Bow Tie Dialogue: Church of God

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Sometimes I feel the weight of the world fall down on me

00:10

So heavy And I need a friendly voice with some good theology

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Helping to see me speaking So I mix a manly drink Pepsi Shoe polish

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And I hit the YouTube link Don't say hit, that sounds violent And I feel my troubles all melt away

00:31

Oh -oh -oh -oh It's your Calvinist Podcast with Keith Volosky Beards and bow ties

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Laughs till sunrise It's your

00:49

Calvinist Podcast with Keith Volosky He's not like most

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Calvinists He's nice Your Calvinist Podcast is filmed before a live studio audience

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And welcome everyone to Bowtie Dialogues On this edition of Your Calvinist Podcast My name is

01:14

Keith Volosky and as always I am your Calvinist And I'm excited today to do another

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Bowtie Dialogue I don't get to do these a lot So this is an opportunity for me to talk to a pastor

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Or pastors from another denomination Ask questions And I want to say from the outset Just to remind everybody

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This is not a debate This isn't an opportunity to argue This is just an opportunity to ask somebody

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Who holds to some different convictions And theological positions Why they hold those positions

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What brought them to where they are today Were they born in this denomination Is this something that they converted to From another denomination

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Or maybe something else So it's really just an opportunity To have a lot of fun

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Now my guest today is John Jones I'm going to bring him in in just a moment But before I do that I just want to remind you of a couple of things

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First of all Your Calvinist Podcast is a ministry Of Sovereign Grace Family Church So if you're in the

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Jacksonville area Come see us at sgfcjacks .org That's where you'll find the times The location

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And everything you need to know about the church And you can see us there at sgfcjacks .org

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Also we are promoting And continuing to promote 1689 Cigars They're good friends over there

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And if you purchase cigars It helps some men who are in ministry And so you can go there

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And put in the coupon code SuperiorTheology And you will get a discount On your next good cigars

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Finally I want to mention also The website If you want to get a hold of me If you have a question you'd like me to address In a future episode

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You can go to KeithFoskey .com And if you think the website is great Let the guys know over at Fellowship Studios They put it together for us

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And if you need a good website You can go and talk to them They would be happy to do the same for you

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Alright I'm going to bring John in now This is Big John John Jones is a member with me

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Of the Truth and Love Network He has a podcast called Real Talk with Big John And he is also the pastor

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Of Laurel Memorial Church of God In Tennessee Wait I was going to say

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Tennessee Is it Tennessee brother? Tell me where it's at Mooresville, North Carolina North Carolina I get those mixed up all the time

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And I apologize I wanted to get it right And I messed up right there at the end So how long have you been the pastor

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Of Laurel Memorial Church there In North Carolina? Not very long I've been the lead pastor there

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For a little over two months Currently I've been there since I want to say it was

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June of last year Is whenever I came on Knowing that the former pastor Was looking to resign

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And he wanted whoever was going to Put in for the church

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To get to know the congregation And let the congregation get to know him And find out whether or not

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They thought he'd be a good fit And I thought that sounded like good advice From a man who's been doing something

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For over four decades So that's what I did I moved my membership From over in Iron Station To Mooresville And sat under him for almost a year

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Now is this your first pastorate? In the sense of lead pastorate Yes I was associate pastor

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At Real Life Community Church In Iron Station for I really don't know how many years exactly

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I didn't Titles Were kind of not as big a thing Still aren't really a big thing to me

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And we did the job of outreach And I helped with the music And helped pastor for Probably close to eight years

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Or so I think you would call that Maybe your circle is kind of like an elder Because I taught

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I preached behind the pulpit some I taught Sunday school Led Bible studies

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And stuff like that For some time Okay And just to let everyone know

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Just a few months Well it wasn't even a few months ago I guess it was just a few weeks ago now You and I preached together At the

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Laborers Conference Being part of the Truth and Love Network They have something called The Laborers Podcast Every Thursday night

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Some of the guys get on And talk about theology I rarely get to participate Because Thursday night Tends to be pretty busy for me

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Late in the week Getting ready for Sunday and everything But I know you get on there sometimes And talk And I know we've been on there

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For a while now How long have you been part of The Truth and Love Network? Pretty close to the beginning I think

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It's probably three years By the time it's all said and done with Brother Robert The guy who founded it and myself

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Were actually part of a prayer group On Saturday mornings Back during the pandemic

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It was meeting on Zoom And a common friend of ours Who's not in the network His name is

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Brandon Akin He's a Church of God pastor as well He hosted the prayer conference

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And he asked anybody who would To come and pray for You know Each other, communities

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And that's how Rob and I met And he asked a couple times for me To do some outreach with him

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Which I was glad to do And we just kind of hit it off Rob's a good friend And a brother in the

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Lord Even though we disagree on some things I think he's a solid guy And his church is well blessed

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To have him on staff there Yeah Well we're going to talk about Some of those things you mentioned

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That you guys don't agree on everything And I know certainly You and I don't either Sure But I always tell people

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You know You deserve the right to be wrong So it's okay That's what I usually say I usually tell people

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I deserve the right to be wrong And I have been wrong before You know Those are usually

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I leave those days for Tuesdays I don't like to be wrong every day But I try to set aside A day of the week

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And I'll just be wrong on that day Since today's Friday No, I'm just kidding You're going to be right today

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I don't know We're going to try Well Well I think you'll be right

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On the things that I ask you about Because I'm going to be asking you About your particular church And denomination

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How long have you been part Of the Church of God And And how did you become

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Part of the Church of God Can you share that story with us Absolutely So The first time

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I went To a Church of God service Was I suppose it was March of 2010 I was saved that month

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And I was If you've ever watched Any of the Laborers podcast You've heard my testimony

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But regardless I come to know the Lord In my living room On a I believe it was a

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Sunday evening In March And The following Sunday I said I believe

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A man ought to go to church If he If he claims to know Christ So I got up that morning And I went to the

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Baptist church That my wife was a member of And they're good people Right up the road here The church was nice The pastor was nice Everything about the

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Everything about that Sunday Was great There wasn't a single negative thing I could say But the man who had been

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Ministering to me In a sense that Kind of a day by day Witnessing to me His name Was Chad And I didn't tell him

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I was going to say anything So I'm not going to say his last name For the sake of You know Obvious reasons Anyway He He went to a church of God In Lincolnton And he had

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Continued He's always inviting me to church To which I was always saying You know Yeah okay one of these days I'll go And I To which

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I really meant I was never going to go And They met only on Sunday nights

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At the time Because they were still Working on their building And another local church Was allowing them to use Their sanctuary

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On Sunday evenings To gather While their While their building was being Constructed and stuff So I went over there

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And You know I hate to use the term Fell in love Because it sounds like an accident

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And I absolutely despise That term Love is not something That's accidental It's something that Is purposeful

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And everything But Whenever The pastor that night Began to preach For the first time

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In my entire life I knew what he was saying He spoke in a way That I just understood

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What he was preaching from He He He opened the Bible up I don't recall exactly I want to say

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He was reading Through Exodus and Joshua At that time But it was so clear

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His His subject matter Was Followed through His His delivery was great

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I didn't care too much About the music I've never Believe it or not As much as I play music I've never been a driving factor

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Or force around why I went to a certain church But But the people that were there They welcomed me in We They were teaching scripture to me

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And I thought Man I really enjoy Everything From the From the preaching

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To the atmosphere Of the Of the congregation It really did look Like these people As crazy as this sounds

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Brother Foskey Actually loved one another Like they actually cared About one another

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And their children And the other people's children And And I I wasn't I wasn't much of a hugger

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At all And I remember walking In the back door And trying to sit down And one of the largest men

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I've ever seen in my life Wrapped both arms around me And just full hug I was like Whoa dude Whoa bro Turn me loose

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You know And I mean I would come to find out That these guys Whenever they would say

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They'd say weird stuff Whenever they'd go home Like shake hands Hug one another Say I love you I'll see you next Sunday And they treated each other

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The same way that They treated their own family And As good as the

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Baptist church up the road was I didn't see that Right There was something I don't know

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There's just something different And I hate to use that word Because it sounds So ambiguous And you can't

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You know You can't label something Because it has no No defining characteristics There's no objective

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Characteristic to it So I just started going And eventually After having

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Been going for Close to a year I decided to To ask if I could Join the church

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And I've been a part of The church of God ever since Nobody else in my family Was a member of the church of God As far as I know

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So Well that's That's interesting And I do want to follow up On a question there

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Because you said Your wife was in the Baptist church Was your wife saved How long How long before you

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Was she saved She wasn't I guess that's the right way To ask that Okay she wasn't saved But she thought I guess she was still

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A member of the church Going and thinking she was Or was that it No she didn't She didn't go to the church On any regularity

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Her family were members Of the church And she was a member Of the church Before we were married And it was

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Much like I'm sad to say Much like a lot Of the south here We live in the bible belt

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And because of that You're a Christian Unless proven otherwise Right And She She was not a believer

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In the sense that That she adhered to any Biblical standard The whole time

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I knew her Nor was I I was By I suppose

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Denomination or affiliance I was a Methodist We went to the United Methodist church And my wife and I When we were going to get married

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The Methodist church That I had been a member of For so long Was really small And her church Was really small

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And she said We can't have the wedding She wanted in either church This is how women think Especially unbelieving women

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And There was a large Baptist church in Cherville Where I was born and raised That could

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House the number of people She planned on inviting So believe it or not I joined A Baptist church

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They baptized me in everything Just so we could be members Of that church And get married in it

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And Wow And Yeah it was When I look back at that It's Well It's shameful

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But that's as real And as honest As I can be about it No I Appreciate the honesty

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And I know that happens A lot of times Does it? You certainly are not unique in that I think people

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People are Joining churches For all kinds of wrong reasons And maybe not to get married But I mean

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People People Maybe I remember one man Told me years ago He was pretty well known

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In our town Jacksonville is a big city But a small town I tell people It's a big city But it's got a small town feel

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People know one another A lot of times There's just like It's just It's a weird place

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But There was a man here Who was very well known In fact If I named his name There's a

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There's a There's bridges And streets Named after his Oh wow And he was told

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Well if you want to run For city council You're going to have to join First Baptist church Of Jacksonville And he said

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Well wait a minute Why do I got to join First Baptist church Of Jacksonville Why can't I just join You know Little community church

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In my area And they said Well if you want to be Politically connected In this city You got to join

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The right church So when you said You know you joined Church for a wedding And I said You know well

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I think People join for the wrong reasons And by the way He didn't do that He just didn't run He said I'm not going to do that But it's just funny

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It's just funny how You know Maybe 40 50 years ago Being a part of A certain church

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Might give you Some political clout Might give you Specific standing In the city Nowadays I think

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That's kind of gone away I think we're in A different place And time where You know That might not be As important But 40 years ago

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It was much different Sure So So you being A church of God Pastor And having

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Essentially Not necessarily Gotten saved But I would say You got saved Through the ministry Of a church of God Man You know that That was

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That's fair And so And so you didn't You didn't convert Out of that From You know

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You said you grew up In a Methodist church But you didn't Convert out of that And you got

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Converted into it As it were And so What is your Your history

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As far as like When you When you became Part of the church of God And you decided To pursue that for ministry

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How did that look? What's What's your history Of becoming a pastor? Is there a Do they send you to school?

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Do they do an in -house training? Is it like on the job type thing? And I don't know if that's what you'd call it

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I just I know sometimes Yeah I know in some churches They have like The apprenticeships and stuff

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For the For men going into ministry So maybe that's a better word But how did it work for you? So for me

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It worked by First I believe God called me

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For ministry For one We wanna start with With where the call comes from Right? I mean you're

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You're ordained by people Essentially But you're called by God Is that fair? Sure Yeah I think that calling

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I would say that calling Begins with a desire In your heart That you know that God's Giving you this desire

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To do this thing Which is preach his word Yeah Absolutely And my My So in the church of God The way it worked for me was

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Once I accepted the call To To minister I I wasn't

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Intending on becoming A lead pastor In the church In fact I wanted to I wanted to do evangelism work

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Primarily Like as a As a general rule That's where That's where my heart is

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And So that's That's the way I started

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It was An evangelism Outside the church Inside the church In any ways

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I could The I mean that's a long Long drawn out story I won't get into all All of it

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But suffice to say Whenever I answered the call To preach I went through a

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Process inside the church of God Called the calling And ministering service CAMS for short

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And It's a It's a program That people who

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Either Either can't Go to a A formal A formal seminary school

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Either because of money Or age Or location And for me It was kind of The location

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And age I was a grown man With four children And a full time job And the closest

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Seminary school Is in Cleveland, Tennessee And it just It wasn't

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It wasn't possible For me to go Enroll in that school So calling And ministering services

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Is about a year long Course where you Study You know

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Old testament New testament survey You study The minutes Of the church of God Which is what

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I brought here For some Clarification Some areas Which is what their Declaration of faith is

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You study the history Of the church You study the offices And the The what you call

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The polity Of the church And And the background For Why we believe

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What we believe And things like that As well as Write papers And such And at the end of that You're qualified To take a test

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And that test That you take Pass or fail Would give you A license to minister

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In a In the Office of what's called An exhorter And in that exhorter office

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You can Defend the gospel I think I think it's hanging on the wall

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I'll go get it There's a There's a certificate they give you That says that the church of God Gives you permission On their behalf

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To defend the gospel Of Jesus Christ That's the way it's worded Right But what I wasn't allowed to do

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In that office Was to Baptize Without the The supervision

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Of a Of an elder Or Take in members

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Perform weddings Or funerals In that office There's a handful You're limited in what capacity

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The church will allow you to work Under their umbrella Under their license And The next level of licensure

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Is called an ordained minister Which is where I am Currently And At the After you

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Pass the exhorters Exam And you're Licensed as a minister You qualify To go into What is called

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The minister's internship program Which is what I went through Where I had OJT From a senior pastor

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And there was Again Another nine months To a year Of formal education

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On the weekends At the State office Where Bishops And Doctors of theology

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Would come and Donate their time And we would Go over Further And deeper Topics That we went over In CAMS You know

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You sort of just Dig into it Instead of being a survey Of the Old Testament Now you're going more Into The minor

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Major prophets Psalms The creation accounts And things like that You get a little deeper Into every subject matter

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And You spend The times During the week With your supervising

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Pastor Fulfilling obligations That the church says Have to be fulfilled Before You're finished

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With the program When you're finished With that program Provided that you Graduate and pass And then you're

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Qualified to take Another test At the end of that test You would be If you pass it

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Would be An ordained minister And The final Licensing level

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Which I'll probably Apply for next year Is What's called An ordained bishop And this

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This is An office That currently Is only available To men In the church of God And Inside the office

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Of bishop You're allowed to vote On Subject matter That makes it Into the minutes

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Of the church of God Into the bylaws You're allowed to vote On polity In a higher regard

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Than you can From an ordained minister's Perspective But you have to be An ordained minister In good standing

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With the church of God For seven years If you're under the age Of thirty Or five years

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If you're over the age Of thirty And Actively In Like pulpit ministry

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And stuff like that If you've done that For seven years Or five years According to your age Respectively You're allowed to take

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A test Which is Which will be The most intense test Of all of them And at the end of that Provided you pass

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You become what's considered An ordained bishop Those are the Rules Surrounding licensure

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And I'm currently At the ordained minister level Sure And This You brought

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Up a point That I did want to At least Ask you about And that is You said Up until The bishop

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Or the bishop role Is the one that's Limited to men But under that The other two roles

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I'm assuming Based on what you said The minister role And maybe the licensure role Would be open to women It is

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In the church of God Okay It is And The reason that bishop Is Off limits

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Even though it's Continually debated Every general assembly The way I understand it Is because Timothy 2 and 12

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Right You don't allow a woman To hold authority over a man Bishop being the highest rank Inside of the church

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If a woman Was a bishop Then she would Hold authority over Ordained ministers In their area

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And would be Available to be an overseer We have a centralized Form of government So that I have a boss

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Even though I'm the pastor Of the church And the church is Is my responsibility All aspects of the church

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I'm to look after and guard Everything from the Building and grounds To the finances To the people Every area of it

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I'm held accountable for By my overseer Who's the pastor Down the road At Mooresville Church of God And He's got

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I think seven churches That he's in charge of And then underneath him Above him

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I should say Is the State overseer Who has All the states

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Our states split Western North Carolina And Eastern North Carolina So everything in the Western North Carolina region

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Is under the State overseer And of course he's held Accountable to His council

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And the international Or the General overseer Which is

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Going to change hands this year So So the church of God Then In that sense

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I mean seems to be Structured Maybe a little bit More formally Than I ever realized

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You know I grew up With my momma Going to Well she would go to What are called

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Holiness churches Or congregational Methodist churches But she would also A lot of times We would visit

23:31

Church of God Because she had friends In those churches And a lot of times They'd do things together I don't know In your area

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But you know down here The church of God And the Holiness churches Would have Similar doctrines

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Not a hundred percent The same But they would be similar But I don't remember There being this Level of structure

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But again I don't I can't say to that She may She may text me Because she listens To all my shows She may text me later

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And say yes we do And I just didn't know About it But And I love my momma Happy Mother's Day Momma Happy Mother's Day Yeah But you know

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I don't know Their structure Because even though I grew up Going there With her You know her And my daddy

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Got divorced And I would Go to the church I'm in now The majority of the time Because it was a church That my stepmom

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Brought me to So And happy Happy Mother's Day To my stepmom But in that Having said that When I think about The Church of God You know

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The way you're saying it I mean It's It's structured You know At the local level At the

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State level And you even mentioned Internationally How many church of God Churches And you may not know

24:39

The exact number But it seems like Have to be pretty big What's the number As far as As far as you know

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As church of God In the world I can't even Begin I could look I give my newest book

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Away to a girl At church Who was wanting to know More about the Order and structure And the polity

24:56

So the One I have here Is from four years ago Or six years ago So it would be

25:01

Outdated information My understanding Is that Well If it gives you any help

25:08

In western North Carolina There's 700 Licensed ministers And Wow And that's

25:14

That's just Western North Carolina There's 30 30 church of gods

25:19

In my county Okay The only thing Even close to that Would be

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Baptist churches Right But the Wesleyan holiness Movement is what

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A church of God Is Is technically Classified as I suppose Because The church of God Was born out of A Methodist and Wesleyan Revival meeting

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In Schur schoolhouse In east Tennessee Western North Carolina Mountain range And 1896

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I think it was Or 1886 Here I am Fixed to take a test Next year And I forgot Which year it was found

25:51

Anyway They were meeting At a schoolhouse And The Holy Spirit Showed up And changed

25:59

Everybody Forever And The people inside Of that Congregation Began To dress

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Differently Which is where Some of the traditions In the holiness Movement Still continue To this day Where men Always wore long

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Sleeve shirts Women always wore Long denim Dresses Their hair Stayed put up Men never Exposed their wrists

26:17

And never wore Watches or wedding bands And things of that nature You know If your mother Is holiness

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You understand The atmosphere I'm talking about I remember

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I remember Hearing a Person say That he wouldn't Wear a long Sleeve shirt

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And correct me If I'm wrong I'm not This is in no way Trying to be You know This is what

26:40

I heard So again If he said Because the exposure Of the arms Was a Could Arouse the

26:47

The hearts Of the women Or something It's something To that effect And that might be Again It might just be

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His opinion But he said You know We all Wear long Sleeve shirts Because the Arms were I guess

26:58

Tentilating Or whatever The word is I'm trying to say I don't adhere

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To that And the Church of God Doesn't really Adhere to that In a sense

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That they may Have at one time There's some Practical rules

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That is still In the books And I think That they're sensible And I think

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They should stay In there Most of the ones That I think Are most

27:26

Applicable Deal with What you watch What you listen to We don't

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We don't Talk about it An awful lot Anymore in society It seems like Except for Areas like Pornography Where we're

27:39

All together In one agreement That men And women Should avoid Pornography At all costs Whether it's

27:45

Visual or audio Or whatever You know But in this In this Man, it's

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It actually Talks about anything That takes the Lord's name in vain You should stay away from And I agree

27:57

You shouldn't be You shouldn't be Watching anything That's using such Filthy language As it's

28:02

Using the Lord's name As a cuss word Or something like that If nothing else Out of respect

28:07

For the Lord You know You shouldn't Do that But that's still In the book there At least this copy

28:12

Of the book But stuff like Wearing long sleeves That's I'm wearing long sleeves

28:19

Dave That has absolutely Zero to do with My convictions It was the first shirt I came to So that's what

28:24

I put on The Long sleeves in Florida Is really hard I don't want to interrupt you

28:31

But But Around here I mean I wear long sleeves I wear a coat When I preach In general

28:36

I wear you know A suit But most of the time I do not Just because It is

28:41

We get 90 degrees In February So I mean It's hot in North Carolina But believe it or not

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I spent I spent a long time Working in a powerhouse And it's extremely hot In a powerhouse In some areas

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You can't stay But minutes at a time It can Temperatures can get over 160 degrees In some places

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And It's just literally Life and death You don't go in there For very long at a time But you have to wear

29:04

Long sleeves Because you have to Keep that heat off your Off your skin While you're in those areas You have to have

29:09

Some fire protection Clothing on So that you don't catch on fire And stuff like that And I don't know if you ever wore Any kind of fire protective clothing

29:15

But it's hot Right? Oh yeah So I actually got used to Wearing long sleeves

29:21

Everywhere I go For the longest time Because for Almost 20 years I've worked with With long sleeves on And I stay cool

29:29

With them on Because it keeps The sun off my skin So you can drive By the house sometimes You'll see me Bush hogging

29:34

And I'll have on A long sleeve Cotton shirt And I'll be soaking wet But Yeah Well let me ask you this

29:43

About the doctrines Of the church Because This is where I think A lot of people Would be interested And I tell you

29:49

Just talking about The polity Has interested me Just how you're structured And the different Levels of authority

29:56

And how you guys work That's very interesting But When it comes to Let's just say

30:02

The things that are Most distinguishable Because I think I would hope That we would all agree On doctrines like The Trinity And justification by faith

30:10

And things like that I think as believers We would affirm those things But the doctrines

30:15

That you would say Distinguish you from me As a Baptist And it doesn't have to be

30:21

The Calvinist stuff But if you want to mention that You can I know you're not a Calvinist And that's okay But But you are also

30:28

You hold to other doctrines That would say You're not Baptist And what would those be? So I can't speak 100 %

30:36

To what Baptist doctrine is If I can be honest Believe it or not I did go to a Baptist Seminary Before I Went to CAMS But they didn't spend

30:46

A great deal of time Going over Baptist teaching Because it was not Taught by Baptists It was a Conglomeration of Doctors Some of them

30:53

From different backgrounds And they Strictly taught Whatever textbook They were assigned to teach And they didn't teach

30:58

A doctrinal position So much as they taught If they were teaching Homiletics They taught homiletics

31:04

If they were teaching hermeneutics They taught hermeneutics And so on But what I do have If you're interested Is I have

31:11

The Declaration of Faith And I can read The 14 points of them Or summarize

31:16

The 14 points of them And you can say Where you're in agreement Where you're not If that's easy enough Oh that would be great

31:22

That'd be fun actually I wonder If the audience As they're listening to this

31:27

If they're going to have Some thoughts So if you have thoughts In the comments And you want to Add or subtract

31:33

Your own thoughts Do that in the comments While Big John goes through this So we We believe

31:38

Point number one In the verbal inspiration Of the Bible Point two In one

31:43

God Eternally existing In three persons Namely the Father, Son And Holy Ghost Point three That Jesus Christ Yes sir

31:49

I tell you Before you get to each one I'm just going to say Affirm So I affirm number one I affirm number two So stop after each one

31:56

And let me think For just a second Before you run to the next one Because I want to But I absolutely affirm The inspiration of Scripture And the

32:02

And the And that God is Trinity And that's what that sounds like Those are affirming So yes sir Absolutely Okay Point three

32:09

That Jesus Christ Is the only begotten son Of the Father Conceived of the Holy Ghost Born of the Virgin Mary That Jesus was crucified

32:15

Buried and raised from the dead That he is ascended to heaven And is today at the right hand Of the

32:21

Father As the intercessor Yeah That's very similar To the Apostles' Creed Not exactly

32:26

But of course It's a similar language For sure Absolutely Point four That all have sinned

32:31

And come short of the glory of God And repentance is commanded of God For all And is necessary For the forgiveness of sin

32:38

Amen Yeah Point number five That justification Regeneration And new birth

32:44

Are wrought by faith In the blood of Jesus Christ Yeah I would

32:49

I might say that one A little differently As a Calvinist I believe that That regeneration Actually produces faith

32:55

But I believe all of them Are works of the Spirit So yes I would agree I would just maybe say it A little differently

33:00

But yeah Point number six I could I think I could affirm that Yeah Yeah In sanctification

33:05

Subsequent to a new birth Through faith in the blood of Christ Through the word And by the Holy Ghost Amen Yeah Sanctification Is a

33:14

Is a byproduct Of our being born again Yeah I agree Absolutely Point seven Holiness to be

33:20

God's standard of living For his people Yes I I absolutely agree

33:26

I I wonder, though If there would be distinctions In how we would define What it means to live a holy life

33:31

Because I know there are certain External practices Which might be Which might differ

33:37

You know Sure Sure Some people would hold to Like absolutely Abstaining from alcohol

33:42

Would be a sign of holiness Or something like that And that may be A conversation But ultimately I agree with the statement

33:47

For sure Eight In the baptism of the Holy Ghost Subsequently to a clean heart

33:53

Have to be defined but obviously I believe the baptism of the Spirit. Yes, absolutely. So point nine, in speaking with other tongues as the

34:02

Spirit gives utterance, as that is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Would disagree with that.

34:08

Yes. Okay. Number 10, in water baptism by immersion and all who repent should be baptized in the name of the

34:16

Father and the Son of the Holy Ghost. Amen. As a Baptist, a double amen for sure.

34:23

Yes. Eleven, divine healing is provided for all in the atonement. I would disagree with that.

34:30

Yep. Okay. In the Lord's Supper and the washing of the saints' feet.

34:37

That's point number 12. That's an interesting one and one that might be worth a whole show dedicated to it, and that's the foot washing as a practice, because I certainly don't disagree with it being practice, but some people consider it a third ordinance.

34:53

Would you consider it that way, John? Sacrament. I would.

35:00

Okay. And you use the word sacrament. That's interesting because a lot of folks, a lot of Baptists shy away from the word sacrament and prefer the word ordinance, depending on, you know,

35:10

Reformed Baptists normally don't, but Southern Baptists and a lot of independent Baptists do not like the word sacrament.

35:16

They feel like it ties it to Rome and Catholicism and things like that.

35:21

Well, because of the seven sacraments of Rome that they hold to as being instruments of God's grace being distributed by the church.

35:32

And so it's just that the word is typically not used in a lot of Baptist circles.

35:37

So it depends, again, depends on the Baptist, but that's interesting that you use it and you say foot washing is one.

35:44

Okay. Let's see. We're up to point number 13. We believe in the premillennial second coming of Jesus, first to the resurrection of the righteous dead and to catch away the living saints to him in the air, second to reign on earth for a thousand years.

35:59

Okay. So pre -tribulation, premillennial. I would consider it premillennial. I don't know that you have to consider it pre -trib because I don't see a tribulation in that statement.

36:10

Okay. No, that's true. Okay. That's fair enough. So 14th, the final one and the bodily resurrection, eternal life for the righteous and eternal punishment for the wicked.

36:21

Yes, absolutely. Okay. So there was only, I think if I counted right, I think there was only three that I would say

36:28

I disagree with. And even then it was ones you would typically disagree with if you hold to a more

36:38

Pentecostal perspective. And is Church of God, is it labeled

36:43

Pentecostal? Is it? Yeah. We're a Pentecostal church. I don't like the term charismatic because it's been hijacked by groups of idiots.

36:57

And I just, I'll just put it at that, right? The Church of God, the Church of God is the oldest

37:02

Pentecostal church that I know of in the world. Okay. So, but now they released some inside the

37:11

Church of God that would consider the Church of God charismatic. And I think you can, if you understand the definition, right?

37:18

So like all Pentecostals will be charismatic, but not all charismatics are

37:25

Pentecostals. All thumbs or fingers, but not all, or not all thumbs or fingers, but not all fingers or thumbs is the way

37:32

I kind of put that. It's, there's charismatic people out there that ain't

37:39

Christian. Sure. Right. So, yeah. Well, and we would also say there's

37:45

Baptist and Pentecostals that ain't Christians either, but I know what I mean. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

37:50

Yeah. Yeah. By definition, they're not. Yeah. So when it comes to the ones that we would probably come to different conclusions on, the first one was the, if I remember right, going down the list,

38:05

I think it was the expression of tongues. And I do have a question for you about that.

38:10

Actually, I have a couple of questions that I'm not, again, this is not a debate program, not looking for a fight, just out of my own experience.

38:18

I want to ask you a couple of questions and see how you would answer them. The first one is the question of, have you personally, or do you personally actively speak in tongues?

38:29

I have. It's not something that I find that happens every time

38:35

I pray. I've heard some people say they pray in tongues every day. Obviously I have not. But I have, in fact, before you can begin your journey into ministry, one of the questions they ask you is if you have, you can't be a licensed minister in the church of God until you, until some, and not just your truthfully, not just your word, if done correctly, there's a witness that, that your sign signs that.

39:03

So yeah, there's that answer. Okay. So, so then it would be certainly believe then based on that, that, that ministers have to have the gift.

39:16

Do you believe this is a gift that all believers who have been filled with the spirit will have based on the testimony of your confession that you just read?

39:24

So now that's where you're going to find there's a difference between being filled and being baptized.

39:31

Okay. Just definitionally, I can fill this cup with Pepsi and shoe polish, which, which

39:37

I didn't. Right. And that would be, that would be being filled. But whenever I put it in the sink and wash it, that's, it's being baptized in something at that point immersed.

39:49

So there's a difference between that. We, uh, the church of God believes that all those people who are baptized with the

39:55

Holy spirit, uh, the initial evidence of that is speaking in other tongues. And that's the way that it's worded on your application.

40:03

Have you been baptized with the Holy spirit as evidence was speaking in other tongues, the, uh, but we would believe that you're filled with the

40:11

Holy spirit when you're saved. Okay. So that would answer the question of Romans eight, where it says, if you have not the spirit of Christ, you don't belong to him.

40:19

Right. So, so you would say a person can have the spirit of Christ and not be baptized by the spirit.

40:25

Exactly. Okay. All right. So that, it would be referred to when Jesus tells his disciples, uh, on the shore, whenever they're fishing after his ascension or before his ascension, but after his, his, uh, resurrection, he says, he breathes on them says, receive you the

40:40

Holy ghost. Right. And then he says, Terry in Jerusalem, until you be endued with power from on high.

40:45

And then in upper room, they're baptized the Holy spirit. This is from my point of view to separate events separated by days actually.

40:54

And, uh, and actually separated by days and people. So there were people that were there when he said, received the

41:01

Holy spirit and then leaves that received the Holy spirit that didn't Terry in the upper room until they was endued with power.

41:09

So it is the assumption that the baptism of the Holy spirit is an endowment with power for the work of ministry.

41:16

Not as some might get mad at me for saying this so that you can run around and shout in your church service, but it is to, it is to empower ministry.

41:28

And that, that leads me to my, probably my last question on the subject of tongues. And that is the question of maybe how we might define them differently.

41:37

It seems to me that if, if tongues are defined as, um, and when

41:43

I use this phrase, this is not, this is, this is not an intent to diminish or, or, or, or, or be in any way insulting.

41:50

This is just a phrase that I have used. And that is the phrase ecstatic speech. And I don't know if that's a phrase it's offensive.

41:56

And if it is, I don't mean for it to be, but you understand what I mean by ecstatic speech. It's not ecstatic meaning it's, um, uh, something that comes out of you.

42:08

It's not necessarily thoughts, but it's just coming out and it's not based upon you formulating the words in your mouth.

42:15

So it's not something that you're, you know, when people supposedly speak in tongues and that I have seen, it doesn't seem like they're, they're creating words.

42:24

They're, they're simply speaking sounds. And I would say monosyllabic sounds, meaning they're, they're, they're not words like you would think of normal words.

42:33

Um, now I've, I've heard what you're talking about. And, uh, and this is where, uh, in some ways

42:39

I might be, I wouldn't say different because, uh, I'm, I'm not the only one that, that believes this nor am

42:48

I the only one who has seen this. Uh, but the times that I have spoken in tongues,

42:53

I repeated what I heard in my ears and then more or no less.

42:59

And, uh, I shared this on the podcast with the labors. Uh, I can remember most of the words that I said.

43:08

I will say that I don't have a, I don't have a good way of speaking another language.

43:16

I don't roll my R's very good. Whenever I try to speak another language,

43:21

I butcher the Spanish language whenever I'm reading it. And, uh, but in any case, make a long story really short.

43:27

I was on the mission field in, uh, Dominican Republic sitting outside of a church that we were helping lay brick for.

43:33

And I heard a lady inside the church praying and I thought she was praying and she was, she was praying.

43:39

And then I heard her break out into tongues. I knew it was tongues because I've heard those words come out of my mouth before.

43:46

And, uh, and when it just continued on and on, and then there was some language I didn't understand.

43:51

And it came back to that and it came and I said, what in the world is going on? So I got up and I went inside the church and what

43:58

I was witnessing was a conversation between two people and they weren't praying. They were talking.

44:03

And I asked my interpreter, I said, what is she saying? And he said, I don't know because I only speak Spanish. She's speaking a mixture of Spanish and Creole because she's

44:13

Haitian. And she was speaking to another lady that was from her village in Haiti that had moved to the

44:18

Dominican Republic. And she would explain to me later that what she was referring to, the word that I kept hearing over and over again was

44:25

Holy Spirit and their language. And, uh, and it blessed my soul more than I can put into words.

44:32

If I can be honest with you that, uh, that the words that I remember hearing in my ear were legitimate words and the people who were with me on that mountainside were with me when we were praying at the altar that day, and they remembered it as well.

44:49

Okay. So take that for what you will. I mean, just facts as best I understand them. That's, you know, no, that's fine.

44:55

And I appreciate you sharing that story because, because I do know that when, when, when, when I talk about tongues in our church and we discussed the subject, cause

45:04

I've preached through Acts and first Corinthians. And, uh, those are the only books that really mentioned tongues outside of, you know, possibly the ending of Mark, depending on how you understand what

45:13

Mark means there in Mark 16. But those would be the three times where it's mentioned specifically first Corinthians, uh, you know, 13 or 12, 13, 14 reference them.

45:22

And then of course, several times in the book of Acts and Acts is very, uh, uh, difficult in, in that it's, it's narrative.

45:30

So you're having to, it's not saying this is this, it's just saying, this is what happened. Therefore we have to interpret the scene based on what happened.

45:37

And the first thing we know, the first instance of tongues is speaking a language that other people heard in their own language and that, and, and so, uh, at least the first conversation was what we refer to as glossolalia, right.

45:49

Which is speaking a known language. Um, but there's three different, at least two different kinds of tongues that you read about, uh, that are unknown.

45:59

One of them was other, and one was unknown. And I've heard the argument, not that I know that I'd spent a lot of time on it, but I have heard the argument that there was other languages or other tongues spoken.

46:11

These would have been known to someone other than the speaker. And this would be what we would refer to as glossolalia or what we see in Acts 2.

46:20

And then there's unknown tongues, which some would assert that this is the tongues of angels that, uh, that Paul is referencing when he says, if I can speak with tongues, even those of angels, but have not love, uh, but sound and brass, ting, assemble.

46:32

So, uh, not that I would spend a lot of time arguing from that point of view, but that is one of the arguments that I have heard from inside of our denomination defending, uh, what'd you call that extemporous speech or, or, or spontaneous speaker.

46:47

Well, spontaneous would be another word, but ecstatic, ecstatic, extemporous. I added a word there.

46:53

I don't know what extemporous means. Well, extemporaneous would be to speak without notes or something like that to like, like when you preach, do you preach with notes?

47:00

That's another quick question. Do you preach with notes or do you preach with? I, I, I do at times, uh, I have notes.

47:07

Like if you were at the count at the conference, uh, I'd spent several, several attempts and had more than one sermon listed on my laptop for notes.

47:17

And I was more than prepared to take it up there. And then something brother Rob said to me that morning, he said to everybody that was in the, in the, that was listening to the sermon, at least, uh, it sort of, it sort of quickened my heart a little bit and that I had to check my motivation because, uh,

47:33

I mean, it's just man to man, whether you put this in the, in the stream or not. I'm an open book. I try to be an open book.

47:40

Uh, I don't want to look like an idiot. And I know that in, in that, in that room, I'm sitting among people who are much more learned than I, who spend more time in a higher education than I've had the ability to spend.

47:54

And, uh, and I know that I'm fighting outside of my weight class. That's just me being transparent with you, right?

48:03

Well, I, I, I, did I freeze? For a second. I thought you'd anyway. No, I just, no,

48:08

I didn't want to, I didn't want, I just want you to know, I certainly didn't never intended for anyone to feel that way.

48:14

No, no, no, no, no. It's nothing. You know, no one did a thing. No one made me feel that way.

48:20

And I don't take any, if I don't, I'm not offended at all or upset at all or not. I just, I recognize the room that I'm in when

48:26

I'm in it. And sure. And I'm, I'm sitting around, listening to people who, who know so much more than I do.

48:33

And, and I think, well, there's no way that I can formulate a sermon with these notes and it not look or even really be me just trying to, to put on big preacher print pants today and get up here and, and, and say something that might make a clip.

48:54

One of them nice little, whatever the things are called that I see all the time. Short clip.

48:59

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, I don't want to be the man that, that it's not that I'm not saying anybody there was doing this.

49:07

I'm telling you what my heart, what I felt in my heart. And I, I can't, I can't deny this for a moment.

49:13

I wanted to, I wanted to get up there and just preach the house down and that, you know, shame on me for that.

49:19

And so instead, right up before I got up there, I said, there's two portions of scripture that I want to read.

49:26

And I'm going to read these two portions of scripture and, and I'm going to do the very best I can to give them what

49:33

I've learned from them that I believe God has showed me through his text. And then

49:38

I'm going to step away from this pulpit. And if it never makes a clip, if it never makes a scene, then

49:43

I have to be content with the fact that, that God would be pleased with what I give these people. And that I haven't,

49:50

I haven't tried to use my personal experiences or lack thereof. I haven't also tried to use, you know, enticing words of man's wisdom or a demonstration of power.

50:01

This is what the word says and let the word change you and not let my opinion change you in it, or maybe the way that I conduct myself.

50:11

And, and so that's why at the conference, I used no notes. I did make one note about what brother

50:17

Tyler had said something. And truth be told, I couldn't even read my own handwriting because I wrote it on the back of my wife's fan she was using.

50:25

And I didn't have nothing to push against. And it was so sloppy that I actually wadded it up. I said, forget this.

50:31

If I keep trying to read this, I'm going to wind up tripping myself up. So that's why when I spoke, it was so, it was so short.

50:37

It was because of conviction that, uh, and, and you made a statement during the, uh, round table after it was over with that you've been to many conferences where that didn't happen and where people were disrespectful to the time and to those that are sitting listening.

50:56

And it really helped me out because I felt like that I was, I was actually doing what, what was laid on my heart to do.

51:03

And that somebody else in the room noticed that this is not about me. This isn't about the laborers.

51:10

This isn't even about reformata. This is about trying to do our very best to exalt

51:15

Christ above every person, place, and thing. And in order to do that, we have to decrease.

51:25

Amen. Amen. And you're right. I did. I, I've been to conferences where the whole conference had to be re, uh, the, the times had to be changed because a guy went half hour longer than he's supposed to because he felt like he was the most important person in the room.

51:37

And again, maybe, maybe I'm misjudging his character, but that, you know, when, when you, when you, when you're getting to an hour and a half and there's other, there's other things in the conference that, you know, you, you have a schedule that that's something to think about.

51:50

Yeah. Yeah. And, um, that's one thing if you don't got anybody after you, um, but, but, uh, but, but I've seen that before and it's very disrespectful.

52:00

Well, and I'm not saying that anybody who took their time and maybe even if they went over, I'm not saying that I feel like they did something wrong.

52:07

All I'm saying is that before I got up there, I was convicted about having put together the message that I had put together and the motivations for this message being put together the way it was.

52:18

And at least, at least in part was to try to impress men. And that, and that, I can't have that.

52:24

I can't have that in my, I can't have that as my motivation for getting up there and then look at people and say that this is something led of the

52:32

Holy spirit when that's, that's a ball face lie. And, and it, knowing that it was partially motivated because I wanted to not sound like me.

52:42

I wanted to sound like somebody else in that room. And we can't be that way as men of God, as men who lead our churches, we have to be a man of integrity and, and we have to, even if it makes us look stupid.

52:55

Right. And that's where, uh, I just, I'm not going to budge on that.

53:01

So conference was great. Everybody did a good job. I believe the Lord was worshiped. I believe the Lord was exalted.

53:06

I believe the church was edified. Amen. And I'm thankful for our time together. And for people who don't know this behind the scene, we have been having some technical issues on my side, had a bad storm in Jacksonville today.

53:16

So if there's a little cuts here and there that seem a little odd, that's why John, I want to ask you one more question about your statement of faith.

53:22

And then I'm going to do our fast five final questions. And, uh, and, and we'll, we'll roll out cause we've been having these issues, but the only other issue

53:29

I would say on that statement of faith, I'm sure there's some nuances here and there are things that we would disagree on, but the one thing is healing.

53:35

And that's the question of whether or not the healing that, that is promised to us in Christ is, is absolute.

53:40

And does everyone have the promise of divine healing physically? And so how do you see that?

53:47

So the, I believe that I may have breezed through it and maybe that caused the confusion for you.

53:55

It says that, uh, divine healing is provided for all in the atonement.

54:02

Okay. So in the atonement that's divine healing would be something that Isaiah 53 promises everyone.

54:11

Right. And that would be obviously, uh, at least singularly and probably primarily focused in salvation being considered divine healing and that regardless of whatever your physical plight, uh, all those in Christ, the moment that they pass away here, physically, they're renewed with a new body with Christ forever, where there will be no maladies or no sicknesses or no, no more suffering of any kind.

54:37

So divine healing is provided in all in a glorified body to those in Christ.

54:43

Then Matthew chapter eight is one of the verses that the church does cite. However, in talking about believing in supernatural healing, when it says in, uh, for the second time, 814,

54:55

Jesus came into Peter's home and he saw his mother -in -law lying sick in the bed of fever. He touched her hand, fever left her.

55:00

She got up and waited on him. When the evening came, they brought him many who were demon -possessed and he cast out the spirits with the word and healed all who were ill.

55:09

This was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet. He himself took away our infirmities and carried away our diseases.

55:15

So that's one of the scriptures that they cite for Christ being the fulfillment of what

55:21

Isaiah 53 is. And at least in part, uh, physical healings that are healed on this earth, uh, divinely healed are done through Christ and as a promise to Old Testament prophecy.

55:35

Gotcha. Gotcha. But you would, you would agree with me though, that if a, if a believer is, is suffering an illness and doesn't get healed and ends up dying, you wouldn't, you wouldn't call into question the integrity of their faith?

55:45

No, no, no, nobody, nobody intelligent would either. Uh, the fact of the matter is that we see in scripture where a brother

55:53

Paul, one who we all are most aligned with in terms of apostles because of our other than Jewish background, unless you're

56:01

Scandinavian, um, background, uh, leads in any way to. Yeah.

56:07

So in any case, uh, he was obviously, uh, plagued with a malady of some kind that a messenger of Satan was buffeting with.

56:15

And he asked God to remove it three times and God said, no. And he said, nevertheless, that grace is sufficient and glory in his infirmity.

56:24

He continued on to do the work of the Lord. So that I believe that scripturally speaking that God can heal if God chooses to heal.

56:34

And I believe God still heals when God chooses to heal. But I believe that this is completely left up to God and God alone.

56:40

And it's his desire and his choice to do whatever his good pleasure is. We pray, uh, for people to be healed.

56:47

And whenever that prayer is in alignment with God's will, and it is for the glory of God to do so,

56:53

God will do so, which has been, which has been consistent with scripture, at least as far as I can tell, both in old new

56:58

Testament, and I believe continues today as a continuationist. Uh, I don't see a, a, a hard line in scripture where these things ever ceased new

57:10

Testament or old Testament. And, uh, so I would adhere to the common sense way of approaching it is that if God doesn't heal you, it's because his grace is sufficient and his reasons for only his, they're his reasons and his alone.

57:23

And they're good enough because they're God's. And we, we trust his character and who he is. And that if he decides that my maladies, whatever they are, are to be with me for the rest of my time here on earth, then it's for my good for some reason or another, whether I see it or not.

57:37

Amen. And this is part, you know, that sentence you just said is part of the reason for this show is

57:43

I think when we actually talk to one another, we find much more commonalities and we do differences in, in things like that.

57:50

And, and, and again, I'm not trying to eliminate the differences or say they don't exist or say those, you know,

57:55

I'm, I think that we should recognize where they are, when they are, but at the same time, be willing to say,

58:00

Hey, you know what? I can affirm what you just said. And I can agree with that. And, uh, and, and, and I'm, I'm thankful to God for it.

58:07

So John, I want to finish up by giving you some, uh, some, something fun to remember me by. These are five questions.

58:13

They're not intended to be super spiritual or even that serious, but it's a good way to get to know you better and have a little fun right before we close out and in the show on a high note.

58:23

So I'm going to ask you five questions. These five questions are, uh, are, are, are not intended to be super serious, but here they go.

58:31

Number one, if you had the opportunity to have a Bible story made into a movie and it was not one that's already done.

58:37

So you can't choose crucifixion or David and Goliath or something. It's gotta be a Bible story that you think should make into a movie and you don't think they've ever done it.

58:44

What would it be? Hmm. Ezekiel. Okay. All right.

58:49

The whole book or just the whole book. You named me a crazier story than Ezekiel in the Bible. I'll wait.

58:55

Okay. Okay. Sounds good. All right. Uh, do you have a favorite podcast and why is it mine?

59:01

No, I'm just kidding. Outside of yours and mine. What's your favorite podcast? Oh man.

59:07

Uh, I'm, I'm really bad. I don't, I don't know that. Uh, man, a favorite podcast.

59:17

Good gracious. That's, that's really hard. I mean, uh, I'm not going to use any laborers on this one because I don't want to, uh, cause insurrection among the group.

59:27

Uh, let's say I actually like Ruslan. Okay. Do you know who he is?

59:34

I don't, but, but, uh, I'm sure somebody in the audience would say it again. The name Ruslan.

59:40

I mostly listened to it on YouTube. I don't know that his podcast isn't on Spotify, but I don't like Spotify and that because I can't,

59:47

I like YouTube and, uh, I use YouTube to watch. Ruslan is different in that he's charismatic and something that you might find funny.

59:56

He's post -millennial. Oh wow. Charismatic and post -millennial. That's, that's a, that's an interesting pair.

01:00:02

He's, he's an interesting cat. Do I agree with him on everything? Obviously not, but I like his perspective. So Ruslan.

01:00:09

All right. What's a, can you remember the best sermon you've ever heard and, uh, and why it was the best?

01:00:19

Best sermon I ever heard. It's about Jehoiakim and it's the first Chronicles chapter 17,

01:00:25

I want to think. And it absolutely floored me that somebody could take one of the most uninteresting books of scripture and show

01:00:37

Christ in it. It's still, when I think back on it, it still floors me.

01:00:43

Amen. All right. Best 80s television show, co -starring a vehicle.

01:00:51

Are you even kidding me? Dukes of Hazzard next. Okay. All right.

01:00:57

That's cool. Last guy I'd talked to said Airwolf and I didn't even think about it. Airwolf, that's a helicopter.

01:01:03

I mean, so I mean, yeah, you got that. It's a vehicle, it's a vehicle, but you, you got it. Uh, Dukes of Hazzard. Last, last one,

01:01:09

John, and I'm gonna let you go be with your family. Uh, if you had to buy a chicken sandwich right now and, and, and, and enjoy it, would you buy one from Chick -fil -A or Popeyes?

01:01:18

The Lord's chicken. That's not even a question worth considering. No pickles, spicy, no pickles.

01:01:25

Spicy. No. Well, I know what to take you, what to get you when I take you to lunch next time I see you. Well, John, I want to thank you for being a part of the program today and, and, and sharing with us about your church and the history of the, the, the, and I learned a lot.

01:01:37

So I'm sure our, our, our audience will too. So thank you for being with me, brother. Thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure to hear from you, brother

01:01:43

Keith. Absolutely. And I want to thank all of you for being a part of your

01:01:48

Calvinist podcast today. Please remember if you liked this show, hit the thumbs up button. And if you didn't like it, hit the thumbs down button twice.

01:01:54

Thank you again for listening to your Calvinist podcast. My name is Keith Foskey. And as always, I've been your

01:01:59

Calvinist. May God bless you. Sometimes I feel the weight of the world fall down on me and I need a friendly voice with some good theology.

01:02:16

So I mix a manly drink. Then I hit the

01:02:21

YouTube link and I feel my troubles all melt away.

01:02:29

Oh, it's your Calvinist podcast with Keith Foskey.

01:02:38

Beards and bow ties. Laughs till sunrise.

01:02:45

It's your Calvinist podcast with Keith Foskey. He's not like most

01:02:54

Calvinists. He's nice. Your Calvinist podcast with Keith Foskey, striving for superior theology and denominational unity, one joke at a time.