

This is right after you said that even though there was such serious and harsh and radical theological division between George Whitefield and John and Charles Wesley, he still sent that letter, or however he communicated the request to Wesley, George Whitefield still made the request that Wesley preach at his funeral after departing this earth.

01:41:31

So what was it that you wanted to say right after we were talking about that? Yeah, well, just to give another example of how much

01:41:44

Whitefield held John Wesley in such esteem. In 1748, and just to understand this, 1748, we're looking at nine years has passed since John Wesley printed that awful sermon against predestination, election, and really against all who believe in that, and therefore really against Whitefield.

01:42:17

So nine years have passed since that, and so we come to 1748, and here

01:42:23

Whitefield, in returning from America again, he is so just conflicted and burdened over the contention, the divisiveness that had just been growing over those years between those that followed

01:42:49

Wesley and those that attached themselves to Whitefield, that in 1748

01:42:55

Whitefield determined to put an end to his official relationship to the

01:43:00

Calvinistic Methodists on the one hand, as well as an end to any official ties with the

01:43:07

Methodist movement on the other hand altogether. And so in doing this, he turned everything over in this movement that is the

01:43:18

Methodist movement in general, he turned everything over to of all people John Wesley as its perennial leader, which is why to this day when people think of the

01:43:29

Methodist movement, they only think of John Wesley as the founder, but the facts of history actually have

01:43:38

George Whitefield as the real founder and the pioneer. But that's because in 1748

01:43:45

Whitefield, he turned all of it over to Wesley. And while Whitefield's followers urged very strongly against Whitefield's decision in this manner,

01:43:59

Whitefield's response to them and to others during this time revealed a heart that was graced with selfless humility.

01:44:11

And this is one of the biggest character traits that I'm bringing out in my publication on Whitefield about him, and that is just how humble this man of God was.

01:44:23

For instance, he says in one letter, let the name of Whitefield perish, but Christ be glorified.

01:44:30

In another letter, he says, let my name die everywhere, let even my friends forget me, if by that means the cause of the

01:44:39

Jesus may be pronounced. In another letter, he says, but what is Calvin or what is

01:44:45

Luther? Let us look above names and parties, let Jesus be our all in all, so that he be preached,

01:44:54

I care not who is uppermost, I know my place, even to be the servant of all.

01:45:03

And writing to a friend here in America, he said this, and he said this often to others, he says,

01:45:12

I am content to wait till the judgment day for the clearing up of my character, and after I am dead,

01:45:21

I desire no other epitaph than this. Here lies George Whitefield, what sort of man he was, the great day will discover.

01:45:32

Wow. Praise God. Let's see, we have

01:45:40

RJ in White Plains, New York, and he asks,

01:45:50

I have heard that there are Presbyterians that even to this day have a lot of problems with Whitefield and his theology, and for the life of me,

01:46:01

I cannot understand it. Do you have any insights into this? Yeah, the insight that I have into that is there are a certain group of Presbyterians, and this is mainly coming out of a certain theological seminary that I'll leave anonymous, that are basically teaching and saying that George Whitefield, and they even throw

01:46:34

Jonathan Edwards into the lot as well, were basically just enthusiastic men who sought to, especially with Whitefield, you know, sought to work up the emotions of the people that he preached to, he used a lot of the social media of that time to promote his cause and his agenda, and that this whole thing with the

01:47:09

Great Awakening, the Evangelical Revival, being a supernatural work of God, that we should just, we should completely dismiss all of that.

01:47:20

And so it is in fact a teaching that is being taught in certain

01:47:28

Presbyterian schools, seminaries, where, yeah,

01:47:34

George Whitefield, along with some others like Jonathan Edwards, are just being dismissed altogether.

01:47:43

And what, the way it's couched is that these men, Whitefield, Edwards, and those men, they were all about what they say was pietism.

01:47:57

But my response to that is, to these particular men who are teaching this, or believing this, or advocating this, is that what makes them so uncomfortable and so annoyed about men like George Whitefield is that Whitefield was what we call an experiential

01:48:20

Calvinist. He was not an armchair Calvinist. There was nothing cerebral about his preaching.

01:48:30

When the man preached, his preaching affected the heart of those who heard him, because he went after the heart.

01:48:39

His preaching from beginning to end was application, application, application.

01:48:45

Strong, sound content, because it was biblical, but he went after the hearts of his hearers.

01:48:56

He was not just preaching to these throngs of people to give them just good information.

01:49:05

Right, and I assume you mean that he wasn't exclusively cerebral, because certainly the mind was involved there.

01:49:13

Right, yeah, of course, absolutely. Yeah, and that's exactly what I do mean. Yeah, he was not exclusively cerebral, yeah.

01:49:19

In other words, it wasn't just pure intellectualism.

01:49:26

You know, when you read his sermons, his sermons even to this day arrest you.

01:49:34

They captivate you. You know, they cause you to do something that the Bible commands us to do, and that is to make your calling and election sure, to examine yourself to see whether or not you are indeed in the faith.

01:49:50

But for these certain Presbyterians in our times, they want to dismiss all that.

01:49:58

They say, well, that's just pietism. But no, it is experiential

01:50:06

Calvinism, and to just give an example of Whitefield and his experiential

01:50:12

Calvinism, there was a letter that he wrote to, of all things, to the students in the colleges of Cambridge and New Haven and New England and Connecticut.

01:50:27

This was a letter to those at Yale and Harvard, and this is what he wrote.

01:50:36

He said, dear gentlemen, a dead ministry will always make a dead people.

01:50:43

Whereas if ministers are warmed with the love of God themselves, they cannot but be instruments of diffusing that love among others.

01:50:53

This is the best preparation for the work where unto you are to be called.

01:50:58

Learning without piety will only make you more capable of promoting the kingdom of Satan.

01:51:07

Henceforward, therefore, I hope you will enter into your studies not to get a parish, nor to be polite preachers, but to be great saints.

01:51:19

This indeed is the most compendious way to true learning, for an understanding enlightened by the

01:51:25

Spirit of God is more susceptible of divine truths, and I am certain will prove more useful to mankind.

01:51:33

The more holy you are, the more will God delight to honor you.

01:51:40

Amen. By the way, why anybody would have a problem with that,

01:51:46

I don't know. Yeah, I know. In fact, the biblical prohibition against being an ear tickler,

01:51:57

I think even though the, obviously the biblical, the main biblical reason for that prohibition or warning was because there would be people teaching unsound doctrine, but at the same time, there are people who are teaching sound doctrine in an unsound way that are all about the exclusively the cerebral understanding of these things and use them as a reason to be proud and to view themselves as an elite group of Christians, and they teach these things to tickle men's ears as long as they don't reach a point that makes them uncomfortable.

01:52:46

If it actually results in their consciences being convicted, they actually must do something and obey

01:52:55

James's command in his own epistle about being more than just Christians in name only, but to show their faith by their works, then you're going to have people who are even theologically sound on paper being very upset and being those that would be among those who despise

01:53:18

Whitfield. Would I be correct on that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that is correct. What you're saying is bringing back to my mind an address that Martin Lloyd Jones gave back in the 1960s, an address he gave on John Calvin and George Whitfield.

01:53:35

He actually combined both of the men in one address, giving biographical sketches of both and the lessons we learned and gained from them.

01:53:44

And when it came to George Whitfield, Martin Lloyd Jones said very provocatively, he said,

01:53:51

John Calvin always needs George Whitfield. And how he explained that, he said, orthodoxy is not enough.

01:54:01

There were orthodox men in Whitfield's time, but they were comparatively useless. He says you can have a dead orthodoxy.

01:54:10

Orthodoxy is essential, but orthodoxy alone has never produced a revival and it never will.

01:54:16

The danger of those who follow the teachings of Calvin and do so rightly is that they tend to become intellectualists or they tend to sink into what

01:54:26

I would describe as an ossified orthodoxy. And that is of no value.

01:54:33

You need the power of the Spirit upon it. To state the truth is not enough.

01:54:38

It must be stated in demonstration of the Spirit and of power. And that is what this mighty man,

01:54:45

George Whitfield, so gloriously illustrates. He was orthodox, but the thing that produced the phenomenon was the power of the

01:54:56

Spirit upon him. He says that he felt something even at his ordination, as if he had received a commission from the

01:55:04

Spirit himself. He was always conscious of this. Wave after wave of the Spirit would come upon him.

01:55:09

This power of the Spirit is essential. And so Lord Jones closes this and he says, we must be orthodox, but God forbid,

01:55:17

God forbid us to rest even on orthodoxy. We must seek the power of the Spirit that was given to George Whitfield.

01:55:24

That will give us a sorrow for souls and a concern for souls and give us the zeal and enable us to preach with power and conviction to all classes and kinds of men.

01:55:35

Amen. By the way, I don't know if I ever told you this, but I have mentioned it before on the program, but the

01:55:42

Lord used George Whitfield's letter to John Wesley on election to open my eyes to the doctrines of sovereign grace.

01:55:51

When I first became a Christian, I was, as Charles Spurgeon once said, all men are by nature

01:55:58

Arminians, or something close to that, he said. I had never heard of Calvinism and I was raised

01:56:08

Roman Catholic. It was never brought up in my upbringing as a Catholic. And the

01:56:13

Arminian churches that I had visited prior to my regeneration had never brought up Calvinism that I remember.

01:56:20

And so this was all new to me and very bizarre and I was militating against it. And then some brother from England in the congregation where I was a member handed me this booklet published by Chapel Library, George Whitfield's letter to John Wesley on election.

01:56:36

And after I read it, I said to myself, oh no, this is true, but I hate it.

01:56:41

This is horrible. But then within a month or so, I came to embrace and love the teachings of the doctrines of grace.

01:56:50

And it personalized my salvation in a far, infinitely far greater way than ever before, where I realized that God was specifically drawing me to himself because he was indeed going to save me and that Christ died for me on that cross, not for a nameless, faceless sea of humans as a possibility of redeeming them.

01:57:19

He purposely and intentionally and successfully died on Calvary for me and redeemed me.

01:57:28

And that just totally revolutionized my way of thinking in regard to salvation. Amen.

01:57:37

That's what the doctrines of grace do. That's what they do. And by the way, if anybody wants to order that booklet from Chapel Library, go to chapellibrary .org

01:57:46

and just type in George Whitfield and you will see George Whitfield's letter to John Wesley on election.

01:57:52

In about a minute's time, can you just summarize what you most want to leave with our audience, what you most want etched in their hearts and minds?

01:58:01

Yeah. George Whitfield, he wrote in a letter on January the 9th, 1738, he was making his very first trip to America and he was writing this to a friend named

01:58:17

Daniel Abbott there in Great Britain. And he closed the letter with this petition.

01:58:25

And this petition really sums up what we see in the life and ministry of Whitfield, but also is a good example to follow.

01:58:36

He said, God, give me a deep humility, a well -guided zeal, a burning love, and a single eye and let men or devils do their worst.

01:58:48

Wow. Amen. Well, I want to make sure that our listeners have your church website. It's prbc1689 .org,

01:58:56

PRBC standing for Providence Reformed Baptist Church, 1689 .org. And also the

01:59:02

Solid Ground Christian Books website, so people can order some of your books that are already in print.

01:59:08

Solid -Ground -Books .com, Solid -Ground -Books .com. Do you have any other contact information?

01:59:16

No, none other than that. Great. Well, I look forward to having you back in the program, Kurt. And if you could hold on,

01:59:21

I'd like to schedule you for another interview. All right. Thank you, Chris. Great being on here today. Yeah. And I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who wrote in.

01:59:28

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.