October 27, 2017 Show with Jeffery C. Waddington on “Is Complementarianism Tantamount to Misogyny? A Defense of Biblical Gender Roles in a Feminist Culture”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this gorgeous, gorgeous day on October 27th, 2017.

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I am so delighted to have back for the second day in a row in studio with me,

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Jeffrey C. Waddington, who is pastor of Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Lansdowne, Pennsylvania.

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He stayed in town for a little bit longer after attending yesterday's Iron Sharpens Iron radio pastor's luncheon, which as I mentioned yesterday, or as we were mentioning yesterday, was an enormous success.

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God was certainly good to us, and I have nothing but praise reports to give about the event, not necessarily true about things that occurred after the event, and I'll let you know about that.

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It's one of the reasons we're switching subjects today. We originally announced yesterday at the end of our interview with Jeff that we would be discussing today the validity of Roman Catholic baptism, not that we were claiming it is valid, we were taking a critical or opposing view, and that's one of the things that would put

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Jeff and I in a very rare situation where you have a Presbyterian and a Reformed Baptist agreeing on baptism, because as Jeff, I'm sure, would readily admit, although this was not historically necessarily the case, but in our day and age, to be opposed to Roman Catholic baptism amongst

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Presbyterians would put you in a tiny minority, am I right? Yeah, I think so. When Presbyterian pastors think about it, it's generally only if someone wants to become a member who's been, was born and baptized as an infant in the

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Roman Catholic Church, and are coming to become a member in an

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OP church, the session then is faced with the question, is that baptism valid?

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And of course it would be not just the OP church, but the PCA, the RPCNA, and most even conservative

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Reformed Calvinistic Presbyterians who would not be modern day ecumenists would still accept the

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Roman Catholic baptism. Yes, and we discussed some of that at length. In our previous interview.

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And we'll, Lord willing, in the future do the same follow -up on that. Right, well we're not doing that subject today, because I had learned after the pastor's luncheon yesterday,

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I was actually contacted by one of the owners of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, Patty Jennings, who informed me that there were a number of people posting nasty things about me and about the pastor's luncheon on Pennsylvania State Representative Steve Bloom's Facebook page.

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Steve Bloom, a friend of mine who is a devout Christian and who was our guest of honor yesterday, who is also running for Congress, apparently some folks who protested the fact that my pastor's luncheon was an exclusively male luncheon.

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The invitations were specifically to men in the ministry, and even though we did expand it to men who were in the deaconate and other leadership roles and so on, but it was exclusively a male luncheon.

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And a female Lutheran pastor, of course in the more liberal denomination of Lutherans, the

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ELCA, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, complained that she was not invited to this event.

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And some other feminists were chiming in.

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One, a woman who owns a local, or actually owns a number of local restaurants here in town, which are actually excellent restaurants.

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I can't complain about the restaurants. They're really the best in the area. There are a couple that would be on the same par.

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But anyway, she made a false accusation against me saying that the reason I didn't invite women to the pastor's luncheons was because that women are too distracting.

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And another feminist chimed in. I'm assuming that she concluded from that remark that I have no self -control.

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She's, I'm assuming, making a comment about lust there. And another feminist called me a lech.

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And you know, keep in mind these are people who don't even know who I am. And there have been a number adding to the list of people who were furious that I dare not invite women pastors to the luncheons.

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Well let's start off at the very beginning. And of course someone called me a misogynist, hence the title that we are addressing today.

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Is complementarianism tantamount to misogyny, a defense of biblical gender roles, and a feminist culture?

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And we are discussing this because I have been accused of misogyny because of this exclusively male luncheon that I've had.

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And of course that would mean anybody who views the complementarian understanding of gender roles to be the only biblical approach to office bearers and heads of households and so on.

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It's complementarianism. And if you could, Jeff Waddington, define that for our listeners.

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Well complementarianism is the view that men and women are equally made in the image of God, but that men and women are given different roles in the family, in culture, specifically in the church.

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I've been given a cinnamon roll, you've been given, no I'm just kidding. So that's what complementarianism is.

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In other words, not complement in say something nice, but complement is in complete.

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You know a man and a woman, husband and wife, primarily. That's the major image that we're talking about.

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They become complete because the two very different qualities that each have when they come together, they complement each other.

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And in fact, the actual phrase complementarian would defy the notion of misogyny, which is someone who looks down upon women with disgust and looks down upon them as inferior and so on.

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So to believe in complementarianism is merely to say that both genders are equal in God's sight, they just have different roles, just as a parent has a different role than a child in the home, and a teacher has a different role in a classroom than the student.

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In fact, you know there are many people who perhaps are even far more godly than their own pastors.

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You know, being a pastor, even though it's a unique role and the scriptures tell us that we have to submit to our elders who watch over us and are really responsible for our souls, that they have a unique role, but they are not superior or more worthy of heaven or looked upon as better humans by God.

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Correct. There's not what we would say is there's not an ontological difference, a difference about the person's being.

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It's not different. It's not as though man is, which is sometimes a view that was held even by some

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Christians in the early church, that man is more human than a woman.

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Yeah, that a woman was the property of a man and that kind of thing, viewed as chattel, just like chattel slavery.

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Right. But this is not at all what complementarianism is. But you know, but I think we've gone, we've jumped ahead of ourselves, because even though I had you on yesterday,

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I do want you to explain Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Lansdowne, Pennsylvania. Sure.

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Knox is a congregation of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in the Presbyterian of Philadelphia.

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We're, I'd say, about 20 minutes, half hour or longer, if the traffic is bad, from the

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Philadelphia airport. We're on the Blue Route. Those who are in the

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Philadelphia area would recognize that. That's the southern portion of Route 476 that goes from Clark Summit near Scranton all the way down to Chester, Pennsylvania, that highway.

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And we're toward the bottom end of it. And we have two services every

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Sunday. We have Sunday school after the morning service. My congregation is unique in that we only sing psalms.

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We don't have instruments, so there's no piano or organ, let alone drums or guitars.

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And that's not because your church can't afford them. No, that's their conviction.

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So it makes us unique within the OPC, but of course, historically, that was the standard practice of Presbyterian and Reformed churches up until the late 1700s, and then it began to change.

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But apart from that, it's a typical OPC congregation between 35 and 50 folk.

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When you come to visit, they are very warm and welcoming. I thought you said it was an

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Orthodox Presbyterian church. Well, you know,

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I'm just kidding. We're the only pure church. But then my brethren in the

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PCA will remind me that they're the purest church in America. But one thing that is very providential in that it's providential that I got that negative feedback, unexpected, completely unexpected, because I was unaware that that many people outside of the body of Christ and outside of conservative

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Christianity were even aware of the event. And in fact, the female

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Lutheran pastor who originally was complaining about this event said she was handed the flyer by a male

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Lutheran pastor who was so disgusted by the exclusivity, the male exclusivity of the gathering that he couldn't go, and why he thought that she would,

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I'm not even understanding why he handed her the flyer, but I guess just to have her join in on his disgust.

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So she was very upset that she was not invited in, and as one

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Christian woman who was a part of this thread very aptly put it, she said, women have

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Christian gatherings all the time that are exclusively for women, and you never hear men complaining about not being invited.

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And she said, I actually love it when we have women gatherings, because there are certain occasions when you just want to be together with sisters in Christ, and it's the same as with the brethren.

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And of course, now, the added factor in this, though, is that I do believe that the pastor is exclusively a male office, biblically.

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And we're going to get into the biblical reasons why after we hear some of the testimony of my guest,

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Jeffrey Waddington, because of the fact it's very, that's why I was saying it was very timely and providential that this kind of negative feedback would come while Jeffrey is in town and leaving tonight, but staying here long enough to be a part of today's program, because Jeffrey himself was raised in the

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Salvation Army, and the Salvation Army includes women in their pastorate.

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And so this was something that, this is an issue that Jeffrey became convinced that the

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Salvation Army was incorrect on. And now he is a complementarian, believing in the sole male headship in the

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Church of Christ in regard to authority over men. Women may have some roles of authority in the

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Church, but not over men. And so if you could tell us, and by the way, by my saying that,

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I am not besmirching or attacking or belittling the

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Salvation Army denomination, even though I have disagreements with them.

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There are many fine Christians in the Salvation Army. There are many fine Christians, some of whom have become my friends in the

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Church of God, General Assembly, the headquarters being in Findlay, Ohio, which is a, the only way

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I can think of describing it is a Wesleyan Baptist movement, but they are egalitarian in regard to the pastor role.

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They have women in the pastorate. And I seriously disagree with them on that, but having said that,

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I've met a number of fine Christian pastors and brothers and sisters in Christ in that denomination.

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So I'm not attacking or belittling, just disagreeing. And of course they disagree with me.

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It doesn't mean that they hate me or belittle me either. But if you could, Pastor Jeff, tell us something about your own background in the

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Salvation Army and your view of gender roles and how they evolved.

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And I mean that in the biblical sense. I was born into the

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Salvation Army. My parents were Salvation Army officers at the time. And I've been out for 23 years, so I'm not quite sure how it is now.

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But at the time, a Salvation Army officer had to be, if they were going to be married, had to be married to a

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Salvation Army officer. Wow. I didn't even know that. Yeah, that's what

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I grew up with. And one of the reasons for that is because you're moved around like the military at the will of the leadership.

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So you can't have a spouse who's got a job out in the world like as a teacher or as a whatever, because then it's harder to pull up stakes and move.

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That's just one practical outworking. So at the time, that was the case.

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My mom and dad were both ordained. Both would fill the pulpit. My dad typically preached 90 % of the time or 80 % of the time.

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But that will vary among couples depending on how they are gifted, I guess you might say, skilled.

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And do you know anything about the genesis of egalitarianism? Because I was told, and I don't know if the person who told me was correct,

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I was told that Booth, the founder of the Salvation Army, initially was not egalitarian.

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That's correct. His wife, Catherine, I guess was much more influenced by the

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Quaker tradition, convinced her husband of the legitimacy of female ministers.

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So from early days, if not the earliest days, the

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Salvation Army has ordained women. And in fact, they've had at least two generals.

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That is the person holding the highest command position within the

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Salvation Army over in London at the international headquarters. Now, what religious or theological or denomination?

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Oh, they're Wesleyan Armenian. Yeah. So William Booth, when he founded the Salvation Army, where was he coming from?

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He was the minister in the Wesleyan New Connection, or the Methodist New Connection, which was a spinoff from the mainline.

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We would call mainline, that's an anachronistic term, I realized. But the mother church,

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I'm assuming at some point had gone liberal. And so a group left that and became the

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Methodist New Connection. That's where he was ordained. And they wanted to call him to the pastorate, and he felt called to itinerancy.

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And so he was wondering what he would do. And he was walking down through the east end of London.

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And when he, if I remember correctly, and it's been a while since I've thought about this, so my memory could be failing me.

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He came across a group of Christians who were doing tent revival meetings on a burial ground, a

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Quaker burial ground, if I remember correctly. And they were the Christian Mission, or that's what they became known as.

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So he got to know them, and he became the leader of the Christian Mission.

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And eventually in 1878, they changed their name to the Salvation Army. And it's interesting, the

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Quaker connection, because like the Salvation Army, the Quakers do not practice the ordinances of the

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Christian Church. And that's why the Salvation Army doesn't, for the first 20 years they did. Wow. Infant baptism as well, and the

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Lord's Supper. But then they stopped, because I think of the Catherine Booth's influence and the influence of Quaker theology on her thinking.

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And so from the earliest days, the women have been ordained and have held positions of responsible leadership beyond even the local pastorate, within the

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Episcopal form of church government that the Salvation Army has. So you are raised in this denomination, and I know that you have given your testimony before, because it's kind of crucial to repeat it, because of the fact that we have our subject being so connected to your own background.

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How long did it take as a member of the Salvation Army before you began questioning the validity of women in authority roles in the church, having authority over men?

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Well actually, my mom was ordained, and my wife was ordained. I remember

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I was a Salvation Army officer myself for eight years prior to leaving, and it actually snuck up on me, if I may put it that way.

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I did a paper for, I was taking a course on New Testament theology, and I did a paper on the

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First Timothy 2 passage. I do not allow a woman to have authority, and I did that at Alliance Seminary, and that's what got me looking at the subject.

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And I didn't give it a lot of thought, because the paper I wrote said, this allows for the possibility of female ordination.

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So I had slipped from, it's necessary, to it allows for it. And then over time,

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I just, it was in the back of my mind, so that when, later on, after we had stepped out, and I came into the orbit of Reformed Christianity, and was introduced to the

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PCA in Ithaca, New York, and discovered that they did not believe in female ordination,

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I had to revisit not only Armenian doctrine, I had to revisit the female ordination issue.

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And I have to admit, because I had been stewing about it, or mulling it over, not stewing about it, because there was not an existential crisis for me.

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I'm a man, I guess that might account for that. But as it turns out, you know,

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I came to realize that what's there in the text, actually, and I had raised the issue as a

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Salvation Army officer in a couple of the, I had suggested the subject for discussion in what would be considered a theological journal within the

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Salvation Army at the time. I had suggested to the editor, maybe doing something on this, and he said, nah.

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So by the time I was introduced to the Reformed faith, I was already, you might say, prepared in God's providence to reconsider the issue, and I did.

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And so that's when I became Reformed, conservative Bible -believing

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Reformed, Presbyterian, and embraced a more,

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I believe, a more consistently biblical form of Christianity, I had to go back and look at this issue, and remember,

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I'm dealing with a mother at that point who was still alive, and a wife who is still alive, so this wasn't just an academic exercise.

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I had to walk through the issues, and talk things over with my folks, talk things over with my wife, never with the idea that I beat them over the head, because I don't believe in patriarchy either, which would be,

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I suppose, the other extreme, or the typical, in other words, as you already pointed out, man and authority in the church is not a blanket authority.

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The passages you see, the Apostle Paul and Peter addressing, specifically say women are subject to their husbands, not to every man in the congregation.

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And there might be folk who think those commands are that women should be subject to all men, and that's just not the case.

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Right, but at the same time, a woman, even though a woman is not to submit to every man in the congregation, obviously, that would be actually a serious violation of Scripture.

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She's not to have authority, though, over any man. Oh yes, of course, that's, I'm presupposing that, that women are not to have any authority over men.

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And of course, what's happened over the years is that even in more conservative

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Reformed circles or Reformed Aptos circles, you know, the culture, as we've discovered over the last day, the broader culture is not only not, they're not disinterested in what we're doing, they vehemently hate what we believe.

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Right, that's what you've discovered. See, if I were having a conversation with this woman, the female

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Lutheran pastor, I'd start out with, what, do you believe that the Bible is inerrant? I expect her to say no.

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Then I'd say, we have no further conversation, other than I would be obligated to evangelize you. The thing that's interesting, though, is that I'm assuming that the

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Salvation Army believes in the inerrancy. Well, in say North America, yes, but not uniformly.

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Okay, but there are indeed holiness Pentecostals and Wesleyans who affirm, and in fact have affirmed, women in ministry and women having authority over men even before the rise of feminism and liberalism.

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Yes, that's correct. These are groups that did not cave into outside pressures. These are groups that believe in the inerrancy of Scripture.

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In fact, one of the reasons why some of the holiness groups became Pentecostal is that they believed,

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I think wrongly, but they believed that to affirm biblical inerrancy was to affirm the miraculous, which, of course, we would agree with that part, but they would go further to say that the miraculous must be occurring today if it is biblically true, and therefore they believe in modern -day healings by faith healers and Christians doing the same miraculous or performing the same miraculous works as the apostles did, which that's where we would disagree with them.

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But these same people, though, was where I'm getting to. Many, not all, but many have historically believed in the ordination of women as pastors.

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Yes, because they've been taught how to read those passages which

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I think are quite clear in their limitation of church office to men. They've been taught,

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I'm trying to think back about how I thought of things, and the truth of the matter is in many instances

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I never thought gave it a thought because it was a settled issue. That's why I think when

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I brought up the idea of having a give and take on the topic in a publication, they didn't want to do that because it had already been a settled issue, and I understand that.

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And a publication of which? This was a Salvation Army publication. Oh, okay. But you're right, there are many godly people.

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I don't believe I became a Christian when I became Reformed. My parents, I believe, are now with the

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Lord by God's grace. I was brought up in a Christian home, and as I said to you yesterday,

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Chris, when folk ask me, those from my background, Wesleyans, they'll ask me, how did you end up Reformed?

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And as a friend of mine, the Rev. Dr. Craig Tropsil said—

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He was speaking tonight at the Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

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Right. He came from a Church of God Anderson background, and they're a Wesleyan. They're the denomination of Bill and Gloria Gaither and Sandy Patty and all those folk.

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And he came from that background, and somebody asked him, and he said, well, my parents taught me to to love

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God's Word, to depend upon God's Word, because it's the Word of God. And in it, we find the way of salvation through Jesus Christ, and my parents taught me that.

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And over time, obviously, I didn't leave the

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Salvation Army at the time over dissatisfaction with the Salvation Army.

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I left because I wanted to go back to school, among other things. And in the process,

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I became Reformed. And wasn't—I might be wrong here—but wasn't

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L. Martin in the Salvation Army before he became Reformed? He was. So I'm not the first.

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And by the way, to repeat, we're not here to really target the Salvation Army as some kind of a false group or something.

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We just disagree with them strongly on an issue, and it is a serious issue.

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But it is an issue, nonetheless, that is secondary to salvific matters.

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But it's important enough that we bring it up, especially since in our day and age of feminism, more and more people are going to be attacked.

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They're going to be faced with a decision on whether or not to cave into the feminist culture.

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In our case, unlike groups like the Salvation Army and the Wesleyan Holiness groups, who ordained women long before the rise of feminism, many churches today are caving in to the demands of the leftist culture.

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And some of them are fearing all kinds of losses, whether it be financial or property or membership in certain denominations.

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Well, I think that all Christians, Bible -believing Christians in this country, are facing that.

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It's already happening, we know this, with regard to bakers and photographers.

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How long will it be before all Bible -believing Christians are feeling it all the time?

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It could be here quicker than we even think now. But think about how quickly this has all come upon us.

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If you think of when I was, even 20 -30 years ago, I wouldn't have imagined all of what we're facing now.

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But here we are, having to, thinking of an equally troublesome thing was the

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Nashville Statement, which the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood produced a few months ago, remember?

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A biblical statement on human sexuality, which caused an uproar.

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Now, I have no surprise when liberal Christians respond this way, but when so -called

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Bible -believing Christians respond negatively toward something like the

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Nashville Statement, I have real concerns about the future of the

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Church in America. We're going to our first break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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Pastor's Study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am

39:03

.com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the

39:09

Pastor's Study by calling in with your questions. Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

39:16

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the Pastor's Study because everyone needs a pastor.

39:23

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with about 90 minutes to go is

39:29

Pastor Jeffrey C. Waddington of Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Lansdowne, Pennsylvania.

39:35

He's also a board member of Reformed Forum, and we are discussing the theme,

39:42

Is Complementarianism Tantamount to Misogyny? A Defense of Biblical Gender Roles in a

39:48

Feminist Culture. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

39:54

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, city, and state, and country of residence if you live outside the

40:02

USA, and only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter. And what

40:08

I'd like to do now before we go to any of our audience questions, because we do have some waiting, but we would like to go through some of the classic biblical texts that are at the root of the controversy on whether or not women are eligible to be appointed to office -bearing positions that involve authority over men and teaching men.

40:38

And just to clarify things, we've already made it clear that you and I are convinced from the scriptures that women are not to have authority over men.

40:48

There are some reformed folk, and I'm assuming other evangelicals that are not reformed, that may be conservative and may prohibit women from becoming elders and pastors and overseers, which

41:01

I believe, and I think you agree, are the same office. But there are those that would agree with that prohibition, but will nonetheless permit a woman to teach a mixed -gender bible study where there are men, adult men, present, and they do not see that as a conflict with the prohibition to the eldership or pastorate.

41:27

What is your opinion on that? Well, I think Paul doesn't give a—well, you could say in 1

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Timothy, which we're going to look at shortly, chapter 2, is what is Paul addressing? Is he addressing public worship?

41:44

And if he's only addressing public worship, then of course Sunday school is not public worship.

41:51

We're very clear about that in our circles, in the

41:58

Presbyterian, OPC circles. Sunday school is a very good thing, but it's not stated worship.

42:04

So you actually would permit a woman to teach men? No, I'm trying to clear the field. Well, there are variations, even as you've said.

42:17

It's not—I've tried to wrestle with this, but the truth is, Paul says, as we'll see shortly, that he limits the authority in the church to men.

42:31

Let me go to the text. I was going to wait to do this, but let me go to it since I'm asking you a question that seems to require going to the text.

42:38

Yeah, right. 1 Timothy 2, 11 and 12. The Apostle Paul says, let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.

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I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man.

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Rather, she is to remain silent. Right. Now, as you realize, the reason why

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I brought up the issue of public worship is that at the beginning of that section,

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Paul says in verse 8, I desire then that in every place that men should pray, lifting up, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling.

43:24

Likewise, also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel with modesty and self -control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but what is proper for women who profess godliness with good works.

43:38

That's the context for what you just read. Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.

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I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man. Rather, she is to remain quiet for Adam was formed first.

43:53

Okay, this is the logic that Paul is using. Then Eve and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

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Yet she will be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness with self -control. So in that passage,

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Paul is one, before we get to the limit, notice what he's saying, that women can learn.

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Okay, we realize that Jesus had women disciples. In fact, he was supported financially by women disciples who were well off, but the

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Gospels tell us that. Whereas some religions who have an extreme view of the separation of the genders don't even permit women to be present during teaching services or perhaps even worship services, but those would be extreme cases that are not the norm of Christianity.

44:51

Correct. So Paul is saying to learn. Now you're to do it with submission or in submission, with submissiveness, but you women let a woman learn quietly.

45:04

So you are to learn. Presumably Mary, when she sat at the feet of Jesus, didn't go on talking endlessly as some people we know tend to do, but she sat at the feet of our

45:17

Lord and learned from him. And Paul is saying that let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.

45:25

Okay, so that's a point not to miss. Then he says, I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man.

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That's a very clear statement. Rather, she is to remain quiet.

45:44

Some have suggested that that Paul was concerned with women who were talking all the time in worship.

45:51

And you know the thing that's ironic about that and somewhat humorous is

45:56

I don't understand how a feminist who views men who want to prohibit them from leadership as chauvinists, and yet they think it's okay to view women as people who can't keep their mouth shut during a worship service, and they're always chatting and gossiping and things like that, which is a demeaning way to generalize women.

46:20

I agree. So Paul, and of course this makes

46:25

Paul the bad guy, right? Jesus is loving and kind and understanding, and Paul is a mean curmudgeon.

46:32

No. If you notice, among the twelve disciples, they were all men.

46:39

Right. Whatever you want to make of it, that's a fact. It's just something to ponder, meditate upon.

46:47

But here, Paul makes it clear. By the way, long pauses of silence for rhetorical questions is not a good thing for radio.

46:55

Gotcha. Okay. Meditate upon that thought, though.

47:03

And remember that when Paul speaks, it's not his opinion. When Paul speaks, he speaks as the duly appointed representative of the

47:16

Lord Jesus Christ. What Paul says is as equally authoritative as what

47:21

Jesus says. That's why you don't find me using a red -letter Bible, because the red letters aren't any more authoritative than the black letters.

47:30

They are all equally authoritative. Yes, and sometimes it's ironic that the more liberal person would want to appeal only to the words of Jesus and not to someone like the

47:44

Apostle Paul, and yet the Apostle Paul's epistles—say that ten times fast—the

47:52

Apostle Paul's epistles are very clear and perhaps even much clearer on the issue of being saved by grace alone and the forgiveness offered to the worst of sinners than any other portions of the

48:09

Bible. I mean, he is very grace -focused, so it's ironic that a more liberal person would be trying to set

48:18

Paul aside. I would say I'm not surprised for a person who doesn't treat the

48:23

Bible as the inerrant, infallible Word of God to do this. But when you have someone who does affirm that about the

48:29

Word of God, you have to be operating with an arbitrary interpretive principle.

48:37

The way you are handling God's Word is, I think, defective or unfortunate.

48:45

Well, by the way, I don't know if you ever definitively answered my question as to whether or not you believe that a woman—whether or not a woman—can teach an adult mixed

48:55

Bible study. I would say it's not wise. It's not good. Okay.

49:01

But you're not at a point where you completely would prohibit it? Oh, I would. Okay. I'm just saying that there are

49:09

OPC—I'm sure there are OPC ministers who—or maybe there aren't. I'm not basing this upon any, you know, conversation.

49:17

Well, let me put it this way. If not in the OPC, I know for certain there are conservative Presbyterians who do allow women to teach mixed adult studies.

49:26

Right. So there is disagreement even amongst us who agree at this point that Paul is saying they would—I'm guessing they would say that Paul is talking about women teaching in public worship.

49:38

I'm guessing that's what they would say. Right. And I'm saying that while that's true, that that may be the context.

49:44

I think Paul's statement is more general than that. He doesn't say,

49:50

I don't allow a woman to teach in public worship. Right. That's not what he said. But at the same time—It's certainly true for public worship, but more.

49:58

But at the same time, I'm assuming you don't want to go too far either because—and

50:05

I, by the way, I agree with you. I don't believe that women should be teaching mixed adult Bible studies either.

50:11

But at the same time, unless people get the wrong impression, don't you think that there are times in social settings and one -on -one evangelism, or when you are having conversations with new believers that, just as it seems clear,

50:30

Priscilla, along with her husband Aquila, was involved in some kind of teaching, but it was not a formal office?

50:39

Right. See, that's what I was going to say. I want to be careful that I'm not understood to be saying that a husband and wife, they're doing a

50:48

Bible study for family or friends, and they gather in their home, that the woman can't say anything or even can't—maybe she knows the book better than her husband.

51:00

Like, for instance, a woman is on her lunch break at work—

51:06

And does a Bible study. Or even beyond that, you know, some male employee says,

51:13

I know you're a Christian. Is Jesus God? I mean, she can answer that. Right. Even though it's a man asking her the question.

51:21

So you have to understand, you know, there's also a bit of sanctified common sense that needs to be at work as we read

51:28

God's Word. If I use that expression, I mean directed by the Holy Spirit. And before we go to the break, perhaps if you could make this brief, do you believe that women are eligible for the diaconate?

51:43

And it's interesting that one of the most conservative Calvinistic teachers, world -renowned teachers and pastors and authors, who is one of my modern -day heroes, believes in female deacons, and that would be

51:59

John MacArthur. But he views that strictly as a servant role and not something that you're ordained to and so on.

52:06

But if you could— I don't believe that women should be deacons or deaconesses, to be more accurate.

52:13

I do not believe—certainly the Book of Church Order in the PCA and the OPC does not allow for it.

52:18

Even though some matters of deaconesses have been grandfathered in or grandmothered in?

52:26

Well, yes, this is through the 10th Presbyterian Church, and they, you know, they were grandfathered when the

52:34

RPCES, the Reformed Presbyterian Church Evangelical Synod, merged with the PCA back in the 70s or 80s,

52:42

I believe. But I think that's another issue in its own right, you know, but in terms of how you handle it.

52:54

But the Book of Church Order in the OPC, and unless it's changed in the

53:00

PCA the last time, the copy that I have admittedly is dated. But it does not allow women to hold office, and deacon is an office in the

53:12

Church. Now, yes, it's a serving office, and it may be very wise to have women assist the male deacons when they're serving women.

53:26

So the issue isn't can a deacon call upon women in the

53:32

Church to help him to serve, you know, but they're not the deacon.

53:39

They're assisting the deacon fulfill his function in a wise biblical way.

53:46

And let's go to the break right now, and we'll pick up right where you left off. If anybody would like to join us on the air, please send us an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

53:54

chrisarnson at gmail .com. We're going to be right back at bowling right after these messages, so do not go away.

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01:01:59

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, and today our guest, if you just tuned us in, is

01:02:06

Jeffrey C. Waddington, pastor of the Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Lansdowne, Pennsylvania, obviously named after one of the great reformers,

01:02:18

John Knox. I thought it was named after Fort Knox. Well, I wanted to make sure that people didn't think we were saying

01:02:24

K -N -O -C -K -S. Yes, that's right. It's named after the great John Knox, the reformer of Scotland.

01:02:31

Yes, and also you are a board member at Reformed Forum. Please quickly explain that.

01:02:36

Reformed Forum is an internet Christian education ministry targeted at the high end of theological conversation and instruction, but we are branching out with programs more geared toward the layperson as well.

01:02:56

In fact, we added a new program called Theology Simply Profound, which does that admirably.

01:03:06

And before we return to our discussion on, Is Complementarianism Tantamount to Misogyny, a

01:03:11

Defense of Biblical Gender Roles in a Feminist Culture, I just have some important announcements to make.

01:03:19

First of all, next month from November 17th through the 18th, and this is not restricted only to men in the ministry, as my luncheon was.

01:03:29

This is for every man, woman, and child. The Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology at the

01:03:37

Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quakertown, Pennsylvania, November 17th through the 18th on the theme for Still Our Ancient Foe, a reference to Satan from the

01:03:46

Great Reformation Hymn, A Mighty Fortress by Martin Luther. And the guests, or should

01:03:52

I say the speakers, include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant, who we were mentioning earlier, actually.

01:04:01

And I've got to get him on the show. If you would like to register for this conference, go to AllianceNet .org,

01:04:08

AllianceNet .org, and then click on Events, and then click on Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology.

01:04:15

God willing, I will see you there if you attend, as I am intending to man an exhibitor's booth for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio there.

01:04:24

I would love to meet as many of you in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience as possible, and I'd like to be reacquainted with those of you who

01:04:33

I've already met at other conferences that we've advertised here. And then, coming up in January, an event that I met a lot of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners that I've never met or heard from before, even many that never even submitted a question to the show.

01:04:50

I met a lot of you at the G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia last

01:04:55

January, and what a joy that was. I also became acquainted face -to -face, finally, with some of you who have been regularly submitting questions.

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And I also got to see some old friends that I haven't seen in years. It was such a joy. This January, 17th through the 20th, the

01:05:12

G3 Conference will be on the theme, Knowing God, a Biblical Understanding of Discipleship. The 17th is exclusively a

01:05:18

Spanish -speaking edition of the conference, and the 18th through the 20th is exclusively in English and features speakers such as Stephen Lawson, Votie Baucom, Phil Johnson, Keith Getty, H .B.

01:05:30

Charles, Jr., Tim Challies, Josh Bice, James White, Tom Askell, Anthony Mathenia, Michael Kruger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, Martha Peace, and Justin Peters.

01:05:41

If you'd like to register for the G3 Conference, go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com.

01:05:48

And as always, if you register for any of these events that I advertise or if you are merely contacting the organizations running them because you want more information, please let them know that you heard about those events from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:06:05

And now I have to do that uncomfortable thing that I really do not like doing, but it is an important thing.

01:06:12

If Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is to remain on the air, I have to remind you of how truly serious our financial situation is, how urgent the need is for us to receive new donations.

01:06:28

Thankfully, we just, after the luncheon yesterday, got a couple of organizations that had representatives present at the luncheon reassure me that they are going to be sending in donations.

01:06:43

And I hope that many more of you do that because we are literally and truly at the verge of going off the air.

01:06:51

That is not just some scare tactic to drum up more money or anything like that. We really are on the precipice of not being able to continue this program.

01:07:00

So if you really do love the program, you want it to remain on the air. You look forward to hearing it every day.

01:07:06

You are edified by the guests and topics. Maybe you find me annoying completely. Maybe you hate me, but I'm sure that you don't always hate the guests and topics that I have on the program.

01:07:20

And if you find this program a blessing, you don't want it to be a thing of history only and have it disappear from the airwaves and the internet, please consider donating to us.

01:07:31

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01:07:43

If you would like to advertise with us, please just send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line as long as whatever it is you're advertising is compatible with the theology expressed on this program.

01:07:55

It doesn't have to be exactly identical. It just needs to be compatible with the theology expressed.

01:08:01

In fact, my guest today, Jeff Waddington, we have so much in common and we are enjoying so much wonderful fellowship, but we are not exactly identical in our theology.

01:08:11

No, but I hope we're compatible. Yes, we apparently are a complementarian, but just send us an email, whether it's your church, your parachurch that you want to advertise, your business, your professional practice, just a special event you're having, chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:08:32

and put advertising in the subject line. And as always, never, ever, ever, if you're donating to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, please never, ever, ever siphon money out of the regular giving you're accustomed to to your church where you are a member, and it's not your church.

01:08:46

I'm hearing Bill Shishko in my ear right now saying, it's not your church, it's the church of the Lord Jesus Christ. Well, the church where you're a member, please never siphon money out of your giving to that church to give to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:09:00

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And please send regularly and monthly if you're able to, because we would love to remain on the air and have many more guests and topics addressed and continue to bless you who love this program.

01:09:41

All right, now we are truly back to our discussion with Pastor Jeff Waddington here in studio with me.

01:09:48

I always love it when pastors and other guests can actually be right here in the studio.

01:09:54

It's a lot easier to conduct an interview when you're face to face with a brother or sister and you're not communicating by the phone and dealing with phone problems and that kind of thing.

01:10:04

We are discussing is complementarian tantamount to misogyny, a defense of biblical gender roles in a feminist culture.

01:10:13

And going back to that classic passage in 1st Timothy 2 that we were addressing moments ago, before I go to any of our listener questions,

01:10:26

I'll repeat the text in 1st Timothy chapter 2 verses 11 and 12.

01:10:33

Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man.

01:10:41

Rather, she is to remain silent. Now, as a Salvation Army member before you became a Reformed Christian, how would you hear that text typically addressed?

01:10:52

Because obviously your former background was a denomination that permits females in authority positions over men.

01:11:05

Right. My own experience, and that's all I can speak to, would be to say that it was not addressed.

01:11:13

I don't mean that, for instance, I grew up under my father's and my mother's ministry, that it was ignored.

01:11:21

No, I know that they preached on it, but I honestly don't remember what they said.

01:11:26

I can tell you that generally speaking, the way to deal with this is to make it so specific to the

01:11:34

Ephesian context. In other words, they would be delving into the cultural background of the city of Ephesus.

01:11:42

They would be looking at pagan religions, the female priestesses involved in some of the pagan

01:11:52

Greco -Roman mystery religions, and things like that. And so they would simply say that this was a limitation on a particular problem in Ephesus at that time.

01:12:06

It was not to be generalized. And Paul blows that out of the water because he goes back to the garden. I remember in preparation for that paper

01:12:16

I wrote when I was going to Alliance Seminary in Nyack, New York, reading one book that was dealing with Paul's argument, and it was all over the map.

01:12:29

And I remember thinking, wow, at the very least, this is not sticking to the text. Paul very clearly grounds this, in this instance, primogeniture, which is the firstborn idea.

01:12:43

That is, Adam was created first, or formed first, then Eve. So that's the primogeniture principle.

01:12:51

And then Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Now the thing that's interesting about that, we can't go too far because of time limitations.

01:13:01

Even though he explains why, I don't understand that explanation, because you would think it would be more sinful to knowingly disobey

01:13:10

God. Well, it is. I don't think that Paul would deny that, because the issue he's dealing with is women teaching.

01:13:18

And he's saying that Eve was deceived by the conversation she had with the serpent, who

01:13:25

Moses in Genesis says was more subtle or craftier than any other creature that God had created.

01:13:33

So remember that in the Genesis account, in chapter 3,

01:13:40

Adam is present with her when she's having the conversation with the serpent. And Adam, as the prophet, priest, and king in the garden, should have kicked the serpent out of the garden and not allowed the conversation to be had.

01:13:57

He knew that the serpent was lying to him. So in other words, this doesn't let Adam off the hook. Remember, Adam's the federal head.

01:14:02

Eve is not. We as Christians discuss and proclaim that we are born with the sin of Adam.

01:14:11

We don't say the sin of Eve. Right. So Paul would not disagree with that point.

01:14:17

He's simply making the observation and building off of that, that in the particular conversation that Eve had with the serpent in the garden, she was deceived by the cunning of the serpent.

01:14:31

Adam knowingly sinned. But my point is that even though I don't understand why that would make males eligible for the pastorate and not females, even though I don't understand it, just as Paul rebukes those in Romans 9 who dare question why the potter would make some vessels for dishonor, why are you smiling?

01:15:02

Well, I know what you're getting at. The issue is... Who are you, old man, to talk back to God?

01:15:08

Right. The point is that our obedience to the Word of God is not to be predicated upon our ability to explain it when something is put forward straightforwardly.

01:15:20

In other words, we may not be able to tell someone why Paul said this, because it does mystify us, perhaps.

01:15:27

But the fact is, Paul said it. Now, do you believe that Paul is saying here, and this may be a matter of debate and disagreement amongst even people that are in lockstep many other ways theologically, but do you believe that because of Eve's being deceived, by imputation, the female gender is not eligible to become office bearers over men or have authority over men, or do you believe that there is something intrinsic about the female gender that lends itself to this being deceived as Eve was?

01:16:04

If you say that, then you would say that there is an ontological difference, so then we couldn't be complementarians.

01:16:11

Okay. I mean, if that's what you actually believe... No, I'm not saying... You, but if someone believed that, they couldn't be...

01:16:16

The latter. They couldn't be complementarians, because they've just said that there's something in the being of a female that makes her inferior.

01:16:24

In fact, there are those who share our views that only men may be appointed to the leader position over other men in the congregation, who would at times give very horrible reasons for that, that make me flinch, because they'll say things like men are more suited by nature to be leaders or to be preachers.

01:16:54

There are women who are better preachers in a physical and homiletical and oratory sense than men.

01:17:03

There are women who are better public speakers than their own pastors. I think my mother... I love my dad, but I think my mother was a better preacher teacher than my dad.

01:17:13

But that doesn't mean that she is worthy of that office or shouldn't... That's a bad way of putting it. That doesn't mean she's eligible.

01:17:20

Right. She knows that I loved her dearly. But it doesn't mean a woman is eligible for the office, just because she...

01:17:28

And she knows that now, because she's in heaven. But women are not eligible for an office just because they have the ability to perform those things.

01:17:38

Right. I would want to be very careful that I don't read into this or read out of this text or read into this text, rather, the idea that Paul is saying there is something metaphysically or ontologically inferior in women to assume that in every instance, a woman is inferior.

01:17:58

She's not inferior in any instance. It just happens to be the case that in the garden,

01:18:05

Eve was deceived. Remember, she looked at the tree and saw that it was good for food and that it was to be desired to make one wise.

01:18:15

And she took of the fruit of the tree and took a bite of it and gave it to her husband who was with her.

01:18:23

And he ate. Now, tell us about, for instance, the texts in Scripture where you have references to women prophesying.

01:18:38

And therefore, you will have egalitarians, you know, say, well, look here, we have women prophesying.

01:18:45

So how can you say that women cannot teach in public in a mixed assembly with men? Well, they'd have to ask the

01:18:51

Apostle Paul that. I'm not the one who spoke this or wrote this. The Apostle Paul did.

01:18:56

So the person they need to ask is Paul, not me. Now, if you're asking me, what do I think of those passages?

01:19:03

I have to say that, first of all, there are exceptions to the rule in the history of redemption.

01:19:10

You have Deborah, who's a judge in ancient Israel, right? And so she's an exception.

01:19:19

Although you don't, as far as I'm aware, we don't have any female priests and we don't have any female prophets or prophetesses or priestesses in the

01:19:30

Old Testament. And now the references to female prophesying in the

01:19:40

New Testament, what's the particular passage? Do they cite it? Well, I like, for instance, in specifically in 1

01:19:47

Corinthians chapter 11, the chapter 11, okay, verse five, where every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head.

01:20:00

So why is it that a woman with her head covered could prophesy?

01:20:07

Well, that's a good, again, I would have to do as you did earlier.

01:20:13

I don't understand absolutely everything about that passage, right? Because I'm not quite sure why a woman's head being uncovered is a disgraceful act in of itself, and how that's tied to angels watching.

01:20:30

But it is related to submission and how a wife would show submission to her husband.

01:20:41

Right, but what I'm assuming that you are under the opinion or the belief exegetically that the term here, prophesy, is something different than the role of what a teacher in a church would be.

01:20:58

This is obviously during a day and age when there was still extra -biblical revelation going on?

01:21:05

Well, there's revelation being given. You see, tongues, for instance, are untranslated prophecy.

01:21:16

And I would think that there were women who spoke in tongues, and that tongue, those unlearned human languages, not ecstatic languages.

01:21:27

I don't believe that's what Paul is talking about. And that the women, once the tongues are translated, they are now prophecy.

01:21:41

Remember, you have to tie this back to the Old Testament. Do you remember when the

01:21:49

Holy Spirit came upon the elders, and they started praising and glorifying

01:21:54

God in, I forget which, where, was it Leviticus or Numbers? Where Moses, yeah, he calls the elders, right, from each of the tribes to come and to go with him to up the mountain.

01:22:11

And they start prophesying, right? And there are two elders, or there were elders that were left behind.

01:22:18

They didn't get together, and the Spirit came on them. And what does

01:22:24

Moses say? I would that all men and women or all people would prophesy.

01:22:30

And of course, that's picked up by Joel, the prophet Joel, right?

01:22:36

And then it's picked up again by Peter on the day of Pentecost. And that's what we see happening in the early church in the foundational era of the church.

01:22:48

How we would tie all of that in, not every prophecy, of course, made it into the

01:22:56

New Testament. Right, well, what are some of the other texts that would prohibit women from the office bearing of those in authority?

01:23:09

Well, I mean, if you go back to 1 Timothy, okay, to after what we looked at, right?

01:23:19

If you go to the next chapter, chapter 3, and remember, chapter and verse divisions are not in the original text.

01:23:26

That's something that comes later. Qualifications for overseers. This saying is trustworthy.

01:23:33

If anyone aspires to the, it should be any man, aspires to the office overseer, he desires a noble task.

01:23:39

Wow, not pluralized. Therefore, an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife.

01:23:49

I know that we might have to give a little more specific translation now because of gender confusion, dysphoria.

01:23:59

Well, we don't need any further explanation. No, you and I, and hopefully our listeners don't, but if there's some out there, you need to know husband means male, the spouse of a wife who's a woman.

01:24:11

Okay, so you have all, and then you have further qualifications, of course, right? Sober -minded, self -controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

01:24:24

And those are nearly identical to the requirements for a deacon as well, which would also go back to your original understanding that the diaconate as an office is prohibited to work.

01:24:37

Correct. It says, and that follows in verse 8, the qualifications for deacons, right? Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double -tongued, and so on.

01:24:48

Now, how do you respond? Because I have heard, and I don't know how widely this excuse is used, but there are egalitarians will say that the language is really a generalization that could be equally applied to a woman must be the wife of one husband.

01:25:06

Well, and yes, that's what I was raised on, but that's not what he says. I know, but they will say that because there are many, even complementarians of the strictest kind who would say that the elder or bishop or overseer does not need to have children in the household because Paul is generalizing.

01:25:27

Well, I would agree with that. I don't believe that an elder or deacon have to be married. Well, that's why

01:25:33

I'm saying that they will say that they are generalizing, and the egalitarian will use the same argument. Well, he's just generalizing.

01:25:40

No, I think it's if Paul, what Paul is saying is that if you're married, you have to be the husband of one wife.

01:25:47

Okay, well, that's why. I don't, because if that's the case, if you have to be married with children, that leaves

01:25:52

Jesus out. Yeah, but Jesus wasn't an elder in a church, though.

01:25:58

Paul wasn't an elder in a church. Oh, he was an apostle. Yeah, well, that's a different role. No, apostles were elders.

01:26:04

Yeah, I guess you could, yeah, okay, okay, but not, he was not a localized elder in one congregation.

01:26:11

Neither was Peter, but he refers to himself as an apostle and an elder. Yeah, okay, all right.

01:26:17

I'm just going through the... No, no, no, you're asking legitimate questions because these are the things that will be raised, and I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I think you need to allow the clear statements to interpret the less clear statements.

01:26:30

That's the general rule of Bible interpretation, is that clear passages are to have authority to control our understanding of less clear passages.

01:26:40

Now, other than the response of the egalitarian that Paul is generalizing using principles such as monogamy and successful parenting, have you heard any other egalitarian response to that clear text that seems to be unequivocally prohibiting women from the office of an elder?

01:27:07

Well, I've already touched upon it. Catherine Clark Kroger years ago wrote a book on this passage where basically she's arguing that that the word for to exercise authority over alphantine in the

01:27:22

Greek means to exercise inappropriate authority. So, it's a slightly different argument as we say that's not what alphantine is not limited to inappropriate authority, it's all authority, any authority.

01:27:38

But I'm talking about the husband of one wife text that you just read.

01:27:45

The elder or overseer must be the husband of one wife. Right, I don't understand the word must to mean they must be married.

01:27:54

What I'm asking is, have you heard any other egalitarian response to that other than what

01:28:00

I just said, that he's using generalized language about being a monogamous married person?

01:28:05

Oh, you mean bible -believing egalitarians? Yeah, who like bible -believing egalitarians will say that could have easily been translated or interpreted,

01:28:15

I should say, as a wife must be the a woman must be the wife of one husband. That Paul is primarily addressing monogamy, not a man exclusively being the leader.

01:28:27

That means you must forget what he said earlier about I do not permit a man to teach.

01:28:32

Right, but I'm actually just asking you, do you know of any other arguments they have? Not that are coming to mind right now, but there must, there probably are.

01:28:40

I'd have to go back and look in the commentaries to see what, you know, what, because typically a good commentary will wrestle with alternative or contrary views and address them.

01:28:54

So that if I went back to a good first Timothy commentary that's dealing with the

01:29:00

Greek text, it will deal with all the historical, you know, all the things

01:29:05

I've addressed, I've talked about, so that it clears the clutter out of the attic, as it were, and addresses these questions.

01:29:16

I'm just doing this off the top of my head, so it's, you know, this, he realized I wrote this paper 27 or 28 years ago.

01:29:24

Right, you're talking about when you were a Salvation Army member. But of course, going back to the root of the issue being in the

01:29:32

Garden of Eden, correct, that kind of nullifies all the other arguments, not even kind of, it does nullify.

01:29:38

It's grounding it in the order of creation, and it's grounding it secondarily in the fall.

01:29:45

Right, and even if the fall doesn't make sense as a reason, that is the reason, and we can't question the

01:29:53

God -breathed words of the Bible. Paul is a divinely designated authoritative spokesman for the

01:30:03

Lord Jesus Christ, well, for the triune God, and what he says, by the way, is of equal authority to the words of Jesus.

01:30:11

It's not to diminish the authority of Jesus, it's to remind us that the authority of Paul is at least what, you know, it's equal to what is

01:30:22

Christ's, in terms of the, you know, different parts of the Bible. And we don't want to get into the practice, whether we disaffirm it, in theory, we sometimes fall into the practice of treating

01:30:38

Paul's words as less authoritative than Christ's words, and they're not. Sometimes people will cite where Paul will say, not

01:30:47

I, but the Lord, not the Lord, but I. In those instances, Paul is not distinguishing...

01:30:52

Like singleness. Right, Paul is not distinguishing between the Lord's word and his opinion, he's distinguishing between what the

01:31:00

Lord said, that is, Jesus said, in the flesh, in the days of his earthly ministry, and what the Lord is now saying through Paul.

01:31:07

That's the distinction he's making, not the distinction between revelation and mere opinion, which is often how people will treat, whether wanting to have levels of authority in the

01:31:21

Bible, they want to say, well, you know, Jesus has more authority than Paul, or more authority than Peter, or more authority than, you know,

01:31:29

John, whatever the case may be. We're saying that the whole Bible is equally authoritative.

01:31:35

That's not to say, and this, I want to cut this off at the past, this is not to say that there is not progressive revelation in the history of the giving of the

01:31:44

Word of God. It's simply to say, that is, that the New Testament, you know, completes and culminates the

01:31:51

Old Testament. That's not to... We're not wanting to deny that there's fuller revelation in the

01:31:58

New Testament than there is in the Old, in terms of the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ. Okay, well, let's go to our final break right now.

01:32:06

I'm only going to be playing two ads, so we'll be back very quickly, and so don't go away, God willing, we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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01:35:13

That's liyfc .org. Welcome back.

01:35:20

This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, we have been for the last 90 minutes interviewing

01:35:26

Pastor Jeffrey C. Waddington of Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Lansdowne, Pennsylvania, and board member of the

01:35:34

Reform Forum. We have been interviewing him on the subject, Is Complementarianism Tantamount to Misogyny?

01:35:42

A Biblical Defense of Gender Roles in a Feminist Culture. And if you'd like to join us, we have 25 minutes more of this discussion, and there are several of you waiting to have your questions asked and answered, and we'll get to you one by one now as long as time permits.

01:35:57

But if you'd like to get in line, send us an email as quickly as you can before we run out of time to chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

01:36:04

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And as always, please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:36:13

USA. We have actually a comment, not a question, from Erin in Indianapolis, Indiana, and she says,

01:36:22

Hi Chris, I'm finding real comfort in the scriptural truths in today's discussion and agree with you completely as a lady.

01:36:31

I'm disturbed, even angered, by the attacks you describe by females about whom you invited to your own private event.

01:36:39

Thank you for standing for the truth. Well, thank you very much, Erin, for a very encouraging word, and I did not pay

01:36:46

Erin to write that. And I really appreciate that very much.

01:36:51

Thank you so much, because it is an encouragement in the midst of all that has been said by those who opposed my luncheon.

01:37:02

Thank you very much. And we have also David in Ada, Ohio, who says,

01:37:12

I understand verses 12 through 4 as you are explaining, but verse 15 isn't exactly clear.

01:37:19

Could you explain verse 15? Thank you. And 1 Timothy 2 .12, and if we go down to verse 15, but women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in the faith and love and sanctify with self -restraint.

01:37:35

Well, of course, that is obviously teaching, as the Mormons teach, that women are saved by having children.

01:37:43

No, what is that? I still don't understand. Yeah, that is an interesting, that's a good question.

01:37:50

And the truth is, we may be a tad bit mystified. One explanation, which

01:37:56

I think has some merit, but I'm not sure that it's fully convincing or satisfying, maybe the better word, is that what

01:38:05

Paul is saying is that because of the context in Ephesus, there are two extremes that go on in Greco -Roman religion and morality.

01:38:18

That is absolute asceticism, which is to deny the legitimacy of sex within marriage, and then there's the other extreme, which is sex all the time, whenever I want it, with whoever

01:38:29

I want it, or whatever I want it with. So there's the two extremes, and Paul may simply be responding to the ascetic side by saying that having children does not prevent a woman from being saved, because they might have been teaching, which was a common philosophical view, that material is bad, the spirit is good.

01:38:58

So therefore, material is bad, that means the human body is bad. And if you're a woman, that means you're carrying more, you're carrying children, giving birth to children, that might undermine your access to salvation.

01:39:20

And Paul is simply saying that having children does not cut you off from the possibility of being saved.

01:39:30

Now, I think that's true, that that is true, that having children does not cut you off from the possibility of being saved, which is a really good thing, because my mother, and my sisters, and my wife, and lots of married women who've had, and other women have had children who have come to faith in Christ later on, would be cut off from salvation if that is not the case.

01:39:55

I don't know that that's exactly what, because if you look in the context, we're talking about the deception of Eve.

01:40:06

So, yet she will be saved through childbearing. I don't think that means, well, by means of childbearing, or that she will be saved in spite of giving birth to children.

01:40:17

Does saved even mean salvation in the sense of... Well, right. ...of entering into...

01:40:25

Right, right, because obviously, there are words in the Scriptures that have different meanings with being used, while using the same word.

01:40:34

Correct. We save bottles, right? We even use the word redemption with regard to, if you have a bottle redemption law, you take your bottles back to the store, and you get a nickel, or whatever it is that you get now, right?

01:40:46

And James, in his epistle, talks about how we are justified by our works.

01:40:52

That has nothing to do with being justified by God... Right, correct. ...in the sense of imputation, and being worthy of heaven.

01:41:00

I think this also may be tied, redemptive historically, to the promise given to Eve that she's the mother of all, she's the mother of all living.

01:41:13

And remember, she was, in Genesis 3 .15, the promise was given that through her, the seed of the woman would eventually crush the head of the seed of the serpent.

01:41:25

But of course, Christ was already in heaven at the right hand of the Father when this is written.

01:41:30

Correct. But it could be that Paul is alluding to that promise here.

01:41:40

And if that's the case... Even though the seed already was born? Yeah. But remember, he also says at the end of Romans, in chapter 15 or 16, that soon, you will crush

01:41:51

Satan's head under your feet, he says to the Romans. So you see there's a continued...

01:41:57

In other words, you have, beginning with Genesis 3 .15, you have an antithesis between the seed of the woman, that is believers, and the seed of the serpent, unbelievers.

01:42:08

That continues until Christ returns in his second coming. That hasn't changed because he came the first time.

01:42:14

Now ultimately, he's the seed, singular, that crushed the head of the serpent, that is

01:42:23

Satan, at the cross, in particular. Now, there's a sense, there's an analogical sense in which we continue as believers to be the seed of the woman, because we are united to the seed.

01:42:38

Okay. Well, I think that we should actually move on because that's not even really addressing what we are...

01:42:43

But that's tied into Galatians 3 and 4. Right. Because even people, biblical scholars on both sides of the egalitarian issue, disagree on what that means.

01:42:54

So this is not even really pivotal to the topic. Here we go. We have...

01:43:01

I'm sorry, not Jeff. We have Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. How does

01:43:07

Jeff distinguish his support of complementarianism from patriarchy, the latter of which has been unapologetically defended and supported by the likes of Tim Bailey, Doug Wilson, and others?

01:43:20

And I'll have you answer that before I move on to Ted's second question. Well, I reject patriarchy because patriarchy is generally,

01:43:29

I would say, and I could because it's not a subject I've dealt with a lot, not had...

01:43:35

You do believe in male headship in the home and in the church. But when I use the word patriarchy,

01:43:42

I mean treating women like dirt. And that has happened. And obviously a

01:43:48

Christian supporting patriarchy would not agree with that definition. Right. That's what

01:43:54

I mean when I use the word. I'm speaking about my use of the word, not someone else's use of the word.

01:44:01

When I'm using the word patriarchy, I mean drawing illegitimate conclusions from Paul's limitation of authority in the church and the home.

01:44:14

Right. But you do wholeheartedly believe in exclusive male headship in the home and the church.

01:44:22

Yes, I do. And it does not mean that a man should be so stupid as to not delegate the responsibility of decision -making to his wife in many areas in the home and in the marriage.

01:44:34

Right. But see, that patriarchy, as I use the expression, would usually mean that there wouldn't be any of that.

01:44:43

Now, again, there may be a more technical definition, but the way that I use the expression, patriarchy is taking the limitations that Paul gives and applies them to areas.

01:45:00

For instance, Paul does not say that a woman can't be president of the United States.

01:45:06

Although the namesake of your church, John Knox, believed that - Well, I don't agree with John Knox.

01:45:12

There are many things I don't agree with John Knox about, which you know some of them. Right. And John Knox did not, to continue my thought, did not believe that a woman should be in political office or be in the throne of Great Britain or anything like that.

01:45:27

That's true. And I don't think that he, and by the way, when he wrote the last trumpet blast against the monstrous regiment of women and regiment -

01:45:38

Which are the women in the view, for any of our listeners who are unfamiliar with it. Well, and this is true. But what

01:45:45

I mean is that John Knox, when he wrote that book, as I understand it, irritated not a few other reformers, including

01:45:53

John Calvin. So you see, there were differences among the reformers, which we mentioned yesterday, and this would be one of them.

01:46:00

I think that we need to be careful when we are looking at when the scriptures limit the authority of a woman in the church, that that should not be generalized in ways that the scriptures themselves don't support.

01:46:18

Right. And going back again to Aquila and Priscilla, you don't have

01:46:23

Priscilla just being a silent woman cowering in the corner waiting for Aquila to yell out for his next beer.

01:46:31

Right. In other words, let's not consider Archie and Edith Bunker to be complementarian role models or poster children.

01:46:41

Right. And well, actually,

01:46:46

Archie had a lot more authority in his own mind than he actually did when he was on the show.

01:46:52

True. And then the second question that Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama has is, second, how does

01:47:02

Jeff sort out some of the less clear applications of complementarianism in pastoral work?

01:47:08

For example, I heard two pastors who identify as reformed on a podcast literally laughing off a suggestion that a pastoral search committee might include a single woman in an advisory, not voting role only.

01:47:25

Does Jeff think that this would be a silly idea? If so, how would we decide where to draw the line without overdrawing that line?

01:47:34

I guess he means a woman that was on the pastoral search committee to choose a person, a man worthy of the office.

01:47:43

I don't think there's any problem with having women on a pastoral search committee because a pastoral search committee is not necessarily made up of church officers.

01:47:51

Now, in most instances, church bylaws will require that a percentage of the pastoral search committee be the session or whatever you name that particular elder board.

01:48:00

And there are reformed congregations where the whole congregation votes on a candidate for pastoral office.

01:48:07

Understand that in Presbyterian circles, the pastoral search committee is only recommending to the session, the candidates.

01:48:16

The session presents the men to the congregation to vote. So the pastoral search committee isn't voting on the final determination.

01:48:25

They are simply sorting. They are part of the process of sorting through the plethora, the multitude.

01:48:34

And in many instances, an OP church might get 50 applicants. You've got to find a way to sort through them.

01:48:43

And there's no reason why a single woman cannot be on that board, that search committee, because it's not made up simply of elders or deacons.

01:48:59

And, of course, there are times where a woman might know something about a candidate that the men of the church need to know.

01:49:08

Correct. And for instance, well, related to this, my wife was the church treasurer at Calvary OPC in Ringo's.

01:49:15

The church treasurer is not a church officer. She might, the church treasurer might be an officer of the trustees.

01:49:22

But the board of trustees answers to the session in a Presbyterian setting, the not the other way around.

01:49:31

And leaving the Presbyterianism aside, I'm assuming you believe that the Bibble, the

01:49:38

Bible would not prohibit a woman from being a part of a pastoral search committee.

01:49:44

No, I don't think so. You'd have, I mean, someone might be able to make an argument, but I've never heard one.

01:49:51

Yeah, right. I mean, if that role insinuated, implied, or actually straight out revealed that her position had an authoritative nature to it over men, then it would be wrong.

01:50:07

Right. At that point, then you'd have... Like if that woman said to a male in the church, you have no say in this, my opinion is more valuable,

01:50:17

I'm sorry, step back. Right, then that person would be eligible to be removed.

01:50:23

Right. Well, thank you, Ted, in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. Keep sending in insightful questions.

01:50:29

Yes, that's a good question. And keep listening to Iron Trip and Zion and spreading the word about this program in Tuscaloosa, Alabama and beyond.

01:50:37

And before we run out of time, I'd like to give you like five minutes or so of uninterrupted time to unburden your heart, to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today in regard to this very controversial topic, a topic that divides brothers and sisters in Christ, sadly, but an important topic that we must stand firmly on what we believe are biblical convictions are.

01:51:06

And before I let you continue with five minutes, me being an authority here, um, the one thing

01:51:21

I wanted to say that we didn't address, unlike some of the more historic denominations that go back to perhaps the 18th century, where women were allowed in leadership, such as the

01:51:36

Wesleyan Holiness and the Salvation Army. Uh, don't you believe that the hermeneutic that many modern day denominations and churches and congregations and fellowships, the hermeneutic that is being used to justify female office bearers is the same identical hermeneutic that leftists use to legitimize homosexuals as office bearers and even as legitimate born -again believers?

01:52:11

Yes, in fact, this was an issue when I was trying, I was involved with a Bible study a few years ago in an attempt to plant a church.

01:52:21

This came up and it was interesting because everybody that was attending that Bible study that we were praying and hoping would become a church plant were there because they were dissatisfied with their mainline denominations that were caving in on the homosexual agenda.

01:52:39

Uh, but they were all in favor of female ordination. And I said, don't you see that this is the same hermeneutic, the same interpretive process?

01:52:48

You've simply drawn an arbitrary line as to how far you will go. But if you were, and I'm glad that's a happy inconsistency.

01:52:58

However, uh, the logic of your position is that I don't like what

01:53:05

Paul says here. So I will explain it away. That's what they're doing.

01:53:11

You know, they may not realize it, but that's really what they're doing. So therefore others over here say,

01:53:18

I don't like what Paul says, so I'm going to explain it away. Now that, or they will just simply say, that's what

01:53:24

Paul said, but he's wrong. I actually prefer scholars and people who say, yes, you're right.

01:53:31

That's what Paul says. Paul says, I do not allow a woman to have authority over a man, but he was wrong.

01:53:38

Oh, you know, one, one last thing that I forgot was an egalitarian, um, uh, response to that, that I have heard is that the egalitarians will say that a woman is not to usurp or rob authority from a male.

01:53:57

That's actually what I, what I was talking about with Cath, Catherine Clark Croker, the Al -Fentane, uh, to, to exert illegitimate authority.

01:54:07

The word Al -Fentane does not have the, the, the, the illegitimate aspect.

01:54:12

It's simple authority. So that was a dispute, uh, within the broader evangelical community about, about the

01:54:20

Greek. And, and so the issue is not whether a woman should exercise, uh, shouldn't exercise this kind of authority over a man.

01:54:30

Paul is saying you shouldn't exercise the authority period over a man in the church.

01:54:36

Well, do you forgive me for not remembering that you said that? Yes, brother. Well, it, it, you, you phrased it in a, in a much more intelligible way.

01:54:45

So I appreciate the fact. A layman's, a layman's way. A much easier way to grasp. Uh, but that was the, that was the gist of the argument.

01:54:53

Uh, you may, you may remember cause you're closer to my age, but back in the eighties, there was this whole debate over headship, a source and Wayne Gruden was involved.

01:55:06

You may remember, and he was saying that source involves authority. It's not just origin, you know, where something comes from.

01:55:13

It's also, uh, stressing, uh, authority over something. Uh, and that, that was also involved in this whole context.

01:55:22

Uh, and it's, it's, um, uh, anyway, so you were going to give me five minutes, uh, which we have exactly,

01:55:30

I believe, according to my watch. Yes. So, uh, I would say as we've, as you've already said, uh, those who disagree with us, um,

01:55:42

I believe that, that, that having women in positions, uh, uh, officer positions, which means pastor, elder, or deacon, uh, any of those, or minister, elder, deacon, however you want to, to, to, to label them, that, that those are offices for men only.

01:56:03

That doesn't mean that men are ontologically superior to women. That's not what

01:56:09

Paul argues in verse, uh, verses, uh, 1 Timothy 2, where he's dealing with Adam and Eve.

01:56:17

Uh, however, he does limit that office, those offices to men.

01:56:26

While it is true that we might be able to read in the qualifications for elders and deacons, you might say, well, we could simply, we can say, we can reverse this and, and say, well,

01:56:39

Paul is saying it should be a man, a husband of one wife. It could also be convertible to a wife of one husband.

01:56:46

Well, that's certainly, that's certainly true in logic, but it's not what

01:56:51

Paul says. So, at that point, we're going beyond what Paul says. But going back to the,

01:56:58

I would want to, to, to stress that, that this is a matter,

01:57:03

I believe, of biblical, of obedience to God's Word, that's all. And I want,

01:57:09

I want Christians across this land and around the world to, to be obedient to God's Word.

01:57:18

I pray that that's true in my life. I know it's not, I'm not perfect. I, there are many things that must be brought under the

01:57:28

Lordship of Christ and renewed daily. I remind myself through the reading of God's Word, or the

01:57:36

Holy Spirit reminds me through the reading of His Word, that there are areas of my life which need to still be worked on.

01:57:46

But this is, this seemed, this is an issue that, that because the culture is against us, we see not only in this area, but in the other areas that we've already talked about, the church is caving in, is folding like a cheap suit.

01:58:02

And it's, and it's nerve -wracking. And now we, we, we all know that we shouldn't put trust, our trust in princes, that is, in, in fellow human beings, although we, we want to be careful how we understand that.

01:58:16

The Lord isn't saying, saying be cynical. The Lord is saying ultimately your trust has to be in Him and not in your fellow human beings, because we're, we're sinful, fallible human beings.

01:58:29

Even those of us who are saved by grace, we still are fighting against the world, the flesh, and the devil.

01:58:39

However, there are brothers and sisters who are on the opposite side of this issue who are believers.

01:58:48

I literally have brothers or I have sisters who are on the opposite side of this issue.

01:58:53

And one last thing very quickly, since we are going to be out of time in seconds, is that very often the fault is,

01:59:00

I'm not saying this is a legitimate reason for women to violate the scriptures, but men have so often done a horrible job fulfilling their roles in the scripture, that it has given a gateway for these things to occur.

01:59:15

That's correct. Well, we're out of time, and I want to make sure that our listeners have the, all the contact information, the

01:59:21

Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Lansdowne, Pennsylvania can be contacted at knox -presbyterian .org,

01:59:29

that's k -n -o -x -presbyterian .org, and the Reformed Forum can be found at reformedforum .org,

01:59:38

reformedforum .org, say that 10 times fast, and it's been such a pleasure having you in studio.

01:59:44

I look forward to you returning. I hope that everybody listening has a wonderful, safe, and blessed weekend and Lord's Day, and I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater