October 27, 2017 Show with Jeffery C. Waddington on “Is Complementarianism Tantamount to Misogyny? A Defense of Biblical Gender Roles in a Feminist Culture”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio

platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us.

Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

Now here's our host.

Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio

.com.

This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this gorgeous

gorgeous day on October 27th 2017 I am

so delighted to have back for the second day in a row in Studio with me

Jeffrey C. Waddington who is pastor of Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church in

Lansdowne, Pennsylvania.

He stayed in town for a little bit longer after attending yesterday's iron sharpens iron radio

pastors luncheon.

Which as I mentioned yesterday or as we were mentioning yesterday was an enormous success.

God was certainly good to Us and I have nothing but

praise reports to give about the event not necessarily true about things that

occurred After the event and I'll let you know about that.

It's one of the reasons we're switching subjects today.

We originally announced Yesterday at the end of our interview with Jeff

that we would be discussing today the validity of Roman Catholic baptism

not that we were claiming it is valid that we were taking a critical or opposing view

and that's one of the things that Would put Jeff and I in a very rare

Situation where you have a Presbyterian and a reformed Baptist agreeing on baptism.

Because as Jeff I'm sure would readily admit although this was not historically necessarily the case but

in our day and age.

To be opposed to Roman Catholic baptism baptism amongst Presbyterians would put you in a tiny minority.

Am I right?

Yeah, I think so when when Presbyterian pastors think about it is generally only if someone

wants to become a member who's been Was born in in baptized as an infant in the Roman Catholic

Church and are coming To be become a member in an OP Church Session that

is faced with the question is that baptism valid and of course, it would be not just the

OP Church.

But the PCA the RPC and a and all and most even conservative a

Reformed Calvinistic Presbyterians who would not be modern -day Ecumenists would still accept the Roman

Catholic baptism.

Yes.

And we discussed some of that at length in our previous interview and we'll Lord willing in the future do the same

follow up on that.

Right, yeah, well what we're not doing that subject today because I had learned after

the pastor's luncheon Yesterday, I was actually contacted by one

of the owners of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service Patty Jennings who informed me

that there were a number of people posting nasty things

about me and about the pastor's luncheon on Pennsylvania State Representative Steve

blooms Facebook page.

Steve bloom.

A Friend of mine who is a devout Christian and who was our guest of honor yesterday?

Who is also running for Congress?

Apparently some folks who protested the fact that my

pastor's luncheon was An exclusively male

luncheon.

The invitations were specifically to men in the ministry and

Even though we did expand it to men who were in the diaconate and another leadership roles and so

on.

But it was exclusively a male luncheon and a female

Lutheran pastor, of course in the more liberal denomination of Lutherans the ELCA

Evangelical Lutheran Church in America Complained that she was not

invited to this event and and some other feminists.

Were chiming in one a woman who owns a local

Actually owns a number of local restaurants here in town.

Which are actually excellent restaurants.

They can't complain about the restaurants.

That's they're really the best in the area.

There are a couple that would be in the same par but anyway, she made a false accusation

against me saying that the reason I didn't invite women to.

The.

The pastor's luncheons was because that women are too distracting and

another feminist chimed in I'm assuming that she concluded from that

remark that I have no self -control I mean she's I'm assuming

making a comment about lust there and Another feminist called me a

lech and you know, you keep in mind.

These are people who don't even know who I am and there have been a number adding to the

list of People who were furious that I dare not invite women

pastors To the luncheons.

Well, let's start off at the very beginning and of course someone Called me a

misogynist.

Hence the the title that we are addressing today is is clump

is complementarianism tantamount to misogyny a defense of biblical gender roles and a

feminist culture and We are discussing this because

I have been accused of misogyny because of this Exclusively

male Luncheon that I've had and of course that would mean anybody who views

the complementarian Understanding of gender roles to be the only

biblical Approach to office bearers and heads of households and so on.

It's complementarianism and if you could.

Jeff Waddington define that for our listeners.

Well complementarianism is the view that men and women are equally Made in the image of God

but that that men and women are given different roles in

The family in in culture specifically in the church.

I've been given a cinnamon cinnamon roll.

You've been getting I'm just kidding.

So that that's what.

Complementarianism in other words.

Not compliment in say something nice but compliment is in complete.

You know, you know a man and a woman they complement husband and wife, right?

Primarily, that's the the major image.

That we're talking they become complete because the two very different

Qualities that yes have when they come together, right?

They complement each other, right?

And The in fact the the actual phrase

Complementarian would defy the notion of misogyny, which is someone who looks down

upon women with disgust Right and looks it down upon them as inferior

You know and so on.

So to believe in complementarianism is merely to say that both

Genders are equal in God's sight they just have different roles just as a

parent has a different role than a child in the home and.

A.

Teacher has a different role in a classroom than the student.

There's just correct.

In fact, you know, there are many people who perhaps are even far more

godly than their own pastors.

You know being a pastor Even though it's a unique role and the scriptures tell

us that we have to submit to our elders who watch over us and are

Really responsible for our souls.

That they they have a unique role but they are not Superior or more worthy of heaven or looked

upon as better humans by God.

There's not what we would say is and there's not an ontological difference a Difference about the person's

being.

It's not different.

It's not as though man is.

Which is sometimes a view that was held even by some Christians in the early church.

That man is more human than a woman.

Yeah, that a woman was the property of a man and that kind of right.

Judas Chattel just like a chattel slavery, right?

But this is not at all what complementarianism is.

But you know, but I think we've gone.

We've jumped ahead of ourselves because even though I had you on yesterday, I do want you to Explain.

Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Lansdowne, Pennsylvania.

Sure, Knox is a congregation of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in the Presbyterian of

Philadelphia.

We're I'd say about 20 minutes.

Half hour or longer if the traffic is bad from the the Philadelphia Airport.

We're all off of the we're on the blue route.

Those who are in the Philadelphia area would recognize that that's a southern portion of Route 476 that

goes from Clark Summit Near Scranton all the way down

to Chester, Pennsylvania that that highway and we're toward the bottom end of it.

And we we have two services every Sunday.

We have Sunday school after the morning service.

Of.

The my congregation is unique in that.

We only sing psalms.

We don't have instruments.

So there's no piano or or Organ, let alone drums or guitars and that's not because your church

can't afford them.

No, it's a day.

That's their conviction, right?

And so and so it makes us unique within the OPC.

But of course historically that was the standard practice of Presbyterian and Reformed churches up until I.

Late.

1700s and then it began to change.

But other you know apart from that it's a typical OPC

congregation between 35 and 50 folk.

When you when you come to visit they are very warm and welcoming.

So you said it was an Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

Well, you know, I'm just kidding we're the only pure church.

But then our my brother of my brethren in the PCA will remind me that they're the purest Church in America, right.

But.

One thing that is very providential.

In that it's providential that I got that negative feedback unexpected completely unexpected

because I was Unaware that that many people outside of the body of Christ and outside of

conservative Christianity were even aware of the event.

And in fact the the Lutheran pastor the the female Lutheran

pastor.

Who.

Originally was complaining about this event said she was handed the flyer.

By a male Lutheran pastor who was so disgusted by the

exclusive it exclusive.

Exclusivity.

Exclusivity the male exclusivity of the gathering that

He couldn't go and why that why he thought that she would.

I'm not even understanding why he handed her the flyer but um, I guess just to have her join in on his

disgust, but.

So she was very upset that she was not invited in and as one

Christian woman who was a part of this thread.

Very aptly put it.

She said women have Christian gatherings all the time that are exclusively for women and you

never hear men complaining about not being invited.

And she said I actually love it when we have women gatherings.

Because there are certain occasions when you just want to be together.

With sisters in Christ and it's the same as with right the brethren, of course.

Now the added factor in this though.

Is that I Do believe that the pastor is exclusively a male

office.

Yeah, biblically and I'm we're gonna get into the biblical reasons why?

After we hear some of the testimony of my guest

Jeffrey Waddington.

Because of the fact it's very that's why I was saying it was very timely and Providential that this kind of negative

feedback would come while Jeffrey is in town and and Leaving

tonight, but but staying here long enough to be a part of today's program.

Because Jeffrey himself was raised in the Salvation Army and the Salvation Army

includes women in their pastorate and so this

was something that.

This is an issue that Jeffrey became convinced.

That the Salvation Army was incorrect on and now he is

a complementarian believing in the soul.

Male headship in the Church of Christ in regard to authority over men.

Women may have some roles of authority in the church, but not over men and.

And.

So if you could tell us and by the way that by me by my saying that I am NOT

besmirching or attacking or belittling the Salvation Army

Denomination even though I have disagreements with them.

There are many fine Christians in the Salvation Army.

There are many fine Christians.

And some of whom have become my my friends in the Church of God.

A General Assembly the headquarters being in Findlay, Ohio, which is a

The only way I can think of describing it is a Wesleyan Baptist movement.

But they are egalitarian in regard to the pastor role.

They have women in the pastorate and I seriously disagree with them on that, but Having

said that I've met a number of fine Christian pastors and brothers and sisters in Christ in

that denomination so I'm not attacking or belittling just disagreeing and Of

course, they disagree with me doesn't mean that they hate me or belittle me either but if you could

pastor Jeff tell us something about your own background in the Salvation Army and your view of

Gender roles and how they evolved and I mean that in the biblical sense.

I.

Was born into the Salvation Army my parents were Salvation Army officers at the time.

And I've been out for 23 years.

So I'm not quite sure how it is now, but at the time.

A Salvation Army officer had to be if they were going to be married had to be married to a Salvation Army officer.

Wow, yeah, I didn't know that that's Stan.

I mean, that's what I grew up with.

So they'd be and then the reason for one of the reasons for that is because you're moved around like the military at the will of the

leadership, so you can't have a spouse who's got a you know a job out in the

world like as a teacher or as a You know, whatever because then you know, it's harder to pull

up stakes and move.

That's just one practical out working so that.

At the time that was the case my mom and dad were both ordained both would fill the pulpit my

dad.

Typically preached to you know, 90 % of the time or 80 % of the time.

But that that will vary among couples depending on you know, how they are gifted.

I guess you might say.

Skilled and you know anything about the genesis of Egalitarianism.

Because if I was told and I don't know if the person who told me was correct.

I was told that Booth the founder of The Salvation Army initially

was not egalitarian.

That's correct.

His wife Catherine.

I.

Guess was much more influenced by the Quaker tradition.

Convinced her husband of the legitimacy of female ministers.

So From early days earliest days if not the earliest days the Salvation

Army Has ordained women and in fact, they've had at least two

generals.

That is the the person holding the highest command position within the Salvation Army

over in London at the International Headquarters.

Know what.

Religious or theological or denomination?

Oh, they're Wesleyan Armenian.

Yeah, so William Booth when he founded the Salvation Army, where was he coming from?

He was he was the minister in the Wesleyan new connection or the Methodist new connection, which was a

Spin -off from the mainline.

We would call mainline.

That's an anachronistic term.

I realized.

But the mother church I'm assuming at some point had gone liberal and so

a group.

Left that and became the Methodist new connection.

That's where he was ordained.

And they wanted to call him to the pastorate and he felt called to itinerancy.

And so he was wondering what he would do.

And he was walking down through the east end of London.

And when he if I remember correctly and it's been a while since I've thought about this.

So my memory could be failing me.

He came across the group of Christians who were doing tent revival

meetings.

On a burial ground a Quaker burial ground if I remember correctly.

And they were the Christian mission or that's what they became known as he eventually he be so he got to know

them and he became the leader of the Christian mission and eventually in.

1878 they changed their name to the Salvation Army and it's interesting the Quaker connection because

like the Salvation Army the Quakers do not.

Practice the ordinances of the Christian Church and that's why the Salvation Army doesn't for the first 20 years.

They did Wow Baptism infant baptism as well and the Lord's Supper, but then

they they stopped because I think of the Catherine Booth's influence and the influence of

Quaker theology on her thinking and.

So from the earliest days the women have been ordained and have held positions of responsive

leadership Beyond even the local pastorate within the Episcopal form of church government.

That the Salvation Army has so you are raised in this denomination and I Know that

you have given your testimony before but because it's kind of crucial to repeat it because of the fact that we

have our subject being so connected to your own background.

How long did it take as a member of the Salvation Army before you began?

Questioning the validity of women in Authority roles in the church of thought having authority

over men.

Well, actually.

My mom was ordained and my wife was ordained.

I remember I was a Salvation Army officer myself For eight years prior to leaving

and it actually snuck up on me if I may put it that way.

I did a paper for I was taking a course on New Testament theology.

And I and I did a paper on the first Timothy 2 Passage.

I do not allow a woman to have authority.

And.

I did that at Alliance Seminary and that's what got me Looking at the subject

and I didn't give it a lot of thought because I had the paper I wrote was and said this

Allows for the possibility of female ordination so I had slipped from it's Necessary

to it allows for it and then over time.

I just it was in the back of my mind so that when Later on

after we had stepped out And I came into the

orbit of Reformed Christianity and Was introduced to the PCA in Ithaca,

New York And discovered that that They did not believe in

female ordination.

I Had to revisit not only Armenian doctrine I had to revisit the female

ordination issue and and I have to admit Because I had been

stewing about it or mulling it over not stewing about it because I wasn't there was not an existential crisis for me.

I'm a man.

I guess that Would might account for that.

But as it turns out, you know, I came to realize that that

What's there in the text actually? and I had raised the issue as a

Salvation Army officer in a couple of the I had suggested the subject for discussion

in What would be considered a theological journal within the Salvation Army at the time?

I had suggested to the editor may be doing something on this and he said yeah.

So by the time I get was introduced to the to the Reformed faith, I was already you might

say prepared in God's providence to reconsider the issue and I did and

so that's when I when I became reformed conservative Bible -believing reformed

Presbyterian and embraced Biblic more a more

I believe a more consistently biblical form of Christianity I had to

Go back and look at this issue and remember I'm dealing with a mother at that point It was still

alive and the wife who is still alive.

So I it was this wasn't just an academic exercise.

I had I had to walk through the issues And talk

and talk things over with my my folks talk things over with my wife.

I'll.

Never never with the idea that I beat beat them over the head because I don't believe in patriarchy either.

Which would be I suppose the other extreme?

Or the you know the typical.

In other words as you as you already pointed out Man an

authority in the church.

It's not a blanket authority.

The passages you see the Apostle Paul and Peter addressing specifically say

women are subject to their husbands not to every man in the congregation.

And there might be folk who Who think those those commands

are that women should be subject to all men and that's just not the case.

Right, but at the same time a woman.

Even though it woman is not to submit To every man in the congregation, obviously, that would be actually a

serious violation of Scripture.

She's not to have authority though over.

Yes, of course that that that's.

I'm presupposing that.

That that women are not to have any authority over over

men.

And of course he.

What's happened over the years is that even in our in?

More conservative reformed circles or reformed after circles, you know.

The culture as we've discovered over the last day the broader culture.

Hasn't is not only.

Not.

They're not disinterested in what we're doing.

They vehemently hate What we believe.

Right.

That's what you've discovered.

See if I were having a conversation with this woman, I would the the female Lutheran pastor I'd

ask I'd start out with.

What do you believe that the Bible is inerrant?

I expect her to say no.

Then I said we have no further conversation other than I would be obligated to evangelize you.

The thing that's interesting though, is that I'm assuming.

That the Salvation Army believes in the inerrancy.

Oh, well in the in the in in say North America, yes, but not

uniformly.

Okay, but there are there are indeed.

Holiness Pentecostals and Wesleyans who affirm and in fact have

affirmed Women in ministry and women having authority over men even

before the rise of feminism and liberalism.

Yes, that's and these are groups that did not cave in to outside pressures.

These are groups that Believe in the inerrancy of Scripture.

In fact, one of the reasons why some of the Holiness groups became Pentecostal is

that they believed I think wrongly but they believed that to affirm biblical inerrancy

Was to affirm the miraculous which of course we would agree with that part.

But they would go further to say that the miraculous must be occurring today Right if it

is biblically true and therefore they believe in modern -day healings

by faith healers and and Christians doing the same Miraculous or performing the same miraculous

works as the Apostles did which that's where we would disagree with them.

But they put these same people though was where I'm getting to many not all but many

have Historically believed in the ordination of women as past.

Yes, because they've been taught.

How to read.

Those passages which I think are quite clear in Their limitation of church office to

men they've they've been Taught.

I'm trying to think back About how I thought of things and the truth of the matter is in

many instances I never thought.

I gave it a thought because I it was a settled issue.

That's why I think when I brought up the idea of having a Give -and -take on the

topic in a in a publication of you know They didn't want to do that because it had already been a settled issue.

And I and I understand that you don't.

And a publication of which this was a Salvation Army public.

But as you're right there there there there are many godly people.

I don't believe I became a Christian when I became Reformed my parents.

I believe are now with the Lord by God's grace.

I Was brought up in a Christian home and and I said as I said to you yesterday Chris

when folk ask me.

Those from my background Wesleyans, they'll ask me.

How did you end up Reformed.

And as a friend of mine the doctor reverend dr. Craig Topsill.

Said and was speaking to tonight at the Orthodox Presbyterian orthodox Presbyterian Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania,

right?

He came from a Church of God Anderson background and they're a Wesleyan they're the denomination of Bill

and Gloria Gaither and Sandy Patty and all those folk and.

And he came from that background and somebody asked him and he said well my parents taught me to read the

Bible and That's what I would say.

I've my parents taught me to to love God's Word to depend upon God's

Word because it's the Word of God and.

And in it we find the way of salvation through Jesus Christ and my parents taught me that.

And over time obviously, I Didn't I didn't leave the Salvation Army

at the time over Dissatisfaction with the Salvation Army, okay that that I

left because I wanted to go back to school among other things.

And and in the process I became Reformed.

And it wasn't I might be wrong here but wasn't L Martin in the Salvation Army before he became.

He was.

So I'm not the first.

And and by the way to repeat We're not here to really target.

No, the Salvation Army is some kind of a false group or something.

We just disagree with them strongly on An issue and it is a serious issue,

right?

But but it is an issue nonetheless that is Secondary to

salvific matters, right?

But it's important enough that we bring it up, especially since in our day and age of feminism More and more

people are going to be attacked they're going to Be faced with a

decision on whether or not to cave into the feminist culture in our case.

Unlike groups like the Salvation Army and the Wesleyan holiness groups Who

ordained women long before the rise of feminism many churches today are caving in to?

the demands of the leftist culture and some of them are fearing

all kinds of losses whether it be financial or property or membership

in certain denominations.

And I think that's all Christians of a Bible believing Christians in this

country are Gone are facing that, you know, it's already happening.

We know this with regard to bakers and photographers.

How long will it be before all Bible -believing Christians.

Are.

Are feeling it all the time?

It could be here quicker than we even think now.

But think about how quickly this has all come upon us if you think of.

When I was even 20 30 years ago, I wouldn't have imagined all of what we're facing now.

But but here we are having to to thinking of

an equally Troublesome thing was the

Nashville statement, which the Council on biblical manhood and womanhood produced a few

months ago.

Remember a biblical statement on human sexuality.

Which caused an uproar.

Now I have no surprise when liberal Christians respond this

way.

But when so -called Bible -believing Christians respond negatively toward something like the

Nashville statement, I have real concerns about the

future of the church in America.

And.

We're going to our first break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

Chris a are n is e and gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA and

Please only ask Anonymously if you are asking about a personal or private

matter but otherwise, please give us your first name city and state and Country of residence.

Don't go away.

God willing. We're gonna be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

So do not go away.

I am Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio here to tell you about an exciting offer from world

magazine My trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

Try world at no charge for 90 days and get a free copy of RC Sproul's book

Relationship between church and state.

I Rely on world because I trust the reporting.

I gain insight from the analysis and world provides clarity to the news stories That really matter.

I believe you'll also find world to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth That's

simply not found in other media outlets.

Armed with this coverage world can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

This trial includes bi -weekly issues of world magazine on -scene reporting from world radio

and the fully shareable content of world digital.

Simply visit wmg .org Forward -slash iron sharpens

to get your world trial and dr. Sproul's book all free.

No obligation with no credit card required.

Visit world news group at wmg .org Forward

-slash iron sharpens today.

Thriving financial is not your typical financial services provider as a membership organization.

We help Christians be wise with money and live generously every day.

And for the fourth year in a row We were named one of the world's most ethical companies by the ethosphere

Institute a leading international think -tank dedicated to the creation advancement and sharing of best

practices in business ethics.

Contact me Mike Gallagher financial consultant

at 7 1 7 2 5 4 6 4 3 3 Again, 7 1 7 2 5 4 6 4 3 3 to learn more about

the thriving difference.

Lending faith finances and generosity.

That's the thriving story.

I.

One sure way all iron sharpens iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my

advertisers.

I know you all use batteries every day.

So I'm urging you all from now on to exclusively use Battery Depot calm for all

your battery needs at battery Depot calm.

They're changing the status quo.

They're flipping the script they're sticking it to the man.

In other words, they'd like to change the battery industry for good by providing an extensive inventory

of top -of -the -line batteries.

There are uniformly new dependable and affordable.

Ordering from battery Depot calm ensures you'll always get fresh out -of -the -box batteries.

You can count on to work properly at competitive prices.

Whether you need batteries for cordless phones cell phones radios PCs

laptops tablets baby monitors hearing aids smoke detectors credit card

readers digital cameras electronic cigarettes GPS's mp3 players

watches or nearly anything else you own that needs batteries go to battery Depot

Calm.

Next day shipping available all products protected by 30 -day guarantees and six -month

warranties.

Call 866 403 3768 that's eight six six

four zero three 3768 or go to battery Depot calm.

That's battery Depot calm.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid ground Christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of preachers to heart.

The mission of solid ground Christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and

future and To publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001 Solid ground has been committed to publish God -centered Christ exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid ground books.

Calm.

That's solid ground books calm and see what priceless literary gems from the past

or present You can unearth from solid ground.

Solid ground Christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio.

Hi, I'm pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday

from 12 noon to 1 p .m Eastern Time on WLIE radio

www .wlie540am .com.

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in

with your questions.

Our time will be lively Useful and I assure you never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study because.

Everyone needs a pastor.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen if you just tuned us in.

Our guest today for the full two hours with about 90 minutes to go is Pastor Jeffrey C.

Waddington of Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Lansdowne, Pennsylvania.

He's also a board member of reformed forum.

And we are discussing the theme is complementarianism.

Tantamount to misogyny a defense of biblical gender roles in a feminist culture.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

C H R I s a r n z e n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name.

City and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if it's about

a personal and private matter.

And.

What I'd like to do now before we go to any of our audience questions.

Because we do have some waiting, but we would like to go through some of the classic biblical texts.

That are at the root of the controversy on whether or not women

are eligible to be appointed to office bearing

positions that involve authority over men and teaching men.

And.

Just to clarify things We've already made it clear that you and I are

convinced from the scriptures that women are not to have authority over men.

There are some Reformed folk and I'm assuming other evangelicals that are not reformed.

That may be conservative and may prohibit women from becoming elders and pastors and overseers.

Which I believe and then I think you agree are the same office.

Yes, but There are those that would agree with that prohibition but will nonetheless

permit a woman to teach a mixed gender Bible study.

There will where there are men adult men present and they do not see that as a

conflict with the prohibition to the.

Eldership or pastorate?

What is your opinion on that?

Well, I think the Paul doesn't give a well You could say

and first Timothy which we're going to look at Charlie's to chapter two is what is Paul addressing?

Is he addressing? public worship and If he's only addressing public worship, then of

course Sunday school is not public worship it's it's a.

We're we're very clear about that.

In our circles the presbyterian OPC circles Sunday school is very very good thing, but it's not a

Point.

It's not stated worship.

So you actually would permit a woman to teach men.

No, I'm trying to clear the field.

Okay.

Well, there are there are variations even as you've said It's not it's not I

I've you know tried to to wrestle with this but the truth is Paul says

I do not as we'll see shortly that he limits the the authority In the

church to men.

We may not.

Well, let me let me go to the text.

I was gonna wait to do this.

But let me go to it since I'm asking you a question that seems to require going to the text.

Yeah, right.

First a Timothy to 11 and 12.

The Apostle Paul says let a woman.

Let I'm sorry.

Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority

over a man rather She is to remain silent.

Right.

Now as you as you realize the reason why I brought up the issue of public worship is That

at the beginning of that section Paul says in verse 8 I desire then that in every place that

men should pray lifting up lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling.

Likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel with modesty and self -control.

Not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire.

But what is proper for women who profess godliness with good works?

That's the context for what Paul you just read.

Let a woman learn quietly with a with all submissiveness.

I Do not permit a woman to teach her to exercise authority over a man rather She is to remain quiet for Adam was

formed first.

Okay, this is the the the Logic that Paul is using then Eve and Adam

was not deceived.

But the woman's was deceived and became a trans Russia 10 transgressor.

Yet she will be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith love and holiness with self -control.

So in that in that passage Paul is one before we get to the limit.

Notice what he's saying that women can learn.

Okay, we realized that Jesus had women disciples in fact He was supported financially by

women disciples who were well off.

That's the Gospels.

Tell us that.

There are some religions who have an extreme View of the separation of the

genders don't even permit women to be present during teaching Services

or perhaps even worship services, but those would be extreme cases that are not the norm of

Christianity, correct?

So Paul is saying To learn now you're to do it with submission or in

submission with submissiveness.

But you you women let a woman learn quietly, so you are to learn presumably

Mary when she sat at the feet of Jesus Didn't go on talking endlessly

as some people we don't tend to do but but she sat at the feet of our Lord and Learned from him.

And Paul is saying that let a woman Learn quietly with all submissiveness.

Okay, so that's a point not to miss.

Then he says I do not permit a woman to teach her to exercise authority over a man.

That's a that's a very clear statement.

Rather she is to remain quiet.

Some have suggested that that Paul was concerned With women who were talking all the time

in worship, and you know the thing that's ironic about that and somewhat humorous is.

I don't understand how a Feminist who views men who want to

prohibit them from leadership as Chauvinists and yet they think it's okay to

view women as people who can't keep their mouth shut During a worship service and they're always chatting and

gossiping and things like that.

Which is a demeaning way to generalize women.

I.

Agree.

So.

Paul and of course this makes Paul the bad guy, right?

Jesus is loving and kind and understanding and Paul is a mean curmudgeon.

No, if you notice there weren't any the among the twelve disciples they were all men,

right.

Whatever you want to make of it.

That's a fact.

Just something to ponder meditate upon.

But here Paul makes it clear by the way a long pauses of silence for rhetorical questions is not a good thing for

radio.

Meditate upon that that thought that that and remember that when Paul

speaks, it's not his opinion.

When Paul speaks he speaks as the duly appointed.

Appointed.

Representative of the Lord Jesus Christ.

What Paul says is as equally authoritative as what Jesus says?

That's why you don't find me using a red -letter Bible because the red letters aren't any more authoritative than the

black letters.

They are all equally authoritative.

Yes, and sometimes it's ironic that the more liberal person Would want to

appeal only to the words of Jesus and not to someone like the Apostle Paul.

And yet The Apostle Paul's epistles say that ten times fast the

Apostle Paul's epistles are.

Very.

Clear and perhaps even much clearer on the issue of being saved by

grace alone, right and the Forgiveness offer to the worst of sinners

than any other portions of the Bible.

I mean he is very Grace focused.

So it's ironic that a more liberal person Would be trying to set Paul

aside.

I would say I'm not surprised for a person who doesn't treat the Bible as the inerrant infallible Word of God to

do this.

But when you have someone who does affirm that about the Word of God you have to be

Operating with it with an arbitrary Interpretive principle.

The way you are handling God's Word is I think Defective

or unfortunate.

Well, by the way, I don't know if you ever definitively answered my question as to whether or not you believe that a woman.

Whether or not a woman can teach an adult mixed Bible study.

I would say it's not not wise.

It's not good.

Okay.

But you're not at a point where you complete completely would prohibit it.

Oh, I would.

Okay.

I'm just saying that there are OPC.

I'm sure there are OPC ministers who.

Maybe there aren't.

I'm not.

I'm not basing this upon any any, you know conversation there.

Um, well, let me put it this way.

It's not in the OPC.

I know for certain there are Conservative Presbyterians who do allow women to teach mixed adult studies.

So there is disagreement even amongst us who agree at this point that Paul is saying.

They would I'm guessing they would say that Paul is talking about Women teaching in public

worship.

I'm guessing that's what they would say.

Right, and I'm saying that while that's true that that may be the context I think Paul's statement is

is more general than that.

If he doesn't say I don't allow a woman to teach in public worship, not what he said.

But at the same time it's certainly true for public worship.

But in the same time we I'm assuming you don't want to go too far either because

and I by the way, I agree with you.

I don't believe that women should be teaching Mixed adult Bible studies either but at the same

time unless people get the wrong impression.

Don't you think that there are times in? social settings and one -on -one evangelism.

Or when you are having conversations with new believers.

That just as it seems clear Priscilla along with her husband Aquila

was involved in some kind of right teaching.

But it was not a formal office, right?

See that that's what I was going to say.

We want to be.

I want to be careful that that I'm not understood to be saying.

That that a husband and wife they're doing a personal a Bible study for family or friends.

And they gather in their home that the the woman can't say anything or even can't.

Maybe she knows the book better than her husband, but or like for instance a.

Woman is on her.

Lunch break at work and does a Bible study or or even beyond that?

You know some male employee says I know you're a Christian is Jesus God.

I mean, she's not gonna answer that right even though it's a man asking her the question.

So you have to understand, you know there's also a bit of sanctified common sense that needs to be at

work as we read God's Word if I Use that expression.

I mean directed by the Holy Spirit and.

Before we go to the break perhaps if you can make this brief.

Do you believe that?

Women are eligible for the diaconate and it's interesting that one of the most

conservative Calvinistic teachers world -renowned teachers and

pastors and authors who is one of my modern -day heroes Believes in female

deacons and that would be John MacArthur, but he views that strictly as a servant role.

And not something that you're ordained to and so on.

But if you could be I don't believe that women should be deacons or deaconesses.

To be right.

More accurate I do not believe.

Certainly the Book of Church Order in the PCA and the OPC does not allow for it even though some.

Matters of the act of deaconesses have been grandfathered in or grandmothered in.

Presbyterian Church.

And they you know, they were grandfathered in when the RPC ES the Reformed Presbyterian Church Evangelical

Synod Merged with the PCA back in the 70s or 80s 80s, I believe.

But I think Oh, that's another issue in its own, right

you know, but but in terms of how you handle it, but the Book of Church Order in the OPC

and Unless it's changed in the PCA the last time the copy that I have admittedly is dated.

But It does not allow women to hold office and deacon is an office

in the church.

Now.

Yes, it's a serving office.

And it's may be very wise to have women assist The

male deacons if there's when they're serving women so the

issue isn't With can a deacon call upon women in the church to help

him To serve, you know, but they're they're not the deacon.

They're assisting the deacon fulfill his function in a wise.

Biblical way and let's go to the break right now and we'll pick up right where you left off.

If anybody would like to join us on the air, please send us an email to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

We're gonna be right back at bowling right after these messages.

So do not go away.

Iron sharpens iron welcomes solid rock remodeling to our family of sponsors serving South

Central, Pennsylvania.

Solid rock remodeling is focused on discovering Understanding and exceeding your

expectations.

They deliver personalized project solutions with exceptional results.

Solid rock remodeling offers a full range of home renovations including kitchen and bath

remodeling decks porches windows and doors Roof and siding and

more for a clear detailed professional estimate.

Call this trustworthy team of problem solvers who provide superior results that stand to

the test of time.

Call solid rock remodeling at 7 1 7 6 9 7 1981

7 1 7 6 9 7 1981 or visit solid rock

remodeling.

Calm that solid rock remodeling.

Calm solid rock remodeling.

Bringing new life to your home.

Linbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Linbrook Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in

the 21st century.

Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service.

It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement.

It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages.

Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship play and together.

Hi.

I'm pastor Bob Waldeman and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church.

Can be call in Brook Baptist at 5 1 6 5 9 9 9 4 0 2 that's 5 1 6

5 9 9 9 4 0 2 or visit Linbrook Baptist org.

That's Linbrook Baptist org.

Chef exclusive catering is in South Central, Pennsylvania.

Chef exclusives goals to provide a dining experience that is sure to please any palate.

Chef Damian white of chef exclusive is a graduate of the renowned Johnson and Wales University with a degree in

culinary arts and applied science.

Chef exclusive caterings event center is newly designed with elegance and style and is available for

small office gatherings bridal showers engagement parties and rehearsal dinners.

Critics and guests alike acknowledge chef exclusives commitment to exceeding even the highest

expectations.

I know of their quality firsthand since.

Chef exclusive catered by most recent iron sharpens iron radio pastors luncheon.

For details call 717 -388 -3000.

That's 717 -388 -3000 or visit chef exclusive calm.

That's chef exclusive calm.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God or am I trying

to please?

Man, if I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi.

I'm Mark Lukins pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

Than how men view these things?

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostles priority.

It must not be ours either.

We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and To be

vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth.

And love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area Please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750.

That's 508 -528 -5750.

Or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our TV program entitled

resting in grace.

You can find us at Providence Baptist Church ma org.

That's Providence Baptist Church ma org or even on sermon audio .com.

Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio.

Hi.

I'm pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday from

12 noon to 1 p .m Eastern Time on WLIE radio www

.wlie 540 a .m.

Calm we bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you.

And we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions.

Our time will be lively Useful and I assure you never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time For a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs

a pastor.

Tired of box store Christianity of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert.

Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship?

And how about the preaching.

Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

Well, there's good news Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship

experience Featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word.

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you.

Call them at six three one nine two nine thirty five twelve for service times six three one

nine two nine thirty five twelve or check out their website at Wrbc

.us, that's wrbc .us.

I'm James White of Alpha Omega ministries.

The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study used by pastors scholars and everyday readers.

The NASB is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable Bible translation.

The NASB offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages.

Which the NASB is known for.

The NASB is available in many editions like a topical reference Bible.

Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy.

The new topical reference Bible includes contemporary topics relevant to today's issues.

From compacted giant print Bibles find an NASB that fits your needs very affordably at NASBible

.com.

Whichever edition you choose trust discover and enjoy the NASB for yourself today.

Go to NASBible .com.

That's NASBible .com.

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is sponsored by Harvey Cedars a year -round Bible conference and retreat

center.

Nestled on the Jersey Shore Harvey Cedars offers a wide range of accommodations to suit groups up

to 400.

For Generations.

Christians have enjoyed gathering and growing at Harvey Cedars.

Each year thousands of high school and college students come and learn more about God's Word.

An additional 9 ,000 come annually to Harvey Cedars as families couples

singles men women pastors seniors and missionaries 90 miles

from New York City 70 miles from Philly and 95 miles from Wilmington and easily

accessible.

Scores of notable Christian groups frequently planned conferences at Harvey Cedars like the

Navigators InterVarsity Christian Fellowship Campus Crusade and the Alliance of

Confessing Evangelicals.

Find Harvey Cedars on Facebook or at hcbible .org

hcbible .org.

Call 609 -494 -5689 609

-494 -5689.

Harvey Cedars where Christ finds people and changes lives.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen and today our guest if you just tuned us in is Jeffrey C Waddington pastor

of the Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Lansdowne, Pennsylvania.

Obviously named after one of the great reformers John Knox.

I.

Wanted to make sure that people didn't think we were saying and KNOCK.

Named after the great John Knox the reformer of Scotland.

Yes, and and also you are board member at reformed forum.

Please quickly explain that the reform forum is an internet Christian education ministry

Targeted the at the the high end of theological conversation and

instruction.

But we are branching out with programs more Geared toward

the layperson as well.

In fact, we added a new program called theology simply Profound with which does that

admirably?

And before we return to our discussion on is Complementarianism tantamount to misogyny a defense of

biblical gender roles in a feminist culture I just have some important

announcements to make first of all next month from November 17th through the 18th.

And this is not restricted only to men in the ministry as much.

This is for every man woman and child.

The Quaker town conference on reform theology at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker town,

Pennsylvania November 17th through the 18th on the theme for still our ancient foe a reference to

Satan from the Great Reformation hymn a mighty fortress by Martin Luther and.

The.

Guests or should I say the speakers include Kent Hughes Peter Jones Tom Nettles Dennis

Cahill and Scott Oliphant who we were mentioning earlier actually.

Yes, and I've got to get him on the show.

If you would like to register for this conference go to Alliance net org Alliance net

Org and then click on events and then click on Quaker town conference on reform theology.

God willing I will see you there if you attend as I am Intending to

man an exhibitors booth for iron sharpens iron radio there.

I would love to meet as many of you in the iron sharpens iron radio audience as possible.

And I'd like to be reacquainted with those of you who I've already met at other conferences that we've advertised here.

And then coming up in January.

An event that I met a lot of iron sharpens iron radio listeners that I've never met or heard from

before.

Even many that never even submitted a question to the show.

I met a lot of you at the g3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia last

January and what a joy that was.

I also became acquainted face -to -face finally with some of you who have been regularly Submitting

questions and I also got to see some old friends that I haven't seen in years.

It was such a joy this January 17th through the 20th.

The g3 conference will be on the theme knowing God a biblical understanding of discipleship.

The 17th is exclusively a Spanish speaking edition of the conference and the 18th through the 20th is

exclusively in English and features Speakers such as Stephen Lawson voting Balcom Phil Johnson

Keith Getty Charles HP Charles jr Tim Challis Josh Bice James White Tom Askell Anthony

Mathenia Michael Kruger David Miller Paul trip Todd Friel Derek Thomas Martha peace and Justin Peters.

If you'd like to register for the g3 conference go to g3 conference calm g3 conference calm

and as always if you Register for any of these events that I advertise or if you are merely

contacting the organization's running them because you want more information Please let them know that you

heard about those events from Chris Arnson on iron sharpens iron radio.

And now I have to do that.

Uncomfortable thing I really do not like doing but it is an important thing.

If iron sharpens iron radio is to remain on the air.

I have to remind you of how truly serious our financial situation is how

How urgent the need is for us to receive new donations?

Thankfully we just after the luncheon yesterday got a couple of

Organizations that were had representatives present at the luncheon.

Reassure me that they are going to be sending in donations.

And I hope that many more of you do that because we are literally and truly at the

verge of going off the air.

That is not just some scare tactic to drum up more money or anything like that.

We really are on the precipice of not being able to continue this program.

So if you really do love the program you want it to remain on the air.

You look forward to hearing it every day.

You were edified by the guests and topics.

Maybe you find me annoying completely.

Maybe you hate me but but I'm sure that you don't always hate the guests and topics

that I have on the program and If you find this program a blessing you don't want it to

be a thing of history only and have it disappear from The airwaves and the internet and please

consider donating to us.

Go to iron sharpens iron radio .com.

Click on support and then you will have an address where you can mail a check may payable to iron sharpens iron radio.

Right there in front of you.

If you would like to advertise with us Please just send me an email to Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

And put advertising in the subject line as long as whatever it is.

Advertising is compatible with the theology expressed on this program doesn't have to be exactly

identical.

It just needs to be compatible with the theology expressed.

In fact my my guests today Jeff Waddington.

We have so much in common and we are enjoying so much wonderful fellowship, but we are not exactly identical in our

theology.

Yes, we apparently are complementarian.

But.

The.

Just send us an email whether it's your church your parachurch that you want to advertise your business your professional practice.

Just a special event you're having.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.

And as always never ever ever if you're donating to iron sharpens iron radio Please never ever ever Siphon

money out of the regular giving you are accustomed to to your church where you are a member and it's not your church.

I'm hearing Bill Shishko in my ear right now saying it's not your church.

It's the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Well the church where you're a member, please never siphon money out of your giving to that church.

To give to our interprets iron radio.

Please only bless us financially if you are blessed financially above and beyond.

Your ability to support your church and your family.

Don't take food off of your family's dinner table either to support our interprets iron radio.

But.

If you are financially capable of obeying those two commands providing for church and home then please

consider helping us by setting whatever check you can afford to send and

Please send regularly and monthly if you're able to.

Because we would love to remain on the air and have many more guests and topics addressed and Continue to bless you who

love this program.

All right.

Now we are truly back to our discussion.

With pastor Jeff Wallington here in studio with me.

I always love it when when pastors and other guests can actually be right here in the studio.

It's a lot easier to conduct an interview when you're face -to -face with a brother or sister.

And you're not communicating by the phone and dealing with phone problems and that kind of thing.

We are discussing is complementarian tantamount to misogyny a defense of biblical gender

roles in a feminist culture.

And Going back to that classic passage in 1st Timothy

2 that we were addressing moments ago.

Before I go to any of our listener questions I'll repeat the quest the

the text in 1st Timothy chapter 2 verses 11 and 12.

Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man.

Rather she is to remain silent now as a Salvation Army member before you became a reformed Christian.

How would you hear that text typically?

Addressed because obviously your your former background

was a denomination that permits right females in.

Authority positions over men right.

My own experience and that's all I can speak to would be to say that that it was not

Addressed.

I Don't mean that it people that that for instance I grew up with my under my father's and my mother's ministry

that it was ignored.

No, I know that they preached on it, but I I honestly don't remember what they said.

I can tell you that generally speaking the the the way to deal with this is to sit is to

make it so specific to the Ephesian context.

In other words, they would be delving into the cultural background of the city of Ephesus.

They would be looking at pagan religions the the female priest

priestesses involved in some of the pagan Greco -Roman mystery religions

and things like that and so they would.

That's how and so they would simply say that this was a limitation on a particular problem in Ephesus

at.

That time it was not to be generalized and Paul blows that out of the water because he goes back to the garden.

Yeah, that's a that's a one of the I remember in preparation for that paper.

I wrote when I was Going to Alliance Seminary in Nyack, New York.

Reading reading one book that was dealing with with Paul's argument.

And and it was all over the map and I remember thinking well at the very least.

This is not sticking to the text.

Paul very clearly grounds this in this instance.

Primogeniture, which is the firstborn Idea that is Adam was created first

or form first then Eve.

So there's that's the primogeniture principle and then Adam was not deceived.

But the woman was deceived and became a transgressor now the thing that's that's interesting about that.

And we can't go too far because of time limitation, right?

Even though he explains why I don't understand that explanation because You would think

it would be more sinful to knowingly disobey.

Yes, I think that I I don't think that's Paul would deny that Because the issue he's dealing with is

women teaching and he's saying that Eve was deceived by the

Conversation she had with the serpent who the Moses and Genesis says was more subtle than

any other earth.

Craftier than any other creature that God had created, right?

So so that so that.

Remember that in the Genesis account in chapter 3 Adam is present with her when

she's having the conversation with the serpent and Adam as as the prophet

priest and king in The garden should have kicked the serpent out of the garden right.

Not allowed the.

Conversation to be had he knew that the serpent was lying.

Yeah, so in other words, this doesn't let Adam off the hook.

Remember Adams the federal head.

Eve is not yeah.

We we the que as Christians discuss and proclaim that we are

born with the sin of Adam.

We don't say the sin of Eve, right?

So.

So Paul would not disagree with that point.

He's simply making me the up he's making the observation and building off of that that in

the particular Conversation that Eve had with the serpent in the garden.

She was deceived by the the cunning of the serpent Adam.

Knowingly sinned but the.

But my point is that even though I don't understand Why that would make?

Adam.

Why that would make males eligible for the pastorate and not females.

Even though I don't understand it just as Paul Rebukes those in Romans 9 who dare

question why the Potter would make some vessels for dishonor.

The why are you smiling?

I know I know what you're get you the issue.

Who are you old man to talk back to God?

The point is the that that our Obedience to the Word of God is not to be predicated

upon our ability to explain it when something is put forward.

Straightforwardly, right?

In other words, we may not be able to tell someone why Paul said this because it does mystify us perhaps.

But the fact is Paul said it.

Now, do you believe that Paul is saying here and this may be a matter of debate and disagreement Amongst even

people that are in lockstep many other ways theologically.

But do you believe that because of Eve's being deceived by?

Imputation the female gender is not eligible to become

Office bearers over men or have authority over men.

Or do you believe that there is something intrinsic about the female gender that lends itself? to this.

Being deceived as Eve was if you say that.

Then you would say that there is an ontological difference.

So then we couldn't be complementarian.

Okay?

I mean if that's what you actually believe no, I'm not saying you but if someone believed that they couldn't be a ladder but they couldn't

be Complementarians because they've just said that there's something in the in the being of a female that

makes her inferior.

In fact, there are those who share our Views that only

men may be appointed to the leader position over other men

in the in the congregation who would Times give very horrible reasons for that.

They make me flinch.

Yes, because they'll say things like men are more suited by

nature to be leaders or to be preachers there are women who are Better

preachers in a physical and homiletical and oratory sense right than men.

There are women who are better public speakers than their own past.

I think my mother.

I love my dad.

Well, I think my mother was a better preacher teacher than my dad, but that doesn't mean that she is.

Worthy of that office or shouldn't.

That's about.

That's a bad way of putting it.

That's that doesn't mean she's eligible, right?

She was she she knows that that I that I loved her dearly.

But it but it doesn't mean a woman is eligible for the office just because she knows that now because she's in heaven.

But she women are not eligible for an office just because they have the ability.

Right to perform those things to be very careful that that I don't read into this or read out of this

text to read into This text rather the idea that Paul is saying there is something metaphysically

or ontologically inferior in women.

To assume that that that in every instance a woman is is inferior.

She's not inferior in any instance.

It's it just happens to be the case that in in the garden Eve was deceived.

Remember.

She looked at the tree and saw that it was good for food and that it was to be

desired to make one wise and she took of the fruit of the tree and Took a bite of it

and gave it to her husband who was with her and he.

Now.

Tell us about for instance the texts in scripture

where you have references to women prophesying and

Therefore you will have Egalitarians, you know.

Say well look here we have women prophesying.

So, how can you say that women cannot teach in public in a mixed assembly with men?

Well, they'd have to ask the Apostle Paul that I'm not the one who spoke this or wrote this.

The Apostle Paul did.

So the person they need to ask is Paul not me.

Now if you're asking me, what do I think of those passages?

I have to say that first of all, there are exceptions to the rule.

In in the history of redemption you have Deborah who's a judge In ancient Israel, right?

We and so she's an exception.

Although you don't as far as I'm aware.

We don't have any female priests.

And we don't have any female prophets or prophetesses or priestesses

in the Old Testament and and

Now the the the references to female prophesying in the New Testament.

What's the particular passage?

Do they cite it?

Well, I like for instance in specifically in 1st Corinthians.

11.

Verse 5 Where every woman who prays or prophesies with her head

uncovered dishonors her head?

So.

You know, what?

Why is it that a woman with her head covered could prophesy?

Well, that's a good I again I would have to do as you did earlier.

I don't understand absolutely everything about that passage, right?

Because I'm not quite sure why a woman's head being uncovered is a disgraceful act in of itself.

And how that's tied to angels watching.

But it's for it is related to Submission and how women showed a

wife would show submission to her husband.

Right, but what I'm assuming that you are under the opinion or the belief

exegetically that the term here a prophesy is something different than

a the role of what a teacher in a church would be this is

this is obviously during a day and age when There was still extra biblical revelation going

on.

Well, there's revelation being given you see once a prophecy.

Well you tongues for instance are untranslated prophecy and I'm

and I Would think that there were women who spoke in tongues and that tongue those

unlearned human languages not ecstatic languages.

I don't believe that's what is Paul is talking about or and you know.

And that the women once the once the tongues are translated they are they are now prophecy.

Remember.

You have to tie this back to the Old Testament.

What what it do you remember when the Holy Spirit came upon the elders and?

They started praising and glorifying God in.

I forget which.

Where was it Leviticus or Numbers?

Of where Moses.

Yeah, he calls the elders right from each of the tribes to come and to go with him to up

the mountain.

And.

They start prophesying right and.

And there are two elders or there were elders that were left behind.

They were.

They didn't get to together and the Spirit came on them.

And what does Moses say.

I would that all men and women or all people would would be would prophesy and.

Of course that's picked up by Joel the prophet Joel right, and

then it's picked up again by Peter on the day of Pentecost and.

That's what we see happening in the early church in the foundational era of the church.

How we would tie all of that in of.

Not every prophecy, of course made it into the New Testament.

All right.

Well, what other what are some of the other?

Texts that would that would prohibit women from the

office bearing of.

Those in authority.

Well, I mean if you go back to if you go back to first Timothy, okay to after what we looked

at right.

If You go to the next chapter chapter 3 and Remember chapter and verse divisions

are not in the original text.

That's something that comes later.

Qualifications for overseers.

This saying is trustworthy if anyone aspires to the it should be any man Aspires to the office overseer.

He desires a noble task.

Wow, it's not pluralized.

That sorry therefore an overseer must be above reproach.

The husband of one wife.

I Know that might have we might have to give a little more specific translation now because

of gender confusion dysphoria.

Well, we don't need any further.

No you and I and hopefully our listeners don't but if there's some out there You need to know husband means male

the spouse of a wife who's a woman.

Okay, so you have all and then you have further qualifications, of course, right.

Sober minded self -controlled respectable hospitable able to teach not a drunkard not a violent not violent but

gentle not quarrelsome not a lover of money.

And those are those are nearly identical to the requirements for a deacon.

That's correct, which would also go back to your original understanding that the deaconate is an

office is prohibited.

To correct it says it and that follows in verse 8 the qualifications for deacons,

right deacons Likewise must be dignified not double -tongued and so on

now.

Now, how do you respond.

Because I have heard and I don't know if how widely this excuse is used.

But there are egalitarians will say that the language is really a generalization.

That would could be equally applied to a woman must be the wife of one husband.

Well.

And yes, that's what I that's what I was raised on and because I know.

But they will say that because there are many even complementarians

of the strictest kind who would say that the Elder or bishop or

overseer does not need to have children in the household because Paul is generalizing.

Well, I would agree with that.

I don't believe that an elder has to or deacon have to be married.

Well, that's that's wrong.

That's why I'm saying that they will say that they are generalizing in the the egalitarian will use the same argument.

Well, are these just generalizing?

No, I think it's if Paul what Paul is saying.

Is that if you're married you have to be the husband of one wife?

Okay, well that that's why it will that I don't.

Because if that's the case if you have to be married with children that leaves Jesus out.

Yeah, but Jesus.

Jesus wasn't an elder in a church though.

Paul wasn't an elder in a church.

Oh, he was an apostle.

Yeah.

Well, that's a different role.

No apostles were elders.

Yeah, I guess you could.

Yeah, okay.

Okay, but but but not a.

He was not a localized elder in one congregation.

Neither was Peter, but he refers to himself as an apostle and an elder.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right.

I'm just going through the no.

You're asking legitimate questions because these are the things that will be raised and I don't pretend to have all the answers.

But I I think you need to allow the clear statements to interpret the less clear statements.

That's a general rule of Bible interpretation.

Is that clear passages are to have?

Authority to to control our understanding of less clear now other than the.

Response of the egalitarian that Paul is generalizing.

Using principles such as monogamy and Successful parenting

would have you heard any other egalitarian response to that clear

text that seems to be unequivocally Prohibiting women from the office

of an elder.

Well, I've already touched upon it.

Catherine Clark Kroger years ago wrote a book on this passage.

We're basically she's arguing that.

That the the word for to exercise authority over al Fentane in the Greek

means to to exercise inappropriate authority.

So it's a slightly different argument as we say that's not what off Fentane is not limited to

inappropriate authority.

It's it's all authority any authority.

But I'm talking about the husband of one wife.

Text.

That you just read.

The elder or overseer must be the husband of one wife, right?

I don't treat that.

I don't understand myself.

I don't understand the word must to mean they must be married.

What I'm asking is what is the.

Have you heard any other?

Egalitarian response to that other than what I just said that he's using generalized language about being a

monogamous.

Married person.

Oh, you mean Bible believing egalitarian?

Yeah, like Bible believing out egalitarians will say that could have easily been translated or

Interpreted.

I should say as a wife must be the woman must be the wife of one husband that Paul is primarily addressing.

Monogamy.

Not a man.

Exclusively being the leader that means you must forget what he said earlier about I do not permit a woman to

teach a man.

Right, but I'm actually just asking you do you know of any other arguments they have?

Not that are coming to mind right now, but there must there probably are.

I'd have to go back and look in the commentaries to See what you know, what what.

Because typically a good commentary will wrestle with Alternative or

contrary views and address them.

Mm -hmm.

So so that I would if I went back to a good first Timothy commentary that's dealing with the Greek

text.

It will deal with the all the historical city, you know, the the all the things I've addressed I've talked about.

So that it clears that clears the clutter out of the out of the attic as it were and

addresses these questions.

I'm just doing this off the top of my head.

So it's you know this he realized.

I wrote this paper 27 or 28 years ago.

Right, you're talking about when you were a Salvation Army member but of course going back

to The root of the issue being in the Garden of Eden.

Correct.

That kind of nullifies all the other are yeah.

Because I don't even kind of it doesn't.

It's it's grounding it in the order of creation.

And it's grounding it secondarily in in the fall, right?

And it fall.

And even if the fall doesn't make sense as a reason that is the reason and we can't question.

Because God's words of the Bible the Paul is a divinely

designated authoritative spokesman.

For the Lord Jesus Christ will for the triune God and what he says

By the way is of equal authority to the words of Jesus.

It's not to diminish the authority of Jesus it's to remind us that the authority of Paul is is

At least what it will you know, it's equal to what?

Is Christ in terms of the you know different parts of the Bible and we don't want to

get into the Practice whether we disaffirm it in Theory

we sometimes fall into the practice of treating Paul's words

as less authoritative than Christ's words and they're not.

Sometimes people will will cite where Paul will say not I but the Lord not not the Lord.

But I in those instances Paul is not like singleness.

Paul is not distinguishing between the Lord's word in his opinion.

He's distinguishing between what the Lord said that is Jesus said in the flesh in the days of his earthly ministry.

And what the Lord is now saying through Paul that's the distinction he's making not the distinction between

Revelation and mere opinion, which is often how People will

will treat whether wanting to have levels of authority in the Bible.

They want to say well, you know Jesus has more authority than Paul or or more authority than Peter

more authority than you know, John.

Whatever the case may be We're saying that the whole Bible is equally authoritative.

That's not to say.

And this I want to cut this off at the pass.

This is not to say that there is not progressive revelation in the history of the giving of the Word of

God.

It's simply to say that is that the New Testament, you know Completes culminates the Old

Testament.

That's not that's we're not wanting to deny.

That there's fuller revelation in the New Testament than there is in the old in terms of the person and work of the Lord Jesus

Christ.

Okay.

Well, let's go to our final break right now.

I'm only going to be playing two ads.

It'll be back very quickly.

And so don't go away.

God willing.

We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

Hi, I'm buzz Taylor frequent co -host with Chris Arnson on iron sharpens iron radio.

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVB BS.

Which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service?

Todd and Patty specialized in supplying reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable

to everyone.

Since.

1987 the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available Christian books and Bibles

at the best possible prices.

Unlike other book sites.

They make no effort to provide every book that is available because frankly Much of what is being printed is not

worth your time.

That means you can get to the good stuff faster.

It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic Heretical and

otherwise faith insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

Their website is CVB BS Comm.

Browse the pages at ease shop at your leisure and purchase with confidence.

As Todd and Patty work in service to you the church and to Christ.

That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at CVB BS comm.

That's CVB BS comm.

Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on iron sharpens iron radio

and don't forget about Cumberland Valley Bible Book Services.

50 off sale on Reformed expository

Commentaries on the Bible including the new one by Richard D Phillips on Revelation all in hardback

if you contact them at CVB BS comm ask about the 50 off sale on commentaries and

mention Chris Arnzen of iron sharpens iron radio.

Every day at thousands of community centers high schools middle schools juvenile institutions

Coffee shops and local hangouts Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young

people who need Jesus.

We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the

lifelong journey of following Christ.

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959.

We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement

To youths in need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future Volunteer.

Donate pray or all of the above for details.

Call Long Island Youth for Christ at 6 3 1 3 8 5 8 3 3 3

that's 6 3 1 3 8 5 8 3 3 3 or visit

liyfc .org That's liyfc .org.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in we have been for the last 90 minutes interviewing pastor Jeffrey C

Waddington of Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Lansdowne, Pennsylvania and

Board member of the Reform Forum.

We have been interviewing him on the subject is Complementarianism tantamount to

misogyny a biblical defense of gender roles in a feminist culture and If you'd

like to join us We have 25 minutes more of this discussion.

And there are several of you waiting to have your questions asked and answered and we'll get to you One by one now as long as

time permits, but if you'd like to get in line Send us an email as quickly as you can before we run out of time to

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and as always Please give us your first name your city and state and your

country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, we have actually a comment not a question from Erin in

Indianapolis, Indiana and She says hi Chris.

I'm I'm finding real comfort in the scriptural truths in today's discussion and agree with

you Completely as a lady I'm Disturbed even angered by the attacks you described by females

about whom you invited to your own private event.

Thank you for standing for the truth.

Well, thank you very much Aaron for a very encouraging word.

And I did not pay Aaron to write that.

And I really appreciate that very much.

Thank you so much because it is an encouragement in the midst of All

that has been said by those who opposed my luncheon.

Thank you very much.

And we have also David in Ada, Ohio

Who says I understand?

Verses 12 through 4 as you are explaining but verse 15 isn't exactly clear.

Could you explain verse 15?

Thank you and First Timothy 2 12 and if we go down to for

15 but women will be preserved through the bearing of children if They continue in the

faith and love and sanctify with self -restraint.

Well, of course that is obviously teaching as the Mormons teach that we are say that women are

saved by By having children know what is that that I I still don't understand.

Yeah, that is an interesting.

That's a good question and the truth is it were we may be a tad bit mystified.

One explanation, which I think has some merit, but I'm not sure that it's fully

convincing or satisfying maybe the better word is That what Paul is saying is that

because of the context in in Ephesus On you know, there are two

two two extremes that go on in Greco -Roman Religion and morality that is

absolute asceticism, which is to deny the legitimacy of Sex within marriage

and then there's the other extreme which is sex all the time whenever I want it with whoever I want it Or

whatever I want it with.

Okay, so so there's the two extremes and Paul may simply be responding to the ascetic

Side by saying that having children does not prevent a woman from being saved.

Because they might have they might have been teaching.

Which was a which was a common philosophical view that the that material is bad.

The spirit is good so therefore Material is bad.

That means the human body is bad.

And if you're a woman that means you're You're carrying more.

You're carrying children giving birth to children that might undermine your

your your access to salvation and Paul is simply saying

that that having children does not cut you off from the Possibility of

being saved now.

I think that's true.

That what that that is true that that having children does not cut you off from the possibility of being

saved which is a really good thing because my mother and my sisters and my wife and lots of married women who've had

and You know other you know women have had children who have come to faith in Christ later on

Would be cut off from salvation if that is not the case.

I don't know that that's exactly what.

Because if you look in the context we're talking about the deception of Eve

So Yet she will be saved through childbearing.

I don't think that means well by means of childbearing or that she will be saved in spite

of giving birth to children.

Does saved even mean?

Salvation in the sense of well, right of.

Entering in salvation, right, right because obviously.

There are words in the in the scriptures that have different meanings with being used.

While using the same word, correct, we save bottles, right?

We we we even use the word redemption with regard to if you have a bottle redemption law.

You take your bottles back to the store and you get a nickel or whatever it is.

And yet now and the and James in his epistle talks about how our we are justified

by our works.

That has nothing to do with being justified by God right in the sense of imputation and being.

Worthy of heaven.

I think the this also may be tied redemptive historically to to the

promise given to Eve that she's the mother of all she's the mother of all living and

Remember she was in Genesis 3 15.

The promise was given that that through her the seed of the woman would eventually

Crush the head of the seed of the serpent.

But of course Christ was already in heaven at the right hand of the Father.

When when this is written, correct?

But but it could be that that that Paul is is is

alluding to that promise.

Here and if that's the case, then even though the seed already was born.

Yeah.

But but he's saying but remember he also says at the end of Romans in chapter 15 or 16 that soon Satan

you will crush Satan's head under your feet.

He says to the Romans.

So you see there's a continued.

In other words, you have beginning with Genesis 3 15.

You have an antithesis between the seed of the woman that is believers and the seed of the serpent

unbelievers.

That continues until Christ returns in his second coming that hasn't changed because he came the first

time now.

Ultimately, he's he's the seed singular.

That that crushed the head of the The the serpent that is Satan at the cross in

particular now there's a sense of there there's a analogical sense in which

We continue as believers to be the seed of the woman because we are united to the

seed.

Okay.

Well, I think that we should actually get move on because that is not that's not that's not even a really addressing.

But that's tied in the two Galatians chapters three and four right.

Because even people.

Biblical scholars on both sides of the egalitarian issue disagree on what that means, right?

So this is not even really pivotal to the topic.

Here we go.

We have a jet.

I'm sorry not Jeff.

We have Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

How does Jeff distinguish his support of complementarianism from patriarchy?

The latter of which has been unapologetically defended and supported by the likes of Tim

Bailey Doug Wilson and others and I'll have you answer that before I move on to Ted's second

question.

Well, I reject patriarchy because patriarchy is generally I would say and I could

because it's not a subject I've.

Dealt with a lot not have.

You do believe in male headship in the home and in yes.

But what I use the word patriarchy, I mean treating women like dirt and

that has happened in.

And obviously a Christian supporting patriarchy would not.

Agree with that definition, right?

That's what I mean when I use the word.

Okay.

Okay.

I'm speaking about my use of the word.

Not someone else's use of the word when I'm using the word patriarchy.

I mean ill drawing illegitimate conclusions from Paul's

Limitation of authority in in the church and the home, right?

But you do wholeheartedly believe that in an exclusive male headship in

The home and the church.

Yes, I do that it does not mean that a man should be so stupid as to not

delegate the Responsibility of decision -making to his wife in many areas right in the home and in the marriage,

right?

But see that patriarchy in mind as I use the expression would usually mean that there there wouldn't be any

of that Mm -hmm in my thing into my in my now again.

There may be a more technical definition, but the way that I use the expression patriarchy

is is is using is being taking the limitations that Paul gives and

Applies them to areas for instance.

Paul does not say that a woman can't be president of the United States.

Although the namesake of your church John Knox believed

Right and John Knox did not continue my thought did not believe that a woman should be in political

office or and being in the throne of Great Britain or anything like that?

That's true.

And and I don't think that he and by the way when he wrote the last trumpet blast

Against the monstrous regiment of women and regiment, which are the women in the view for any of our listeners who aren't from.

This is true.

But but what I mean is is that that the John Knox when he wrote that book as I

understand it Irritated not a few other reformers including John Calvin.

So you see there were differences among the reformers, which we mentioned yesterday and this would be one of them.

I I think that that we need to be careful When we are looking at what would

when the scriptures limit the funk the the authority of a woman in the church.

That that should not be generalized in ways that the scriptures themselves don't support.

Right and going back again to Aquila and Priscilla.

You don't have Priscilla just being a silent woman cowering in the corner waiting waiting for

Aquila to yell out for his next beer, right?

Let's not consider Archie and Edith bunker to be Complementarian

role models or poster children, right?

And well.

Actually Archie had a lot more authority in his own mind than he actually did.

But.

True and then the second question that Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama

has is.

Second how does Jeff sort out some of the less clear applications of complementarianism in pastoral

work?

For example, I heard two pastors who identify as reformed on a podcast literally

laughing off a Suggestion that a pastoral search committee might

include a single woman in an advisory Not voting role only.

Does Jeff think that this would be a silly idea?

If so, how would we decide where to draw the line without?

Overdrawing that line I guess he means a woman that was on this on the pastoral search committee to choose

a person a Man worthy of the office.

I don't think there's any problem with having women on a pastoral search committee because a pastoral search committee is not

necessarily made up of church officers.

Now in most instances church bylaws will require that a Percentage of the pastoral search committee be the session

or you know.

Whatever you name that particular elder board.

And there are reformed congregations where the whole congregation votes on a.

Candidate for well understand that in Presbyterian circles The pastoral search

committee is only recommending to the session the candidates.

Okay, the session presents the men to the congregation to vote.

So the pastoral search committee isn't voting on the final determination.

They are simply sorting.

They are part of the process of sorting through the Plethora the the

multitude and in many instances an OP Church might get 50

applicants.

You've got to find a way to sorts through them and and there's no reason why a single woman cannot

be on that board that that search committee because it's not

made up simply of of Elders or

deacons.

And of course there are times where a woman might know something about a candidate that the.

Men of the church need to know correct and for instance.

Well related to this my wife was the church treasurer at Calvary OPC in Ringo's.

The church treasurer is not a church officer.

She might the church treasurer might be an officer of the trustees.

But the Board of Trustees answers to the session in a Presbyterian setting the not the other way

around.

And.

Leaving the Presbyterian ism aside.

I'm assuming you believe that the bibble the Bible

would not prohibit a woman from being a part of a.

Pastoral search committee.

No, I don't think so.

You'd have.

I mean someone might be able to make an argument, but I've never heard one.

Yeah, right.

I mean if that role insinuated implied or actually straight out

Revealed that Her position had an authoritative nature to it over men then it

would be wrong.

Right.

At that point then you'd have like if that woman said to a male in the church

You have no say in this my opinion is more valuable.

I'm sorry.

Step back, right?

That would then then that person it would be eligible to be removed, right?

Well, thank you Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

Keep sending in insightful questions and keep listening to iron trip and zirin and spreading the

word about this program in Tuscaloosa, Alabama and beyond.

And Before we run out of time.

I'd like to give you like five minutes or so of uninterrupted time to unburden your heart

to Summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today in regard to this very

controversial topic.

A topic that divides brothers and sisters in Christ sadly.

But an important topic that we must stand firmly on what we believe our

biblical convictions are.

And Before I let you Before

I let you continue with five minutes.

Me being an authority here.

The.

One thing I wanted to say that we didn't address unlike some of the the more historic

Denominations that go back to perhaps the 18th century where women were allowed in

leadership.

Such as the Wesleyan holiness and the the Salvation Army.

Don't.

You believe that the hermeneutic that many modern -day Denominations

and churches and congregations and fellowships the hermeneutic that is being used to justify

female Office bearers is the same Identical hermeneutic

that leftists use to legitimize Homosexuals as office bearers and even as

legitimate born -again.

Believers.

Yes.

In fact, this beat was an issue when I was trying.

I was involved with a Bible study a few years ago in an attempt to plant a

church this came up and and it was interesting because Everybody that was

attending that Bible study that we were praying and hoping would become a church plant.

Were there because they were dissatisfied with their mainline denominations that were caving in on the

homosexual agenda.

But they were all in favor of female ordination and I said don't you see that this is the same

Hermeneutic the same interpretive process.

You've simply drawn an arbitrary line as to how far you will go.

But if you were and I'm glad that's a happy inconsistency however.

The logic of your position is that I don't like what Paul says here.

So I will explain it away.

That's what they're doing.

You know, they may not realize it, but that's really what they're doing.

So therefore others over here say I don't like what Paul says.

So I'm going to explain it away now that or they will just simply say that's what Paul said, but he's wrong.

I actually prefer Scholars and people who say yes, you're right.

That's what Paul says.

Paul says I do not allow a woman to have authority over a man.

But he was wrong.

Oh.

You know one one last thing that I forgot was an egalitarian.

Response to that that I have heard is that the egalitarians will say that a woman is not

to usurp or rob.

Authority from a that's actually what I what I was talking about with Cath Catherine Clark.

Okay, the Al Fenton to to exert illegitimate

authority.

The word Al Fenton does not have the the the illegitimate aspect.

It's simple authority.

So that was a dispute within the broader evangelical community about about the

Greek and.

And so the issue is not whether a woman should exercise

Shouldn't exercise this kind of authority over a man.

Paul is saying you shouldn't exercise authority period.

Over a man in the church.

Well, do you forgive me for not remembering that?

You phrased it in a much more intelligible way.

So I layman's a layman's way a much easier way to grasp.

But that was the out that was the gist of the argument you may.

You may remember because you're closer to my age, but back in the 80s There was this whole debate over

headship.

Mm -hmm a source and Wayne Grudem was involved.

You may remember and he was saying that source involves authority.

It's not just origin.

You know where something comes from.

It's also Stressing Authority over something and that that

was also involved in this whole context and it's it's.

Anyway, so you were gonna give me five minutes.

Yes, which we have exactly.

Yes, Lee according to my watch.

Yes, so I Would say as we've as you've already said

Those who disagree with us.

I.

Believe that that having women in positions officer positions, which means

pastor elder or deacon.

Any of those or minister elder deacon.

However, you want to label them that that those are offices for men

only.

That doesn't mean that men are ontologically superior to women.

That's not what Paul argues it in.

Verse.

Versus first Timothy to where he's dealing with Adam and Eve.

However, he does limit that that office those offices to men.

While it is true that we might be able to read in the qualifications for elders and

deacons.

You might say well we could simply say we can say we can reverse this and say well

Paul is saying it should be a man a husband of one wife.

It could also be convertible to a wife of one husband.

Well, that's certainly that's certainly true in logic, but it's not what Paul says.

So at that point we're going beyond what Paul says but going back to the I would want to to

to stress that.

That this is a matter I believed of biblical of obedience to God's Word.

That's all and I want I want Christians Across this land and

around the world to to be obedient to God's Word.

I Pray that that's true in my life.

I know it's not I'm not perfect.

I There are many things that that must be brought under the Lordship of Christ that and

renewed daily.

I Remind myself through the reading of God's Word of the Holy Spirit reminds me through the

reading of his word.

That there are areas of my life which need to still be worked on.

But this is this seemed this is an issue that that because the culture is against us

we see.

Not only in this area but in the other areas that we've already talked about the church is caving in is

folding like a cheap suit and It's and it's nerve -wracking and now

we we all know that we shouldn't put trust our trust in princes that is in in fellow

human beings, although We we want to be careful how we understand that the Lord

isn't saying saying be cynical.

The Lord is saying Ultimately your trust has to be in him and not in your fellow

human beings because we're we're sinful fallible human beings.

Even those of us who are saved by grace We still are fighting against the world the flesh and the devil.

However, there are brothers and sisters who are on the opposite side of this issue who

are believers.

I.

I.

Literally have brothers or I have sisters who are on the opposite side of this issue.

And one last thing very quickly since we are going to be out of time in seconds is that.

Very often the fault is I'm not saying this is a legitimate reason for women to violate the scriptures.

But men have so often done a horrible job fulfilling their roles in the scripture.

Yes that it has given a gateway for these things to occur.

That's correct.

Well, we're out of time and I want to make sure that our listeners have the all the contact information the

Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Lansdowne, Pennsylvania can be contacted at Knox dash

Presbyterian org.

That's KN OX dash Presbyterian org and the reformed forum.

Can be found at reformed forum org.

Reformed forum org.

Say that ten times fast.

And it's been such a pleasure having you in studio.

I look forward to you returning.

I hope that everybody listening has a wonderful safe and blessed weekend and Lord's

Day.

And I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior Than you

are a sinner.