October 27, 2017 Show with Jeffery C. Waddington on “Is Complementarianism Tantamount to Misogyny? A Defense of Biblical Gender Roles in a Feminist Culture”

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The Backlash Over an All-Male Pastors Luncheon

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida. And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this gorgeous gorgeous day on October 27th 2017 I am so delighted to have back for the second day in a row in Studio with me Jeffrey C. Waddington who is pastor of Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Lansdowne, Pennsylvania.

He stayed in town for a little bit longer after attending yesterday's iron sharpens iron radio pastors luncheon. Which as I mentioned yesterday or as we were mentioning yesterday was an enormous success.

God was certainly good to Us and I have nothing but praise reports to give about the event not necessarily true about things that occurred After the event and I'll let you know about that. It's one of the reasons we're switching subjects today.

We originally announced Yesterday at the end of our interview with Jeff that we would be discussing today the validity of Roman Catholic baptism not that we were claiming it is valid that we were taking a critical or opposing view and that's one of the things that Would put Jeff and I in a very rare Situation where you have a Presbyterian and a reformed Baptist agreeing on baptism.

Because as Jeff I'm sure would readily admit although this was not historically necessarily the case but in our day and age. To be opposed to Roman Catholic baptism baptism amongst Presbyterians would put you in a tiny minority.

Am I right?

Yeah, I think so when when Presbyterian pastors think about it is generally only if someone wants to become a member who's been Was born in in baptized as an infant in the Roman Catholic Church and are coming To be become a member in an OP Church Session that is faced with the question is that baptism valid and of course, it would be not just the OP Church.

But the PCA the RPC and a and all and most even conservative a Reformed Calvinistic Presbyterians who would not be modern-day Ecumenists would still accept the Roman Catholic baptism.

Yes. And we discussed some of that at length in our previous interview and we'll Lord willing in the future do the same follow up on that.

Right, yeah, well what we're not doing that subject today because I had learned after the pastor's luncheon Yesterday, I was actually contacted by one of the owners of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service Patty Jennings who informed me that there were a number of people posting nasty things about me and about the pastor's luncheon on Pennsylvania State Representative Steve blooms Facebook page.

Steve bloom. A Friend of mine who is a devout Christian and who was our guest of honor yesterday? Who is also running for Congress? Apparently some folks who protested the fact that my pastor's luncheon was An exclusively male luncheon.

The invitations were specifically to men in the ministry and Even though we did expand it to men who were in the diaconate and another leadership roles and so on. But it was exclusively a male luncheon and a female Lutheran pastor, of course in the more liberal denomination of Lutherans the ELCA Evangelical Lutheran Church in America Complained that she was not invited to this event and and some other feminists.

Were chiming in one a woman who owns a local Actually owns a number of local restaurants here in town. Which are actually excellent restaurants. They can't complain about the restaurants. That's they're really the best in the area.

There are a couple that would be in the same par but anyway, she made a false accusation against me saying that the reason I didn't invite women to.

The.

The pastor's luncheons was because that women are too distracting and another feminist chimed in I'm assuming that she concluded from that remark that I have no self-control I mean she's I'm assuming making a comment about lust there and Another feminist called me a lech and you know, you keep in mind.

These are people who don't even know who I am and there have been a number adding to the list of People who were furious that I dare not invite women pastors To the luncheons. Well, let's start off at the very beginning and of course someone Called me a misogynist.

Hence the the title that we are addressing today is is clump is complementarianism tantamount to misogyny a defense of biblical gender roles and a feminist culture and We are discussing this because I have been accused of misogyny because of this Exclusively male Luncheon that I've had and of course that would mean anybody who views the complementarian Understanding of gender roles to be the only biblical Approach to office bearers and heads of households and so on.

It's complementarianism and if you could.

Jeff Waddington define that for our listeners. Well complementarianism is the view that men and women are equally Made in the image of God but that that men and women are given different roles in The family in in culture specifically in the church.

I've been given a cinnamon cinnamon roll. You've been getting I'm just kidding. So that that's what. Complementarianism in other words. Not compliment in say something nice but compliment is in complete.

You know, you know a man and a woman they complement husband and wife, right? Primarily, that's the the major image.

That we're talking they become complete because the two very different Qualities that yes have when they come together, right? They complement each other, right? And The in fact the the actual phrase Complementarian would defy the notion of misogyny, which is someone who looks down upon women with disgust Right and looks it down upon them as inferior You know and so on.

So to believe in complementarianism is merely to say that both Genders are equal in God's sight they just have different roles just as a parent has a different role than a child in the home and.

A.

Teacher has a different role in a classroom than the student. There's just correct. In fact, you know, there are many people who perhaps are even far more godly than their own pastors. You know being a pastor Even though it's a unique role and the scriptures tell us that we have to submit to our elders who watch over us and are Really responsible for our souls.

That they they have a unique role but they are not Superior or more worthy of heaven or looked upon as better humans by God.

There's not what we would say is and there's not an ontological difference a Difference about the person's being. It's not different. It's not as though man is. Which is sometimes a view that was held even by some Christians in the early church.

That man is more human than a woman.

Yeah, that a woman was the property of a man and that kind of right. Judas Chattel just like a chattel slavery, right? But this is not at all what complementarianism is. But you know, but I think we've gone.

We've jumped ahead of ourselves because even though I had you on yesterday, I do want you to Explain. Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Lansdowne, Pennsylvania.

Sure, Knox is a congregation of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in the Presbyterian of Philadelphia. We're I'd say about 20 minutes. Half hour or longer if the traffic is bad from the the Philadelphia Airport.

We're all off of the we're on the blue route. Those who are in the Philadelphia area would recognize that that's a southern portion of Route 476 that goes from Clark Summit Near Scranton all the way down to Chester, Pennsylvania that that highway and we're toward the bottom end of it.

And we we have two services every Sunday. We have Sunday school after the morning service.

Of.

The my congregation is unique in that. We only sing psalms. We don't have instruments. So there's no piano or or Organ, let alone drums or guitars and that's not because your church can't afford them.

No, it's a day. That's their conviction, right? And so and so it makes us unique within the OPC. But of course historically that was the standard practice of Presbyterian and Reformed churches up until I.

Late.

1700s and then it began to change. But other you know apart from that it's a typical OPC congregation between 35 and 50 folk. When you when you come to visit they are very warm and welcoming.

So you said it was an Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

Well, you know, I'm just kidding we're the only pure church. But then our my brother of my brethren in the PCA will remind me that they're the purest Church in America, right.

But.

Male-Only Ministry Gatherings and the Meaning of Complementarianism

One thing that is very providential. In that it's providential that I got that negative feedback unexpected completely unexpected because I was Unaware that that many people outside of the body of Christ and outside of conservative Christianity were even aware of the event.

And in fact the the Lutheran pastor the the female Lutheran pastor.

Who.

Originally was complaining about this event said she was handed the flyer. By a male Lutheran pastor who was so disgusted by the exclusive it exclusive.

Exclusivity.

Exclusivity the male exclusivity of the gathering that He couldn't go and why that why he thought that she would. I'm not even understanding why he handed her the flyer but um, I guess just to have her join in on his disgust, but.

So she was very upset that she was not invited in and as one Christian woman who was a part of this thread. Very aptly put it. She said women have Christian gatherings all the time that are exclusively for women and you never hear men complaining about not being invited.

And she said I actually love it when we have women gatherings. Because there are certain occasions when you just want to be together. With sisters in Christ and it's the same as with right the brethren, of course.

Now the added factor in this though. Is that I Do believe that the pastor is exclusively a male office. Yeah, biblically and I'm we're gonna get into the biblical reasons why? After we hear some of the testimony of my guest Jeffrey Waddington.

Because of the fact it's very that's why I was saying it was very timely and Providential that this kind of negative feedback would come while Jeffrey is in town and and Leaving tonight, but but staying here long enough to be a part of today's program.

Because Jeffrey himself was raised in the Salvation Army and the Salvation Army includes women in their pastorate and so this was something that. This is an issue that Jeffrey became convinced. That the Salvation Army was incorrect on and now he is a complementarian believing in the soul.

Male headship in the Church of Christ in regard to authority over men. Women may have some roles of authority in the church, but not over men and.

And.

So if you could tell us and by the way that by me by my saying that I am NOT besmirching or attacking or belittling the Salvation Army Denomination even though I have disagreements with them. There are many fine Christians in the Salvation Army.

There are many fine Christians. And some of whom have become my my friends in the Church of God. A General Assembly the headquarters being in Findlay, Ohio, which is a The only way I can think of describing it is a Wesleyan Baptist movement.

But they are egalitarian in regard to the pastor role. They have women in the pastorate and I seriously disagree with them on that, but Having said that I've met a number of fine Christian pastors and brothers and sisters in Christ in that denomination so I'm not attacking or belittling just disagreeing and Of course, they disagree with me doesn't mean that they hate me or belittle me either but if you could pastor Jeff tell us something about your own background in the Salvation Army and your view of Gender roles and how they evolved and I mean that in the biblical sense.

I.

Was born into the Salvation Army my parents were Salvation Army officers at the time. And I've been out for 23 years. So I'm not quite sure how it is now, but at the time. A Salvation Army officer had to be if they were going to be married had to be married to a Salvation Army officer.

Wow, yeah, I didn't know that that's Stan. I mean, that's what I grew up with. So they'd be and then the reason for one of the reasons for that is because you're moved around like the military at the will of the leadership, so you can't have a spouse who's got a you know a job out in the world like as a teacher or as a You know, whatever because then you know, it's harder to pull up stakes and move.

That's just one practical out working so that. At the time that was the case my mom and dad were both ordained both would fill the pulpit my dad. Typically preached to you know, 90 of the time or 80 of the time.

But that that will vary among couples depending on you know, how they are gifted. I guess you might say.

Skilled and you know anything about the genesis of Egalitarianism. Because if I was told and I don't know if the person who told me was correct. I was told that Booth the founder of The Salvation Army initially was not egalitarian.

That's correct. His wife Catherine.

I.

Guess was much more influenced by the Quaker tradition. Convinced her husband of the legitimacy of female ministers. So From early days earliest days if not the earliest days the Salvation Army Has ordained women and in fact, they've had at least two generals.

That is the the person holding the highest command position within the Salvation Army over in London at the International Headquarters. Know what.

Religious or theological or denomination? Oh, they're Wesleyan Armenian. Yeah, so William Booth when he founded the Salvation Army, where was he coming from?

He was he was the minister in the Wesleyan new connection or the Methodist new connection, which was a Spin-off from the mainline. We would call mainline. That's an anachronistic term. I realized. But the mother church I'm assuming at some point had gone liberal and so a group.

Left that and became the Methodist new connection. That's where he was ordained. And they wanted to call him to the pastorate and he felt called to itinerancy. And so he was wondering what he would do.

And he was walking down through the east end of London. And when he if I remember correctly and it's been a while since I've thought about this. So my memory could be failing me. He came across the group of Christians who were doing tent revival meetings.

On a burial ground a Quaker burial ground if I remember correctly. And they were the Christian mission or that's what they became known as he eventually he be so he got to know them and he became the leader of the Christian mission and eventually in.

1878 they changed their name to the Salvation Army and it's interesting the Quaker connection because like the Salvation Army the Quakers do not.

Practice the ordinances of the Christian Church and that's why the Salvation Army doesn't for the first 20 years. They did Wow Baptism infant baptism as well and the Lord's Supper, but then they they stopped because I think of the Catherine Booth's influence and the influence of Quaker theology on her thinking and.

So from the earliest days the women have been ordained and have held positions of responsive leadership Beyond even the local pastorate within the Episcopal form of church government.

That the Salvation Army has so you are raised in this denomination and I Know that you have given your testimony before but because it's kind of crucial to repeat it because of the fact that we have our subject being so connected to your own background.

How long did it take as a member of the Salvation Army before you began? Questioning the validity of women in Authority roles in the church of thought having authority over men. Well, actually.

My mom was ordained and my wife was ordained. I remember I was a Salvation Army officer myself For eight years prior to leaving and it actually snuck up on me if I may put it that way. I did a paper for I was taking a course on New Testament theology.

And I and I did a paper on the first Timothy 2 Passage. I do not allow a woman to have authority.

And.

I did that at Alliance Seminary and that's what got me Looking at the subject and I didn't give it a lot of thought because I had the paper I wrote was and said this Allows for the possibility of female ordination so I had slipped from it's Necessary to it allows for it and then over time.

I just it was in the back of my mind so that when Later on after we had stepped out And I came into the orbit of Reformed Christianity and Was introduced to the PCA in Ithaca, New York And discovered that that They did not believe in female ordination.

I Had to revisit not only Armenian doctrine I had to revisit the female ordination issue and and I have to admit Because I had been stewing about it or mulling it over not stewing about it because I wasn't there was not an existential crisis for me.

I'm a man. I guess that Would might account for that. But as it turns out, you know, I came to realize that that What's there in the text actually? and I had raised the issue as a Salvation Army officer in a couple of the I had suggested the subject for discussion in What would be considered a theological journal within the Salvation Army at the time?

I had suggested to the editor may be doing something on this and he said yeah. So by the time I get was introduced to the to the Reformed faith, I was already you might say prepared in God's providence to reconsider the issue and I did and so that's when I when I became reformed conservative Bible-believing reformed Presbyterian and embraced Biblic more a more I believe a more consistently biblical form of Christianity I had to Go back and look at this issue and remember I'm dealing with a mother at that point It was still alive and the wife who is still alive.

So I it was this wasn't just an academic exercise. I had I had to walk through the issues And talk and talk things over with my my folks talk things over with my wife.

I'll.

Never never with the idea that I beat beat them over the head because I don't believe in patriarchy either. Which would be I suppose the other extreme? Or the you know the typical. In other words as you as you already pointed out Man an authority in the church.

It's not a blanket authority. The passages you see the Apostle Paul and Peter addressing specifically say women are subject to their husbands not to every man in the congregation. And there might be folk who Who think those those commands are that women should be subject to all men and that's just not the case.

Right, but at the same time a woman. Even though it woman is not to submit To every man in the congregation, obviously, that would be actually a serious violation of Scripture.

She's not to have authority though over. Yes, of course that that that's. I'm presupposing that. That that women are not to have any authority over over men. And of course he. What's happened over the years is that even in our in?

More conservative reformed circles or reformed after circles, you know. The culture as we've discovered over the last day the broader culture. Hasn't is not only.

Not.

They're not disinterested in what we're doing. They vehemently hate What we believe. Right. That's what you've discovered. See if I were having a conversation with this woman, I would the the female Lutheran pastor I'd ask I'd start out with.

What do you believe that the Bible is inerrant? I expect her to say no. Then I said we have no further conversation other than I would be obligated to evangelize you.

The thing that's interesting though, is that I'm assuming.

That the Salvation Army believes in the inerrancy. Oh, well in the in the in in say North America, yes, but not uniformly. Okay, but there are there are indeed.

Holiness Pentecostals and Wesleyans who affirm and in fact have affirmed Women in ministry and women having authority over men even before the rise of feminism and liberalism. Yes, that's and these are groups that did not cave in to outside pressures.

These are groups that Believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. In fact, one of the reasons why some of the Holiness groups became Pentecostal is that they believed I think wrongly but they believed that to affirm biblical inerrancy Was to affirm the miraculous which of course we would agree with that part.

But they would go further to say that the miraculous must be occurring today Right if it is biblically true and therefore they believe in modern-day healings by faith healers and and Christians doing the same Miraculous or performing the same miraculous works as the Apostles did which that's where we would disagree with them.

But they put these same people though was where I'm getting to many not all but many have Historically believed in the ordination of women as past. Yes, because they've been taught.

How to read. Those passages which I think are quite clear in Their limitation of church office to men they've they've been Taught. I'm trying to think back About how I thought of things and the truth of the matter is in many instances I never thought.

I gave it a thought because I it was a settled issue. That's why I think when I brought up the idea of having a Give-and-take on the topic in a in a publication of you know They didn't want to do that because it had already been a settled issue.

And I and I understand that you don't. And a publication of which this was a Salvation Army public. But as you're right there there there there are many godly people. I don't believe I became a Christian when I became Reformed my parents.

I believe are now with the Lord by God's grace. I Was brought up in a Christian home and and I said as I said to you yesterday Chris when folk ask me. Those from my background Wesleyans, they'll ask me.

How did you end up Reformed. And as a friend of mine the doctor reverend dr. Craig Topsill.

Said and was speaking to tonight at the Orthodox Presbyterian orthodox Presbyterian Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, right?

He came from a Church of God Anderson background and they're a Wesleyan they're the denomination of Bill and Gloria Gaither and Sandy Patty and all those folk and. And he came from that background and somebody asked him and he said well my parents taught me to read the Bible and That's what I would say.

I've my parents taught me to to love God's Word to depend upon God's Word because it's the Word of God and. And in it we find the way of salvation through Jesus Christ and my parents taught me that. And over time obviously, I Didn't I didn't leave the Salvation Army at the time over Dissatisfaction with the Salvation Army, okay that that I left because I wanted to go back to school among other things.

And and in the process I became Reformed.

And it wasn't I might be wrong here but wasn't L Martin in the Salvation Army before he became. He was.

So I'm not the first.

And and by the way to repeat We're not here to really target. No, the Salvation Army is some kind of a false group or something. We just disagree with them strongly on An issue and it is a serious issue, right?

But but it is an issue nonetheless that is Secondary to salvific matters, right? But it's important enough that we bring it up, especially since in our day and age of feminism More and more people are going to be attacked they're going to Be faced with a decision on whether or not to cave into the feminist culture in our case.

Unlike groups like the Salvation Army and the Wesleyan holiness groups Who ordained women long before the rise of feminism many churches today are caving in to? the demands of the leftist culture and some of them are fearing all kinds of losses whether it be financial or property or membership in certain denominations.

And I think that's all Christians of a Bible believing Christians in this country are Gone are facing that, you know, it's already happening. We know this with regard to bakers and photographers. How long will it be before all Bible-believing Christians.

Are.

Are feeling it all the time? It could be here quicker than we even think now. But think about how quickly this has all come upon us if you think of. When I was even 20 30 years ago, I wouldn't have imagined all of what we're facing now.

But but here we are having to to thinking of an equally Troublesome thing was the Nashville statement, which the Council on biblical manhood and womanhood produced a few months ago. Remember a biblical statement on human sexuality.

Which caused an uproar. Now I have no surprise when liberal Christians respond this way. But when so-called Bible-believing Christians respond negatively toward something like the Nashville statement, I have real concerns about the future of the church in America.

And.

Paul’s Instructions in 1 Timothy 2 and the Limits of Church Authority

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Everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen if you just tuned us in. Our guest today for the full two hours with about 90 minutes to go is Pastor Jeffrey C. Waddington of Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Lansdowne, Pennsylvania.

He's also a board member of reformed forum. And we are discussing the theme is complementarianism. Tantamount to misogyny a defense of biblical gender roles in a feminist culture. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

C H R I s a r n z e n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name. City and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter.

And. What I'd like to do now before we go to any of our audience questions. Because we do have some waiting, but we would like to go through some of the classic biblical texts. That are at the root of the controversy on whether or not women are eligible to be appointed to office bearing positions that involve authority over men and teaching men.

And.

Just to clarify things We've already made it clear that you and I are convinced from the scriptures that women are not to have authority over men. There are some Reformed folk and I'm assuming other evangelicals that are not reformed.

That may be conservative and may prohibit women from becoming elders and pastors and overseers. Which I believe and then I think you agree are the same office. Yes, but There are those that would agree with that prohibition but will nonetheless permit a woman to teach a mixed gender Bible study.

There will where there are men adult men present and they do not see that as a conflict with the prohibition to the.

Eldership or pastorate? What is your opinion on that? Well, I think the Paul doesn't give a well You could say and first Timothy which we're going to look at Charlie's to chapter two is what is Paul addressing?

Is he addressing? public worship and If he's only addressing public worship, then of course Sunday school is not public worship it's it's a. We're we're very clear about that. In our circles the presbyterian OPC circles Sunday school is very very good thing, but it's not a Point.

It's not stated worship. So you actually would permit a woman to teach men. No, I'm trying to clear the field. Okay. Well, there are there are variations even as you've said It's not it's not I I've you know tried to to wrestle with this but the truth is Paul says I do not as we'll see shortly that he limits the the authority In the church to men.

We may not. Well, let me let me go to the text. I was gonna wait to do this. But let me go to it since I'm asking you a question that seems to require going to the text. Yeah, right. First a Timothy to 11 and 12.

The Apostle Paul says let a woman. Let I'm sorry. Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man rather She is to remain silent.

Right. Now as you as you realize the reason why I brought up the issue of public worship is That at the beginning of that section Paul says in verse 8 I desire then that in every place that men should pray lifting up lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling.